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north_malaysian
07-04-2008, 03:03 AM
Now, Sikhs want to be part of suit over the word Allah

KUALA LUMPUR: The Sikh community in Malaysia has become the latest party seeking to intervene in the suit by the Catholic Church over the use of the word "Allah".

The Malaysian Gurdwaras Council filed an application to intervene in the suit through the firm Jagjit Singh & Co on Tuesday.

In a supporting affidavit, its president Jagir Singh said the word "Allah" in reference to God was an integral part of the original version of the Sikh holy book, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

As such, he said, no followers of the Sikh religion would tolerate any obstruction on the use of the original terms taken from their holy book.

Jagir Singh said the council, the umbrella body of some 130 gurdwaras nationwide representing more than 100,000 of the Sikh religion, had an interest in the declaration sought by the applicant of the suit.

In the suit, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kuala Lumpur Datuk Murphy Pakiam is seeking to declare that the Catholic weekly "Herald" is entitled to use the word "Allah".

He is also seeking to declare that its usage was not exclusive to Islam.

Rev Murphy, 70, had named the then Internal Security Minister (now Home Minister after the ministry was merged with the Home Affairs Ministry) and the Government as respondents in the application filed on March 19.

The archbishop is named as an applicant in the action in his capacity as publisher of the Herald.

Other parties which have applied to intervene in the suit are the Penang Islamic Religious Council, Terengganu Islamic Religious and Malay Custom Council, Federal Territories Islamic Religious Council and Perak Islamic Religious and Malay Custom Council.

Source: The Star, 04.07.2008, page N34
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 03:09 AM
WHAT???????????

ok ummm... no offence to the sikh bros and sisters But Allah (swt) is Allah!!!
The Lord of the heavens and the earth.
if you do not believe in Him, His angels, messengers, books, in al qadar, the last day and paradise and hell!

then errr... i dont understand why they would want to use His name!
Gosh what is going on in this world???
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Kas1m
07-04-2008, 07:32 AM
The master of the Sikhs, its a myth, that he was a muslim, if not then he was really close to muslims. He kept telling in signs that the Quran is the truth
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------
07-04-2008, 01:21 PM
:salamext:

Allaah is the one and only God. If people want to use Allaah to refer to God then that is cool. No one can claim their right on the "name" however, apart from Islaam, because Islaam is the true religion, and the only religion accepted by Allaah.

------------

The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His will)... [Qur'aan, 3:19]

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him...[Qur'aan, 3:85]
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Amadeus85
07-04-2008, 01:25 PM
i dont know how it is with sikhs but christians calls the Creator, (YAHVE in Bible) in national lanuage of their country.Thats why there is God,Gott,Bóg,Deus,and also Allah for arabic christians.If God is Allah in malay language so thats why they wanted to use it, they are not Americans so they cant call Him God.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 04:24 PM
Ok so if sikhs beleive that their guru was a muslim or close to islam then why dont they follow islam?

it has been revealed to us that Allah's previous scriptures were the torah and injeel, you dont see muslims following them. no where in the Qur'an was the guru granth sahib mentioned nor any gurus named doesnt that make the sikhs think!!!

and i dont understand why arab christians use Allah!!!
isnt the word in arabic for God ilah? and gods ilahs?
Allah is the unique name for Allah swt and none who believe in Him should be able to use it to refer to other beings than ONLY Him!

(sorry about the exclamation marks lol)

but i just totally disagree wth that...
when i hear stuff like this it just makes me think man when are people going to wake up and use common sense... i say its signs of the qiyamah the whole world has lost the plot!

next you will be getting Hindus asking for permission to name Ganesh Allah (Astaghfirullah)

NO offence to any brothers and sisters frm other religions whatsoever, i respect all believes but i just dont agree with what they are tryingto do thats all.

ma salama.
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glo
07-04-2008, 04:46 PM
Allah
Allah (, ) is the standard Arabic word for "God". The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God. Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God". The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'. In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.
Source: http://www.babylon.com/definition/Allah/

If 'Allah' is the standard Arabic term for 'God', then surely all Arabic speaking people would refer to God by that name ... regardless of how God is seen in their religion ...
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
WHAT???????????

ok ummm... no offence to the sikh bros and sisters But Allah (swt) is Allah!!!
The Lord of the heavens and the earth.
if you do not believe in Him, His angels, messengers, books, in al qadar, the last day and paradise and hell!

then errr... i dont understand why they would want to use His name!
Gosh what is going on in this world???
Erm, we don't need to believe in anything but Allah. We respect other religions, but we don't follow them!

Get educated before you make silly posts. Allah belongs to EVERYBODY. Only fools quarrell over who he's for and who he's not for!
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Kasim
The master of the Sikhs, its a myth, that he was a muslim, if not then he was really close to muslims. He kept telling in signs that the Quran is the truth
He wasn't a muslim you're right. Although he's given the title of Hazrut Nanak, he went to mecca and had many discourses with muslim saints. Especially in Baghdad. He was a Sikh he says so in his Gurbani (Verses)
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
Ok so if sikhs beleive that their guru was a muslim or close to islam then why dont they follow islam?

it has been revealed to us that Allah's previous scriptures were the torah and injeel, you dont see muslims following them. no where in the Qur'an was the guru granth sahib mentioned nor any gurus named doesnt that make the sikhs think!!!

and i dont understand why arab christians use Allah!!!
isnt the word in arabic for God ilah? and gods ilahs?
Allah is the unique name for Allah swt and none who believe in Him should be able to use it to refer to other beings than ONLY Him!

(sorry about the exclamation marks lol)

but i just totally disagree wth that...
when i hear stuff like this it just makes me think man when are people going to wake up and use common sense... i say its signs of the qiyamah the whole world has lost the plot!

next you will be getting Hindus asking for permission to name Ganesh Allah (Astaghfirullah)

NO offence to any brothers and sisters frm other religions whatsoever, i respect all believes but i just dont agree with what they are tryingto do thats all.

ma salama.
Koi bole ram, koi khuda, koi sevakgosian, koi allahi. So many names of God, but he remins one. Please use your brain child. God is one you CAN'T patent his name!!!

Guru Nanak or any other Guru was not muslim or hindu he makes that clear in his verses NA MAIN HINDU NA MAIN MUSLAMAN!
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:21 PM
ok fair enough, but then again, the Qur'an was revealed in arabic hence why you have Allah "arabic word" for God referring to God.

torah and injeel were also previous scriptures of the Amlighty Lord. so the arabic christians would make sense to say God in arabic.

the word in Hindi for God is bagwan i dont know what the word for God in punjabi would be which is the language that many sikhs speak so why not stick to your own language and refer to the god that they believe in, in their own language?
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Erm, we don't need to believe in anything but Allah. We respect other religions, but we don't follow them!

Get educated before you make silly posts. Allah belongs to EVERYBODY. Only fools quarrell over who he's for and who he's not for!
dear brother im not quarreling about who Allah swt is for.
just like He is the one that created me He also created you, my argument was merely over the word not over Allah. that is a silly presumption i must say made by you.

In my prespective i dont think it is logical for sikhs who dont even believe in Allah swt to use the word which is arabic that has nothing to do with their language and refer it to their god.

i'm not gonna sit here and argue about the god that you believe in not being the true God. i dont believe in sikhism nor practise it just like you dont believe in islam nor practice it.

surah 109 al kafiroon

To you be your religion to me mine.

Peace brother.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
ok fair enough, but then again, the Qur'an was revealed in arabic hence why you have Allah "arabic word" for God referring to God.

torah and injeel were also previous scriptures of the Amlighty Lord. so the arabic christians would make sense to say God in arabic.

the word in Hindi for God is bagwan i dont know what the word for God in punjabi would be which is the language that many sikhs speak so why not stick to your own language and refer to the god that they believe in, in their own language?
It's the one. This mention of God in the scrptures shows what other religions do not reflect this. That there is only one God and not a God for Muslims and one for Christians and one for tha troll who lives under the bridge...

God in Panjabi is Waheguru - The verses are written by Muslims Saints. SO why would thet not use the term Allah?
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
dear brother im not quarreling about who Allah swt is for.
just like He is the one that created me He also created you, my argument was merely over the word not over Allah. that is a silly presumption i must say made by you.

In my prespective i dont think it is logical for sikhs who dont even believe in Allah swt to use the word which is arabic that has nothing to do with their language and refer it to their god.

i'm not gonna sit here and argue about the god that you believe in not being the true God. i dont believe in sikhism nor practise it just like you dont believe in islam nor practice it.

surah 109 al kafiroon

To you be your religion to me mine.

Peace brother.
You are not reading my posts sister. THERE IS ONE GOD. Not my God and your God. Sikhs beleive in Allah, we just do not accept the ways of Islam, as they are not the true way for us. Hence us respecting it, but not going on a crusade over it.

''Jis Nu Toon Jaania So Jan Jania' - Whom he gives his knowledge to, shall fathom''
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S1aveofA11ah
07-04-2008, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Erm, we don't need to believe in anything but Allah. We respect other religions, but we don't follow them!

Get educated before you make silly posts. Allah belongs to EVERYBODY. Only fools quarrell over who he's for and who he's not for!

I'm not sure what you mean by Allah belongs to EVERYBODY. I think you may be using the word 'belongs' in a confusing fashion. Allah is not OWNED by anybody. If you mean (which is what I think you do) he is the God of everybody i.e. the sole creator of all mankind and that no human has an exclusive right over Allah then I understand your point. Sorry, its proberly just the wording.

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.

However, Islamically this belief in his existence ALONE does not make one a Muslim as one must believe that He (Allah) is the ONLY one to be worshipped and the crux of that is to worship Allah AS HE PRESCRIBED. After all we humans who are prone to errors could not devise error-free ways to worship God properly. Worship would become nonsensical over time.

So the worship God has prescribed for mankind MUST be adhered to strictly and hence the fundamental belief in the Qur'an, The Last Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) etc. Without these beliefs and followings one is not a Muslim.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Koi bole ram, koi khuda, koi sevakgosian, koi allahi. So many names of God, but he remins one. Please use your brain child. God is one you CAN'T patent his name!!!

Guru Nanak or any other Guru was not muslim or hindu he makes that clear in his verses NA MAIN HINDU NA MAIN MUSLAMAN!
dear brother, i suggest you READ the whole thread i was not the one saying guru nanak was muslim as far as im concerned guru nanak was sikh hence why he brought about sikhism, common logic i must say.

i'm sorry as regards ram i do not agree with you there you cannot associate the Almighty Lord who is unseen to a man made idol named ram, khuda is the persian word for God is urdu the same. you do not get english christians refering to jesus as khuda. i dont even know what sevakgosian means so im not gonna refer to that i tried googling it but nothing came up.
yet again Allah means God in arabic so makes sense for arabic speakers to refer to their God be it muslims or christian arabs.

we believe God is one, christians dont, hindus dont you might, but for someone to have such believes and call upon God by saying hai ram errr doesnt that contradict their whole believe?
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
It's the one. This mention of God in the scrptures shows what other religions do not reflect this. That there is only one God and not a God for Muslims and one for Christians and one for tha troll who lives under the bridge...

God in Panjabi is Waheguru - The verses are written by Muslims Saints. SO why would thet not use the term Allah?
so let me get this right!
you guys believe that the verses of guru granth sahib were written by muslim saints???
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
I'm not sure what you mean by Allah belongs to EVERYBODY. I think you may be using the word 'belongs' in a confusing fashion. Allah is not OWNED by anybody. If you mean (which is what I think you do) he is the God of everybody i.e. the sole creator of all mankind and that no human has an exclusive right over Allah then I understand your point. Sorry, its proberly just the wording.

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.

However, Islamically this belief in his existence ALONE does not make one a Muslim as one must believe that He (Allah) is the ONLY one to be worshipped and the crux of that is to worship Allah AS HE PRESCRIBED. After all we humans who are prone to errors could not devise error-free ways to worship God properly. Worship would become nonsensical over time.

So the worship God has prescribed for mankind MUST be adhered to strictly and hence the fundamental belief in the Qur'an, The Last Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) etc. Without these beliefs and followings one is not a Muslim.
Yes, my wording wasn't the best selected. Just had to answer as many post ASAP or I would have hyperventilated (sp):D

Sikhs are not Muslims, we have never claimed to be (it's muslims who say we are etc) Hindus say we are hindus (again were are not)

What the purpose of Sikhi was, that as it's the last relgion to have been introduced to the world. The Gurus were ordered by Allah to reveal the name of God once more. As those that have come previously, have either distorted the message or have swayed off the path. Allah is one, and we do not follow Mohammed but he is respcted just like all the other Prophets of ohter faiths.

The Shri Guru Granth Sahib is the divin word for us which has been written by the Sikh Prophets and no other. (Unlike the Bible Quran Vedas etc) This to us seals that message. God sends down the Prophets and then ASKS them to write the message THEMSELVES. Left to any tom dick or harry, well it's prone to distortion you'll find!
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
so let me get this right!
you guys believe that the verses of guru granth sahib were written by muslim saints???
We don't just believe we KNOW!

Shri Sian Shekih Farid Ji & more- Google it, you'll learn something!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:45 PM
Ram is not the one who was betrothed to Sita. Ram, in hinduism is the name for God. Hindusim has faltered into idloatry, we do not associate God with idols.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:46 PM
[QUOTE=S1aveofA11ah;969568]

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.

[QUOTE]

salam alaikum brother, i dont agree with you there, chirstians do not believe in the one true God, they believe in jesus, holy spirit and god, they believe in the trinity, and hindus they have a whole family of gods, man made idols that they praise glorify invoke and worship.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Ram is not the one who was betrothed to Sita. Ram, in hinduism is the name for God. Hindusim has faltered into idloatry, we do not associate God with idols.
i thought in hindu bagwan is the name for god.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
dear brother, i suggest you READ the whole thread i was not the one saying guru nanak was muslim as far as im concerned guru nanak was sikh hence why he brought about sikhism, common logic i must say.

i'm sorry as regards ram i do not agree with you there you cannot associate the Almighty Lord who is unseen to a man made idol named ram, khuda is the persian word for God is urdu the same. you do not get english christians refering to jesus as khuda. i dont even know what sevakgosian means so im not gonna refer to that i tried googling it but nothing came up.
yet again Allah means God in arabic so makes sense for arabic speakers to refer to their God be it muslims or christian arabs.

we believe God is one, christians dont, hindus dont you might, but for someone to have such believes and call upon God by saying hai ram errr doesnt that contradict their whole believe?
Gusain is the name for God of the Kateb (Semitic Books)

The rest wasn't directed at you. I mean in general Muslims say this on other sites. On this site too, but that was addressed. Seems like I'm going around in circles. all this has been said back in 2006 search for Sikhism thread.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
i thought in hindu bagwan is the name for god.
Brahma, Visnu, Ram, Prabu, see, so many names.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:51 PM
[QUOTE=Eeman;969574][QUOTE=S1aveofA11ah;969568]

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.


salam alaikum brother, i dont agree with you there, chirstians do not believe in the one true God, they believe in jesus, holy spirit and god, they believe in the trinity, and hindus they have a whole family of gods, man made idols that they praise glorify invoke and worship.
That's the uneducated ones. Real Hindus do now idol worship, they don't have 'Gods' with six arms and 5 heads etc. This is like the Greek Mythical gods. Zeus Thor etc. Just made for entertainment. Which is wrong.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
We don't just believe we KNOW!

Shri Sian Shekih Farid Ji & more- Google it, you'll learn something!
lol dear brother im sorry if i wanna even debate on that.

so the muslim saints wrote the verses in the guru granth sahib.
now if these saints are muslim i.e believers of islam....
then they must have been followers of the Qur'an to be muslim right and practicing muslims...

now why on earth would they write lies about their own God that they believe and their own religion to create another religion or create a holy book for people to deviate from the true path of Allah to another path...

and you said muslim saints... it takes a long time and a lot of dedication and striving hard for the sake of Allah swt to become a saint, and then why wold they do such a thing commit such a major sin to earn the WRATH of Allah swt and spend eternity in Hellfire?

that just doesnt make sense to me from a muslim perspective and on top a muslim saint!
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Brahma, Visnu, Ram, Prabu, see, so many names.
But these are names given to statues to diffrentiate them.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
lol dear brother im sorry if i wanna even debate on that.

so the muslim saints wrote the verses in the guru granth sahib.
now if these saints are muslim i.e believers of islam....
then they must have been followers of the Qur'an to be muslim right and practicing muslims...

now why on earth would they write lies about their own God that they believe and their own religion to create another religion or create a holy book for people to deviate from the true path of Allah to another path...

and you said muslim saints... it takes a long time and a lot of dedication and striving hard for the sake of Allah swt to become a saint, and then why wold they do such a thing commit such a major sin to earn the WRATH of Allah swt and spend eternity in Hellfire?

that just doesnt make sense to me from a muslim perspective and on top a muslim saint!
He didn't follow Islam the way you do. He was a saint because he prefomed Miracles. I'll address it a bit more later. Post questions you lot want to, and i'll answer them later on. Have to make tracks.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
But these are names given to statues to diffrentiate them.

Yes, it's the the 99 names of Allah by muslims. these are the VERSIONS of Gods many attributes anyway i'm here to talk about Sikhism not Hinduism! :)
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 05:59 PM
[QUOTE=AvarAllahNoor;969581][QUOTE=Eeman;969574]
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.



That's the uneducated ones. Real Hindus do now idol worship, they don't have 'Gods' with six arms and 5 heads etc. This is like the Greek Mythical gods. Zeus Thor etc. Just made for entertainment. Which is wrong.
i dont quite understand you there... you say thats the uneducated ones and go to say that real hindus now do idol worship and they dont have gods with six arms and 5 heads.

where is the holy place for hindus to go to? the mandir their temple, whats in these mandirs that they pray to statues who do they invoke? the man made statues, some have six arms and some are blue but in human form, some are elephants and some are cows. so ummm that is idol worshipping and not believing in the One unseen God.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
He didn't follow Islam the way you do. He was a saint because he prefomed Miracles. I'll address it a bit more later. Post questions you lot want to, and i'll answer them later on. Have to make tracks.
so ok got you.
basically he wasnt a muslim saint then and many people perform miracles and from islamic perspective these people are able to perform miracles cos they are in contact with the jinns.
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Eeman
07-04-2008, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Yes, it's the the 99 names of Allah by muslims. these are the VERSIONS of Gods many attributes anyway i'm here to talk about Sikhism not Hinduism! :)
the 99 names of Allah is His attributes, through His 99 names that He has revealed to us He is telling us what the attributes of this ONE God that mankind should believe in are!
Rahman = gracious
raheem= merciful
wadud= loving
mani= preventer
awal=first
akhir= last etc

its not like we have 99 gods and you praise and worship each god for the specific reason e.g. when we commit a sin we dont go to raheem and invoke raheem to have mercy on us.

and what is the meaning of ram? or prabu or vishnu are these attributes of a One God or merely names?
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S1aveofA11ah
07-04-2008, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=Eeman;969574][QUOTE=S1aveofA11ah;969568]

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.


salam alaikum brother, i dont agree with you there, chirstians do not believe in the one true God, they believe in jesus, holy spirit and god, they believe in the trinity, and hindus they have a whole family of gods, man made idols that they praise glorify invoke and worship.

I think you are mistaken. Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God or the Son of God - I think the Mormon sect if I'm not wrong.

Also, I was watching a lecture by Dr. Zakir Naik who is, in my opinion, probably the best multi-lingual comparitive religion speaker alive today. I've even seen him quote a Jewish book in Hebrew to site proof from memory!!. Anyway, back to the point - he was explaining that the Hindus do believe in the One True God or Creator as its in some of their holy scriptures. However, they also believe in other Gods which are intermediaries to Allah.
Reply

Eeman
07-04-2008, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=S1aveofA11ah;969624][QUOTE=Eeman;969574]
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah

The Jews, Chrisitans and the Hindus all actually believe in the EXISTENCE of the one, exact and same God i.e. Allah - the one true God who has no partners, rivals etc.




I think you are mistaken. Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God or the Son of God - I think the Mormon sect if I'm not wrong.

Also, I was watching a lecture by Dr. Zakir Naik who is, in my opinion, probably the best multi-lingual comparitive religion speaker alive today. I've even seen him quote a Jewish book in Hebrew to site proof from memory!!. Anyway, back to the point - he was explaining that the Hindus do believe in the One True God or Creator as its in some of their holy scriptures. However, they also believe in other Gods which are intermediaries to Allah.
so all in all it your statement goes to answer your own question brother, they believe in one God but also believe in other gods which are intermediaries,
all in all the whole concept is flawed and a big form of shirk...
how can you believe that there is One God and then believe in other gods with godly qualities and use these gods to intervene for you.

on that basis in my life from my own learning i have had and still do have many hindu friends who i love and cherish, and these are people with these beliefs... yes they believe in God so as their belief goes but then this god, but then they go contradicting their own belief of that one god by believing in other gods... wooooooooooooosh! (way over my head) dunno how that works.

as in i'd understand when some muslims, and there are muslims out there who commit shirk by going to saints and invoking the saints thinking that they are using them as someone to intervene and put in a good word for them due to their piety to Allah swt and these people believe that by doing so Allah swt on the behalf of that saint will answer their prayers.
but these muslims dont go as far as describing that saint as a god or with godly features or abilities but hindus do with ram, prabu, vishnu , ganesh, shiva, kali mata etc.
Reply

S1aveofA11ah
07-04-2008, 08:00 PM
[QUOTE=Eeman;969649][QUOTE=S1aveofA11ah;969624]
Originally Posted by Eeman

so all in all it your statement goes to answer your own question brother, they believe in one God but also believe in other gods which are intermediaries,
all in all the whole concept is flawed and a big form of shirk...
how can you believe that there is One God and then believe in other gods with godly qualities and use these gods to intervene for you.

on that basis in my life from my own learning i have had and still do have many hindu friends who i love and cherish, and these are people with these beliefs... yes they believe in God so as their belief goes but then this god, but then they go contradicting their own belief of that one god by believing in other gods... wooooooooooooosh! (way over my head) dunno how that works.

as in i'd understand when some muslims, and there are muslims out there who commit shirk by going to saints and invoking the saints thinking that they are using them as someone to intervene and put in a good word for them due to their piety to Allah swt and these people believe that by doing so Allah swt on the behalf of that saint will answer their prayers.
but these muslims dont go as far as describing that saint as a god or with godly features or abilities but hindus do with ram, prabu, vishnu , ganesh, shiva, kali mata etc.
I see your point in the first paragraph that the concept is flawed in that it looks to be a contradiction. However, I have heard so many times - especially in 'misconceptions about Islam' topics - that the Jews and Christians believe in the same God. Maybe I've missed something?.
Reply

Eeman
07-04-2008, 10:02 PM
[QUOTE=S1aveofA11ah;969652][QUOTE=Eeman;969649]
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah

I see your point in the first paragraph that the concept is flawed in that it looks to be a contradiction. However, I have heard so many times - especially in 'misconceptions about Islam' topics - that the Jews and Christians believe in the same God. Maybe I've missed something?.
Sorry brother i did not quite got what you meant there, as in jews and christians believe in the same God that we muslims believe in?

obviously the first scripture that was revealed was the torah which were to the jews, until they fabricated and added on and emmitted what suited them, the the injeel to the people that we now know as christians and yet the same thing happened there so the final book that was revealed was the Qu'ran and here we are Alhumdullilah! muslims.

so i would say that jews and christians believe in the same God but just believing in God is that enough? not implementing His laws and orders in life and striving for His sake, being righteous and totally dependent on Him, believing in Him as the One and only God, his books, messengers (all of them of course), angels, al qadar, paradise and hell.

and living life how it is meant to be lived by believing muslims, to serve Him and only Him.

so they may say that yes it is the same God but then again it makes you think, if it is the same God that everyone claims they believe and worship why you denying this God's true message and commands????
you say you believe in the God that we believe but you simply have a different message and follow different ways of life....

are these people then not what Allah swt refers to as the losers in His holy Qur'an

and if jews and christians were really and truely believers and believed God to be who believing muslims believe then why would Allah swt condemn them so much in the Qur'an.

cos they broke their covenant with Allah swt and transgressed, did their own souls wrong and therefore there is only one destination for these people jahanum...

It makes one think why would God condemn them in His true message by them believing in Him???

Dear jewish brothers and sisters please do not take what i have written into any form of offence i am cleary stating what our religion indicates.

everyone has their own beliefs and i love people from all works of life.
as long as the person has a good heart and is a good person to me it does not make any difference if your a hindu, jew or a christain agnostic or athiest.

plus in islam we are not taught or encouraged to treat people differently cos of their race gender background or religion, we get accounted for everthing, be it doing a fellow muslim wrong or a kafir.

so my apologisies i fi have said anything on this post that might have struck a wrong chord.

ma salama.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-04-2008, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Erm, we don't need to believe in anything but Allah. We respect other religions, but we don't follow them!

Get educated before you make silly posts. Allah belongs to EVERYBODY. Only fools quarrell over who he's for and who he's not for!
The only way to know Allah is see what He has said about himself. In the Qur'an Allah talks about Himself in His Own words by saying who He is, what His decreed religion is and who are the believers who believe in Him and His Oneness, while all other religions which claim to believe in Him and worship Him in pure form etc are rejected because these are not approved by Allah. Christianity and Jewdaism are different because at one time the chosen religion was Jewdaism but soon afterwords christianity came, confirmed what came before it and preceded it. Now Islam has come and it confirms what has come before it in the Torah and Gospel and Islam has preceded these two because it has come in it's complete form along side the greatest of creation and that is Muhammad (saaws). So you cannot 'own' Allah or talk about Him in any way that you want because you can only say about Him what He has said about Himself.

The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
[Surah Al 'Imran 3:19]
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The only way to know Allah is see what He has said about himself. In the Qur'an Allah talks about Himself in His Own words by saying who He is, what His decreed religion is and who are the believers who believe in Him and His Oneness, while all other religions which claim to believe in Him and worship Him in pure form etc are rejected because other religions were not something approved by Allah. Christianity and Jewdaism are different because at one time the chosen religion was Jewdaism but soon afterwords christianity came, confirmed what came before it and preceded it. Now Islam has come and it confirms what has come before it in the Torah and Gospel and Islam has preceded these two because has come in it's complete form. So you cannot 'own' Allah or talk about Him in any way that you want because you can only say about Him what He has said about Himself.
.[/B]
[Surah Al 'Imran 3:19]
This version was written by men (not even Mohammed the Prophet) so Sikhs do not follow such books. This account of what Allah is, means nothing to us.

Only God knows who he is, no man/woman can state any virtues of God. You believe the Quran, and Sikhs shall belive in their own.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-04-2008, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
This version was written by men (not even Mohammed the Prophet) so Sikhs do not follow such books. This account go what Allah is, means nothing to us.

Only God knows who he is, no man/woman can state any virtues of God. You believe the Quan, and Sikhs shall belive in their own.
What 'version'?

Media Tags are no longer supported


If this Qur'an is created by a man then accept this challenge, as Allah challenges you and all of mankind, to produce something better then it if you are true in your claim!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman

and what is the meaning of ram? or prabu or vishnu are these attributes of a One God or merely names?
Names.

I'm well aware of what the 99 names stand for and that they don't have a form.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
What 'version'?

EDIT: let me get the verse and i'll re-edit this post

If this Qur'an is created by a man then accept this challenge, as Allah challenges you and all of mankind, to produce something better then it if you are true in your claim.
The version of what the Quran states Allah is. NOBODY can describe an iota of God!

1 / kehan n jaaee thaeree thil vaddiaaee ||2||
they cannot describe even an iota of Your Greatness. ||2||

2 / keemath paae n kehiaa jaae ||
His Value cannot be estimated; He cannot be described.

3 / kaethae aakhehi aakhan paahi ||thaa aakh n sakehi kaeee kaee ||
Many speak and try to describe Him. even then, they could not describe Him.

4 / jae ko kehai pishhai pashhuthaae ||
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.



Something better than what?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-04-2008, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
The version of what the Quran states Allah is. NOBODY can describe an iota of God!

1 / kehan n jaaee thaeree thil vaddiaaee ||2||
they cannot describe even an iota of Your Greatness. ||2||

2 / keemath paae n kehiaa jaae ||
His Value cannot be estimated; He cannot be described.

3 / kaethae aakhehi aakhan paahi ||thaa aakh n sakehi kaeee kaee ||
Many speak and try to describe Him. even then, they could not describe Him.

4 / jae ko kehai pishhai pashhuthaae ||
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt.



Something better than what?
View my post again I made an edit.

But let me just comment on something, Allah described Himself in the Qur'an. And this description is as follows.

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.
[Surah Al Noor (The Light) 24:35]

Look into history and you will see that many of the desert arabs couldn't read nor write nor was Prophethood something that was known to them except for Prophet Abraham which was like 2000 years before the advent of Prophet Muhammad. Even if you claim that someone wrote it (the Qur'an) then that means it was due to a desire for some wordly gain. Muhammad was offered the riches of Arabia, the most beautiful woman as his wives and the leader of the nobelest tribe and that was the tribe of Quraish if he gives up his religion. Yet Muhammad rejected it because he (saaws) is the Messenger of Allah and his mission was to call people towards Islam and Allah! If Muhammad asked someone to 'author' a book then it would have been to gain something this world, why then would he refuse everything this world has to offer i.e. money, woman and fame?!

And as for the rest of the quotes you pasted, here is what Allah Himself has said about the like:

“And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: ‘This is from Allah,’ but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:78].
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
so ok got you.
basically he wasnt a muslim saint then and many people perform miracles and from islamic perspective these people are able to perform miracles cos they are in contact with the jinns.
No, he was in contact with Allah, no idea what the Islamic view is, neither is it of any concern to us.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
View my post again I made an edit.
I've seen this video before, back in 2007 this debate took place. Search the Sikhism threads, all questions have been asked and answered.
Reply

Eeman
07-04-2008, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
No, he was in contact with Allah, no idea what the Islamic view is, neither is it of any concern to us.
ok so would be kind enough to address my other question about why would a muslim holysaint who is in contact with Allah do such a thing?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
ok so would be kind enough to address my other question about why would a muslim holysaint who is in contact with Allah do such a thing?
What did he do, other than talk of Allah as he was told to by his creater?
Reply

Eeman
07-04-2008, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
lol dear brother im sorry if i wanna even debate on that.

so the muslim saints wrote the verses in the guru granth sahib.
now if these saints are muslim i.e believers of islam....
then they must have been followers of the Qur'an to be muslim right and practicing muslims...

now why on earth would they write lies about their own God that they believe and their own religion to create another religion or create a holy book for people to deviate from the true path of Allah to another path...

and you said muslim saints... it takes a long time and a lot of dedication and striving hard for the sake of Allah swt to become a saint, and then why wold they do such a thing commit such a major sin to earn the WRATH of Allah swt and spend eternity in Hellfire?

that just doesnt make sense to me from a muslim perspective and on top a muslim saint!
this was the question
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 11:15 PM
2. Page64 Line 9 Raag Sriraag: Guru Nanak Dev

ਅਲਾਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਅਗੰਮੁ ਕਾਦਰੁ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰੀਮੁ ॥
Alaahu alakh aganm kaadhar karanehaar kareem ||

He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.
:)
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-04-2008, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
That's what the Quran states, means diddly squat to Sikhs who have the actual authentic word of the Merciful Allah via the Ten Sikh Gurus. Which has not been altered like that of the Bible, Vedas, Geeta, Quran or Torah.
Look into history and you will see that many of the desert arabs couldn't read nor write nor was Prophethood something that was known to them except for Prophet Abraham which was like 2000 years before the advent of Prophet Muhammad. Even if you claim that someone wrote it (the Qur'an) then that means it was due to a desire for some wordly gain. Muhammad was offered the riches of Arabia, the most beautiful woman as his wives and the leadership of the nobelest tribe of arabia and that was the tribe of Quraish if he gives up his religion. Yet Muhammad rejected it because he (saaws) is the Messenger of Allah and his mission was to call people towards Islam and Allah! If Muhammad asked someone to 'author' a book then it would have been to gain something this world, why then would he refuse everything this world has to offer i.e. money, woman and fame?!

Where has the Qur'an been altered?

1 single proof that I can bring you that the Qur'an has not been altered is if you were to bring (out of random choice) 3 people from different parts of the world and they have never seen or met each other, they will recite to you the same qur'an that will be recited by every single member of this forum. 1.6 billion muslims and there many out of them who have memorized the book of Allah word from word, letter from letter and recited it at least 17 times every day.

If one person was to make a mistake in his recitation (i.e. he said something which isn't in the Qur'an) then another muslim would correct him and show him where he went wrong. This is the same Qur'an revealed 1400 years ago and historians are proof of this fact and not a single dot has been moved out of it's place.

How then can you claim the Qur'an to be distorted?!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
this was the question
Shri Sheikh Farid Ji came before Dhan Shri Guru Nanak Mahraaj Ji. Guru Ji added his vereses into the SGGS as it was the message of the Lord.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 11:20 PM
Please see Sikhism threads by using the search faciilty, and READ IT i won't repeat myself over things I have discussed before as have other Sikhs on here.
Reply

Eeman
07-04-2008, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Shri Sheikh Farid Ji came before Dhan Shri Guru Nanak Mahraaj Ji. Guru Ji added his vereses into the SGGS as it was the message of the Lord.
okaaaaaaaaaaaay brother i never asked which ji came to which ji... that never answred my question.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-04-2008, 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Please see Sikhism threads by using the search faciilty, and READ IT i won't repeat myself over things I have discussed before as have other Sikhs on here.
I'm not asking for what sikhism says i'm asking you.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Eeman
okaaaaaaaaaaaay brother i never asked which ji came to which ji... that never answred my question.
You need to re-read it then, it's self explantory!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
07-04-2008, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I'm not asking for what sikhism says i'm asking you.
What Sikhism says, I say.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-04-2008, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
What Sikhism says, I say.
And that is...?
Reply

Muhammad
07-04-2008, 11:29 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

The General section is not for comparative religion topics. Please discuss these in the appropriate section of the forum. Furthermore, this discussion is rapidly degrading into an argument and it is quite clear that this style of dialogue will not bear any fruit.

Thread Closed.
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