/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Swiss minaret ban gains momentum



Uthman
07-08-2008, 09:31 PM
In Switzerland some 115,000 people have signed a proposal to ban the building of minarets.


There are currently only two minarets in Switzerland

The campaign is being organised by the right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament.

Under Swiss law, a group can request a national referendum if it manages to collect 100,000 signatures.

The SVP claims the minaret is not needed for worship, but is a symbol of Islamic law, therefore incompatible with the Swiss constitution.

Buildings with minarets, they argue, symbolise a "political-religious claim to power, which challenges fundamental rights".

Islam, they say, "places religion above the state and... completely contradicts the federal constitution".

Polarisation


The campaign wants to force a nationwide referendum on the issue which, under Switzerland's system of direct democracy, would be binding.

The country's Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey has said the government will oppose the text.

The Federation of Churches also called the move "inappropriate".

"Polarisation is a bad thing. We should be working on integration," it said in a statement.

The move has shocked Switzerland's 350,000 Muslims, many of whom have been campaigning for decades for more recognition for their faith.

In theory, Switzerland is a secular state, whose constitution guarantees freedom of religious expression to all.

In practice, however, correspondents say that mosques in Switzerland tend to be confined to disused warehouses and factories.

Across the country, there are only two small minarets, one in Zurich and one in Geneva, neither of which can be used to make the call to prayer.

In Switzerland's capital Bern, the largest mosque is in a former underground car park.

Source
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Uthman
08-14-2009, 06:21 AM
Town becomes focus of right-wing campaign ahead of controversial referendum.

The normally sleepy Swiss country town of Langenthal has become the focus of a virulent right-wing campaign to ban minarets from all mosques in the Alpine republic on the grounds that they symbolise ideological opposition to the country's constitution.

Switzerland's "stop minaret" movement is backed by the influential ultra-conservative Swiss People's Party, (SVP) which was re-elected in 2007 with its largest ever share of the vote after mounting an anti-foreigner campaign that was denounced by the United Nations as racist.

Ulrich Schüler, an SVP parliamentarian and leading member of the anti-minaret movement, says the edifices are political rather than religious. "They are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in our constitution," he said.

Switzerland is home to a population of about 400,000 Muslims, the majority of whom are Turks, Bosnians and Albanians. The "stop minaret" campaign was launched two years ago, prompting a national debate on the subject. A petition in support of its aims has since been signed by more than 100,000 citizens. Under Swiss law the issue now has to be decided by a national referendum which will be conducted in late November.

However, before then, the "stop minaret" campaign is hoping to create a legal precedent by thwarting construction of a minaret in Langenthal, a provincial town halfway between Bern and Basel that is home to 14,000 people and 11 churches.

Thomas Rufener, the town's mayor, said about eight per cent of Langenthal's residents were Muslims. "All the main parties have given their approval for the mosque," he said. The regional canton of Bern has given approval in addition for the construction of a domed mosque. That will stand alongside the planned minaret which will be little more than 30 feet high.

An anti-minaret campaign has now lodged a formal complaint with the canton, claiming that the planned mosque amounts to an "ideological intrusion". Daniel Zigg, a campaign spokesman, said the building would attract more than 100 Muslim believers a day during the Ramadan fast because it was the only one of its kind in the canton.

The anti-minaret campaigners are hoping to force Bern to rescind its approval for the minaret and score an important victory in the run-up to the November referendum. "There may be different laws governing this kind of thing in certain part of Paris or Berlin, but we don't want them in Switzerland," Mr Schüler said.

Two years ago his party fought a general election with famously xenophobic campaign posters depicting a flock of white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland.

Switzerland has permitted the construction of mosques with minarets in major cities such as Geneva, Zurich and Winterthur where they have been accepted with little noticeable objection. However the inauguration of a mosque with a minaret in the small town of Wangen in June brought protests from the "stop minaret" movement and accusations that the town's Muslim community had links with the right-wing Turkish extremist group, the Grey Wolves.

Switzerland's Muslim community has been largely reluctant to discuss the anti-minaret campaign. Ahmed Sadaqat, Imam at Zurich's Balgrist mosque, the first to be built in Switzerland in 1963, recalled last week how the building provoked vociferous protests at the time. But he added: "Since then there have be no problems at all." He accuses the anti-minaret campaigners of failing to make any distinction between Islam, the burqa and terrorism. "They should accept that Muslims are a fact in this society and that they live here. They must accept this reality," he said.

Source
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
08-14-2009, 07:27 AM
:sl:
these banning "fiasco's" are just getting so utterly pathetic, they're becoming quite comical. are they going to ban crosses on churches as well?
they ignore the bigger issues affecting their societies and turn their utmost attention on...two minarets.

They are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in our constitution," he said.
says the one whose "pro-ban"
Reply

GuestFellow
08-14-2009, 10:20 AM
Ulrich Schüler, an SVP parliamentarian and leading member of the anti-minaret movement, says the edifices are political rather than religious. "They are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in our constitution," he said.
You wish. :hiding:

This is stupid.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
aamirsaab
08-14-2009, 02:18 PM
:sl:
Ban the hijab...check

Ban the niqab...check

Ban the minarets...check.

Hurrah for freedoms and democracy!
Reply

aadil77
08-14-2009, 02:33 PM
atleast they haven't banned the hijab and niqab, have they?

and what about church spires? they should ban them as well
Reply

Zafran
08-14-2009, 02:40 PM
salaam

lol people are realy scared in europe so scared that they are starting blame the minerats of being power hungry!

peace
Reply

aamirsaab
08-14-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
atleast they haven't banned the hijab and niqab, have they?
France has banned hijab. And there is an increasing interest in banning the niqab, at least in the UK.

and what about church spires? they should ban them as well
[sarcasm]Don't forget to ban Jesus on the Cross![/sarcasm]
Reply

aadil77
08-14-2009, 03:13 PM
[QUOTE]
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
France has banned hijab. And there is an increasing interest in banning the niqab, at least in the UK.
yeh they just need one kaboom bomber to detonate whilst wearing a niqaab

and its over for the niqaab wearing sis's
Reply

Muezzin
08-14-2009, 03:17 PM
Extreme right BNP-alike parties of all countries really have nothing better to do with their time. It's actually quite sad.
Reply

GuestFellow
08-14-2009, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Ban the hijab...check

Ban the niqab...check

Ban the minarets...check.

Hurrah for freedoms and democracy!
You forgot burkini ;D

This is another case of Xenophobia. They can ban and blame everything on Islam. When problems in the countries shall still continue to rise, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Reply

Zafran
08-14-2009, 04:11 PM
France has banned hijab. And there is an increasing interest in banning the niqab, at least in the UK.
Is there??? Pat condell doesnt represent anything about the UK except the extreme Islamophobic element of it.
Reply

GuestFellow
08-14-2009, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Is there??? Pat condell doesnt represent anything about the UK except the extreme Islamophobic element of it.
Asslamu Alikum

We are just hearing a few individuals ranting on about banning the Burka. Nothing offical. The government does not have time to deal with trivial matters. Very unlikely they shall introduce a bill to ban the Burka.
Reply

Uthman
08-14-2009, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
yeh they just need one kaboom bomber to detonate whilst wearing a niqaab

and its over for the niqaab wearing sis's
What planet have you been on, bro? http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...spokesman.html

:heated:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-14-2009, 06:11 PM
Fine go ahead ban the minaret...and that's supposed to do what exactly? Lol. People are still going to give the adhaan, go to the masjid, have the same "thoughts" as they always do.

They're just running out of things to ban that has anything to do with Muslims or Islam ;D

What a sad and pathetic attempt! Good Lord!

Funny.
Reply

Amadeus85
08-14-2009, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

and what about church spires? they should ban them as well
Mind that You are not in Pakistan, sire.
Reply

Zafran
08-14-2009, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Mind that You are not in Pakistan, sire.
Does the government of pakistan ban spires?
Reply

GuestFellow
08-14-2009, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Does the government of pakistan ban spires?
Salaam.

No I don't think so. I think the Saudi government do.
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 07:46 PM
this is too funny.. are they looking for a mob scene when they are too froufrou to fight .. given how often they bend to receive, that I can't imagine it too hard to kick their A$$ from that position. It isn't difficult to challenge that I imagine from how many of their kings and queens lost their heads to an angry mob scene!
Reply

Amadeus85
08-14-2009, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Does the government of pakistan ban spires?

No, but no one there speaks about banning minarets.
Reply

crayon
08-14-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
:sl:
these banning "fiasco's" are just getting so utterly pathetic, they're becoming quite comical.
Seriously. I guess politicians just have too much time on their hands. Perhaps if they spent as much energy into trying to fix the economy as they did coming up with new and improved ways to be idiots, the world wouldn't be in as deep a dump as it is now.
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 08:04 PM
I get a perverse pleasure admittedly from seeing them crumble to bits and their economy down the dumps, just for the massive media manipulation to wipe us out in the name of 'fighting terrorism' if nothing else.. Afghanistan was the final nail in Russia's coffin and it is now for the U.S.. it doesn't matter what incentive they use.. Sob7an Allah.. afghanistan for all its suffering is truly a land of stoics!


I am hungry for a baked potato ..
:w:
Reply

Muezzin
08-14-2009, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Seriously. I guess politicians just have too much time on their hands. Perhaps if they spent as much energy into trying to fix the economy as they did coming up with new and improved ways to be idiots, the world wouldn't be in as deep a dump as it is now.
That's ridiculous. Extreme right wingers aren't familiar with the concept of 'work'.
Reply

Uthman
11-08-2009, 07:36 AM
Swiss Muslims open mosque doors

Muslims in many parts of Switzerland have invited the public into mosques - three weeks before a vote on whether to ban the construction of minarets.


Muslim organisations say they hope their open day will counter what they say are fears and prejudices.

The conservative group that initiated the vote - the largest party in the Swiss parliament - says minarets are a symbol of Muslim political power.

Opinion polls suggest the proposed ban will be rejected by voters.

A Muslim community leader in Zurich, Tamir Hadjipolu, said the proposal - launched by the right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP) - was "open discrimination".

Preaching to the converted?


Switzerland is home to 400,000 Muslims, who have about 200 places of worship. Only four have a minaret, local media say.

The open day was held on Saturday in 12 cantons, including Geneva, Vaud and Freiburg.

"We hope these meetings will build a dialogue and better understanding," said Hisham Maizar, a senior Muslim representative in eastern Switzerland.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, who visited a mosque in Zurich, says the many non-Muslims who came enjoyed themselves.

But the debate is raging outside the building, our correspondent says, and the Muslims inside were likely to be preaching to the converted.

Source
Reply

Caller الداعي
11-08-2009, 07:47 AM
is having a minaret necessary ? ? ?
Reply

Supreme
11-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Disgraceful act of religious discrimination. The Swiss Government should feel ashamed they are even contemplating such a silly measure.
Reply

Amadeus85
11-08-2009, 01:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Disgraceful act of religious discrimination. The Swiss Government should feel ashamed they are even contemplating such a silly measure.
Like it or not but religious discrimination is part of christian history and tradition. Every strong and dominant religion has some aspects of intolerance.
Reply

Supreme
11-08-2009, 01:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Like it or not but religious discrimination is part of christian history and tradition. Every strong and dominant religion has some aspects of intolerance.
Indeed, but I thought the West got rid of state discrimination long ago. Isn't freedom the reaons our fathers fought and died for? If people can't have freedom of religion, then what is the point of a democracy? It all seems rather poignant.
Reply

Fishman
11-08-2009, 01:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Like it or not but religious discrimination is part of christian history and tradition.
If discrimination is part of your traditions, then change them! Following traditions is not compulsory.

Every strong and dominant religion has some aspects of intolerance.
And every strong and dominant nation has either had many aspects of religious tolerance, or was built on the blood and bones of it's people.

Persians, Romans, all the Chinese dynasties, the Holy Roman Empire, Poland-Lithuania, many Islamic dynasties, Britain, Russia, The Marathas, the Sikhs, the Mongol Khaganate, the Americans, Austria-Hungary and many others were all at least partially innvigorated by racial and religious tolerance. Even today, the most powerful countries are mult-ethnic, multi-religious countries, not small monolithic nation-states.

:wa:
Reply

Amadeus85
11-08-2009, 10:11 PM
[QUOTE=Supreme;1241889]
Indeed, but I thought the West got rid of state discrimination long ago
Yes, but here we must notice the difference between Christendom and "West" (liberal, protestant and masonic).

. Isn't freedom the reaons our fathers fought and died for?
Not my forefathers, as they always fought for catholic state.

If people can't have freedom of religion, then what is the point of a democracy? It all seems rather poignant
.

I also wonder since some time, whats the point of it. ^o)
Reply

Esther462
11-08-2009, 10:34 PM
I think minarets are good if there is a large population of muslims but in small towns not a good idea. The dome is fine.

No the hijab and niqab ban. We live in democacy with the freedom to choose what we do.
Reply

Amadeus85
11-08-2009, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
I think minarets are good if there is a large population of muslims but in small towns not a good idea. The dome is fine.

No the hijab and niqab ban. We live in democacy with the freedom to choose what we do.
So You are a muslim and You believe in democracy and freedom to choose what we do? ::muddlehea
Reply

Ramadhan
11-09-2009, 04:07 AM
It is wrong for the Swiss government to ban construction of minarets, although my view is minarets are not necessary anyway.

We all would not be able to recognize the original masjidil nabawwi as a mosque because of its extreme simplicity (it didn't have roof, and the floor was dirt ground!)
Reply

Esther462
11-09-2009, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
So You are a muslim and You believe in democracy and freedom to choose what we do? ::muddlehea
Yes I do believe in democaracy and freedom.
Reply

Muslimlearner
11-09-2009, 03:42 PM
Brothers and sisters in Europe (and not only)
do HIJRAH to muslim land !


,,When Ahmad b. Hanbal was tortured, did he go off to the lands of unbelief? I ask you: Ahmad b. Hanbal and others, then Ibn Taymîyah, when [the rulers] harmed them incessantly and imprisoned them, did they flee to the lands of unbelief? Allâh bless you, he should be patient, he should live in his own country * even in prison, it is better for him than going to Europe and America, especially since these [countries] have measures and policies to recruit Muslims into their societies, to Christianize them and convert them to atheists and heretics (zanâdiqah). These are old strategies which they are applying now and many corrupt preachers and corrupt scholars are striving to recruit Muslims into European societies now..''

by Shaykh Rabî¹ Al-Madkhalî ,masha'Allah for this words!
Reply

rpwelton
11-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Minarets and domes are not necessities; for the first we have speakers and the latter is not something even Rasulullah did.

BUT, if Muslims in Switzerland do not fight this, then what's next? Surely if the government believes they can knock down the minarets, then next will be hijab, niqaab, the beard...etc. They won't stop until Muslims (as weak as we already are) become totally disenfranchised and lose all sense of power.
Reply

OurIslamic
11-09-2009, 04:29 PM
For those who don't know:

MINARETS are the tall, slender tower like structures of the mosque which can be seen afar. These structures never existed during the time of Prophet Mohammad (Pbuh). But the minarets have become the integral part of Islamic faith and culture. Minarets are deemed as the lighthouses of faith.

At the time of the Prophet and the caliphs there were no minarets even in the Prophets' Mosque in Madinah. Even after the introduction of azaan this concept was never thought of. The principle that higher the altitude farther will carry the voice was applied by the early callers. The call for the prayer was initially made from a pillar on the roof of Abdullah Ibn Umar's house. The muezzin Billal Habashi would climb and reach the top to call azan. Later Caliph Al-Walid Ibn Abdul Malek built four minarets, one on each corner of the mosque. These were the Islam's first minarets. He had hired Greek architects to build them. Later minarets were constructed in the great mosque of Damascus by the Caliph Al Walid.


Examples:

Reply

Supreme
11-09-2009, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Minarets and domes are not necessities; for the first we have speakers and the latter is not something even Rasulullah did.

BUT, if Muslims in Switzerland do not fight this, then what's next? Surely if the government believes they can knock down the minarets, then next will be hijab, niqaab, the beard...etc. They won't stop until Muslims (as weak as we already are) become totally disenfranchised and lose all sense of power.
Oh, well as long as they're not necessary, let's ban them!

The point here is not whether they are necessary. The point here is that there is now one less thing Swiss Muslims can do in the self proclaimed 'free' West.

Also, domes weren't present on mosques at first. I remember reading somewhere that the domes were added after the Muslims saw the beautiful Eastern Orthodox Christian churches in the Holy Land.
Reply

Supreme
11-09-2009, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OurIslamic
For those who don't know:

MINARETS are the tall, slender tower like structures of the mosque which can be seen afar. These structures never existed during the time of Prophet Mohammad (Pbuh). But the minarets have become the integral part of Islamic faith and culture. Minarets are deemed as the lighthouses of faith.

At the time of the Prophet and the caliphs there were no minarets even in the Prophets' Mosque in Madinah. Even after the introduction of azaan this concept was never thought of. The principle that higher the altitude farther will carry the voice was applied by the early callers. The call for the prayer was initially made from a pillar on the roof of Abdullah Ibn Umar's house. The muezzin Billal Habashi would climb and reach the top to call azan. Later Caliph Al-Walid Ibn Abdul Malek built four minarets, one on each corner of the mosque. These were the Islam's first minarets. He had hired Greek architects to build them. Later minarets were constructed in the great mosque of Damascus by the Caliph Al Walid.


Examples:


Does the Dome of Rock have a minaret?

Also, aren't they supposed to point to Mecca?
Reply

rpwelton
11-09-2009, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Oh, well as long as they're not necessary, let's ban them!

The point here is not whether they are necessary. The point here is that there is now one less thing Swiss Muslims can do in the self proclaimed 'free' West.
Did you read the second part of my post?
Reply

Supreme
11-09-2009, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Did you read the second part of my post?
That wasn't directed at you; but rather everyone who doesn't care because they're not necessary.
Reply

mkh4JC
11-09-2009, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
atleast they haven't banned the hijab and niqab, have they?

and what about church spires? they should ban them as well


Italy just ruled to ban crucifixs in the classroom.
Reply

Blackpool
11-14-2009, 12:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Italy just ruled to ban crucifixs in the classroom.
**** some are on a mission to ban religion :hmm: It seems people are being forced to be secular.
Reply

Amadeus85
11-14-2009, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Italy just ruled to ban crucifixs in the classroom.
But italian goverment didnt allow that silly rule.
Reply

Uthman
11-26-2009, 11:49 PM
They're going to vote on it this weekend. This article from the Guardian: Swiss to vote on mosque minarets ban
Reply

Uthman
11-27-2009, 12:45 PM
This one from the Associated Press: Swiss vote on proposal to ban minarets
Reply

Uthman
11-27-2009, 05:16 PM
It seems that the vote will take place on Sunday.

BBC article: Switzerland to vote on plan to ban minarets
Reply

Amadeus85
11-27-2009, 09:04 PM
I dont have opinion about this issue. Depends what stands behind Swiss decisions. If they want to ban minaretes, because these buildings are against some secular rights, so imho its bad decision. But if the Swiss want to ba minaretes to defend their christian tradition (which is less lilely, to be honest), i could support that.
Reply

Supreme
11-27-2009, 09:40 PM
I wouldn't support it on the grounds that Switzerland is a free country that is developed and democratic, and anyone should be able to exercise their religion/religious traditions.
Reply

Uthman
11-28-2009, 09:40 PM
Women lead Swiss in vote to ban minarets
Reply

KAding
11-28-2009, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
They're just running out of things to ban that has anything to do with Muslims or Islam ;D
What else have they banned that has to do with Muslims?
Reply

Uthman
11-29-2009, 12:32 PM
The vote is taking place today.

Swiss go to polls on proposed minarets ban

Minaret poll casts a dark shadow over Switzerland
Reply

Amadeus85
11-29-2009, 02:03 PM
Media says that most Swiss people voted for banning the minarets.
Reply

titus
11-29-2009, 04:15 PM
They are doing it for secular reasons? Are they going to ban steeples also?

What a ridiculous vote.
Reply

Supreme
11-29-2009, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
You can understand their concerns, however; no Muslim country (well, Saudi Arabia, but that never counts) has banned anything to do with churches; beautiful churches exist in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan and the like, yet the populaces of those countries aren't asking for a ban on churches.
Reply

Uthman
11-29-2009, 04:54 PM
Switzerland appears to have backed minaret ban

Voters in Switzerland appeared to have backed a call to ban minarets from mosques, according to early exit poll results.


A pedestrian walks past a display advertising the initiative against the construction of new minarets in Switzerland, in Geneva
Photo: REUTERS

Thirty minutes after the referendum finished at midday, Swiss television reported: “The initiative would appear to be accepted. There is a positive trend. It’s a huge surprise.”

According to the respected gfs.bern polling institute an estimated 59 per cent of voters backed the ban. A majority of cantons were also in support of the initiative.

“A majority have voted for a nationwide ban on the construction of minarets,” said the institute’s director Claude Longchamp, speaking on Swiss Radio DRS.

For the Swiss constitution to be changed, the majority of the electorate and a majority of the cantons are required to vote ‘yes’.

A survey two weeks ago showed 53 per cent said they would reject it. Both the government and parliament had rejected the initiative.

Commentators had said the country risked international pariah status and a backlash across the Muslim world if a ’yes’ vote was achieved.

If the exit polls prove correct it will be a huge shock and Switzerland risks international pariah status and a backlash across the Muslim world.

Sunday's vote was forced by members of the far-right Swiss People's party (SVP) which has provoked a national debate over immigration with powerful billboard images.

The stark "stop" posters depicting a Muslim woman in a burka against the backdrop of a Swiss flag studded with missile shaped black minarets have been banned in many towns.

Hanspeter Rentsch, an executive director at the watch company Swatch, has warned that the referendum, and the poster propaganda, could damage Switzerland in the eyes of the world.

"The 'Swiss' brand must continue to represent values such as openness, pluralism and freedom of religion. Under no circumstances must it be connected with hatred, animosity towards foreigners and narrow-mindedness," he said.

Campaigners demanded the referendum to halt "political Islamisation" by amending the Swiss constitution to add a clause stating "the construction of minarets is prohibited".

Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf, the Swiss justice minister, has suggested that a vote for a ban could fuel Islamist radicalism and violent protests, such as those that greeted Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in 2006.

"This is not an appropriate instrument for combating religious extremism. It risks the opposite, of serving the cause of fanatics," she said.

But Oskar Freysinger, an SVP MP, compares warnings of anger in the Muslim world to the arguments used by "appeasers" of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

"It is what Chamberlain thought in Munich in 1938. If these are the consequences, it is the proof that what we are doing to defend ourselves is legitimate," he said.

The vote is required because campaigners got over 100,000 signatures on a petition against minarets triggering a vote under the Swiss constitution.

The campaign followed a row over a minaret in the tiny town of Langenthal, in the Bern canton of Switzerland.

Earlier this year Langenthal's 750 Muslims asked for planning permission to add a minaret, 30 feet high, to their mosque in a town with 11 churches and 14,500 inhabitants.

The reaction to the apparently harmless request has polarised Switzerland and crossed borders to feed into British, French, Dutch and Austrian fears over Islam and national identity.

"This minaret is a symbol of conquest and power which marks the will to introduce Sharia law as has happened in some other European cities. We will not accept that," said Ulrich Schueler, an SVP politician and leader of the "stop" minaret campaign.

Muslims have rejected the argument that a minaret symbolises Muslim power. Mutalip Karaademi, leader of Langenthal's Muslim community and of Albanian origin, accused Mr Schueler of telling "dirty lies".

"A minaret is a symbol nothing more. It s nice to see a house of god with a minaret or a church steeple or cupolas on a synagogue," he said.

"They call us terrorists. They call us Taliban, so many labels all wrong. They insult us. We love this country, almost more than our own. Our children were born here."

Source:Telegraph
Reply

Uthman
11-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Article from The Times: Swiss voters 'back ban on building of minarets'
Reply

Esther462
11-29-2009, 06:38 PM
Thats ashame. What are the swiss going to ban next I wonder?
Reply

Uthman
11-29-2009, 06:50 PM
From the BBC: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

And Al Jazeera: Minaret ban wins Swiss support
Reply

crayon
11-29-2009, 07:31 PM
It's not Islam that's on a power trip here... :><:

It's not surprising really, there's the same anti Islam sentiment all over the rest of Europe, it's just being manifested in different ways- minarets in Switzerland, hijab in France, cartoons in Denmark, etc. People are just afraid of the potential danger they perceive Islam as.
Reply

Supreme
11-29-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
It's not Islam that's on a power trip here... :><:

It's not surprising really, there's the same anti Islam sentiment all over the rest of Europe, it's just being manifested in different ways- minarets in Switzerland, hijab in France, cartoons in Denmark, etc. People are just afraid of the potential danger they perceive Islam as.
That's exactly what it is. Fear, fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of something people don't fully understand, fear being perpetuated by far right politicians who know the lies they're spreading will only catch on with the lesser educated.
Reply

ThomasRudin
11-29-2009, 08:00 PM
Hi there

I'm Thomas from Switzerland.

I really can't believe what happened today. It's unbelievable.

Actually me and all my friends (who are against this stupid initative) where pretty sure it would have no success. It's so unreal right now. I'm really ashamed to be a swiss citizen.

It's so rediculous. Well I think the initiative is in some way illegal. It started to forbid minarets without any thought behind that (which is obviously ridicilous as well), that's why the federal assembly was not able to forbid the initiative.

In the mean time, SVP thought it would be a good idea to push all this in a way higher level..scare people with those "scary" posters and saying that it's not about the minaret, it's about switzerlands religion changing to islam.
I really did not hear ANY argument FOR the initiativ which is reasonable..

This hole thing is such a joke.. That's why I post here, to see what you think about the hole thing.

What do you think are there for consequences?

You can ask me any questions if you want.

Best Regards
Thomas
Reply

Mujahideen92
11-29-2009, 10:23 PM
Thats pretty sad. Conservatives make me sick
Reply

KAding
11-29-2009, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
That's exactly what it is. Fear, fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of something people don't fully understand, fear being perpetuated by far right politicians who know the lies they're spreading will only catch on with the lesser educated.
I disagree with that. It is not 'fear of the unknown'. It is fear of something they do know and don't like. It is intolerance. I also do not believe it is a dislike that is somehow fed top-down by 'far right politicians'. Rather, I think anti-Islamic sentiments are very much at the grass-roots. Some politicians are merely voicing it.
Reply

Amadeus85
11-29-2009, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
You can understand their concerns, however; no Muslim country (well, Saudi Arabia, but that never counts) has banned anything to do with churches; beautiful churches exist in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan and the like, yet the populaces of those countries aren't asking for a ban on churches.

In Egypt copts find it very difficult not only to build new churches but also to repair the old ones. If I am right in true islamic state minorities can't build new temples, they must use the ones already built or Im wrong? Besides, that swiss law will ban only building new minarets, and those already existing will stand further.
Of course that this new ban is against freedom of religion, but we traditional catholics, orthodox jews and muslims all agree that freedom of religion is against our religions, its a man made doctrine created by the enemies of the faith.
Reply

Uthman
11-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Swiss referendum 'reflects unease with Islam'
Reply

Uthman
11-29-2009, 10:56 PM
Comment by Tariq Ramadan:

My compatriots' vote to ban minarets is fuelled by fear


The Swiss have voted not against towers, but Muslims. Across Europe, we must stand up to the flame-fanning populists.

It wasn't meant to go this way. For months we had been told that the efforts to ban the construction of minarets in Switzerland were doomed. The last surveys suggested around 34% of the Swiss population would vote for this shocking initiative. Last Friday, in a meeting organised in Lausanne, more than 800 students, professors and citizens were in no doubt that the referendum would see the motion rejected, and instead were focused on how to turn this silly initiative into a more positive future.

Today that confidence was shattered, as 57% of the Swiss population did as the Union Démocratique du Centre (UDC) had urged them to – a worrying sign that this populist party may be closest to the people's fears and expectations. For the first time since 1893 an initiative that singles out one community, with a clear discriminatory essence, has been approved in Switzerland. One can hope that the ban will be rejected at the European level, but that makes the result no less alarming. What is happening in Switzerland, the land of my birth?

There are only four minarets in Switzerland, so why is it that it is there that this initiative has been launched? My country, like many in Europe, is facing a national reaction to the new visibility of European Muslims. The minarets are but a pretext – the UDC wanted first to launch a campaign against the traditional Islamic methods of slaughtering animals but were afraid of testing the sensitivity of Swiss Jews, and instead turned their sights on the minaret as a suitable symbol.

Every European country has its specific symbols or topics through which European Muslims are targeted. In France it is the headscarf or burka; in Germany, mosques; in Britain, violence; cartoons in Denmark; homosexuality in the Netherlands – and so on. It is important to look beyond these symbols and understand what is really happening in Europe in general and in Switzerland in particular: while European countries and citizens are going through a real and deep identity crisis, the new visibility of Muslims is problematic – and it is scary.

At the very moment Europeans find themselves asking, in a globalising, migratory world, "What are our roots?", "Who are we?", "What will our future look like?", they see around them new citizens, new skin colours, new symbols to which they are unaccustomed.

Over the last two decades Islam has become connected to so many controversial debates – violence, extremism, freedom of speech, gender discrimination, forced marriage, to name a few – it is difficult for ordinary citizens to embrace this new Muslim presence as a positive factor. There is a great deal of fear and a palpable mistrust. Who are they? What do they want? And the questions are charged with further suspicion as the idea of Islam being an expansionist religion is intoned. Do these people want to Islamise our country?

The campaign against the minarets was fuelled by just these anxieties and allegations. Voters were drawn to the cause by a manipulative appeal to popular fears and emotions. Posters featured a woman wearing a burka with the minarets drawn as weapons on a colonised Swiss flag. The claim was made that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Swiss values. (The UDC has in the past demanded my citizenship be revoked because I was defending Islamic values too openly.) Its media strategy was simple but effective. Provoke controversy wherever it can be inflamed. Spread a sense of victimhood among the Swiss people: we are under siege, the Muslims are silently colonising us and we are losing our very roots and culture. This strategy worked. The Swiss majority are sending a clear message to their Muslim fellow citizens: we do not trust you and the best Muslim for us is the Muslim we cannot see.

Who is to be blamed? I have been repeating for years to Muslim people that they have to be positively visible, active and proactive within their respective western societies. In Switzerland, over the past few months, Muslims have striven to remain hidden in order to avoid a clash. It would have been more useful to create new alliances with all these Swiss organisations and political parties that were clearly against the initiative. Swiss Muslims have their share of responsibility but one must add that the political parties, in Europe as in Switzerland have become cowed, and shy from any courageous policies towards religious and cultural pluralism. It is as if the populists set the tone and the rest follow. They fail to assert that Islam is by now a Swiss and a European religion and that Muslim citizens are largely "integrated". That we face common challenges, such as unemployment, poverty and violence – challenges we must face together. We cannot blame the populists alone – it is a wider failure, a lack of courage, a terrible and narrow-minded lack of trust in their new Muslim citizens.

Tariq Ramadan, a Swiss citizen, is professor of contemporary Islamic studies at Oxford University. His most recent book is What I Believe

Source
Reply

جوري
11-29-2009, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
In Egypt copts find it very difficult not only to build new churches but also to repair the old ones. .
You are so very full of crap. I am asking you once again to refrain from speaking about places where you have never been and know nothing about.. the way you use the term copt around like it is a religion already tells me how so very full of **** and under-educated you are!

on a separate note: I think swiss Muslims should do what they can to show solidarity and get these cretins where it hurts.. I don't know by what means, could be economic or what not, but it shouldn't be made to slide.. the rest of the Muslim world should show solidarity as well by banning products or whatever else diplomatic relations.. I really think all these little crusades and buttons being pushed here and there is going to come crashing on Europe very soon. The Muslim world when awakened and it is stirring as we speak will be a force to be reckoned with.. if they are looking for an Armageddon, this is then a very good start!


May Allah swt make Muslims victorious in every spot of the earth

ameen
Reply

Amadeus85
11-29-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You are so very full of crap. I am asking you once again to refrain from speaking about places where you have never been and know nothing about.. the way you use the term copt around like it is a religion already tells me how so very full of **** and under-educated you are!

on a separate note: I think swiss Muslims should do what they can to show solidarity and get these cretins where it hurts.. I don't know by what means, could be economic or what not, but it shouldn't be made to slide.. the rest of the Muslim world should show solidarity as well by banning products or whatever else diplomatic relations.. I really think all these little crusades and buttons being pushed here and there is going to come crashing on Europe very soon. The Muslim world when awakened and it is stirring as we speak will be a force to be reckoned with.. if they are looking for an Armageddon, this is then a very good start!


May Allah swt make Muslims victorious in every spot of the earth

ameen

Skye, You have quoted only short part of my post, and the one which is, I guess, convenient to You. It doesnt change the fact that muslims in muslim world make it hard for christians to build churches, from Morocco to Indonesia, and I accept this fact, because this is a muslim world. I would expect same understanding for situation in Europe, and forget the secular constitutions, because constitution which goes against natural laws is just a piece of paper.
Reply

جوري
11-29-2009, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Skye, You have quoted only short part of my post, and the one which is, I guess, convenient to You. It doesnt change the fact that muslims in muslim world make it hard for christians to build churches, from Morocco to Indonesia, and I accept this fact, because this is a muslim world. I would expect same understanding for situation in Europe, and forget the secular constitutions, because constitution which goes against natural laws is just a piece of paper.
There isn't much substance to what you write.. other than that, this has nothing to do with building churches or secularism, even if I were to accept that at face value, it is about removing a lively part of your existing churches .. say I go to Egypt and demand that they remove alters from churches and push for a state wide ban.. mind you 'Midan al gamai3' in Egypt literally has more churches than mosques even though it is entitled the mosque square ...

let's make true your wishes and cut down the over-sized monstrosities that have blemished the Muslim identity in Islamic countries ey.. Let's see how well that will be perceived









a frank waste to mar Egypt with pagan imageries and to waste perfectly gorgeous sites overlooking the water with such eye sores!
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-30-2009, 03:08 AM
what a joke. really, its humorous.
Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 03:54 AM
They only have three mosques there or so, it must be really threatening.. hope this campaign too blows in their face insha'Allah as the interest increases in Islam.. the harder they try, the more more people convert to Islam insha'Allah :D

:wa:
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-30-2009, 03:56 AM
^ lol, yes it usually goes that way, innit :X ;D
Reply

Ramadhan
11-30-2009, 04:14 AM
The Swiss people have traded their integrity over such trivial issue and a non-existant problem.

They have shown their true color.
Reply

Amadeus85
11-30-2009, 08:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
The Swiss people have traded their integrity over such trivial issue and a non-existant problem.

They have shown their true color.
Mhmm, so You wanna tell me that Islam is not privileged religion in Indonesia right...?
Reply

KAding
11-30-2009, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
They only have three mosques there or so, it must be really threatening..
2.2% of the population is Muslim. There are close to a hundred mosques in Switzerland.

Or to use your kind of language: "you are so full of crap" :exhausted :p
Reply

KAding
11-30-2009, 11:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
They have shown their true color.
The "true color" of most people is one of conservatism and protecting ones own cultural heritage, regardless of the political arrangements in a country.

I am curious if this will ever actually become a law, as I can imagine there are some constitutional obstacles.
Reply

OurIslamic
11-30-2009, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Mhmm, so You wanna tell me that Islam is not privileged religion in Indonesia right...?
Approx. 86% of people in Indonesia are Muslim...
Reply

OurIslamic
11-30-2009, 01:30 PM
"Although it [Indonesia] has an overwhelming Muslim majority, the country is not an Islamic state. Over the past 50 years, many Islamic groups sporadically have sought to establish an Islamic state, but the country's mainstream Muslim community, including influential social organizations such as Muhammadiyah and NU, reject the idea."
Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
2.2% of the population is Muslim. There are close to a hundred mosques in Switzerland.

Or to use your kind of language: "you are so full of crap" :exhausted :p
Ah, but there are only three or four minarets in the whole of Switzerland regardless of of the percentage of Muslims and they seem so threatening, that it can only elicit a guffaw from the rest of us!
There are only four minarets among the tens of thousands of church spires in Switzerland but the SVP campaigned against them as a symbol of Islamic political influence, which it claimed could eventually undermine the nation's Christian values and democracy.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225805496535

so I'd still say it is you that is full of crap :D

all the best of course
Reply

Ramadhan
11-30-2009, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
The "true color" of most people is one of conservatism and protecting ones own cultural heritage, regardless of the political arrangements in a country.
what constitute swiss cultural heritage?
is there such lists that tells what's part of swiss cultural heritage and whats not?
How can a few minarets threaten swiss cultural heritage?

How about pagoda? do you think they could also threaten swiss cultural heritage?
do you think the swiss people will also vote to ban a few of these:

Reply

Ramadhan
11-30-2009, 02:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Mhmm, so You wanna tell me that Islam is not privileged religion in Indonesia right...?
You are talking out of your backside again.

what do you mean by privileged?

Did you know that the holidays of all major religions are recognised as state holidays in Indonesia?. Yes, and that includes christmas, good friday, easter, the days of prophet Jesus pbuh resurrection and ascencion, Waisya' (the birthday of Buddha), Nyepi and galungan and Kuningan (Balinese Hindu holidays).
Try to compare that with Western countries who are constantly boasting about their secularism and liberalism and freedom of this and that and yet recognise only christian holidays as state holidays, refusing to acknowledge other religious holidays, and as the latest case shows, refusing the rights of followers of other religion to build such minor religious thing such as minarets.

Did you know that there is a huge cathedral next to the Istiqlal mosque and a big protestant and anglican churches nearby? did you know that there are hundreds of thousands of churches and temples all over Indonesia?
Did you know that christians have been aggressively building churces in areas where there are extremely few christians, thus causing frictions with local residents?
Did you know that christian missionaries have been using aggressive and deplorable tactics (bribing kids, spreading lies, etc) for years in areas where there are no christian in defiance to government rule, thus causing frictions with the local residents and governments?

Despite Indonesia being the largest muslim country in the world, Indonesia do not implement sharia law (which I think we should by the way). And even under sharia law, people of different religions would still enjoy their rights to practice their religions anyway.
Reply

Supreme
11-30-2009, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There isn't much substance to what you write.. other than that, this has nothing to do with building churches or secularism, even if I were to accept that at face value, it is about removing a lively part of your existing churches .. say I go to Egypt and demand that they remove alters from churches and push for a state wide ban.. mind you 'Midan al gamai3' in Egypt literally has more churches than mosques even though it is entitled the mosque square ...

let's make true your wishes and cut down the over-sized monstrosities that have blemished the Muslim identity in Islamic countries ey.. Let's see how well that will be perceived









a frank waste to mar Egypt with pagan imageries and to waste perfectly gorgeous sites overlooking the water with such eye sores!
Is it me, or does anyone else find it ironic how you posted astoundingly beautiful churches and then claim they were eyesores? You may be angry at the story, as am I, but this is not a Christian move and you don't need to post some amazingly beautiful churches in Egypt and complain about them to get your point across!
Also, I wouldn't call Egypt a 'Muslim' country, if only because so **** many of its people aren't actually Muslim. A 'Muslim majority' country would be a better phrase.

Also, to the poster before me, Indonesia is a very liberal country when it comes to religion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is silly.
Reply

KAding
11-30-2009, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
what constitute swiss cultural heritage?
is there such lists that tells what's part of swiss cultural heritage and whats not?
It is up to the Swiss to decide what belongs to their cultural heritage. I'm sure they don't all agree! According to the campaigners, the heritage is "Christian values and democracy".

How can a few minarets threaten swiss cultural heritage?
If you ask me they cannot. But clearly this is all about symbolism. Those 60% are actually saying 'we don't like Islamization of our country'.

But to be quite frank, I don't quite understand how you as a Muslim can have such trouble grasping the sentiment that is at the root of this vote? Surely Islam teaches to dislike or even prohibit that which can lead to sin, which includes anything that can lead Muslims astray? To remove things that may "tempt or confuse the people"?

Surely it is exactly that sentiment that explains rulings such as:
- Rulings against non-Muslim proselytizing
- Rulings against Muslims converting to another religion
- Rulings against non-Muslims marrying Muslims
- Rulings against building churches in 'Muslim lands'
- Rulings against giving Zakaat to non-Muslims
- Rulings on destroying idols
- Etc..etc...

I understand that there isn't always consensus on these matters within Islamic circles. But surely many of such rulings are accepted by many Islamic scholars.

All these serve the same purpose. Creating an unequal playing field between different religions. It is exactly what this Swiss vote seems to have in mind. Namely restricting religious freedom in the name of 'protecting' ones own traditional values. As a liberal I cannot approve of it myself.

How about pagoda? do you think they could also threaten swiss cultural heritage?
No. Because Eastern religions are not considered a threat by virtually anyone, which (unfortunately) is not true for Islam. Islam is also thought to be political, which makes it a more likely target. To put it in Islamic terms, Islam is considered kufr. And conservatives attempt to do what they generally believe is a good idea when in their eyes something 'undermines the pillars' of their culture of beliefs: outlaw it.

Now lets hope that the Swiss constitutions, which is thankfully based on more liberal principles, prevents this vote from leading to actual laws that outlaw minarets.
Reply

KAding
11-30-2009, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Ah, but there are only three or four minarets in the whole of Switzerland regardless of of the percentage of Muslims and they seem so threatening, that it can only elicit a guffaw from the rest of us!
There are only four minarets among the tens of thousands of church spires in Switzerland but the SVP campaigned against them as a symbol of Islamic political influence, which it claimed could eventually undermine the nation's Christian values and democracy.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225805496535
Except you weren't talking about minarets, but mosques.

so I'd still say it is you that is full of crap :D
But anyway. The actual point of my post was to use your own words against you in the hope that you would come to an understanding such language ('you are full of crap') really isn't all that pleasant when you are at the receiving end. I had hoped this would perhaps prevent you from using it in the future.

I guess that didn't quite work out imsad. Just goes to show that fighting fire with fire is a losing strategy!
Reply

Masuma
11-30-2009, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

How about pagoda? do you think they could also threaten swiss cultural heritage?
do you think the swiss people will also vote to ban a few of these:

Asalamu alikum Wa Rehmatullahi Wabarakatuh!

You are right brother. I agree with your point.

This is not about secularism, nor is there involved any case of liberal society. All I can see it is an anti-Islamic propaganda! Islam is a threat to their society according to them, whereas they fail to realize that Islam is just the opposite. It is a mercy and will prove to be, if they implement Islamic Shariah there.

Of course it has never been a "so-called threat" to their cultural heritage!
Because if it would have been, then the churches and pagodas etc would have been banned too!
Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Except you weren't talking about minarets, but mosques.
No, I was talking about Minaret, not reading doesn't excuse you from making up stories and projecting them.. from the lowest common denominator you should be in keeping with the thread title!


But anyway. The actual point of my post was to use your own words against you in the hope that you would come to an understanding such language ('you are full of crap') really isn't all that pleasant when you are in the receiving end. I had hoped this would perhaps prevent you from using it in the future.
No, in fact your petty attempt and re-attempt only confirms the crap that is being peddled!-- and if nothing of substance then take some circuitous route that has nothing to do with the subject matter!
I guess that didn't quite work out imsad. Just goes to show that fighting fire with fire is a losing strategy!
I don't feel like a loser.. I'd refrain from dragging me to the experiences of your own psyche..

all the best
Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 04:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Is it me, or does anyone else find it ironic how you posted astoundingly beautiful churches and then claim they were eyesores? You may be angry at the story, as am I, but this is not a Christian move and you don't need to post some amazingly beautiful churches in Egypt and complain about them to get your point across!
Also, I wouldn't call Egypt a 'Muslim' country, if only because so **** many of its people aren't actually Muslim. A 'Muslim majority' country would be a better phrase.

Also, to the poster before me, Indonesia is a very liberal country when it comes to religion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is silly.

I am not angry with anything.. I think the Egyptian 'majority' nationals and expats in keeping with their Muslim identity should lead by the swiss example and remove little bits of the churches here and there.. do we want the symbols of the crusade in 'Muslim majority lands'?

Do you find it absurd or are you a hypocrite?
Further this was meant a direct reply to the other fellow who seems to think that Christians of Egypt have it bad.. if you have never been then put up or shut up..
the reality paints a different picture from the sentiments you'd like to echo..

oh wo wu woe..
Reply

Masuma
11-30-2009, 05:06 PM
There has never been a Freedom of Speech when it concerned the Muslims!

Bans on Hijab in France is an eyeopener for those Muslims who still think that West is all about freedom!

It does give Freedom to others but when it comes to Muslims, it becomes "a threat to their culture and secularism blah-crap-blah"!:hmm:

Don't they see the Christian nuns wearing a similar dress like Muslim ladies? Are are the people too blind to notice the Sikhs who are clearly representatives of their culture all the time?


As one brother pointed out before that this is only the beginning. Wait for the end people!

Do you know what "End" will be marked with? It will be marked with the demolishing of Masjid-e-Aqsa!:cry:


Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 05:16 PM
actually masjid al-aqsa will be 3amir insha'Allah.. the demolishing only marks the zenith of wickedness and its rise to power, but it will resolve with victory to Islam insha'Allah..
Reply

KAding
11-30-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Do you know what "End" will be marked with? It will be marked with the demolishing of Masjid-e-Aqsa!:cry:
A ban on minarets in Switzerland will not 'end' with the destruction of the Al-Aqsa mosque, just like the banning churches in Saudi Arabia will not lead to the destruction of the St. Peters Church in Rome. :heated:
Reply

Supreme
11-30-2009, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I am not angry with anything.. I think the Egyptian 'majority' nationals and expats in keeping with their Muslim identity should lead by the swiss example and remove little bits of the churches here and there.. do we want the symbols of the crusade in 'Muslim majority lands'?

Do you find it absurd or are you a hypocrite?
Further this was meant a direct reply to the other fellow who seems to think that Christians of Egypt have it bad.. if you have never been then put up or shut up..
the reality paints a different picture from the sentiments you'd like to echo..

oh wo wu woe..

The crusades? What, you mean the Catholic crusaders that ended up killing thousands of Eastern Orthodox Christians who has just as much right to the land as their Muslim friends? The Copts are Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, therefore their churches are not symbols of the crusades... the exact opposite in fact. Also, seeing as there ar far more Egyptian Christians than Swiss Muslims, the Egyptian authorities would find implementing such measures very hard. And no, I don't agree with the Swiss ban on minarets in any way, it is a massive blow for liberals such as myself.

I fully agree that Christians in Egypt do not have it bad, they are in high government places and recieve equally as good education as Muslims in Egypt, as well as very good jobs. And I plan to go to Egypt next year, out of interest, what is the name of the first stunning church you posted? It is a fine example of holy architecture, and I would oh so love to go and worship there.
Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
The crusades? What, you mean the Catholic crusaders that ended up killing thousands of Eastern Orthodox Christians who has just as much right to the land as their Muslim friends? The Copts are Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, therefore their churches are not symbols of the crusades... the exact opposite in fact. Also, seeing as there ar far more Egyptian Christians than Swiss Muslims, the Egyptian authorities would find implementing such measures very hard. And no, I don't agree with the Swiss ban on minarets in any way, it is a massive blow for liberals such as myself.
Crusades as in the continuous military expeditions in the 11th to 13th centuries when Christian powers of Europe tried to recapture the Holy Land from the Muslims, surely it isn't difficult for you to open a real history book and read some history?.. It really wouldn't be that difficult to echo western hypocrisy in Egypt, govt. or not by sheer power of the people who are far divorced from the govt. .. however it wouldn't be Islamic to demolish other people's house of worship.. Therein lies the difference and there is where it always lay.
tolerance and freedom are Islamic virtues, they never have and never will be a western value.. and it doesn't matter what veil of neutrality or democracy the west hides behind, in truth, they have always been anything but, they are racists and fascists!

I fully agree that Christians in Egypt do not have it bad, they are in high government places and recieve equally as good education as Muslims in Egypt, as well as very good jobs. And I plan to go to Egypt next year, out of interest, what is the name of the first stunning church you posted? It is a fine example of holy architecture, and I would oh so love to go and worship there.
That church is the biggest in aswan.. you can learn more about it here

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel...out/index.html
Reply

Supreme
11-30-2009, 05:40 PM
Crusades as in the continuous military expeditions in the 11th to 13th centuries when Christian powers of Europe tried to recapture the Holy Land from the Muslims, surely it isn't difficult for you to open a real history book and read some history?.. It really wouldn't be that difficult to echo western hypocrisy in Egypt, govt. or not by sheer power of the people who are far divorced from the govt. .. however it wouldn't be Islamic to demolish other people's house of worship.. Therein lies the difference and there is where it always lay.
What? You've just blindly ignored the fact I plainly stated that Eastern Orthodox Christians perished at the hands of the Catholic crusaders? Any 'real' history book will tell you the murders, desecrations and rapes tha took place in Constantinople against the Christians there by the Crusaders. Also, as far as i understand, the Swiis want to ban minarets. They don't want to demolish anything.

tolerance and freedom are Islamic virtues, they never have and never will be a western value.. and it doesn't matter what veil of neutrality or democracy the west hides behind, in truth, they have always been anything but, they are racists and fascists!
Is this even worth responding too? That's like observing the sky to be blue yet claiming it to be green.

That church is the biggest in aswan.. you can learn more about it here

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel...out/index.html
Thank you Gosamer, I shall wiki it. From what I've researched, Egypt is the greatest place on Earth- baking hot with sunshine throughout the year, lovely beaches with warm crystal waters, ancient ruins with intriguing ancient history, beautiful holy places for Christians and Muslims and beautiful desert landscape. Unbeatable. It was a choicew between Egypt and Greece, and truthfully, Greece appears rather amateur.
Reply

Masuma
11-30-2009, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
A ban on minarets in Switzerland will not 'end' with the destruction of the Al-Aqsa mosque, just like the banning churches in Saudi Arabia will not lead to the destruction of the St. Peters Church in Rome. :heated:
Ahan!:heated: U didn't understand properly what I said!

I didn't say that Masjid-e-Aqsa will be demolished tomorrow or some days after it! Masjid-e-Aqsa will be demolished :cry: though it may be after many, many years or maybe not that much late-who knows the exact time!

What i said was that the process has begun years ago and slowly slowly it will reach its climax when all the other nations will unite against us!

These smaller bans on Muslim's identity is just a very small part of their anti-Islamic propaganda.
Reply

جوري
11-30-2009, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
What? You've just blindly ignored the fact I plainly stated that Eastern Orthodox Christians perished at the hands of the Catholic crusaders? Any 'real' history book will tell you the murders, desecrations and rapes tha took place in Constantinople against the Christians there by the Crusaders. Also, as far as i understand, the Swiis want to ban minarets. They don't want to demolish anything.
The purpose of the crusade is really all that matters.. it is like saying the holocaust was about ridding Germany of its gypsies.. casualties of war aren't the focus of it..
a minaret symbolizes the call to prayer.. what does banning it mean in your book or theirs? Your honesty here has to come into question.

Is this even worth responding too? That's like observing the sky to be blue yet claiming it to be green.
Perhaps the problem is that you suffer from color blindness? .. the sky appears to be blue as perceived by the human eye.. but that doesn't mean, that blue is its color!

Thank you Gosamer, I shall wiki it. From what I've researched, Egypt is the greatest place on Earth- baking hot with sunshine throughout the year, lovely beaches with warm crystal waters, ancient ruins with intriguing ancient history, beautiful holy places for Christians and Muslims and beautiful desert landscape. Unbeatable. It was a choicew between Egypt and Greece, and truthfully, Greece appears rather amateur.
Indeed, Mesopotamia, and its neighbors are the birth place of civilization, it makes sense that all Abrahamic religions are from there!

all the best
Reply

Uthman
11-30-2009, 06:30 PM
Minaret result seen as "turning point"

Minaret ban marks start of tough Swiss debate on Islam

Vatican and Muslims condemn Swiss minaret ban vote

Swiss minaret ban may irk some Muslim bank clients
Reply

Uthman
11-30-2009, 07:09 PM
Swiss ban on minarets draws widespread condemnation

Switzerland: Hatred beneath the harmony

Swiss vote to ban construction of minarets on mosques
Reply

Uthman
11-30-2009, 07:10 PM
Excellent article by Sheikh Yasir Qadhi: The Case of the Swiss Minarets

Read it!
Reply

Amadeus85
11-30-2009, 08:52 PM
[QUOTE=naidamar;1253386]You are talking out of your backside again.


Did you know that the holidays of all major religions are recognised as state holidays in Indonesia?. Yes, and that includes christmas, good friday, easter, the days of prophet Jesus pbuh resurrection and ascencion, Waisya' (the birthday of Buddha), Nyepi and galungan and Kuningan (Balinese Hindu holidays).
This I knew, I have some knowledge about South East Asia, I also have good friends from there.
These are good examples of tolerance, no one should deny.

Try to compare that with Western countries who are constantly boasting about their secularism and liberalism and freedom of this and that and yet recognise only christian holidays as state holidays, refusing to acknowledge other religious holidays, and as the latest case shows, refusing the rights of followers of other religion to build such minor religious thing such as minarets.
I'm afraid that You overreact, the "western" tolerance is sometimes pushed to silliness (remember how London mayor persuaded the citizens to fast during Ramadan?).

Did you know that there is a huge cathedral next to the Istiqlal mosque and a big protestant and anglican churches nearby? did you know that there are hundreds of thousands of churches and temples all over Indonesia?
These are good examples of tolerance.

Did you know that christians have been aggressively building churces in areas where there are extremely few christians, thus causing frictions with local residents?
I'm aware, but don't sometimes muslims in Europe, USA and Australia do the same. Wasn't the latest conflict about islamic school in Australia about this? Muslims wanted to build islamic centre in a area with... 50 muslims.

Did you know that christian missionaries have been using aggressive and deplorable tactics (bribing kids, spreading lies, etc) for years in areas where there are no christian in defiance to government rule, thus causing frictions with the local residents and governments?
You mean evangelicals? Protestans? They do the same to convert catholics in South America. Nothing new.

Despite Indonesia being the largest muslim country in the world, Indonesia do not implement sharia law (which I think we should by the way). And even under sharia law, people of different religions would still enjoy their rights to practice their religions anyway.
Good, I think that the future of Indonesia belongs to its citizens and no one else. You will decide what You think it's best.
Of course in my opinion whole Europe should back to Medival-type Christianitas state.
Reply

mahi
11-30-2009, 09:49 PM
Lets all have a religion debate
You're better than me, I better than you

Seriously, the amount of posts I've read of Christians and Aithiests here saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it... Swiss culture or whatever.
It's not that hard to see you're glad that the ban has been put into place, even though no ones going to admit it, it's quite obvious. Same way that if Christians had a pillar, though not churches that was banned, many muslims would no doubt be happy. But its sad to say something and argue something else.

I can't see how anyone would fail to see this is as discriminatory against the muslims, it's not a ban on tall pillars, it's a ban on minarets.

format_quote Originally Posted by ThomasRudin
Hi there

I'm Thomas from Switzerland.

I really can't believe what happened today. It's unbelievable.

Actually me and all my friends (who are against this stupid initative) where pretty sure it would have no success. It's so unreal right now. I'm really ashamed to be a swiss citizen.

It's so rediculous. Well I think the initiative is in some way illegal. It started to forbid minarets without any thought behind that (which is obviously ridicilous as well), that's why the federal assembly was not able to forbid the initiative.

In the mean time, SVP thought it would be a good idea to push all this in a way higher level..scare people with those "scary" posters and saying that it's not about the minaret, it's about switzerlands religion changing to islam.
I really did not hear ANY argument FOR the initiativ which is reasonable..

This hole thing is such a joke.. That's why I post here, to see what you think about the hole thing.

What do you think are there for consequences?

You can ask me any questions if you want.

Best Regards
Thomas
A mix of consequences, some good that it's shown to many the discrimination against muslims, as this received decent publicity. You have stuff like the hijab ban in France, and the list of rubbish is becoming too big.

And also that it brings out those who work on basic principles, who can see when things are clearly wrong even when that comes at the cost of seeing something they belong to as being wrong. No doubt many Swiss people are glad, but when you have non muslims like your self (assumingly) speaking out against things like these and doing things like protests, then its good times for everyone.
Reply

KAding
11-30-2009, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahi
Seriously, the amount of posts I've read of Christians and Aithiests here saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it...
Huh, I haven't seen a single Christian or Atheist "saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it". In fact, the only one who seems to agree with the principle is Amadeus.
Reply

Ramadhan
12-01-2009, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It is up to the Swiss to decide what belongs to their cultural heritage. I'm sure they don't all agree! According to the campaigners, the heritage is "Christian values and democracy".
And what constitutes "christian values and democracy"?
You are only replacing a very vague term with another.

You know, my point as I have stated in my previous post is that the swiss have shown their true colors.
And you are replying with "the swiss only want to protect their cultural heritage".
Which is a lot of bs if you ask me.

The swiss true color is that they are intolerant, illiberal, islamophobe, xenophobe, and paranoid.

Ok, I'll take out the "xenophobe" as they actually do not always hate anything foreign, because they are greedily, knowingly, willingly take deposits of foreign (stolen) money which are tainted with blood of hundreds of millions people. A practice which I guess fits perfectly with christianity values and democracy.

If you ask me they cannot. But clearly this is all about symbolism. Those 60% are actually saying 'we don't like Islamization of our country'.
Now you are getting to your senses. They are indeed bunch of Islamophobes.

But to be quite frank, I don't quite understand how you as a Muslim can have such trouble grasping the sentiment that is at the root of this vote? Surely Islam teaches to dislike or even prohibit that which can lead to sin, which includes anything that can lead Muslims astray? To remove things that may "tempt or confuse the people"?
You should come forth with specific Islamic jurispridence and fiqh instead of
So what are they?

Surely it is exactly that sentiment that explains rulings such as:
- Rulings against non-Muslim proselytizing
Islam allows da'wah and balagh, which mean invitation and propagation. Prophet Muhammad SAW once received a christian guest in his mosque, giving the chance to talk about his faith.

However, proselytizing is different. There are some restrictions for non-muslim proselytizing in some Islamic countries. And do you know why it happened?
Teach yourself some world history and facts (both current and past) about exploitation tactics used specifically by christians in their proselytizing efforts.

- Rulings against Muslims converting to another religion
This ruling applies to muslims, so what does that have to do with non-muslims?

- Rulings against non-Muslims marrying Muslims
This ruling applies to muslims, so what does that have to do with non-muslims?
And anyway, muslim men are allowed to marry ahlul kitaab.

- Rulings against building churches in 'Muslim lands'
Come forward with examples and I will give you millions of counter examples of churches built in 'Muslim lands'.

- Rulings against giving Zakaat to non-Muslims
This is the Al Qur'an verse to whom we give zakat to:

“As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa’ (poor), and Al‑Masaakeen (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allaah’s Cause (i.e. for Mujaahidoon — those fighting in a holy battle), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allaah. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[QS. Tawbah 9:60]

There is no mention that it must not be given to non-muslims. And even if it did, how does that concern the rights of non-muslim?

- Rulings on destroying idols
This is where you are right. Central to islamic faith is acknowledgement that there is only One God and to associate Him with anything else is the biggest sin a man can ever commit. Sadly, most majority muslim countries (such as Indonesia, Malaysia etc) do not abide by this ruling and instead let those idols in public places everywhere being worshipped.

It is exactly what this Swiss vote seems to have in mind. Namely restricting religious freedom in the name of 'protecting' ones own traditional values. As a liberal I cannot approve of it myself.
This is different than "The swiss people only want to protect their cultural heritage".

So you disapprove but you defend them?

LOL.

No. Because Eastern religions are not considered a threat by virtually anyone, which (unfortunately) is not true for Islam. Islam is also thought to be political, which makes it a more likely target. To put it in Islamic terms, Islam is considered kufr.
so now you essentially agree with me that the swiss people are Islamophobes.

Now lets hope that the Swiss constitutions, which is thankfully based on more liberal principles, prevents this vote from leading to actual laws that outlaw minarets.
In any case, this will only energize the muslims in Swiss to be active and aware of their rights and I hope they will build many more mosques with really tall minarets :)
This high profile case will also attract people attention and make many want to study Islam further.
Reply

The_Prince
12-01-2009, 04:21 AM
switzerland is no longer a secular country, this ruling contradicts the secular law as they are now specifically targetting one religion restricting its religous right of building a mosque according to their religous heritage, maybe you can call switzerland a secular dictatorship, but not a free secular country.

the bigger irony to this is that this proves that these racist Europeans will target Muslims no matter what, its not about extremism, or terrorism etc because last i checked there were hardly any Muslims threatning to attack switzerland, nor have i seen any Muslims attacking switzerland and forcing the swiss people to follow and conform to Islam or the dreadedddddddd sharia law. the swiss people have declared war on Muslims by this, they were the first to strike, without a single bit of provocation.

and after all of this you still get dumb Europeans who wonder why extremism goes on the rise and why you get angry Muslims.
Reply

Ramadhan
12-01-2009, 08:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Huh, I haven't seen a single Christian or Atheist "saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it". In fact, the only one who seems to agree with the principle is Amadeus.
Have you seen any mirror lately?

First you said this:
As a liberal I cannot approve of it myself.
which means you don't agree with the ban.
Then you said this:
It is up to the Swiss to decide what belongs to their cultural heritage
which means you defend the swiss people for making the despicable decision.
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 12:09 PM
First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

I want to know the opinion about the subject of islamists, here in Spain almost everybody is against about the ban of the minaretts, but here is what I think and I want to know what do you think about it:

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.
2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ
Reply

afzalaung
12-01-2009, 04:27 PM
:sl:

I just received a mail from a friend, campaigning to boycott swiss product. ( I cant really imagine much swiss products where i live, except maybe chocolates and watches)
anyway, here's the mail.
We must stand united to send a message strong enough.

__________________________

YOU all heard what that magazine in Denmark has published. It's making fun of our beloved PROPHET MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H)

Moreover they refused to apologize because they considered it a practice of freedom and democracy. I ask you all to put your hands with other MUSLIMS and boycott the Denmark's products. 1.6 billion Muslim could really slap the economy in Denmark.

Netherland on the other hand has protected and endorsed the film makers, 'artists' and politicians such as Van Geert and Ali Hirsi that need no further mention or support. Again under their wonderful guise of 'freedom of speech'.

Germany is formulating ways to subjugate Muslims to abandon belief in Shari'ah, muslim culture, etc… if arriving to live in Germany you will be forced to sign certain contracts and perform certain tests that qualify you as a person who would adopt the German Culture and abandon your ideas. The questions even are ever so close ended to specifically target typical Muslim's views and beliefs on foreign policy, hijab, gender issues, shari'ah, etc… For sake of argument they may argue logically that coming to 'their lands' we must obide by 'their laws' and follow 'their culture' however past this simpleton logic is an overshadowed obvious agenda targetting Islam and Muslims in Europe which are on a rapid increase both in immigration as well as conversion. Germany has one of the fastest native conversion rates to Islam. Just youtube German converts to islam to get an idea. All this again in the name of 'making us all equal' while in fact subjugating Muslims to abandon Islam.

France has banned the hijab in the name of 'equality' as well in order to oppress and suppress the muslim women. Denying them education if they are to practice their religion.

Now Switzerland has banned minarets as another step to specifically target the spread of Islam and Muslims in Europe. The picture for the ban speaks volumes on it's own. They've openly stated this is about stopping 'islamization' of Europe. Funny how 'democracy' works, what if all the people want Islam? And more and more people are embracing Islam, they fear that growht of Islam and Muslims in the world. Another battle against Islam and Muslims.

One way we can fight politically and peacefully their 'peaceful' silent but yet effectively suppressive fight against Muslims is boycotting their products and foiling their economy. Every bar Coded product in the market containing its' country code included in barcode digits. Please check the barcode of any product before you buy.

Check the first 3 digits from the LEFT.

Example, an Israeli product will have barcode like:
729 3453459070

729 Israel
760 - 769 Switzerland
570 - 579 Denmark (i.e. 570, 571... 579)
870 - 879 Netherlands (i.e. 870,871... 879)
300 - 379 France
700 - 709 Norway
400 - 440 German


[8:36] Those who disbelieve spend their money to repel others from the way of GOD. They will spend it, then it will turn into sorrow and remorse for them. Ultimately, they will be defeated, and all disbelievers will be summoned to Hell.
________________________

Jazakallahu khair.
Reply

Uthman
12-01-2009, 06:02 PM
Europe's press says Swiss ban sends wrong signal

Middle East press sees double standards in Swiss ban

The Swiss ban makes me shudder

Minaret ban 'a security risk' - Swiss minister
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-01-2009, 09:40 PM
:sl:

In my opinion, we cannot expect a country which is not a Muslim country to be run in ways which are completely to our liking. A minaret is not central to being a Muslim or for following or spreading Islam. However, if we look at where this might be leading to, then may be seen as being slightly worrying.
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

In my opinion, we cannot expect a country which is not a Muslim country to be run in ways which are completely to our liking. A minaret is not central to being a Muslim or for following or spreading Islam. However, if we look at where this might be leading to, then may be seen as being slightly worrying.
Thats a very reasonable answer, what do you think about constructing other religion buildings in muslim countries?
Reply

aamirsaab
12-01-2009, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

I want to know the opinion about the subject of islamists, here in Spain almost everybody is against about the ban of the minaretts, but here is what I think and I want to know what do you think about it:

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.
2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ
1) That's fine - I have no problem with it (although it does highlight the major flaw in democracy but I shall not go into it at this moment)

2) Technically speaking, you aren't allowed to build a church in an islamic state. However, since there are no islamic states, this is rendered completely moot (in practice anyhow). Also the point is completely irrelevant to the topic you raised. But oh well.

3) So that's reason to ban the minaret? I detect a disturbance in the force: troll logic is being used in this thread.

4) What about it? That's pretty much the most logical reason on the planet. XYZ religion says not to promote falsehood, so therefore it wouldn't allow falsehood. It's really quite simple and not at all difficult to understand.
Reply

Fishman
12-01-2009, 10:18 PM
1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.
Just because people vote for something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't evil. Hitler was elected at least partially democratically, and everybody knows that national borders do not define morals.

2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
Churches and Cathedrals should be allowed 100% in Muslim countries, unless they are built by dodgy missionary organisations. Honest Christians are welcome everywhere on God's Earth.

3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
Just because Muslims don't need minarets doesn't mean that they can be banned from having them for no good reason.
Black people didn't need to eat in posh resturants or sit on any bus seat they wanted either, but that doesn't make apartheid okay.

4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ
People like this are completely intolerant, and their attitude helps to shake my faith in Islam to the core. Luckily for people here there are Muslims who do not hold this attitude that can try to steady my faith.
Reply

mahi
12-01-2009, 10:24 PM
It's not a massive issue, but the problem is that its specifically against minarets, which is clear discrimination. It's not a ban against all tall towers or tall buildings, its minarets. Its specifically minarets in Islam. It may be seen the same as banning black people from building towers they call x. It's not all towers, it's just the ones the black people build.

Of course if a ban on minarets for whatever reason is the wish of the majority of Swiss people, that's fine, that's up to them. Hopefully allowing respecting their wishes will allow better relations
Reply

Predator
12-01-2009, 10:29 PM
Looks like the same story as the banning of burkahs in France . Some people act as though they are biggest champions of democracy , but in reality they're making a mockery of democracy
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 10:55 PM
I made the same sin as many people do, I thaught muslims=radicals, I thaught every muslim think that build non islamic buildings on their countries was wrong.
The main issue here is that Swiss people are afraid, I read that some people want to establish the "Sharia-law" in Switzerland for the muslims and the common one for the others, I suppouse this statement made by some radicals make people be afraid of you, the thing is that more muslims like you should go out and say "we do not all think like him! we are not radicals!"

About burkha, there is no chance I could agree with that, I think it should be banish from my country too, we all see it as it is, a manner of degradate the women. :(

The thing is that in the news, here in Europe the radicals are the people that make noise, the ones that do not want to adapt to the country but the country adapt to them what is a clearly mistake, for example, here a muslim women want to testify in front of a jury with the burkha on, the judge said that with that on he cant see if she was lying or not, so she had to take it off.

The whole point is that we all think you all are radicals who want to impose your religion and costums everywhere you go.

Sorry about my english
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 10:58 PM
And yeah, about the thing that in muslims countries dont let people build their own churches doesnt let us the right to dont let you, but anyways I think you should be grateful and dont make a big cause about minaretts.
Reply

Muezzin
12-01-2009, 10:59 PM
Minarets? Well, as long as there's somewhere to pray, it's fine as a practical matter. In principle, it's unfair, but then, the mosque of Prophet (SAW) was ridiculously simple compared to those of today. The point of a mosque is to give the Muslim community somewhere to pray as opposed to making an architectural statement, no matter how beautiful the architecture is.

What is worrying is that this vote seems to be symptomatic of a blind fear of Islam among many Europeans.

format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
The thing is that in the news, here in Europe the radicals are the people that make noise, the ones that do not want to adapt to the country but the country adapt to them what is a clearly mistake, for example, here a muslim women want to testify in front of a jury with the burkha on, the judge said that with that on he cant see if she was lying or not, so she had to take it off.
I seem to recall reading that, Islamically, in a court room, the veil is allowed to be removed.

However, I can't remember where I read this, its reliability etc, so perhaps another member can help me out here.
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
Just because people vote for something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't evil. Hitler was elected at least partially democratically, and everybody knows that national borders do not define morals.
Democracy is not perfect, so what do you suggest? Hitler dictatorship wasnt democracy, maybe he was elected, but we wouldnt be many more time if people voted while he was in power, (after they see what he was doing....)
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I seem to recall reading that, Islamically, in a court room, the veil is allowed to be removed.

However, I can't remember where I read this, its reliability etc, so perhaps another member can help me out here.
She removed it but asked for the cameras to go out the court.
Reply

GuestFellow
12-01-2009, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.
Its fine.

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be
respected.
I will never respect this decisions. I will tolerate it.

2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
Christians should be allowed to build Churches so that they can pray with fear of being persecuted.

3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
Okay.

4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ
??
Reply

Muezzin
12-01-2009, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
She removed it but asked for the cameras to go out the court.
If the judge was okay with that, I see no problem.

My personal opinion about behaviour in courts generally is that all those present should listen to the judge.

EDIT: Also, this topic really belongs in the World Affairs section, so I'm moving it there. :)
Reply

GuestFellow
12-01-2009, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
And yeah, about the thing that in muslims countries dont let people build their own churches doesnt let us the right to dont let you, but anyways I think you should be grateful and dont make a big cause about minaretts.
I am grateful. Question to you, why should the Muslims in Switzerland be punished for what other Muslims are doing to Christians in Islamic countries?

Who is really creating the fuss? There were only 4 Minerats.
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
??
Well, maybe that video wasnt in the right place to post... its just I hate radicalisms in everyway and every religion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
If the judge was okay with that, I see no problem.
My personal opinion about behaviour in courts generally is that all those present should listen to the judge.
I dont remember very well but I think they made a big thing out of it because she did it too, arguing with the judge.
Anyway there is other case wich I remember better, very similar, she didnt want to remove her (not burkha but like a sheet on her head, I do not know the name) for the National Document of Spain, that way a police cant tell if she was the person of the document (you can tell by the ears a form of head) and she made a BIG thing of it, about her rights etc... the thing is that we think here that you want to impose your costums and that pisses us off.
Reply

Fishman
12-01-2009, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
Democracy is not perfect, so what do you suggest? Hitler dictatorship wasnt democracy, maybe he was elected, but we wouldnt be many more time if people voted while he was in power, (after they see what he was doing....)
People knew quite well what Hitler wanted before he was elected (discrimination against Jews, the conquest of the east, the formation of an Aryan master race etc), they just didn't know of the means he would use.

As you said, democracy is not perfect, since the voters themselves can make mistakes or be misled. There are few answers to this, but the Swiss can help themselves by not having such a direct democracy. Things like this wouldn't happen in most western countries (for example the UK) because we have representative democracy instead. Instead of any village idiot being allowed to just vote for what they want, the people elect a parliament of 'experts' with different agendas to make policies for them.
Reply

Muezzin
12-01-2009, 11:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
I dont remember very well but I think they made a big thing out of it because she did it too, arguing with the judge.
If you're rembering correctly, and the court cameras allow the public at large to watch proceedings, like in the USA, then I can see why she would argue.

However, what the judge says must be followed.

Anyway there is other case wich I remember better, very similar, she didnt want to remove her (not burkha but like a sheet on her head, I do not know the name) for the National Document of Spain, that way a police cant tell if she was the person of the document (you can tell by the ears a form of head) and she made a BIG thing of it, about her rights etc... the thing is that we think here that you want to impose your costums and that pisses us off.
Again I don't have a citation for this, but I'm certain that for identification purposes, the veil is allowed to be removed.

EDIT: Oh, you mean the headscarf? I don't see why she would have to remove that. Her face would be visible, and can be compared to her photo etc.
Reply

Uthman
12-01-2009, 11:28 PM
Hi el_nota,
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
About burkha, there is no chance I could agree with that, I think it should be banish from my country too, we all see it as it is, a manner of degradate the women. :(
Any chance you could check out this thread?
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I am grateful. Question to you, why should the Muslims in Switzerland be punished for what other Muslims are doing to Christians in Islamic countries?

Who is really creating the fuss? There were only 4 Minerats.
Thats right, we shouldnt, but cant you see our point of view? dont you think that the minority of islamic-radical living in Switzerland could make people get fear and because so try to control islamic?
I think there should be more people like you talking in public so the muslims doesnt get that poor image that we have about you.

Anyway I do still think that if it was democratic elected it should be respected.

What do you people would think if instead of Minaretts burkhas would be banished? Just asking

(Offtopic: seriously very interesting having a discussion with you, I like to know the way of thinking of you)
Reply

el_nota
12-01-2009, 11:39 PM
I'll check the links you posted, but tomorrow, here is too late and I have to work, I'll answer tomorrow too.
¡Salud!
Reply

MuslimAgorist
12-02-2009, 02:47 AM
"If you make these laws to target Muslims today, you don't know who it's going to be used against tomorrow."
~Sheikh Alauddin El-Bakri - CAIR SV 7th Annual Banquet

On November 29th a referendum banning new minarets passed with 57% of the vote. The campaign included fear mongering posters, repeated vandalism to Geneva's largest mosque, and a vehicle with a loudspeaker mocking the call the prayer.

Amnesty International and others want to make this about freedom of religion. That’s a red herring in my opinion. This is about property rights. A person has the natural right to build any structure they wish on their own private property. Those who want to utilize the coercive power of the State against Muslims must take heed that the legal precedents they set can and will be used against others in the future. Probably themselves. The Swiss people, in their bigotry, have weakened their own right to private property.

Read more
Reply

titus
12-02-2009, 05:17 AM
Anyway I do still think that if it was democratic elected it should be respected.
If by respected you mean that the law should be followed then yes, I agree with you there. If by respected you mean that we should have not problem with it, then I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

This law is based on nothing more than fear and serves no purpose whatsoever, except to maybe piss off Muslims living in Switzerland. It most certainly is not going to make any Muslims say "You know what? I was going to become all radical and suicide bomb Zurich, but since they banned minarets I have changed my mind."

Since the country as a whole voted in favor of this all I can do is think that the majority of Swiss citizens are simple minded and intolerant.
Reply

KAding
12-02-2009, 10:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

In my opinion, we cannot expect a country which is not a Muslim country to be run in ways which are completely to our liking. A minaret is not central to being a Muslim or for following or spreading Islam. However, if we look at where this might be leading to, then may be seen as being slightly worrying.
Yes, I absolutely agree. This is a very slippery slope. Once you allow laws to target one specific religious group, you are certainly opening the door for more serious and targeted infringements on religious freedoms.
Reply

KAding
12-02-2009, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
2) Technically speaking, you aren't allowed to build a church in an islamic state. However, since there are no islamic states, this is rendered completely moot (in practice anyhow). Also the point is completely irrelevant to the topic you raised. But oh well.
It certainly is not 'completely irrelevant to the topic'.

This whole discussion is about emotions and feelings, it is inherently linked to the perception of people about what Islam does and does not stand for. It has to do with fears associated with that.

As such it has a lot to do with the reciprocity as well. People are generally wary of granting things they believe the other would not grant to them if the roles were reversed, In fact, the very reason why Islam is sometimes viewed as a bigger threat than, say, Buddhism is exactly because it is thought to disallow such religious freedoms to others if it were 'in power'.
Reply

KAding
12-02-2009, 10:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

I want to know the opinion about the subject of islamists, here in Spain almost everybody is against about the ban of the minaretts, but here is what I think and I want to know what do you think about it:

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.
Accepted, perhaps. Respected, no. It's not because the majority in Switzerland believes this is a good idea that it is also the right thing to do.

2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
I do not believe it is the right of the state or the majority to determine how a certain religious group practices its religion, as long as it does not harm anyone of course.
Reply

KAding
12-02-2009, 11:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
Churches and Cathedrals should be allowed 100% in Muslim countries, unless they are built by dodgy missionary organisations. Honest Christians are welcome everywhere on God's Earth.
In fairness, I hardly think even that should matter. A lot of mosques in the West are built using Saudi money and with the help of Saudi organizations. Does that mean we should not allow these mosques to be built?
Reply

Amadeus85
12-02-2009, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
Democracy is not perfect, so what do you suggest? Hitler dictatorship wasnt democracy, maybe he was elected, but we wouldnt be many more time if people voted while he was in power, (after they see what he was doing....)
You are a Spaniard? Read about Donoso Cortes, Ramiro de Maeztu, Jaime Balmes. They were writing about system 100% better than liberal democracy. Regards.
Reply

GuestFellow
12-02-2009, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by el_nota
Thats right, we shouldnt, but cant you see our point of view? dont you think that the minority of islamic-radical living in Switzerland could make people get fear and because so try to control islamic?
Through minerats? Minerats don't do anything. I'm not really bothered by the ban, but I have failed to see a logical argument for banning them in the first place.

Probably some Muslims may be creating problems but not through minerats. You can ban minerats but it is not really going to solve anything.

I think there should be more people like you talking in public so the muslims doesnt get that poor image that we have about you.
There are Muslims who try to give set a example for other Muslims, the media tends to focus on more controversial matters to gain more publicity.

Anyway I do still think that if it was democratic elected it should be respected.
There is a difference between respect and tolerance. People may not agree with others but we can tolerate different views.

What do you people would think if instead of Minaretts burkhas would be banished? Just asking
Not sure. I rather avoid thinking what they might ban next.

(Offtopic: seriously very interesting having a discussion with you, I like to know the way of thinking of you)
Take care.
Reply

aamirsaab
12-02-2009, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It certainly is not 'completely irrelevant to the topic'.

This whole discussion is about emotions and feelings, it is inherently linked to the perception of people about what Islam does and does not stand for. It has to do with fears associated with that.

As such it has a lot to do with the reciprocity as well. People are generally wary of granting things they believe the other would not grant to them if the roles were reversed, In fact, the very reason why Islam is sometimes viewed as a bigger threat than, say, Buddhism is exactly because it is thought to disallow such religious freedoms to others if it were 'in power'.
Topic title is called minarets in switzerland. Nothing to do with churches in islamic countries.

Though, I admit I was hasty with my force-hunch about this dude.
Reply

titus
12-02-2009, 04:21 PM
You are a Spaniard? Read about Donoso Cortes, Ramiro de Maeztu, Jaime Balmes. They were writing about system 100% better than liberal democracy. Regards.
A Catholic monarchy? No thank you.
Reply

AbdullahSyed
12-02-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman

Churches and Cathedrals should be allowed 100% in Muslim countries, unless they are built by dodgy missionary organisations. Honest Christians are welcome everywhere on God's Earth.


People like this are completely intolerant, and their attitude helps to shake my faith in Islam to the core. Luckily for people here there are Muslims who do not hold this attitude that can try to steady my faith.
Which Islam are you following? Islamic rulings are quite clear about building non muslim places of worship in Islamic countries.

helps to shake my faith in Islam to the core.
Yes, I agree your faith in Islam is quite shakey.
Reply

alcurad
12-02-2009, 04:42 PM
^evidence please? I don't recall anything in the Qur'an or sunnah forbidding non Muslims of building places of worship for themselves?

p.s bro Fishman, faith is not a constant value, but youtube is not a good place for confirming or denying it right :/?
Reply

Supreme
12-02-2009, 04:55 PM
Which Islam are you following? Islamic rulings are quite clear about building non muslim places of worship in Islamic countries.
Really? Can anyone confirm this?
Reply

Fishman
12-02-2009, 07:51 PM
Which Islam are you following? Islamic rulings are quite clear about building non muslim places of worship in Islamic countries.
If it was so clear, then why this:

^evidence please? I don't recall anything in the Qur'an or sunnah forbidding non Muslims of building places of worship for themselves?
Which Islam are you following?
I don't really know myself, but it certainly isn't the Islam that you are proposing.

Yes, I agree your faith in Islam is quite shakey.
Shouldn't you be trying to reassure me that Islam is a good religion, rather than using my own spiritual turmoil as some kind of insult? I know my faith is very shakey. The real question is; what should be done about that?

p.s bro Fishman, faith is not a constant value, but youtube is not a good place for confirming or denying it right :/?
No, it isn't, and I firmly believe that Youtube is one of the most terrible sources one can use for anything. But that doesn't stop things I find from affecting me emotionally.
Reply

mahi
12-02-2009, 11:55 PM
^ to above
Don't really want to give you any written advice as it'd come out stupidly anyway, so I'll say one thing, read stories of the sacrifices of people like the prophet, or people like Saladin. Or read Qu'ran, and listen to some nice nasheeds as they're quite nice too at: http://www.salamtrain.com/
Reply

Qingu
12-03-2009, 03:56 AM
My thoughts:

• The ban is ridiculous, contrary to enlightenment ideals, and the Swiss should be ashamed of themselves.

• The ban is a good example of why popular, direct democracy is a really, really stupid idea. (We've seen many other examples here in America).

• If you're a Muslim and you don't think non-Muslims should be allowed to build big places of worship in your ideal country, you don't really get to complain about the ban in principle. (But if you are a Muslim who thinks Islam is somehow compatible with full religious tolerance, by all means, complain away!)
Reply

Chuck
12-03-2009, 09:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
But that doesn't stop things I find from affecting me emotionally.
Like what? If you don't mind giving more info?
Reply

Humble Muslim
12-03-2009, 01:27 PM
This ban shows that we badly need a serious dialogue between Muslims and Non-Muslims
Reply

aamirsaab
12-03-2009, 01:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
My thoughts:....
• If you're a Muslim and you don't think non-Muslims should be allowed to build big places of worship in your ideal country, you don't really get to complain about the ban in principle. (But if you are a Muslim who thinks Islam is somehow compatible with full religious tolerance, by all means, complain away!)
This was covered by Dr Zakir Naik in the youtube video, with his mathematician example. Although, a better and more understandable example would be that pork is haram for muslims to eat, thus by extention it is haram to sell it (or open a pork butcher shop) in an islamic state. Similarly, all other religions are not accepted by Allah, so an Islamic state cannot really allow them to propogate by allowing NEW places of worship to be built.

Remember; an Islamic state is a theocratic one and as such would not allow for propogation of other religions than Islam. It'd be like a Sony store selling an X-box. Or a Burger King selling a Big Mac.
Reply

titus
12-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Remember; an Islamic state is a theocratic one and as such would not allow for propogation of other religions than Islam. It'd be like a Sony store selling an X-box. Or a Burger King selling a Big Mac.
Another way of putting it would be "It's perfectly fine if we do it to other people, but it is wrong if they do it to us.".

I didn't realize tolerance was supposed to be a one way street.
Reply

KAding
12-03-2009, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Another way of putting it would be "It's perfectly fine if we do it to other people, but it is wrong if they do it to us.".

I didn't realize tolerance was supposed to be a one way street.
Yeah, it is very much Islamic ideas like that one that no doubt cause many Swiss to be in favor of such a symbolic ban on minarets. They don't vote against minarets because they disagree with them architecturally. They vote against because what they believe Islam stands for. The real question is whether those beliefs are based on a fair and accurate reading of Islam.
Reply

The_Prince
12-03-2009, 04:15 PM
if Muslims believe that Churches arent allowed in the Muslim world, or to be built, then those Muslims really have no place to be complaining about this, their just getting a taste of their own medicine. i mean its nothing more than sheer HYPOCRISY, you can sugar coat it as much as you like, but if your upset, and complaining about the fact that you cant build a minaret in the west, yet you have no problem and believe Christians cant even build churches in your country, then your a hypocrite, as simple as that, no two ways about it, your a hypocrite with some superiority complex as well.

the least would be to say sure Christians cant build their churches here, but if they do the same to us, i will not complain and suddenly act like a champion of human rights and religous freedom, i will accept it and move on. that would be much better rather than acting like a hypocrite.

some Muslims might try to make excuses saying oh well europe is SECULAR, that still doesnt make you any less of a hypocrite, infact it means europe, the KAFFIR is a better example than you because they at least allow you to have your mosque in europe, while you dont want to offer the same to them in the Muslim world! so this response doesnt help out at all, it only makes the none-Muslim look like a better example than you are.

and lets not hide behind this ohhhhh europe is a secular argument, secular or not secular, Muslims are just mad (and have the right to be mad, just like i am) because minarets are getting banned down, its not because ohhhhh this is against secular law, its because were mad our religous right is being taken away, as simple as that. and since when did Muslims care about whether secular law is violated or not?

and hey, switzerland is a democracy as well, so if they vote in the majority, then you have to accept it, dont matter if your feeling is hurt or whatever, they voted in majority according to their constitution, hence it is legitimate. just like the silly argument hey in Islamic state its purely Islam so it makes sense for no other places of worship, well then hey, switzerland is a democracy, and they can vote in majority, and majority wins, so thats that. and even more, the swiss if they decide, can say well you know what, we may be secular, but we dont want your Islam, your not allowed to have it here, and that would be that, their country, their way, their majority culture.
Reply

Supreme
12-03-2009, 04:24 PM
Although, a better and more understandable example would be that pork is haram for muslims to eat, thus by extention it is haram to sell it (or open a pork butcher shop) in an islamic state. Similarly, all other religions are not accepted by Allah, so an Islamic state cannot really allow them to propogate by allowing NEW places of worship to be built.
Or, to put better, 'we're scared of people converting frfom our religion when other places of worship are built, so we'll try and keep conversions to a minimal by preventing it'. From an outsider's point of view, it seems a pretty desperate law to have in place.
Reply

mahi
12-03-2009, 04:38 PM
How many Christians do you know that are converts from Islam?
Reply

GuestFellow
12-03-2009, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahi
How many Christians do you know that are converts from Islam?
Nonie Darwish, but who needs her? XD

She is a big liar.
Reply

Supreme
12-03-2009, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahi
How many Christians do you know that are converts from Islam?
One, and only vaguely. I think she keeps a low profile in my church. I know everybody, just not that well:statisfie
Reply

aamirsaab
12-03-2009, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Another way of putting it would be "It's perfectly fine if we do it to other people, but it is wrong if they do it to us.".

I didn't realize tolerance was supposed to be a one way street.
Comparing the rights of a democracy that has no religious stance vs a theistic state that has a religious stance is like comparing apples and oranges. This is exactly why I said: remember, an Islamic state is a theocracy...'' - that was a very huge clue!

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Yeah, it is very much Islamic ideas like that one that no doubt cause many Swiss to be in favor of such a symbolic ban on minarets. They don't vote against minarets because they disagree with them architecturally. They vote against because what they believe Islam stands for. The real question is whether those beliefs are based on a fair and accurate reading of Islam.
In a word, no. This whole thing is based on fear and persecution of muslims who are a minority in the west. Switzerland is not known for its abundance of muslims and to date, there is no islamic politcal party (certainly none being close to election!) in any of the western countries, so there really is no real power that muslims have.

Ironically, events like these may actually lead to a revolution in Islamic political parties. Eventually, clever muslims are going to be in very high positions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Or, to put better, 'we're scared of people converting frfom our religion when other places of worship are built, so we'll try and keep conversions to a minimal by preventing it'. From an outsider's point of view, it seems a pretty desperate law to have in place.
I guess you guys thing it would be ok if a muslim or a jew ran the vatican then? Or maybe you guys do go into Burger King and expect a Big Mac.
Reply

mahi
12-03-2009, 04:52 PM
And so many of the members on here are converts to Islam. But put that aside, comparing religions to make one look better than the other is stupid.

And anyone who says that the minaret ban is justifiable by saudi not allowing churches to be built is a fool.
Reply

aamirsaab
12-03-2009, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahi
And so many of the members on here are converts to Islam. But put that aside, comparing religions to make one look better than the other is stupid.

And anyone who says that the minaret ban is justifiable by saudi not allowing churches to be built is a fool.
FYI; that's not my justification.
Reply

mahi
12-03-2009, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
FYI; that's not my justification.
I know, I didn't even think that. It's true though, we should see how easy it is to build a large mosque in the centre of the Vatican. If it was easy, then they have my respect. I don't actually think we should, but just as a response to those going on about Saudi and churches. Though the Saudi thing is an interesting discussion and I get why some would use it here. Does anyone know how many Christians live in Arabia?

And in a revolution of Islamic parties, I agree, it could happen. Especially with getting the mass of youth in Islam involved as well. They're always so eager. But its hard for a muslim that's not a terrorist to get a voice in 'west', you know?
Reply

Supreme
12-03-2009, 06:03 PM
I guess you guys thing it would be ok if a muslim or a jew ran the vatican then? Or maybe you guys do go into Burger King and expect a Big Mac.
I personally couldn't give a monkeys who ran the Vatican, I'm a Protestant, not a Catholic. And when I go into Burger King, I expect a burger. I really don't mind what brand or company makes it.

Ironically, events like these may actually lead to a revolution in Islamic political parties. Eventually, clever muslims are going to be in very high positions
There are Muslims in Parliament already. If the Conservatives got in, Britain would have a Muslim female in Cabinet.

And anyone who says that the minaret ban is justifiable by saudi not allowing churches to be built is a fool.
I agree, because they are two different countries. Saudi Arabia is run by a bunch of Wahabis who discriminate against just about everyone and run a self proclaimed Islamic state, whereas Switzerland is a free democracy with a secular stance where freedom of religion is allowed.

Does anyone know how many Christians live in Arabia?
In Saudi Arabia, I believe estimates put it at hundreds of thousands, although in reality it could be far higher.

I know, I didn't even think that. It's true though, we should see how easy it is to build a large mosque in the centre of the Vatican
Seeing as the Vatican is incredibly small and most of it is taken up by St Peter's Basilica, building any large building would be rather hard, especially in its center...
Reply

Argamemnon
12-03-2009, 08:26 PM
As the Turkish minister said, just withdraw your money from Swiss and other western banks. If most Muslims did this, it would make a huge impact. But of course it won't happen.
Reply

جوري
12-03-2009, 08:44 PM
I fully and whole-heartedly agree with that.. I don't understand why those rich arabs have khinoo3 to these people and drag all with them.. they are so afraid that God forbid if they withdraw their large fortune which really belongs to the ummah not them as individuals that they'd have to account for it somehow.. so they'd rather die with their fortune in foreign banks which by the way they can freeze any time they please.. they can easily call someone a terrorist, freeze their accounts and seize their money when will they wake up?

I have done my part with Denmark insha'Allah, there were two products that we constantly bought from Denmark and we've boycotted them completely.. and I think if every person who uses some Denmark or swiss product made that switch we'll all be better for it.. let them enjoy their 'freedom' and what it brings them..

I hope the more industrial Islamic countries come forth though, like Malaysia, and Indonesia and fill in the gaps..

:wa:
Reply

Argamemnon
12-03-2009, 09:04 PM
Also, USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world. Americans are somehow brainwashed to believe that they are the most generous nation on earth while in reality it's the largest rogue state.
Reply

Argamemnon
12-03-2009, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I hope the more industrial Islamic countries come forth though, like Malaysia, and Indonesia and fill in the gaps..

:wa:
But the Turkish minister wants Muslims to deposit their money in Turkish banks, not in Indonesian or Malaysian banks!! :D

Turkey could also launch "Operation Swiss Freedom" to liberate the Swiss people. And warn neighboring countries not to provide weapons to "Swiss terrorists" or "insurgents".

:wa:
Reply

جوري
12-03-2009, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
But the Turkish minister wants Muslims to deposit their money in Turkish banks, not in Indonesian or Malaysian banks!! :D

Turkey could also launch "Operation Swiss Freedom" to liberate the Swiss people. And warn neighboring countries not to provide weapons to "Swiss terrorists" or "insurgents".

:wa:
I wasn't thinking of finances really rather trade goods, I wouldn't mind Turkey on the forefront, however I am not sure how many Turks want that.. I feel that the religious observant Muslims are a minority and that the majority are in favor of secular laws?

I have been to turkey when I was 13 and that was ages ago, it was beautiful but it was dichotomous clearly delineated east and clearly delineated west.. it is a matter of whose voice is more dominant :hmm:
I do like your new minister though.. khyer insha'Allah

:wa:
Reply

Argamemnon
12-04-2009, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I feel that the religious observant Muslims are a minority and that the majority are in favor of secular laws?
The majority of Turks are deeply attached to Islam and don't like the West at all, but the secularists rule the country (although that seems to be changing). Turkish society, probably like most societies, is very diverse and complicated. But the thing is that most Turks are also very nationalistic. Even the most 'fanatical' Islamists are nationalistic. Someone should explain to them that nationalism is a western concept and alien to Islam. I might be exaggerating and generalizing, but it is true to some extent...

I have been to turkey when I was 13 and that was ages ago, it was beautiful but it was dichotomous clearly delineated east and clearly delineated west :wa:
Large numbers of people living in Anatolia and eastern Anatolia - those who are deeply attached to Islam and constitute the majority of the population - have moved to western regions in the past 5-10 years. Even western Turkey doesn't look particularly 'western' anymore, except certain areas of course. There are many alcohol free restaurants and hotels etc. in western Turkey now, which some 'western' Turks find shocking, but they can't stop it...

Unfortunately, western cultural influence has not only affected Turkey. It continues to affect almost all Muslim nations, which is sad but true. I don't know about Egypt, but I hope you realize that for example Moroccans, Tunisians, or Lebanese are not more pious than Turks. I know Turks who have visited Morocco and were shocked (I will not go into details)..

western Turkey in 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oGinBXM0Vc

:wa:
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
The majority of Turks are deeply attached to Islam and don't like the West at all, but the secularists rule the country (although that seems to be changing). Turkish society, probably like most societies, is very diverse and complicated. But the thing is that most Turks are also very nationalistic. Even the most 'fanatical' Islamists are nationalistic. Someone should explain to them that nationalism is a western concept and alien to Islam. I might be exaggerating and generalizing, but it is true to some extent...
glad to hear it al7mdlillah, except for the nationalism part.. but I think that isn't Turkey exclusive.. I think the only way to rid us of that is to travel.. I know it sounds strange but so true.. folks in an area tend to always think they are the best thing to hit the earth since sliced bread and butter ... when I was there though it didn't seem different to me from England or France... I can't describe in which ways.. it was just a feeling.



Large numbers of people living in Anatolia and eastern Anatolia - those who are deeply attached to Islam and constitute the majority of the population - have moved to western regions in the past 5-10 years. Even western Turkey doesn't look particularly 'western' anymore, except certain areas of course. There are many alcohol free restaurants and hotels etc. in western Turkey now, which some 'western' Turks find shocking, but they can't stop it...
I am not sure there is anything anyone can do to stop it regardless.. People have been committing sin since the beginning of time.. hence 'old as sin' lol

Unfortunately, western cultural influence has not only affected Turkey. It continues to affect almost all Muslim nations, which is sad but true. I don't know about Egypt, but I hope you realize that for example Moroccans, Tunisians, or Lebanese are not more pious than Turks. I know Turks who have visited Morocco and were shocked (I will not go into details)..

western Turkey in 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oGinBXM0Vc

:wa:
trust me I know all about Morocco and Egypt is no better, plus it is filled with so much superstition and ridiculous things, pretentiousness and pagan rituals and the power of hands, blue eyes and the number five.. It is sad but there really are good people there, still even Al-Azhar wants to curb on the decent people by passing fatwas against niqab and what not, it is as if there is no more room for someone who chooses the path of God.. it is the path of most resistance... I think that is why there is a hadith about they who hold on to their religion being akin to someone holding a fiery-ember -- jamara min an'nar..

May Allah swt save us these tribulations as they are sure to get worst..:hmm:

:wa:
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 02:25 AM
@ 2:41 in that video there is a woman behind the first two that with her eyes cast down, she looks so much like my deceased grandmother (Allah yerhmha) wow.. that made me so sad..
I enjoyed the video.. Jazaka Allah khyran.. really glad of it.. insha'Allah good things will continue for Turkey and the Muslim world..

:wa:
Reply

Argamemnon
12-04-2009, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
glad to hear it al7mdlillah, except for the nationalism part.. but I think that isn't Turkey exclusive..
But in Turkey secularists have always used and promoted nationalism to keep Turks away from Islam. Turkishness is almost promoted as being a religion (estagfirullah).

I am not sure there is anything anyone can do to stop it regardless.. People have been committing sin since the beginning of time.. hence 'old as sin' lol
I agree, we have to accept that some people will prefer to become kafir, it is their loss, lol..

trust me I know all about Morocco and Egypt is no better, plus it is filled with so much superstition and ridiculous things, pretentiousness and pagan rituals and the power of hands, blue eyes and the number five.. It is sad but there really are good people there, still even Al-Azhar wants to curb on the decent people by passing fatwas against niqab and what not, it is as if there is no more room for someone who chooses the path of God.. it is the path of most resistance... I think that is why there is a hadith about they who hold on to their religion being akin to someone holding a fiery-ember -- jamara min an'nar..

May Allah swt save us these tribulations as they are sure to get worst..:hmm:

:wa:
Thank you for educating me on Egypt. I know this is off topic, but I think Turkey, Iran and Egypt are three key nations in the Middle East/North Africa. These three countries have ancient civilizations/rich cultures and a strong sense of statehood. If they formed an alliance, they could defeat western interference in the Middle East. Arabs, Persians and Turks working together; I know it won't happen, yawn. Nationalism and "national interests" seem to have replaced Islam in most Muslim countries.

:wa:
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon

Thank you for educating me on Egypt. I know this is off topic, but I think Turkey, Iran and Egypt are three key nations in the Middle East/North Africa. These three countries have ancient civilizations/rich cultures and a strong sense of statehood. If they formed an alliance, they could defeat western interference in the Middle East. Arabs, Persians and Turks working together; I know it won't happen, yawn. Nationalism and "national interests" seem to have replaced Islam in most Muslim countries.

:wa:
Oh God yeah, Muslims are there own worst enemies.. if they band together there is no question of what they can do, each region having something the other needs all together a force to be reckoned with, but yes many have vested interest in keeping us in this state and we love to imitate the worst of the west.. Egypt especially, really it is just awful.. turn on the TV in Ramadan and see debauchery full bloom can you imagine the rest of the year. .. you know that 'queen' nazly of Egypt converted to Catholicism.. any governing body in Egypt, I feel are better off as kaffirs, for they can never rid themselves of their pharonic tyrant roots, even if they have no Egyptian at all in them.. just the minute they assume that throne they are bedeviled...

It is going to take something really huge to get it back to where it was or better.. but I have faith in Allah swt that it will, once the bulk of the people change for the better.. Why should Allah swt offer good things to folks who haven't earned it?

:wa:
Reply

Argamemnon
12-04-2009, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Oh God yeah, Muslims are there own worst enemies.. if they band together there is no question of what they can do, each region having something the other needs all together a force to be reckoned with, but yes many have vested interest in keeping us in this state and we love to imitate the worst of the west.. Egypt especially, really it is just awful.. turn on the TV in Ramadan and see debauchery full bloom can you imagine the rest of the year. .. you know that 'queen' nazly of Egypt converted to Catholicism.. any governing body in Egypt, I feel are better off as kaffirs, for they can never rid themselves of their pharonic tyrant roots, even if they have no Egyptian at all in them.. just the minute they assume that throne they are bedeviled...

It is going to take something really huge to get it back to where it was or better.. but I have faith in Allah swt that it will, once the bulk of the people change for the better.. Why should Allah swt offer good things to folks who haven't earned it?

:wa:
Queen Nazli converted to Catholicism from Islam! I didn't know that, but then, I didn't even know who queen Nazli was. Now I know, thank you. And I agree with you, in the end those who are righteous and patient will succeed. It is a promise from Allah in the Qur'an so...

:wa:
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Queen Nazli converted to Catholicism from Islam! I didn't know that, but then, I didn't even know who queen Nazli was. Now I know, thank you. And I agree with you, in the end those who are righteous and patient will succeed. It is a promise from Allah in the Qur'an so...

:wa:
she wasn't worthy of being known.. she had the kuffr face about her, it is amazing that even with her new religion and new god she couldn't keep true to her new tenets having lovers and divorces and several husbands..
I am not sure which is worst, those who are outwardly kaffirs and are frankly treasonous to the blood of citizens (the Monarchy), or those who feign to be pious and still do the same (current regime)..Egypt-- she lies wounded mortally forever licking her wounds as does Palestine which encloses in her deep the blood of her dying children..

It makes me sad imsad

:wa:
Reply

titus
12-04-2009, 05:36 AM
if Muslims believe that Churches arent allowed in the Muslim world, or to be built, then those Muslims really have no place to be complaining about this
Another irony is that someone is currently arguing that Muslim states have the right to attack another country if that country inhibits the spread of Islam.

So under Sharia I guess it is permissible to inhibit other religions from spreading in their country, but they are allowed to conquer anyone that does the same to their religion.

The question then has to be asked: Is this the opinion of most Muslims, or just a few?

Comparing the rights of a democracy that has no religious stance vs a theistic state that has a religious stance is like comparing apples and oranges.
Sorry, that is a cop out. We are comparing two forms of government and how they deal with issues. Abuse is abuse whether it be under a democracy, a theocracy, a plutocracy or a dictatorship. Wrong is wrong, and hypocrisy and hypocrisy no matter what banner if flies under.

I know, I didn't even think that. It's true though, we should see how easy it is to build a large mosque in the centre of the Vatican. If it was easy, then they have my respect. I don't actually think we should, but just as a response to those going on about Saudi and churches.
You are comparing Saudi Arabia with a state smaller than one of my friends' farm. A more correct analogy would be comparing the Vatican with Mecca, although Mecca is roughly 1700 times bigger. A better comparison would be the Vatican and Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām since they are roughly the same size. I think we would all agree it would be ridiculous to propose building a church in the middle of Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām as it would be to build a masjid in the middle of the Vatican.
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 05:40 AM
where is the argument against attacking other countries? do you have both a reading and comprehension impediment?
Reply

titus
12-04-2009, 05:59 AM
It is another thread on this very same subforum. You must have missed it so I will excuse the rude post. I know you have difficulty being civil.

Link
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 06:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
It is another thread on this very same subforum. You must have missed it so I will excuse the rude post. I know you have difficulty being civil.

Link
I don't need excuses from unwelcome gadflies..
you don't get to edit your post for content and then turn it around so that you are an innocent party.
if you don't like it here and I suspect that you dislike Muslims to a great degree, then don't be a member here.. you add absolutely nothing to the value of this forum, in fact I think you bring the quota down for those you represent..

all the best!
Reply

Chuck
12-04-2009, 06:24 AM
Why Saudia always comes into discussion? Comparing Saudia even with any other Islamic country is comparing apples with oranges. Every other Islamic country has churches or other non-muslim places of worship, I don't see what the fuss is about? However, Saudia might allow a church in Riyadh, I heard they are thinking about it.

And there are no public mosques in Athens either.
Reply

Chuck
12-04-2009, 06:30 AM
Over recent years immigration has brought hundreds of thousands of Muslims to the Greek capital.

But while freedom of worship is guaranteed by Greece's constitution as a member of the European Union, proposals for a new mosque have proved controversial in a country whose population is 96% Greek Orthodox.

There are mosques dating from Ottoman times in the old part of Athens known as Plaka. The Fethiye or victory mosque dates back to 1458. But today these buildings are for tourists not for Muslim prayers. One is now a museum of Greek folk art.

Athens is the only EU capital without a purpose-built place of worship for its Muslim population.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5190256.stm
Reply

titus
12-04-2009, 07:17 AM
I don't need excuses from unwelcome gadflies..
You attacked me, remember?

It is not an excuse, by the way. An excuse implies fault. What I gave was explanation. You assumed (incorrectly) that I made something up, when in fact I could provide the source.

you don't get to edit your post for content and then turn it around so that you are an innocent party.
I did not edit it for content. I simply added content. My original post, that you replied to, was everything up to the beginning of the second quote but excluding the first quote.

I did not see your reply until after I had edited the post, so sorry to bust your bubble I did not edit my post because of you. You were completely irrelevant to the edit.

I suspect that you dislike Muslims to a great degree
Then your suspicions are grossly inaccurate. I have a great respect for Muslim and count a few as some of my best friends.

I do have issues with certain hypocrisies I see with some Muslims, this topic being a great example. I see it as a great hypocrisy that you have, on the same forum, Muslims saying it is fine for them to not let other religions build churches and that it is permissible to attack such countries, yet other Muslims saying that what Switzerland and France and other Western countries are doing is wrong.

I do notice, though, that you are extremely disrespectful to anyone that is not a Muslim on these forums. Do you hate all non-Muslims? Or are you simply so defensive that you assume we are all "out to get you" here?

you add absolutely nothing to the value of this forum, in fact I think you bring the quota down for those you represent..
I have had quite a few intelligent, reasoned and civil discussions on this forum. None of them, of course, involving you. If you would cease with the attacks and insults and actually discuss the topics with me you might find that I do have something to offer. It would also help if you rid yourself of these preconceived notions (like I hate Muslims) before you read my posts. For all I know you may actually have something to offer also, but I will never know because you present yourself in such a rude and immature manner. Maybe one day that will change. I certainly hope so because I suspect there may actually be an intelligent human being hiding under the mask of an immature student that you portray yourself as on these forums.

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 07:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You attacked me, remember?
You are second to none in hostilities!
It is not an excuse, by the way. An excuse implies fault. What I gave was explanation. You assumed (incorrectly) that I made something up, when in fact I could provide the source.
When did you supply the source, which btw I didn't even look at it, my reply was in its entirety to your enfeebled insular post which you sought to edit after the fact of the matter!


I did not edit it for content. I simply added content. My original post, that you replied to, was everything up to the beginning of the second quote but excluding the first quote.
You edited for content and added quotes.. from what do you benefit to tell a lie? I don't think anyone here thinks you have any credibility whatsoever, and you tighten the noose around your neck when you mitigate!
I did not see your reply until after I had edited the post, so sorry to bust your bubble I did not edit my post because of you. You were completely irrelevant to the edit.
So what is this all about?


Then your suspicions are grossly inaccurate. I have a great respect for Muslim and count a few as some of my best friends.
Oh and it shows with every post.. I rather feel sorry for your friends to have such low standards, unless you completely conceal your true feelings from them!
I do have issues with certain hypocrisies I see with some Muslims, this topic being a great example. I see it as a great hypocrisy that you have, on the same forum, Muslims saying it is fine for them to not let other religions build churches and that it is permissible to attack such countries, yet other Muslims saying that what Switzerland and France and other Western countries are doing is wrong.
The topic has nothing to do with building anew, it has to do with existing minarets of which there are only four in the entirety of Switzerland-- in fact the true hypocrisy would be the response if Muslims were to pass decrees to annex structures of importance in existing churches, be it alters or benches or whatever else of relevance to the structure.. the problem with you, is that you can't even make a correct analogy to save your dear life and would rather dwell with irrelevant rant!
I do notice, though, that you are extremely disrespectful to anyone that is not a Muslim on these forums. Do you hate all non-Muslims? Or are you simply so defensive that you assume we are all "out to get you" here?
Like your ailing analogies your psychological analysis are akin to braying donkeys


I have had quite a few intelligent, reasoned and civil discussions on this forum. None of them, of course, involving you. If you would cease with the attacks and insults and actually discuss the topics with me you might find that I do have something to offer. It would also help if you rid yourself of these preconceived notions (like I hate Muslims) before you read my posts. For all I know you may actually have something to offer also, but I will never know because you present yourself in such a rude and immature manner. Maybe one day that will change. I certainly hope so because I suspect there may actually be an intelligent human being hiding under the mask of an immature student that you portray yourself as on these forums.
I don't think you have anything to offer, and I find you all around under-educated and distasteful that I'd rather you not incommode us with your tired rhetoric on every thread -- I do run on zero tolerance and don't have to accommodate your ill thought insights and naturally prefer that this forum is homogeneously Muslim.

Peace
All the best
Reply

titus
12-04-2009, 08:22 AM
When did you supply the source, which btw I didn't even look at it, my reply was in its entirety to your enfeebled insular post which you sought to edit after the fact of the matter!
The link to the post was in my post #175. You quoted it yourself in post #176. I have already explained that I edited my post before I saw your post. Did you not bother to read that either?

You edited for content and added quotes.. from what do you benefit to tell a lie?
Don't call me a liar when you have already said you haven't read my posts. I have not lied one iota and anyone that can read can see that.

The topic has nothing to do with building anew, it has to do with existing minarets of which there are only four in the entirety of Switzerland-
The Swiss have voted to stop the building of any more new minarets. It will allow the existing minarets to stay. This topic is completely about building anew so your comment makes no sense at all.

I don't think you have anything to offer, and I find you all around under-educated and distasteful that I'd rather you not incommode us with your tired rhetoric on every thread -- I do run on zero tolerance and don't have to accommodate your ill thought insights and naturally prefer that this forum is homogeneously Muslim.
I think you may have something to offer, you just never do because you are too busy with the insulting and ranting. You know I am more educated than you are, so it's silly to say these things to try and upset me.
Reply

جوري
12-04-2009, 08:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
The link to the post was in my post #175. You quoted it yourself in post #176. I have already explained that I edited my post before I saw your post. Did you not bother to read that either?
Are you playing dumb or what? my post number 174 is a response to your now edited completely modified from original post.. anyone can scroll back a page and see that for themselves!
Why would I bother read an addendum that you had inserted which is of no relevance to what you had previously written and to which I had already replied?

Don't call me a liar when you have already said you haven't read my posts. I have not lied one iota and anyone that can read can see that.
But you are a liar.. a subsequent post with a link has no relevance to what was already posted or what you had edited.. you don't get to modulate what you mean as you see fit!



The Swiss have voted to stop the building of any more new minarets. It will allow the existing minarets to stay. This topic is completely about building anew so your comment makes no sense at all.
The vote is to ban minarets. Logic dictates that if there are only four mosques sporting minarets that all that is built is built without them.. it is not that difficult! and begs the question of what Muslim power they represent when a minaret is designed for the call of prayer, not to hide cannons!


I think you may have something to offer, you just never do because you are too busy with the insulting and ranting. You know I am more educated than you are, so it's silly to say these things to try and upset me.
Sure you are very educated, whatever you have to convince yourself with to keep going..
There isn't a competition of who is more educated. You are under-educated with no contrast to anyone on board, except perhaps the sort of folk you represent in which case stratifying you on lack of education is as ridiculous as having this discussion.

all the best
Reply

afzalaung
12-04-2009, 12:16 PM
I was just wondering...since minarets are banned....why dont we (of they, the Swiss Muslims) build bigger, taller domes.
Reply

Amadeus85
12-04-2009, 01:23 PM
European conservatives (the true) and faithful muslims have in common that we all believe that the problem of our places lays in ourselves. The biggest enemies of Europe are europeans, and as I noticed here some of You say that the problem of muslim world lays in muslim citizens. Maybe its not good place to express it here, but You should know that european catholic traditionalists condemned the western agression against Iraq and Afghanistan.
Reply

titus
12-04-2009, 02:28 PM
But you are a liar.. a subsequent post with a link has no relevance to what was already posted or what you had edited..
I posted my comment about people on this forum saying "Another irony is that someone is currently arguing that Muslim states have the right to attack another country if that country inhibits the spread of Islam."

You replied with "where is the argument against attacking other countries? do you have both a reading and comprehension impediment?"

I then posted a link with that argument.

The link was completely relevant.

But you are a liar.. a subsequent post with a link has no relevance to what was already posted or what you had edited.. you don't get to modulate what you mean as you see fit!
I did not modify, I added. I changed nothing that I had written, I simply added more content (Before I saw your post I may add). Your following post was a direct reply to the first paragraph of my post which was not changed at all.

The vote is to ban minarets. Logic dictates that if there are only four mosques sporting minarets that all that is built is built without them.. it is not that difficult!
Yes, the new law does nothing regarding the existing minarets but simply bans the building of all new minarets. That's why your comment that "The topic has nothing to do with building anew, it has to do with existing minarets" made no sense.

Sure you are very educated, whatever you have to convince yourself with to keep going..
There isn't a competition of who is more educated.
I do not need to convince myself of anything. You keep broaching the topic so I am explaining to you the situation.

You are right, this is not a competition of who is more educated. This is an attempt to have dialogue with someone that does not believe exactly as I do. I would rather have a straight conversation with you and not trade insults back and forth. You calling me a liar and uneducated is about as fruitful as it would be if I went and corrected the spelling in your posts.
Reply

Uthman
12-04-2009, 06:59 PM
Jewish leader says Swiss vote shows Europe's growing anti-Muslim views

Muslim Scholars Blast Swiss Minarets Ban
Reply

جوري
12-05-2009, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I posted my comment about people on this forum saying "Another irony is that someone is currently arguing that Muslim states have the right to attack another country if that country inhibits the spread of Islam."

You replied with "where is the argument against attacking other countries? do you have both a reading and comprehension impediment?"

I then posted a link with that argument.

The link was completely relevant.
Perhaps you can enlighten us to relevance?


I did not modify, I added. I changed nothing that I had written, I simply added more content (Before I saw your post I may add). Your following post was a direct reply to the first paragraph of my post which was not changed at all.
and my comment stands for your original sans the modification. It is very apropos!

Yes, the new law does nothing regarding the existing minarets but simply bans the building of all new minarets. That's why your comment that "The topic has nothing to do with building anew, it has to do with existing minarets" made no sense.
a nonsensical law, like your nonsensical argument-- if it were of any relevance at all, we wouldn't have only four minarets standing in that entire country (representing Islamic power) --


I do not need to convince myself of anything. You keep broaching the topic so I am explaining to you the situation.
You explaining the situation really hasn't changed the obvious!

You are right, this is not a competition of who is more educated. This is an attempt to have dialogue with someone that does not believe exactly as I do. I would rather have a straight conversation with you and not trade insults back and forth. You calling me a liar and uneducated is about as fruitful as it would be if I went and corrected the spelling in your posts.
God, you are so witty, you do that, go correct my spelling errors!
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-05-2009, 11:00 AM
It is an irrational reaction to a rational concern.
Reply

Supreme
12-05-2009, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is an irrational reaction to a rational concern.
My thoughts summed up completely.
Reply

Justufy
12-05-2009, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is an irrational reaction to a rational concern.
I completely agree.
Reply

Justufy
12-05-2009, 09:06 PM
Gossamer skye wrote:

The topic has nothing to do with building anew, it has to do with existing minarets of which there are only four in the entirety of Switzerland-- in fact the true hypocrisy would be the response if Muslims were to pass decrees to annex structures of importance in existing churches, be it alters or benches or whatever else of relevance to the structure.. the problem with you, is that you can't even make a correct analogy to save your dear life and would rather dwell with irrelevant rant!

I disagree, the law targets ONLY ''building anew'':hiding:
Reply

جوري
12-05-2009, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
Gossamer skye wrote:




I disagree, the law targets ONLY ''building anew'':hiding:
You agree with a militant atheist that it is rational to fear Muslims, though the minaret is probably the wrong route to go about it, and know that though there are probably a sizable number of mosques to which there are no minarets and only four exist to symbolize 'Islamic power' what kind of response do you honestly expect in return? I suggest you take a look at the reasons you are Muslim, if you are indeed one.. it is better to be a strong coward than a weak believer!


all the best!
Reply

Justufy
12-05-2009, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You agree with a militant atheist that it is rational to fear Muslims, though the minaret is probably the wrong route to go about it, and know that though there are probably a sizable number of mosques to which there are no minarets and only four exist to symbolize 'Islamic power' what kind of response do you honestly expect in return? I suggest you take a look at the reasons you are Muslim, if you are indeed one.. it is better to be a strong coward than a weak believer!


all the best!

Never agreed to him, I agreed the fears were irrational.

I suggest you take a look at the reasons you are Muslim, if you are indeed one..
How dare you? I have been a muslim my whole life, pherhaps this is why some people complain that you appear downright offensive at times.
Reply

Supreme
12-05-2009, 11:44 PM
How dare you? I have been a muslim my whole life, pherhaps this is why some people complain that you appear downright offensive at times.
Oh come on, how can you possibly be offended by someone who claims that 'exposing' Christianity on an online forum is their hobby?
Reply

جوري
12-05-2009, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is an irrational reaction to a rational concern.
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
I completely agree.
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
Never agreed to him, I agreed the fears were irrational.
'completely' denotes in totality, in full in the entire extent!
He (a militant atheist) believes that it is a rational fear, with an irrational approach, you agreeing in 'completely' means not in half or in part but with his entire sentiment, it really isn't difficult why we'd draw the conclusion we have!


How dare you?
It isn't difficult to point out how your beliefs and opinion are at odds with the Muslim front!
I have been a muslim my whole life,
Irrelevant, when actions speak the contrary!

pherhaps this is why some people complain that you appear downright offensive at times.
And you go on to hammer in the point by backbiting other members!

well done!
Reply

جوري
12-05-2009, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Oh come on, how can you possibly be offended by someone who claims that 'exposing' Christianity on an online forum is their hobby?
ingratiate yourself to members I fear is no substitute for not coming up with a lucid integrated responses to questions raised!
It is a child that gnarls and a man that speaks his mind!
Reply

Uthman
12-05-2009, 11:57 PM
Alright people, that's enough. Let's leave it at that and return to constructively discussing the topic again.
Reply

titus
12-06-2009, 06:53 AM
Perhaps you can enlighten us to relevance?
You claimed nobody said any such thing. I provided the link to prove it.

a nonsensical law, like your nonsensical argument-- if it were of any relevance at all, we wouldn't have only four minarets standing in that entire country (representing Islamic power) --
The law is ridiculous, I agree with you there. I have said so already.

The only thing nonsensical is your statement that this topic has nothing to do with building anew, when that is exactly what the law specified.

God, you are so witty, you do that, go correct my spelling errors!
Post #70 demand that they remove alters from churches

Should be "altars"

Post #166 save us these tribulations as they are sure to get worst

Should be "worse"

Post #179 Like your ailing analogies your psychological analysis are akin to braying donkeys

Should be "analyses" as it should be plural to keep the sentence parallel

You definitely need to learn how to use commas. I would also quit trying to impress people with a vocabulary you can barely handle. Your misuse of words is fairly common and others make no sense in the context of your sentences.

It is more important what you say than the words you use to say them. I highly recommend that you stop trying to insert what I call "$5 words" into your posts. I know you think they make you sound intelligent, but when you misuse them as you sometimes do it creates the opposite effect. Place more importance on what you say rather than how you say it. It will make you more persuasive.

I would also cut out the personal insults you feel the need to inject in every post. They make you appear petulant.
Reply

Justufy
12-06-2009, 07:48 PM
Can we all just get on topic?

I think that english is not Gossamer's first language just like english is not my first language, this is why she makes mistakes and you should not point these out, lets just get back on topic.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2009, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You claimed nobody said any such thing. I provided the link to prove it.
Any such what? and what does it have to do with the thread?

The law is ridiculous, I agree with you there. I have said so already.
OK

The only thing nonsensical is your statement that this topic has nothing to do with building anew, when that is exactly what the law specified.
you must have strained really hard to arrive to that conclusion. The fact that existing Mosques if they have been built are built without minarets would render this law useless all together, there are only four mosques with Minarets already tells me that swiss are straining as hard as you to make an issue of a non-issue!


Post #70 demand that they remove alters from churches

Should be "altars"
Indeed, I am sure as you have pointed out it wasn't difficult to come to the correct meaning this isn't English class-- it is a forum and you are writing in a section entitled 'world affair' if you want to instruct us on use of language, there is a section for that. parting with vacuous comments on syntax and structure only cements how much free time you have on your hand and lack of anything of substance to impart as pertains to the subject matter!

Post #166 save us these tribulations as they are sure to get worst

Should be "worse"
'worst' (superlative of 'bad') most wanting in quality or value or condition
"the worst player on the team"; "the worst weather of the year"; 'the worst is yet to come'

you should consult a dictionary, again before you strain so hard as you have with 'irregardless' but who is keeping a record?
Post #179 Like your ailing analogies your psychological analysis are akin to braying donkeys

Should be "analyses" as it should be plural to keep the sentence parallel
We can call it even given your numerous bloopers!

You definitely need to learn how to use commas. I would also quit trying to impress people with a vocabulary you can barely handle. Your misuse of words is fairly common and others make no sense in the context of your sentences.
That seems like an adequate insight into your own psyche.. English is hardly something to impress people with, as even the thought of 'impressing people' is a trait best left to children, you seem stuck at a preoperational egocentric stage and unable to distinguish your own perspective from that of others and the best you can do is project your own feelings of inadequacies -- Even beggars in remote parts of the world are bilingual, I speak three languages, and have a doctorate, what do you have, a book on 'rules of thump'?.. If I were you I'd try to be perfect from now on-- seems you have committed yourself to front-line infantry with your foolish occupation-- be prepared come what may!

It is more important what you say than the words you use to say them. I highly recommend that you stop trying to insert what I call "$5 words" into your posts. I know you think they make you sound intelligent, but when you misuse them as you sometimes do it creates the opposite effect. Place more importance on what you say rather than how you say it. It will make
Indeed what I write is more important and can't be misconstrued even if I substitute an I for E. I actually address the subject matter at hand and don't go off on tangents of my peeves-- this isn't calisthenics with words as you seem to have not learned anything from your previous blunder with another forumer (<I am coining the term)!
You fixating on a tangent outside of 'swiss ban' not only paints you as a pathetic narcissist (and this isn't the place to purge for free) but makes this more your problem than mine-- My self worth doesn't rest on the tirade of a deranged member and his drive by shootings with the rules of thump.
I would also cut out the personal insults you feel the need to inject in every post. They make you appear petulant.
We like board jesters here as in any other forum, but again there is a section for that and this isn't it!

P.S how much did you pay for petulant? :D
thanks for the laugh, reading what you write is always relaxing and virtually appealing! coma coma coma ellipsis ellipsis dash dash!

all the best
Reply

Justufy
12-06-2009, 08:32 PM
I speak three languages, and have a doctorate
Sorry but this call to your own competence is sophistry and will not in any way give you credibility in a debate.
Reply

titus
12-06-2009, 08:35 PM
worst' (superlative of 'bad') most wanting in quality or value or condition
The correct word to use in your sentence is "worse", not "worst". If you do not understand this then your grasp of English is worst than I thought.

parting with vacuous comments on syntax and structure only cements how much free time you have on your hand and lack of anything of substance to impart as pertains to the subject matter!
You asked me to comment on it, remember? Don't get upset because I am doing what you asked me to do. It is also an extremely ironic statement coming from someone that just made a lengthy post about this tangent.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2009, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
The correct word to use in your sentence is "worse", not "worst". If you do not understand this then your grasp of English is worst than I thought.
You seem to be under the impression that your assessment of my English holds some sort of value?

You asked me to comment on it, remember? Don't get upset because I am doing what you asked me to do. It is also an extremely ironic statement coming from someone that just made a lengthy post about this tangent.
ah, what i wrote was meant to convey sarcasm, if you don't understand that then you your grasp of abstract thought is worst than I thought ..
irony? Did you not labor in another thread over the use of the word 'irregardless' claiming it doesn't exist and let that spiral for a few pages...

'tis true, ''Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"

all the best
Reply

جوري
12-06-2009, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
Sorry but this call to your own competence is sophistry and will not in any way give you credibility in a debate.

perhaps you can point the debate? The gentleman here is discussing English as his crowning achievement and the downfall of the opposition. If this has been difficult for you to follow which I suspect it is-- then stay out all together, I don't need you to obtrude yourself in a topic that is of no concern to you!

all the best
Reply

Justufy
12-06-2009, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
perhaps you can point the debate? The gentleman here is discussing English as his crowning achievement and the downfall of the opposition. If this has been difficult for you to follow which I suspect it is-- then stay out all together, I don't need you to obtrude yourself in a topic that is of no concern to you!

all the best
I stand corrected and forwarned.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2009, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
I stand corrected and forwarned.
Glad you got the gist of that since English isn't Gossamer's first language!

but since we are being tangential and love to take stabs on syntax, spelling and grammar as the marrow of this topic, the word you are looking for is forewarned not forwarned!

all the best
Reply

Uthman
12-06-2009, 09:28 PM
Get back on topic please everybody. And drop the personal attacks and general pettiness which plagues this section all too often.

Seriously. I haven't issued an infraction in a while...
Reply

Uthman
12-08-2009, 11:33 AM
Swiss referendum - a mockery of democracy

Why Boycotting Swiss Cheese is Not a Good Idea
Reply

جوري
12-08-2009, 06:50 PM
I don't know if it is my computer but your second link about not boycotting their cheese isn't working..

Who eats swiss cheese anyway, it is probably the worst cheese there is..




Now you know how the holes got in there =)
Reply

Supreme
12-08-2009, 07:45 PM
Swiss chocolate is where it's at.
Reply

Ramadhan
12-09-2009, 05:56 AM
ok, I'll switch to belgian chocolates from now
They are expensive though :( at least here in Indonesia where import taxes are pretty high
Reply

Supreme
12-09-2009, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
ok, I'll switch to belgian chocolates from now
They are expensive though :( at least here in Indonesia where import taxes are pretty high
Belgian chocolate, Swiss chocolate, German chocolate, it's all pathetic in the face of Milka, which isn't available in the UK.
Reply

Uthman
12-09-2009, 05:27 PM
What's in a minaret?

What Does the Vote Against Minarets Mean? (Part 1)

Why Did People Vote for Banning Minarets? (Part 2)

Nicolas Sarkozy defends Swiss minaret ban
Reply

Chuck
12-09-2009, 06:20 PM
Jon Stewart on Swiss Minaret ban (very funny): http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...---switzerland
Reply

Uthman
12-10-2009, 06:44 PM
France and the Swiss minaret vote - By Nicolas Sarkozy
Reply

duskiness
12-10-2009, 08:48 PM
i admit that I haven't read the whole tread but if it will warm your hear I know that there were protests agains the ban. How I know? Well my sister was on one :)
Swiss cities march against minaret ban
Catholic bishops oppose minaret ban
Evangelical Church federation statement

oh...and btw: you all know that what is the legal situation of christians and other religious minorities in Saudi Arabia (much more sever than in Switzerland). Why I never hear about Muslims stand up for them?
Reply

Supreme
12-10-2009, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
i admit that I haven't read the whole tread but if it will warm your hear I know that there were protests agains the ban. How I know? Well my sister was on one :)
Swiss cities march against minaret ban
Catholic bishops oppose minaret ban
Evangelical Church federation statement

oh...and btw: you all know that what is the legal situation of christians and other religious minorities in Saudi Arabia (much more sever than in Switzerland). Why I never hear about Muslims stand up for them?
Err.. yes... we've already had this discussion, the conclusion of which suggested that Saudi Arabia was a backwards autocracy imposing Wahabi Islam on its residents, whereas Switzerland is a Western democracy where all peoples are free to practise their religion, and (should) lead the world by example.
Reply

Uthman
12-23-2009, 05:07 PM
Minarets, One of the Swiss Religious Controversies (Part 3)
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-07-2012, 08:55 PM
  2. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-14-2010, 10:39 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-02-2010, 08:13 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-07-2009, 02:01 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!