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Uthman
07-18-2008, 07:48 PM
A Muslim who returned from Pakistan with files on weapons, explosives and poisons has told a court childhood anger fuelled an interest in "jihad".

Aabid Khan, 23, from Bradford, West Yorkshire, cited the killing of Muslims by the Russians in Chechnya as an issue that upset him from as young as 12.

He went on to collect material on pyrotechnics, jihad and war - found on a laptop when he was detained in 2006.

Mr Khan and three others deny charges of possessing terror-related documents.

The 23-year-old was arrested when he returned to Manchester airport from Pakistan.

Also on trial are Sultan Muhammad, 23, from Bradford, Ahmed Sulieman, 30, from Woolwich, south-east London, and Hammaad Munshi, 18, from Dewsbury, West Yorkshire.

They deny 13 counts of possessing articles for a purpose connected with terrorism and making a record of information likely to be useful in terrorism between November 2005 and June 2006.

'Relatives packed suitcase'


On Wednesday Mr Khan told the court that by the age of 12 he was so concerned about the suffering of fellow believers overseas he regularly accessed internet news bulletins about them.

"I felt upset and angry with the onslaught against innocent women and children in countries such as Russia," he told London's Southwark Crown Court.

"The Russian army massacred quite a lot of Muslims in Chechnya. It is still going on today."

As he grew older he downloaded articles on pyrotechnics and "items about war", together with an "analysis of September 11" and "various reports on Islamic jurisprudence".

He joined online forums to swap views about the "tactics and strategies" used by Muslim fighters. Details included the weapons they used and profiles of the individuals involved.

The more I think about my goal in life the more vivid my goals become. Whether it is exploding prisons or freeing [Muslim prisoners]... Let it be a martyrdom operation


Letter to Aabid Khan from his first wife Saima

By the time he was 21 he had hoarded a large amount of material, some of which came from CDs handed to him outside mosques and after conferences, the court heard.

It was all recovered from a laptop hard drive found in his luggage after he was detained.

More material - much of it deleted - was allegedly retrieved from an external memory device, which had been sent to him by a friend in Britain to help him set up a second-hand phone retail business in Pakistan.

Mr Khan told the court that because he received the drive just hours before he left for Britain, he did not have a chance to see what it contained.

It was only in his luggage because "lady family members" did his packing, he said.

Prosecutors have said the contents of his luggage "showed he was dedicated to the pursuit of a violent holy war against anyone, any person or any country which did not believe in his religious faith".

During a second day of giving evidence, Mr Khan - who has married twice - was asked about the contents of a large Filofax found in his suitcase.

They included a "personal letter" sent to him by his first wife Saima from Canada, where she campaigned for the release of Muslim prisoners "in such places as Guantanamo Bay".

It said: "The more I think about my goal in life the more vivid my goals become. Whether it is exploding prisons or freeing them somehow I know I have to play a role in it. Let it be a martyrdom operation."

When defence QC Abbas Lakha asked his client to explain, Mr Khan said: "She feels strongly about the issue with Muslim prisoners... She was upset."

He went on to say she was not serious about becoming a martyr but had said it out of "desperation".

'Mount the attack'


Mr Khan was also asked about fashion designs found in the personal organiser, which included hoods, Velcro straps, string draws and numerous pockets on the chest, legs and arms.

"This was ghetto clothing but with an Islamic theme to it," said Mr Khan.

A further entry in his diary read: "One cell - stake out target; one cell - acquired equipment; one cell - mount the attack."

Mr Khan told the court the "military or guerrilla language" he had used was a reference to online attacks designed to "crash" anti-Islamic websites.

He added that computer "hacking" was "another of my interests".

Jurors had previously heard he visited Balakot in Pakistan which hosted a training camp for terrorist group Jaishe-Mohammed.

He said he went to Pakistan in 2006 to sell phones and help earthquake survivors.

The trial was adjourned until Thursday.

Source
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Keltoi
07-18-2008, 09:50 PM
This sort of situation sounds similar to the "school shooting" scenario. When very serious events are taking place it is not a good idea to have an "interest" in terror related groups or strategies. The authorities have no choice but to act in a situation like this. The same way they do when a kid posts a "death list" or a blog about bombing a school. Perhaps he didn't realize what kind of trouble he was getting himself into, but then again he might have been a serious terror threat down the road.
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Fishman
07-18-2008, 09:58 PM
:sl:
I think this is kind of getting to the heart of the problem really, conservatives need to stop saying that terrorists are just jealous and hate their freedoms, and start realising that terrorism is caused by political grieviances, whether they be imagined ('War on Islam' conspiracies) or real (the plight of Chechnya or Palestinians).
:w:
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aadil77
07-18-2008, 10:22 PM
this guy sounds a bit like me, except without all the materials and stuff. but I hope he didn't intend on blowing himself up and other civilians! who wouldn't want to join the mujahideen, after all the crap goin on?
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Keltoi
07-18-2008, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I think this is kind of getting to the heart of the problem really, conservatives need to stop saying that terrorists are just jealous and hate their freedoms, and start realising that terrorism is caused by political grieviances, whether they be imagined ('War on Islam' conspiracies) or real (the plight of Chechnya or Palestinians).
:w:
Should it make any difference what their motivations are? Every killer has motivations, whether they are political or personal.
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Fishman
07-18-2008, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Should it make any difference what their motivations are? Every killer has motivations, whether they are political or personal.
:sl:
Yes, if they want to stop terrorism they need to understand how and why people do it, rather than just increasing security measures endlessly. Covering up a problem with a high rate of arrests doesn't make it go away.
:w:
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Keltoi
07-18-2008, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Yes, if they want to stop terrorism they need to understand how and why people do it, rather than just increasing security measures endlessly. Covering up a problem with a high rate of arrests doesn't make it go away.
:w:
This is a two-way street. There are plenty of people out there who see Muslims as the enemy, and they have their own motivations for feeling that way. "Islamophobia", which is the popular catch phrase these days, is by and large a product of the very mentality you pointed to. That many Muslims have no allegiance to the Western nations they inhabit, and will use terrorism as long as their own political beliefs aren't adhered to. That is not a phenomenon that instills much trust between the non-Muslim and Muslim communities.

As to your overall point, it does have merit. Western governments should be more mindful of the changing dynamics inside their countries. When issues arise involving Muslim peoples abroad, they should be more careful as to how they address it and what policies they embrace. However, that doesn't mean Western governments should feel obligated to cater to Muslim political sensibilities at every turn. Especially under threat of terrorist activities.
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mediadave
07-18-2008, 11:18 PM
What I don't understand, is why the issue of Darfur (ie, the genocide of muslims in Darfur) never angers anyone? The ICC news link has almost dropped off the page without a reply!
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Fishman
07-18-2008, 11:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
What I don't understand, is why the issue of Darfur (ie, the genocide of muslims in Darfur) never angers anyone? The ICC news link has almost dropped off the page without a reply!
:sl:
Muslim killing Muslim doesn't get the hate reaction that Jew or American killing Muslim does?
:w:
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Keltoi
07-18-2008, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Muslim killing Muslim doesn't get the hate reaction that Jew or American killing Muslim does?
:w:
True, but that exists inside of every "community" for lack of a better term. Americans don't get nearly as upset over the number of Americans killing Americans as they do one American getting killed in Mexico. It's more of a human problem. We don't get nearly as upset when our own "people" kill each other as we do when another group does it.
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Keltoi
07-19-2008, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave
What I don't understand, is why the issue of Darfur (ie, the genocide of muslims in Darfur) never angers anyone? The ICC news link has almost dropped off the page without a reply!
Besides what Fishman stated, Darfur isn't exactly a recognizable commodity. Sort of like Rwanda. Almost everyone has heard of it now, but at the time you would be hard pressed to find anyone who knew that was even a country, much less a country stricken by genocide.
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The_Prince
07-19-2008, 03:34 AM
these guys are amazing, sheesh, u wanna be a soldier well AVOID BEING CAUGHT AND BEING SILLY, its like watching dumb and dumber with these guys who keep saying they wanna be soldiers and martyrs and just end up getting arrested with all these files and 'plans' on their pc.

these guys are jokes and think its a game, i mean just look at how he writes:

A further entry in his diary read: "One cell - stake out target; one cell - acquired equipment; one cell - mount the attack."

that sums it all up, give him 25 years in jail just for being stupid.
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Uthman
07-19-2008, 11:06 AM
I think the article really strengthens my own belief that Muslims don't become terrorists just because they think Islam wants them to. Their actions are fuelled by what they perceive to be injustices done against Muslims and they want revenge. Is their anger justified? Maybe. Are their actions? No.
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KAding
07-19-2008, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I think the article really strengthens my own belief that Muslims don't become terrorists just because they think Islam wants them to. Their actions are fuelled by what they perceive to be injustices done against Muslims and they want revenge. Is their anger justified? Maybe. Are their actions? No.
Largely yes. However, what they consider a reasonable "grievance" and "injustice" is determined by an Islamic worldview and Islamic beliefs. The only reason why a British Muslim gets all outraged about what happens to some people in Chechnya is their sense of Islamic brotherhood. I also think Islam to some degree determines how they respond to these perceived "injustices".
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Uthman
07-19-2008, 12:50 PM
Hi KAding,

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
The only reason why a British Muslim gets all outraged about what happens to some people in Chechnya is their sense of Islamic brotherhood.
Fair enough, I can accept that.

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I also think Islam to some degree determines how they respond to these perceived "injustices".
How so?

Regards
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KAding
07-19-2008, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
How so?

Regards
I was hoping you wouldn't ask ;).

Well, I think Islam is quite explicit about a Muslims duty to defend their religion and their religious brethren. This IMHO means that Muslims are more likely to not merely be "outraged" but more likely to also undertake action. And while I most certainly don't believe Islam to be a violent religion, it isn't pacifist either. Fighting in the cause of Allah is widely seen as a noble enterprise and that may include violent means. It's the only explanation why there are, for example, Dutch Muslims of Moroccan decent who take a train to Chechnya to join the fight there, despite them not having any kind of Chechen links. It is something they believe Islam asks them to do. They believe Allah will reward them for it. Had they not gotten that impression from studying Islam they would probably not have that zeal to join a fight half a world away.

This is not unique to Islam of course. I think the situation is very much reminiscent of, for example, the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s, when communist volunteers from all of the Western world flocked to Spain to help their comrades in the fight against the fascists. IMHO that is an example of the same kind of ideological zeal as we see in more fundamentalist Islamic circles. Nationalism can also awaken such fervor and willingness to take up arms, but it is by definition limited to a more narrow view of who are "brothers" worth fighting for. You will find Americans who will be willing to fight for fellow Americans, but at the same time, in current Christianity you will be hard pressed to find Christians who are willing to take up arms to defend their brethren in, say, Africa. It simply doesn't have this internationalist zeal IMHO, not anymore at least.

I hope that made some sense :D.
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Uthman
07-19-2008, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I was hoping you wouldn't ask ;).
I know the feeling. :D

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Well, I think Islam is quite explicit about a Muslims duty to defend their religion and their religious brethren. This IMHO means that Muslims are more likely to not merely be "outraged" but more likely to also undertake action. And while I most certainly don't believe Islam to be a violent religion, it isn't pacifist either. Fighting in the cause of Allah is widely seen as a noble enterprise and that may include violent means. It's the only explanation why there are, for example, Dutch Muslims of Moroccan decent who take a train to Chechnya to join the fight there, despite them not having any kind of Chechen links. It is something they believe Islam asks them to do. They believe Allah will reward them for it. Had they not gotten that impression from studying Islam they would probably not have that zeal to join a fight half a world away.

This is not unique to Islam of course. I think the situation is very much reminiscent of, for example, the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s, when communist volunteers from all of the Western world flocked to Spain to help their comrades in the fight against the fascists. IMHO that is an example of the same kind of ideological zeal as we see in more fundamentalist Islamic circles. Nationalism can also awaken such fervor and willingness to take up arms, but it is by definition limited to a more narrow view of who are "brothers" worth fighting for. You will find Americans who will be willing to fight for fellow Americans, but at the same time, in current Christianity you will be hard pressed to find Christians who are willing to take up arms to defend their brethren in, say, Africa. It simply doesn't have this internationalist zeal IMHO, not anymore at least.

I hope that made some sense :D.
It certainly did make sense to me. I thought you meant that Islam can, to a degree, influence Muslims to respond using terrorism. In this regard, I would say that Islam can do so insofar as the verses of the Qur'an can be misinterpreted.
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S1aveofA11ah
07-19-2008, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I know the feeling. :D



It certainly did make sense to me. I thought you meant that Islam can, to a degree, influence Muslims to respond using terrorism. In this regard, I would say that Islam can do so insofar as the verses of the Qur'an can be misinterpreted.
Its not Islam then is it if the verses have been misinterpreted!. Allah says in the Quran : "..and this day I have perfected for you your Religion - Islam..." (paraphrased). Islam will never influence any person to do injustices ever. Its the Muslims at fault who try to then 'pin it' on Islam not the other way round!.
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Uthman
07-19-2008, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Its not Islam then is it if the verses have been misinterpreted!. Allah says in the Quran : "..and this day I have perfected for you your Religion - Islam..." (paraphrased). Islam will never influence any person to do injustices ever. Its the Muslims at fault who try to then 'pin it' on Islam not the other way round!.
Yeah, that's true.
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KAding
07-20-2008, 10:26 PM
Well, from my non-Muslim perspective it seems that Islamic scriptures might just be too easy to misinterpret! Mind you, I obviously don't believe the Qu'ran or the Hadith are without faults and without contradictions. I understand Muslims wouldn't agree with that.
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Uthman
07-21-2008, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Well, from my non-Muslim perspective it seems that Islamic scriptures might just be too easy to misinterpret!
I can understand it from your point of view, but I disagree (unsurprisingly!).

Each verse in the Qur'an was revealed in a certain context and situation. Therefore, each verse must be understood within that context. This requires in-depth historical knowledge as well as Arabic knowledge. That is knowledge that you and I both lack. One needs to be well qualified to interpret the verses of the Qur'an. The problem arises when people start making their own interpretations willy nilly (if you will pardon the expression).
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fantaxxy_moon
07-21-2008, 07:02 AM
killing is not a nice thing to do and it's against the islamic religion ....
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