Female honey bee? Arabic word?

[kay106]

Salam,

This has been troubling me a lot lately.

Can someone please explain to me that on verse 16:68,69. The worker bee is refered to a female bee, can someone please explain to me how? someone has told me that kulli and fasluki is a femanine gender, can someone please explain to me how? is there any book on this type of grammer.

Thanks

[------]

:salamext:

This explains the verse, although it might not be what you are looking for.

In the Bee and its Honey there is Blessing and a Lesson

[SixTen]

I always saw it as how language is for certain words - like how in french you have feminine and masculine words - i.e. la table, le crayon etc?

[kay106]

Salam,

This has been troubling me a lot lately.

Can someone please explain to me that on verse 16:68,69. The worker bee is refered to a female bee, can someone please explain to me how? someone has told me that kulli and fasluki is a femanine gender, can someone please explain to me how? is there any book on this type of grammer.

Thanks

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[------]

:wasalamex

http://www.islamicboard.com/arabic/1...abic-word.html

Thread merged?

[Muezzin]

Jazakallah, Serene.

Threads merged.

[kay106]

Thanks for all your support guys. Alahamdullilah I think I have found the answer.

Performed the Asr Salah, made some dua, picked up a random tafsir, where it was talking about butuniha, two pages later, it was talking about the verses 16:68,69, then noticed that Butuniha, i have seen on the medina university arabic books, that something with a HA is female. So Butuniha is female, then noticed that the verse says
"From their bellies", when you read the complete verse:

16:68] And your Lord inspired the bee: build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you.

[16:69] Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.


So this is saying that the bees who eats from all the fruits, they are the ones who produces honey in their belly. The belly is a femanine gender, I am sure it is, do correct me where I go wrong.

[kay106]

111

[Faye]

Performed the Asr Salah, made some dua, picked up a random tafsir, where it was talking about butuniha, two pages later, it was talking about the verses 16:68,69, then noticed that Butuniha, i have seen on the medina university arabic books, that something with a HA is female. So Butuniha is female, then noticed that the verse says
"From their bellies", when you read the complete verse:

16:68] And your Lord inspired the bee: build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you.

[16:69] Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.


So this is saying that the bees who eats from all the fruits, they are the ones who produces honey in their belly. The belly is a femanine gender, I am sure it is, do correct me where I go wrong.

Actually belly is Batn (masculine gender). Botoon is the plural. Botooniha means 'their bellies.'

In Arabic, the plural form of any noun which is not intelligent, (Animals count as non-intelligent. So do bellies:smile:) is usually treated as a singular feminine noun. There are exceptions, even in the Quran but this is the general rule.

You may have noticed that botooniha is translated as 'their bellies' while the 'ha' at the end of botooniha is also of the singular feminine form. Technically, this could also be translated as 'her bellies', but
a, that doesn't make sense and
b, you can tell from the context that it refers to the species of bees as a whole and not to one female bee.

[Faye]

Salam,

This has been troubling me a lot lately.

Can someone please explain to me that on verse 16:68,69. The worker bee is refered to a female bee, can someone please explain to me how? someone has told me that kulli and fasluki is a femanine gender, can someone please explain to me how? is there any book on this type of grammer.

Thanks

An-Nahl is 'Ism ul-Jins' or 'species name'. It can be used to give both singular and plural meaning. (Sort of like 'sheep' in English being used both for plural and singular) The use of kulli, fasluki and other singular feminine forms shows that it is being used in the plural meaning, as singular feminine form is used for plurals of non-intelligent nouns.

I hope somebody understood this. Grammar is tricky, confusing and difficult to explain.

[kay106]

So is it female bees or not?
Also nahli, on the start of the verse is that masculine or femanine?

[Faye]

So is it female bees or not?

Its plural = bees, no attached gender in meaning, though every noun has a gender according to conjugation in Arabic.

Also nahli, on the start of the verse is that masculine or feminine?

It is masculine according to conjugation, but plural, no attached gender in meaning.

What this means is that the bees are NOT feminine.

[kay106]

so butuniha is correctly translated as "their female bellies" according to context?

Are you saying that the bees are not female, the ones that build the cells, gather food, and produce honey?

[Faye]

so butuniha is correctly translated as "their female bellies" according to context?

Are you saying that the bees are not female, the ones that build the cells, gather food, and produce honey?

a, the bees are not female.
b, the butun aren't female either.

The correct translation according to context is 'their bellies'. Your translation is absolutely correct.

What you are confusing is the ha. Butooniha is written like this :
ﺑﻂﻮﻨﻫﺎ
This 'ha' at the end, is a pronoun, singular feminine in form but translating to plural (them). This pronoun coupled with the previous noun (bellies) indicates possession. So, butoon = bellies, ha = their, butooniha = their bellies.

You are confusing this type of ha with the other type which feminizes a noun. That one occurs in writing in these four forms
ة ه ﻪ ﺔ
It is usually referred to as the Taa Marboota

A noun like Nahl is masculine. Adding a Taa marboota at the end (Nahlah) makes it feminine.
ﻨﺤﻞ
Nahl means male bee
ﻨﺤﻟﺔ
Nahlah means female bee

Like I said, grammar is confusing and large doses can be hazardous to mental health. If you don't get it, don't worry. This isn't really beginner level grammar.

[kay106]

a, the bees are not female.
b, the butun aren't female either.

The correct translation according to context is 'their bellies'. Your translation is absolutely correct.

What you are confusing is the ha. Butooniha is written like this :
ﺑﻂﻮﻨﻫﺎ
This 'ha' at the end, is a pronoun, singular feminine in form but translating to plural (them). This pronoun coupled with the previous noun (bellies) indicates possession. So, butoon = bellies, ha = their, butooniha = their bellies.

You are confusing this type of ha with the other type which feminizes a noun. That one occurs in writing in these four forms
ة ه ﻪ ﺔ
It is usually referred to as the Taa Marboota

A noun like Nahl is masculine. Adding a Taa marboota at the end (Nahlah) makes it feminine.
ﻨﺤﻞ
Nahl means male bee
ﻨﺤﻟﺔ
Nahlah means female bee

Like I said, grammar is confusing and large doses can be hazardous to mental health. If you don't get it, don't worry. This isn't really beginner level grammar.

So are you saying that the claim of scientific miracle that the bees are female is made up?

[kay106]

I have just read a book on basic Quranic grammer written by Jamal-Un-Nisa Bint Rafai,

He says "the common gender of those nouns whichare either masculine or feminine are, e.g. (sahabuun (clouds), (dahabuun(Gold)),.....(Nahl(bees)) ...... these are masculine by form feminine by signification."

[Faye]

So are you saying that the claim of scientific miracle that the bees are female is made up?

Yes. It doesn't make sense if you translate it for singular female. See if you do this:

16:68] And your Lord inspired the [female] bee: build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you.

[16:69] Then eat [oh female bee] from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their [her] bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.

Does a bee have more than one stomach? If it does, I'll admit the miracle, but if it doesn't then no.

[Faye]

I have just read a book on basic Quranic grammer written by Jamal-Un-Nisa Bint Rafai,

He says "the common gender of those nouns whichare either masculine or feminine are, e.g. (sahabuun (clouds), (dahabuun(Gold)),.....(Nahl(bees)) ...... these are masculine by form feminine by signification."

Actually, I didn't know Nahl was one of these(But if it is, it has to be translated as bee, not bees.), or Dhahabun, for that matter. (See, I'm still a student myself). I may have to rethink my position on this, but the bellies thing still doesn't make sense, while with bees (plural) it all works out.

[Whatsthepoint]

If Nahl is a singular feminine bee, how do you call a singular masculine bee then?

[Faye]

If Nahl is a singular feminine bee, how do you call a singular masculine bee then?

To the best of my knowledge, nahl is used for the singular male.

An-Nahl is 'Ism ul-Jins' or 'species name'. It can be used to give both singular and plural meaning. (Sort of like 'sheep' in English being used both for plural and singular) The use of kulli, fasluki and other singular feminine forms shows that it is being used in the plural meaning, as singular feminine form is used for plurals of non-intelligent nouns.

My opinion is that nahl cannot be used for singular female, or if so, definitely not in this context.

Here, Nahl is being used for plural and as it referrs to a non-intelligent group (animals), the singular feminine form is used in conjugation in the words kulee, faslukee and botooniha.

16:68] And your Lord inspired the bee/s: build homes, oh you bees in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you.

[16:69] Then eat, oh you bees from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.

See, no significant change occurs.

[kay106]

To the best of my knowledge, nahl is used for the singular male.



My opinion is that nahl cannot be used for singular female, or if so, definitely not in this context.

Here, Nahl is being used for plural and as it referrs to a non-intelligent group (animals), the singular feminine form is used in conjugation in the words kulee, faslukee and botooniha.



See, no significant change occurs.

So because of the conjugation of the feminine words, thats what makes it femanine?

[Whatsthepoint]

So because of the conjugation of the feminine words, thats what makes it femanine?

She made it quite clear why feminine singular is used.

[kay106]

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=17 - Quite an interesting article,

"The honeybee has a body that varies in length between 1cm and 3cm, and that is divided into three parts: head, thorax and abdomen. The verse quoted above stresses that in the individual female bee there are “abdomens,” which in Arabic is “butuniha,” the “ha” referring to a singular female bee. If the plural of the word “abdomen” was meant to refer to the female bees, then the plural female pronoun “hunna” would be attached to the verb “butuniha.” This makes clear the segmented abdomen of the bee. Inside the abdomen there are two stomachs or crops. When collecting the nectar from flowers, nectar is stored in this honey stomach for transport back to the hive. At the rear of the honey stomach is a valve that prevents stored nectar from passing on into the rear portion of the digestive system, except for the small amount needed by the bee to sustain life. The hind portion of the bee’s body is the abdomen that is made up of segments in the form of rings. The abdomen of the bee functions as a chemistry laboratory to produce honey. "

My question is that is butoon, dual in arabic and not plural. because when it is plural in arabic, it means more than three and in english it means more than once, but dual means two.

so is butoon dual?

[Whatsthepoint]

If the plural of the word “abdomen” was meant to refer to the female bees, then the plural female pronoun “hunna” would be attached to the verb “butuniha.”

I thought butooniha was a noun..

[Faye]

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=17 - Quite an interesting article,

"The honeybee has a body that varies in length between 1cm and 3cm, and that is divided into three parts: head, thorax and abdomen. The verse quoted above stresses that in the individual female bee there are “abdomens,” which in Arabic is “butuniha,” the “ha” referring to a singular female bee. If the plural of the word “abdomen” was meant to refer to the female bees, then the plural female pronoun “hunna” would be attached to the verb “butuniha.”

The plural female pronoun (hunna) is not used because it refers to a non-intelligent plural noun, for which, in most cases (there are exceptions), the singular female pronouns (ha, and hiya) as well as the singular feminine verb forms are used.

I have posted this grammar rule before, and you can look at my previous posts in this thread, or, if you don't trust me, ask another knowledgeable source you trust. I am getting tired of this same old argument.

This makes clear the segmented abdomen of the bee. Inside the abdomen there are two stomachs or crops. When collecting the nectar from flowers, nectar is stored in this honey stomach for transport back to the hive. At the rear of the honey stomach is a valve that prevents stored nectar from passing on into the rear portion of the digestive system, except for the small amount needed by the bee to sustain life. The hind portion of the bee’s body is the abdomen that is made up of segments in the form of rings. The abdomen of the bee functions as a chemistry laboratory to produce honey. "

Cool ... fun ... very interesting.

My question is that is butoon, dual in arabic and not plural. because when it is plural in arabic, it means more than three and in english it means more than once, but dual means two.

so is butoon dual?

No butoon is not dual. Dual form would be 'batnan'. So I don't have to eat my words yet.:D

[Faye]

I thought butooniha was a noun..

Butoon is a noun. Ha is an attached pronoun, indicating possession. Sort of like, mine, theirs and hers in English. Butoon means bellies, ha means either hers, or theirs (for non-intelligent nouns).

An example of the use is:

kitabo zaynab wa Qalamo-ha
means: Zaynab's book, and her pen
or Zainab's book and pen

Abwaabo al-boyooti, wa nawafizo-ha
means: the doors of the houses, and their (the house's) windows
or the doors and windows of the houses.

The point of the discussion is that kay106 claims that 'ha' here is in the meaning of hers, and I claim that in this context it means theirs.

[Faye]

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=17 - Quite an interesting article

I did check out the site you posted. It appears to be trying to create miracles where none exist, by, what appears to me to be shoddy reasoning and deliberate mistranslations and overlooking of pertinent information (just my opinion :D) . Is Quran itself not miracle enough for them? Must there be intricate secret numerical codes behind everything?

The closest thing I saw to this was in a jewwish book, 'The Chosen', by Chaim Potok. They did this sort of reasoning as a game to sharpen their wits, but even they knew better than to trust the results of deliberate bending of sacred texts to give the meaning they desired.

[kay106]

I did check out the site you posted. It appears to be trying to create miracles where none exist, by, what appears to me to be shoddy reasoning and deliberate mistranslations and overlooking of pertinent information (just my opinion :D) . Is Quran itself not miracle enough for them? Must there be intricate secret numerical codes behind everything?

The closest thing I saw to this was in a jewwish book, 'The Chosen', by Chaim Potok. They did this sort of reasoning as a game to sharpen their wits, but even they knew better than to trust the results of deliberate bending of sacred texts to give the meaning they desired.

Are they bending the text by saying that the worker bee is female, when it is actually male, too? please expose them.

[Faye]

Are they bending the text by saying that the worker bee is female, when it is actually male, too? please expose them.

It is not actually male, nor is it actually female. It is like the word 'horse' in English, an 'it'. You don't say she is a horse, or he is a horse, unless it is a particular horse with known gender. You say it is a horse. That's how the text tranlates.

Tell me how to expose them and I will.

[kay106]

It is not actually male, nor is it actually female. It is like the word 'horse' in English, an 'it'. You don't say she is a horse, or he is a horse, unless it is a particular horse with known gender. You say it is a horse. That's how the text tranlates.

Tell me how to expose them and I will.

So worker bee is not mentioned as a male or female, instead the word nahl at the beginning is actually masculine by form, but it is one of those terms which is neither masculine nor femanine. there are no words to indicate that the worker bee is female. I hope u understand what i mean by worker bee.

thanks for all you help, i knew it was a fake miracle. people are claiming that the bees who are building the hives, eating from flowers, in other words the worker bees in the Quran are female, but in fact it actually has no gender specified. please correct me where i go wrong. Can you please clarify again that this is fake, please.

thanks again.

[kay106]

An-Nahl is 'Ism ul-Jins' or 'species name'. It can be used to give both singular and plural meaning. (Sort of like 'sheep' in English being used both for plural and singular) The use of kulli, fasluki and other singular feminine forms shows that it is being used in the plural meaning, as singular feminine form is used for plurals of non-intelligent nouns.

I hope somebody understood this. Grammar is tricky, confusing and difficult to explain.

so by adding a yaa on kul (eat), or fasluk (follow) makes it plural, if its non intelligent like a bee?? where did you get this grammer from? where is your source, do you have any example from the Quran. i really dont think what you are saying is true.

yaa at the end where God is commanding, example attakhizea, or kullee, or faslukee, means he is talking to a female, example - When God talks to mary, he uses kullee

فَكُلِي وَاشْرَبِي وَقَرِّي عَيْنًا فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ الْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِي إِنِّي نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ الْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا

"So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'" [19:26]

if you look at another context where it is male, it will be kul.

kulee is clearly a command to a female. as well as faslukee...

You are saying that the yaa makes it plural, how? Can you please give me your source for this. any any other example from the Quran.

[kay106]

I did check out the site you posted. It appears to be trying to create miracles where none exist, by, what appears to me to be shoddy reasoning and deliberate mistranslations and overlooking of pertinent information (just my opinion :D) . Is Quran itself not miracle enough for them? Must there be intricate secret numerical codes behind everything?

The closest thing I saw to this was in a jewwish book, 'The Chosen', by Chaim Potok. They did this sort of reasoning as a game to sharpen their wits, but even they knew better than to trust the results of deliberate bending of sacred texts to give the meaning they desired.

I have actually verified some of them, and they are true. example the moon is mentioned 27 times in the Quran and this is how long the moon takes to go around the earth, 27 days. Many others are actually true. I have a 3 volume quran, which is the word to word translation as well as the other meanings of a word, i have verified many of them using that as well as other sources.

[Faye]

I have actually verified some of them, and they are true. example the moon is mentioned 27 times in the Quran and this is how long the moon takes to go around the earth, 27 days. Many others are actually true. I have a 3 volume quran, which is the word to word translation as well as the other meanings of a word, i have verified it using that as well as other sources.

Didn't say they weren't true, just that the fact that it is true has no significance. Even if it is true, what does it prove? That's like saying that the number of letter Es on a particular age are exactly equal to the page number and furthermore, the title of that chapter also begins with the letter E. Doesn't even prove that the author intended it to be that way, or even that he was aware of it, though Allah is perfect in his knowledge.

Some of the ones I looked at, (I didn't look at all of them) were shoddy because they ignored or did not count different forms of the same word. I would have to go back and check for the exact reference, but I remember in one place they counted all occurrences of the word Wahid, meaning the One unless it had a tanween of Fatha at the end, where in writing you add an unpronounced alif at the end to indicate the Fatha tanween, because they didn't use Harakaat in those times (like the unpronounced E at the end of like). The point is that they did not count those occurrences because it threw their count off. So, shoddy reasoning, overlooking of pertinent information and in the final case, mistranslation of the bee thing.

[Faye]

So worker bee is not mentioned as a male or female, instead the word nahl at the beginning is actually masculine by form, but it is one of those terms which is neither masculine nor femanine. there are no words to indicate that the worker bee is female. I hope u understand what i mean by worker bee.

thanks for all you help, i knew it was a fake miracle. people are claiming that the bees who are building the hives, eating from flowers, in other words the worker bees in the Quran are female, but in fact it actually has no gender specified. please correct me where i go wrong. Can you please clarify again that this is fake, please.

thanks again.

Absolutely correct.

[جوري]

:sl:
The word 'itakhizhi' from the same verse is also the feminine for take- does denote to me that the worker bee is female.. does anyone have an alternate explanation? if so how?




:w:

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

"And Your lord inspired the bee, to build your dwellings in hills, on trees, and in (human’s) habitations. Then, to eat of all the produce and follow the ways of your Lord made easy. There comes forth from their bodies a drink of varying colour, wherein is healing for men: Verily, in this is a sign for those who give thought." (The Quran, 16:68-69)

The translation of the Arabic word "attakhithi", which is the feminine form (Arabic grammar unlike English, differentiates between the sexes). The feminine form is used when all of those it refers to are female, whereas the masculine is used when a group consists of at least 1 male.

[Faye]

so by adding a yaa on kul (eat), or fasluk (follow) makes it plural, if its non intelligent like a bee?? where did you get this grammer from? where is your source, do you have any example from the Quran. i really dont think what you are saying is true.

yaa at the end where God is commanding, example attakhizea, or kullee, or faslukee, means he is talking to a female, example - When God talks to mary, he uses kullee

فَكُلِي وَاشْرَبِي وَقَرِّي عَيْنًا فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ الْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِي إِنِّي نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ الْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا

"So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'" [19:26]

if you look at another context where it is male, it will be kul.

kulee is clearly a command to a female. as well as faslukee...

You are saying that the yaa makes it plural, how? Can you please give me your source for this. any any other example from the Quran.

As is very obvious, Mary is an intelligent human being. And anyway, this form also applies to all intelligent or non intelligent singular females.

I am a student at a madrassa in Pakistan. We study grammar there. Unfortunately all my grammar books are either in Urdu or Arabic. Do you understand Urdu or Arabic? My books are 'Lisaan ul-Quran', pulblication of Madrassa Aisha Siddiqa lil Banaat, and 'an-Nahw al-WaZih lil Madaaris il-Ibtida2iyyah wa ath-Thanawiyyah'. Also I know of lots of highly reputed grammar books (in Arabic) which mention the rule. It is a very basic rule, used everywhere. I don't know why your books don't mention it. If you want, I can scan the relevant pages and you can get them translated from a source you trust.

I'll have to think about the Quran example for a bit. I'll get back to you about it when I'm not so tired.

[Faye]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

"And Your lord inspired the bee, to build your dwellings in hills, on trees, and in (human’s) habitations. Then, to eat of all the produce and follow the ways of your Lord made easy. There comes forth from their bodies a drink of varying colour, wherein is healing for men: Verily, in this is a sign for those who give thought." (The Quran, 16:68-69)

The translation of the Arabic word "attakhithi", which is the feminine form (Arabic grammar unlike English, differentiates between the sexes). The feminine form is used when all of those it refers to are female, whereas the masculine is used when a group consists of at least 1 male.

The word which is translated as 'their' in your translation (ha), is also the term for a singular female. So can other singular feminine forms (both in verbs and pronouns) be used for a non intelligent ie animal form.

For example, do you say: Hathihee kotobun, or do you say, Ha2olaa2i kotobun?

[جوري]

Arabic is my mother tongue and I agree with kay!
kulee
itakhithee
asluki
are all feminine period!

:w:

[FatimaAsSideqah]

The word which is translated as 'their' in your translation (ha), is also the term for a singular female. So can other singular feminine forms (both in verbs and pronouns) be used for a non intelligent ie animal form.

For example, do you say: Hathihee kotobun, or do you say, Ha2olaa2i kotobun?

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

I would say Hathihee kotobun.

[Faye]

:sl:
The word 'itakhizhi' from the same verse is also the feminine for take- does denote to me that the worker bee is female.. does anyone have an alternate explanation? if so how?




:w:

Alternate explanation: it uses feminine singular because it is referring to a non-human group, which is allowed, whether the group consists of all males (like books=kotubun), all females, or any mixture of the two.

For more information, read through the beginning of this thread.

[Faye]

Arabic is my mother tongue and I agree with kay!
kulee
itakhithee
asluki
are all feminine period!

:w:

Want me to post the grammar rules from my books, now we have some Arabic speakers?

BTW, would you say: Ha2olaa2i kotobun?

Read this:

هذه كتبٌ. هي موظوعة على الرف. أخذتها ولكن سقطت من يدي

See the repeated use of singular feminine for a group consisting of 100% male books :D

[Faye]

These are Qa3idah 47 and 48 from the volume one of the book 'an-Nahwo al-Wazih fee Qawa3idi al-loghati il-3arabiyyati lil-madaaris ith-Thanawiyyah'

يجب تئنيث الفعل:
ا - إذا كان الفاعل حقيقي التئنيث غير منفصل عن الفعل
ب - إذا كان الفاعل ضميرا يعود على مؤنثٍ مجازي التأنيث

يجوز تأنيث الفعل:
ا - إذا كان الفاعل حقيقي التأنيث مفصولاً عن فعله
ب - إذا كان الفاعل إسماً ظاهراً مجازي التأنيث
ح - إذا كان الفاعل جمع تكسير للمذكر أو المؤنث

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Calm down please. We are united as brothers and sisters. You are make Allah Taala sad to see this.

Please stop this or the Mods will closed this thread down.

Please to be feeling love and be happy.

[Faye]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Calm down please. We are united as brothers and sisters. You are make Allah Taala sad to see this.

Please stop this or the Mods will closed this thread down.

Please to be feeling love and be happy.

Sorry everybody, kay too, but I just lost my temper there for a bit.

But I think that I, atleast am no longer capable of participating in intelligent discussion here, so I am out.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Its very complicating and confusing. I think Faye needs to rest after she did lots of posts.

Brother Kay, I think someone else might help you for new answers, Insha'Allah! Be patient for Allah Taala.

:statisfie

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Sorry everybody, kay too, but I just lost my temper there for a bit.

But I think that I, atleast am no longer capable of participating in intelligent discussion here, so I am out.

Thats fine, sister. Don't worry and someone else might posting the answers for Brother Kay, Insha'Allah.

[جوري]

Want me to post the grammar rules from my books, now we have some Arabic speakers?

BTW, would you say: Ha2olaa2i kotobun?

Read this:

هذه كتبٌ. هي موظوعة على الرف. أخذتها ولكن سقطت من يدي

See the repeated use of singular feminine for a group consisting of 100% male books :D

3an mazha tat7adathi ya ukhty? in the previous statement did you get the feeling I was addressing a male?
Ukhty this is Quranic text we are speaking of and not subject to whims of interpretation..

I don't need your grammar book, I have lived a chunk of my life in Saudi Arabic and as stated Arabic is my mother tongue..

What I don't like however is brothers and sisters calling each other names because of a difference of opinion...

If this were a cook book or a mathematical equation I might ignore it a bit or consider an alternative route.. but I don't think that is appropriate to do with exegesis..

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
fi aman illah

[جوري]

P.S your example, is speaking of a pronoun and in the Quranic example is speaking of a verb.. I think you can agree with a language as complex as Arabic, the complete set of inflected forms of a verb have to agree with the gender of the adjective!


on a last note.. your above Arabic statement is wrought with grammatical errors.
No one actually speaks or writes likes that!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

[kay106]

3an mazha tat7adathi ya ukhty? in the previous statement did you get the feeling I was addressing a male?
Ukhty this is Quranic text we are speaking of and not subject to whims of interpretation..

I don't need your grammar book, I have lived a chunk of my life in Saudi Arabic and as stated Arabic is my mother tongue..

What I don't like however is brothers and sisters calling each other names because of a difference of opinion...

If this were a cook book or a mathematical equation I might ignore it a bit or consider an alternative route.. but I don't think that is appropriate to do with exegesis..

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
fi aman illah

have you read the other posts? is this person trying to confuse me or just talking without knowledge?

[kay106]

Didn't say they weren't true, just that the fact that it is true has no significance. Even if it is true, what does it prove? That's like saying that the number of letter Es on a particular age are exactly equal to the page number and furthermore, the title of that chapter also begins with the letter E. Doesn't even prove that the author intended it to be that way, or even that he was aware of it, though Allah is perfect in his knowledge.

Some of the ones I looked at, (I didn't look at all of them) were shoddy because they ignored or did not count different forms of the same word. I would have to go back and check for the exact reference, but I remember in one place they counted all occurrences of the word Wahid, meaning the One unless it had a tanween of Fatha at the end, where in writing you add an unpronounced alif at the end to indicate the Fatha tanween, because they didn't use Harakaat in those times (like the unpronounced E at the end of like). The point is that they did not count those occurrences because it threw their count off. So, shoddy reasoning, overlooking of pertinent information and in the final case, mistranslation of the bee thing.

point is that there cannot be too many coincidences in one book. Why are you so negative? you said the female bee miracle is made up and so are these ones on this site?

[kay106]

P.S your example, is speaking of a pronoun and in the Quranic example is speaking of a verb.. I think you can agree with a language as complex as Arabic, the complete set of inflected forms of a verb have to agree with the gender of the adjective!


on a last note.. your above Arabic statement is wrought with grammatical errors.
No one actually speaks or writes likes that!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

can you please tell me what a verb and a pronoun is by giving example.

salam

[جوري]

itakhizhi is a verb, bee a pronoun!
the example is already given you in the Quran
:w:

[جوري]

have you read the other posts? is this person trying to confuse me or just talking without knowledge?

:sl:
perhaps the sister is just confused as can happen to any of us..

Ramadan is around the corner and I hope insha'Allah it brings the ummah closer together.. there is no reason to be upset with one another over grammar..

:w:

[FatimaAsSideqah]

I have to be honest and I am agree with Sister Skye.

[جوري]

Salaam 3lykoum akhi.. are you a convert?
Sometimes people who don't speak Arabic are a little confused.. Yes I have seen many sects arising even here on this forum, the new one 'Quran only sect'

we are indeed warned against this for these are the tribulations of the end.. and hence prophet Mohammed SAW stated, he who holds on to his religion, is as if holding on to an ember from hell!

why don't you read this short book by Dr. Gary miller... he was a former priest who studied Islam for 25 years before converting, he touches the subject of the female honey bee..

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/amazingq.htm

:w:

[Muhammad]

:sl:

I have deleted many unnecessary posts.

It is important to discuss the meaning of the Qur'an with a person who is qualified to shed more light on this. It is not open to personal interpretation. Furthermore, please remember to remain respectful to other members.

[Whatsthepoint]

Anyone care to examine Faye's claims about grammar, plural bellies etc?

[kay106]

can people please not jump to any conclusions, i did not call anyone specfically a satanist or kafir. they could be or they may not be I do not no,. But it is clear that there are many mischief makers on the internet, and this will not be tolerated.

[kay106]

Anyone care to examine Faye's claims about grammar, plural bellies etc?

what about it?

[Whatsthepoint]

what about it?

No one has really systematically refuted her claims, have they?

[kay106]

No one has really systematically refuted her claims, have they?

Yes:-) this persons (dont really know if its a male, female, ...) claims does not make any sense, you can look at many contexes in the Quran, that when God commands a female to eat, it is kulee, when its a male it is Kul, when God commands a male to follow it is asluk, when it is female it is faslukee, as far as i have concluded, a command with a yaa at the end makes it femanine. this is very very clear, as in the case of Female honey bee.

this persons claims is that when it is a yaa for a non intelligent specie it makes it plural, doesn't mean it is male or female. this is nonsense. I have asked her to proove it, she gave some text without even translating it, people are mocking at the thing she posted. see the posts. either she is talking without any knowledge, or she is trying to confuse me. also this point about female bee has been verified by schollars, such as Gary Miller, who is a revert from Christianity, Zakir Naik, ...... people who speak arabic, ......


Peace,

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes:-) Her claims does not make any sense, you can look at many contexes in the Quran, that when God commands a female to eat, it is kulee, when its a male it is Kul, when God commands a male to follow it is asluk, when it is female it is faslukee, as far as i have concluded, a command with a yaa at the end makes it femanine. this is very very clear, as in the case of Female honey bee.

Peace,

She did mention something about intelligent and non-intelligent nouns, so her arguments do make sense
No one has argued or refuted her claims about grammar being different for intelligent and non-intelligent nouns like in this case.

[جوري]

I have already provided an explanation on the previous page, Arabic isn't her first language and she hasn't come back to refute me!

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

I have already provided an explanation on the previous page, Arabic isn't her first language and she hasn't come back to refute me!

cheers

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

[kay106]

she did mention something about intelligent and non-intelligent nouns, so her arguments do make sense
no one has argued or refuted her claims about grammar being different for intelligent and non-intelligent nouns like in this case.

111

[kay106]

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

the issues about the multiple bellies, AllahHuAlim, Allah knows best. i will leave this to the experts, i have found out what i needed to know.

[kay106]

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

"this persons (dont really know if its a male, female, ...) claims does not make any sense, you can look at many contexes in the Quran, that when God commands a female to eat, it is kulee, when its a male it is Kul, when God commands a male to follow it is asluk. this is very very clear, as in the case of Female honey bee. "

Therefore if the verb is femanine, this means the subject is femanine too. whether people likes it or not. But this is the truth. LA ILAHA ILLAL ALLAH MUHAMMED RASUL ALLAH. 7 words changed the world for good. will change it more for the better, whether people likes it or not. ALAHAMDULLILAH HI RABBIL ALAMIN. All praises and thanks to the cherisher and sustainer of the worlds. I prostrate my 7 limbs (face, hands, knees, feets,) to Allah, lord of the 7 heavens and the glorious throne, whether people likes it or not!

[Whatsthepoint]

"it doesn't make sense that if it is a singluar femanine form it becomes plural because otherwise how do we refer to a singluar femanine bee then? that means we never can. this claim is baseless. "

I don't know, perhaps you can't.
That's one explanation Faye provided:

An-Nahl is 'Ism ul-Jins' or 'species name'. It can be used to give both singular and plural meaning. (Sort of like 'sheep' in English being used both for plural and singular) The use of kulli, fasluki and other singular feminine forms shows that it is being used in the plural meaning, as singular feminine form is used for plurals of non-intelligent nouns.

She may be wrong, but so far no arabic speaker has refuted her claims. Perhaps Purest Skye will in short notice.

the issues about the multiple bellies, AllahHuAlim, Allah knows best. It could easily refer to the segments. But i will leave this to the experts, i have found out what i needed to know.

Not that easily, but it's possible...

[kay106]

I don't know, perhaps you can't.
That's one explanation Faye provided:

She may be wrong, but so far no arabic speaker has refuted her claims. Perhaps Purest Skye will in short notice.


Not that easily, but it's possible...

How do you refute something which is not true, which is baseless. You ask them for proof, if they cant give it, means it is not true. Simple.

[Whatsthepoint]

How do you refute something which is not true, which is baseless. You ask them for proof, if they cant give it, means it is not true. Simple.

How do you know it's not true? Why do you think its baseless?
What proof do you want of her? She explained the grammar, she even told you which books she was using. What further evidence do you think she can come up with? If you disagree with the presented evidence, it's up to you and Arabic speakers to try to refute it, again using grammatical rules, examples etc. This is how grammatical debates work.
I'm neutral here, I have no idea who's right and who's wrong, but so far Faye is the only one to have presented evidence.

[جوري]

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

Her claims are baseless, given that she doesn't speak Arabic, I can understand her difficulties in understanding basic grammar.. given your protracted caprices at utter nonesense I am not surprised either ( forgive me for pointing out the obvious)..

It is like you saying I have fused fingers because syndactyly exists and the burden of proof is upon me to prove otherwise.

Is this something I even wish to entertain? It is asinine on all grounds!
The verbs are feminine because the subject is feminine end of story!

cheers

[Faye]

I have already provided an explanation on the previous page, Arabic isn't her first language and she hasn't come back to refute me!

cheers

It's true, Arabic is not my first language, but we are studying Classical Arabic Grammer, with the focus being on Quranic Grammar.

A person with Arabic as their first language probably speaks 3ammiyah. And 3ammiyah is quite different from the language used in the Quran, particularly when it comes to vocabulary and grammar. Minute grammatical points used in the Quran may not be present or used in the everyday language. So, without making a study of Quranic Grammar, it is quite possible that a native speaker be mistaken.

Not that I am saying that my own grammar is anywhere close to perfect, as I am still a student, but the rule of feminine form being used for plurals of non-humans is very basic. We studied it in our first week at Madrassa.

The Ism-ul-Jins rule is more complex. We haven't officially studied it yet, but I knew it was there and looked it up in my books. I may be wrong about it, but I think I am correct.

The reason I don't agree with the feminine bee concept is not because it would be grammatically incorrect, but because the meaning would be off in that translation as it would say: "her bellies" (though I agree that if a bee has more than two abdomens, the concept of the feminine bee is not wrong). An alternate, also grammatically correct translation would use the grammatical rule of the feminine form being used for non-human groups, and translate it as "their bellies". All the translations I looked at translate it that way (one of my reasons for preferring my explanation), indicating that they have used that grammatical rule.

I suggest that in order to refute me, you give an alternate explanation for why so many translations translate "butooni-ha" as "their bellies".

[Faye]

P.S your example, is speaking of a pronoun and in the Quranic example is speaking of a verb..

I provided a verb as well (SaqaTat).

I think you can agree with a language as complex as Arabic, the complete set of inflected forms of a verb have to agree with the gender of the adjective!

Will you clarify this statement? The gender of the adjective is also feminine. (Hazihee) I don't understand what you intend to say here.

on a last note.. your above Arabic statement is wrought with grammatical errors.

What are the grammatical errors? What would be the correct form?

No one actually speaks or writes likes that!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

You speak and write 3ammiyyah, I speak, read and write Fus7ah. That's the difference.

[Faye]

itakhizhi is a verb, bee a pronoun!
the example is already given you in the Quran
:w:

Actually, bee is not a pronoun, it is noun.

The ha at the end of butooni-ha is a pronoun. It means hers (as in belonging to her).

And don't jump on me here claiming that I contradicted myself. It also means theirs (as in belonging to them, or of them) when referring to non-humans.

[Faye]

when God commands a male to follow it is asluk, when it is female it is faslukee.

Correction: when God commands a male to follow it is osluk, when it is female it is oslukee. The fa behind it means 'so'

[kay106]

Correction: when God commands a male to follow it is osluk, when it is female it is oslukee. The fa behind it means 'so'

the point was that the EE means that God is talking to a femanine. Get the point? seems to me your admitting it, EE makes it femanine.

[kay106]

It's true, Arabic is not my first language, but we are studying Classical Arabic Grammer, with the focus being on Quranic Grammar.

A person with Arabic as their first language probably speaks 3ammiyah. And 3ammiyah is quite different from the language used in the Quran, particularly when it comes to vocabulary and grammar. Minute grammatical points used in the Quran may not be present or used in the everyday language. So, without making a study of Quranic Grammar, it is quite possible that a native speaker be mistaken.

Not that I am saying that my own grammar is anywhere close to perfect, as I am still a student, but the rule of feminine form being used for plurals of non-humans is very basic. We studied it in our first week at Madrassa.

The Ism-ul-Jins rule is more complex. We haven't officially studied it yet, but I knew it was there and looked it up in my books. I may be wrong about it, but I think I am correct.

The reason I don't agree with the feminine bee concept is not because it would be grammatically incorrect, but because the meaning would be off in that translation as it would say: "her bellies" (though I agree that if a bee has more than two abdomens, the concept of the feminine bee is not wrong). An alternate, also grammatically correct translation would use the grammatical rule of the feminine form being used for non-human groups, and translate it as "their bellies". All the translations I looked at translate it that way (one of my reasons for preferring my explanation), indicating that they have used that grammatical rule.

I suggest that in order to refute me, you give an alternate explanation for why so many translations translate "butooni-ha" as "their bellies".

we are talking about aslukee, faslukee, attakhizee. not Butunha, Like i have mentioned earlier, a command word with a Yaa at the end means the subject is femanine.

Now you claims that that because Butunha could mean "their" thats why the bee is not femanine? thats why the yaa at the end makes it plural? dont make any sense.

The Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran.

[kay106]

How do you know it's not true? Why do you think its baseless?
What proof do you want of her? She explained the grammar, she even told you which books she was using. What further evidence do you think she can come up with? If you disagree with the presented evidence, it's up to you and Arabic speakers to try to refute it, again using grammatical rules, examples etc. This is how grammatical debates work.
I'm neutral here, I have no idea who's right and who's wrong, but so far Faye is the only one to have presented evidence.

according to you the presented evidence is "yaa makes it plural" doesn't mean God is commanding a female bee. Dont make any sense, where is the evidence for that? that non-intelligent noun becomes plural by verbs.

[kay106]

how do you say her book in arabic, it is kitabuha, the book is non intelligent, so does that become plural?

[Faye]

the point was that the EE means that God is talking to a femanine. Get the point? seems to me your admitting it, EE makes it femanine.

Nope, just correcting the spelling mistakes in your post. No admitting, no comment.

[Faye]

according to you the presented evidence is "yaa makes it plural" doesn't mean God is commanding a female bee. Dont make any sense, where is the evidence for that? that non-intelligent bees is a different grammer, with singluar femanine forms.

how do you say her book in arabic, it is kitabuha, the book is non intelligent, so does that become plural?

We have already gone over this rule repeatedly. Either you understand it, and are pretending to misunderstand it because you want to trip me up, or you don't understand it and future repetitions will not make a difference.

Are you a lawyer? If you aren't maybe you should be.

[Faye]

we are talking about aslukee, faslukee, attakhizee. not Butunha, Like i have mentioned earlier, a command word with a Yaa at the end means the subject is femanine.

Now you claims that that because Butunha could mean "their" thats why the bee is not femanine? thats why the yaa at the end makes it plural? dont make any sense.

The Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran.

Since you and I agree that the verbs are feminine in form, we have no more to debate on that point.

My point is that a command word with a Yaa at the end means the subject is feminine most of the time but not all. Since it is fairly rare that a non-intelligent being is commanded to do something, I could not find examples to support this. You did not accept as evidence the grammatical rules I posted, (though on what basis?).

My final evidence is the use of the grammatical rule I mentioned in translations of the Quran.

Having provided evidence, you have responded to it, not by refuting it, but by simply refusing to understand or accept it. Since it appears to be perfectly clear to me, and I am incapable of making it clearer, we can either drop the debate, due to a language barrier, or you can take the burden of refuting my evidence with evidence of your own.

Again, I suggest you find the grammatical rule which makes it permissible to translate a female singular pronoun as a plural pronoun. I have provided the rule, which you refused to accept, so you must now provide a rule of your own to explain away this abnormality. If you don't, I can make the same argument about your own translation, as you can about mine, except in my case it would involve pronouns. ie, why are you translating a singular feminine pronoun as a plural?

[Faye]

according to you the presented evidence is "yaa makes it plural" doesn't mean God is commanding a female bee. Dont make any sense, where is the evidence for that? that non-intelligent bees is a different grammer, with singluar femanine forms.

The evidence that you refused to consider in the form of posted grammatical rules

[Faye]

The Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran.

But the spoken Arabic of now is significantly differant from the spoken Arabic of the time of the Prophet SAWS. Many Arabs find themselves unable to understand the Quran while hearing or reading it, just as many English speakers find it difficult to understand or speak Shakespearean English without study, or a guide explaining the difficult terms.

[جوري]

repeat post

[جوري]

هذه كتبٌ. هي موظوعة على الرف. أخذتها ولكن سقطت من يدي

is very sophmoric and no one in classical arabic writes like that.
You should try
akhth't alkotoub almawdo3a 3la Ar'raf for starters
Do you even in English write, ' these are books, they are placed on a shelf? if it doesn't soound right to you in English, it sounds even more laughable in Arabic.

pls try to understand the difference between the evocative style and the demonstrative articles as addressed in the Quran and all the words used therein.. as this is the last I wish to deal with this subject!
Some of the things you write are true, but you have missed itakhizhi, and asluki is singlular and addressing a female, You simply don't address a male that way, even in plural even a 'non thinking 'IT"~

:w:

[Faye]

هذه كتبٌ. هي موظوعة على الرف. أخذتها ولكن سقطت من يدي

is very sophmoric and no one in classical arabic writes like that.
You should try
akhth't alkotoub almawdo3a 3la Ar'raf wa'laknhoum saqatou min yadi!
Do you even in English write, ' these are books, they are placed on a shelf' if it doesn't soound right to you in English, it sounds even more laughable in Arabic.

Don't change the grammar of the Quran to suit you!
There is no doubt that itakhizhi, is singlular and addressing a female, the same as isluki. You simply don't address a male that way, even in plural~

:w:

We're talking grammar here, not balaghah. I made a series of baby sentences to illustrate a point, not to display my composition skills. And wa'lakinnahoum saqatou min yadi is bad grammar.

[جوري]

let me pose this question for you dear sis, you may ask whom ever is teaching you
why in suret an'naml the verse states

حَتَّى إِذَا أَتَوْا عَلَى وَادِي النَّمْلِ قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّمْلُ ادْخُلُوا مَسَاكِنَكُمْ لَا يَحْطِمَنَّكُمْ سُلَيْمَانُ وَجُنُودُهُ وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ {18}
[Pickthal 27:18] Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.

why does it read 'ya ayhoha an'naml idkhilou masaknkoum, and not ya aythoua an'naml idkhouli masaknkoum? since they too are a non-thinking object? why are they clearly addressed in the masculine here?

وَأَوْحَى رَبُّكَ إِلَى النَّحْلِ أَنِ اتَّخِذِي مِنَ الْجِبَالِ بُيُوتًا وَمِنَ الشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعْرِشُونَ {68}

[Pickthal 16:68] And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch;

Na7l here is plural as you can see followed by itkhazhi not itakhiz, as is the naml where as in the first verse, naml is also plural, yet addressed with idkhoulou not idkhouli.. as you can see they are both exactly the same yet conjugated to suit the subject!

clearely one is engendered for a reason!
.. I edited the other post to reflect a more correct statement, however , your 'baby' sentences are disjointed still and don't make sense...

I suggest you go to your preceptor or whomever is teaching you and ask why Nahl and Naml are addressed so differently if the rules are the same!

:w:

[Faye]

wa'lakinnahoum saqatou min yadi is bad grammar.

If not so, do you consider this Ayat in the Quran bad grammar? According to what you said, it should be: wa iza al-jibaalo soyyiroo

وإذا الجبال سيرت

[Faye]

let me pose this question for you dear sis, you may ask whom ever is teaching you
why in suret an'naml the verse states

حَتَّى إِذَا أَتَوْا عَلَى وَادِي النَّمْلِ قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّمْلُ ادْخُلُوا مَسَاكِنَكُمْ لَا يَحْطِمَنَّكُمْ سُلَيْمَانُ وَجُنُودُهُ وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ {18}
[Pickthal 27:18] Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.

why does it read 'ya ayhoha an'naml idkhilou masaknkoum, and not ya aythoua an'naml idkhouli masaknkoum? since they too are a non-thinking object? why are they clearly addressed in the masculine here?

وَأَوْحَى رَبُّكَ إِلَى النَّحْلِ أَنِ اتَّخِذِي مِنَ الْجِبَالِ بُيُوتًا وَمِنَ الشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعْرِشُونَ {68}

[Pickthal 16:68] And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch;

Na7l here is plural as you can see followed by itkhazhi not itakhiz, as is the naml where as in the first verse, naml is also plural, yet addressed with idkhoulou not idkhouli.. as you can see they are both exactly the same yet conjugated to suit the subject!

clearely one is engendered for a reason!
.. I edited the other post to reflect a more correct statement, however , your 'baby' sentences are disjointed still and don't make sense...

I suggest you go to your preceptor or whomever is teaching you and ask why Nahl and Naml are addressed so differently if the rules are the same!

:w:

This rule is Jawazi, as in allowed, though in most cases it is the way I said it. It is allowed to use the plural form or singular feminine, though the plural form is very rare.

Another occurrence of plural form in the Quran for non-intelligents is in Surah Yusuf Ayat 43.

The original rule I posted was:

In Arabic, the plural form of any noun which is not intelligent, (Animals count as non-intelligent. So do bellies:smile:) is usually treated as a singular feminine noun. There are exceptions, even in the Quran but this is the general rule.

[Faye]

You simply don't address a male that way, even in plural even a 'non thinking 'IT"~

Read Surah Takweer. Ayat 2,3,5,6, 10. I believe all the verbs are feminine form referring to plural masculine objects.

[kay106]

let me pose this question for you dear sis, you may ask whom ever is teaching you
why in suret an'naml the verse states

حَتَّى إِذَا أَتَوْا عَلَى وَادِي النَّمْلِ قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّمْلُ ادْخُلُوا مَسَاكِنَكُمْ لَا يَحْطِمَنَّكُمْ سُلَيْمَانُ وَجُنُودُهُ وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ {18}
[Pickthal 27:18] Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.

why does it read 'ya ayhoha an'naml idkhilou masaknkoum, and not ya aythoua an'naml idkhouli masaknkoum? since they too are a non-thinking object? why are they clearly addressed in the masculine here?

وَأَوْحَى رَبُّكَ إِلَى النَّحْلِ أَنِ اتَّخِذِي مِنَ الْجِبَالِ بُيُوتًا وَمِنَ الشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعْرِشُونَ {68}

[Pickthal 16:68] And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch;

Na7l here is plural as you can see followed by itkhazhi not itakhiz, as is the naml where as in the first verse, naml is also plural, yet addressed with idkhoulou not idkhouli.. as you can see they are both exactly the same yet conjugated to suit the subject!

clearely one is engendered for a reason!
.. I edited the other post to reflect a more correct statement, however , your 'baby' sentences are disjointed still and don't make sense...

I suggest you go to your preceptor or whomever is teaching you and ask why Nahl and Naml are addressed so differently if the rules are the same!

:w:

ALAHAMDULLILAH, You got him/her there sister! I pray to Allah for you.

So something with Alif and Lam, at the beginning, example النَّحْلِ & النَّمْلِ means its plural? do plurals have masculine or femanine gender, or are they just neutral?

[kay106]

She is sending me private messages now that she has started a new thread about fake mathematical miracles. What is her problem?

[kay106]

let me pose this question for you dear sis, you may ask whom ever is teaching you
why in suret an'naml the verse states

حَتَّى إِذَا أَتَوْا عَلَى وَادِي النَّمْلِ قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّمْلُ ادْخُلُوا مَسَاكِنَكُمْ لَا يَحْطِمَنَّكُمْ سُلَيْمَانُ وَجُنُودُهُ وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ {18}
[Pickthal 27:18] Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.

why does it read 'ya ayhoha an'naml idkhilou masaknkoum, and not ya aythoua an'naml idkhouli masaknkoum? since they too are a non-thinking object? why are they clearly addressed in the masculine here?

وَأَوْحَى رَبُّكَ إِلَى النَّحْلِ أَنِ اتَّخِذِي مِنَ الْجِبَالِ بُيُوتًا وَمِنَ الشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعْرِشُونَ {68}

[Pickthal 16:68] And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch;

Na7l here is plural as you can see followed by itkhazhi not itakhiz, as is the naml where as in the first verse, naml is also plural, yet addressed with idkhoulou not idkhouli.. as you can see they are both exactly the same yet conjugated to suit the subject!

clearely one is engendered for a reason!
.. I edited the other post to reflect a more correct statement, however , your 'baby' sentences are disjointed still and don't make sense...

I suggest you go to your preceptor or whomever is teaching you and ask why Nahl and Naml are addressed so differently if the rules are the same!

:w:

Please correct me where i go wrong, idkhilou (ادْخُلُوا) means to enter, this refers to male and females, as can be seen in other contexes such as:


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ادْخُلُواْ فِي السِّلْمِ كَافَّةً وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ إِنَّهُ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ
O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy. [Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #208]

but when refering to females, it specifically uses a yaa at the end as seen at:

قِيلَ لَهَا ادْخُلِي الصَّرْحَ فَلَمَّا رَأَتْهُ حَسِبَتْهُ لُجَّةً وَكَشَفَتْ عَن سَاقَيْهَا قَالَ إِنَّهُ صَرْحٌ مُّمَرَّدٌ مِّن قَوَارِيرَ قَالَتْ رَبِّ إِنِّي ظَلَمْتُ نَفْسِي وَأَسْلَمْتُ مَعَ سُلَيْمَانَ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

She was asked to enter ( ادْخُلِي ) the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Solomon, to the Lord of the Worlds." [An-Naml, Chapter #27, Verse #44]

what does the لُواْ mean?

[جوري]

ALAHAMDULLILAH, You got him/her there sister! I pray to Allah for you.

So something with Alif and Lam, at the beginning, example النَّحْلِ & النَّمْلِ means its plural? do plurals have masculine or femanine gender, or are they just neutral?

plural engenders both, and as you can see in the example clearely, there is no difference between Nahl (bees) and naml (ants) on any grounds, yet you see it clearely addressed in the feminine in one and the mascuiline in the other.. if her rules of grammar are sovereign to all 'mindless living things' then Then Naml would have been addressed the exact same way as the nahl..

Al7mdlilah the Quran is its own vindication, but she is certainly entitled to her opinion..

You have examples from the Quran of the exact similar subjects and you have a non-arabic speaking member's rules on grammar!

:w:

[kay106]

plural engenders both, and as you can see in the example clearely, there is no difference between Nahl (bees) and naml (ants) on any grounds, yet you see it clearely addressed in the feminine in one and the mascuiline in the other.. if her rules of grammar are sovereign to all 'mindless living things' then Then Naml would have been addressed the exact same way as the nahl..

Al7mdlilah the Quran is its own vindication, but she is certainly entitled to her opinion..

You have examples from the Quran of the exact similar subjects and you have a non-arabic speaking member's rules on grammar!

:w:

I know her/his.... grammer is totally baseless, this is clearly proven with your example from surah an naml, my question is how something becomes plural, النَّحْلِ & النَّمْلِ , they both have alif and lam, is it this that makes it plural? any other examples, i am trying to learn as much as i can.

you mentioned in surah naml that the ants referred to in masculine, i thougt it was referring to both? when female ant orders the other ants, i thought it orders all ants, not just masculine.

[جوري]

no 'Al' equals to 'the' I am sorry I have been neglecting to answer all your posts, I am just really always pressed for time, pls don't think I am ignoring you or that your questions aren't important

naml is plural Namla is singular 'Al'naml' means the ants
Nahl is plural, nahla is singular 'Al'nahal' the bees..
it is called mo3araf be Al..
that is how All of God's names start with 'Al' to distinguish him from any generous, or any kind, by the most generous the most kind..

I hope that was of help insha'Allah?

:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

Why are you two ignoring Faye's posts?

[جوري]

Because I have already posted her another example from the Quran with the exact same subject matter addressed in the masculine.. at this point, she is entitled to her opinion, I can't force it down her throat even in example form from the same book she is using to assert the opposite..

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Because I have already posted her another example from the Quran with the exact same subject matter addressed in the masculine.. at this point, she is entitled to her opinion, I can't force it down her throat even in example form from the same book she is using to assert the opposite..

peace

She did say masculine plural can be applied, however its rarely used compared to feminine singular.
So one could say a specific gender is used for a reason in the ants verse rather than in the bees verse.

[جوري]

She did say masculine plural can be applied, however its rarely used compared to feminine singular.
So one could believe a specific gender is used for a reason in the ants verse rather than in the bees verse.

and that is her opinion, which only sprang up when I made an opposite verse of what she claims visible to her.. one should in the very least be consistent?
The very Arabic she used was incorrect and disjointed, I wouldn't tackle something as fundamental as the Quran itself which is the reference point for all Arabic grammar, considering Arabic isn't even her first language.

I have no reason to believe that God addresses a subset of bees in the feminine and a subset of ants in the masculine were it not to highlight their genders, if the rules applied to all then you wouldn't have three articles addressing the female worker bees given that there are male bees, and by the same token the ants would be addressed in the exact feminine manner, where it would be idkhouli maskankoum.

So with this my part with this topic has come to an end

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

and that is her opinion, which only sprang up when I made an opposite verse of what she claims visible to her.. one should in the very least be consistent?

In fact, she mentioned that in her first or second post, I'm not sure which one.

I have no reason to believe that God addresses a subset of bees in the feminine and a subset of ants in the masculine were it not to highlight their genders, if the rules applied to all then you wouldn't have three articles addressing the female worker bees given that there are male bees, and by the same token the ants would be addressed in the exact feminine manner, where it would be idkhouli maskankoum.

You don't know if the bees are adressed in feminine singular, they could be adressed in plural, the grammar is the same according to Fayem you can't prove what the author though, can you? and besides, there's the multiple bellies issue.

[جوري]

In fact, she mentioned that in her first or second post, I'm not sure which one.


You don't know if the bees are adressed in feminine singular, they could be adressed in plural, the grammar is the same according to Fayem you can't prove what the author though, can you? and besides, there's the multiple bellies issue.

They are addressed in the feminine not once but three times, but you are welcome to her opinion..

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

They are addressed in the feminine not once but three times, but you are welcome to her opinion..
peace

So what, that seems to be the common rule. Other non-intelligent nouns, animals too, are adressed in the feminine in the Quran.
I know that's her opinion, but what you claim to be true is an opinion just as well. Hers is backed by some more grammar I guess..

[جوري]

I provided grammar too from the same book, addressing the same subject in the opposite manner that she claims!

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

I provided grammar too from the same book, addressing the same subject in the opposite manner that she claims!

peace

You said the verbs and the rest are feminine, which Faye mentioned in her first post.
You claim the verse addresses a single feminine bee, which is grammatically possible, however you haven't proven Faye's option (feminine singular denoting plural) is wrong. And above all, you haven't addressed the multiple bellies issue, which is the core of Faye's argument.

[جوري]

You said the verbs and the rest are feminine, which Faye mentioned in her first post.

I haven't followed most of fays posts, on the account I have no interest save where she sees fit to interpret religious text!

You claim the verse addresses a single feminine bee, which is grammatically possible, however you haven't proven Faye's option (feminine singular denoting plural) is wrong. And above all, you haven't addressed the multiple bellies issue, which is the core of Faye's argument.

.
I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period ! botoniha(bellies) is in the feminine plural and it is indeed in the female worker bee's belly that honey is made, otherwise it would be bitonihim (masculine plural) but prior to that account, there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline plural if her rules applied, why to one subset and not the other? there are exceptions she says, well both 'exceptions' were correct in both those two accounts, so there really is no point going over it ad nauseam.. .

at this stage and really for the last time as I detest going over the same thing over and over, you are free to take her account of it, and learn arabic as well as interpret exegesis in accordance to her beliefs!



I am done with this

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period !not singular or otherwise, botonihim (bellies) is in the feminine but prior to that there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline.

edit.
Yeah, but she gave you an other examples of feminine singular being used for plural masculine objects or animals.
Do you see that if you translate the feminine singular into feminine singular the verse doesn't make sense, as the bee would have multiple bellies.

[Whatsthepoint]

I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period ! botoniha(bellies) is in the feminine plural

You sure about this. According to Faye, the belly itself is masculine gender, botoniha on the other hand means her (or their) bellies, if that's what you were trying to say.

and it is indeed in the female worker bee's belly that honey is made, otherwise it would be bitonihim (masculine plural)

Judging from the above, I guess bitonihim means their (masculine) bellies?
Or is it that nouns in arabic can change gender?

but prior to that account, there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline plural if her rules applied, why to one subset and not the other? there are exceptions she says, well both 'exceptions' were correct in both those two accounts, so there really is no point going over it ad nauseam.. .

As she said, both uses are allowed, one is more common (feminine singular denoting plural) and one is less common (plural denoting plural..).
Yes both are correct, but if only one causes issues, multiple bellies issue that is.

[جوري]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you suggesting that the bee in the verse is feminine but not singular?
Yeah, but she gave you an other examples of feminine singular being used for plural masculine objects or animals.
Do you see that if you translate the feminine singular into feminine singular the verse doesn't make sense, as the bee would have multiple bellies.

1-she gave examples of inanimate objects..

2-bees indeed have two stomachs, I am glad you brought it up! as it is another miracle of the Quran, that was discovered only recently!

Bees have two stomachs - one stomach for eating and the other special stomach is for storing nectar collected from flowers or water so that they can carry it back to their hive.

http://www.ontariobee.com/index.php?...display&cat=38


peace

[Whatsthepoint]

2-bees indeed have two stomachs, I am glad you brought it up! as it is another miracle of the Quran, that was discovered only recently!
Bees have two stomachs - one stomach for eating and the other special stomach is for storing nectar collected from flowers or water so that they can carry it back to their hive.

Kay already brought that up.
The bellies in the verse are plural not dual, so this doesn't solve anything.
And besides, belly is not the same as stomach!

[جوري]

Kay already brought that up.
The bellies in the verse are plural not dual, so this doesn't solve anything.

lol.. I can't tell you how that made me laugh!
You are just splitting hair--- but thank you..

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

lol.. I can't tell you how that made me laugh!
You are just splitting hair--- but thank you..

cheers

Why am I splitting hair? Arabic's got dual, bees have got two stomachs, so dual should be used, especially if you consider the claims about the literary perfection of the books.
And as I said, belly doesn't even equal stomach so you cant use that.

[Whatsthepoint]

But I'm gald we finally agree as to what the point is?

[جوري]

Why am I splitting hair? Arabic's got dual, bees have got two stomachs, so dual should be used, especially if you consider the claims about the literary perfection of the books.
And as I said, belly doesn't even equal stomach so you cant use that.

perhaps you or fay can you give me an example of how dual would be used in this case since you both have a strong grip on grammar?
and belly is used to denote stomach!

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

perhaps you or fay can you give me an example of how dual would be used in this case since you both have a strong grip on grammar?
and belly is used to denote stomach!

cheers

Ok, this is gonna take some time though and I'm going to the movies, will get back to it.

[crayon]

perhaps you or fay can you give me an example of how dual would be used in this case since you both have a strong grip on grammar?
and belly is used to denote stomach!

cheers

Would "batnayha" work? It doesn't really sound right, though..
oh, and since the plural is used, perhaps the third "belly" could be understood as its inside, its "batin", can't think of the exact translation for it right now.

[جوري]

Would "batnayha" work? It doesn't really sound right, though..
oh, and since the plural is used, perhaps the third "belly" could be understood as its inside, its "batin", can't think of the exact translation for it right now.

No it doesn't sound right as there is no such word.. and 'batin' changes the meaning to 'hidden' not inside, which renders the whole thing nonsensical...

we can't play around with Quranic text to amuse someone who wishes to split hair...astghfor Allah!

:w:

[Faye]

I haven't followed most of fays posts, on the account I have no interest save where she sees fit to interpret religious text!

I don't think that I am re-interpreting religious texts. I am just showing the grammar that goes behind all the translations I found. Every single one of them said their bellies, translating a feminine singular pronoun as a plural pronoun. And none of them translated the previous verbs with female bee. And none of the tafaseer I found (Ma'arif ul-Quran, Tafseer ul-Muneer, Tafseer al-Uthmani) even mentioned the female bee issue, or the shift in grammatical tense, indicating that they thought there had been no shift (as in, the tense remained plural throughout the verbs, pronouns, everything).

I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period ! botoniha(bellies) is in the feminine plural and it is indeed in the female worker bee's belly that honey is made, otherwise it would be bitonihim (masculine plural) but prior to that account, there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline plural if her rules applied, why to one subset and not the other? there are exceptions she says, well both 'exceptions' were correct in both those two accounts, so there really is no point going over it ad nauseam.. .

Butoon is masculine plural.
Ha is singular feminine, not plural feminine. Plural feminine is Hunna.
So which of these do you think is plural feminine?

at this stage and really for the last time as I detest going over the same thing over and over, you are free to take her account of it, and learn arabic as well as interpret exegesis in accordance to her beliefs!

Like I said, I'm not interpreting. But I believe some other people may have been when they came up with this 'miracle'.

[جوري]

I don't think that I am re-interpreting religious texts. I am just showing the grammar that goes behind all the translations I found. Every single one of them said their bellies, translating a feminine singular pronoun as a plural pronoun. And none of them translated the previous verbs with female bee. And none of the tafaseer I found (Ma'arif ul-Quran, Tafseer ul-Muneer, Tafseer al-Uthmani) even mentioned the female bee issue, or the shift in grammatical tense, indicating that they thought there had been no shift (as in, the tense remained plural throughout the verbs, pronouns, everything).

If anyone where fit to 'translate' or interpret Quranic text it would have been the prophet Mohammed himself. have you see tafseer Mohammed SAW? There is a reason the Quran is described as such 'la tanqati3 3ajaeboh'
Its wonders will never cease.

and that is why some scholars like sheikh isha3rawi when attempting to interpret the Quran called his book 'khawtir al'quran' not tafseer al'quran. a person can only yajtahid, and when one learns something new, one shares their findings. many things not known then are known now which renders the book subject to a another discerning look-- You are certainly welcome to think of it as just another book but not render your own exegesis to it which I'd personally take with a grain of salt, unless you are a Muslim scholar and are in concensus.. are you?!

Butoon is masculine plural.
Ha is singular feminine, not plural feminine. Plural feminine is Hunna.
So which of these do you think is plural feminine?

bootinha is jam3 mo'aneth to non 3aqil so yes it is plural feminine bootenhunnaa is jam3 mo'anath salim to a thinking being. were you hoping I'd not know that?

Like I said, I'm not interpreting. But I believe some other people may have been when they came up with this 'miracle'

.

And like I said, you are free to believe that it is a non-miracle!

:w:

[Faye]

1-she gave examples of inanimate objects..

Two points.
1, You previously said that no plural male objects, animate or inanimate, could be treated as feminine singular. I gave an example with books, definitely inanimate, and you said it was bad grammar, and corrected it changing the pronouns and verbs to plural male form. Are you changing your opinion?
2, Most non-intelligent beings are inanimate. Animals are just a small percentage of them.

Edit. Animals are just a small percentage of non-intelligent beings.

[جوري]

Two points.
1, You previously said that no plural male objects, animate or inanimate, could be treated as feminine singular. I gave an example with books, definitely inanimate, and you said it was bad grammar, and corrected it changing the pronouns and verbs to plural male form. Are you changing your opinion?
2, Most non-intelligent beings are inanimate. Animals are just a small percentage of them.

I love how you underline words as if to hammer it in.
inanimate= appearing dead; not breathing or having no perceptible pulse
certainly doesn't apply to bees or ants etc but can apply to books, rocks mountains etc. I have no time to descend to word play or as your previous post change a clear jama3 mo'anath, or jama3 mo'anath salim to suit your needs as you see fit to interpret a verse.
I have no quarrels with you and don't want to sit here and debate you all day as a focal point, as stated you are free to think whichever way of the verse. be it literal or abstract, it really doesn't bother me unless you impose your own renditions on others who clearely see otherwise!

:w:

[جوري]

on feminine and masculine in Arabic grammar

المذكر والمؤنث



الاسم: مذكّر أو مؤنث. مثال المذكر: [رجل] و[كتاب].

فأما الأول: [رجل]، فمذكر حقيقي، لأن له مؤنثاً من جنسه. وأمّا الثاني: [كتاب]، فمذكر غير حقيقي، إذ ليس له مؤنث من جنسه، وإنما اصطلح أبناء اللغة على اعتباره مذكراً.

ومثال المؤنث: [امرأة] و[دار].

فأمّا الأول: [امرأة] فمؤنث حقيقي، لأن له مذكراً من جنسه. وأمّا الثاني: [دار] فمؤنث غير حقيقي، إذ ليس له مذكر من جنسه، وإنما اصطلح أبناء اللغة على اعتباره مؤنثاً.

ملاحظات عظيمة القيمة:

1- يغلب على الاسم المؤنث أن تلحق آخره: ألفٌ مقصورة مثل: [سلمى]، أو ألفٌ ممدودة مثل [حسناء]، أو تاء مربوطة مثل: [خديجة].

2- في اللغة أسماءٌ، سُمِع عن العرب تذكيرها وتأنيثها، منها: [السبيل- الحيّة - العنق - الطريق...]، ولذلك تقول: هذا أو هذه سبيل، وهذا أو هذه حيّة، وهذا أو هذه عنق، وهذا أو هذه طريق،...

3- للإناث حالات مقصورة عليهنّ، لا يشاركهن فيها الذكور، كالحَيْض والإتْآم(1) والطلاق... وأوصافُهنّ في هذه الحالات لا تلحقها التاء، فلا يقال مثلاً: هذه امرأة حائضة أو مُتْئِمة أو طالقة... بل يقال: امرأة حائِض أو مُتْئِم أو طالق(2)...

4- في العربية صفات استعملتها العرب للمذكر والمؤنث بلفظ واحد، مثل: صبور، حنون، جريح، قتيل... فقالوا: رجل صبور وامرأة صبور- ورجل جريح وامرأة جريح...

وقد بحث النحاة واللغويون في هذا قديماً، وذكروا أوزانه، ومواضع استعماله، وما شذ منه وما استثني... حتى إذا كان العصر الحديث، وقف مجمع اللغة العربية بالقاهرة عند هذه المسألة وبحث فيها، ثم خلص من ذلك إلى أن أجاز لحاقَ تاء التأنيث، كلَّ مؤنّث من الصفات. وبناء على ذلك يجوز أن يقال اليوم: رجل صبور وامرأة صبورة، ورجل جريح وامرأة جريحة، ورجل معطار وامرأة معطارة، ورجل معطير وامرأة معطيرة(3) ...


فمَن شاء أن يسلك اليوم هذا السبيل السهل فلا لوم عليه، ولا يعاب قوله. ومن شاء أن يأخذ بالطريقة القديمة، وهي الفصيحة

http://www.reefnet.gov.sy/education/kafaf/index.html

[Faye]

If anyone where fit to 'translate' or interpret Quranic text it would have been the prophet Mohammed himself. have you see tafseer Mohammed SAW? There is a reason the Quran is described as such 'la tanqati3 3ajaeboh'
Its wonders will never cease.

and that is why some scholars like sheikh isha3rawi when attempting to interpret the Quran called his book 'khawtir al'quran' not tafseer al'quran.

Semantics.

a person can only yajtahid, and when one learns something new, one shares their findings. many things not known then are known now which renders the book subject to a another discerning look-- You are certainly welcome to think of it as just another book but not render your own exegesis to it unless you are a Muslim scholar and are in concensus!

Oh, but my position, as I was saying, is according to the consensus. At least all the consensus I could find.

Just how recent is the discovery of this miracle? Because Tafseer ul-Muneer is a pretty recent publication.

bootinha is jam3 mo'aneth to non 3aqil so yes it is plural feminine bootenhunnaa is jam3 mo'anath salim to a thinking being. were you hoping I'd not know that?

Let me translate this statement. Ha is plural feminine for a non-intelligent, so yes it is plural feminine. Hunna is plural feminine to a thinking being.

Are you referring to the very rule you have been rejecting? Feminine single form pronoun used for a plural non-intelligent female noun? Though you have excused male plurals. But what proof do you have of that? After all, we have Surah Takweer, containing male plural non-intelligent nouns, conjugated as singular feminine. Your position weakens...

Incidentally, jam3 mo2annath salim is a term used for nouns not pronouns, and only those plural nouns which end with an alif and ta2 maftoohah at the end, like muslimaat. For the pronoun hunna, you would say, jam3 mo2annath lil 3oqala2.

[جوري]

Semantics.

That is your prerogative

Oh, but my position, as I was saying, is according to the consensus. At least all the consensus I could find.

That is simply cognitive conservatism.. you've narrowed your search and found what you are looking for!

Just how recent is the discovery of this miracle? Because Tafseer ul-Muneer is a pretty recent publication.

First I read of it, was from Dr. Gary Miller, who studied the Quran for 25 years before converting!

Let me translate this statement. Ha is plural feminine for a non-intelligent, so yes it is plural feminine. Hunna is plural feminine to a thinking being.

Are you referring to the very rule you have been rejecting? Feminine single form pronoun used for a plural non-intelligent female noun? Though you have excused male plurals. But what proof do you have of that? After all, we have Surah Takweer, containing male plural non-intelligent nouns, conjugated as singular feminine. Your position weakens...

Incidentally, jam3 mo2annath salim is a term used for nouns not pronouns, and only those plural nouns which end with an alif and ta2 maftoohah at the end, like muslimaat. For the pronoun hunna, you would say, jam3 mo2annath lil 3oqala2.

I have included an entire link above to Arabic grammar, and as stated prior I don't wish to descend to word play of what you think you've mustered in the classroom last night!

:w:

[Faye]

on feminine and masculine in Arabic grammar

المذكر والمؤنث



الاسم: مذكّر أو مؤنث. مثال المذكر: [رجل] و[كتاب].

فأما الأول: [رجل]، فمذكر حقيقي، لأن له مؤنثاً من جنسه. وأمّا الثاني: [كتاب]، فمذكر غير حقيقي، إذ ليس له مؤنث من جنسه، وإنما اصطلح أبناء اللغة على اعتباره مذكراً.

ومثال المؤنث: [امرأة] و[دار].

فأمّا الأول: [امرأة] فمؤنث حقيقي، لأن له مذكراً من جنسه. وأمّا الثاني: [دار] فمؤنث غير حقيقي، إذ ليس له مذكر من جنسه، وإنما اصطلح أبناء اللغة على اعتباره مؤنثاً.

ملاحظات عظيمة القيمة:

1- يغلب على الاسم المؤنث أن تلحق آخره: ألفٌ مقصورة مثل: [سلمى]، أو ألفٌ ممدودة مثل [حسناء]، أو تاء مربوطة مثل: [خديجة].

2- في اللغة أسماءٌ، سُمِع عن العرب تذكيرها وتأنيثها، منها: [السبيل- الحيّة - العنق - الطريق...]، ولذلك تقول: هذا أو هذه سبيل، وهذا أو هذه حيّة، وهذا أو هذه عنق، وهذا أو هذه طريق،...

3- للإناث حالات مقصورة عليهنّ، لا يشاركهن فيها الذكور، كالحَيْض والإتْآم(1) والطلاق... وأوصافُهنّ في هذه الحالات لا تلحقها التاء، فلا يقال مثلاً: هذه امرأة حائضة أو مُتْئِمة أو طالقة... بل يقال: امرأة حائِض أو مُتْئِم أو طالق(2)...

4- في العربية صفات استعملتها العرب للمذكر والمؤنث بلفظ واحد، مثل: صبور، حنون، جريح، قتيل... فقالوا: رجل صبور وامرأة صبور- ورجل جريح وامرأة جريح...

وقد بحث النحاة واللغويون في هذا قديماً، وذكروا أوزانه، ومواضع استعماله، وما شذ منه وما استثني... حتى إذا كان العصر الحديث، وقف مجمع اللغة العربية بالقاهرة عند هذه المسألة وبحث فيها، ثم خلص من ذلك إلى أن أجاز لحاقَ تاء التأنيث، كلَّ مؤنّث من الصفات. وبناء على ذلك يجوز أن يقال اليوم: رجل صبور وامرأة صبورة، ورجل جريح وامرأة جريحة، ورجل معطار وامرأة معطارة، ورجل معطير وامرأة معطيرة(3) ...


فمَن شاء أن يسلك اليوم هذا السبيل السهل فلا لوم عليه، ولا يعاب قوله. ومن شاء أن يأخذ بالطريقة القديمة، وهي الفصيحة

http://www.reefnet.gov.sy/education/kafaf/index.html

I already know this. Your point?

[Faye]

I have included an entire link above to Arabic grammar, and as stated prior I don't wish to descend to word play of what you think you've mustered in the classroom last night!

:w:

A thread debating grammar is all about 'word play'. What else can we talk about here?

[جوري]

I already know this. Your point?

I have seen no grammar links from your person, as is to why I posted here well you yourself stated in your subsequent post, this thread is about words (which I contend is the purpose of it) however, I have linked it to those interested in learning Arabic grammar and not necessarily for your person, as you can see, I didn't quote you in the process, denoting that it isn't directed at you!

[جوري]

A thread debating grammar is all about 'word play'. What else can we talk about here?

The thread is in fact about your exegetical examination of Quranic text. where you are neither an Islamic scholar nor an Arabic speaker to muster either with adeptness!


:w:

[جوري]

Butoon is masculine plural.
Ha is singular feminine, not plural feminine. Plural feminine is Hunna..

Let me translate this statement. Ha is plural feminine for a non-intelligent, so yes it is plural feminine. Hunna is plural feminine to a thinking being.

.

BTW not that I want to be a b**** or anything, but since you are speaking of ones position weakening, which one of your two previous posts is correct? when you hasten to show error you might just fall into it yourself.. and in the process detract from your reliability...

I am not saying you are wrong in some of what you have shared, but I dislike your style.. it hasn't an ounce of humility, nor a willingness to accept opposition, yeild to the possibility to a counter opinion even when examples are given... which makes me really lose interest!


:w:

[جوري]

anyhow... today is jum3a and I feel as if I have misused it, I am sorry if I offended you in any of my posts!

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

[Faye]

BTW not that I want to be a b**** or anything, but since you are speaking of ones position weakening, which one of your two previous posts is correct? when you hasten to show error you might just fall into it yourself.. and in the process detract from your reliability...

One post is a translation of the Arabic words you used in your post. The other is my own opinion.

I am not saying you are wrong in some of what you have shared,

Are you saying I am right????

but I dislike your style.. it hasn't an ounce of humility, nor a willingness to accept opposition, yeild to the possibility to a counter opinion even when examples are given... which makes me really lose interest!


:w:

I am sorry, but the point is that the day I saw this thread, I considered the Naml ayat, implications and so on before posting. As for humility, am I not your equal? You're supposed to show humility to Allah, not each other (I think). As for the counter arguments, I considered each of them seriously, and responded to them. In the beginning I was not aware of the multiple stomachs stuff and when that came to light, I was willing to change my position until it became obvious that they were two stomachs, not plural in the Arabic sense.

As for not being willing to accept opposition, well this is not a vague theoretical matter to me in which no defined answer can be reached. In Pakistani Madrassas they teach Nahw (grammar) like they teach Math in schools, everything clearcut, precise and defined by rules. Would you accept it if somebody claimed 2+2=5, or even make a compromise on it along the lines of, you are entitled to your opinion, or, you might possibly be true? It just is wrong.

But maybe I'm just argumentative.

[Faye]

anyhow... today is jum3a and I feel as if I have misused it, I am sorry if I offended you in any of my posts!

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

All forgiven on my part. Forgive me too, please?

[Faye]

I have seen no grammar links from your person, as is to why I posted here well you yourself stated in your subsequent post, this thread is about words (which I contend is the purpose of it) however, I have linked it to those interested in learning Arabic grammar and not necessarily for your person, as you can see, I didn't quote you in the process, denoting that it isn't directed at you!

Oh sorry, I misunderstood.

[kay106]

All forgiven on my part. Forgive me too, please?

I am sorry if I have offended you sis. Forgive me to, you are entitled your opinion, but its wrong!

the sister pointed out that naml is plural, and then followed by idkhouli. you are saying that singular femanine verb is used to refer to plural of non thinking objects. then why isn't idhkholee, instead of idhkhoulou, not used?

it is very clear sis, that the bees are female. I was being very objective by starting this thread. I have concluded its is blatently refering to the female bees. Anyway, forgive me for getting angry.

bye:-)

[Faye]

The thread is in fact about your exegetical examination of Quranic text. where you are neither an Islamic scholar nor an Arabic speaker to muster either with adeptness!


:w:

I am halfway through the studies needed to become an 'aalimah (Islamic Scholar), though I'm not done yet. But our Arabic syllabus should be done this time next year. I thought you understood that I was in a Madrassa, sister. And I do speak Arabic, though I am not a native speaker.

As my grammar 'wordplay' does not change presently used and respected translations, I don't think this applies.

[Faye]

I am sorry if I have offended you sis. Forgive me to, you are entitled your opinion, but its wrong!

the sister pointed out that naml is plural, and then followed by idkhouli. you are saying that singular femanine is used to refer to plural of non thinking objects. then why isn't idhkholee, instead of idhkhoulou, not used?

it is very clear sis, that the bees are female. I was being very objective by starting this thread. I have concluded its is blatently refering to the female bees. Anyway, forgive me for getting angry.

bye:-)

Forgiven.

[جوري]

All forgiven on my part. Forgive me too, please?

Of course ukhty.. I hate to be this way with a Muslim (believe me I am never that way with a Muslim).. I may have been displacing anger I had toward other members on you and I am sorry
I like to adhere to this verse

أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ

48:29----------strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.----------


:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

It seems we haven't reached a conclusion..

[kay106]

It seems we haven't reached a conclusion..

the bees are female, i started this thread and this is the conclusion i have drawn, with clear evidence. not from my vain desires. hope all you guys do the same.

[Whatsthepoint]

the bees are female, i started this thread and this is the conclusion i have drawn, with clear evidence. not from my vain desires. hope all you guys do the same.

This is the conclusion you have drawn...

[Whatsthepoint]

Multiple bellies:

The honeybee's got two stomachs, the verse uses plural even though it should be dual.
The verse says:
There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues
So if we are to consider belly = stomach, only one stomach fits in the verse, the honey-making-and-storing stomach, so in fact singular should be used, as honey comes from one stomach only.
That is of course if belly even equals stomach, it does in English, it doesn't in certain other languages, so my question is, can belly be used as a synonym for stomach in Arabic?

That's not splitting hair.

[kay106]

Multiple bellies:

The honeybee's got two stomachs, the verse uses plural even though it should be dual.
The verse says:
There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues
So if we are to consider belly = stomach, only one stomach fits in the verse, the honey-making-and-storing stomach, so in fact singular should be used, as honey comes from one stomach only.
That is of course if belly even equals stomach, it does in English, it doesn't in certain other languages, so my question is, can belly be used as a synonym for stomach in Arabic?

That's not splitting hair.

So are you agreeing that the bees are female, but it is the belly issue you are having trouble with?

[Whatsthepoint]

So are you agreeing that the bees are female, but it is the belly issue you are having trouble with?

It's the belly issue that makes me believe the bees are plural, with no gender attached, that's what Faye has been saying all along.

[kay106]

Of course ukhty.. I hate to be this way with a Muslim (believe me I am never that way with a Muslim).. I may have been displacing anger I had toward other members on you and I am sorry
I like to adhere to this verse

أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ

48:29----------strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.----------


:w:

butuniha, is this dual or plural?

[kay106]

It's the belly issue that makes me believe the bees are plural, with no gender attached, that's what Faye has been saying all along.

i know what she has been saying.

[Whatsthepoint]

butuniha, is this dual or plural?

Its plural. It means her/their bellies.

[kay106]

Its plural. It means her/their bellies.

how do you know?

[Whatsthepoint]

how do you know?

Because both Faye and Skye agreed upon it, they didn't agree whether bootooniha translates to her or their bellies, but its bellies nevertheless.

[جوري]

bootinha is jama3 mo'anath as stated above plural feminine.. perhaps you've missed it?.. I had unsubscribed to this topic, only to find it again lol

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

bootinha is jama3 mo'anath as stated above plural feminine.. perhaps you've missed it?.. I had unsubscribed to this topic, only to find it again lol

cheers

What do you mean plural feminine?
Faye said that batn (belly) is masculine. Do nouns change gender depending on the number?

[جوري]

Not on the number but the conjugation bootoniha is feminine, botonihim mascuiline, it is all up there, I am not going to turn this into another 11 pages of reiteration..
if interested in learning Arabic why not enroll in a class? or start by the link I posted on previous page..

peace

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Please be careful, don't waste the pages. Its seem continues to debate without knowledge. Please ask the scholars and it is only way to getting the answers.

[جوري]

'whatisthepoint' is somewhat interested in psychology and likes to use this method called 'trap questions' where the questioner is usually presumptuous and repetitive, in the process he gets 'contradictory answers' a general interplay on each individual's level of education and in using the rhetorical device trips people, so that at some point they will answer the question incorrectly, and he can in the practice affirm his own psychology which is to maintain a certain level of cognitive conservatism when not open for things contradictory from his own beliefs!
An example and you may have seen this at subpar institutions where they ask true or false q's
Do you have an abusive father?
a series of other questions
Has your father ever abused you?
a series of other questions
Do you feel hurt when your father punishes you?

You are going to answer one of those questions in a way that contradicts the other and they pounce on that....

Questions of this nature are inappropriate, aren't productive, and wasteful of everyone's time, unfortunately not everyone is aware of it, or the purpose behind.. it certainly works for places such as guantanamo, where they accuse people of terrorism and then give out a series of questions to later affirm the 'questioner/accuser's beliefs' rather than seek some sort of truth and hurridly hand it to the media for mass brain washing!...

Do you personally see why I don't enjoy engaging in such debates? It isn't a matter of having the correct answer, it is that the questioner has no interest in the correct answer!

:w:

[kay106]

bootinha is jama3 mo'anath as stated above plural feminine.. perhaps you've missed it?.. I had unsubscribed to this topic, only to find it again lol

cheers

So butuniha means their [female] bellies, is that what you are saying?

[جوري]

So butuniha means their [female] bellies, is that what you are saying?

bootoniha is jama3 mo'anath = feminine plural!

:w:

[Faye]

on feminine and masculine in Arabic grammar

المذكر والمؤنث



الاسم: مذكّر أو مؤنث. مثال المذكر: [رجل] و[كتاب].

فأما الأول: [رجل]، فمذكر حقيقي، لأن له مؤنثاً من جنسه. وأمّا الثاني: [كتاب]، فمذكر غير حقيقي، إذ ليس له مؤنث من جنسه، وإنما اصطلح أبناء اللغة على اعتباره مذكراً.

ومثال المؤنث: [امرأة] و[دار].

فأمّا الأول: [امرأة] فمؤنث حقيقي، لأن له مذكراً من جنسه. وأمّا الثاني: [دار] فمؤنث غير حقيقي، إذ ليس له مذكر من جنسه، وإنما اصطلح أبناء اللغة على اعتباره مؤنثاً.

ملاحظات عظيمة القيمة:

1- يغلب على الاسم المؤنث أن تلحق آخره: ألفٌ مقصورة مثل: [سلمى]، أو ألفٌ ممدودة مثل [حسناء]، أو تاء مربوطة مثل: [خديجة].

2- في اللغة أسماءٌ، سُمِع عن العرب تذكيرها وتأنيثها، منها: [السبيل- الحيّة - العنق - الطريق...]، ولذلك تقول: هذا أو هذه سبيل، وهذا أو هذه حيّة، وهذا أو هذه عنق، وهذا أو هذه طريق،...

3- للإناث حالات مقصورة عليهنّ، لا يشاركهن فيها الذكور، كالحَيْض والإتْآم(1) والطلاق... وأوصافُهنّ في هذه الحالات لا تلحقها التاء، فلا يقال مثلاً: هذه امرأة حائضة أو مُتْئِمة أو طالقة... بل يقال: امرأة حائِض أو مُتْئِم أو طالق(2)...

4- في العربية صفات استعملتها العرب للمذكر والمؤنث بلفظ واحد، مثل: صبور، حنون، جريح، قتيل... فقالوا: رجل صبور وامرأة صبور- ورجل جريح وامرأة جريح...

وقد بحث النحاة واللغويون في هذا قديماً، وذكروا أوزانه، ومواضع استعماله، وما شذ منه وما استثني... حتى إذا كان العصر الحديث، وقف مجمع اللغة العربية بالقاهرة عند هذه المسألة وبحث فيها، ثم خلص من ذلك إلى أن أجاز لحاقَ تاء التأنيث، كلَّ مؤنّث من الصفات. وبناء على ذلك يجوز أن يقال اليوم: رجل صبور وامرأة صبورة، ورجل جريح وامرأة جريحة، ورجل معطار وامرأة معطارة، ورجل معطير وامرأة معطيرة(3) ...


فمَن شاء أن يسلك اليوم هذا السبيل السهل فلا لوم عليه، ولا يعاب قوله. ومن شاء أن يأخذ بالطريقة القديمة، وهي الفصيحة

http://www.reefnet.gov.sy/education/kafaf/index.html

Translation:

Masculine and Feminine

Noun: is either masculine or feminine. Example of masculine nouns: a man (rajolun) and a book (kitaabun).

The first (rajolun) is a real masculine noun, because a feminine for its type exists. As for the second (kitaabun), it is not a real masculine noun, as no feminine for its type exist. But grammarians define it as masculine.

Example of feminine nouns: a woman (imra2atun) and a house (daarun).

The first (imra2atun) is a real feminine noun, because a masculine for its type exists. As for the second (daarun), it is not a real feminine noun, as no masculine for its type exist. But grammarians define it as feminine.

Important Points:
1. Most feminine nouns have alif maqsoorah at the end (written as a ya, pronounced as alif) like Salma, or alif mamdoodah at the end (alif followed by hamzah and preceded by a fathah) like Hasanaa2, or ta2 marbooTah at the end like Khadijah.
2. There are some nouns which are used by the Arab as both masculine and feminine. Examples are Sabeel (path), Hayyah (snake), 3onoq (neck) and Tareeq (road). Thus both masculine and feminine forms maybe used with them.
3. There are some conditions found only in females, which males do not share with them, like HayZ (menstruation), It2aam (widowhood) and Talaaq (divorce), and adjectives made from these words do not have a ta2 at their end. So you do not say, This is a Ha2iZah (menstruating) or Mo3timah (widowed) or Taaliqah (divorced) woman, but you say This is a Ha2iz (menstruating), or Mo3tim (widowed) or Taaliq (divorced) woman.
4. There are those adjectives which the Arabs use to refer to both females and males, without any change. Examples Saboorun (patient), Hanoonun (loving, affectionate in a motherly manner), Jareehun (injured), Qateelun (dead). So they say a Hanoonun (loving) man and a Hanoonun woman, and an injured (jareehun) man and a jareehun woman.

The last para says that grammarians have debated the matter and concluded that in present day language, it is all right to put a ta2 modawwarah at the end of any feminine adjective. So whoever wishes to use this easy way, may do so and his language will not be considered incorrect, and whoever wishes to keep to the old style may do so, and the old style is more correct.

The last para I did not translate at all literally, just gave the basic meaning.

[جوري]

The last para I did not translate at all literally, just gave the basic meaning.

You should actually start a section here if you have the time to teach folks basic Arabic grammar and rules and in the process I think would cement what you also know, sometimes dear brs and srs here approach me by PM for translation of some passages which might be beneficial to one but not all, I really think a section as such would be of great benefit.. I unfortunately don't have the time to expend that I would like to in order to have ikhlas in teaching because of my other obligations.. I seem to lose patience fast with anything that requires more of me than what I personally think it is worth..

So every day you can have a section of jama3 aljam3, or jama3 mo;anath, or things that can be used both in masc and fem, different verbs, affiriming a verb by using a verb.. I don't think most people appreciate how rich a language Arabic is or how difficult its basic grammar...

And may Allah reward you for your efforts..

p.s
pls know it is just a suggestion.. I myself hate being trapped into projects where folks oblige me for a prolonged period.. so it is only if you are interested..

:w:

[kay106]

bootoniha is jama3 mo'anath = feminine plural!

:w:

Sorry to bug you sis, but i need to get to the bottom of this.

So butooniha, does this mean her bellies, or their [female] bellies?

[جوري]

Sorry to bug you sis, but i need to get to the bottom of this.

So butooniha, does this mean her bellies, or their [female] bellies?

Yes!
Honey does come from the female belly!

:w:

[kay106]

Yes!
Honey does come from the female belly!

:w:

so is it her bellies? not their [female] bellies?

[جوري]

it is plural!

:w:

[kay106]

it is plural!

:w:

meaning "their [female] bellies"? Sorry sis, I am not very intelligent.

[جوري]

yes their female bellies.... although and I don't wish to get colourful I have linked to the fact that the honey bee has two stomachs.. so at this point I suggest you take the matter with a scholar either on
http://askthescholar.com/

or http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S.../FatwaCounselE

I am not a scholar in Islamic text and have only a portion of the Quran memorized.. I am really in no position to offer specific exegetical interpretation.. I only give you an answer as I understand it..

:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

'whatisthepoint' is somewhat interested in psychology and likes to use this method called 'trap questions' where the questioner is usually presumptuous and repetitive, in the process he gets 'contradictory answers' a general interplay on each individual's level of education and in using the rhetorical device trips people, so that at some point they will answer the question incorrectly, and he can in the practice affirm his own psychology which is to maintain a certain level of cognitive conservatism when not open for things contradictory from his own beliefs!

lol!
I've never heard of this particular method and certainly haven't been using it, at least not consciously.
I am simply asking question, I may repeat them if I do not get an adequate reply (which in your case happens a lot), the second and the third question might be different based on the replies you have given me.
I may have pointed to inconsistencies in yours or someone else's replies, but that doesn't mean that the only reason I asked the questions was to find inconsistencies.
I am not using any rhetorical devices, again not consciously. I'd like you to point out to a rhetorical device I used.

[Whatsthepoint]

yes their female bellies.... although and I don't wish to get colourful I have linked to the fact that the honey bee has two stomachs..

You said you don't like repetivie questions, but you haven answered this:

The honeybee's got two stomachs, the verse uses plural even though it should be dual. You said dual for her/their bellies doesn't exist, how so?
The verse says:
There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues
So if we are to consider belly = stomach, only one stomach fits in the verse, the honey-making-and-storing stomach, so in fact singular should be used, as honey comes from one stomach only.
That is of course if belly even equals stomach, it does in English, it doesn't in certain other languages, so my question is, can belly be used as a synonym for stomach in Arabic?
That's not splitting hair.

[جوري]

lol!
I've never heard of this particular method and certainly haven't been using it, at least not consciously.
I am simply asking question, I may repeat them if I do not get an adequate reply (which in your case happens a lot), the second and the third question might be different based on the replies you have given me.
I may have pointed to inconsistencies in yours or someone else's replies, but that doesn't mean that the only reason I asked the questions was to find inconsistencies.
I am not using any rhetorical devices, again not consciously. I'd like you to point out to a rhetorical device I used.

reapeating the same question different style ad nauseam is a very well known device used by some psychologists.. and it is a ridiculous method to elicit a reply...
at this stage I'll advise you to do the same thing I advised Kay.. I have linked to two sites where you can ask the scholar about specific exegesis..

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes!
Honey does come from the female belly!

I'm gonna ask a question.
I'm not gonna enroll in an arabic class in the near future, so this forum is the only place where I can ask arabic question, which I don't find bad, that's what web forums are for.
The article Faye translated doesn't answered this, except of course if batn (belly) fits in both-masculine-and-feminine category.

bootooniha is supposed to be feminine plural.
batn on the other hand is masculine.
You said the conjugation is feminine.
What exactly did you mean by "conjugation"? because conjugation is a verb not a noun thing.

You must understand that your replies are often confusing, so I keep on questioning. I'm not doing it to confuse you or anyone.

2. Does the fact that bellies are feminine necessarily mean that they belong to a feminine bee? This question may seem absurd but I have to ask it based on the information I have gotten from your person so far.

[Whatsthepoint]

reapeating the same question different style ad nauseam is a very well known device used by some psychologists.. and it is a ridiculous method to elicit a reply...
at this stage I'll advise you to do the same thing I advised Kay.. I have linked to two sites where you can ask the scholar about specific exegesis..

peace

I'm not a psycholigisty and I told you why I repeat certain question, I just don't give up that easily, like yourself I guess.
Asking a scholar takes time and you can't debate with them.

[جوري]

I'm gonna ask a question.
I'm not gonna enroll in an arabic class in the near future, so this forum is the only place where I can ask arabic question, which I don't find bad, that's what web forums are for.
The article Faye translated doesn't answered this, except of course if batn (belly) fits in both-masculine-and-feminine category.

batn by itself has no gender it is the noun prior to giving it a gender
from fay's post to the arabic article I linked!

2. There are some nouns which are used by the Arab as both masculine and feminine. Examples are Sabeel (path), Hayyah (snake), 3onoq (neck) and Tareeq (road). Thus both masculine and feminine forms maybe used with them.

bootooniha is supposed to be feminine plural.

yes

batn on the other hand is masculine.

see quote above by faye to Arabic link I posted

You said the conjugation is feminine.
What exactly did you mean by "conjugation"? because conjugation is a verb not a noun thing.

in Arabic we have no 'it' we must engender those as well, look at the translated page and you'll see things must take the fem or masc. few exceptions are listed

You must understand that your replies are often confusing, so I keep on questioning. I'm not doing it to confuse you or anyone.

It is because most folks start with basic grammar not jump into exegesis..

like in french you need first to learn basic parts
j'ai parle
tu as parle
ila a parle
elle a parle
vous avez parle
ils ont parle
elles ont parle
all before you get into Puis mangez de toute espèce de fruits, et suivez les sentiers de votre Seigneur, rendus faciles pour vous. De leur ventre, sort une liqueur, aux couleurs variées, dans laquelle il y a une guérison pour les gens. Il y a vraiment là une preuve pour des gens qui réfléchissent.

2. Does the fact that bellies are feminine necessarily mean that they belong to a feminine bee? This question may seem absurd but I have to ask it based on the information I have gotten from your person so far.

Ask yourself a question, does honey come from the belly of a female or the male bee? once you have established that part the whole verse will make sense!

peace!

[Faye]

The male/female-ness of the belly doesn't matter.

What actually matters is the male/female-ness of the owner of the belly, referred to as 'ha', in the word butooni-ha, which comprises of a noun (butoon) and a pronoun (ha) occurring in a manner which indicates posession of the first (stomach) by the second (ha)

It is agreed that 'ha' is feminine singular according to conjugation (I think. If anybody disagrees, say so). According to Skye, it is feminine plural in meaning, and according to me it is plural genderless in meaning.

[Whatsthepoint]

Thanks, that was a very good reply!:)

batn by itself has no gender it is the noun prior to giving it a gender
from fay's post to the arabic article I linked!

Sa Faye was wrong saying batn is masculine.

like in french you need first to learn basic parts
j'ai parlé/parlée
tu as parlé/parlée
il a parlé
elle a parlé
vous avez parlés/parlées
ils ont parlés
elles ont parlées

Indeed you do.:D:-[

Ask yourself a question, does honey come from the belly of a female or the male bee? once you have established that part the whole verse will make sense!

It comes from a female's belly, which is a whole different thing than a grammatically feminine belly.
But if the belly can be both feminine and masculine you may have a point.

[Whatsthepoint]

The male/female-ness of the belly doesn't matter.

What actually matters is the male/female-ness of the owner of the belly, referred to as 'ha', in the word butooni-ha, which comprises of a noun (butoon) and a pronoun (ha) occurring in a manner which indicates posession of the first (stomach) by the second (ha)

It is agreed that 'ha' is feminine singular according to conjugation (I think. If anybody disagrees, say so). According to Skye, it is feminine plural in meaning, and according to me it is plural genderless in meaning.

Yours sounds more logical, though I'm not sure logic can be applied when studying a foreign language..

[جوري]

is a whole different thing than a grammatically feminine belly.
But if the belly can be both feminine and masculine you may have a point.

Batn (belly)
batni (my belly)
batnoho (his belly)
batanak (your belly)
batnaha(her belly)
bootoniunna( plural feminine) to thinking females
(bootoniha( plural feminine) to nonthinking (it)
bootonihim ( masculine but to me can be used for both male and females) like in the verse of ants idkholuo rather than idkhouli

It has been a while since I did grammar so you are free to take all this with a grain of salt..

peace

[Faye]

Important Points:
1. Most feminine nouns have alif maqsoorah at the end (written as a ya, pronounced as alif) like Salma, or alif mamdoodah at the end (alif followed by hamzah and preceded by a fathah) like Hasanaa2, or ta2 marbooTah at the end like Khadijah.
2. There are some nouns which are used by the Arab as both masculine and feminine. Examples are Sabeel (path), Hayyah (snake), 3onoq (neck) and Tareeq (road). Thus both masculine and feminine forms maybe used with them.
3. There are some conditions found only in females, which males do not share with them, like HayZ (menstruation), It2aam (widowhood) and Talaaq (divorce), and adjectives made from these words do not have a ta2 at their end. So you do not say, This is a Ha2iZah (menstruating) or Mo3timah (widowed) or Taaliqah (divorced) woman, but you say This is a Ha2iz (menstruating), or Mo3tim (widowed) or Taaliq (divorced) woman.
4. There are those adjectives which the Arabs use to refer to both females and males, without any change. Examples Saboorun (patient), Hanoonun (loving, affectionate in a motherly manner), Jareehun (injured), Qateelun (dead). So they say a Hanoonun (loving) man and a Hanoonun woman, and an injured (jareehun) man and a jareehun woman.

Explanation for this article.
All nouns in Arabic have a gender, male or female. There are some nouns which are intrinsically female, or intrinsically male, because they refer to a male or female person, or to a male or female animal.
Most nouns have an indication at the end indicating femininty, if they are feminine and the lack of such indication is taken as an indication of masculinity.
All other nouns are genderless (it) according to meaning, but are conjugated as either masculine or feminine according to grammar, which does not effect its meaning. Among these are those adjective which are by indication male, but used for both sexes and can be conjugated as either, and those nouns which are by indication male but used only for females.

By the conjugation of a noun, I mean that the pronouns, adjectives and verb forms will be according to what it is conjugated as.

BaTn = stomach is among the genderless nouns, and whatever it is conjugated as will not affect the meaning.

[Faye]

Sa Faye was wrong saying batn is masculine.

BaTn is masculine according to conjugation, and 'it' according to meaning. But that, as I said in my previous post, is irrelevant.

It comes from a female's belly, which is a whole different thing than a grammatically feminine belly.
But if the belly can be both feminine and masculine you may have a point.

How can a belly be feminine or masculine in any way other than grammatically? A belly is a belly is a belly. Only people or animals have actual sexes.

[Faye]

Batn (belly)
batn-i (my belly)
batn-oho (his belly)
batan-ak (your belly)
batna-ha(her belly)
booton-iunna( plural feminine) to thinking females
(booton-iha( plural feminine) to nonthinking (it)
booton-ihim ( masculine but to me can be used for both male and females) like in the verse of ants idkholuo rather than idkhouli

It has been a while since I did grammar so you are free to take all this with a grain of salt..

peace

Finally something we can agree on whole heartedly.

I added (-)s to Skye's quote to clarify that what comes after the (-) is the pronoun to whom it belongs to.

BTW, I agree about the pronoun 'him'. It is used for a group of males, or a group containing males and females.

[Whatsthepoint]

[QUOTE]

BaTn is masculine according to conjugation, and 'it' according to meaning. But that, as I said in my previous post, is irrelevant.

Can you conjugate it to be grammatically feminine?
Does bootoniha imply that the belly (without possesive pronouns) is feminine in any way?
I think that's what Skyw is trying to say..

[جوري]

Can you conjugate it to be grammatically feminine?
Does bootoniha imply that the belly (without possesive pronouns) is feminine in any way?
I think that's what Skyw is trying to say..

The problem is you think of 'belly' by itself as fem or masc. when fay already explained to you, it is the one who possesses the belly that is engendered, in Arabic you can combine two words in one so instead of me saying (she ate) as an example. I can say (akalat), the eating isn't fem. or masc., but the implication is the one who ate is female..

do you understand?

[Whatsthepoint]

The problem is you think of 'belly' by itself as fem or masc. when fay already explained to you, it is the one who possesses the belly that is engendered, in Arabic you can combine two words in one so instead of me saying (she ate) as an example. I can say (akalat), the eating isn't fem. or masc., but the implication is the one who ate is female..

do you understand?

I suspected that's what you were trying to say by feminine singular.
I think I get it now. The belly is not engendered, however the possesive pronoun is, I thought that all along (except that I thought belly was masculine).
What bothered me is the terminology. In most languages a belly belonging to a woman is still a belly, the gender doesn't change, so your saying bootoniha is plural feminine confused me.

Well, we still haven't concluded /though we could..) whether the bee is feminine singular or genderless plural and that's all that matters with this alleged miracle.

[Faye]

You should actually start a section here if you have the time to teach folks basic Arabic grammar and rules and in the process I think would cement what you also know, sometimes dear brs and srs here approach me by PM for translation of some passages which might be beneficial to one but not all, I really think a section as such would be of great benefit.. I unfortunately don't have the time to expend that I would like to in order to have ikhlas in teaching because of my other obligations.. I seem to lose patience fast with anything that requires more of me than what I personally think it is worth..

So every day you can have a section of jama3 aljam3, or jama3 mo;anath, or things that can be used both in masc and fem, different verbs, affiriming a verb by using a verb.. I don't think most people appreciate how rich a language Arabic is or how difficult its basic grammar...

And may Allah reward you for your efforts..

p.s
pls know it is just a suggestion.. I myself hate being trapped into projects where folks oblige me for a prolonged period.. so it is only if you are interested..

:w:

I will think about it, but just a lecture in grammar is insufficient. You need to practice it to be able to remember it when you need it.

And teaching is hard.

[جوري]

I suspected that's what you were trying to say by feminine singular.
I think I get it now. The belly is not engendered, however the possesive pronoun is, I thought that all along (except that I thought belly was masculine).
What bothered me is the terminology. In most languages a belly belonging to a woman is still a belly, the gender doesn't change, so your saying bootoniha is plural feminine confused me.

Well, we still haven't concluded /though we could..) whether the bee is feminine singular or genderless plural and that's all that matters with this alleged miracle.

I think if you'll focus on a word you'll miss the whole point of the verse, aside from in whose belly the honey is produced, just looking at the whole chemistry and engineering behind it, is the actual miracle, which is what the Quran generally asks you to do.. look at the mathematical shape behind the hive

the differences in color a result of the different flowers


its useages in healing people, and ability to fight deadly disease

honey is showing potential against deadly hospital super bugs like MRSA
Honey may take the sting out of the NHS superbugs
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...superbugs.html
http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/na...ugs-00622.html

etc etc.. the verse is full of miracles in essence asking you to reflect on the whole package if you are going to fixate on one thing, you'll have missed the whole point, and in general I find this to be true of most atheists on board...

To understand science is to find God!

peace

[جوري]

I will think about it, but just a lecture in grammar is insufficient. You need to practice it to be able to remember it when you need it.

And teaching is hard.

true and doubly true for the latter, I think I'd be a very abusive teacher, I don't have alot of patience especially when I just don't understand how someone can't get it? I feel like they are faking it or something just to annoy me........

:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

Honeybees and honey are truly amazing and may imply a creator or something, but that is not the point here.
The verse itself, if it doesn't say the honey-producing honeybees are female, isn't miraculous. The healing properties of honey have been know to man a long time before Islam, so were the different colors.
Even if the verse is not miraculous (which I believe it isn't), it is still nice (to muslims probably even more so) and very useful.

[Faye]

[quote=Whatsthepoint;986813]

Can you conjugate it to be grammatically feminine?
Does bootoniha imply that the belly (without possesive pronouns) is feminine in any way?
I think that's what Skyw is trying to say..

The ha is the posessive pronoun. Without it, it would be Butoon, simply meaning bellies.

Bellies are it by meaning but by conjugation, I would say feminine singular (beacause it is plural of non-intelligent, non-animate). Still, this has no bearing on the discussion.

[جوري]

Honeybees and honey are truly amazing and may imply a creator or something, but that is not the point here.
The verse itself, if it doesn't say the honey-producing honeybees are female, isn't miraculous. The healing properties of honey have been know to man a long time before Islam, so were the different colors.
Even if the verse is not miraculous (which I believe it isn't), it is still nice (to muslims probably even more so) and very useful.

that is the thing.. if you get it, it is very profound, and if you don't.. you'll pass it off as any other text..

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

that is the thing.. if you get it, it is very profound, and if you don't.. you'll pass it off as any other text..

peace

Well, Religious people probably have a bias for their religion's texts. You may find all Quranic verse deep, profound etc and think this is an objective fact, though it probybla isn't (but it may be). Christians find bible the same, Hindus feel the same about Vedas...
I believe every religious text has its share of interesting verses or chapters, however presently I don't think any of them comes from god.

[جوري]

Well, Religious people probably have a bias for their religion's texts. You may find all Quranic verse deep, profound etc and think this is an objective fact, though it probybla isn't (but it may be). Christians find bible the same, Hindus feel the same about Vedas...
I believe every religious text has its share of interesting verses or chapters, however presently I don't think any of them comes from god.

Maybe I have bias, or maybe I just did alot of reading and research...
you never know until it is all over

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Maybe I have bias, or maybe I just did alot of reading and research...
you never know until it is all over

peace

I said maybe, I always do. Maybe that's why you think I use some kind of psychological interrogation method.:-[
Yeah, you never know, that's why I am neither a theist nor an atheist.
But I don't like it when religious people (muslims and everyone else) use their religious texts and claim they're scientifically miraculous. I can admit some of so called miracles are interesting or inexplicable, but some are rubbish and I want to expose that rubbish.

[Faye]

Maybe I have bias, or maybe I just did alot of reading and research...
you never know until it is all over

peace

I know I have a bias. When it finally comes down to it, my belief in Islam is not based on reading or research, though those do help to strengthen it.

[جوري]

I said maybe, I always do. Maybe that's why you think I use some kind of psychological interrogation method.:-[
Yeah, you never know, that's why I am neither a theist nor an atheist.
But I don't like it when religious people (muslims and everyone else) use their religious texts and claim they're scientifically miraculous. I can admit some of so called miracles are interesting or inexplicable, but some are rubbish and I want to expose that rubbish.

But do you see how you are inept at best at exposing 'rubbish' I mean simple explanations escape you that you have to protract a reply for pages...also, it is only a psychological interrogation if the other party isn't aware of it, not when the other party is annoyed by it!

Also what exactly are your expectations of forums, when you visit a forum dealing with quantum physics surely you don't expect a recipe for homemade apple pie?
Like wise on an Islamic forum, folks will be discussing all sorts of Islamic topics of relevance and no relevance..

It is best to listen and read more than draw half-arsed conclusions and protract them...

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

But do you see how you are inept at best at exposing 'rubbish' I mean simple explanations escape you that you have to protract a reply for pages...also, it is only a psychological interrogation if the other party isn't aware of it, not when the other party is annoyed by it!
It is best to listen and read more than draw half-arsed conclusions and protract them...

peace

Well, you confused me a great deal, not intentionally I guess. It was all clear till you came, but in the end the the facts are the same as they were on page one.
I don't thing we're compatible when it comes to debating.
I'm not really relevant to expose this particular piece of rubbish as I don't speak Arabic. But Faye is and she did a great job IMO.

[جوري]

I know I have a bias. When it finally comes down to it, my belief in Islam is not based on reading or research, though those do help to strengthen it.

we all arrive to Allah swt differently.. If I told you some of the stories of the converts I know, you'd not think this reason or that would not be particularly something that moves you, but I believe the Quran addresses all people to their levels and on multiple grounds.

One guy who was a former spanish ambassador was on board a travel yacht, where an egyptian captain simply had a discussion with him about constellations and their mention in the Quran and the man embraced Islam, and the captain married his daughter who incidentally died in 2004, she herself hadn't embraced Islam until much later for reasons entirely different... It doesn't matter how one arrives to the truth, so long as they get there before it is too late..

for me personally and after a prolonged period where I didn't practice or live at all as a Muslim, through my courses of study I couldn't imagine such intricate processes in the human body, in nature in the universe, not having a designer one book in particular interest to me by a Scottish embryologist D'Arcy Thompson called On Growth and Form though not apart of my curriculum was so incredibly profound, in and of itself would annihilate any doubt that science can be a sterile tool divorced from God. Anyhow, shortly afte I concluded God exists! I had to make up my mind what he wants from us, and why we are here, I had to research which religion was right for me, and I am really glad I did that... I am not saying that is the route everyone should goeth.. but it saves me so much of the agony of uncertainty.. I maynot be able to convince someone like the cool cat of my research and analysis, but I believe finding God is ultimately a solo journey !

:w:

[Faye]

:bump:

we all arrive to Allah swt differently.. If I told you some of the stories of the converts I know, you'd not think this reason or that would not be particularly something that moves you, but I believe the Quran addresses all people to their levels and on multiple grounds.

One guy who was a former spanish ambassador was on board a travel yacht, where an egyptian captain simply had a discussion with him about constellations and their mention in the Quran and the man embraced Islam, and the captain married his daughter who incidentally died in 2004, she herself hadn't embraced Islam until much later for reasons entirely different... It doesn't matter how one arrives to the truth, so long as they get there before it is too late..

for me personally and after a prolonged period where I didn't practice or live at all as a Muslim, through my courses of study I couldn't imagine such intricate processes in the human body, in nature in the universe, not having a designer one book in particular interest to me by a Scottish embryologist D'Arcy Thompson called On Growth and Form though not apart of my curriculum was so incredibly profound, in and of itself would annihilate any doubt that science can be a sterile tool divorced from God. Anyhow, shortly afte I concluded God exists! I had to make up my mind what he wants from us, and why we are here, I had to research which religion was right for me, and I am really glad I did that... I am not saying that is the route everyone should goeth.. but it saves me so much of the agony of uncertainty.. I maynot be able to convince someone like the cool cat of my research and analysis, but I believe finding God is ultimately a solo journey !

:w:

Very true.

[kay106]

Well, you confused me a great deal, not intentionally I guess. It was all clear till you came, but in the end the the facts are the same as they were on page one.
I don't thing we're compatible when it comes to debating.
I'm not really relevant to expose this particular piece of rubbish as I don't speak Arabic. But Faye is and she did a great job IMO.

u need to be careful what you call a piece of rubbish, Stop being so stubborn!

You and faye, what you both dont understand is that noun and a verb is different. it is true that for a non intelligent noun, plurals are treated as femanine singluars, but what you cant comprehend, with your biased thickhead is that a verb and a noun is different! verb means an action e.g. eat, build, follow, watch, to write, drink. A noun is a person, place or a thing. e.g. man, woman, cat, dog, truth, beauty, belly, Austria. In other word, a word which names something, or Names of objects and concepts. Go to google and type Define: Verb or define:noun.

faslukee (follow), kulee (eat), and attakhizeea are femanine verbs indicating that the action is carried out by a female, it is not a noun, therefore it is not plural!!!! Get it through to your thickhead, and dont call something a piece of rubbish, without knowledge.

[Whatsthepoint]

u need to be careful what you call a piece of rubbish, Stop being so stubborn!

You and faye, what you both dont understand is that noun and a verb is different. it is true that for a non intelligent noun, plurals are treated as femanine singluars, but what you cant comprehend, with your biased thickhead is that a verb and a noun is different! verb means an action e.g. eat, build, follow, watch, to write, drink. A noun is a person, place or a thing. e.g. man, woman, cat, dog, truth, beauty, Austria. In other word, a word which names something, or Names of objects and concepts. Go to google and type Define: Verb or define:noun.

faslukee (follow), kulee (eat), and attakhizeea are femanine verbs indicating that the action is carried out by a female, it is not a noun, therefore it is not plural!!!! Get it through to your thickhead, and dont call something a piece of rubbish, without knowledge.

I'm not gonna go into grammar again. I know perfectly well what a noun and what a verb is and I believe Faye already explained why verbs are (or can be) feminine.
If the bee is feminine, than there's the belly issue. A bee's only got one belly, it's got two stomachs, but plural is used when it should be dual. The verse says their bellies produce honey, only one stomach does that, so in fact singular should be used.
If bees are plural there's no such issues and you've got a consistent as well as a profound verse, as Skye put it.

[kay106]

I'm not gonna go into grammar again. I know perfectly well what a noun and what a verb is and I believe Faye already explained why verbs are (or can be) feminine.
If the bee is feminine, than there's the belly issue. A bee's only got one belly, it's got two stomachs, but plural is used when it should be dual. The verse says their bellies produce honey, only one stomach does that, so in fact singular should be used.
If bees are plural there's no such issues and you've got a consistent as well as a profound verse, as Skye put it.

I have read in the medina university book 1 that teaches the arabic language course, that "there are rational and irrational nouns, they are also called intelligent and non intelligent...........in singular there is no difference between these two groups. in plural however, there is a very important difference. Plurals or rational NOUNS are treated as plural ..... plurals of irrational NOUNs are treated as femanine singular" [lesson 16]

Butuniha Is plural because it is a noun, do you not understand? The verbs are not nouns nor pronouns.

can somone please verify.

It is not the stomach that produces the honey alone, it is the internal organs.

[Whatsthepoint]

[QUOTE]

I have read in the medina university book 1 that teaches the arabic language course, that "there are rational and irrational nouns, they are also called intelligent and non intelligent...........in singular there is no difference between these two groups. in plural however, there is a very important difference. Plurals or rational NOUNS are treated as plural ..... plurals of irrational NOUNs are treated as femanine singular" [lesson 16]
Butuniha Is plural because it is a noun, do you not understand? The verbs are not nouns nor pronouns.
can somone please verify.

Does your book say that verbs remain plural?

It is not the stomach that produces the honey alone, it is the internal organs.

Perhaps, but internal organs are not bellies.

[جوري]

What is happening here is whatisthepoint is sticking with counter view rather than both arguments presented him, to which he is entitled.. at this point akhi, I wouldn't work myself up about it!
you know what you know, and that is all that matters..

:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

What is happening here is whatisthepoint is sticking with counter view rather than both arguments presented him, to which he is entitled.. at this point akhi, I wouldn't work myself up about it!
you know what you know, and that is all that matters..
:w:

I have considered your and kay's arguments and replied to them.

[جوري]

hence I stated you are entitled to the one that makes most sense to you!

I am off for som cawffeeeee

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

hence I stated you are entitled to the one that makes most sense to you!

I am off for som cawffeeeee

cheers

Ok then.

[Faye]

I have read in the medina university book 1 that teaches the arabic language course, that "there are rational and irrational nouns, they are also called intelligent and non intelligent...........in singular there is no difference between these two groups. in plural however, there is a very important difference. Plurals or rational NOUNS are treated as plural ..... plurals of irrational NOUNs are treated as femanine singular" [lesson 16]

Butuniha Is plural because it is a noun, do you not understand? The verbs are not nouns nor pronouns.

can somone please verify.

It is not the stomach that produces the honey alone, it is the internal organs.

Nice, now we have that rule on somebody's authority other than mine.

But you didn't understand it perfectly. By being treated as feminine singular, it means that the verbs, adjectives and pronouns belonging to that verb will be feminine singular. The debate is on whether the bees are plural or not, not on whether the bellies are plural; everybody agrees that bellies are plural.

We have a non-intelligent noun in the beginning of this Ayat, an-Nahl (the Bee/s), which is an Ism ul-Jins and can be meant to refer to both singular and plural. Let's assume for the moment that it is referring to plural.

Now the verbs referring to that noun, (osluki, ittakhithi and kulee) as well as the pronoun referring to it, (ha, in butooniha) are all singular feminine form. Which, if you return to the rule, should be the case in the plural of a non-intelligent noun.

Now lets consider the other possibility, that an-Nahl refers to a singular male. In this case the verbs should be (osluk, ittakhith and kul) and the pronoun should be (hi, in butoonihi). As this is not the case, we can dismiss this possibility.

Final case is if you assume a not mentioned noun (an-Nahlah=feminine bee) in the text. Then the verbs would be (osluki, ittakhithi and kulee) and the pronoun would be (ha, in butooniha), as is found in the text. However this would create the problem of 3+ bellies per feminine bee. Also, while having non-mentioned nouns in the text is possible, and used, it is not the best syntax.

[kay106]

Nice, now we have that rule on somebody's authority other than mine.

But you didn't understand it perfectly. By being treated as feminine singular, it means that the verbs, adjectives and pronouns belonging to that verb will be feminine singular. The debate is on whether the bees are plural or not, not on whether the bellies are plural; everybody agrees that bellies are plural.

We have a non-intelligent noun in the beginning of this Ayat, an-Nahl (the Bee/s), which is an Ism ul-Jins and can be meant to refer to both singular and plural. Let's assume for the moment that it is referring to plural.

Now the verbs referring to that noun, (osluki, ittakhithi and kulee) as well as the pronoun referring to it, (ha, in butooniha) are all singular feminine form. Which, if you return to the rule, should be the case in the plural of a non-intelligent noun.

Now lets consider the other possibility, that an-Nahl refers to a singular male. In this case the verbs should be (osluk, ittakhith and kul) and the pronoun should be (hi, in butoonihi). As this is not the case, we can dismiss this possibility.

Final case is if you assume a not mentioned noun (an-Nahlah=feminine bee) in the text. Then the verbs would be (osluki, ittakhithi and kulee) and the pronoun would be (ha, in butooniha), as is found in the text. However this would create the problem of 3+ bellies per feminine bee. Also, while having non-mentioned nouns in the text is possible, and used, it is not the best syntax.

if you read almost all translations bee in translated as bee. and buuniha is translated as their bellies.

anyway which ever way bee is translated, whether it is bees or bee, How does it affect that the work is carried out by the female bee, the command is clearly given to a female. example if we say can you boys please eat, or can you please eat, the command or verb is still the same.


"Their bellies" simply means the collective effort to produce the honey. there is not just a single honey bee, there are many an they collectively produce the diverse colours of honey.We know why it is translated as their bellies, not becuase of the verbs, but because it is a irrational noun. you can see this rule more clearly on this site http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm.

I think what you dont understand that a verb and a noun is different.

verbs are commands or actions, "eat", "follow", "build" are all commands. and they are in femanine and its clear with the previous contexes provided.
are you saying the verbs affects whether the bee is plural or not? you are not making any sense.

[Faye]

I think what you dont understand that a verb and a noun is different.

verbs are commands or actions, "eat", "follow", "build" are all commands. and they are in femanine and its clear with the previous contexes provided.
are you saying the verbs affects whether the bee is plural or not? you are not making any sense.

Each verb form or conjugation in Arabic has an attached pronoun referring to the doer of the verb, which causes the change in forms. A typical verb in Arabic is translated as 'He did' (Fa2ala), or 'She did' (fa3alat), and so on. The pronoun within the verb changes to denote who the doer is.

In case of 'osluk-ee', 'kul-ee' and 'ittakhith-ee', the ee at the end is the pronoun, referring to the person being ordered and is singular feminine in form. Feminine singular pronouns are used for plural non-intelligent nouns, in this case, bees. From Madina Arabic site:

We can compare this to the plural of Irrational Nouns. We can see below that despite the nouns being plural, the pronouns that relate to these nouns are singular feminine - this does not change the plural word itself, only how the plural is treated and includes adjectives - i.e. an adjective following an irrational noun will be feminine singular

[Faye]

So is it female bees or not?

NOT!

Also nahli, on the start of the verse is that masculine or femanine?

It is singular masculine in form. It can refer to genderless plural as well.

[kay106]

Each verb form or conjugation in Arabic has an attached pronoun referring to the doer of the verb, which causes the change in forms. A typical verb in Arabic is translated as 'He did' (Fa2ala), or 'She did' (fa3alat), and so on. The pronoun within the verb changes to denote who the doer is.

In case of 'osluk-ee', 'kul-ee' and 'ittakhith-ee', the ee at the end is the pronoun, referring to the person being ordered and is singular feminine in form. Feminine singular pronouns are used for plural non-intelligent nouns, in this case, bees. From Madina Arabic site:

How comes almost in all translations bees are translated as singluar then, also when look at plural non intelligent nouns, say for example hiya, this will mean theirs, this is seen in the example on:

http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm

but in the case of oslukee, it still means eat not eats. faslukee it still means follow, attakhize means build, i still dont understand how this could used to make the word nahl into plural. i thought the world nahl, at the bigging was plural already. and how can ee, or ya be a pronoun, when it has no meaning to it? it is clear to me that yaa is used to convert a verb/command into femanine, but i cant understand how it could be a pronoun? because it does not mean he or she, it is just a letter yaa?

[Faye]

How comes almost in all translations bees are translated as singluar

An-Nahl is Ism ul-Jins, singular in form, plural in meaning. The closest approximation to that in English is as seen in this sentence:
"Man is a talking animal." The word 'man' is singular in form and can be used as singular in meaning as in this sentence :"A man walked into the room", but in the first sentence refers to the species as a whole, and not any individual member of it.
The translators, used the word Bee, (capitalized, if I remember right) to try to give the meaning of the species, as seen in the sentence, "Man is a talking animal."

then, also when look at plural non intelligent nouns, say for example hiya, this will mean theirs, this is seen in the example on:

http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm

Hiya (she, they) is a pronoun, not a noun. In Arabic, it is called a 'Zameer'. It is not a noun itself, but stands in place of another known noun to give its meaning.

but in the case of oslukee, it still means eat not eats. faslukee it still means follow, attakhize means build, i still dont understand how this could used to make the word nahl into plural. i thought the world nahl, at the bigging was plural already. and how can ee, or ya be a pronoun, when it has no meaning to it? it is clear to me that yaa is used to convert a verb/command into femanine, but i cant understand how it could be a pronoun? because it does not mean he or she, it is just a letter yaa?

In Engish, an order given does not indicate who you are ordering to do it. The order is: build, or eat. It doesn't say: Eat, you (male), or build, you (group), or stand, you (two females). In Arabic, the order is always accompanied by a pronoun referring to the person being ordered.

[kay106]

An-Nahl is Ism ul-Jins, singular in form, plural in meaning. The closest approximation to that in English is as seen in this sentence:
"Man is a talking animal." The word 'man' is singular in form and can be used as singular in meaning as in this sentence :"A man walked into the room", but in the first sentence refers to the species as a whole, and not any individual member of it.
The translators, used the word Bee, (capitalized, if I remember right) to try to give the meaning of the species, as seen in the sentence, "Man is a talking animal."


Hiya (she, they) is a pronoun, not a noun. In Arabic, it is called a 'Zameer'. It is not a noun itself, but stands in place of another known noun to give its meaning.



In Engish, an order given does not indicate who you are ordering to do it. The order is: build, or eat. It doesn't say: Eat, you (male), or build, you (group), or stand, you (two females). In Arabic, the order is always accompanied by a pronoun referring to the person being ordered.

So the al-nahl is plural already, and and the ee is not used to turn it into plural? instead it is there just because an irrational noun precedes it?

also how do i know that the ee or yaa is a pronoun, how can you proove it? do u have a source? yaa (ee) is a arabic letter and it does not mean him or her, instead it converts a command into femanine, meaning that the command is given to a femanine, i still dont understand? please post some reliable site, from medina or else, so i can read up on it.

[Faye]

So the al-nahl is plural already, and and the ee is not used to turn it into plural? instead it is there just because an irrational noun precedes it?

also how do i know that the ee or yaa is a pronoun, how can you proove it? do u have a source? yaa (ee) is a arabic letter and it does not mean him or her, instead it converts a command into femanine, meaning that the command is given to a femanine, i still dont understand? please post some reliable site, from medina or else, so i can read up on it.

Yes, the an-Nahl is plural already. The ee is an indication of its pluralhood, but it does not change it into a plural.

I really haven't seen many Arabic grammer sites on the web, and the medina site you posted doesn't cover verbs. Maybe if you provide the sites, I can find the rule on them?

[kay106]

Yes, the an-Nahl is plural already. The ee is an indication of its pluralhood, but it does not change it into a plural.

I really haven't seen many Arabic grammer sites on the web, and the medina site you posted doesn't cover verbs. Maybe if you provide the sites, I can find the rule on them?

U know what sis, you could be right, I am sorry for all the trouble, please forgive me for all the aggression. Please forgive me agnostic sister/brother too.

But there are still a LOT of questions, I still believe it refers to femanine bees, firstly when changed to plural, for example hazihe, as seen in medina university, it is changed to plural, doesnt that mean its plural femanine?

http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_002.htm

because we know that kitabuhun, is plural femanine?

Also how do we tell a group of females to eat, follow, build, etc? to tell a group of females to eat, is it still kulee?

[Faye]

U know what sis, you could be right, I am sorry for all the trouble, please forgive me for all the aggression. Please forgive me agnostic sister/brother too.

When I said forgiven, I mean forgiven. No more apologizing necessary.

But there are still a LOT of questions, I still believe it refers to femanine bees, firstly when changed to plural, for example hazihe, as seen in medina university, it is changed to plural, doesnt that mean its plural femanine?

An irrational noun is usually one which has no specific gender of its own (with the exception of animals), its gender is assigned to it according to the formation of the word. In effect, they are the 'it' words in English, and the gender is there for conjugation purposes only.

An example is book. It has no gender, and you could not give it a gender. Even if everytime you refer to the book, whether you say 'he', or 'she', that changes nothing concerning the book. It's gender still remains neutral (it).

Pluralizing it does not make a difference. What is apparent is that you are referring to a set of books, which are genderless of themselves. Your referring to them as 'she', does not indicate a change in gender, as none is possible.

Animals, according to Arabs are genderless, with the exception of those particular animals they prized (horses and camels). For those they have different name referring to female camel, male camel, male old camel, female old three legged non-milk giving camel (:Donly joking, but you get the point, right?), and so on.

So they would consider a bee, a genderless 'it', and its plural also genderless 'it', as far as meaning is concerned.

because we know that kitabuhun, is plural femanine?

Are you referring to kitaabun (one book), or kitaabo-hunna (the group of females' book)?

Also how do we tell a group of females to eat, follow, build, etc? to tell a group of females to eat, is it still kulee?

If you are ordering a group of human (rational) females about, you would say, kulna, ittakhathna, oslukna. Examples of this occur in the Quran,

Ayat 32, Surah Ahzaab - Qulna
Ayat 33, Suraj Ahzaab - Qarna, Aqimna, Aatayna, ATi2na.

If you are ordering a group of irrational objects about, like a group of dogs, then you would use singular feminine, like kulee. If you wished to specify that it was a group of dogs, and not one female dog, you would use the vocative particle and say: Ya Jama3at ul-Kilaab, kuli (oh, group of dogs, eat), or simply: ya kilaab, kuli (oh, dogs, eat) before the order. (Vocative particle in madinah arabic, following link)

http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm

If you further wish to specify that the addressed dogs are feminine, you would add: Ya Jama3at ul-Kilaab il-2ontha, kulee (oh, group of female dogs, kulee).

But most people would not go that much trouble for a dog.:D

[kay106]

Batn (belly)
batni (my belly)
batnoho (his belly)
batanak (your belly)
batnaha(her belly)
bootoniunna( plural feminine) to thinking females
(bootoniha( plural feminine) to nonthinking (it)
bootonihim ( masculine but to me can be used for both male and females) like in the verse of ants idkholuo rather than idkhouli

It has been a while since I did grammar so you are free to take all this with a grain of salt..

peace

I think we can all agree on that, bootoniha is plural femanine. Agree?

[Faye]

I think we can all agree on that, bootoniha is plural femanine. Agree?

An irrational noun is usually one which has no specific gender of its own (with the exception of animals), its gender is assigned to it according to the formation of the word. In effect, they are the 'it' words in English, and the gender is there for conjugation purposes only.

An example is book. It has no gender, and you could not give it a gender. Even if everytime you refer to the book, whether you say 'he', or 'she', that changes nothing concerning the book. It's gender still remains neutral (it).

Pluralizing it does not make a difference. What is apparent is that you are referring to a set of books, which are genderless of themselves. Your referring to them as 'she', does not indicate a change in gender, as none is possible.

Animals, according to Arabs are genderless, with the exception of those particular animals they prized (horses and camels). For those they have different name referring to female camel, male camel, male old camel, female old three legged non-milk giving camel (:Donly joking, but you get the point, right?), and so on.

So is true about bellies. While the bellies may belong to a male/female, single or group, the bellies do not intrinsically change gender.

As to their ownership, it is indicated by the pronoun, ha at the end of butooni-ha. As in the medinah site:
http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm

While they have not specified ha occurring for irrational nouns in this place, they have in the chapter on irrational nouns.
http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_002.htm

So, for all these reasons, I do not agree that butooniha is plural feminine. Butoon is a plural irrational noun, and is conjugated as singular feminine. ha is a singular feminine pronoun, for a plural irrational noun.

Are you referring to kitaabun (one book), or kitaabo-hunna (the group of females' book)?

You didn't reply to this.

[kay106]

So is true about bellies. While the bellies may belong to a male/female, single or group, the bellies do not intrinsically change gender.

As to their ownership, it is indicated by the pronoun, ha at the end of butooni-ha. As in the medinah site:
http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm

While they have not specified ha occurring for irrational nouns in this place, they have in the chapter on irrational nouns.
http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_002.htm

So, for all these reasons, I do not agree that butooniha is plural feminine. Butoon is a plural irrational noun, and is conjugated as singular feminine. ha is a singular feminine pronoun, for a plural irrational noun.



You didn't reply to this.

In ma'riful Qura, page 371 for verse 16:66, and other translations, http://en.quran.nu/, butunihi (their bellies) is translated as plural, and this is masculine.

so in the case of butuniha, are you sure it is translated as plural becuase it is an irrational noun or because the word nahl is plural?

According to ma'ariful Quran, page 375, hone bee is distict entity among human life particularly in terms of intelligence and management. So are you sure this is one of those nouns treated as non-intelligent?

kitaabo-hunna i was refering to.

[Faye]

In ma'riful Qura, page 371 for verse 16:66, and other translations, http://en.quran.nu/, butunihi (their bellies) is translated as plural, and this is masculine.

so in the case of butuniha, are you sure it is translated as plural becuase it is an irrational noun or because the word nahl is plural?

According to ma'ariful Quran, page 375, hone bee is distict entity among human life particularly in terms of intelligence and management. So are you sure this is one of those nouns treated as non-intelligent?

kitaabo-hunna i was refering to.

The pronoun in: (butunihi: their bellies) reverts back to: (al-an3am: cattle). Since the word al-an3am is plural in the feminine gender, it required that the word used for it should have been: (butuni-ha), as it appears in Siirah Al-Mu'minin: (We provide you, out of what there is in their bellies - 23:21).
Al-Qurtubi explains this by saying that consideration has been made of the meaning of the plural in Surah Al-Mu'miniin where the pronoun
has been used in the feminine gender. And, in Surah Al-Nahl, the pronoun has been used in the masculine gender in consideration of the plural word as such. Examples of this usage abound in Arabic where a singular pronoun is made to revert to a plural word.

The explanation of why it is so is given right after it. In butooni-ha, while the word ha refers to an apparently singular male word, the singular feminine pronoun is used because its meaning is plural. In botooni-hi, the word hi refers to an apparently singular male word to, and in this case, the singular male pronoun hi is used according to appearances and not meaning. And, as both occur in the Quran, both are correct, though one is used more often than the other.

It should be clear that attaching a plural pronoun to the end of a noun does not make the noun plural.


I'm going to be mostly offline for the next couple of weeks as I have exams and may take a while to reply. Maybe you could continue this discussion with somebody at medinah arabic forum?

[kay106]

When I said forgiven, I mean forgiven. No more apologizing necessary.



An irrational noun is usually one which has no specific gender of its own (with the exception of animals), its gender is assigned to it according to the formation of the word. In effect, they are the 'it' words in English, and the gender is there for conjugation purposes only.

An example is book. It has no gender, and you could not give it a gender. Even if everytime you refer to the book, whether you say 'he', or 'she', that changes nothing concerning the book. It's gender still remains neutral (it).

Pluralizing it does not make a difference. What is apparent is that you are referring to a set of books, which are genderless of themselves. Your referring to them as 'she', does not indicate a change in gender, as none is possible.

Animals, according to Arabs are genderless, with the exception of those particular animals they prized (horses and camels). For those they have different name referring to female camel, male camel, male old camel, female old three legged non-milk giving camel (:Donly joking, but you get the point, right?), and so on.

So they would consider a bee, a genderless 'it', and its plural also genderless 'it', as far as meaning is concerned.



Are you referring to kitaabun (one book), or kitaabo-hunna (the group of females' book)?



If you are ordering a group of human (rational) females about, you would say, kulna, ittakhathna, oslukna. Examples of this occur in the Quran,

Ayat 32, Surah Ahzaab - Qulna
Ayat 33, Suraj Ahzaab - Qarna, Aqimna, Aatayna, ATi2na.

If you are ordering a group of irrational objects about, like a group of dogs, then you would use singular feminine, like kulee. If you wished to specify that it was a group of dogs, and not one female dog, you would use the vocative particle and say: Ya Jama3at ul-Kilaab, kuli (oh, group of dogs, eat), or simply: ya kilaab, kuli (oh, dogs, eat) before the order. (Vocative particle in madinah arabic, following link)

http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_...ection_001.htm

If you further wish to specify that the addressed dogs are feminine, you would add: Ya Jama3at ul-Kilaab il-2ontha, kulee (oh, group of female dogs, kulee).

But most people would not go that much trouble for a dog.:D

from what your are saying that kulee, faslukee, could be used to indicate that the noun is plural where the noun (bees) is plural already, or it could be a command to a female,

i dont think it is a coincidence that the femanine gender is used 4 times!

Like you have mentioned your self, butuniha is plural femanine, no one can argue over that, kulee, faslukee, attakhizee, is a command give to the female bees, this is clear upon observation.

[Faye]

from what your are saying that kulee, faslukee, could be used to indicate that the noun is plural where the noun (bees) is plural already, or it could be a command to a female,

Do you agree that it could be a command to a non-intelligent group of bees?

i dont think it is a coincidence that the femanine gender is used 4 times!

If it is used once in one place, it has to be used all the time that way in that place. If fifty verbs came after that, they would all have to be conjugated the same way. The number of occurrances does not make a difference.

Like you have mentioned your self, butuniha is plural femanine, no one can argue over that, kulee, faslukee, attakhizee, is a command give to the female bees, this is clear upon observation.

I don't recall mentioning that butuniha is plural feminine. I have said it is plural, conjugated as feminine. Quote me correctly next time.

What do you been by clear upon observation? It is clear upon observation to me that it is a command given to plural genderless bees. Since there is no way we can change each others observation, I suggest we drop this particular point in the arguement.

[kay106]

Do you agree that it could be a command to a non-intelligent group of bees?


If it is used once in one place, it has to be used all the time that way in that place. If fifty verbs came after that, they would all have to be conjugated the same way. The number of occurrances does not make a difference.



I don't recall mentioning that butuniha is plural feminine. I have said it is plural, conjugated as feminine. Quote me correctly next time.

What do you been by clear upon observation? It is clear upon observation to me that it is a command given to plural genderless bees. Since there is no way we can change each others observation, I suggest we drop this particular point in the arguement.

thanks for all you help, may Allah reward you. I am really sorry for all the trouble.

My point was that instead of femanine verbs, other verbs could also be used, as seen as in the case of Surah Naml, but this time everything is just perfect. Also I am pretty sure that buttunihun is plural femanine for thinking objects, and butuniha is plural femanine for non thinking. Again correct gender is congugated in the arabic, the point i made about the observation is that we observe the bees, the worker bees we have come to know thats its female, by actually studying the bee, this verse is just perfect! ALAhamdullilah.

[kay106]

I have jut verified with a few other people, certainly Butuniha, is plural feminine!

[Whatsthepoint]

I have jut verified with a few other people, certainly Butuniha, is plural feminine!

In what way is it plural feminine?:)
Grammatically speaking, plural feminine bellies say nothing about the gender of the bees.
If you meant its feminine in a way it belongs to a female, that's a totally different thing, already explained in this thread.

My conclusion is that the verse does not specify the bees are feminine.

[جوري]

it is feminine plural, just like addressing the naml (ants) was masculine plural.. will this topic ever end? why not just agree to disagree.. people can certainly have different opinions without killing each other over it for days?!!

[Faye]

I have jut verified with a few other people, certainly Butuniha, is plural feminine!

Just the fact that other people agree with you doesn't make it true.

[Faye]

But if you are referring to this debate on the madinaharabic forum, the guy is agreeing with my position, not yours.
http://www.madinaharabic.com/forum/s...=8643#post8643
I'm enjoying this, but if you like, we could agree to disagree, like Skye suggested.

[kay106]

But if you are referring to this debate on the madinaharabic forum, the guy is agreeing with my position, not yours.
http://www.madinaharabic.com/forum/s...=8643#post8643
I'm enjoying this, but if you like, we could agree to disagree, like Skye suggested.

The person said

"yes butuniha is used because the word Nahl itself is plural and feminine.

put it simply:
butunihum = their (masculine) bellies
butunihunna = their (feminine) bellies

butunihee = his (sing. masculine) or its (sing. masculine) bellies
butuniha = her (sing. feminine) or its (sing. feminine) or their (plural feminine) bellies"

So no he is not agreeing to your position. He said Nahl itself is plural and feminie, butuniha is femine plural!

[Faye]

The person said

"yes butuniha is used because the word Nahl itself is plural and feminine.

put it simply:
butunihum = their (masculine) bellies
butunihunna = their (feminine) bellies

butunihee = his (sing. masculine) or its (sing. masculine) bellies
butuniha = her (sing. feminine) or its (sing. feminine) or their (plural feminine) bellies"

So no he is not agreeing to your position. He said Nahl itself is plural and feminie, butuniha is femine plural!

The genders after their, his and it are referring to the pronouns, not the bellies!
And by plural and feminine, He means plural in itself, and feminine in conjugatiuon

[kay106]

The genders after their, his and it are referring to the pronouns, not the bellies!
And by plural and feminine, He means plural in itself, and feminine in conjugatiuon

Remember what you quoted from Mariful Quran:

"Since the word al-an3am is plural in the feminine gender, it required that the word used for it should have been: (butuni-ha), as it appears in Siirah Al-Mu'minin: (We provide you, out of what there is in their bellies - 23:21)."

Therefore Al-Nahl is femanine because butuniha is used!

[freshwayz]

The person said

"yes butuniha is used because the word Nahl itself is plural and feminine.

put it simply:
butunihum = their (masculine) bellies
butunihunna = their (feminine) bellies

butunihee = his (sing. masculine) or its (sing. masculine) bellies
butuniha = her (sing. feminine) or its (sing. feminine) or their (plural feminine) bellies"

So no he is not agreeing to your position. He said Nahl itself is plural and feminie, butuniha is femine plural!

The two in red have a small grammatical error, by small I mean its written with english alphabet using a vowel which does not sound similar to the arabic.
butunihim
butunihinna

[Faye]

Remember what you quoted from Mariful Quran:

"Since the word al-an3am is plural in the feminine gender, it required that the word used for it should have been: (butuni-ha), as it appears in Siirah Al-Mu'minin: (We provide you, out of what there is in their bellies - 23:21)."

Therefore Al-Nahl is femanine because butuniha is used!

"Plural in the femine gender" means plural in meaning, feminine in conjugation. And the debate in maarif is about the suffix posesive pronoun's (ha), not butuni (bellies).

[kay106]

"Plural in the femine gender" means plural in meaning, feminine in conjugation. And the debate in maarif is about the suffix posesive pronoun's (ha), not butuni (bellies).

You can see in medina university book 1 lesson 13, the plural of Ha (her) is Hunna (their),

To say "And they are my sister" you would say "Ya 'Hunna' Akhya tee"!
To say in arabic refering to a group females "'They' are my class mates and this is their house", is 'Hunna' rzamelatenn yaa hazaa baihunna!

Plural of Hu (His) is Hum (their), example in arabic, abu 'hum' ta khirun sha hib, means "'Their' father is a famous merchant"

as you can see Their in the context of the bees is clealy femanine, refering to the femanine bees, who eat from the fruits as well as those that build the houses! AlahamDullilah! Also read the beginning of the thread, 7 down, another miracle!

Also ma'riful Quran cleary says that butuniha is used with femanine! You have quoted this your self:

"Since the word al-an3am is plural in the feminine gender, it required that the word used for it should have been: (butuni-ha), as it appears in Siirah Al-Mu'minin: (We provide you, out of what there is in their bellies - 23:21)."

I think this should end the debate! Bees are femanine! Alahamdullilah!

[freshwayz]

Do not follow "madina arabic" course books blindly either, I've had a good look at them. I have my own copy at home in which I made note of hundreds of mistakes in their books.

[Miracle]

Conclusion?

[freshwayz]

العربية بين يديك and Madina books are no good when it comes to Quranic Arabic, as they are full of mistakes. I would suggest you speak to a Qualified Arabic teacher (University lecturer ideally) to get advice on a suitable book for you to learn Arabic.

[doorster]

العربية بين يديك and Madina books are no good when it comes to Quranic Arabic, as they are full of mistakes. I would suggest you speak to a Qualified Arabic teacher (University lecturer ideally) to get advice on a suitable book for you to learn Arabic.

I do not think that anymore because now I believe that it is a deliberate attempt to change the meanings to bring the Quraan in line with various tafaasir and ahaadis books.

Since there are far too many people who know the words of Quraan by heart, making it impossible to change it according to their needs they have slowly but sureley been changing its meanings. and they will continue doing so until it stops being what it was 1400 hundred years ago.

[freshwayz]

I do not believe that anymore because I think that it is a deliberate attempt to change the meanings to bring the Quraan in line with various tafaasir and ahaadis books.

Since there are far too many people who know the words of Quraan by heart, making it impossible to change it according to their needs they have slowly but sureley been changing its meanings. and they will continue doing so until it stops being what it was 1400 hundred years ago.

That is probably why they have filled them with so many mistakes. We tend to stick to the older grammar books when teaching the arabic language for the simple reason that the new ones are full of mistakes, whether the mistakes are deliberate or not is another matter.

[جوري]

The way you can look at this sans the grammar is that it is correct on multiple levels
1-grammatically
2-biologically and physiologically
3-it doesn't matter how you divide it, grammar alone or function alone, for the first part singular last part plural will still cover the two stomachs that each individual bee has..
contrast it with the Naml story and how they are addressed...

can an illiterate prophet or even literate prophet address each verse with that much integrity and have it flow on all levels, syle, context, meaning, rhyme, all while carrying other affairs like the political/economic/social state of an ummah...

it is exactly as Dr Gary Miller said, you simply have to put the Quran to scrutiny on multiple levels, and on multiple levels it will not simply exonerate itself, but also prove itself extraordinary!

The Quran in and of itself serves as one of the best books to teach proper Arabic grammar ...

btw is Sr. Faye still with us?

:w: