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View Full Version : Hamas has released a copy of the letter captured IDF soldier Gilad Shalit



Ninth_Scribe
06-25-2008, 07:42 PM



The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2008, 04:21 PM
bump.
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Güven
07-01-2008, 04:33 PM
Soo What Does It Say In There???
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MunirAhmadKamil
07-01-2008, 04:43 PM
Cool scribbles..what dus it mean?:)
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2008, 04:48 PM
Sorry, my bad.

----------------

Dear Mum and Dad, my dear family, I send to you my many homesick feelings. Two long hard years have passed for me since I left you and have been forced to live in prison conditions. I continue to suffer from health and emotional difficulties and depressions that exist in this kind of life. Like in my previous letters, I very much hope that your health and emotional situation has not been harmed since you began to live without me. I still continue to think and dream of the day when I will be released and meet you again, and I still have the hope that this day is close, although I know it is not dependent on me or on you. I turn to the government that it should not neglect the negotiations for my release, and it should aim its efforts only at releasing the soldiers in Lebanon.

Missing you,
Gilad
June 2008
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James1992
07-01-2008, 04:49 PM
Hope they have killed the zionist....
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The_Prince
07-01-2008, 04:52 PM
awww poor little gilad, more than 10,000 palestinians in zionist jails, taste how it feels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
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Güven
07-01-2008, 04:56 PM
well KILLL HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No Just Kiddin , now He will Taste How It feels Like The Palestinians and the Others
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2008, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
awww poor little gilad, more than 10,000 palestinians in zionist jails, taste how it feels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
So, what do you think? A five to 1 swap? You do realise he's just a boy... and Israel enforces a mandatory military service for them.

The Ninth Scribe
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Izyan
07-01-2008, 05:03 PM
you people disgust me. I would say a different pal prisoner will be executed daily til he was returned.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2008, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
you people disgust me. I would say a different pal prisoner will be executed daily til he was returned.
Oh, so you're suggesting the establishment of execution camps? How very Nazi. Nearly every country in the world has a prisoner exchange program, except the United States under Bush. Just back off and let me deal with this before you get EVERYONE killed.

The Ninth Scribe
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The_Prince
07-01-2008, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
So, what do you think? A five to 1 swap? You do realise he's just a boy... and Israel enforces a mandatory military service for them.

The Ninth Scribe
so what, many palestinian boys and GIRLS are being held by the zionists.
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The_Prince
07-01-2008, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
you people disgust me. I would say a different pal prisoner will be executed daily til he was returned.
...............................i thought its not your concern? now it is? make your mind up
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James1992
07-01-2008, 08:15 PM
He is just a puppet in the Zionist goverment....In Israel it is mandatory that you join the army you have no choice....
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Musaafirah
07-01-2008, 08:20 PM
How old is he?
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Fishman
07-01-2008, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
you people disgust me. I would say a different pal prisoner will be executed daily til he was returned.
:sl:
You call people disgusting for saying he should be killed, but then you post something involving even more executions? :?

format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
awww poor little gilad, more than 10,000 palestinians in zionist jails, taste how it feels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
For once, it seems, I do actually sort of agree with you here. For every Gilad there are probably hundreds of little Hamzahs and Aminas who feel the same if not worse. Israel can't complain about his captivity if they continue to hold so many Palestinian kids.
Although I do not agree with your number of exclamation marks used...
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Keltoi
07-01-2008, 08:50 PM
What good would it do to get involved in a prisoner exchange deal? Hamas or some other group will just kidnap another Israeli citizen and demand the release of more prisoners.
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James1992
07-01-2008, 08:51 PM
Hizbollah Did The Same...
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2008, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
so what, many palestinian boys and GIRLS are being held by the zionists.
If he were a voluntary soldier, I would be severe, but if he's been drafted, I would lean more toward the rule of Mercy. Those who are forced to fight are not good quality, unlike the Palestinians soldiers. Palestinians fight with zeal because they are motivated by a just cause, and they do it willingly, without payment. There is no need to force a Palestinian to fight or to bribe them to. They have no need of Mercy.

But this soldier... I expect his service was mandatory, which probably explains why he was caught. These are not REAL soldiers.

Why should I judge him as a soldier, when he isn't? Because the state dressed him up like one?

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2008, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
What good would it do to get involved in a prisoner exchange deal? Hamas or some other group will just kidnap another Israeli citizen and demand the release of more prisoners.
So what? It is a demonstration of how we VALUE our living. Nick Berg could have lived, you know. The only reason he's dead is because of Bush's arrogant pride! All they were asking for was the release of their women! How would that have changed the course of the **** war? How will any of the exchanges stop the military strikes... by either side? They don't. It's just being fair.

The Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
07-01-2008, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
So what? It is a demonstration of how we VALUE our living. Nick Berg could have lived, you know. The only reason he's dead is because of Bush's arrogant pride! All they were asking for was the release of their women! How would that have changed the course of the **** war? How will any of the exchanges stop the military strikes... by either side? They don't. It's just being fair.

The Ninth Scribe
Oh please. Usually your posts are amusing to me because they are so humorously delusional, so I just chuckle and move on.

However, I find it sickening that in your delusional mind you see fit to justify the barbaric murder of Nick Berg. We both know why he was killed, and it had nothing to do with the "release of their women". Making serial killer snuff films of people getting their heads sawed off on video tape was all the rage with your little pious Al-Qaeda crew. "God is Great!" remember? Let's see what justifications you have for Daniel Pearl, Kim Sung Ill, Patterson, and the others?

I'll tell you why they died. Because they were easy prey. They weren't soldiers, they didn't have a chance to fight back(expecially with their legs and hands tied) and your little hero Zarqawi got off on it. Spare me your ramblings about the value of human life.
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SixTen
07-02-2008, 01:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
So what? It is a demonstration of how we VALUE our living. Nick Berg could have lived, you know. The only reason he's dead is because of Bush's arrogant pride! All they were asking for was the release of their women! How would that have changed the course of the **** war? How will any of the exchanges stop the military strikes... by either side? They don't. It's just being fair.

The Ninth Scribe

Umm, since when does Bush not releasing prisoners, end up being Nick Bergs responsibility - and that his life can be taken for what you see as someone elses doing? Just me confused or? I would hate that I am prisoned and killed for something I had nothing to do with.
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Eeman
07-02-2008, 02:15 AM
I dont know what you guys are debating about.
what isreal and palestine are doing is WRONG!!!
and im not gonna stick up for palestine just cos they are muslims!!!
no innocent civilian be it old man or woman, a mother or a father, a young man or a young woman, a little girl or a little boy regardless of age, gender, or RELIGION deserves to be held captive and imprisoned cos the governments and extreme groups want their way!!!

What have these innocent people done to be their victims???
so as it goes for that poor little gilad or giad, and those 1000 animas and ahmads or whatever... THEY SHOULD BE FREED AND NOT USED AS WAR TOOLS!!! used by tyrants and oppressors (jew and muslims) to get what they want! a piece of materialistic land!

i sincerely pray that Allah swt makes these oppressers and tyrant stop and realise! and if not then i pray that He punishes these tyrants and oppressors for each and every soul they have caused discomfort, pain, harm or sadness to.

and for the poor innocent victims i pray that Allah swt bestows His mercy and grace upon them, guides their hearts to the truth and gives them Jannah as their final destination to abide therein forever.
INSHA'ALLAH!!!
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arabianprincess
07-02-2008, 03:01 AM
yes its true its not right ... but if u think about it ITS the only way... i mean u either DIE or fight back..... so wat ever the palestine got .. they shoot n they dont have grt weapons so they dont know like where exact where it would land...... n i dont blame em .. i blame alll the muslims in the world n the presidents. for sittin n watchin them gettin killed ... n actin as if its normal....... i wish everything would end ... butttt that wont happen if we r AWAy from the religion....... n if ur far away from religion n weak... god will punish u.. n send enemies...


but as they said once hes FREE... they would kill like 10 or more ppl for him... to get back at the pali ppl... which is sad ... but may allah help us all.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 04:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Oh please. Usually your posts are amusing to me because they are so humorously delusional, so I just chuckle and move on.

However, I find it sickening that in your delusional mind you see fit to justify the barbaric murder of Nick Berg. We both know why he was killed, and it had nothing to do with the "release of their women". Making serial killer snuff films of people getting their heads sawed off on video tape was all the rage with your little pious Al-Qaeda crew. "God is Great!" remember? Let's see what justifications you have for Daniel Pearl, Kim Sung Ill, Patterson, and the others?

I'll tell you why they died. Because they were easy prey. They weren't soldiers, they didn't have a chance to fight back(expecially with their legs and hands tied) and your little hero Zarqawi got off on it. Spare me your ramblings about the value of human life.
My delusional mind is more in tune with the circle of life than your stagnant, static, never yeilding, mind could ever hope to be. You NEVER examine life from any other perspective other than your own. You could NEVER admit you might have been wrong in any of your predictable thought processes. You refuse to even entertain the notion that there are different people out there in this world who have different views about the great and mighty America, and you luxuriate yourself from a safe distance, never risking an involvement ~ even if it might mean you could LEARN something. You have NOTHING to offer this discussion that is any different than your other discussions. It's always about what YOU feel, what YOU think, what YOU need. Well, this isn't about YOU. It's about two branches of an ancient family tree that are suffering, quite probably from WESTERN ideals and interference! I mean, let's face it... the United States has sold more weapons to all sides of the Middle East and has raked in huge profits from that... and please don't even bother trying to tell me that the trillions in weapons was to help these countries defend themselves from Al Qaeda. You don't need 1700 war planes and stealth bombers to take out a bunch of "thugs" ~ Bush's own words.

And apart from your distaste in the idea of prisoner swaps, sorry to disappoint you, but France, Afghanistan, Italy and Israel... strongly disagree with you. So does Nick Berg's father. Maybe when it's YOUR kid who's neck is on the line, you'll change your tune, though I doubt it.

Also, regarding the "snuff" films that were streamed on the internet, I believe the "official" government that Bush installed in Iraq, is equally as guilty of this. They streamed two highly inappropriate films over the internet. I have both, btw. If that is the best of the best in Iraq's government... you have a lot of nerve to bash Zarqawi.

Nice to do the same old song and dance with you, but it's become way too predictable and I have other member on this forum to learn from.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Umm, since when does Bush not releasing prisoners, end up being Nick Bergs responsibility - and that his life can be taken for what you see as someone elses doing? Just me confused or? I would hate that I am prisoned and killed for something I had nothing to do with.
It was an offer for a swap and Nick was not an "inncocent" by stander as Bush would like Americans to believe. He was connected with the Abu Ghraib prison, and this place was found to be a pathetic institution, though there was a reluctance to take the issue seriously until well AFTER proof was leaked on the internet. Zarqawi called it a place of satanic rituals, but he never attended an American college - and therefore wasn't very familiar with the practice of hazing, not that hazing isn't vile in it's nature to begin with. Also, though much later down the road, Jill Carroll wrote in her story, bashing the Mujahideen, that women weren't even allowed to join in the battle, which raises the question (at least in my mind), why were these women being held in Abu Ghraib?

Sometimes it takes years to get a full understanding of a given incident. Most people forget and drop the ball, but I'm a bit too curious about this to lose interest.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by arabianprincess
but as they said once hes FREE... they would kill like 10 or more ppl for him... to get back at the pali ppl... which is sad ... but may allah help us all.
I'm not convinced that, once he's free, he'd kill more Palestinians. I guess it would depend on what's he's learned. Sometimes in life, we take a fall and while it's an unpleasant experience, it gives us the chance to view life from an entirely different perspective. Also, you come to appreciate things you took for granted before. If he were released, I'm fairly sure he'd return to Israel with a message. That message depends entirely on what he's learned during his two years.

I do know that when the Shahid, Abu Saleh al Ajmi, was released from Guatanamo Bay, he immediately went to Iraq for his martyrdom. I expect that was directly related to what he had learned during his stay at Gitmo. But I have read encouraging reports from people who were imprisoned by Palestinians and Iraqis, that lead me to believe they were not tortured or abused by their captors ~ and I'm very interested in these types of reports, so I tend to encourage the release of prisoners when ever I can. It's not that I'm out to bash America, but if America has gone off the rails in terms of humanity and decency, I think that needs to be addressed and first person reports from people who were detained are the only real material I have to work with.

The Ninth Scribe
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The_Prince
07-02-2008, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
you people disgust me. I would say a different pal prisoner will be executed daily til he was returned.
notice the mind set of this apostate, he believes that up to 900 palis many of whom could be innocent to be killed a day just for the release of an ALIVE israeli! so 900 palestinians are worth the life of one Jew who isnt even dead, but alive! and then most of you Muslims go out of your way to actually defend the rights of people like izyan saying apostates have the right to this and that! then u wonder why ur so backwards! thanks to Allah i am not in the camp that says people like izyan deserve rights, know your enemies people.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
notice the mind set of this apostate, he believes that up to 900 palis many of whom could be innocent to be killed a day just for the release of an ALIVE israeli! so 900 palestinians are worth the life of one Jew who isnt even dead, but alive! and then most of you Muslims go out of your way to actually defend the rights of people like izyan saying apostates have the right to this and that! then u wonder why ur so backwards! thanks to Allah i am not in the camp that says people like izyan deserve rights, know your enemies people.
Well, this isn't Izyan's thread, and I didn't care for his solution either. I despise that mind-set about as much as I despise a country that forces civilians to fight the wars they start.

But ignore all this. My interest in the prisoner, Gilad Shalit, is based on the message he will return to Israel with. So far as I've counted, the prisoners that were released from Palestine and Iraq have never complained about being tortured or abused. I have six such reports and I'm going for a seventh. I plan to use these reports to fashion a complaint designed to expose U.S. policies. I won't be the one to present the finished product... there are judges and politicians here who are better for that. I'm just doing the ground work because I think it should come to light that the people the Bush administration have called "thugs" are more decent and humane than the U.S. has been.

The Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
07-02-2008, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
My delusional mind is more in tune with the circle of life than your stagnant, static, never yeilding, mind could ever hope to be. You NEVER examine life from any other perspective other than your own. You could NEVER admit you might have been wrong in any of your predictable thought processes. You refuse to even entertain the notion that there are different people out there in this world who have different views about the great and mighty America, and you luxuriate yourself from a safe distance, never risking an involvement ~ even if it might mean you could LEARN something. You have NOTHING to offer this discussion that is any different than your other discussions. It's always about what YOU feel, what YOU think, what YOU need. Well, this isn't about YOU. It's about two branches of an ancient family tree that are suffering, quite probably from WESTERN ideals and interference! I mean, let's face it... the United States has sold more weapons to all sides of the Middle East and has raked in huge profits from that... and please don't even bother trying to tell me that the trillions in weapons was to help these countries defend themselves from Al Qaeda. You don't need 1700 war planes and stealth bombers to take out a bunch of "thugs" ~ Bush's own words.

And apart from your distaste in the idea of prisoner swaps, sorry to disappoint you, but France, Afghanistan, Italy and Israel... strongly disagree with you. So does Nick Berg's father. Maybe when it's YOUR kid who's neck is on the line, you'll change your tune, though I doubt it.

Also, regarding the "snuff" films that were streamed on the internet, I believe the "official" government that Bush installed in Iraq, is equally as guilty of this. They streamed two highly inappropriate films over the internet. I have both, btw. If that is the best of the best in Iraq's government... you have a lot of nerve to bash Zarqawi.

Nice to do the same old song and dance with you, but it's become way too predictable and I have other member on this forum to learn from.

The Ninth Scribe
I have alot of nerve to bash Zarqawi? No, it doesn't take alot of nerve to bash anyone who saws people's heads off on videotape. It was actually quite easy...no nerves or anything. :rollseyes

As much as I would like to comment on that bulk of self-righteous drivel it would hijack the thread. Have fun in fantasy land.
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MunirAhmadKamil
07-02-2008, 07:13 PM
Assalamu alykum,

i hope that gilad dude is okay..if the captors treat him well and all that..when hes released..MAYBE he'll say good things about palestine. Wudnt dat be a good thing?

Just a thought..please dont flame me:P
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I have alot of nerve to bash Zarqawi? No, it doesn't take alot of nerve to bash anyone who saws people's heads off on videotape. :rollseyes
Ah, but you said NOTHING about the Iraqi government Bush is spending our tax dollars establishing. You've said NOTHING about all the U.S. attrocities that go on there either. You can whine all you want but I'm not buying your story. Amazing how one-sided you are - not that this has anything to do with Gilad Shalit. If the subject doesn't interest you, or you have NOTHING productive to say, why don't you back out?

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MunirAhmadKamil
Assalamu alykum,

i hope that gilad dude is okay..if the captors treat him well and all that..when hes released..MAYBE he'll say good things about palestine. Wudnt dat be a good thing?

Just a thought..please dont flame me:P
I have in my possession quite a number of statements made by people and reporters who were released from Palestine and Iraq. They have never said anything about being mistreated. On the contrary, one Italian reporter was treated just fine until she was released, then she was shot by U.S. soldiers. But to have this type of confirmation from a Jewish soldier (assuming it's even fair to call him that) - that would really being saying something!

For me, it would be the icing on the cake :)

The Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
07-02-2008, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Ah, but you said NOTHING about the Iraqi government Bush is spending our tax dollars establishing. You've said NOTHING about all the U.S. attrocities that go on there either. You can whine all you want but I'm not buying your story. Amazing how one-sided you are - not that this has anything to do with Gilad Shalit. If the subject doesn't interest you, or you have NOTHING productive to say, why don't you back out?

The Ninth Scribe
An atrocity is an atrocity. I don't justify them from any source. Using your idea of logic, I could easily justify any atrocity by making up some pointless request as the cause. The difference between my reasoning and yours is that I do not feel the need to justify any atrocity, there is no justification for serial killer style murders recorded for internet posterity, and there is no justification for what occurred at Abu Ghraib. See how easy that is? Most of those responsible for Abu Ghraib have been punished, and most of those responsible for the murder tapes are probably long past room temperature.

As for the Israeli, I do hope he is released unharmed. If not, it only hurts the Palestinian cause, not the Israelis.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2008, 09:44 PM
Keltoi,

You are so naive and so pompous, it's impossible to have a discussion with you - about anything. It's so easy for you to sit in your house and whine about why others are upset about losing theirs... and we're not discussing a loss by say, Katrina or the Midwest floods or the California wildfires. We're talking about a bunch of terrorists who came in - illegally - and stole their homes. Of course, you don't actually pay attention to records, like this:

January 19, 1946 Member of Jewish underground destroyed a power station and a portion of the Central Jerusalem prison by explosives. Two persons were killed by the police..

January 20, 1946 Jewish underground members launched an attack against the British-controlled Givat Olga Coast Guard Station located between Tel Aviv and Haifa. Ten persons were injured and one was killed. Captured papers indicated that the purpose of this raid was to take revenge on the British for their seizure of the refugee ship on January 18. British military authorities in Jerusalem questioned 3,000 Jews and held 148 in custody..

April 25, 1946 Jewish underground attacked a British military installation near Tel Aviv. This group which contained a number of young girls, had as its goal the capture of British weapons. British authorities rounded up 1,200 suspects..

July 28, 1946 The British Palestine Commander, Lt. General Sir Evelyn Barker, banned fraternization by British troops with Palestine Jews whom he stated "cannot be absolved of responsibility for terroristic acts....

It continues... on and on and on...

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ory/brits.html
So I get that you have a very simplistic view of it, or our country's role in it. But, to me, and to a ton of other people and nations... this is a big deal and it's nowhere near over and done with. If you have it all settled in your mind, you have no place in this discussion.

And I'll thank you to stop wandering off the subject of this thread. This kid is caught in the middle of all this stuff you consider to be so over and done with. Now we all know you don't care about the reasons behind a Jihad. But, your views won't change the course of the wars or the outrage those people feel. To the Palestinians you're just a happy little American who doesn't have a clue what it's like to be on the receiving end the stuff our government has actively dished out to others... and you don't want one. Point taken and duly noted, so there really isn't much else for you to say here.

The Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
07-02-2008, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Keltoi,

You are so naive and so pompous, it's impossible to have a discussion with you - about anything. It's so easy for you to sit in your house and whine about why others are upset about losing theirs... and we're not discussing a loss by say, Katrina or the Midwest floods or the California wildfires. We're talking about a bunch of terrorists who came in - illegally - and stole their homes. Of course, you don't actually pay attention to records, like this:



So I get that you have a very simplistic view of it, or our country's role in it. But, to me, and to a ton of other people and nations... this is a big deal and it's nowhere near over and done with. If you have it all settled in your mind, you have no place in this discussion.

And I'll thank you to stop wandering off the subject of this thread. This kid is caught in the middle of all this stuff you consider to be so over and done with. Now we all know you don't care about the reasons behind a Jihad. But, your views won't change the course of the wars or the outrage those people feel. To the Palestinians you're just a happy little American who doesn't have a clue what it's like to be on the receiving end the stuff our government has actively dished out to others... and you don't want one. Point taken and duly noted, so there really isn't much else for you to say here.

The Ninth Scribe
What exactly are you even talking about? Do you have a problem with sticking to your own points? You bring up something that occurred in 1946...okay, so what? What is your point? Yes, I get that you are a liberal lefty who hates the U.S. and portrays the enemies of the United States as pious little angels fighting for God and their precious lot of sand. That isn't hard to figure out.

As for the Palestinians and the kidnapped Israeli soldier, I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. Letting him go is the best solution for both sides, but particularly for the Palestinians. As for whether I have sympathy for the Palestinians, yes I do. That doesn't mean I think they are "in the right" or that Hamas are heroes. Nor do I think that Israel is "in the right" or that the IDF are heroes. It is a conflict. I have sympathy for any person caught in the middle, be they Israeli or Palestinian or the news guy from channel 10.

Personally, I think you are so caught up in representing your own "fan" mentality relating to these conflicts that you have no perspective at all.

Lastly, no I don't care about the reasons for "Jihad". It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what banner you unfurl, if you kill the citizens of another country you can be prepared for alot of "dishing out" in return. It works both ways. ...and the world keeps spinning. Repeat, rinse, recycle
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MKE Brother
07-03-2008, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Lastly, no I don't care about the reasons for "Jihad". It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what banner you unfurl, if you kill the citizens of another country you can be prepared for alot of "dishing out" in return. It works both ways. ...and the world keeps spinning. Repeat, rinse, recycle
In the 10 years from the last Gulf War precisely how many Iraqi citizens killed Americans prior to Bush deciding to "dish it out" to them?
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arabianprincess
07-03-2008, 02:54 AM
[QUOTE=Ninth_Scribe;968752]I'm not convinced that, once he's free, he'd kill more Palestinians. I guess it would depend on what's he's learned. Sometimes in life, we take a fall and while it's an unpleasant experience, it gives us the chance to view life from an entirely different perspective. Also, you come to appreciate things you took for granted before. If he were released, I'm fairly sure he'd return to Israel with a message. That message depends entirely on what he's learned during his two years.


actually i should have been more clear i meant the isreali goverment or there military to get back at the palestines for wat they have done .. to show they anit weak... n it happen before... so i was just sayin this wat they might do... i wasnt sayin that he personally would go n KILL.
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Eeman
07-03-2008, 04:29 AM
I cannot believe you guys are actually sitting here debating whos right and whos wrong!!!!!!!!!

for God's sake it is nothing but a piece of land!!! A worldy thing, is that land going to help the palestinian groups end up in jannah? or is it going to help the jew gov end up in jannah?
for both parties killing, torturing and causing so much pain and difficulties to innocent people and children?
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The_Prince
07-03-2008, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
I cannot believe you guys are actually sitting here debating whos right and whos wrong!!!!!!!!!

for God's sake it is nothing but a piece of land!!! A worldy thing, is that land going to help the palestinian groups end up in jannah? or is it going to help the jew gov end up in jannah?
for both parties killing, torturing and causing so much pain and difficulties to innocent people and children?
my sister, in Islam Muslims have a right to make Jihad for their land, and if they die for their land then they are martyrs:

Book 001, Number 0259:
Abu Huraira reported: A person came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, what do you think if a man comes to me in order to appropriate my possession? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Don't surrender your possession to him. He (the inquirer) said: If he fights me? He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: Then fight (with him). He (the inquirer) again said: What do you think if I am killed? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: You would be a martyr. He (the inquirer) said: What do you think of him (Messenger of Allah) If I kill him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: he would be in the Fire.

Sahih Muslim

so therefore what the Palestinians are doing, fighting and dying for their land is completly legit and is not a material war, it is Jihad and all their dead are martyrs fighting for their stolen land by the zionist flees.
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al Amaanah
07-03-2008, 03:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
the prisoners that were released from Palestine and Iraq have never complained about being tortured or abused.
say what? what about abu ghraib?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibXeo3plBhM

rahimahomollah
Reply

Fishman
07-03-2008, 04:12 PM
:sl:
The situation is a lot more complicated than simply 'Jews stole Muslim land!', or 'the Jews got there first!'.

The simplfied history of Israel:
  • First, Israel belonged to the Canaanites and various tribes. The Israelites were lead to freedom out of Egypt and conquered the land to form the Bronze age Israel.
  • Then, the Babylonians took over Israel and forced the Israelites into captivity, where a lot of Judaism's tenents were supposedly compiled.
  • The Jews endured the captivity until Cyrus the Great of Persia invaded Babylon and returned the Jews to Israel. They rebuilt the Temple there and thrived under Persian rule.
  • But eventually Persia was destroyed by Macedonia under Alexander the Great. Alexander's empire was short-lived, and broke into many independent states, the state of Israel included. Greek culture spread around the Middle East and Israel too was Helenized.
  • Israel was then conquered by the Romans who made it part of their Empire. The Jews tried to revolt, but the revolt was crushed and Jerusalem was sacked. The Temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered across the region. Israel became a Roman area, and was later Christianised when Rome converted to Christianity.
  • After the long Roman reign, the Arabs invaded and conquered the Roman provinces of the Middle east. Islam began to spread, first slowly under the Umayyads but then rapidly by the time of the Abbasids.
  • The Arabs began to loose their strength and break up, and Israel was taken for a short time by Crusaders. The Ayyubid Arabs (Saladin's empire) tool Israel back, but the strength of the Arabs was spent as the Mongols and Turks took over the Middle East.
  • After the Ottomans had united the Turks, they began to expand and took over Israel from the Arab Sultanates. Israel stayed under Ottoman rule until WWI, when the Treaty of Sevres broke up the Ottoman Empire.
  • When the Ottoman Empire broke up, Britain took control of Israel and Jordan. Zionist immigrants who had been calling for independence and Arabs who wanted to stop them from coming in began to commit terrorist attacks against each other and the British rule.
  • Britian initially tried to resist these attacks, but after WWII they were too weak. The persecutions of Jews by they Nazis strengthed Zionist arguments that Jews should have an independent state too, so in 1948 the UN declared the independence of Israel. The Arabs attacked Israel straight away, but Israel defeated them and remained independent to repell several more Arab attacks and take over the West Bank and Gaza.
So, the rulers of Israel have been:
Canaanites
Israelites
Babylonians
Persians
Greeks
Helenized Jews
Romans (inc. Byzantines)
Arabs (various dynasties/Sultanates)
Crusaders
Ottomans
British
Israel
Jordan (West Bank only)

That's 13 different states. And since the original owners, the Caanites, don't really exist anymore, it makes it very hard to just say 'so-and-so stole it from us', for both the Jewish and Arab sides.
:w:
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James1992
07-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Ottomans ruled Syria aswell....
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by al Amaanah
say what? what about abu ghraib?

rahimahomollah
I was talking about American prisoners, sister. I know how the Iraqis and Palestinians are mistreated and abused. But the hostages that were freed by the Mujahideen were not abused. They weren't given five star accommodations, but they weren't raped or beaten either.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....
I came to a Muslim forum to learn how Muslims feel about particular issues. If I wanted to learn the Republican perspective, I'd be at a Republican forum. Now you've said your peace here, over and over again, like a broken record. Kindly allow some of the Muslims to speak for a change.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
my sister, in Islam Muslims have a right to make Jihad for their land, and if they die for their land then they are martyrs:

Book 001, Number 0259:
Abu Huraira reported: A person came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, what do you think if a man comes to me in order to appropriate my possession? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Don't surrender your possession to him. He (the inquirer) said: If he fights me? He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: Then fight (with him). He (the inquirer) again said: What do you think if I am killed? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: You would be a martyr. He (the inquirer) said: What do you think of him (Messenger of Allah) If I kill him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: he would be in the Fire.

Sahih Muslim

so therefore what the Palestinians are doing, fighting and dying for their land is completly legit and is not a material war, it is Jihad and all their dead are martyrs fighting for their stolen land by the zionist flees.
Well done! Actually, this is written into the law books of every land. In Texas, if someone tries to break into your house or they threaten you on your property, you have the right to kill them. No harm, no foul. Everyone has the right to defend themselves... no mater where they live.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

James1992
07-03-2008, 05:56 PM
I went to Texas and i thought some people there were racist...
Reply

Fishman
07-03-2008, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by James1992
Ottomans ruled Syria aswell....
:sl:
Yes, but Syria has a different history to Israel.
:w:
Reply

James1992
07-03-2008, 06:03 PM
Syria is good Israel well??????
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Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by James1992
I went to Texas and i thought some people there were racist...
Well, they're very back-woods and places that offer little cultural diversity wind up getting set in their own ways. There are lots of these little nooks and crannies in America where things hardly ever change.

The Ninth Scribe
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James1992
07-03-2008, 06:08 PM
Taht will probabley be a minority though..
Reply

Keltoi
07-03-2008, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I came to a Muslim forum to learn how Muslims feel about particular issues. If I wanted to learn the Republican perspective, I'd be at a Republican forum. Now you've said your peace here, over and over again, like a broken record. Kindly allow some of the Muslims to speak for a change.

The Ninth Scribe
How was I stopping anyone from posting anything? Also, my perspective is my perspective, I don't get talking points from anyone or anything.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-03-2008, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Well done! Actually, this is written into the law books of every land. In Texas, if someone tries to break into your house or they threaten you on your property, you have the right to kill them. No harm, no foul. Everyone has the right to defend themselves... no mater where they live.

The Ninth Scribe
Most people the Palestinian resistence manages to kill are innocent civilians who didn't choose where they live and probably cannot get a proper picture of who took the land from whom, god knows what the zionist entity educational system feeds them with..
Reply

Keltoi
07-03-2008, 06:22 PM
Personally I don't see what good it does to even debate who threw the first punch. The focus should be on stopping the conflict. Just when it appears some strides have been made in the direction of peace there is another incident that blows the whole thing up.

I sort of like the idea of a neutral Jerusalem as a capital city for all people of the Abrahamic faiths. Not that this will stop all the violence, but it might lead to easier negotations on future peace deals. It seems the two largest hurdles are the fate of who "owns" Jerusalem and the right of return for Palestinian refugees. At least one of them can be dealt with.
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reasonableph8th
07-03-2008, 06:24 PM
Wow... just when I thought my investigation into Islam was wielding some fruit, I see this. **sigh** The book I'm reading (The Religion of Truth) written by Saudi Muslims say that a prisoner of war must be treated kindly... unfortunately, it doesn't reference the Quran or Hadith, but is the book wrong?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by arabianprincess
actually i should have been more clear i meant the isreali goverment or there military to get back at the palestines for wat they have done .. to show they anit weak... n it happen before... so i was just sayin this wat they might do... i wasnt sayin that he personally would go n KILL.
If memory serves, the Palestinians have shown their metal, and they aren't going anywhere! They've stood up to the elite of the Israeli army and air force, and they've never once backed down. But that's the battle. I'd like to see them gain the global spot light for a change and I see this situation as a perfect opportunity... if it's played right. I mean, seriously. Israel is forcing the non-religious Jews into battle (kind of explains why the Iraqi Jews ignored the call of the Israeli government to return). They're not real soldiers. They're "property" of the state, who dresses them up like soldiers to fight their battles for them. Why? Because they can't get enough to enlist voluntarily! There are eight year old boys in Palestine who are REAL soldiers, like the one who just released a video, declaring that he will fight in his father's place! That's a REAL soldier. Gilad ~ he's just a pawn, sent in to walk point.

Heck, if I were fishing for dinner, I'd throw him back. :)

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most people the Palestinian resistence manages to kill are innocent civilians who didn't choose where they live and probably cannot get a proper picture of who took the land from whom, god knows what the zionist entity educational system feeds them with..
You know, that's an excellent point. If Israel invokes mandatory military service for all their non-religious entities, they may be using the rest as nothing more than place holders.

You know, quite a lot of Jews lived there before. One family is of the lineage of the high priests ~ their family have lived there since the days of the second Temple, and have remained there, regardless of who was in charge of it. They just didn't care about who ran the government. Another local product wrote to me, saying: "Do you know, my mother is so religious, she refuses to recognize the state of Israel?"

I wanted to know more about that, why Judaism would prevent a Jew from recognizing that state, and I can tell you, there are a buffet of reasons! Add to this, the fact that many of the Iraqi Jews, ignored the call of Israel. They wanted no part of it, maybe for the same reason? But they defied Israel's "Operation Ezra and Nehemiah" and chose to stay in Iraq.

Earlier on in this forum, I wrote once that maybe the remnants of the tribes of Israel, who remain in other lands, don't want "to give up their peaceful existence to come to a state they didn't create, to fight in a war they didn't start."

I'll have to think about that. I'm sure the Israeli educational system is also feeding the children with all kinds of promises too, but then again, every country does that when it's all state-owned.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-03-2008, 07:12 PM
Actually, I just wanted to know whether you consider a Palestinian who blows up a bus full of innocent civilians a martyr?
this goes for The Prince too!
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by reasonableph8th
Wow... just when I thought my investigation into Islam was wielding some fruit, I see this. **sigh** The book I'm reading (The Religion of Truth) written by Saudi Muslims say that a prisoner of war must be treated kindly... unfortunately, it doesn't reference the Quran or Hadith, but is the book wrong?
I believe you're right, but The Prince should answer us with the details. He's much more knowledgable about these matters. Gilad Shalit is alive, has been for two years, so that's saying something. He may be depressed, but that's par for the course in that situation. I also have reports from others who were held by the Mujahideen and their stories support the idea that prisoners are not mistreated, at least not by them. One german claimed they had to mess up her hair and smudge her eye make up so she would look like she was being mistreated... and she was smiling when she told that part of her story.

They may be bad-ss, but they have greatness of heart.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Actually, I just wanted to know whether you consider a Palestinian who blows up a bus full of innocent civilians a martyr?
this goes for The Prince too!
I'm a bit too fuzzy on the whole "martyrdom" subject. I'm not hot on the idea myself but if it's been written into Islam, I can't tell these people they're wrong. As things stand, there is a dispute between the scholars concerning the subject, and until every last one of them agrees (one way or the other), it's not legal or illegal. On a personal note, I just bid farewell to Abu Omar al Kuwaiti ~ I wasn't exactly pleased. I hate to see these people leave. But, maybe I'm just being selfish. Also, I'm not clear on the stand about civilians. They way it's presented, if we kill their innocents, they will most certainly kill ours. The chapter and verse of it ~ that's for The Prince. But they do, on certain occassions, offer a Mercy.



The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
PI sort of like the idea of a neutral Jerusalem as a capital city for all people of the Abrahamic faiths.
OMG! We actually AGREE on something -:D

I have studied this situation six ways to sunset and all I could come up with was this:

The Caliph Omar declared Palestine Waqf ~ a religious endowment so no one but Allah actually "owns" it. This endowment included the Jews and the Christians, every family branch was charged with the keeping of their own areas of religious interest. The only reason, as far as I can tell, for all this bitterness is because the three family branches are fighting over "ownership" and why on Earth would Allah support any such claim, if the land was given to Him? The Palestinians defied the decree of the Caliph by claiming the land belonged to them. The Jews defied the Torah by taking lands that were beyond their rightful inheritence and the Christians... I'm not sure what they did, but I believe the "guilt" is shared.

So, I would like to see the religious leadership (the new Pope, the Muslims and the Council of Rabbis) ask the U.N. to officially designate the land a Holy Land, to be run by the religious authorities. Since they all fight over taxation, none of them will pay it. They will each be supported by a religious contribution obtained by the people of their faiths, globally. The only non-religious people who should live there are those deemed necessary for employment (farmers, cleaners, gardeners, office staff, cooks, etc). I have the whole thing mapped out. Even the issue of the Temple mount. Actually, Allah fixed this problem himself when he gave them each different holy days. The only obsticle? The secular communities who don't care that it's a holy land.

I'll probably never get my way on this, but I figured it's worth a shot. I can rest in peace knowing that at least I tried.

The Ninth Scribe
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reasonableph8th
07-03-2008, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I believe you're right, but The Prince should answer us with the details. He's much more knowledgable about these matters. Gilad Shalit is alive, has been for two years, so that's saying something. He may be depressed, but that's par for the course in that situation...
The Ninth Scribe
I can appreciate that, and you may be right... he may be treated well in there. But my point wasn't so much Hamas' attitude or deeds, but ours. Should we be wishing ill on this man when (it appears) Allah commanded that we treat prisoners of war kindly? It is taught in the gospels and the Torah that sin is also sin of the heart and our attitudes are judged the same as deeds before God (Matthew 5:22, Leviticus 19:17). How then should we think in our hearts? Doesm't Allah judge everything said and thought?


BTW, I'm not just trying to cause a stir, but to invoke thought and gain your opinions on this matter.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-03-2008, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by reasonableph8th
I can appreciate that, and you may be right... he may be treated well in there. But my point wasn't so much Hamas' attitude or deeds, but ours. Should we be wishing ill on this man when (it appears) Allah commanded that we treat prisoners of war kindly? It is taught in the gospels and the Torah that sin is also sin of the heart and our attitudes are judged the same as deeds before God (Matthew 5:22, Leviticus 19:17). How then should we think in our hearts? Doesm't Allah judge everything said and thought?

BTW, I'm not just trying to cause a stir, but to invoke thought and gain your opinions on this matter.
I don't think any one here is "wishing" ill on Gilad. They just didn't pity him, saying: Now he knows how it feels. I suppose it's asking a lot to expect either side to have empathy for the other right now. But, the Mujahideen have kept him alive, they've fed him and they've washed his clothes. I expect they've tended him because they're interested in an exchange. They have brothers and sons in Israeli prisons too. So I have faith that this can work itself out.

As I said earlier, I don't actually consider a person who was forced into the military to be a real soldier. I said, if I were fishing for dinner I'd throw him back, but it occurs to me now, he's not even a little fish. He's more like the little worm on the big fishing hook.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
07-07-2008, 09:36 PM
Update on the news of Gilad Shalit for July 7, 2008 ~

Hamas denied reports on Sunday that the negotiations over the release of captured Israeli occupation soldier Gilad Shalit have stalled.

The deputy head of the Hamas politburo, Moussa Abu Marzouk, said that the reports are incorrect and talks on the matter of a prisoner exchange will be carried out in secret, away from the media.

In an interview to Al-Shams Radio in Naseriya, Abu Marzouk said that both sides, Israel and Hamas, are interested in achieving progress on the prisoner swap.

The Shalit case will be handled away from the eyes of the media and journalists - this was the agreement on this matter.

Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=137755
The Ninth Scribe
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north_malaysian
07-08-2008, 03:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe



The Ninth Scribe
Translation please... maybe he's writing that he joined Hamas...who knows...

snakelegs...pls translate this letter... toda!
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Ninth_Scribe
07-08-2008, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Translation please... maybe he's writing that he joined Hamas...who knows...

snakelegs...pls translate this letter... toda!
The translation, the best I could find online, is on the first page of this thread. He has not joined Hamas, he was just writing his parents to say he was ok, all things considered.

We should just give the two sides their privacy so some of these Palestinian and Israeli boys can finally go home.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

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