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Uthman
07-12-2008, 10:10 PM
A French court has denied citizenship to a Muslim woman from Morocco, ruling that her practice of "radical" Islam is not compatible with French values.


Faiza M was described to be living "virtually as a recluse"

The 32-year-old woman, known as Faiza M, has lived in France since 2000 with her husband - a French national - and their three French-born children.

Social services reports said the burqa-wearing Faiza M lived in "total submission to her male relatives".

Faiza M said she has never challenged the fundamental values of France.

Her initial application for French citizenship was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France.

She appealed, and late last month the Conseil d'Etat, France's highest administrative body which also acts as a high court, upheld the decision to deny her citizenship.

Source
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KAding
07-13-2008, 12:57 AM
A difficult case. On the one hand I'm not against countries setting certain standards for citizenship. In fact, I think these standards on citizenship/immigration are virtually the only legitimate instruments the state has to act against fundamentalism. You can't stop your citizens from following radical ideas, at least not without illiberal measures, but you can prevent radicals from abroad from settling in your country. On the other hand, in this case she clearly has links in France, having a French husband and children.
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Brother_Mujahid
07-13-2008, 01:19 AM
well look on the bright side she still can pray and practice her Islam.
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 09:16 AM
France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam

· Expert says Moroccan lives 'almost as a recluse'
· Case reopens debate about freedom of religion


A woman wearing a burqa. France has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds of 'insufficient assimilation'. Photograph: John Moore/Getty Images

France has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes.

The case yesterday reopened the debate about Islam in France, and how the secular republic reconciles itself with the freedom of religion guaranteed by the French constitution.

The woman, known as Faiza M, is 32, married to a French national and lives east of Paris. She has lived in France since 2000, speaks good French and has three children born in France. Social services reports said she lived in "total submission" to her husband. Her application for French nationality was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France. She appealed, invoking the French constitutional right to religious freedom and saying that she had never sought to challenge the fundamental values of France. But last month the Council of State, France's highest administrative body, upheld the ruling.

"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," it said.

"Is the burqa incompatible with French citizenship?" asked Le Monde, which broke the story. The paper said it was the first time the level of a person's personal religious practice had been used to rule on their capacity be to assimilated into France.

The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."

The woman had said she was not veiled when she lived in Morocco and had worn the burqa since arriving in France at the request of her husband. She said she wore it more from habit than conviction.

Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, said it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship. "If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," he told Le Monde.

Jean-Pierre Dubois, head of France's Human Rights League, said he was "vigilant" and was seeking more information.

France is home to nearly 5 million Muslims, roughly half of whom are French citizens. Criteria taken into account for granting French citizenship includes "assimilation", which normally focuses on how well the candidate speaks French. In the past nationality was denied to Muslims who were known to have links with extremists or who had publicly advocated radicalism, but that was not the case of Faiza M.

The ruling comes weeks after a controversy prompted by a court annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.

France's ban on headscarves and other religious symbols in state schools in 2004 sparked a heated debate over freedom and equality within the secular republic. The French government adheres to the theory that all French citizens are equal before the republic, and religion or ethnic background are matters for the private sphere. In practice, rights groups say, society is plagued by discrimination.

The president, Nicolas Sarkozy, has stressed the importance of "integration" into French life. Part of his heightened controls on immigrants is a new law to make foreigners who want to join their families sit an exam on French language and values before leaving their countries.

Source
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07-13-2008, 09:18 AM
they can go n knock themselves out

they cant stop us from practiscing our religion

so do 1!!
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Al-Zaara
07-13-2008, 09:22 AM
The French again.. This is just sad.

If an Muslim female who has the French citizenship, begins to wear the burqa afterwards, will then her citizenship be taken away? Who knows, one day they might go that far. (or are they already?)
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 10:44 AM
1 - If they want to reject her citizenship then fine, but then they should stop claiming to grant freedom of religion because they don't.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.
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Al-Zaara
07-13-2008, 12:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
1 - If they want to reject her citizenship then fine, but then they should stop claiming to grant freedom of religion because they don't.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.
That should be the new definition of France.
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KAding
07-13-2008, 12:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
1 - If they want to reject her citizenship then fine, but then they should stop claiming to grant freedom of religion because they don't.
Well, in most states these rights are granted to nationals of that state. You don't have an intrinsic right to immigrate to France, though. The French are IMHO free to set standards for immigrants, such as, for example, demands of economic self-sufficiency or a degree of social integration.

2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.
They say the same about the Islamic understanding of gender equality no doubt. I would tend to agree.
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Malaikah
07-13-2008, 12:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, said it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship. "If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," he told Le Monde.
:sl:

Well said.

This is pretty shocking. I didn't realise France had become a dictatorship. This is ridiculous. I honest hope this is just a case of the media taking the story out of context or twisting, because it is just so hard to believe.
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Amadeus85
07-13-2008, 12:58 PM
I think that France has much better system of assimilation than UK for example. England accepts(at least they used to) every radical cleric, give him money,social help etc. France has new immigrant law which is much stricted than the older one.I think that France is already full of africans and asians.Its time to set up some barriers to this flood.
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The_Prince
07-13-2008, 04:53 PM
were taking over anyways, so no biggy. :) one day we will be banning them from doing things.

we already own the chrysler building in NYC muaahahahahahaha
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mediadave
07-13-2008, 04:56 PM
Well, there's no automatic right to french citizenship, and reading the second report...

The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."
It sounds like she lives and intends to live her life far from the french ideal, ignoring rights that the French fought hard to gain in the first place.
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 05:30 PM
Hi KAding,

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
You don't have an intrinsic right to immigrate to France, though. The French are IMHO free to set standards for immigrants, such as, for example, demands of economic self-sufficiency or a degree of social integration.
I have no problem with that - it makes sense. I think they really just need to clearly define how far freedom of religion goes. I understand that this right cannot be absolute - that would be stupid but they need to clearly define where exactly they are going to draw the line and then be consistent with that.

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
2 - They have a flawed understanding of gender equality.
They say the same about the Islamic understanding of gender equality no doubt. I would tend to agree.
I don't doubt that either but I'm not sure what you mean. Would you tend to agree with me or them?

Regards
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KAding
07-13-2008, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Well said.

This is pretty shocking. I didn't realise France had become a dictatorship. This is ridiculous. I honest hope this is just a case of the media taking the story out of context or twisting, because it is just so hard to believe.
I'm confused by your disbelief. What exactly are you shocked about? That countries have certain criteria for allowing foreigners to settle and become citizens? Or that one of those criteria is a certain degree of integration and social participation?
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 05:35 PM
Hi mediadave,

format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
Well, there's no automatic right to french citizenship, and reading the second report...
The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."
It sounds like she lives and intends to live her life far from the french ideal, ignoring rights that the French fought hard to gain in the first place.
A couple of points:

1 - The French have fought hard for the rights that they have, no doubt but imo it should be up to her whether she wishes to take advantage of them. Surely the fact that she doesn't intend to aren't justifiable grounds upon which to reject her citizenship?

2 - This particular women has a husband who is a French national and three French-born children. She should be allowed to live with them.

Regards
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 05:36 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
I honest hope this is just a case of the media taking the story out of context or twisting, because it is just so hard to believe.
Unlikely. The BBC and the guardian are quite reliable news sources.

:w:
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Musaafirah
07-13-2008, 05:38 PM
The fact is though, that the woman is doing no harm to the French citizens. If she wants to stay at home so be it.
She should be allowed to stay though, coz her family's there..
It'd be [retty upsetting to know that she'd be extradited to her home country, for simply not 'fitting in', I'm sure there are plenty of French citizens who are unable to 'assimilate' into French Society...
Ooh la la la :muddlehea
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AvarAllahNoor
07-13-2008, 05:40 PM
Are there no muslim women in france currently that wear the burkha?
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mediadave
07-13-2008, 06:12 PM
A couple of points:

1 - The French have fought hard for the rights that they have, no doubt but imo it should be up to her whether she wishes to take advantage of them. Surely the fact that she doesn't intend to aren't justifiable grounds upon which to reject her citizenship?

2 - This particular women has a husband who is a French national and three French-born children. She should be allowed to live with them.

Regards
Hey,

1- She has every right to practice her religion as she sees fit. The French have every right to deny her citizenship because of that.

2- she's living in france, and I presume will still be allowed to live in france.
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mediadave
07-13-2008, 06:14 PM
It'd be [retty upsetting to know that she'd be extradited to her home country, for simply not 'fitting in', I'm sure there are plenty of French citizens who are unable to 'assimilate' into French Society...
I don't think they're any hint that she'll be thrown out of France.
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Musaafirah
07-13-2008, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
I don't think they're any hint that she'll be thrown out of France.
Fair enough, but they're denying her citizenship..
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mediadave
07-13-2008, 06:25 PM
Fair enough, but they're denying her citizenship..
Well, I don't think citizenship should be something that you should get for just turning up. It should be a privelage that you should have to work hard to achieve.

Its like the English people that move to Spain. They just stick in their little communities, never learning spanish, never contributing anything to the larger community, just drinking beer and eating fish and chips. I hope that sort of person would never be allowed to become a citizen.
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the reply. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
1- She has every right to practice her religion as she sees fit. The French have every right to deny her citizenship because of that.
Where does freedom of religion come into this? Isn't that one of the hard-earned rights of the French people? To claim to offer freedom of religion, and then deny somebody citizenship because of their religious practices is nothing short of hypocrisy.

format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
2- she's living in france, and I presume will still be allowed to live in france.
Yeah, good point. I misread the article. :rolleyes:

:w:
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Uthman
07-13-2008, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
Well, I don't think citizenship should be something that you should get for just turning up. It should be a privelage that you should have to work hard to achieve.
I can see some sense in that. I guess some more knowledge on her part about France as a country wouldn't have gone amiss.

Apart from that, they are only willing to grant her citizenship on the condition that she compromises her religion. Is that really fair?
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Tornado
07-13-2008, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
Well, I don't think citizenship should be something that you should get for just turning up. It should be a privelage that you should have to work hard to achieve.

Its like the English people that move to Spain. They just stick in their little communities, never learning spanish, never contributing anything to the larger community, just drinking beer and eating fish and chips. I hope that sort of person would never be allowed to become a citizen.
What you wear I doubt has an impact on how much you contribute to society. This situation is a little difficult because it's understandable why some people would get upset. Talking to a person with a veil on I doubt is fun, you can not read their expression and you can't tell who you are talking to (besides a name) and in some ways that would be awkward.
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'Abd-al Latif
07-13-2008, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
A French court has denied citizenship to a Muslim woman from Morocco, ruling that her practice of "radical" Islam is not compatible with French values.


Faiza M was described to be living "virtually as a recluse"

The 32-year-old woman, known as Faiza M, has lived in France since 2000 with her husband - a French national - and their three French-born children.

Social services reports said the burqa-wearing Faiza M lived in "total submission to her male relatives".

Faiza M said she has never challenged the fundamental values of France.

Her initial application for French citizenship was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France.

She appealed, and late last month the Conseil d'Etat, France's highest administrative body which also acts as a high court, upheld the decision to deny her citizenship.

Source
Masha'Allah Allah has made her piety known in this world and may He do the same in aakhira. And may Allah give her the ability to hold on to this religion with strength.

Make du'a for your sister.
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mediadave
07-13-2008, 11:26 PM
I think the veil issue is a bit of a red herring - there are of course french citizens who do wear the veil, and it wasn't mentioned that the veil was a reason for her rejection. What was mentioned was her complete lack of knowledge of French customs, laws, and presumably history.

And don't equate French secularism with complete freedom of religion - the French state has been contstraining the Catholic Church for a long time, and after the French Revolution one of the first acts was the (short lived) banning of Christianity (and its replacement by a state controlled 'Church of the Supreme Being'). French secularism is more freedom from Religion, than Freedom of religion.
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BlackMamba
07-14-2008, 12:14 AM
Wow America is so much better than France
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Malaikah
07-16-2008, 01:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I'm confused by your disbelief. What exactly are you shocked about? That countries have certain criteria for allowing foreigners to settle and become citizens? Or that one of those criteria is a certain degree of integration and social participation?
Are you kidding me? Is she doing anything illegal? Is she imposing her way of living on any one else? Why is that anyone else business as long as she isn't breaking the law or causing harm to others?
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Amadeus85
07-16-2008, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Are you kidding me? Is she doing anything illegal? Is she imposing her way of living on any one else? Why is that anyone else business as long as she isn't breaking the law or causing harm to others?
You suggest that France should accept every immigrant asking for the citizenship?
It would be about 3 million Africans a year.
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Tania
07-16-2008, 03:00 PM
If she can live in France from now on, she shouldn't be bother about citizenship :-[
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Uthman
07-16-2008, 05:19 PM
French minister denounces burqa

A Muslim member of the French government has backed a court's decision to deny citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears the burqa.

Urban Affairs Minister Fadela Amara said she hoped last month's ruling would "dissuade certain fanatics from imposing the burqa on their wives".

She told the newspaper, Le Parisien, the head-to-toe garment was a "prison".

The Moroccan woman, Faiza M, was told that her practice of "radical" Islam was not compatible with French values.

The 32-year-old, who has lived in France since 2000 with her husband - a French national - and their three French-born children, said she had never challenged the country's fundamental values.

Social services reports said the burqa-wearing Faiza M lived in "total submission to her male relatives".

'Straitjacket'


Ms Amara, who is a French-born Muslim of Algerian parentage, said she supported the ruling in June by France's highest administrative court, the Conseil d'Etat.

It is not a religious insignia but the insignia of a totalitarian political project that advocates inequality between the sexes and which is totally devoid of democracy


Fadela Amara
French Urban Affairs Minister


"The burqa is a prison, it's a straightjacket," she told Le Parisien.

"It is not a religious insignia but the insignia of a totalitarian political project that advocates inequality between the sexes and which is totally devoid of democracy."

The minister said she hoped the court's ruling might in future "dissuade certain fanatics from imposing the burqa on their wives".

Ms Amara, who is also a prominent women's rights campaigner, said she made no distinction between the veil and the burqa, describing both as symbols of oppression for women.

"It's just a question of centimetres of fabric," she added.

Source
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truemuslim
07-16-2008, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
were taking over anyways, so no biggy. :) one day we will be banning them from doing things.

we already own the chrysler building in NYC muaahahahahahaha
Lool yah thats sooo cool.



I hate french people anyways. but then again i hate greek, british, romans, etc etc (except any muslim ones:rolleyes:)

i hate them. why would they ever think this will eever benifit them at all?? :thumbs_do
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Uthman
07-16-2008, 05:40 PM
PARIS: A Muslim woman who sheaths herself in a head-to-toe veil is denied French citizenship because she hasn't assimilated enough into this society. France's highest body upholds the decision, and politicians across the spectrum agree it was the right move.

A few dissenting voices, though, are questioning whether the decision pushes France's secularist values too far.

"Where does it begin or end; what we are calling radical behavior?" asked Mohammed Bechari, president of the National Federation of French Muslims. "Will we see a man refused citizenship because of the length of his beard ... or a man who is dressed as a rabbi, or a priest?"

Critics accuse the French justice system of using secularism as an excuse for breeding fear and intolerance of Islam in a country home to western Europe's largest Muslim population, estimated at least 5 million of the nation's 63 million people — and growing.

French officialdom has struggled to instill secular traditions in diverse and evolving Muslim immigrant communities, passing a law in 2004 barring the Islamic headscarf and other highly visible religious symbols from public schools. Proponents of that law welcomed the decision denying citizenship to a woman wearing a niqab, or full-body veil, to her meetings with immigration officials.

"The burqa — it's a prison, a straitjacket," said France's minister for urban affairs, Fadela Amara, herself born to Algerian parents.

The terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably in France, though the former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes.

"It is not a religious sign but the visible sign of a totalitarian political project preaching inequality between the sexes, and which carries within it the total absence of democracy," Amara was quoted as saying in the daily Le Parisien.

Amara said she hoped extremists would get a strong message from the Council of State's ruling upholding immigration officials' refusal to grant citizenship to Faiza X, as the woman is referred to in the document.

The Council's June 27 ruling says Faiza X "has adopted a radical practice of her religion incompatible with the essential values of the French community, notably with the principle of equality of the sexes, and therefore she does not fulfill the conditions of assimilation" listed in the country's Civil Code as a requirement for gaining French citizenship.

The council said the decision to refuse her citizenship did not aim to "attack (her) freedom of religion."

The ruling did not refer to her niqab, which she said she adopted after arriving in France from her native Morocco, according to a report from a government commissioner to the Council.

The woman told immigration officials that she did not know anything about secularism or her right to vote, according to the commissioner's report. All the immigration officials handling her case were women. They asked her to remove her veil to identify herself, which she did only when no men were in the room, the report said.

Later, in a letter to immigration officials, the woman defended her lifestyle by noting that other immigrants granted French citizenship also maintain "ties with their culture of origin."

The woman and her husband told immigration officials that they adhere to Salafism, a strict strain of Islam.

Her statements to immigration officials indicate that "she leads a life almost of a recluse, cut off from French society," leaving the house only to walk with her children or visit relatives, the report said.

"She lives in total submission to the men in her family ... and the idea of
contesting this submission doesn't even occur to her," the government report said.

Politicians on talk shows this week spoke out in support of the ruling. But Muslim groups had mixed reactions.

Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the moderate French Council for Muslim Communities, issued a cautious statement Wednesday saying his group "rejects all forms of extremism and stigmas that would keep the Muslim component of the nation's society from living its spirituality in peace."

Fouad Alaoui, vice president of the Union of Islamic Organizations of France, said: "It's a turning point in our judiciary that should make us think.

"I don't think that clothing is part of this country's values. Clothing is personal freedom."

Then he added, "On a personal level, I, too, am disturbed when I see a woman hide her face."

Source
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islamirama
07-17-2008, 01:07 AM
Comments:

This means that Muslim states like Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco Yemen, and other Islamic states, can revoke the citizenship of their Christian and Jewish populations because they have never assimilated.

In other words, unless Christians and Jews living in the Muslim World start to dress and cover like Muslims (of course Muslims must first start to dress like Muslims) and denounce the aggression and violence by Western nations and Israel against Muslims, they will be stripped of their citizenship and their residency terminated!
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islamirama
07-17-2008, 01:17 AM
A Muslim member of the French government has backed a court's decision to deny citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears the burqa.

Ms Amara, who is a French-born Muslim of Algerian parentage, said she supported the ruling in June by France's highest administrative court, the Conseil d'Etat.

"The burqa is a prison, it's a straightjacket," she told Le Parisien.

"It is not a religious insignia but the insignia of a totalitarian political project that advocates inequality between the sexes and which is totally devoid of democracy."

Ms Amara, who is also a prominent women's rights campaigner, said she made no distinction between the veil and the burqa, describing both as symbols of oppression for women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7509339.stm

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Muslim woman? ... how about ex-muslim kuffar woman instead?

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)
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crayon
07-17-2008, 01:17 AM
They should really start handing out handbooks with citizen applications.
"The Ideal French Woman" and "The Ideal French Man" would be a great help, I'm sure.
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Amadeus85
07-17-2008, 12:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Comments:

This means that Muslim states like Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco Yemen, and other Islamic states, can revoke the citizenship of their Christian and Jewish populations because they have never assimilated.

In other words, unless Christians and Jews living in the Muslim World start to dress and cover like Muslims (of course Muslims must first start to dress like Muslims) and denounce the aggression and violence by Western nations and Israel against Muslims, they will be stripped of their citizenship and their residency terminated!
It's diference because that woman in the article was an immigrant from Morocco aplyying or citizenship. While the christians living in Middle East they live there since about 2 thousand years i think and they are already citizens.
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adeeb
07-17-2008, 01:30 PM
i hope and pray for the woman, May Allah help her

sad to say:

France country for every religion, no more!!
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Whatsthepoint
07-17-2008, 11:52 PM
She's married to a french citizen, she hasn't done anything illegal so she should get the citizenship.
I do however think a country has every right to expel or deny citizenship to people like her, if you don't integrate or even refuse to, leave!
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niler
07-18-2008, 10:19 AM
My question is, from what aspects of the islamic religion can we judge Islam 2b radical?

wearing a burqa?..Serving ur hussie n kids... treating them with respect n love........?

I think the defination of gender equality should be made clear...

No one can deny that men n women were creatd differently by Allah, n trying to make one do things she/he can not do is dangerous.. u can not cut using a fork and use a knife for something else. that would not achieve wat u wanted.

Same with gender equality..WE WERE NOT CREATED EQUAL N WE WILL NEVER BE EQUAL,BUT THAT'S not to say one sex is better than the other!!!
Going back to the fork-knife issue, we all best have a purpose and use and attempting to change that can be disastrous!!
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Tania
07-18-2008, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by niler
..Serving ur hussie n kids... treating them with respect n love........?
May be its something related exactly to this :-[ She has no job, so if the hussie dissapear, the social security should give her money . You have to be citizen to get money.
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Uthman
07-18-2008, 09:25 PM
A Muslim woman too orthodox for France

LA VERRIÈRE, France: When Faiza Silmi applied for French citizenship she was worried that her fluent French was not quite perfect enough or that her Moroccan upbringing would pose a problem.

"I would never have imagined that they would turn me down because of what I choose to wear," Silmi said, her hazel eyes looking out of the narrow slit in her niqab, an Islamic facial veil that is among three flowing layers of turquoise, blue and black that cover her body from head to toe.

But last month, France's highest administrative court upheld a decision to deny Silmi, 32, citizenship on the ground that her "radical" practice of Islam was incompatible with French values like equality of the sexes.

It was the first time that a French court had judged somebody's capacity to be assimilated into France based on private religious practice, taking laïcité - the country's strict concept of secularism - from the public sphere into the home.

The case has sharpened the focus on the delicate balance between the tradition of Republican secularism and the freedom of religion guaranteed under the French Constitution - and how that balance might be shifting. It comes four years after a law banning religious garb in public schools was reinforced. And it comes only weeks after a court in Lille annulled a marriage on request of a Muslim husband whose wife had lied about being a virgin. (The government subsequently demanded a review of the court decision.)

So far, citizenship has only been denied on religious grounds in France when applicants were believed to be close to fundamentalist groups.

The ruling has received almost unequivocal support across the political spectrum, including among many Muslims. Fadela Amara, the French minister for urban affairs, called Silmi's niqab "a prison" and a "straitjacket."

"It is not a religious insignia but the insignia of a totalitarian political project that promotes inequality between the sexes and is totally lacking in democracy," said Amara, herself a practicing Muslim of Algerian descent.

François Hollande, the leader of the opposition Socialist Party, called the ruling "a good application of the law," while Jacques Myard, the conservative lawmaker elected in the constituency where Silmi lives, demanded that face-covering veils be outlawed.

In an interview, Silmi told of her shock and embarrassment when she found herself unexpectedly in the public eye. Since July 12, when Le Monde first reported the court decision, her story has been endlessly dissected on newspaper front pages and in late-night television talk shows.

"They say I am under my husband's command and that I am a recluse," Silmi said during an hourlong conversation in her apartment in La Verrière, a small town 30 minutes southwest of Paris. At home, when there are no men present, she lifts her facial veil and exposes a smiling, heart-shaped face.

"They say I wear the niqab because my husband told me so," she said. "I want to tell them: It is my choice. I take care of my children and I leave the house when I please. I have my own car. I do the shopping on my own. Yes, I am a practicing Muslim, I am orthodox. But is that not my right?"

Silmi declined to have her photograph taken, saying that both she and her husband were uncomfortable with the idea.

Silmi married Karim, a French national of Moroccan descent, eight years ago and moved to France with him. Their four children, three boys and a girl, aged from 2 to 7, were all born in France. In 2004, Silmi applied for French citizenship, "because I wanted to have the same nationality as my husband and my children." But her request was denied a year later because of "insufficient assimilation" into France.

She appealed, invoking the right to religious freedom. But on June 25 the Council of State, the judicial institution with final say on disputes between individuals and the public administration, upheld the ruling.

"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," said the ruling.

Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave, the government commissioner who reported to the Council of State, said Simli's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."

But everything is not as Western cliché might have it in the Silmi household. As she recounts her story, it is her husband who serves a steaming pot of mint tea and chocolate cookies. Silmi herself collected this interviewer from the rail station in her car. She does not wear her facial veil while driving and says that she also lifts it when she picks up her children at the local public school.

"What hurts me most is that people who don't know me judge me like this," she said. Journalists got many facts wrong, she said, starting with the number of her children and ending with the assertion that she refused to take off her veil when she was interviewed for her citizenship. "It is simply not true," she said.

M'hammed Henniche of the Union of Muslim Associations in the Seine-Saint-Denis district north of Paris, fears that the ruling may open the door to what he considers ever more arbitrary interpretations of what constitutes "radical" Islam.

"What is it going to be tomorrow? The annual pilgrimage to Mecca? The daily prayer?" said Henniche. "This sets a dangerous precedent. Religion, so far as it is personal, should be kept out of these decisions."

In one sign of the nature of some of the criteria used to evaluate Silmi's fitness to become French, the government commissioner approvingly noted in her report that she was treated by a male gynecologist during her pregnancies.

The Silmis say they live by a literalist interpretation of the Koran. They do not like the term Salafism, although they say literally it means following the way of the prophet Muhammad and his companions.

"But today 'Salafist' has come to mean political Islam; people who don't like the government and who approve of violence call themselves Salafists. We have nothing to do with them," said Karim Silm, a soft-spoken man with a visible prayer mark on his forehead and a religious beard.

His wife explains that in 2000 she decided to wear the niqab, a dress code typically found on the Arabian Peninsula, because in her eyes her traditional Moroccan attire - a flowing djelaba with head scarf - was not modest enough. "I don't like to draw men's looks," she said. "I want to belong to my husband and my husband only."

She has given herself until September to decide whether to challenge the ruling.

France is home to nearly five million Muslims, roughly half of whom are

French citizens. Criteria for granting French citizenship include "assimilation," which normally focuses on how well the candidate speaks French.

Lately, though, President, Nicolas Sarkozy has stressed the importance of "integration" into French life. Part of his tougher immigration policy is a new law to make foreigners who want to join their families take an exam on French values as well as French language before leaving their countries.

Karim, a former bus driver who says he is finding it hard to get work because of his beard, dreams of moving his family to Morocco or Saudi Arabia. "We don't feel welcome here," he said. "I am French but I can't really say that I am proud of it right now."

Source
Reply

mediadave
07-18-2008, 11:25 PM
Karim, a former bus driver who says he is finding it hard to get work because of his beard, dreams of moving his family to Morocco or Saudi Arabia. "We don't feel welcome here," he said. "I am French but I can't really say that I am proud of it right now."
Gosh, they'll find it hard to get Saudi citizenship:

http://www.justlanded.com/english/Sa...ts/Citizenship
Your only route to becoming a naturalised citizen is by marriage to a national; even this, however, doesn’t guarantee citizenship, particularly for non-Muslims.

In exceptional circumstances only, the King might grant citizenship to a foreigner who has provided outstanding service to the state over a number of years.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?art=1760&l=en

Riyadh (AsiaNews) – The Saudi government approved an amendment to the Nationality Law making it harder for foreigners resident in the Kingdom to obtain Saudi citizenship. The law now requires ten years of residence instead of five.

According to the secretary of the ministry of the interior, Naser Bin Hamad al-Hanaya, the law also requires applicants to have professional skills
Reply

highlander
07-19-2008, 12:22 AM
I think what Im gonna say is a bit off topic...but I am trying to make a comparation.
A few years back a friend of mine- a 30 something year old woman worked a while in a muslim country. After that, her company shifted to Israel. After another few years she wanted to go to meet her beloved mulsim man (with whom she was pregnant at the time she departed from the islamic country, and afterwars had a baby with) in the first muslim country- which she was not able. She was simply not given visa because she had the stamp and visa of Israel on her passport.

Coming back to topic, hoping that this lady(the one from france) is atleast going to be allowed to stay with her loved ones, each country has its rules and customs, if we want to stay there, then we have to give in a litle inorder to fit atleast a lil bit in the community.

Anyway this article seems like another reason for propaganda which doesnt do more than to stir hatred between the french people and minorities.
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
07-19-2008, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by highlander
She was simply not given visa because she had the stamp and visa of Israel on her passport.
the same happens with other countries and with different nationals...

If your going to use examples heres one...my bro didn't get a visa for india yet another one of mine was allowed in.

i'm sure if any iranian wanted to go to palestine to go to masjid al aqsa ill tell you now he wouldn't be allowed in the country.
Reply

highlander
07-19-2008, 08:05 AM
isnt that so silly? its really sad all this kind of discrimination....too bad.

in the end noone can blame france for picking whom they want as french citizens...though as i said it is obvious in case that the woman already has a family and a life there.
Reply

highlander
07-19-2008, 08:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by truemuslim
Lool yah thats sooo cool.



I hate french people anyways. but then again i hate greek, british, romans, etc etc (except any muslim ones:rolleyes:)

i hate them. why would they ever think this will eever benifit them at all?? :thumbs_do
When I read posts like this one I cannot stop worrying about the future of menkind. It is for people who feel this way- muslims who hate westerners for having different set of social and moral principles and because of westerners who whenever seen a mulsim start screaming "terrorist" and shoot as sight ( see uk troubles last year).

2. truemuslim, the blood in my veins is of one of the nationalities you mentioned hating. I am married with a muslim and my family is a peaceful and loving one. Never been any troubles related to religion, hatred or any discrimination based on these kind of things.

I hope again, that you too when you grow older, find the understanding and the respect twards other nationalities and religions since there is no need for hating eachother on basis like belief, nationality, skin color etc, but we should simply appreciate and like/dislike, hate/love people for what they are in particular and the way we interact with them.
Reply

truemuslim
07-19-2008, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by highlander
When I read posts like this one I cannot stop worrying about the future of menkind. It is for people who feel this way- muslims who hate westerners for having different set of social and moral principles and because of westerners who whenever seen a mulsim start screaming "terrorist" and shoot as sight ( see uk troubles last year).

2. truemuslim, the blood in my veins is of one of the nationalities you mentioned hating. I am married with a muslim and my family is a peaceful and loving one. Never been any troubles related to religion, hatred or any discrimination based on these kind of things.

I hope again, that you too when you grow older, find the understanding and the respect twards other nationalities and religions since there is no need for hating eachother on basis like belief, nationality, skin color etc, but we should simply appreciate and like/dislike, hate/love people for what they are in particular and the way we interact with them.
i meant the racist ones that never look into religion, but look at the crazy people of the religons. :embarrass
Reply

Fishman
07-19-2008, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by truemuslim
I hate ... romans
Caesar will have your head, Gaul! :D


:w:
Reply

chacha_jalebi
07-19-2008, 10:48 PM
^ that posts signifies these words ...

OFF TOPIC!!

:threadclo

if anyone minds contact mr nobody, on 123 fake street, :p
Reply

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