A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt)

[ajazz]

Assalamualykum



suppose I tell you that there exist a thing which you cannot see, touch, taste, hear or feel, even with the most sensitive and advanced instruments known to man it cannot be detected and if it is standing in front of you , you can walk straight through it , also it can pass through doors and walls actually it can pass through anything.
Can such a thing exist?
And by the way I’m not talking of ghosts!


And yes such a thing does exist!

What I’m talking about is known as dark matter and nearly 70% or more of our universe is made up of dark matter!

And this is what the scientists are calming and it is result of observation and logical reasoning.


“The existence of this theoretical substance was first proposed in the 1930s by Swiss astrophysicist Fritz Zwicky.

By studying the rotation of a group of galaxies called the Coma Cluster, Zwicky calculated that the visible mass of the galaxies was 400 times less than the mass needed to explain their gravitational motion.”
http://tinyurl.com/6bjjqb


NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter
“These observations provide the strongest evidence yet that most of the matter in the universe is dark.”

http://tinyurl.com/emvb5


So is it logical and rational to believe that god exists?



We know universe exists and it is about 13.7 billion years old.

Hence it must have had beginning and anything that ages and have beginning must have been non-existing and hence it was created or Caused into existence
Also there is arrow of time ie it travels in one direction only and is irreversible
So there must have been time when it was zero and as we know matter without time cannot exist and time without matter is meaningless.

The most widely accepted theory about our universe is the big bang which state that universe started with singularity but where this singularity came from?

Other theories have come up and one of it states that universe is cyclic.
In this cyclic model, two parallel orbifold planes or M-branes collide periodically in a higher dimensional space, a big crunch followed immediately by a big bang.
And this cycle is infinite and the current cycle is about 14 billions years old.

The question is if universe is infinite then how can you say current cycle is 14 billion years old since dividing infinity will give you undefined answer.

And if you say cycle, it means division And how do you define past present and future And if you say the cycle keeps adding till infinity then there must be first cycle and it had a beginning.
True Infinity can only occur if time is zero since without time there is no motion and without motion there is no matter therefore matter cannot exist for infinity.
Also the universe is flat and therefore there will be no big crunch.


There is another theory known as string theory.
Lot of time and energy as well as money has been spent on this theory but this theory has not produce a single meaningful result in 30 years and this has frustrated many scientists so much that many of them are turning against it and even calling it science fiction.

“Stanford math professor Keith Devlin talks about two new books that call into question the entire idea of string theory”

http://tinyurl.com/67vyv6

“Last summer in Aspen, Dr. Schwarz and Dr. Green (of Cambridge) cut a cake decorated with "20th Anniversary of the First Revolution Started in Aspen," as they and other theorists celebrated the anniversary of their big breakthrough. But even as they ate cake and drank wine, the string theorists admitted that after 20 years, they still did not know how to test string theory, or even what it meant.”

“Dr. Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, called string theory "a colossal failure." “

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/science/07stri.html


The only theory that has some observable evidence is big bang theory

As is evident some scientists are trying to present theories that eliminate the beginning and hence God can be taken out of the equation.

But no matter how hard you try you cannot avoid the beginning.



Einstein ultimately accepted to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power.”.


Since we now know universe had a beginning it must not have existed.
So the question what was there before the beginning is not correct because it implies that the cause of the beginning no longer exist after the beginning.

The correct question is what caused the beginning?

Since universe was in a state of non existence there must be something that caused it into existence.

And the obvious answer is God, but saying God is responsible is not enough.

Just as dark matter even though is undetectable but we do know that it is invisible and it has gravitational influence similarly we must describe the entity that caused the beginning.

Since time was also nonexistent this entity is outside time dimension and since matter of which our universe is made of cannot exist without time this entity is not made from this matter.

Since this entity is outside time it truly exists infinitely and not our universe as some suggest.


We need definition of god because there are dozens of religions claiming dozens of gods so which god is true?

There is only one god which fits the criteria and that is Allah (swt)

So let’s define God as in Islam.


[Quran_chapter 112]

1] SAY: "He is the One God:
2] God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being
3]"He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
4]"and there is nothing that could be compared with Him

As already stated the entity is not made of any matter contained in this universe, no false vacuum, no quantum field, no energy strings,
We cannot comprehend how Allah (swt) looks.

This is really very clever without describing how Allah (swt) looks we can still know a lot about him
Allah (swt) has at least 99 names and attributes.

Some of them are:

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Haqq meaning

The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.

In our universe there is no such thing as infinity there are things we call infinite because it is beyond our capacity to measure or count, these things may be indefinite but are not TRUE INFINITE
Because there is arrow of time and time never stops and it goes in one direction only
It is irreversible
A thing is infinite only when it is outside of time since it has no beginning and no end only such thing is infinite and only a thing or entity that is infinite i.e. it always existed can Cause beginning of our universe which is finite.

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Awwal meaning

The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Akhir meaning

The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.

Since Allah (swt) has no end and no beginning he is outside of time and he truly exist
He is true infinite.

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Khaaliq meaning

The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.

We know that absolute nothing cannot exist, but something can come out of nothing
Remember when our universe never existed only Allah (swt) (entity) existed because he is TRULY INFINITE but we also know that the Allah (swt) is not part of our universe and the matter which our universe is made of, is not derived from Allah (swt) because it cannot exist without time, hence Allah (swt) created our universe out of nothing.

I must admit that I m not qualified person to make a statement such as “something can come out of nothing”

But there is one man who thinks he is qualified to make such a statement
(Perhaps the world’s most famous cosmologist)
Stephen Hawking Says Universe Created from Nothing

"Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

http://tinyurl.com/2lt8bt


He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
{Chapter #21, Verse #56}

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
(Chapter #2, Verse #117)




(Truly Allah (swt) alone is greatest and all possible praises to him)



Allah (swt) is also known as Az-Zaahir meaning

The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.

Allah (swt) is outside space and time

Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Mateen meaning

The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.

Since Allah (swt) is infinite his power is also infinite

Now it has became evident and can be reasonably concluded that only an entity such as Allah (swt) is capable of creating our universe.


I would like to share some interesting verses form Quran regarding creation




Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? [Al-Quraan 21:30]


“general relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity.”

http://tinyurl.com/38s5gt


“If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.

WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.”

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


Professor Joseph Silk
Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom

Joseph Silk: No. We do not know whether the Universe is finite or not. To give you an example, imagine the geometry of the Universe in two dimensions as a plane. It is flat, and a plane is normally infinite. But you can take a sheet of paper [an 'infinite' sheet of paper] and you can roll it up and make a cylinder, and you can roll the cylinder again and make a torus [like the shape of a doughnut]. The surface of the torus is also spatially flat, but it is finite. So you have two possibilities for a flat Universe: one infinite, like a plane, and one finite, like a torus, which is also flat.

http://tinyurl.com/5lj29q

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfill it
{Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #104}

Allah-o-akhbar!


now if you do open up to the idea that may be god exist and Allah (swt ) indeed is true and only one god capable of creating our universe than another set of questions arises,
That I will try to answer in my next post. Inshallah

(All the true things I have said are from Allah (swt) and any mistake or unintentional wrong information I may have given is from me and I ask his forgiveness. Allah (swt) alone knows true meaning of everything)

[Grace Seeker]

ajazz, I have pondered many of these same things as a Christian. Isn't it interesting that you see them pointing to Allah and I see them pointing to God. (No doubt Hindus could probably say something similar as well.) Perhaps our faiths are not so different as some would have people believe.

[Tornado]

Just as dark matter even though is undetectable but we do know that it is invisible and it has gravitational influence similarly we must describe the entity that caused the beginning.

Since time was also nonexistent this entity is outside time dimension and since matter of which our universe is made of cannot exist without time this entity is not made from this matter.

Since this entity is outside time it truly exists infinitely and not our universe as some suggest.


We need definition of god because there are dozens of religions claiming dozens of gods so which god is true?

There is only one god which fits the criteria and that is Allah (swt)

Is dark matter undetectable? I highly doubt it. Last thing I heard about was that it was some ionized oxygen. You are making a connection that isn't there. You didn't provide any proof, just statements. Only Allah fits the criteria? No, all gods do. Anyways, if there was ANY evidence for god, it would be in favour of a deistic god, not a personal one.

[Azy]

If it's undetectable how exactly did they notice it's existence?
It has a gravitational effect on the matter around it and this can be detected.

There was a point when microwaves and neutrinos were undetectable, but that says more about the limitations of our technology than the nature of the phenomena in question.

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[ajazz]

ajazz, I have pondered many of these same things as a Christian. Isn't it interesting that you see them pointing to Allah and I see them pointing to God. (No doubt Hindus could probably say something similar as well.) Perhaps our faiths are not so different as some would have people believe.

Assalamulykum

just any god will not do, you must define god
what are his attributes, this god must make logical sense
to construct a building you need an architect not a painter or a musician

We Muslims believe in the same god that the Christians believe minus the ghost and the holy son (human god)

the Hindus may claim their gods are true, but tell me


"Brahma, the creator had five mind-born sons. Many fathers may be able to sympathize with Brahma, for the father of creation too was dissatisfied with his sons. None of them showed any promise, the typical progenitor felt. He contemplated on Siva for solution. Siva himself appeared and told him He was his son. Siva then assumed the ardhanareeswara form."

http://tinyurl.com/5p74yx


" Brahma, the creator of all beings and all things, was fascinated by the beauty of his own created Sarasvati, and thereby his daughter. To escape her father's notice, Sarasvati turned herself into a female deer. But Brahma did not fail to take note of it and converted himself into a male deer and began chasing her to have sex with her. The moral being as Shiva was, he did not approve a father molesting his own daughter. He did not fail to notice this immorality of the deer turned Brahma when he saw him chasing Sarasvati disguised as she-deer and to chastise him, he, the great archer as he was, shot at Brahma, the male deer. To save himself from Shiva's arrows Brahma returned to his real form but not before he had incurred some loss. He had lost one of his five heads."
:omg:
http://tinyurl.com/5za5hj



now tell me honestly do such gods make any logical sense?

[Grace Seeker]

Tornado and Azy I'm not sure whether you understand what Dark Matter actually is (or is not): Dark Matter -- an introduction

First, dark matter is not something that physicists have (or even) actually detected with instrumentation. Rather it something whose existence is inferred from observing gravitational effects on visible matter. One of the problems with "detecting" dark matter is that it doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force in the visible world that we can observe.

Light travels in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force such as gravity which then sucks it in toward the source of that gravitational pull. But because of the high speed of light, with the exception of black holes light generally continues on, just altered from its original path. These shifts in light are one of the means used by astrophysicists to calculate the size and distance of objects in the universe. The only problem is that they were noticing that the effects of gravity were larger than the total mass of what is observable. Hence there must be another source for this gravity that exists, but cannot be seen. And the name for this unobservable matter is dark matter. It certainly isn't ionized oxygen for that would be observable matter.

from Wikipedia
At present, the most common view is that dark matter is primarily non-baryonic, made of one or more elementary particles other than the usual electrons, protons, neutrons, and known neutrinos. The most commonly proposed particles are axions, sterile neutrinos, and WIMPs (Weakly Interacting Massive Particles, including neutralinos). None of these are part of the standard model of particle physics, but they can arise in extensions to the standard model. Many supersymmetric models naturally give rise to stable WIMPs in the form of neutralinos. Heavy, sterile neutrinos exist in extensions to the standard model that explain the small neutrino mass through the seesaw mechanism.

[Grace Seeker]

Assalamulykum

just any god will not do, you must define god

Point being that you didn't. The god you presented could have been any god by any religion or even one accepted by agnostics.

You didn't define god as Allah by the same set of arguments you used for postulating the presence of some being indiscernable in nature, beyond our experience. In declaring this god to be Allah it was just that, a declaration. Something you believe, but offered as a conclusion without substantiation.

[ajazz]

assalamulykum

guys! the point is not about dark matter being detected or not the point is the conclusion drawn from logical and rational thinking

dark matter,when it was first proposed it was based on observational evidence

.

[Skavau]

Dark Matter is completely irrelevant to any of this, so I will just skip to the points that actually have a point.

Hence it must have had beginning and anything that ages and have beginning must have been non-existing and hence it was created or Caused into existence
Also there is arrow of time ie it travels in one direction only and is irreversible
So there must have been time when it was zero and as we know matter without time cannot exist and time without matter is meaningless.

This universe had a beginning. We generally call it the Big Bang.

We have no reason to believe that there was simply 'nothing' prior to the Big Bang. Indeed, you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang because you claim that God existed prior to it and you claim that God created the universe.

So we can all safely rule out there ultimately needing to be a universal origin for everything.

Other theories have come up and one of it states that universe is cyclic.
In this cyclic model, two parallel orbifold planes or M-branes collide periodically in a higher dimensional space, a big crunch followed immediately by a big bang.
And this cycle is infinite and the current cycle is about 14 billions years old.

The question is if universe is infinite then how can you say current cycle is 14 billion years old since dividing infinity will give you undefined answer.

You have just committed the fallacy of composition. Look it up.

Einstein ultimately accepted to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power.”.

Albert Einstein was a scientific pantheist. I do not know why you are using him as a recommend concerning evidence for the existence of Allah.

Since we now know universe had a beginning it must not have existed.
So the question what was there before the beginning is not correct because it implies that the cause of the beginning no longer exist after the beginning.

This makes no coherent sense. This universe having a beginning is not the same as the universe had a beginning. We have excellent reason to believe that there was something prior to the Big Bang.

[quote=ajazz]
Since universe was in a state of non existence there must be something that caused it into existence.

And the obvious answer is God, but saying God is responsible is not enough.[/qote]
I'll correct you: Since this universe was in a state of non-existence - there must have been something that caused it to exist. The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. We only have attempts to file in holes. Asserting that God is the answer is an intellectual dead-end and supports the idea that we should be satisfied with not understanding.

Just as dark matter even though is undetectable but we do know that it is invisible and it has gravitational influence similarly we must describe the entity that caused the beginning.

To which we have no evidence for. We might as well be describing the invisible pink unicorn. It would have exactly the same impact and effect for humanity.

We need definition of god because there are dozens of religions claiming dozens of gods so which god is true?

There is only one god which fits the criteria and that is Allah (swt)

You have provided no reason to believe that God exists much less the Islamic rendition.

[Aurora]

The Islamic God is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I am yet to see any proof that such a God exists.

[coddles76]

Aurora,

Almighty Allah SWT will not show you his attributes until you work for it. Would you pay someone for doing 'NO WORK'.
Do you really think its justified to pay someone who sits on his backside and does nothing all day as opposed to someone who goes out working hard all day.
Allah SWT wants to see some return for all the things he has provided us. You give Allah SWT a hand he will extend and arm, if you come to Allah SWT Walking he will come to you running.

[Grace Seeker]

Funny.

Now the New Testament presents a wonderfully irrational argument for the existence of a God who is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I say irrational, because what God who had all power would need to do anything to prove himself to or even be concerned about human beings. Add to it the idea that the Bible presents humankind as being at emnity with God because of their corporate disobedience and it really doesn't make sense that God would be involved with them at all. Yet the New Testament's story of the cross is first of all a story of how God treats his enemies:

Jesus did not fall back on the old mechanisms of retribution. Since the whole public ministry took place in the context of the dawning kingdom of God, after his rejection the question arose as to how God would react to those enemies who were not won over by the offer of unconditonal forgiveness ... by his behavior he doubled his already gracious message of love of one's enemy,

Raymund Schwager

[coddles76]

Funny.

Now the New Testament presents a wonderfully irrational argument for the existence of a God who is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I say irrational, because what God who had all power would need to do anything to prove himself to or even be concerned about human beings. Add to it the idea that the Bible presents humankind as being at emnity with God because of their corporate disobedience and it really doesn't make sense that God would be involved with them at all. Yet the New Testament's story of the cross is first of all a story of how God treats his enemies:

Grace Seeker,
With all due respect, I don't think its funny at all. What you have just stated above it the reason why the world is in strong need of Islam. What you have just proposed is that we basically have no need to do anything and even worse we can cause all types of mischief on earth and God with his Mercy and Love will just say, No problem I'll forgive you. This to me is not funny, its actually quite serious and in serious need of attention. The social society of the world needs to rid itself from these corruptive ideas before it can move forward.

[Grace Seeker]

I don't think that unrighteous behavior is funny. My statement of funny has to do with the irony of our differing views of God's actions toward humanity. One that says that unless you work for it, God won't show himself to you. And one that says that God has already shown himself to you, even though you didn't deserve his attention.

After that both of them seem to have the same expectation of righteous living. Islam as a way to prove one's self and earn Allah favor, and Christianity as a response in gratitude for God's unmerited favor which one could never be good enough to earn.

[coddles76]

I don't think that unrighteous behavior is funny. My statement of funny has to do with the irony of our differing views of God's actions toward humanity. One that says that unless you work for it, God won't show himself to you. And one that says that God has already shown himself to you, even though you didn't deserve his attention.

After that both of them seem to have the same expectation of righteous living. Islam as a way to prove one's self and earn Allah favor, and Christianity as a response in gratitude for God's unmerited favor which one could never be good enough to earn.

Once again with all due respect but I still don't think the Irony is funny either, Once again its quite a serious issue and one that deserves a serious view. According to our beliefs this is what could determine our salvation. Islam tells us we must work hard to earn our salvation while in contrast Christianity teaches that salvation will come purely by the belief that Jesus (PBUH) died for our sins. Hence why christianity has no issue in Alcohol abuse, Illegal Sexual intercourse, Free mixing of the sexes etc etc which runs quite freely in the society of the christian world without much courses of action to reverse it. This is what is corrupt and its the idealogy that is causing the minds of the human population that reside in these societies to be corrupt.

[mkh4JC]

Once again with all due respect but I still don't think the Irony is funny either, Once again its quite a serious issue and one that deserves a serious view. According to our beliefs this is what could determine our salvation. Islam tells us we must work hard to earn our salvation while in contrast Christianity teaches that salvation will come purely by the belief that Jesus (PBUH) died for our sins. Hence why christianity has no issue in Alcohol abuse, Illegal Sexual intercourse, Free mixing of the sexes etc etc which runs quite freely in the society of the christian world without much courses of action to reverse it. This is what is corrupt and its the idealogy that is causing the minds of the human population that reside in these societies to be corrupt.

You need to understand that none of what you just described explains the lifestyle of a Christian. American or Western society as a whole? Yes. But America and Europe aren't theocracies. And sure, someone can tell you they are Christian, they can go to church, pay their tithes, do good works (feeding the hungry, putting clothes on peoples backs) but even that doesn't make you a Christian. Here's what Jesus said about himself and those who follow him:

'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whomsoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36.

Here's what Paul wrote in Romans: 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.

Here's another good verse in II Corinthians: 'Therefore ifany man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' Referencing here all things sinful.

So there is a lifestyle, a very altogether different lifestyle to that of the world, that a Christian has been enabled to live. And if someone is not living that lifestyle, as a Christian, then they'll have the Holy Spirit pricking their consciousness convicting them of the sin in their lives, until they get back right with God. As a Christian, he will discipline you and discipline you until death if needs be. We as Christians hardly have free reign to do as we please.

[coddles76]

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36.

Free of what?

Here's what Paul wrote in Romans: 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.

Paul wrote? Sorry but I would rather not take advice from someone who fell of his horse and then decided he now has the ability to communicate with God

So there is a lifestyle, a very altogether different lifestyle to that of the world, that a Christian has been enabled to live. And if someone is not living that lifestyle, as a Christian, then they'll have the Holy Spirit pricking their consciousness convicting them of the sin in their lives, until they get back right with God. As a Christian, he will discipline you and discipline you until death if needs be. We as Christians hardly have free reign to do as we please.

Just one question if I may. I always like to get different opinions on this. But what doctrine does the christian believe in? Please explain it to me or to our audience here on this forum.

[mkh4JC]

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.



Free of what?

Free of many things actually. Death (the fear of). Hell. Christ conquered it all for us. But what I was mainly referencing in that post was free from a life of sin.

Paul wrote? Sorry but I would rather not take advice from someone who fell of his horse and then decided he now has the ability to communicate with God

Paul had a real experience with Jesus Christ. Anybody can have a real experiencce with Jesus Christ. I personally have been a born again Christian since August 1st of 2002 (yes I remember the date).

Just one question if I may. I always like to get different opinions on this. But what doctrine does the christian believe in? Please explain it to me or to our audience here on this forum.

That Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he is God; that he died on the cross and paid our sin debt, rose, and is coming again; that we don't have to live our sinful lives anymore; that we can be adopted into the family of God, and start living holy, sin free lives. Sin is a disease that everyone is born with, Jesus Christ is the cure.

[Skavau]

Aurora,

Almighty Allah SWT will not show you his attributes until you work for it.

This makes no sense. How does one even 'work for seeing God'? Either God can be successfully demonstrated to exist by logic and/or by science or God cannot. It really is as simple as that. This just an excuse to not give reasoning.

[Grace Seeker]

Paul wrote? Sorry but I would rather not take advice from someone who fell of his horse and then decided he now has the ability to communicate with God

Ad hominum arguments are beneath you. You wouldn't take kindly to a comment if we reworded yours to say: "Sorry but I would rather not take advice from someone who hid in a cave and then decided he now has the ability to communicate with God."

Once again with all due respect but I still don't think the Irony is funny either, Once again its quite a serious issue and one that deserves a serious view. According to our beliefs this is what could determine our salvation. Islam tells us we must work hard to earn our salvation while in contrast Christianity teaches that salvation will come purely by the belief that Jesus (PBUH) died for our sins.

I agree that it is a serious issue. I still find it ironic. Does not Islam teach that no one can stand before Allah sure of their salvation, not even Muhammad dare believe he has "earned" his salvation. It totally depends on Allah's favor, in other words, his grace. This is exactly what Christianity teaches. So, the Muslim works for something that he cannot earn. And criticizes the Christian who puts their trust in the mercy of a righteous God to accept who he wills to accept.

Hence why christianity has no issue in Alcohol abuse, Illegal Sexual intercourse, Free mixing of the sexes etc etc which runs quite freely in the society of the christian world without much courses of action to reverse it. This is what is corrupt and its the idealogy that is causing the minds of the human population that reside in these societies to be corrupt.

You are mistaken about the Christian view regarding these things. We do say that even the most corrupt individual can be saved by turning his/her life over to Jesus Christ. But once a person has done so, they are called by the very nature of that new relationship they have been granted with God in Jesus Christ to live a life worthy of the gospel, a sanctified and holy life. Indeed while salvation is not a work that we can accomplish on our own, we who are saved are called to work out our salvation and regarding those who don't it is questionable if their salvation is even genuine in the first place for such grace should produce fruits of righteousness in a person's life.

But Christians categorically reject the idea that one can ever do enough good to deserve heaven, and I agree it is a serious salvation issue. Even as all righteous behavior is to be applauded, those who think they can earn God's favor, so that he owes them a spot in paradise, are simply fooling themselves. We are all dependent on God's grace.

[aamirsaab]

This makes no sense. How does one even 'work for seeing God'? Either God can be successfully demonstrated to exist by logic and/or by science or God cannot. It really is as simple as that. This just an excuse to not give reasoning.

Everything that is created has a creator. God = creator.

Pretty logical, no?

[Eeman]

salam alaikum bro...
your threads too long... making my head izzzzzzzzzzzzzyyyyyyy

[Aurora]

Aurora,

Almighty Allah SWT will not show you his attributes until you work for it. Would you pay someone for doing 'NO WORK'.
Do you really think its justified to pay someone who sits on his backside and does nothing all day as opposed to someone who goes out working hard all day.
Allah SWT wants to see some return for all the things he has provided us. You give Allah SWT a hand he will extend and arm, if you come to Allah SWT Walking he will come to you running.

Which God should I work for, and how should I go about working for Him? There is no way to verify the existence of the Islamic God.

[Brother_Mujahid]

There is no way to verify the existence of the Islamic God.

you agree there is a god?...

[Aurora]

you agree there is a god?...

I have no problem referring to that which began the universe or existed prior to the universe as God, however, I don't see any reason to believe that this God is merciful, powerful or many of the other attributes given to the Islamic God.

[Brother_Mujahid]

I have no problem referring to that which began the universe or existed prior to the universe as God, however, I don't see any reason to believe that this God is merciful, powerful or many of the other attributes given to the Islamic God.

i see...

well if you was to accept there is a god. Then you will know that the last and final message sent to mankind was that of the Quran and Muhammad was the last and final prophet.

Within the Quran and hadith (narrations of our prophet) there are both many verses in the quran and within the hadith which highlight the above attributes of Allah.

heres just a simple example theres numerous and endless examples im sure i or any other member can bring.

From Anas, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:

"Allah the Almighty has said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and hope in Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds in the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I shall forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with an earthful of sins and were you then to face Me, without having associated anything with Me, I shall grant you an earthful of pardon.'"

[Recorded by Al-Tirmidhi, who said that it is a good and sound hadith]

[Skavau]

Everything that is created has a creator. God = creator.

Pretty logical, no?

There is nothing incorrect about a statement which asserts that everything that is created has a creator. However, it is not valid in this instance. It has yet to be demonstrated that what you are referring to as 'created' in this instanced is in fact - a creation. We have no reason to believe the universe was created, therefore your argument is moot.

Moreover "Everything that is created has a creator" does not necessitate that God is the creator. At least God as you assume.

[Grace Seeker]

i see...

well if you was to accept there is a god. Then you will know that the last and final message sent to mankind was that of the Quran and Muhammad was the last and final prophet.

This is a non-sequitor. That is the second statement (then you will know...) does not by necessity follow from the first (if you accept there is a god). The existance of a god does not mean that the god you (or I or anyone else worships) is actually the the god that exists. Proof that one's god is THE god has to be more than just a claim to having received revelation from God. If I was an atheist your proofs would mean nothing to me, for they are not a rational argument at all, but one based on solely on affect.

Within the Quran and hadith (narrations of our prophet) there are both many verses in the quran and within the hadith which highlight the above attributes of Allah.

heres just a simple example theres numerous and endless examples im sure i or any other member can bring.

From Anas, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:

"Allah the Almighty has said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and hope in Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds in the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I shall forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with an earthful of sins and were you then to face Me, without having associated anything with Me, I shall grant you an earthful of pardon.'"

[Recorded by Al-Tirmidhi, who said that it is a good and sound hadith]

None of that means squat if Allah is a god of human construction rather than the god who truly exists. If you are trying to construct a "rational argument" for belief in Allah, you should realize that you cannot use the product of Allah to make that argument to one who is only willing to accept the existence of a god, not necessarily your god. And that isn't meant as an attack on Allah or even your belief in Allah, but only a critique of the type of "proof" you are trying to present.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This thread is yet another to appear that highlights the massive disparity between what one group regards as "rational", "logical" or "proof", and what everyone else thinks.

Those three are probably the most frequently misused words regularly to appear on the forum.

Peace

[Brother_Mujahid]

If you are trying to construct a "rational argument" for belief in Allah, you should realize that you cannot use the product of Allah to make that argument

point taken on board.

the phrasing of the first bit i see was not right.

Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.

if i anyone was to make some new device they would teach someone else how exactly to use it, its purpose and so on in a manual. So any other person not familiar with the device can pick up the manual and figure ot everything there is to know.

The same way if a god exists don't you think that God would have left us a manual and an example to live by. Rather than everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions.

It is with this i present to you the noble quran the manual sent by Allah to the whole of mankind. Within it there are numerous vverses calling on Man to look at his signs within creation and how perfect this world and universe has been created.

i invite and implore you to study and read this manual, this book of guidance sent to mankind.

[Aurora]

Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.

What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.

[Brother_Mujahid]

What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.

"O you who believe, whoever of you becomes a rebel against his deen (know that in his place) Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers, harsh towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and not fearing the blame of anyone who blames."

(Qur'an, Al-Maidah 5:54)

[Grace Seeker]

Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.

if i anyone was to make some new device they would teach someone else how exactly to use it, its purpose and so on in a manual. So any other person not familiar with the device can pick up the manual and figure ot everything there is to know.

The same way if a god exists don't you think that God would have left us a manual and an example to live by. Rather than everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions.

Only if that god were to care about his creation. I happen to believe that to be true of God, and therefore believe he has given us a manual to guide us, but that is a product of my belief, not proof that my belief is true.

The Greeks you will recall (and many others as well: the Inca, Maya, Vikings, Zulu, Maori, Korowai, Dani, native Hawaiians, Amayran, Mapuche, Apache, Anuit, Celts, Saxons) have believed in gods with entirely different natures; ones who didn't provide manuals and some who didn't even provide revelations. In fact the opposite of what you suggest seems to be common among animistic religions and those which emphasize the importance of shamans. Yet those groups still accomplish what you propose, that is they avoid the problems of everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions -- given the moral decay I see present in so much of both the Christian and Isalmic worlds, perhaps they do so even better than those places where it is accepted that manuals from some sort of God have been revealed.

[Muezzin]

Ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age. You all have computers and internet connection and are smart enough to use these devices. How can you be so stupid and believe an intelligent creature is behind it all.

Implying Bill Gates lacks intelligence is mean.

[Chuck]

What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.

God has sent prophets and His guidance, even though everybody won't agree on them. Nonetheless, prophets and guidance that God sent through them is there.

[ajazz]

Assalamualykum

Dark Matter is completely irrelevant to any of this, so I will just skip to the points that actually have a point

It is perfectly relevant, it is lack of understand on your part to think so.

The point is…

Whenever god is mentioned people like you jump and say there is no empirical evidence for existence of god.

Dark matter is completely undetectable by any instrument known to man it existence is based simply on logical conclusion and yet it is unanimously accepted by majority of scientists.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention DARK ENERGY …..

19:40 23 May 2008

“Some had hoped it might be just an illusion. But it looks like dark energy is real and here to stay”

AND THE EVEDENCE FOR IT IS BASED ON?????

“In 1998, astronomers found that distant supernovae were dimmer, and thus farther away, than expected. This suggested that the expansion of the universe is accelerating – and "dark energy" was named as the culprit.”
“Since then, astronomers have struggled to explain what dark energy actually is”
http://tinyurl.com/6h49hl



Now is this what is called testable, empirical evidence?

Double standards?

, you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang

.

Where did I make a statement that there was nothing before big bang?
Either it’s your wrong assumption or it is deliberate attempt to mislead.

Albert Einstein was a scientific pantheist. I do not know why you are using him as a recommend concerning evidence for the existence of Allah.

Just because if I agree with him on some of his belief does not mean that I have to subscribe to his whole belief.

. We have excellent reason to believe that there was something prior to the Big Bang. .

But no evidence.

What was there before big bang?

Multiverse, megaverse, bouncing universe, parallel universe?

The only theory that has empirical evidence to support is big bang and you can go only as far as singularity which is supported by the holy Quran.
Before that no evidence will be forth coming because of cosmic amnesia

All the other theory that exist other than big bang are mere conjuncture and speculation and even science fiction, there is no evidence for their support.

What scientists are doing is inventing the equations to suit their assumptions.

You see…

4 dimensions are not enough to know what was there before big bang so let’s add 6 more dimensions…the answer is not what is expected. Ok let make it 26 dimensions…..
The answer is still not what is expected, never mind.
You see the fundamental particle from which our universe is made is not spherical or point like but rather made of very very tiny tiny strings… just like guitar strings (Long live Rolling Stones)..
Yes you have heard it right! And there is more to it.
And these strings vibrate (may be to one of their favorite song of Rolling Stones)
Just like guitar string but are full of energy and so they sometime curl and form atoms or join together and may create extra dimensions and then universes are created not one two or three but many many many (this was actual result predicted by this theory)

You have just been introduced to string theory the latest and greatest theory which is supposed to be single unifying all, theory to explain everything yes everything.

Evidence be dammed, at least it will give the answer that we want!


“Peter Woit, a mathematician at Columbia University, has challenged the entire string-theory”
“String theory, he avers, has become a form of science fiction.”

http://tinyurl.com/5kuol6

Since this universe was in a state of non-existence - there must have been something that caused it to exist. The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. We only have attempts to file in holes. Asserting that God is the answer is an intellectual dead-end and supports the idea that we should be satisfied with not understanding.

Regarding evidence you will have to wait for my next post.
Believing in god does not mean intellectual dead- end, at least not in Islam
You only have to look at history when Europe was in dark ages Islam was having its golden period and science was thriving.
Today the situation is different because I think we Muslims are not practicing Islam as we should.

To which we have no evidence for. We might as well be describing the invisible pink unicorn. It would have exactly the same impact and effect for humanity.

Well go ahead describe me a pink unicorn, tell me its power, its ability, give me references
And why it should be logically be responsible for our creation.
Go ahead tickle my neurons.

You have provided no reason to believe that God exists much less the Islamic rendition.

And you have not read my post without prejudice.
Well, you have infinite amount of time to come up with infinite number of theories with infinite numbers of results
Good luck.

[ajazz]

The Islamic God is merciful, powerful, just, loving, etc. I am yet to see any proof that such a God exists.

you deny his existence and ridicule him yet no bolt of lightening has struck you down i think this is merciful enough.

:D

[Skavau]

Whenever god is mentioned people like you jump and say there is no empirical evidence for existence of god.

Dark matter is completely undetectable by any instrument known to man it existence is based simply on logical conclusion and yet it is unanimously accepted by majority of scientists.

Dark matter is not comparable to the existence of God.

Moreover, there is observational evidence behind Dark Matter.

Now is this what is called testable, empirical evidence?

Double standards?

Your analysis of Dark Matter and dark energy is far too short to account for the complexities and research that those who study it might go into.

Where did I make a statement that there was nothing before big bang?
Either it’s your wrong assumption or it is deliberate attempt to mislead.

Read it again, ajazz.

I said that you didn't believe there was anything before the Big Bang. I quote: "you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang "

But no evidence.

What was there before big bang?

Multiverse, megaverse, bouncing universe, parallel universe?

Arguably, we do have evidence.

Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The only theory that has empirical evidence to support is big bang and you can go only as far as singularity which is supported by the holy Quran.
Before that no evidence will be forth coming because of cosmic amnesia

The Qu'ran only supports the Big Bang if you interpret it in a specific way. It is no surprise that both Muslims and Christians claim their faith supports science. This is exactly what I meant earlier when I said that religion adapts to scientific understanding.

You did not hear anyone claim the specifics of the origin of the universe prior to our understanding of the Big Bang.

Believing in god does not mean intellectual dead- end, at least not in Islam
You only have to look at history when Europe was in dark ages Islam was having its golden period and science was thriving.

Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?

Well go ahead describe me a pink unicorn, tell me its power, its ability, give me references
And why it should be logically be responsible for our creation.
Go ahead tickle my neurons.

I don't need to.

You describing a 'God' irrespective of details and specifics still has exactly the same effect for humanity as me describing the pink unicorn. Your irrelevant conjecture on God's attributes is not scientific, does not enhance our understanding of the universe and has no value for humanity whatsoever.

I find Theology a tired and utterly uninteresting subject.

you deny his existence and ridicule him yet no bolt of lightening has struck you down i think this is merciful enough.

Your standard of 'merciful' is very suspect. Are you implying that God not being completely intolerant to all criticism somehow ensures his merciful nature?

[Muezzin]

Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I know I'm being pedantic, but that's exactly the same type of reasoning theists use in reference to their own beliefs.

Und hence, the cycle of debate continues.

[Skavau]

I know I'm being pedantic, but that's exactly the same type of reasoning theists use in reference to their own beliefs.

I know.

Regrettably, the assertion 'something does not come from nothing' does not demonstrate God. And 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' also does not demonstrate God.

[Muezzin]

I know.

Regrettably, the assertion 'something does not come from nothing' does not demonstrate God. And 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' also does not demonstrate God.

Well, 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' does not demonstrate anything that the idiom is used for. Semantics... they should save it for advertising.

[ajazz]

Dark matter is not comparable to the existence of God.

That’s right nothing is comparable to Allah (swt)

Go read my post carefully again you are getting confused and also contradicting your self.

From your earlier post you said

The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. .

And now you say

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Wow!

Moreover, there is observational evidence behind Dark Matter

Most scientists agree that most of the matter in the universe is dark. Dark matter, which is undetectable through direct observation, can only be inferred because of its effects on the matter that we can see

http://www.physorg.com/news110795864.html

The key word is inferred and not observational evidence, get it?

Arguably, we do have evidence.

Where it is? Invisible like dark matter

The Qu'ran only supports the Big Bang if you interpret it in a specific way. .

Yusuf Ali Translation

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?


Translation Pickthal

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?


Translation M. Khan


Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?




No interpretation is needed the meaning is crystal clear.

Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?

There is not a single statement in the holy Quran which goes against ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT

I don't need to

Well you don’t need to or you can’t?

You describing a 'God' irrespective of details and specifics still has exactly the same effect for humanity as me describing the pink unicorn

You don’t get things right do you? The first time or the second time

It’s not my description, it is Allah (swt) himself describing in the holy Quran

Don’t know about you but has effect on lots of people that why we are more than 1.5 billion Muslims all over the world and still growing, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

Your irrelevant conjecture on God's attributes is not scientific, does not enhance our understanding of the universe and has no value for humanity whatsoever.

“A significant number of stars in the sky, such as Aldebaran and Altair, and astronomical terms such as alhidade, azimuth, and almucantar, are still today recognized with their Arabic names.[5]”

Islam and astronomy

Islam has affected astronomy directly and indirectly. A major impetus for the flowering of astronomy in Islam came from religious observances, which presented an assortment of problems in mathematical astronomy, specifically in spherical geometry.[1]

Islamic attitude towards astronomy

Islam advised Muslims to find ways of using the stars. The Qur'an says: "And it is He who ordained the stars for you that you may be guided thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea."[7] On the basis of this advice Muslim began to find better observational and navigational instruments, thus most navigational stars today have Arabic names.[1]

In the 9th century, the eldest Banū Mūsā brother, Ja'far Muhammad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir, made significant contributions to astrophysics and celestial mechanics. He was the first to hypothesize that the heavenly bodies and celestial spheres are subject to the same laws of physics as Earth, unlike the ancients who believed that the celestial spheres followed their own set of physical laws different from that of Earth.[42] In his Astral Motion and The Force of Attraction, Muhammad ibn Musa also proposed that there is a force of attraction between heavenly bodies,[43] foreshadowing Newton's law of universal gravitation.[44]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy

[Skavau]

That’s right nothing is comparable to Allah (swt)

By comparable, I meant as in how people understand it and why people accept it. Dark Matter is not take on faith value.

Go read my post carefully again you are getting confused and also contradicting your self.

Not at all. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but equally not being evidence of absence does not entail actual positive evidence. So the two statements do indeed co-exist. I'll explain further.

We have no evidence that God exists.
But this absence of evidence does not equate for positive evidence against the existence of God. Absence of evidence is simply that - lacking.

Most scientists agree that most of the matter in the universe is dark. Dark matter, which is undetectable through direct observation, can only be inferred because of its effects on the matter that we can see

Do a google search and type in "Observation evidence of Dark Matter".

Approximately the first 4 of the 5 links I noticed all talk about it.

Where it is? Invisible like dark matter

Why are you responding to everything I say out of context?

I made my case directly blow my claim that evidence does exist. Here it is again, for your sake:

Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

No interpretation is needed the meaning is crystal clear.

No it isn't.

Declaring the heaven and the earths as united has nothing to do with anything regarding the Big Bang. And the statement everything coming from water is factually incorrect.

There is not a single statement in the holy Quran which goes against ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT

Again, you didn't answer the question:

Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?

Well you don’t need to or you can’t?

I don't need to.

You don’t get things right do you? The first time or the second time

It’s not my description, it is Allah (swt) himself describing in the holy Quran

Or, of course if the Qu'ran is not true and if God does not exist - it is nothing.

Don’t know about you but has effect on lots of people that why we are more than 1.5 billion Muslims all over the world and still growing, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

What criteria are you using to determine Islam as the worlds fastest growing religion?

Moreover, appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy - not a good argument.