Milan mosque 'to be closed down'

[Uthman]

A controversial mosque in the Italian city of Milan is to be shut down, the country's right-wing government says.

The Jenner mosque attracts about 4,000 Muslims each week, with Friday prayers often spilling out on to the street.

Now, after years of complaints from local residents, Italian Interior Minister Roberto Maroni has said he will close the mosque by August.

A leading Roman Catholic has accused Mr Maroni of behaving like a fascist. He has rejected that charge.

Rendition

The Jenner mosque is based in a converted garage.

Since it opened as an Islamic cultural centre in 1988, it has outgrown its cramped surroundings - much to the alarm of people living in the neighbourhood, says the BBC's Christian Fraser in Rome.

It has come under the spotlight several times for alleged links to extremism.

The Muslim cleric, Abu Omar, who was known for his fiery preaching, says he was kidnapped on his way to the mosque in 2003.

He claims he was then transferred to Egypt, where he was tortured.

Twenty-six suspected CIA agents and several Italian intelligence officials are currently on trial in Milan over his alleged rendition.

Most of them are being tried in absentia.

'Nomads'

Mr Maroni, who belongs to the anti-immigrant Northern League, has said he will press ahead with plans to close the mosque, and that anybody found praying in the street will be issued with a ticket.

The local Muslim community is being offered the use of a nearby stadium, in which the Beatles once played.

However, the council has said it can only be used four times each week and that each person will be charged on entry.

The president of the mosque, Abdel Hamid Shaari, has said he is happy to pay rent but that its members "won't be treated like nomads".

"We are Milanese and we are not going to accept the solution that's being offered," he said.

Catholic support

The Catholic church has come out in support of the Muslim community.

The Roman Catholic priest in charge of inter-faith relations in Milan, Monsignor Gianfranco Bottoni, said that only a fascist or populist government would resort to such dictatorial methods as closing a mosque.

In an interview with the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, Mr Maroni said he was addressing residents' complaints that worship regularly spilled out on to the street.

He said he had faced similar criticism from the UN children's fund (Unicef), when the Italian government announced that it was fingerprinting all Roma people of gypsies.

However, he had convinced Unicef that the move would help get Roma children into mainstream schools, he said.

Source

[Amadeus85]

Its bad that immigrants must pay price for faults and false ideologies made by our homegrown european progresists.

[root]

From 1995 to the present, northern Italy—with its mosques in Viale Jenner and Via Quaranta in Milan—has been an important base for Islamic militants, which have used it for: recruiting mujahideen for Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya; recruiting suicide bombers for the Zarqawi network in Iraq; supplying forged documents for international operations; illicit financial activities; illegal immigrant trafficking; and providing a base of support for fugitives

Source:http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/n...icleid=2369789

[niler]

The terrorists shud be punished but not all worshipers shud be inconvenienced!!

if they dont want people praying on the streets then i believe there r other alternatives to be followed rather than closing a place of worship.. for instance another storey can be built..

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[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Great, so muslims have a prayer tax. I don't know whether to laugh or to cry at the absurdity of someone having to pay to fulfil a basic requirement of one's religion. I wonder how the non-muslims would feel if Saudi Arabia started charging a ''church tax'' for Christians. Probably wouldn't go down to well...

Saudi-man:' 'Sorry, you don't have enough money to use this facility''
Random Christian: ''WHAT! Look, all I want to do is make a quick prayer -I'd do at at home normally but my house is 40 minutes away. It's just a quick prayer...''
Saudi-man: ''I don't make the rules, I just enforce them''
Random Christian: ''You jerk hole! Dang, look what you made me do. Now I have to make a confession!''
Saudi man: ''Prayer is 2 american dollar. Confession is extra. If you buy today, you can get a money off voucher for your next prayer need: 10% off - what a bargain!''

Note: I have nothing against Christians or any other religion for that matter. I am merely pointing out the absurdity of this situation and flip-reversing it towards another religious group. If you found the above insulting, I apologise.

[niler]

Great, so muslims have a prayer tax. I don't know whether to laugh or to cry at the absurdity of someone having to pay to fulfil a basic requirement of one's religion. I wonder how the non-muslims would feel if Saudi Arabia started charging a ''church tax'' for Christians. Probably wouldn't go down to well...

Saudi-man:' 'Sorry, you don't have enough money to use this facility''
Random Christian: ''WHAT! Look, all I want to do is make a quick prayer -I'd do at at home normally but my house is 40 minutes away. It's just a quick prayer...''
Saudi-man: ''I don't make the rules, I just enforce them''
Random Christian: ''You jerk hole! Dang, look what you made me do. Now I have to make a confession!''
Saudi man: ''Prayer is 2 american dollar. Confession is extra. If you buy today, you can get a money off voucher for your next prayer need: 10% off - what a bargain!''

Well put Brother!!! cudnt hav said it better meself!!!

[Al-Zaara]

If people are angry that Muslims are in the streets praying during the Friday prayers because of lack of space, rather give them more space than closing it all down and thus making so much more damage, not just for the Muslims, but the whole community.

Similiar news from Spain: Spain’s Many Muslims Face Dearth of Mosques

As places of worship go, the crudely converted garage leaves much to be desired, said Mr. Kouitene, vice president of the Islamic Association for Union and Cooperation in Lleida, a prosperous medieval town in northeastern Spain surrounded by fruit farms that are a magnet for immigrant workers. Freezing in winter and stifling in summer, the prayer hall is so cramped that the congregation, swollen to 1,000 from 50 over the past five years, sometimes spills onto the street.

Further (quite interesting) readings about Muslims' situations in Italy:

Italy: Muslim prayer area risks closure at northern tennis club

"Bepi Zambon, former tennis champion and owner of the exclusive Tennis Club Zambon has allocated two courts for local Muslims to worship on - one for men and the other for women."

“Mamma li Turchi!!” and the Saladin Syndrome : Part One

"To be a Muslim and live in Italy, particularly in the north of the country, politically dominated by the far-right parties Lega Nord (North League, a secessionist party) and Alleanza Nazionale (National Alliance, the bigger post-fascist party), is not just difficult, it is a nightmare."

“Mamma li Turchi!!” and the Saladin Syndrome : Part Two

"Of course, when there is a crime, they are the first to be suspected, and I am speaking of ordinary crimes. For instance, recently, a woman was kidnapped, and the Italian mass media reported that the woman was kidnapped by an alleged ‘Moroccan gang’. In reality the kidnapping, which ended in tragedy, was very much, as usual, the work of an Italian. This was not the first time, nor will it be the last, that horrific crimes would be attributed to Muslims, generally called Marocchini."

[Uthman]

I'm very pleased to hear about the Catholic community supporting the Muslim community in Italy. They're setting a great example.

[Izyan]

Well put Brother!!! cudnt hav said it better meself!!!

Christians do pay a tax it's called the jiyza. Since when are there even churches in SA?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Christians do pay a tax it's called the jiyza. Since when are there even churches in SA?

All non-muslims in an Islamic state pay Jizya - it's the only tax they have to pay and it has nothing to do with prayer facilities. Muslims in that state are subject to the other 3 taxes: zakat, sadaqa and 'Ushra.

I believe there was a thread about a church in saudi arabia not long ago.

[Ali.]

...

What the hell.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Its not suprising, Italy invented fascism...
:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

I'm not sure why exactly are they shutting it down, links to extremism or people praying in the streets? I don't think the second is a reason enough to close it down (and nor is the first for that matter..), ticketing street prayers and the stadium thing seem like a good idea, a new mosque would be the ultimate solution though. The question is whether the locals would like it.

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:
Its not suprising, Italy invented fascism...
:w:

Cow hater, shoo, shoo!

[Brother_Mujahid]

matter..), ticketing street prayers and the stadium thing seem like a good idea,

muslims pray 5x a day.. you think its okay to charge each time they go to the stadium which oh by the way will only be available for four days. :s they can just get thier idea print it off twist it side ways, fold it in half, scrunch it up, rip it into small pieces, set alight the little pieces and then sweep up the ashes...... before finally blowing the ashes into the wildernesh (wilderness)

quite frankly the solution offered sucks and is not practical... just refer back to amirsaabs beautiful hyperthetical situation.

[Whatsthepoint]

muslims pray 5x a day.. you think its okay to charge each time they go to the stadium which oh by the way will only be available for four days. :s they can just get thier idea print it off twist it side ways, fold it in half, scrunch it up, rip it into small pieces, set alight the little pieces and then sweep up the ashes...... before finally blowing the ashes into the wildernesh (wilderness)

quite frankly the solution offered sucks and is not practical... just refer back to amirsaabs beautiful hyperthetical situation.

The point is that the mosque is too small for all people wanting to pray so some of them go out on the streets. The muslim community didn't do anything to prevent that so the government is offering them a temporary solution until they build a new mosque or something. They can't give them the stadium for free naturally, so it's normal they be charged, leasing the stadium seems a better solution that entrance fees though. the 4-day limit is understandable, a stadium is a stadium, you can't expect it to be available for Muslims 24/7.

[Fishman]

Cow hater, shoo, shoo!

:sl:
The cows hate you and every one of us...

They hate our freedoms!
:w:

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Alternatively, they could just pray on the streets or grassland etc. But then you'd get mad farmers and oaps in general saying ''get off my land....arrr!'' Leading us into circles: closs down the mosque, don't pray on the streets. Wow, terrific options there!

To be honest, it comes down to the community not liking muslims and Islam (you could tell them this to their face and they'll deny it every time but everyone knows it - it's staring you in the face!)

Well, that's milan crossed off the holiday list.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Alternatively, they could just pray on the streets or grassland etc. But then you'd get mad farmers and oaps in general saying ''get off my land....arrr!'' Leading us into circles: closs down the mosque, don't pray on the streets. Wow, terrific options there!

:sl:
You would also get cows trying to gun them down if they prayed on the grassland...


Anyway, if, as Whatsthepoint said, the reason for the closure was because people had to pray on the streets and the Mosque didn't do anything about it, then why didn't they do anything about it? I suspect that if they had tried to get an extension or something, the Lega Nord people would stop them from buying it.
:w:
:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

Anyway, if, as Whatsthepoint said, the reason for the closure was because people had to pray on the streets and the Mosque didn't do anything about it, then why didn't they do anything about it? I suspect that if they had tried to get an extension or something, the Lega Nord people would stop them from buying it.
:w:
:w:

I suspect the actual reason has nothing to do with people praying in the streets, however they can't shut down a mosque just like that..
It's true though that building or upgrading a mosque is a tough job in continental Europe, let alone Italy.

[Brother_Mujahid]

*shrug*

Rome will one day be in the hands of the muslims its inevitable. Our prophet told us that constantinople (turkey) and rome would both be the muslims. Turkey is already a muslim land... its only a matter of time before rome too will be a muslim city.

[Amadeus85]

*shrug*

Rome will one day be in the hands of the muslims its inevitable. Our prophet told us that constantinople (turkey) and rome would both be the muslims. Turkey is already a muslim land... its only a matter of time before rome too will be a muslim city.

And now you have the answer why more and more europeans dont want mosques in their backyards.

[Brother_Mujahid]

And now you have the answer why more and more europeans dont want mosques in their backyards.

weh weh weh :'(

im just stating a prophecy that WILL be fulfilled whether you or i or any other guy for the fact of the matter likes it or not.

[Mukafi7]

:w:

Brothers and Sisters,

This is simply just an excuse to force Muslims out of the region. They can package it any way they want, but the fact of the matters is that Italy had been leading this charge against Muslims for hte past 5 years. Oh, well! they are asking for it....

[AvarAllahNoor]

Great, so muslims have a prayer tax.

Don't non-muslims have to pay tax too in Islamic countries? Jizya or something? Can't complain when it's happening to you dude. :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

*shrug*

Rome will one day be in the hands of the muslims its inevitable. Our prophet told us that constantinople (turkey) and rome would both be the muslims. Turkey is already a muslim land... its only a matter of time before rome too will be a muslim city.

I'd like to read this verse, do you have it? Any mention of how they'd do it?

[Brother_Mujahid]

I'd like to read this verse, do you have it? Any mention of how they'd do it?

if i was able to produce and show it now, would it bring you closer to the faith, understanding and love of islam?

if not then im not gonna tire to look for it.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=226

also a few more narrations of what will happen towards the end of time...

http://islamworld.net/docs/hour/Four.txt

hope this helps.

[Fishman]

if i was able to produce and show it now, would it bring you closer to the faith, understanding and love of islam?

if not then im not gonna tire to look for it.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=226

also a few more narrations of what will happen towards the end of time...

http://islamworld.net/docs/hour/Four.txt

hope this helps.

:sl:
Is it referring to the Roman Empire or the city of Rome?

Also, although today we call it the 'Byzantine Empire', at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) nobody used this name, both halves of the Empire were called 'Rome', even though the original Roman Empire was destroyed in 476 AD, hundreds of years before Hijrah.
:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

Most people interpret Rome as Europe.

[aamirsaab]

Don't non-muslims have to pay tax too in Islamic countries? Jizya or something? Can't complain when it's happening to you dude. :)

Yes, they do have to pay jizya tax. However, jizya is not a tax for praying to God. Basically, there are 4 taxes to pay in an islamic state: jizya, zakat, 'ushr and sadaqah. Non-muslims only have to pay the one tax; jizya (which goes to fund the military that protects the state and them!) so it's cheaper for non muslims to live in an islamic state. If anything, non-muslims are better off practicing their religion in an islamic state since it is the state's (and all the muslims in it) duty to protect those places of worship and those people.

[Uthman]

Non-muslims only have to pay the one tax; jizya (which goes to fund the military that protects the state and them!)

Indeed. Non-Muslims are exempt from military service in an Islamic state, so that is their contribution towards the defence of the country.

[Whatsthepoint]

Come one, no one's taxing anyone, they'll have to pay for the stadium, that's all.

[Keltoi]

:sl:
Is it referring to the Roman Empire or the city of Rome?

Also, although today we call it the 'Byzantine Empire', at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) nobody used this name, both halves of the Empire were called 'Rome', even though the original Roman Empire was destroyed in 476 AD, hundreds of years before Hijrah.
:w:

True, the word Byzantine wasn't used until the 16th century by historians. It was called the Eastern Roman Empire. The root of Orthodoxy and a major influence on Russia. But that is a different story. :D

[Keltoi]

Indeed. Non-Muslims are exempt from military service in an Islamic state, so that is their contribution towards the defence of the country.

Unless you have a draft or mandatory military service that is pretty much the story in the U.S. Everyone is exempt from military service, they just have to pay taxes to support it.

[Amadeus85]

I just wonder how big is the Jizzyah tax. Maybe its much bigger than all the muslim taxes?
Anyway non muslims still cant be in political powers thr right? So they cant have influence whats hapenning in also their country(state).
Anyway non muslims in islamic Italy wouldnt be able to change the poltical system, just like in totalitarian system. So its sux for them no matter how you try to show it.
Besides its offtopic.

[Uthman]

Unless you have a draft or mandatory military service that is pretty much the story in the U.S. Everyone is exempt from military service, they just have to pay taxes to support it.

Cool. Although I'm not sure, I'm guessing that military service would be obligatory on Muslim men in an Islamic state. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Uthman]

I just wonder how big is the Jizzyah tax. Maybe its much bigger than all the muslim taxes?

As far as I'm aware, it's smaller than the Zakat. Again, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Fishman]

Cool. Although I'm not sure, I'm guessing that military service would be obligatory on Muslim men in an Islamic state. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

:sl:
I heard somebody say somewhere that an Islamic state doesn't have the right to force people into the millitary. But I can't remember when I read it.
:w:

[aamirsaab]

Come one, no one's taxing anyone, they'll have to pay for the stadium, that's all.

Indeed. My post was making a mockery out of the system: it's forcing muslims to pay to pray (close down the mosque but you can use this stadium...if you pay up)

Aaron, I'll cover the Islamic state and rulings on it at a later date - it will cover that point about jizya tax.

[Whatsthepoint]

Indeed. My post was making a mockery out of the system: it's forcing muslims to pay to pray (close down the mosque but you can use this stadium...if you pay up)

It's not like that at all.

[Al-Zaara]

It's not like that at all.

And how is it then? Please enlighten us.

[Whatsthepoint]

And how is it then? Please enlighten us.

As I said before, the mosque is to small, people are praying in the streets, which is a major safety concern. Unless the mosque does something to prevent people form praying outside, it has to be shut down (or the prayers ticketed). The government has offered the Muslim community a temporary solution, that is the use of the stadium, until they've built a new mosque or upgraded the old one, if that is possible.
You can't expect the city authorities to lease the stadium for free, after all it is the nuslim community that failed provide sufficient premises for all of its followers.

[Fishman]

As I said before, the mosque is to small, people are praying in the streets, which is a major safety concern. Unless the mosque does something to prevent people form praying outside, it has to be shut down (or the prayers ticketed). The government has offered the Muslim community a temporary solution, that is the use of the stadium, until they've built a new mosque or upgraded the old one, if that is possible.
You can't expect the city authorities to lease the stadium for free, after all it is the nuslim community that failed provide sufficient premises for all of its followers.

:sl:
But to do anything to stop people praying on the streets, it has to either expand, which the Lega Nord wouldn't allow, or stop people praying there, which is what the Lega Nord wants to do anyway. So basically, the Lega Nord wants to shut down the Mosque because they are bigots, not road saftey activists.
:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:
But to do anything to stop people praying on the streets, it has to either expand, which the Lega Nord wouldn't allow, or stop people praying there, which is what the Lega Nord wants to do anyway. So basically, the Lega Nord wants to shut down the Mosque because they are bigots, not road saftey activists.
:w:

That's probably true, but legally speaking they've done nothing wrong.
Are you sure the League won't allow the mosque to be upgraded? Do they even have the authority for that? Perhaps the building can't be upgraded, after all it is based in a garage of some sort.

[Fishman]

That's probably true, but legally speaking they've done nothing wrong.
Are you sure the League won't allow the mosque to be upgraded? Do they even have the authority for that? Perhaps the building can't be upgraded, after all it is based in a garage of some sort.

:sl:
Yeah, legally speaking they haven't done anything wrong, and don't need to, as they are in power and can make the law...

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't do that, given how the local populace is already annoyed that the Mosque has expanded before.
:w:

[Al-Zaara]

As I said before, the mosque is to small, people are praying in the streets, which is a major safety concern. Unless the mosque does something to prevent people form praying outside, it has to be shut down (or the prayers ticketed). The government has offered the Muslim community a temporary solution, that is the use of the stadium, until they've built a new mosque or upgraded the old one, if that is possible.
You can't expect the city authorities to lease the stadium for free, after all it is the nuslim community that failed provide sufficient premises for all of its followers.

But this is the problem I see. Why shut the whole mosque down? Can't they hire a few other locations at the same time as the mosque is open, in which the Muslims could help pay (the rent) together, instead of taking a ticket for every single Muslim wanting to go to pray and at the same time for only a limited amount of time? Take a rent for the time given to pray from the Muslim community, instead of each individual?

I know the money given would be almost the same in all those cases, but the situation is seen through a whole different light when it's many people paying together one thing (rent) instead of every man for himself, making it seem as if they are wanted to stop to pray altogether.

I hope I make sense.

[Whatsthepoint]

But this is the problem I see. Why shut the whole mosque down? Can't they hire a few other locations at the same time as the mosque is open, in which the Muslims could help pay (the rent) together, instead of taking a ticket for every single Muslim wanting to go to pray and at the same time for only a limited amount of time? Take a rent for the time given to pray from the Muslim community, instead of each individual?

I know the money given would be almost the same in all those cases, but the situation is seen through a whole different light when it's many people paying together one thing (rent) instead of every man for himself, making it seem as if they are wanted to stop to pray altogether.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, you make perfect sense, I think we can all agree that the league aren't exactly road safety activists as Fishman put it.
But I guess there are reasons why shut the whole mosque down, if it remains open, people will still prefer to pray there than in a stadium which might result in people praying in the street and this is what the league says they are trying to prevent.
Yeah, I said before leasing the stadium would be a much better solution. So far nothing is definite, there's only suggestions and political talk, the end agreement will probably be much different.

[Amadeus85]

In current Der Spiegel (german magazine) there is very good article about building new mosques in Europe.
The article points out that there is a difference between a mosque and a mega mosque.
A mega mosque has islamic kindergarten, islamic school, islamic restaurant, small islamic hospital, islamic bank,an islamic field for playing games, an islamic cinema.
All things made so that Arabs, Pakistanis or Turks remain isolated from the european societies. With all these things they wouldnt even have to try to learn the language.
And since we all agree that islam is not just a religion but also a political system and law, so allowing to build such mega mosques is simply creating islamic enclaves in the middle of Europe.
On the other hand muslims know that such behaviour is dangerous. They are wise indeed. Only Indonesia has closed few dozens churches in last year.

[Fishman]

In current Der Spiegel (german magazine) there is very good article about building new mosques in Europe.
The article points out that there is a difference between a mosque and a mega mosque.
A mega mosque has islamic kindergarten, islamic school, islamic restaurant, small islamic hospital, islamic bank,an islamic field for playing games, an islamic cinema.

:sl:
Nope, a 'Mega-Mosque' is just something tabloids invent when they want to scare people. It's taken from the word 'mega church', used to refer to massive and (often politicised) churches that are found in America.

Of the things on your list:

• most Mosques (mega or otherwise) include some kind of Islamic school or 'kindergarten', but this does not usually replace secular education.
• Some large Mosques have fields or places to play sports in, which is meant to be a good thing as it discourages obesity.
• Some Mosques have a kitchen, which is used to keep or prepare food to be eaten on special occasions. These are from my experience messy places containing packets of old biscuits and flat coke.
• Given that worldly talk is forbidden in Mosques, Islamic banks are not often found there, I think putting banks in a Mosque is like how the Jews put a marketplace in the Temple of Jerusalem before Jesus (pbuh) smashed it.
• There are no such things as Islamic hospitals and Islamic cinemas, and if they do exist it is probably just a marketing ploy. They certainly don't exist in Mosques.

:sl:

[highlander]

It really breaks my heart to see such controversy over a worship place. I hope there will be a way to solve this without creating even a bigger gap between the western society and ways and muslim ways
.
As someone said before, maybe it would be possible to rent some place so that people dont pray on the streets.

It would be also good for the worshippers since Italy is not a warm climate( weather wise) all along the year and maybe it would be quite uncomfortable for people to pray in the rain/mud etc or simply in the cold.