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Fishman
07-22-2008, 11:50 PM
:sl:
Its Hajj time, and people are going to Makkah for the pilgrimage! They uncover their heads and replace their worldly clothes with simple white towels, and the women put on plain white dresses and hijabs. They walk through the streets passionately declaring to their Lord about how much they love Him and want to serve Him. They travel vast distances merely to reenact the important decisions of the Patriarchs and the figures in the birth of Islam. The rich man mingles with the poor, and both princes and beggars follow the same goal, to search their hearts and souls for the strength to destroy their egos and worldly desires and surrender to Allah. All in the amazing and holy backdrop of:
A super-comfortable air-conditioned hotel room, with excellent room service and a view of the Kaaba to match!

Okay, you may not have got that, but what I am saying is, why do people want all these silly worldly luxuries at Hajj time?! This is a pilgrimage, not a holiday! You shouldn't be snug in a million-dollar skyscraper, you should be in a tent like the rest of the people down there.
:w:
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BlissfullyJaded
07-23-2008, 12:04 AM
:sl:

I understand your point whole heartedly, and I even agree with it. There is a lot of consumerism in the Muslim world, and I think that's very noticeable during Hajj. On the one hand people scream how dare the Saudi's do such a thing, but on the other hand, we are reinforcing everything they do. The hujjaj themselves want the 5 star hotels, and freak out when they see a bug. They willingly choose group packages where they can stay at Hilton over some older hotel. They want 10 course meals, and feel deprived when they see somebody else eating something they couldn't have. And omg, the tents...they don't have beds? How will they ever survive for 5 days without beds? I could go on, but you get the point, and I'm not even exaggerating btw.

When I stated the reason behind the umbrellas, I wasn't saying I wanted it. I rather like things staying the same. But I also understand the reason behind it. The heat does get intense Jumu'ah time, especially in the summer. I know, people managed before...but then the same goes for the courtyard of Masjid al Nabawi. People managed before, but adding it wasn't a bad thing. And I think once it's actually complete it would look prettier than the model picture shows. I hope. If not...at least it will serve it's purpose.

ETA: There are those who say not to talk about the negatives during Hajj/Umrah, as it may discourage others to go. That was not my intent up there, and if anybody has read my previous posts, knows that I love Makkah and Madeenah more than anything and if I could even stay there I would. Don't be put off by the negativities that are stated, but rather become the person who treats the Haram'ain with respect by not doing the foolish acts others fall into...
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
:sl:

I understand your point whole heartedly, and I even agree with it. There is a lot of consumerism in the Muslim world, and I think that's very noticeable during Hajj. On the one hand people scream how dare the Saudi's do such a thing, but on the other hand, we are reinforcing everything they do. The hujjaj themselves want the 5 star hotels, and freak out when they see a bug. They willingly choose group packages where they can stay at Hilton over some older hotel. They want 10 course meals, and feel deprived when they see somebody else eating something they couldn't have. And omg, the tents...they don't have beds? How will they ever survive for 5 days without beds? I could go on, but you get the point, and I'm not even exaggerating btw.

When I stated the reason behind the umbrellas, I wasn't saying I wanted it. I rather like things staying the same. But I also understand the reason behind it. The heat does get intense Jumu'ah time, especially in the summer. I know, people managed before...but then the same goes for the courtyard of Masjid al Nabawi. People managed before, but adding it wasn't a bad thing. And I think once it's actually complete it would look prettier than the model picture shows. I hope. If not...at least it will serve it's purpose.

ETA: There are those who say not to talk about the negatives during Hajj/Umrah, as it may discourage others to go. That was not my intent up there, and if anybody has read my previous posts, knows that I love Makkah and Madeenah more than anything and if I could even stay there I would. Don't be put off by the negativities that are stated, but rather become the person who treats the Haram'ain with respect by not doing the foolish acts others fall into...
:sl:
Don't worry, I'm not blaming you for anything, I'm just complaining about people in general. If Hajj is all about equality between Muslims, they why should rich westerners and Arab Shaykhs get special treatment? If Hajj is about humility before God, then why do people want all the luxuries and mod-cons?
:w:
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SixTen
07-23-2008, 04:14 PM
People are always quick to criticise and judge on the minor things -_-.
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
People are always quick to criticise and judge on the minor things -_-.
:sl:
The spirit of Hajj being ruined is a minor thing?
:w:
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SixTen
07-23-2008, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The spirit of Hajj being ruined is a minor thing?
:w:
For whom? Seems like you are more uneasy then them. Nothing haram has been done, lay off their backs. No one is forcing you to go to a hotel. This thread is just muslim bashing pretty much.
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
For whom? Seems like you are more uneasy then them. Nothing haram has been done, lay off their backs. No one is forcing you to go to a hotel. This thread is just muslim bashing pretty much.
:sl:
Lots of bad things aren't specifically Haraam, like wasting energy, or 'Dawah' websites with pictures of AKs everywhere. Just because something isn't Haraam doesn't automatically mean its okay.

And 'Muslim bashing?' I am Muslim! If you wanted to call it bashing the rich or bashing the free market, then fine, but Muslim bashing?
:w:
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SixTen
07-23-2008, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Lots of bad things aren't specifically Haraam, like wasting energy, or 'Dawah' websites with pictures of AKs everywhere. Just because something isn't Haraam doesn't automatically mean its okay.

And 'Muslim bashing?' I am Muslim! If you wanted to call it bashing the rich or bashing the free market, then fine, but Muslim bashing?
:w:
I see you are muslim - but one thing that is rampant in this world - is that muslims always attack other muslims - on pretty much anything. Now, seeing a thread attacking some muslims who wish to go to some hotel and label them as pampered - just makes me think - are muslims that bored that they need to go nit pick on such minor issues?

How about make threads, dealing with serious things, like those muslims who believe in reincarnation, or suicide bombing, or something which is actually a problem in the muslim society. Just because you don't think its good that people go to hotels does not mean you should condemn them from doing it - it isn't wrong.
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 04:56 PM
How about make threads, dealing with serious things, like those muslims who believe in reincarnation, or suicide bombing, or something which is actually a problem in the muslim society. .
:sl:
It isn't as major an issue as suicide bombing, but if we made threads about that we would just be preaching to the converted as hardly anybody aound here believes in it. It would be like posting a thread telling people that you think murder is wrong.

Just because you don't think its good that people go to hotels does not mean you should condemn them from doing it - it isn't wrong
Not all things that are wrong are haraam. If nobody did any nafl or sunnat worship, they wouldn't really be violating any specific law, but what they are doing is still wrong.
:w:
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youngsister
07-23-2008, 05:01 PM
:sl:
So staying in a hotel during haj is wrong?

Thats your personal opinion nothing to do with Islam.
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by youngsister
:sl:

Thats your personal opinion nothing to do with Islam.
:sl:
Exactly.
:w:
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SixTen
07-23-2008, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Exactly.
:w:
Hence, why I stated, it was distasteful, to go criticise muslims with your opinions on such minor issues. This thread brings no benefit whatsoever.
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Keltoi
07-23-2008, 05:48 PM
I'm not Muslim, but I can relate to the criticism Fishman brought up because it is a problem with Christianity as well. Sometimes people get so caught up in material comforts that they put more effort in obtaining those comforts than they do devotion to God. That doesn't mean those people are bad Muslims, or Christians, but it is something worth pondering and something worthwhile to bring up.

Humility before God is important, and perhaps some have lost sight of that.
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Hence, why I stated, it was distasteful, to go criticise muslims with your opinions on such minor issues. This thread brings no benefit whatsoever.
:sl:
I don't think you understand. I'm not saying that these people are comitting a sin or violating the Shariah. I'm no scholar, so I can't judge on these things and I leave them to th experts. But what I am saying is that I think there is something wrong with these people's hearts. Just because something isn't a sin doesn't mean that its not bad. Is missing your Nafl Salah a sin? Not really, but it definitely isn't good, is it?
:w:
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BlissfullyJaded
07-23-2008, 07:14 PM
:sl:

I'm not dissing people for staying in a hotel nor do I expect anybody to stay in some old, run-down apartment or something.


Sure, it's not haram to have those desires, but if there was anyone who could have easily had a luxurious Hajj, it was Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam). He is the beloved of Allah, and if he so desired he could have asked Allah to bless them with such...but no, they endured the cold nights and hot days with sabr and shukr, because the place itself meant to them then the worldly things the place can offer. The little we have to go through when we are there is nothing, but yet we don't want to go through it. You know, when you don't have the material things to play with, it just makes the trip much more amazing... There's a reason why Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) feared wealth for us and not poverty..

Anyways, there is a hadith that speaks of this anyway, where it says something to the effect of the rich will go for a vacation, the poor to beg, the merchant to bring back goods to sell. I'll find the actual hadith later inshaAllah. So what has been destined shall happen, and no amount of talking can prevent it. But we can at least try to open our eyes and make sure we don't fall into the trap.

I'm really sorry to those I offended. May Allah bless each of you to go for Hajj and may He accept it from you. Ameen.
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Fishman
07-23-2008, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
:sl:
Sure, it's not haram to have those desires, but if there was anyone who could have easily had a luxurious Hajj, it was Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam). He is the beloved of Allah, and if he so desired he could have asked Allah to bless them with such...but no, they endured the cold nights and hot days with sabr and shukr, because the place itself meant to them then the worldly things the place can offer. The little we have to go through when we are there is nothing, but yet we don't want to go through it. You know, when you don't have the material things to play with, it just makes the trip much more amazing... There's a reason why Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) feared wealth for us and not poverty..
:sl:
He was the king of all Arabia, but he rarely ate two square meals a day!
:w:
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SixTen
07-24-2008, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude™
I don't think it's distasteful at all, nor do I think it's a minor issue.

Think about it, a person is in Makkah, the house of Allah... yet feels the need to complain about not having any air conditioning?

Does that not show how heedless such a person is? Of what real worth is his pilgrimage, if he can't see past the material aspects?

Who said anything about complaining? If someone wishes to have an air conditioned hotel - so be it - nothing wrong with it. Now, if a guy is whining and he feels his trip has been ruined by the lack of a hotel or air conditioning sure - but that is not what the topic is about at all. Remember, these people didn't just hop on a plane with no planning and ended up their - they sacrifice alot usually to get their - so lets not judge their intentions wrongfully.
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S_87
07-24-2008, 08:43 PM
those hajj tents are all air conditioned anyway :?

ok are you talking about just the five days of hajj or staying for the period in makkah?
if i went for umrah, i would stay in a nice hotel and dont see a problem with it..
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glo
07-24-2008, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm not Muslim, but I can relate to the criticism Fishman brought up because it is a problem with Christianity as well. Sometimes people get so caught up in material comforts that they put more effort in obtaining those comforts than they do devotion to God. That doesn't mean those people are bad Muslims, or Christians, but it is something worth pondering and something worthwhile to bring up.

Humility before God is important, and perhaps some have lost sight of that.
Well said, Keltoi.

I agree with you and Fishman on those issues.
(Just wait until Christmas comes around ... we'll be having those discussions again ... :D)
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truemuslim
07-25-2008, 12:51 AM
oh why yall jumpin him???
Its true, why do they make it so expensive anyway? So you have to pay lik $300+++ for stayin in somewhere so you can go to obey your lord??? most the people don't even go to hajj because the expensive hotels.
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Nawal89
07-25-2008, 06:40 AM
Someone sponsored me and my family for hajj, so we got the best, and really, with all that luxury it didnt feel like hajj at all. Food was wasted, women traveled with all their jewelry, men smoked after dinner.

What kind of hajj is that eh? I feel like I have to make it again.
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Malaikah
07-25-2008, 07:58 AM
:sl:

I honestly don't see what the problem is. I am by no means an expert on hajj, but I don't see what's wrong with wanting to stay in a hotel rather than sleeping on the floor in a tent.

I can hardly sleep in the heat, add sleeping on the floor and I'll probably get no sleep at all... add the locust I've been hearing about and I know I won't get any sleep! How am I meant to get the most out of my hajj if I can't even rest to keep my energy up?
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-25-2008, 09:11 AM
Whining during umrah/hajj is wrong

being wasteful during umrah/hajj is wrong

having a nice place to stay isnt

having air conditioning isnt



the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam always chose the easier of two paths, im NOT saying the more comfy (as he was offered a kingdome on earth which he refused) but im saying he would choose the easier path...

less fitnah that way



sa7?
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north_malaysian
07-25-2008, 09:28 AM
well...there are pampered Malaysian pilgrims...

For normal price, it's RM 12,000.00 per person...you register today and you can only perform hajj in 2014.

But for those who want to perform hajj in this year and only registered this year.... there is a special package of minimum RM 35,000.00... the pilgrims will have better room, better service etc than those who paid RM 12,000.00...

And those who are pampered Malaysian pilgrims, from what I've heard thay have to pay RM 100,000.00. They would have the best of the best rooms, service, private vehicles, chauffeurs, butlers etc. Even their tents in Arafat, Muzalifa, Mina is covered by grass (this is what I've heard from a friend of mine...cannot verified though... but the RM 100,000.00 super-special package does exist for Malaysian pilgrims.
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truemuslim
07-26-2008, 04:21 AM
nobody is saying anything about staying in hotels. we/they are saying stayin in a big rich show offy hotel and forgetting what your there for is wrong.
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aminahjaan
07-26-2008, 04:37 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but during hajj you shouldn't be able to differentiate between a prince and a pauper
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BlissfullyJaded
07-26-2008, 05:26 AM
:sl:

Huh? Tents are in Mina, which has no hotels. Hotels are in Makkah, which has no tents. The nights aren't hot in Mina, and won't be until Hajj is in August / September which is a way off. Even then, there are air conditioners in the tents, so you won't feel the heat while you're asleep. There are foam mattresses in the tents if people wanna use it, and the rugs are pretty nice. I don't think the locusts are a problem, never heard of it anyway. If they are, the Saudis would do somethin so the hujjaj don't suffer anyway...

nobody is saying anything about staying in hotels. we/they are saying stayin in a big rich show offy hotel and forgetting what your there for is wrong.
Precisely sista!

The fact that a person is even in the holy city, should be more than enough an uplifiting experience. One that makes you forget all the 'hardships' that you are enduring.
Agreed. And depending on the type of person you are, you might look back on those hardships and be like, wow, that was an aweeesome Hajj alhamdulillah!
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Simply_Logical
07-26-2008, 08:24 AM
:sl: peeps,
fishman, my bro i agree with you.
theres a difference between a need and a want,
theres the basics a person needs,
and luxuries a person wants,
it just seems a person can't have (sakoon) peace,
unless hes in a marriot or a hilton hotel!
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