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Uthman
07-06-2008, 12:27 PM
Environmental activists blame it for damaging nature. Neo-Marxists judge it for serving the interests of capital. Feminists staunchly criticize its value-neutral claim. And Islamic scientists deem it wrong. It seems modern Western science is out of favor with a lot of people.

Science is everything but the scientists, say some academics, and it is at this very point that critics raise their voices -- namely, against the scientists' process of knowing things that very much shape the knowledge that is produced.

The Western theory of knowledge (epistemology) has been under fire particularly since 1962, when noted philosopher Thomas S. Kuhn introduced his concept of the "paradigm shift", provoking years of debates on so-called scientific objectivity and claims of the universality of science.

Feminist scientists, for instance, argue science is shaped by culture, historical context, gendered social construction and all the other social dimensions of scholars. Concluding that science is in the interest of men, they offer women's perspective of science.

Environmentalists (or ecologists) challenge the human-centered worldview that treats the natural world as a resource to satisfy human needs. This paradigm, they say, eventually led to the exploitation -- and thus the degradation -- of the natural world. They then developed an ecocentric worldview that portrays the human species as merely part of nature, not its "masters".

Yet another approach is offered by Islamic academics with their move to integrate religion and science. One of the proponents of the integralist paradigm is Mulyadhi Kartanegara, professor of Islamic philosophy at the Islamic State University (UIN) Syarif Hidayatullah in South Jakarta.

Mulyadhi supports the Islamization of science as he believes Islam teaches humans to live in harmony with nature. He argues that Islam has its roots in its theology of the environment because theology in general acknowledges the existence of the soul in nature.

Challenging the claim of the universality of science, the University of Chicago graduate comments, "The dominant philosophy of Western science does not acknowledge metaphysical existence (i.e., the spiritual realm). Their method is objective-empirical, meaning that what is perceived as reality is only what is measurable by the physical senses.

"They have left God behind; the scientists have neglected the divine role in nature, and no longer see nature as ayat Tuhan (God's revelation). Nature is perceived merely as an object, material without soul.

"At this very point we witness the failure of secular science, as it leads to destruction and multidimensional crises in human civilization," Mulyadhi said, referring to the environmental as well as social and biological degradation that characterizes the problems of the world today.

Unlike the Eastern religious concept of oneness of nature and humanity, Mulyadhi said in Islamic theology human beings play a role as khalifah, equipped with managerial rights over nature. As God's representatives, the way human beings treat Earth should not be against God's will.

"Disaster strikes when the representatives are not in line with their `boss'," he joked.

Mulyadhi is the author of several books on Islamic philosophy and epistemology, lecturer at Islamic higher education institutions and executive board member of various research institutions including the Center for Islamic Studies and Information (CIPSI) in Jakarta, the Islamic College of Advanced Studies (ICAS) and the Center of Islamic Epistemology of the UIN. He explains his position to The Jakarta Post.

Question: Why Islamic science?

Answer: As secular-modern sciences have led to multidimensional crises, there is a need to construct a new paradigm in research activities. Western thought has come to a deadlock now, into what is called "endism": the end of ideology, of history, of modernity. It is not only Islam that is responding to the West. I heard that in the near future there will be a meeting of world scientists in Japan, with the agenda of responding to the deadlock. They will search for alternatives, and Islamic scientists will be invited to present Islamic epistemology.

Q: Could you elaborate on what is Islamic epistemology?

A: Almost all Islamic schools of thought perceive nature as a living organism, and Islamic scientists work within this framework; we study nature as the science of God. Islamic epistemology acknowledges not only the physical senses, but also logic, intuition and revelation as the sources of knowledge. We are against reductionism in which knowledge is reduced into a mere physical experience.

When it comes to nonphysical phenomena, we use a demonstrative method, in which scientists demonstrate their right way of thinking, verified by logic.

Q: Religion is also about moral authority. Do you see any danger in framing science within a certain religion and do you think religion will be the solution?

A: Western scientists of the 19th century hoped science would replace religion, but the facts show it instead led to world wars.

Islam divides science into two categories: religious science and rational science. As long as it is not against the main Islamic teachings -- that is, belief in God, angels and the end of the world -- there is freedom in rational science.

Q: What will be your response if people perceive your criticism of Western science as parallel to that of the proponents of political Islam toward the so-called Western hegemony?

A: They (the Islamists) are against everything Western. We (Islamic scientists) are not anti-Western. We adopt their rigid and rigorous methodology when we study empirical phenomena, but we criticize their secular approach.

Furthermore, in this sense, we do not dichotomize the West and the East. We are dealing with the truth. In our framework, theism is the absolute category. Thus, when a paradigm negates God, we judge it as wrong and believe Muslims should find their own way to deal with science.

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Zarmina
07-09-2008, 06:54 PM
Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. :)
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جوري
07-09-2008, 07:25 PM
I don't think you can have strict or absolute science, and I am not sure how anyone can turn science secular and have it be anything other than a new cult with its own tenets and dogma with no basis whatsoever in logic?--- we give names to things abstract but that doesn't connote reason or rational!
It is just a matter of who calls dibs on a subject!

I enjoyed the article.. and would take some liberties to challenge even ones who render the entire scientific community, as strict materialists!

:w:
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Keltoi
07-10-2008, 03:51 AM
The divide between science and religion was caused by the combative relationship between the early scientists and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church wouldn't even entertain the notion that their geocentric worldview might be incorrect. It is no wonder that science and religion parted ways in the West.

I do agree with the article that modern science needs to at least entertain the notion of a divine source of creation, but its hard to see how this could be achieved while still maintaining the integrity of the scientific method. Many scientists are indeed people of faith, but the modern scientific method revolves around the idea of provable data. Perhaps science might stumble upon "proof" of divine creation at some point in the future, and this era of scientific knowledge will be looked down upon as ignorant and blind. Who knows.
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MustafaMc
07-10-2008, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I don't think you can have strict or absolute science, and I am not sure how anyone can turn science secular and have it be anything other than a new cult with its own tenets and dogma with no basis whatsoever in logic?--- we give names to things abstract but that doesn't connote reason or rational!
Your comment brought to my mind conversations on another thread regarding evolution. There is so much of this theory that is not logically or scientifically supported, yet it is put forward as indisputable fact instead of as an incomplete theory as one possibility for the origin of species. I agree with your statement that "new cult with its own tenets and dogma" could apply in this case.

Originally posted by Keltoi
I do agree with the article that modern science needs to at least entertain the notion of a divine source of creation, but its hard to see how this could be achieved while still maintaining the integrity of the scientific method.
Yes, I agree, the involvement of a Divine Entity falls outside the realm of science.
Many scientists are indeed people of faith, but the modern scientific method revolves around the idea of provable data. Perhaps science might stumble upon "proof" of divine creation at some point in the future, and this era of scientific knowledge will be looked down upon as ignorant and blind. Who knows.
Perhaps, but I don't think so. I would feel better if scientists would admit that portions of the Theory of Evolution are not yet provable and are in fact illogical without the involvement of a Creator; however, at the same time this involvement cannot be either proven nor disproven scientifically.
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Azy
07-10-2008, 03:18 PM
Turn science secular? Which part of the scientific method defines the religious doctrine to which the experiment must adhere?

Thanks for the post, very interesting.
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Trumble
07-10-2008, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
There is so much of this theory that is not logically or scientifically supported, yet it is put forward as indisputable fact instead of as an incomplete theory.
By who? I keep seeing this complaint, but am unaware of any scientists who actually make this claim regarding 'indisputable fact'. The real gripe seems to be far more about the reluctance of most scientists to accept ID or creationist based alternative theories as credible.

I would feel better if scientists would admit that portions of the Theory of Evolution are not yet provable and are in fact illogical without the involvement of a Creator; however, at the same time this involvement cannot be either proven nor disproven scientifically.
They would simply point out that you are contradicting yourself; if a ccreator is a logical requirement for a scientific process then it MUST be demonstrable scientifically.

'Logic' is a word frequently abused; it actually refers to the principles of reasoning. Those principles, like computer programs, are only as good as what is fed into them, in this instance a series of premises regarding the possible nature of God. As your premises include elements that you admit cannot be included within science, they would simply reject them and hence your 'logic'.
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Gator
07-10-2008, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
"At this very point we witness the failure of secular science, as it leads to destruction and multidimensional crises in human civilization," Mulyadhi said, referring to the environmental as well as social and biological degradation that characterizes the problems of the world today.
I think this has been more of a basic human failing in how we have used tools rather than of science itself.

The other stuff I'd say science is science and god is god and never the twain shall meet.
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Science101
07-13-2008, 06:53 PM
Science (theory) explains how things work from the proven facts that are available.

Only way to change science so that it says what one wants it to say, is to ignore proven facts that no honest person would ever ignore.




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AntiKarateKid
07-13-2008, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
I think this has been more of a basic human failing in how we have used tools rather than of science itself.

The other stuff I'd say science is science and god is god and never the twain shall meet.
Here let me help you out.

Allah created the earth. Science describes the earth.

Yet the twain shall never meet in Gator's head.

In closing

The Prophet PBUH said

To listen to the words of the learned, and to instill into others the lessons of science, is better than religious exercises.
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Tornado
07-13-2008, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Here let me help you out.

Allah created the earth. Science describes the earth.

Yet the twain shall never meet in Gator's head.

In closing

The Prophet PBUH said

To listen to the words of the learned, and to instill into others the lessons of science, is better than religious exercises.
Because evidence doesn't back that up, it's just not science. Sure, a god may have done it, but how exactly? ...and that's science. Saying god did it gets us no where, it's as I said, how?

Why does Earth orbit around the sun? God did it. It tells us nothing.
Better answer: Gravity, etc... (so god may have done it, but by itself is a very poor explanation.)
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BlackMamba
07-14-2008, 12:34 AM
I think finding out how the earth works show just how miraculous the creation is. And just because you find out how something works doesnt mean you know who made it. For example, lets say there is a machine thats functioning smoothly without anyone being able to see it because it is enclosed in a metal casing. When the casing is removed we see how all the various the cogwheels move with the other parts in the mechanism. Does this mean that, in discovering the mechanics of the thing, we truly understand the cause of its motion? And does knowing how it works give us proof that the machine is self-manufacturing, self-replicating, and works automaticallly?.....NO, how can you be atheist?
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Tornado
07-14-2008, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
And does knowing how it works give us proof that the machine is self-manufacturing, self-replicating, and works automaticallly?.....NO, how can you be atheist?
Sorry, this last bit I want to comment on. Your example is an argument from design. Indeed, the galaxies, planets, life do not actually need a creator and can occur by itself. Whether there was one or not doesn't matter to science. On track, putting god into science never gives any answers since god lies in a different magisteria than science.
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Science101
07-14-2008, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
I think finding out how the earth works show just how miraculous the creation is. And just because you find out how something works doesnt mean you know who made it. For example, lets say there is a machine thats functioning smoothly without anyone being able to see it because it is enclosed in a metal casing. When the casing is removed we see how all the various the cogwheels move with the other parts in the mechanism. Does this mean that, in discovering the mechanics of the thing, we truly understand the cause of its motion? And does knowing how it works give us proof that the machine is self-manufacturing, self-replicating, and works automaticallly?.....NO, how can you be atheist?
We are discovering much more than the mechanics, we are discovering how creation works. But there is some truth to what you said. Even though we can see how plants and animals including us evolved over time, it doesn't explain how the intelligence that produces it works.

To be as faith-friendly as I can, I wrote a "Theory of Intelligent Design" that scientific facts will support. The link has another version with links to the most exciting science I know of for people searching for what created us, the one and only Creator, that goes by many names.

The following is NOT what the Discovery Institute has. They protest science that others are doing. Are not doing science of their own. Which is why this is the only "Design Theory" that can stand on it's own scientific merit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Design Theory

In the Origin Of Life story, our creation through abiogenesis, some things happened as quickly as the self-assembly of cell membranes, to the self-assembly of more complex yet still easily self-assembled crystal-like ATP synthase and flagellum motors. They are designs that exist in the behavior of self-powered atoms, an expression of matter itself.

In life as we know it, DNA templates catalyze the production of protein that from there self-assemble into possible phenotype designs. At the lowest level of genotype designs are short lengths of code for protein subunits called conserved domains of 25 or more amino acids in length, that are reused in various combinations in genes to achive the next level of complexity that recombines them. This genetic code forms the long-term memory of a self-perpetuating metabolic cycle that goes one cycle per reproduction. This guess/memory type intelligence mechanism allows one small step at a time building upon a previous design, as is evidenced by the fossil record where never once was there not a design present for the new design to have come from.

Design does not always have to become more complex or be more advantageous to survival because the organism itself is in part intelligently and consciously directing their change in design by what it finds desirable in the variety available to select as a mate. Examples include the peacocks where females selecting the largest most attractive tail, led to males with brilliant displays, even though the giant tails make it difficult for them to fly. In humans the looks of "sex symbols" sometimes computer enhanced to represent the conscious ideals not yet common in our morphology.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://scientific-design-theory.blogspot.com/

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Science101
07-14-2008, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Sorry, this last bit I want to comment on. Your example is an argument from design. Indeed, the galaxies, planets, life do not actually need a creator and can occur by itself. Whether there was one or not doesn't matter to science. On track, putting god into science never gives any answers since god lies in a different magisteria than science.
Even if you knew all of the physics and every chemical reaction there was along the way and it does in fact prove to occur on its own, then that is what is responsible for creating us, correct? Science thus helps explain what the "Creator" is like, its shape and form, and how creation happened.
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Tornado
07-14-2008, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
Even if you knew all of the physics and every chemical reaction there was along the way and it does in fact prove to occur on its own, then that is what is responsible for creating us, correct? Science thus helps explain what the "Creator" is like, its shape and form, and how creation happened.
This thread isn't about whether a creator did it or not, it's about combining science and god. Science can never explain what a creator is like because god is in a different magesteria. Combining science and god is of no use because god as an explanation provides no useful information. Currently, there is no theory/fact in science that actually relies on god. Intelligent Design is not science, it's creationism (cdesign proponentsists, look at its history).
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Trumble
07-14-2008, 06:53 AM
Indeed. There is a vast - and unbridgeable - gulf between a science that is 'just' compatible with God and one that includes God. The latter would have little resemblance to science as we currently understand it.
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Science101
07-14-2008, 07:38 AM
Oh Trumble, Trumble, Trumble, don't be so negative. Just behold the power of science to bridge any gulf.

And Tornado, you are inaccurately now projecting what you conceptualize a Creator to be on others. You are the other side of the two possibility logical philosophical conclusion. Either science only evidences the existence a Creator. Or science only disproves the existence of a Creator. Each are equally valid. You can't change the way that works.

I am very much on the side with all the science in the world to work with as we search for a Creator. Can bring science we CAN do to the forum, while you can only tell everyone what they CANNOT do.

It's the same magesteria to me and most here, so the two work together for us but not you, but that's expected. Differing world views allow this kind of debate we are having that leads to new discoveries for us, which gives our differences a useful purpose. Healthy competition is good for science. And we're big-time challenging your way of thinking!

Even recently wrote the Scientific Theory of ID. So now I don't have to tell everyone that the theory the Discovery Institute described is impossible. Now I can show the forum a Design Theory that stands on its own scientific merit!

I'm still not sure what to do next with it. Have been kinda encouraged to publish the theory in a major science journal. But this is the most ridiculed theory on the planet we're talking about here. Five years ago I would have said only a nut would even bothered sending one to peer-review or even want one. But then came the classroom experiment then the Intelligence Detector then Creator Hypothesis then there it was. Making ID real is to me an academic challenge that is leading to all kinds of interesting things. Another new blog has free software for developing self-learning bots to study intelligence. to come after the Intelligence Generator/Detector and other things in the references on the Design Theory blog. I could actually win the Nobel Prize for it, never know. Makes going for publishing in Nature so tempting!

I have written science that is in the US schools through the major education journal there, so our side along with your side are actually advancing science education in a very real way you wouldn't even know about if I didn't tell you. Neither side wins all of the time, it can't, in a case like this where the truth is in the middle.

You have to realize that the Prophet Muhammad was totally into science. That was also mentioned on the previous page. And as it turns out the most revered Black-Stone he was certain had meaning, is according to scientific investigation most likely meteoric produced gas vesicles in impact melted mineral as in clay. There are also cellular vesicles, which readily form in water by shaking. Egg yolk is a good source of phospholipid molecules, with some oil in the water forming droplets that separate out of the mixture like the gas from the molten mineral. The membrane holds its shape so as not to pop to make a foam that cooled to the black-stone. Or with oil (olive works fine), water, and a few drops of egg yolk, a white tissue-like foam floats on the water. Is more on that and my perspective of Prophet Muhammad in topics I wrote that are now in archives.

How is that for Prophet Muhammad still having a way to inspire scientific creativity hey?

We could argue what is and isn't scientific until the end of time, but the only measure that matters in the end is how much came from it that will last forever. Have plenty of that. More than I imagined even to the point it actually gets scary but in a thrilling way that makes you want to jump on the ultimate scientific roller coaster of them all. All the result of trying to make ID real. Which for us at least, makes it the science that sustains us, even though it sounds way weird at first.
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AntiKarateKid
07-14-2008, 01:09 PM
Perhaps we are reading the topic wrong.

Maybe the problem is not whether God and science cooexist ( whatever that means), but rather the problem arises through the current perception of science.

These days it seems likea cult to some people. Oh we discovered the earth revolves around the sun.... GOD DOESNT EXIST!!

That ridiculous attitude is what irks theists. Allah created the earth and the Prophet advised us to learn science because along with faith in the true God, science disproves various false claims made by the false religions of this world. We are merely looking into the world and seeing not that Allah doesnt exist but that all that polytheistic or athiestic people in this world are wrong. Apollo and his chariot was a lie. 1 false god down... X to go. Religion turned out to be good for the mind rather than a disease like some fruitcake atheist psychiatrists claimed. 1 atheistic notion disproven... X to go. Through science we have also found many signs in the Quran from the embryology to the origin of Iron to strengthen our faith.

THIS is the meaning of science to a true theist. And when you brandish it in our faces like some weapon against our faith. Then we get mad.



53. Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?

54. Ah indeed! Are they in doubt concerning the Meeting with their Lord? Ah indeed! It is He that doth encompass all things!
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