Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

[MuslimCONVERT]

For the longest time I was confused how Muslims were claiming that we worship the same God as the Christians/Jews, seeing as how the Christian's worship Jesus. And for that matter, it was confusing to me even as a Christian [before my conversion to Islam] how it is that as a Christian who believed in the Father/Son/Holy Spirit Triune God, I still considered that the Jews and myself were worshipping the same God...

It was only recently that someone cleared everything up for me, and explained what we mean as Muslims when we say we worship the same God as the Jews and the Christians. I thought I would pass this thought along.

It is basically an issue of semantics. To put it in as simple a way as possible: Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the God of Abraham. The problem is we don't like the way the other talks about Him. For example, the Jew says that God did not send Jesus -to which the Christians and Muslims object, and neither did He send Muhammad, -to which the Muslim objects. Also, throughout the Torah, we see a very human concept of God... a God who repents, makes mistakes, is seen, at one point, standing next to a well talking to Himself, and so on... and this sort of anthropomorphism the Muslim does not like to hear considering it an insult to God.

Likewise, neither the Muslim nor the Jew can tolerate the Christian concept of the Trinity, that three persons are one(?) God, or that God became a human being...

And so the main point is, we disagree on what He is, but not who He is... we all agree that He is the One who controls the universe, who made a covenant with Abraham, and so on...

I am, obviously, not expecting some of the controversialists to suddenly jump on the bandwagon and suddenly be okay with saying we all worship the same God. This was simply meant as a clarification as to what we mean when we as Muslims say we worship the same God as the Jews and the Christians.

And May God guide us all closer to the truth.

[Muhammad]

Thread Approved.

[Keltoi]

I think it is obvious that we worship the same God, and you are correct, the difference is in how we view God's nature. We have very different understandings of how God interacts/interacted with His people. Personally, I think the fact that we worship the same God should lead to more understanding and appreciation of that fact...but of course reality is quite different. The fact that we do worship the same God is the primary reason there is conflict on the issue.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think it is obvious that we worship the same God, and you are correct, the difference is in how we view God's nature. We have very different understandings of how God interacts/interacted with His people. Personally, I think the fact that we worship the same God should lead to more understanding and appreciation of that fact...but of course reality is quite different. The fact that we do worship the same God is the primary reason there is conflict on the issue.

We understand that theoretically we worship the Almighty BUT and this is a big BUT Hindus also try to worship Allah with a different view

(there is really only 1 higher power anyone can point to). Our job as Muslims consists not only of "understanding" your views but you must

understand that the end result is the same. There is one God. There is one religion. the religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isa, and

Muhammad (pbuaot). Your views are rejected by God himself, how can you expect us to do anything else? Ask one Muslim if they think that

Allah would prefer one religion for humanity or a mishmash of different ones. You shouldn't be surprised at our answer.


We understand your views and respect your right to have them BUT we disagree with them and reject their right to exist.

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[Keltoi]

We understand that theoretically we worship the Almighty BUT and this is a big BUT Hindus also try to worship Allah with a different view

(there is really only 1 higher power anyone can point to). Our job as Muslims consists not only of "understanding" your views but you must

understand that the end result is the same. There is one God. There is one religion. the religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isa, and

Muhammad (pbuaot). Your views are rejected by God himself, how can you expect us to do anything else? Ask one Muslim if they think that

Allah would prefer one religion for humanity or a mishmash of different ones. You shouldn't be surprised at our answer.


We understand your views and respect your right to have them BUT we disagree with them and reject their right to exist.

Reject their right to exist? I suppose I understand what you're saying, but I personally don't care what others do. I am content with my relationship with Jesus Christ, and outside of sharing that belief with those who also seek a relationship with Christ, I don't really care if Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc exist. The world is as God allows it to be.

[AntiKarateKid]

Reject their right to exist? I suppose I understand what you're saying, but I personally don't care what others do. I am content with my relationship with Jesus Christ, and outside of sharing that belief with those who also seek a relationship with Christ, I don't really care if Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc exist. The world is as God allows it to be.

EXACTLY! Why should a Hindu care if he feels that "connection" or that "relationship" with Brahma? Let me give you a tip here, blind faith is worth nothing in the eyes of God.

[Keltoi]

EXACTLY! Why should a Hindu care if he feels that "connection" or that "relationship" with Brahma? Let me give you a tip here, blind faith is worth nothing in the eyes of God.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean blind faith in God is worth nothing in the eyes of God? Or do you mean blind faith in a god outside of the Abrahamic trio? I would agree that God has no use for faith in other gods besides Him, but faith is the foundation of worship.

Actually, I gather now that you are pointing to my faith in Christ as worth nothing in the eyes of God. Obviously I disagree.

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean blind faith in God is worth nothing in the eyes of God? Or do you mean blind faith in a god outside of the Abrahamic trio? I would agree that God has no use for faith in other gods besides Him, but faith is the foundation of worship.

Actually, I gather now that you are pointing to my faith in Christ as worth nothing in the eyes of God. Obviously I disagree.

No you gathered wrong. I am pointing to Blind faith whether it is in a idol or Alllah himself is worth very little. Allah calls us to reflect upon him and worship him without closing our eyes and exalted people who are truly learned.

The Prophet (pbuh) said one learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers.

Truth is clear from falsehood so there is no excuse for blind faith.

[Keltoi]

No you gathered wrong. I am pointing to Blind faith whether it is in a idol or Alllah himself is worth very little. Allah calls us to reflect upon him and worship him without closing our eyes and exalted people who are truly learned.

The Prophet (pbuh) said one learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers.

Truth is clear from falsehood so there is no excuse for blind faith.

Okay...that still leaves the little problem of "truth". I feel I know the truth, you feel you know the truth, and the little cult that worships Druidic elemental spirits think they know the truth. The Qu'ran does not convince me of its divine origin, and I would gather the Bible does not convince you of its accurate description of God's relationship with His people. That leaves a little problem doesn't it?

[AntiKarateKid]

Actually Keltoi. Now that I reread my posts, I think I have exaggerated nearly everything I have said. I am not trying to trash Christianity. It is a far better alternative to many of the things I have seen. Faith in Allah is worth something but it needs to be faith in the real God to make Him truly happy with our faith.


If I have insulted you, sorry. We are called upon to respect your faith and I feel that I have overstepped my bounds and violated the very laws I claim to be following. I have many Christian friends and am happy for their faith but wish that they would take that final step towards Islam. THAT is the whole point of all of my posts.



By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it in this situation. One of us is wrong, and we would find it out through this.

[Keltoi]

Actually Keltoi. Now that I reread my posts, I think I have exaggerated nearly everything I have said. I am not trying to trash Christianity. It is a far better alternative to many of the things I have seen. Faith in Allah is worth something but it needs to be faith in the real God to make Him truly happy with our faith.


If I have insulted you, sorry. We are called upon to respect your faith and I feel that I have overstepped my bounds and violated the very laws I claim to be following. I have many Christian friends and am happy for their faith but wish that they would take that final step towards Islam. THAT is the whole point of all of my posts.

You have not insulted me. I've grown skin of titanium around here. :D

I understand you wish all to embrace Islam, and that does not bother me. I wish all would give their lives to Christ. That is the nature of religion I suppose. From a personal perspective, I do not believe that all people of other religions outside of Christianity are going to Hell...it is not my place to assume any such thing. I worry about my own salvation.

[alcurad]

rather, some need a human-like deity so they can relate to him. In my belief this is the major point of contention.

[Grace Seeker]

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it in this situation. One of us is wrong, and we would find it out through this.

I appreciate your openness to developing friendships outside of Islam and your willingness to respect others faiths even as you invite those same people to accept what you believe to not only be superior, but also true. My concern is with how you say we are to determine truth.

Debating does not determine what is true. Debating is a contest of people matching their skills regarding debating; it only appears to be a contest between truth and error. The likelihood of finding truth through debate is no greater than the likelihood of finding truth through any other contest be it a duel, tug-of-war, or playing tiddly-winks. Of course it is helpful to have knowledge and be skilled in logic, but those things can be employed in the pursuit of error and falsehood, as they have been many times over the course of human history.

There are times that I feel compelled to debate because I see people making what I consider to be false statements or using faulty logic. But I must recognize that doing so in forums such as these is actually a futile exercise, I've never yet found any of those discussions to change minds that are already made up before the conversation starts. And all minds here appear to be predisposed toward or against a given set of beliefs from the beginning. So, have the debate to sharpen your ability to present your one set of beliefs, but don't fool yourself into thinking that such discussion really prove anything to another with an opposing view.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peacebe with you AntiKarateKid;

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it

If we debate with people who are different to us we might improve our debating skills.

If we care and support people who are different to us, we might improve our caring skills.

The truth will always exist despite all our debating skills, so we might just as well put our energy into caring for each other, despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peacebe with you AntiKarateKid;

If we debate with people who are different to us we might improve our debating skills.

If we care and support people who are different to us, we might improve our caring skills.

The truth will always exist despite all our debating skills, so we might just as well put our energy into caring for each other, despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

The truth may always exist but people may not realize it.
For example, say people all of a sudden started comparing eating the Eucharist to cannibalism. You as a Christian may want to refute those claims and put some energy into that too. I know that some debates are trivial but some are very important and to see two respected intellectuals put their arguments for all too see and hopefully for one idea to emerge is the meaning of a true debate. I have heard of people who have converted once the facts are laid out for them and both views are side by side.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it.

That’s a tricky stance to take, just suppose for a moment that I am a far better debater than you are, would that make the prophet pbuh. Wrong?

If you are a better debater than me does that make Jesus wrong?

In the spirit of striving to find ways to live with our differences.

Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;


That’s a tricky stance to take, just suppose for a moment that I am a far better debater than you are, would that make the prophet pbuh. Wrong?

If you are a better debater than me does that make Jesus wrong?

In the spirit of striving to find ways to live with our differences.

Eric

I truly believe that if I knew all the facts about what we were debating about, I would win. Truth cannot be budged by falsehood. Yet if I had no clue about what we were debating, you would seem to win.


Debating skill cannot mask the content of debate.

[coddles76]

No Need for debate, Just let the Almighty settle the issue right hear and now.....

Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They are being invited to the Book of Allah to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse. (Aali Imran 3:23)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path." (Al-Ma'idah 5:77)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Allah has spoken the truth; follow the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. he used to worship Allah Alone), and he was not of Al-Mushrikun." (See V:2:105) (Aali Imran 3:95)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" (Aali Imran 3:71)

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Al-Ma'idah 5:68)

[Keltoi]

No Need for debate, Just let the Almighty settle the issue right hear and now.....

Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They are being invited to the Book of Allah to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse. (Aali Imran 3:23)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path." (Al-Ma'idah 5:77)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Allah has spoken the truth; follow the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. he used to worship Allah Alone), and he was not of Al-Mushrikun." (See V:2:105) (Aali Imran 3:95)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" (Aali Imran 3:71)

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Al-Ma'idah 5:68)

If I thought that those verses were actually the words of God it might make a difference, but obviously I don't. Quoting the Qu'ran as evidence makes sense to you, but it doesn't make sense to a non-Muslim. If I quoted Christ from the New Testament would it matter to you?

[coddles76]

If I thought that those verses were actually the words of God it might make a difference, but obviously I don't. Quoting the Qu'ran as evidence makes sense to you, but it doesn't make sense to a non-Muslim. If I quoted Christ from the New Testament would it matter to you?

Allah SWT speaks to you again and asks you some questions to reflect upon...

O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad SAW present in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth in your own books)." (Aali Imran 3:70)

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Ayat of Allah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) while Allah is Witness to what you do?" (Aali Imran 3:98)

[Keltoi]

Allah SWT speaks to you again and asks you some questions to reflect upon...

O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad SAW present in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth in your own books)." (Aali Imran 3:70)

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Ayat of Allah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) while Allah is Witness to what you do?" (Aali Imran 3:98)

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:36

See how pointless this could get?

[coddles76]

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:36

See how pointless this could get?

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)

Allah SWT has an answer to all your concerns, Maybe you won't find things so pointless afterwards.

[Keltoi]

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)

Allah SWT has an answer to all your concerns, Maybe you won't find things so pointless afterwards.

...and the cycle continues

[coddles76]

...and the cycle continues

Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur'an) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allah by uttering that Allah has a wife and a son). (Al-Anbiya 21:18)

Glory be to Allah!!!!!

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid my friend,

Debating skill cannot mask the content of debate

You win the debate, I concede, now what?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship,

Eric

[coddles76]

You win the debate, I concede, now what?
Eric

Now open your heart and let Allah SWT Speak to you....

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

[Keltoi]

Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur'an) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allah by uttering that Allah has a wife and a son). (Al-Anbiya 21:18)

Glory be to Allah!!!!!

Hmmm...No Christian ever stated God had a "wife." So either God is wrong or God didn't "write" that verse.

[coddles76]

Hmmm...No Christian ever stated God had a "wife." So either God is wrong or God didn't "write" that verse.

My advice is when your at loss its more befitting for you that you don't pick at things that are fruitless.
As you can see the words are in brackets signifying the translators logic behind what the nature is of creating a Son (By a legal marriage of husband and wife in which offsprings are created).
The brackets were inserted by myself.

And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All*Hearer, the All*Knower. (Al-An'am 6:115)

[Keltoi]

My advice is when your at loss its more befitting for you that you don't pick at things that are fruitless.
As you can see the words are in brackets signifying the translators logic behind what the nature is of creating a Son (By a legal marriage of husband and wife in which offsprings are created).
The brackets were inserted by myself.

And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All*Hearer, the All*Knower. (Al-An'am 6:115)

So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?

[MustafaMc]

So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?

No, other translations do not have what Brother Coddles76 had in parenthesis. I believe that he said he himself inserted them for explanation.

Malik 21:18
Nay! We give falsehood a violent blow with the Truth to knock it out and behold! Falsehood vanishes away. Woe be to you, for all the false gods you have invented.

Yusuf Ali 21;18
Nay We hurl the Truth against falsehood and it knocks out its brain and behold falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us).

Pickthal 21:18
Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).

[Whatsthepoint]

This is a peculiar verse:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116

It seems the author of the Quran wasn't familiar with the teachings of mainstream Christianity..

[Fazl Ahmad]

This is a peculiar verse:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116

It seems the author of the Quran wasn't familiar with the teachings of mainstream Christianity..

Many Christians mistakenly assume that the sacred Quran is referring to the trinity concept (father, son, holy ghost) in this blessed ayah. However, this is not necessarily the case. As you may know many Christians, especially the Catholic sect, worship and pray to Mary, and along with Jesus (alaihi salatu wa salam) they have become two objects of devotion in orthodox Christianity.

In essence, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God. Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.

[Whatsthepoint]

Many Christians mistakenly assume that the sacred Quran is referring to the trinity concept (father, son, holy ghost) in this blessed ayah. However, this is not necessarily the case. As you may know many Christians, especially the Catholic sect, worship and pray to Mary, and along with Jesus (alaihi salatu wa salam) they have become two objects of devotion in orthodox Christianity.

In essence, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God. Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.

Catholic don't worship Mary. And by no means is she referred to as god, which is what the verse says:
Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.
If the verse was talking of objects of devotion, it should have mentioned saints as well, who Catholics also pray to.

[Fazl Ahmad]

Catholic don't worship Mary. And by no means is she referred to as god, which is what the verse says:
Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.
If the verse was talking of objects of devotion, it should have mentioned saints as well, who Catholics also pray to.

What Catholics consider Mary to be or not is besides the point. The fact of matter is, and you cannot deny, that many Christians pray to Mary, though they claim this is "intercession". For example you may be familiar with a prayer "Hail Mary", which is their equivalent of "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is the Greatest). If you go to their places of worship, you will see images and statues of Mary and other saints as well, but Mary is the most prominent after Jesus (alaihi salam) himself. Look what Allah holy and exalted is He says in the sacred Quran: Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful. (az-Zumar 39:3)

Definitely this blessed ayah is referring to the tendency of the unbelievers to worship saints and intermediaries which they claim is bringing them nearer to Allah. In a sense, Catholics praying to their "saints" is really no different than Hindus praying to their avatars and idols claiming it is bringing them to moksha (liberation with the divine essence) according to their religion.

[Whatsthepoint]

What Catholics consider Mary to be or not is besides the point. The fact of matter is, and you cannot deny, that many Christians pray to Mary, though they claim this is "intercession". For example you may be familiar with a prayer "Hail Mary", which is their equivalent of "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is the Greatest). If you go to their places of worship, you will see images and statues of Mary and other saints as well, but Mary is the most prominent after Jesus (alaihi salam) himself.
Definitely this blessed ayah is referring to the tendency of the unbelievers to worship saints and intermediaries which they claim is bringing them nearer to Allah. In a sense, Catholics praying to their "saints" is really no different than Hindus praying to their avatars and idols claiming it is bringing them to moksha (liberation with the divine essence) according to their religion.

The verse clearly says two gods! Mary is not a god, end of story. The Holy Spirit holds greater prominence than Mary, after all he is a god, Mary isn't.

[Fazl Ahmad]

The verse clearly says two gods! Mary is not a god, end of story. The Holy Spirit holds greater prominence than Mary, after all he is a god, Mary isn't.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, only I wish you were a little more open minded and try to see the beautiful teaching of the sacred Quran.

[Whatsthepoint]

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, only I wish you were a little more open minded and try to see the beautiful teaching of the sacred Quran.

I'm fine with the one god thing, seems much more logical than the trinity, I'm just saying this verse is wrong, it either mistakenly assesses Christians believe Mary is a part of the Trinity or that certain Christians view Mary as a god or that they pray to her, which they don't.
Jesus will be addressing Christians, so why would he be addressing them from a Muslim point of view, rather then theirs?
Imagine Muhammad coming to Earth saying he never told Muslims to worship the moon god. Even though some people claim Muslims worship the moon god, they in fact don't and it wouldn't make sense for Muhammad to address Muslims in that way.
Am I making sense?

[Fazl Ahmad]

I'm fine with the one god thing, seems much more logical than the trinity, I'm just saying this verse is wrong, it either mistakenly assesses Christians believe Mary is a part of the Trinity or that certain Christians view Mary as a god or that they pray to her, which they don't.
Jesus will be addressing Christians, so why would he be addressing them from a Muslim point of view, rather then theirs?
Imagine Muhammad coming to Earth saying he never told Muslims to worship the moon god. Even though some people claim Muslims worship the moon god, they in fact don't and it wouldn't make sense for Muhammad to tell them something like that.
Am I making sense?

Yes sir I see where you are coming from. But I really think you have to understand that Islam has a different standard and understanding of devotion than other religions. From our perspective, many Christians do make Mary into a god, even if they don't admit it or it isn't their intention. You know the saying, "a spade is a spade", you can call it anything you want, but you can never change the reality. The real point I am trying to make though is that you have to really consider the sacred Quran with an open mind and see what it is really trying to say rather than making quick judgments and dismissing it without second thought. Thanks.

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes sir I see where you are coming from. But I really think you have to understand that Islam has a different standard and understanding of devotion than other religions. From our perspective, many Christians do make Mary into a god, even if they don't admit it or it isn't their intention. You know the saying, "a spade is a spade", you can call it anything you want, but you can never change the reality. The real point I am trying to make though is that you have to really consider the sacred Quran with an open mind and see what it is really trying to say rather than making quick judgments and dismissing it without second thought. Thanks.

I can tell Muslims may feel Mary is a god, but:
1. Why aren't The Holy Spirit and the saints mentioned?
2. As I explained in my post (read it again), I don0t see why Jesus would address non-Muslims without the proper knowledge of Islam in an Islamic manner? Would that make sense?
After all, the Christians could simply reply that they never held Mary is a God. What would happen next? A theological debate between Christians and Jesus and possibly Allah?
I have given it a lot of thought and no matter how liberally I try to interpret it it still doesn't make sense.

[Fazl Ahmad]

I can tell Muslims may feel Mary is a god, but:
1. Why aren't The Holy Spirit and the saints mentioned?
2. As I explained in my post (read it again), I don0t see why Jesus would address non-Muslims without the proper knowledge of Islam in an Islamic manner? Would that make sense?
After all, the Christians could simply reply that they never held Mary is a God. What would happen next? A theological debate between Christians and Jesus and possibly Allah?
I have given it a lot of thought and no matter how liberally I try to interpret it it still doesn't make sense.

Yes sir thank you for being honest, and I think that if you ask questions instead of passing quick judgments you will be much more enlightened, and happier for it as well. As far as I can see, I believe that if you read the sacred Quran, from beginning to end, you will see the beautiful message of this special book and you will also find, insha Allah, that is makes perfect sense.

The Quran mentions many spiritual subjects in order to gently rebuke mistaken beliefs and misconceptions of other religions. For example, the sacred Quran mentions that Jesus (alaihi salam) was indeed strengthened by the holy spirit, as Christians believe, but than it also explains what exactly the holy spirit is:
Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from your Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims (an-Nahl 16:102)
The function of the holy spirit is to deliver revelation and strengthen the true believers with glad tidings. The holy spirit is in fact the angel Gabriel, the angel of revelation. So this is how the sacred Quran answers the misguided beliefs of other religions by not just attacking them, but also explaining the truth of the matter.

The sacred Quran does indeed mention the fatal error of saint-worshiping: They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (at-Tauba 9:31)

Allah Most High has rebuked the tendency of other religions for taking their spiritual leaders, priests, monks, rabbis, etc., as "gods", praying to them and ascribing qualities to them which are only befitting for Allah, the One and Only true God.

On the Day of Judgment, the Christians and others who took for objects of devotion their saints, the virgin Mary, and Jesus (alaihi salam) will have to answer for their fatal error. Allah will question them why did they pray to human beings? Why did they dedicate shrines to them? Why did they sacrifice animals in their name? Why did they give them titles and names which violate the sanctity of Allah and which go against monotheism? They did all these things with their full intention and despite the warning of all Allah's prophets to be devoted to Allah alone and forsake the devotion of everything else. So I don't believe there will be any "debate", but their will be lots of regret and gnashing of teeth on the part of the unbelievers.

[Grace Seeker]

The truth may always exist but people may not realize it.
For example, say people all of a sudden started comparing eating the Eucharist to cannibalism. You as a Christian may want to refute those claims and put some energy into that too. I know that some debates are trivial but some are very important and to see two respected intellectuals put their arguments for all too see and hopefully for one idea to emerge is the meaning of a true debate. I have heard of people who have converted once the facts are laid out for them and both views are side by side.

I agree that the idea that putting one's ideas out there for others to hear and compare side by side is of value. I also agree one way to do that is in the form of a debate. I still disagree that truth can be determined simply by determining who "wins" a debate:

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it.

If you look at history, I think you will end up agreeing with me that this is a poor way to determine what is truth. For instance, in the 4th century, there was a debate within the Church over the question of Jesus' divinity. That debate was "won" by those who affirm it. Yet, as a Muslim, surely you would say that the winning position is not true. Hence, if you still hold to the idea you originally presented that one can determine truth by having a debate and seeing who wins it, then you would have to hold that Jesus' divinity is true, for that is the side which won that debate. And if you reject that as true, then you will ultimately agree with me that we don't determine truth (but at best attempt to explore it) by means of debate.

[Grace Seeker]

Now open your heart and let Allah SWT Speak to you....

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

From a Christian perspective you border on blasphemy when you pretend that Allah speaks to us from the Qur'an. Even if Allah did speak to Muhammad, we have no basis for excepting any words that run contrary to the revelation of God made known to us in and through Jesus Christ as revealed in our scriptures.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:6-8)

[SixTen]

I dont agree with the notion that christians and muslims worship the same God.

[AntiKarateKid]

So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?

Keep in mind, the verses are also against polytheists who worship gods that resemble zeus etc who had wifes and sex with humans and ther gods.

Some verses pertain to Christianity but moreover the verses rail against polytheists.

[AntiKarateKid]

I agree that the idea that putting one's ideas out there for others to hear and compare side by side is of value. I also agree one way to do that is in the form of a debate. I still disagree that truth can be determined simply by determining who "wins" a debate:

If you look at history, I think you will end up agreeing with me that this is a poor way to determine what is truth. For instance, in the 4th century, there was a debate within the Church over the question of Jesus' divinity. That debate was "won" by those who affirm it. Yet, as a Muslim, surely you would say that the winning position is not true. Hence, if you still hold to the idea you originally presented that one can determine truth by having a debate and seeing who wins it, then you would have to hold that Jesus' divinity is true, for that is the side which won that debate. And if you reject that as true, then you will ultimately agree with me that we don't determine truth (but at best attempt to explore it) by means of debate.

Again, I was talking about the ideal debate. Debating with altered material or with improper evidence will yield improper results.

[AntiKarateKid]

This is a peculiar verse:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116

It seems the author of the Quran wasn't familiar with the teachings of mainstream Christianity..

I think that it is referring tot he fact that christians sometimes pray to Mary (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) for stuff. Like some people pray to saiints, when in reality these people were only human and cannot grant you things. Only Allah can. You pray to him and not Mary/Jesus (pbuh).

[MustafaMc]

I dont agree with the notion that christians and muslims worship the same God.

So, do you not believe that Muslims worship the One God that Jesus also worshipped as in the "Lord's Prayer" - Whom he referred to in the Bible as "Father"?

[AntiKarateKid]

So, do you not believe that Muslims worship the One God that Jesus also worshipped as in the "Lord's Prayer" - Whom he referred to in the Bible as "Father"?

What the prayer was originally mean is NOW said to include man god Isa.

Christianity with trinity. No.
Christianity without trinity. yes.

[MustafaMc]

What the prayer was originally mean is NOW said to include man god Isa.

The Lord's Prayer does not have ANY reference to Jesus (as). This was how Jesus (as) taught his disciples to pray - not to him, not to Mary, not to the saints, but rather to "Our Father in Heaven".

Matthew 6:9-13
Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.

[AntiKarateKid]

The Lord's Prayer does not have ANY reference to Jesus (as). This was how Jesus (as) taught his disciples to pray - not to him, not to Mary, not to the saints, but rather to "Our Father in Heaven".

Matthew 6:9-13
Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.

Sorry I think my bad grammar messed that lest sentence up. I meant what you said. I forgot that it only said "our father".

[Grace Seeker]

Many Christians mistakenly assume that the sacred Quran is referring to the trinity concept (father, son, holy ghost) in this blessed ayah. However, this is not necessarily the case. As you may know many Christians, especially the Catholic sect, worship and pray to Mary, and along with Jesus (alaihi salatu wa salam) they have become two objects of devotion in orthodox Christianity.
In essence, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God. Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.

Actually, I don't know this to be true. I know that many people make this assessment of both Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but I have never meant either a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian who actually thought of Mary as a divine personage. No doubt if you look hard enough for it you will find such, but I don't think that such aberrations are indicative of those two groups on the whole.


But I think that is a small part of what you were saying. I would like to affirm a part of your final paragraph and then ask a question of your last comment. the part I want to affirm is:

Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God.

I think we could all, from the perspective of our own traditions, say this --perhaps in exactly those words.

Regarding your final comment:

Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.

It is true that Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. And as you say, Islam considers this belief a violation of monotheism. My question has to do with the term "begotten", what do you understand is meant by that term? I ask, because I wonder if perhaps Muslims and Christians have different definitions of what it means to say that Jesus is the "begotten" son of God? If so, then don't we need to seek to understand each other's meaning before reject it as being false? So, what is your definition of "begotten" as you understand Christians to apply it to Jesus?

[Grace Seeker]

Again, I was talking about the ideal debate. Debating with altered material or with improper evidence will yield improper results.

It sounds like you only consider something a debate when the conclusions have already been conceeded away at the beginning. That might make for a nice forum discussion of like minded folks, but would hardly make for a true debate.

For myself I would agrue that the accuracy of the Biblical accounts of Jesus' life are more reliable than the version recorded in the Qur'an. But you see it just the opposite. Of course, the accusation that the other depends on altered material and improper evidence does not in itself make it true. So, how does one establish what is and is not reliable? The process for making that determination is every bit as important as what is determined. One needs to find a process that is acceptable to all involved or one cannot have a true debate to begin with.

[Whatsthepoint]

I think that it is referring tot he fact that christians sometimes pray to Mary (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) for stuff. Like some people pray to saiints, when in reality these people were only human and cannot grant you things. Only Allah can. You pray to him and not Mary/Jesus (pbuh).

That's an option, but I think its wrong, due to reasons previously stated by me and Grace Seeker.

[MustafaMc]

That's an option, but I think its wrong, due to reasons previously stated by me and Grace Seeker.

What matters is not whether you or we think that we are right, but rather how Allah (swt) sees it. We believe that the Qur'an is the literal Word of Allah and it says that Christians worship Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them) along with the One God, Allah. This is shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, and it is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state of disbelief.

[Grace Seeker]

What matters is not whether you or we think that we are right, but rather how Allah (swt) sees it. We believe that the Qur'an is the literal Word of Allah and it says that Christians worship Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them) along with the One God, Allah. This is shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, and it is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state of disbelief.

This assumes that your beliefs regarding the Qur'an being the literal word of Allah are true. Thus you can assert that even if Catholics don't believe they are worshipping Mary, that because Allah said so they in fact are.

Another possibility, is that Catholics are able to speak for themselves more accurately than anyone else, and that if the Qur'an asserts that what Catholic's do is to worship Mary when they in fact don't, then it must be in error; thus proving that it isn't the literal word of Allah as you believe it to be.

I guess, based on logic alone, there is another option, which would be that the Qur'an is the literal words of Allah, but that Allah doesn't always speak the truth. But, I'm not willing to concede that as a reasonable option, even if it does follow from a purely logical standpoint.

[coddles76]

From a Christian perspective you border on blasphemy when you pretend that Allah speaks to us from the Qur'an. Even if Allah did speak to Muhammad, we have no basis for excepting any words that run contrary to the revelation of God made known to us in and through Jesus Christ as revealed in our scriptures.

From a Muslims perspective these are the words of Allah SWT and never will I fear to express these words because the words of Allah SWT will never be exhausted. And with all due respect not even you can prevent the words of the almighty if though you reject it.

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind). "If the sea were ink for (writing) the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if we brought (another sea) like it for its aid." (Al-Kahf 18:109)


And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'an] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." (Aali Imran 3:55)

[coddles76]

So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?

No the christians main belief is that GOD begot a Son. How does one beget?

[AntiKarateKid]

This assumes that your beliefs regarding the Qur'an being the literal word of Allah are true. Thus you can assert that even if Catholics don't believe they are worshipping Mary, that because Allah said so they in fact are.

Another possibility, is that Catholics are able to speak for themselves more accurately than anyone else, and that if the Qur'an asserts that what Catholic's do is to worship Mary when they in fact don't, then it must be in error; thus proving that it isn't the literal word of Allah as you believe it to be.

I guess, based on logic alone, there is another option, which would be that the Qur'an is the literal words of Allah, but that Allah doesn't always speak the truth. But, I'm not willing to concede that as a reasonable option, even if it does follow from a purely logical standpoint.

Your argument rests on a very narrow definition of 'god'.

Here is a prayer TOWARD Mary

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!


Here is another MORE STRIKING ONE

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen


As far as a Muslim is concerned, I belong to God not Mary and ask God to guide me and my property and possession. Mary has no power to do this and prayers should be directed at Alllah not his servants.

You are praying to Mary or "crying unto her" and asking for mercy from her. The usage of god has a wider meaning than you are claiming.


Furthermore, don't act like this accusation of Mary worship is new and from Muslims only.

http://www.abcog.org/mary3.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm

Just a teeny bit of what can be found about Christians leveling this accusation against other Christians.

The fact is that your argument rests on a very narrow interpretation of what is referred to as god in the Quran.

[Keltoi]

No the christians main belief is that GOD begot a Son. How does one beget?

You are only asking the right question if you ask "What do you mean by "the only begotten Son of God?" I'll start by explaining what that doesn't mean. It does not mean God physically produced a child through human sexual intercourse. That is blasphemy. Nor does it mean that Christ, the Son of God, is a separate being that was "produced" by God.

The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above.

[coddles76]

The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above.

Yes thankyou for that clarification and confirmation on translations. I guess that settles that point about translators.

I also thankyou for also clarifying that the son of God is not really the son of god but is God himself. I won't go into how illogical and contradictory that sounds, I'll just let the readers of the thread work that out for themselves and draw there own conclusions but I will say they this so people can ponder a little.....
So John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Is meaning that God came to earth incarnate, walked along, talked, preached, gave some miracles then sacfrificed himself on the cross because of there human sins and didn't listen to him.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

The same God hears all our prayers, so why would the same God seemingly give each of us sincere, yet opposing beliefs?

Who can know the mind of God?

Romans 11

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen

In the spirit of searching for the merciful and loving God of alll mankind.

Eric

[coddles76]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

The same God hears all our prayers, so why would the same God seemingly give each of us sincere, yet opposing beliefs?

Who can know the mind of God?



In the spirit of searching for the merciful and loving God of alll mankind.

Eric

He Didn't the freethinking MAN did. He gave us ONE law and ONE way of life.

"Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam (Submission). Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. (Aali Imran 3:19)"

[glo]

So John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Is meaning that God came to earth incarnate, walked along, talked, preached, gave some miracles then sacfrificed himself on the cross because of there human sins and didn't listen to him.

I agree, coddles.
It truly must be one of the most amazing, perhaps even unbelievable stories ever told!
Why would God be willing to redeem the human race, which is so clearly unable to save itself by deeds alone?
Why would he do so through his own sacrifice?
We neither asked for such grace, nor do we deserve it!
But why doubt that God is able and willing to do such a thing?
God is who he is, and he does what he does. Who are we to question him? Who are we to be so proud that we think we can fathom him?

"Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam (Submission). Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. (Aali Imran 3:19)"

You see, just like people have the freedom to choose Islam as their path, so they have the freedom to choose a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
How amazing is that??! :)

As for the OP, I personally have no doubt that Muslims and Christians worship the same God ... even if our understanding of God is different - in some areas so much so that it doesn't seem like the same deity at all.
Yet, the God of Abraham is only ONE God.
Muslims worship him, Christians worship him. He is one and the same.
What do you think?

As to which worship God accepts (be that only one, both or neither) is not for us to decide. It is up to God's will, not to ours.
May none of us be so proud to assume that we are in God's favour! :-[

As my Muslims friends here say so beautifully:
God knows best. :statisfie

Salaam

[coddles76]

I agree, coddles.
It truly must be one of the most amazing, perhaps even unbelievable stories ever told!
Why would God be willing to redeem the human race, which is so clearly unable to save itself by deeds alone?
Why would he do so through his own sacrifice?
We neither asked for such grace, nor do we deserve it!
But why doubt that God is able and willing to do such a thing?
God is who he is, and he does what he does. Who are we to question him? Who are we to be so proud that we think we can fathom him?


You see, just like people have the freedom to choose Islam as their path, so they have the freedom to choose a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
How amazing is that??! :)

Thank you Glo I agree its the most amazing stories ever told.
Allah SWT mentions throughout the Whole Quran that he is WAY ABOVE his creation and anything we attribute to him. He describes himself in the highest of manners in the Quran and there is no STORY to be told that can associate to him because he is WAY ABOVE that. That is what I see as Amazing.

Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him! (Al-Anbiya 21:22)

And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him. (Al-Baqarah 2:116)

s for the OP, I personally have no doubt that Muslims and Christians worship the same God ... even if our understanding of God is different - in some areas so much so that it doesn't seem like the same deity at all.
Yet, the God of Abraham is only ONE God.
Muslims worship him, Christians worship him. He is one and the same.
What do you think?

As to which worship God accepts (be that only one, both or neither) is not for us to decide. It is up to God's will, not to ours.
May none of us be so proud to assume that we are in God's favour! :-[

As my Muslims friends here say so beautifully:
God knows best. :statisfie

Salaam

Thankyou once again and I agree that the god of Abraham is only ONE god.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a Straight Path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [i.e. the true Islamic Monotheism - to believe in One God (Allah i.e. to worship none but Allah, Alone)] and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (see V:2:105)." (Al-An'am 6:161)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)

[Fazl Ahmad]

Actually, I don't know this to be true. I know that many people make this assessment of both Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but I have never meant either a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian who actually thought of Mary as a divine personage. No doubt if you look hard enough for it you will find such, but I don't think that such aberrations are indicative of those two groups on the whole.

I find it quite confusing that many Christians pray to Mary for help, reciting her name on rosary beads, and furthermore venerate her with the title "Mother of God", yet claim that she isn't divine. Though they may not admit it, the reality is that many Christians have made Mary into a god.

Regarding your final comment: It is true that Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. And as you say, Islam considers this belief a violation of monotheism. My question has to do with the term "begotten", what do you understand is meant by that term? I ask, because I wonder if perhaps Muslims and Christians have different definitions of what it means to say that Jesus is the "begotten" son of God? If so, then don't we need to seek to understand each other's meaning before reject it as being false? So, what is your definition of "begotten" as you understand Christians to apply it to Jesus?

Islam objects to the belief that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, which means that he is divine sharing God's essence. This is what Muslims find to be offensive against the divine unity of Allah. If you study other pagan beliefs, you will find the concept of "begotten sons of God" is very common. Horus, Hercules, Bacchus, Mithra, etc., to name a few pagan deities which were regarded as begotten children of a father-like deity. Although Christianity's version God begetting a son sounds less scandalous, in reality it is the same idea and is completely alien to true monotheism, which is that Allah is One, He does not share His Power or essence, He has no offspring, nor is He the "son" of anyone.

[MustafaMc]

Furthermore, don't act like this accusation of Mary worship is new and from Muslims only.

If the Protestant Christians would be honest, they would admit the errors of the Catholic Christians in their worship of Mary and the saints instead of defending them. No Protestant prays to either Mary or the saints, nor does any Protestant church have a statue of Mary. No Protestant goes to his minister and says, "Father forgive me for I have sinned."

They defend what they don't agree with (it seems to me) because of the "us versus them" mentality. Just like brothers who fight among themselves, they vehemently defend the other when attacked by someone outside the family.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

its amazing that two different people worship God in two different ways yet claim they worship the same God.

one must recognise God to worship him properly, and until the trinity is dismissed one hasnt recognised God ! Allaah will surely give forms to those worshipped besides him on the day of judgement, and then people will see they worshipped others besides Allaah... may Allaah protect us from it

Ameen

[MustafaMc]

The same God hears all our prayers, so why would the same God seemingly give each of us sincere, yet opposing beliefs?

I don't think that other Christians would agree with you that the Muslim faith came from God, but rather from (to quote a prominent LI member) "a third string player who was working for the other side". No Muslim would agree that the Christian faith in the Deity and Sonship of Jesus (as) came from Allah (swt). To be blatantly honest, adherents of both religions think that the other religion was misled from the Plan of Salvation or from the Straight Way by Satan/Shaytan.

[Grace Seeker]

No the christians main belief is that GOD begot a Son. How does one beget?

Actually that is not the Christian's MAIN belief. Our main belief is that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected to bring us life.

But let me ask you that question in return. I should be most interested in your answer. As I have expressed elsewhere (earlier in this thread), I tend to think that Muslims have a completely different understanding of what the term "begotten" means in the context in which it is used in the Bible than Christians do. So, please, what do you think it is that Christians mean when we refer to Jesus in the creeds of the church as "begotten, not made" or in those English translations of the Bible that speak of Jesus as God's "only begotten son"?

For if you mean something different by it than what Christians do, then you complaint is not with genuine Christianity, but with some fabricated religion created by Islam that has nothing to do with Christian beliefs afterall.

[MustafaMc]

God is who he is, and he does what he does. Who are we to question him? Who are we to be so proud that we think we can fathom him?

I agree with you here that we can't fathom or comprehend the One God with our finite minds. That is why we rely upon the Qur'an and why you rely upon the Bible (I presume) to tell you the aspects of the One God that we need in order to worship Him or to have a "relationship with Him" from the Christian perspective.

You see, just like people have the freedom to choose Islam as their path, so they have the freedom to choose a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
How amazing is that??! :)

Yes, there is no compulsion in religion. People have been killed throughout history for being so "stupid" as to adhere to a religion that was contrary to that of those in power, but that same power could never force those people to believe differently.

As for the OP, I personally have no doubt that Muslims and Christians worship the same God ... even if our understanding of God is different - in some areas so much so that it doesn't seem like the same deity at all.

Again I agree. The Christian can't comprehend of God as being distinct and separate from Jesus and the Muslim can't comprehend Jesus as being Allah in the flesh. To the Muslim, Allah is above needing to eat and drink and then relieve Himself (astighfir'Allah) nor can we comprehend Allah being born of a woman and dying an ignoble death. I have always said that I pray to the same God that Jesus did as illustrated by the Lord's Prayer.

As to which worship God accepts (be that only one, both or neither) is not for us to decide. It is up to God's will, not to ours.
May none of us be so proud to assume that we are in God's favour! :-[

...but don't both of us really believe that we know what God's Will is through our respective religions?

As my Muslims friends here say so beautifully:
God knows best. :statisfie

Salaam

Yes, I would agree with that. However, for our own personal lives, I find it imperative to find out and submit to Allah's Will because the consequences of going contrary to the Will of Allah are indeed quite dire.

[Grace Seeker]

Your argument rests on a very narrow definition of 'god'.

Indeed. I do have a very narrow definition of God, for I believe in and worship only the one God who is creator of heaven and earth, who was incarnate on earth, and who is still an abiding presence in my life today. I know of and worship no other God than this one and only one God who is God of all the universe both seen and unseen.


I recognize that others may in their own minds create other gods of wood or stone, of material possessions or human pride, of love of country or family, of ideologies or philosophies, of ethics or moral codes, even of devotion to what they regard as sacred texts or personages, but none of these things will I recognize as God for their is only one God and that God is greater than anything that can be held in human hands, observed with human eyes or be conceived of in the minds of men or women. And while some may show great devotion to any of these things (including Mary, the holy scriptures of various religions, or any of many other various idols) they are not God, and just as one can be devoted to family, clan, or nation without worshipping it, so I can understand how some might express devotion to an individual like Mary without me feeling a need to accuse them of worshipping her.

I find it quite confusing that many Christians pray to Mary for help, reciting her name on rosary beads, and furthermore venerate her with the title "Mother of God", yet claim that she isn't divine. Though they may not admit it, the reality is that many Christians have made Mary into a god.

Do I feel that such devotion can tend toward excess? Yes. Could such excess lead one beyond mere devotion to something akin to worship? Without question. Has any person ever done this? No doubt.

I agree that there probably are Christians, especially some Catholic Christians, who have made Mary into a god, but I will not label the whole of the Catholic faith as worshippers of Mary because of the exuberance of a few, or even of many, individuals within it. I accept them at their word that they worship God, not God's creatures and Mary is included among those creatures.

In the teaching of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church it speaks first, foremost, and only of "the central role of Christ in our hope and in our life." Catholicism, like all of Christianity, is a Christ-centered faith. Is Mary important to Catholics? Most certainly, but what the Cathecism teaches regarding Mary is summed up in the opening sentence in the chapter that discusses her: "Everything faith teaches us about Mary is intended to draw us nearer to Jesus." With you, I happen to think that Catholics make too much about Mary, but I do understand that however venerated she may appear to be, and however much some (even many) within the Catholic Church may go overboard in their devotion, that Jesus and not Mary is the intended object of their worship.

Indeed, the Cathecism of the Catholic Church specifically says, "it would be wrong to say that it is absolutely necessary to be devoted to Mary in order to be saved." That is the essential aspect which we must remember. Catholicism embraces Mary, but it does not need Mary for Mary is not their god. For all the devotion to Mary, the emphasis remains focused on Jesus (at least for those who are good Catholics and have not corrupted the teachings of the Catholic Church to produce some sort of hybrid that perhaps does fall into the trap of excessive devotion that slips over into some unCatholic concept that mistakenly includes treating Mary as divine). Yes, Catholics see Mary as having an ability to make special intercession. And I understand you consider that concept shirk, but that you consider it shirk does not make it true that Catholics understand it as worship. (Additionally, I am still unconvinced that I see any significant difference between this view that Catholics have a Mary interceeding for them, and the Muslim concept of Muhammad making intercession for followers of Islam on the judgment day. But that is for another discussion.) But the Catholic understanding of the purpose for that intercession again is Christ-centric, not Mary-centric; Catholics understand Mary's intercession as "a valuable opportunity for grace to grow in Christ." And immediately after the Cathecism speak of the special devotion that Catholics have to Mary, the reminds the Catholic reader "devotion to Mary, of course, differes essentially fromt he cult of adoration whioch is given to God alone. Though Mary has sublime dignity as the Mother of God [read that as God-bearer, not biological generator], she is a fellow creature.... Personal devotion to Mary ought to imitate the patterns found in the Church's liturgy, in its joyful worship of God...in which the honoring of Mary leads us to a warmer love of her Son."

If the prayers you cited are not understood in the light of the above teachings, then you simply have not rightly understood Catholic theology and teaching regarding Mary, nor even the specific prayers you have cited.

As far as a Muslim is concerned, I belong to God not Mary and ask God to guide me and my property and possession.

The same is true for me as a Christian. Indeed, here is a prayer that I regularly pray:

I am no longer my own, but thine.
Put me to what thou wilt, rank me with whom thou wilt.
Put me to doing, put me to suffering.
Let me be employed for thee or laid aside for thee,
exalted for thee or brought low for thee.
Let me be full, let me be empty.
Let me have all things, let me have nothing.
I freely and heartily yield all things to thy pleasure and disposal.
And now, O glorious and blessed God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
thou art mine, and I am thine.
So be it.
And the covenant which I have made on earth,
let it be ratified in heaven.
Amen.

Furthermore, don't act like this accusation of Mary worship is new and from Muslims only.

I was not. I fully understand that there are many Protestant Christians who would make these same accusations. I think they are mistaken as well, and for the very same reasons.

[Grace Seeker]

And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him. (Al-Baqarah 2:116)

I remind you what you yourself reminded us only a short time ago in this very thread. The parts in parentheses are NOT in the Qur'an, they are commentary made by the translator. I will submit to you that the comments which interpret Christians to say that Allah has begotten a son means children or offspring, do not accurately reflect the reality of Christian teaching. This is why I have put the question forth, repeatedly asking, what it is that Muslims think Christians mean by saying that Jesus is "begotten"? Hint: It does NOT mean offspring as this interpreter mistakenly implies.

In fact, should you ever understand the concept of generation that is being employed in the Christian understanding of this term, you would also understand that Christian theology does NOT actually violate the idea expressed in this verse.
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)[/QUOTE] I submit to you that those who think the story of Jesus' incarnation violates this passage do not yet understand the message of incarnation, but are tilting at windmills.

[Grace Seeker]

To the Muslim, Allah is above needing to eat and drink and then relieve Himself (astighfir'Allah) nor can we comprehend Allah being born of a woman and dying an ignoble death.

I can't comprehend of a god "needing" to do these things either. Can the Muslim consider the possibility that the great God who created the universe (for he certainly didn't "need" to do that either) might nevertheless "choose" to do them?

[Keltoi]

If the Protestant Christians would be honest, they would admit the errors of the Catholic Christians in their worship of Mary and the saints instead of defending them. No Protestant prays to either Mary or the saints, nor does any Protestant church have a statue of Mary. No Protestant goes to his minister and says, "Father forgive me for I have sinned."

They defend what they don't agree with (it seems to me) because of the "us versus them" mentality. Just like brothers who fight among themselves, they vehemently defend the other when attacked by someone outside the family.

I don't believe it is a matter of "defending" Catholics. The issue is what does the Catholic Church believe? How would a Catholic describe his or her faith?
Martin Luther spoke very clearly about his perspective on Roman Catholic Mariology:

Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"
Martin Luther

John Calvin even went so far as to order all paintings and statues of Mary to be burned or destroyed in Geneva. That was in 1535 I believe. The Cathechism of Calvin outlawed Marian veneration and also punished people for carrying rosaries, observing a saints day, and the possession of holy relics.

So Protestants do indeed disagree with Roman Catholics on this issue. Primarily because the role of the Comforter and Redeemer seems to have been placed not on Christ but Mary. However, in the context of this discussion, the issue is whether Catholics "worship" Mary. That is obviously not their doctrine. That is my only defense of Catholics on this issue. I and other Protestants may not agree with some of the more traditional practices within Catholicism, but on the fundamental areas of doctrine we are in agreement.

[AntiKarateKid]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;996598]Indeed. I do have a very narrow definition of God, for I believe in and worship only the one God who is creator of heaven and earth, who was incarnate on earth, and who is still an abiding presence in my life today. I know of and worship no other God than this one and only one God who is God of all the universe both seen and unseen.


Words such as these need to be translated into action. Again, before writing a declaration of faith, it would help to actually read what I said. We were discussing what "god" NOT "GOD" the Quran was referring to. Your argument about the literary usage of the word "god" in that verse of the Quran fails because it is narrow. Now, onto what "God" we believe in, yes that is narrow which is why in Islam it excludes the Prophet Isa (pbuh) and the Holy spirit.

You may say that you worship God but think about it. Hindus may say they worship the one person they think created the universe. You with Jesus/Holy Spirit/ Father may SAY that you worship the one creator but again words have to be translated into action. Allah is Allah who is one and not 3 in one etc etc.


Onto the main topic. Your prayers clearly show a worship - esque attitude toward Mary. Adoration or veneration of her DOES NOT INCLUDE asking for forgiveness or asking for her to protect you or stating that you are hers. SHe herself offered herself to God and you are offering yourself to her.

Your words are not matching with your beliefs no matter how you cut it. I suggest, if I may be so bold, taking another look at your prayers and ask yourself if they are directed toward whom you want them to be directed.

Your own prayers are so misleading that other Christians and faiths have accused you of venerating Gods followers instead of Him. That is something to think about. Indeed even your own people spend more time praying to patron saint of X and Mary when what they pray for lay with God alone.

That is prayer to Gods servants not him no matter which way you cut it. Even if your doctrine may want to state otherwise, your prayers are self evident in their nature.

[MustafaMc]

However, in the context of this discussion, the issue is whether Catholics "worship" Mary. That is obviously not their doctrine.

I agree with you that Catholics don't see that what they do as being worshipping Mary or the saints, but what matters is how Allah sees it. On that we will just have to "wait and see" come Judgment Day. On that Day we will also know if Jesus was God in the flesh or if he was just a human with no Divinity.

[AhlaamBella]

What about "Hail Mary full of grace etc..."? Isn't that classed as worship? That's how I took it as a little girl when I was in church. We'd also say it every morning in assemberly. We mentioned Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) more than God.

[Whatsthepoint]

I agree with you that Catholics don't see that what they do as being worshipping Mary or the saints, but what matters is how Allah sees it. On that we will just have to "wait and see" come Judgment Day. On that Day we will also know if Jesus was God in the flesh or if he was just a human with no Divinity.

But what is the point of Jesus telling them he never told them to worship Mary as a god (which he didn't according to the the Bible), even though they believe otherwise.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Jesus to tell them that they did worship Mary?

[glo]

What about "Hail Mary full of grace etc..."? Isn't that classed as worship? That's how I took it as a little girl when I was in church. We'd also say it every morning in assemberly. We mentioned Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) more than God.

I am not a Catholic, but here is the full prayer you refer to:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Does it really sound like worship to you?
Or does it not just speak about Mary in revered and respectful tones - not unlike the Qu'ran speaks about her?

This prayer isn't a worship of Mary, but instead asks Mary to intercede to God for the person praying.

We have had discussions on this topic very recently in the 'Questions for Christians' thread, if you want to check there.
Christians believe that we can address God in prayer directly, but Catholics also ask saints to plead to God on their behalf. It would probably be better if we had a Catholic here who could explain better the reason for this tradition.

Whatever we may think of the concept of going through a saint as an intercessor, rather than addressing God directly, this practice does not constitute the worship of Mary.
If you were left with that impression as a child, you were either misinformed or not correctly instructed.

The word "'hail' literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary

[AhlaamBella]

This prayer isn't a worship of Mary, but instead asks Mary to intercede to God for the person praying.

Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.

[Keltoi]

Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.

Think about it this way. As Christians we often say to one another "pray for me." Does that mean we believe that person worthy of worship as God? No, it is simply asking a person to pray for you, to intercede on your behalf.

It is the same principle with the saints and Mary. As a Catholic, they are asking Mary or a saint to pray for them, to intercede. Personally I do not find the practice to be necessary. That is why I'm a Protestant and not a Catholic.

[AhlaamBella]

It is the same principle with the saints and Mary. As a Catholic, they are asking Mary or a saint to pray for them, to intercede.

So we're back to the worship point. In thinking Mary can hear and answer our prayers that is giving her a God-like status

[Keltoi]

So we're back to the worship point. In thinking Mary can hear and answer our prayers that is giving her a God-like status

Mary's status is one area in which Protestants and Catholics will never agree. However, that status, to a Catholic, does not equal worship. I can say so, you can say so, but Catholics themselves will never state they worship Mary or the saints.

[AhlaamBella]

I see. Thank you :)

[MustafaMc]

But what is the point of Jesus telling them he never told them to worship Mary as a god (which he didn't according to the the Bible), even though they believe otherwise.

The point is that Allah is questioning Jesus about whether or not he told his followers to worship him and his mother. What follows is Jesus' response to Allah. We believe that Jesus will disassociate himself on that Day from those who worshipped him.

[AntiKarateKid]

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen


Yes. This most certainly sounds like worship.


Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!


Another Yes for worship.



The answer is simple actually. To the Christians saying that they don't worship Mary, your prayers are saying something else. It is a stretch to say that this is not a type of worship.

You offer your self to her.
You say that you are her property.
You cry out to her.
And ask for her mercy.

W-O-R-S-H-I-P

[Whatsthepoint]

These are Catholic prayers, not all Christians are Catholic, only one half are, and not all Catholics say those prayers.

[AntiKarateKid]

These are Catholic prayers, not all Christians are Catholic, only one half are, and not all Catholics say those prayers.

They are Christian prayers and I applaud Christians who have turned away from such worship. They are one more step towards Islam.

[AhlaamBella]

not all Catholics say those prayers.

Really? How come? Do they believe it's worship as well and disagree with it? If so, doesn't that mean they are questioning their own faith?

[Whatsthepoint]

The point is that Allah is questioning Jesus about whether or not he told his followers to worship him and his mother. What follows is Jesus' response to Allah. We believe that Jesus will disassociate himself on that Day from those who worshipped him.

That's the best point so far, but it still doesn't make complete sense.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

I truly believe that if I knew all the facts about what we were debating about, I would win.

You are implying you do not have all the facts, and if you don't know all the facts, why are you debating? Its a bit like saying I could win the lottery if only I knew the numbers in advance.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding,

Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

That's the best point so far, but it still doesn't make complete sense.

Pope Benedict
"People who pray the Rosary are appealing to the Mother of Mercy and so merciful is She, that She's inclined to aid spontaneously, those who suffer. She is absolutely incapable of refusing help to those who invoke Her. The Rosary prayed daily is the most fitting formula for praying and meditating."


Just give it up. This is not homage or veneration. This is prayer for the type of help only God can give. What more proof do you need???? Oh .. you want the Bible to call Mary "God"... riiiiight just like it calls Jesus "God" right?


While your're at it see the boons of praying toward Mary!

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhod...omisesRsry.htm

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;


You are implying you do not have all the facts, and if you don't know all the facts, why are you debating? Its a bit like saying I could win the lottery if only I knew the numbers in advance.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding,

Eric

I'm not a scholar. Thats all I am saying. Scholar vs scholar with literary proofs = eye opener. One states something, the other attempts to disprove it. Falsehoods will show sooner or later when the convoluted and ridiculous defenses of falsehood are readily seen.

[Whatsthepoint]

Pope Benedict
"People who pray the Rosary are appealing to the Mother of Mercy and so merciful is She, that She's inclined to aid spontaneously, those who suffer. She is absolutely incapable of refusing help to those who invoke Her. The Rosary prayed daily is the most fitting formula for praying and meditating."


Just give it up. This is not homage or veneration. This is prayer for the type of help only God can give. What more proof do you need???? Oh .. you want the Bible to call Mary "God"... riiiiight just like it calls Jesus "God" right?

No, it's not praying Mary for help, it's asking Mary to pray to or ask God to help.
I'd like you to find the slightest indication of Mary being god in the Bible, on indication, that's it.

[Grace Seeker]

Onto the main topic. Your prayers clearly show a worship - esque attitude toward Mary. Adoration or veneration of her DOES NOT INCLUDE asking for forgiveness or asking for her to protect you or stating that you are hers. SHe herself offered herself to God and you are offering yourself to her.

Your words are not matching with your beliefs no matter how you cut it. I suggest, if I may be so bold, taking another look at your prayers and ask yourself if they are directed toward whom you want them to be directed.

Your own prayers are so misleading that other Christians and faiths have accused you of venerating Gods followers instead of Him. That is something to think about. Indeed even your own people spend more time praying to patron saint of X and Mary when what they pray for lay with God alone.

That is prayer to Gods servants not him no matter which way you cut it. Even if your doctrine may want to state otherwise, your prayers are self evident in their nature.

Really? Please point out any of my prayers, my words, or my doctrines that do any of the things you suggest. Show me one time, not just in this thread, but any place on this entire forum where I have ever "offer[ed] [my]self to her [Mary]."

I think you mis-speak.

[Grace Seeker]

What about "Hail Mary full of grace etc..."? Isn't that classed as worship? That's how I took it as a little girl when I was in church. We'd also say it every morning in assemberly. We mentioned Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) more than God.

If so, then you are suggesting that the angel Gabriel that God sent to reveal to Mary that she was chosen to bear Jesus was not just delivering a message but worshipping Mary, for that is where those words come from.

Luke 1

26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

[Whatsthepoint]

Really? How come? Do they believe it's worship as well and disagree with it? If so, doesn't that mean they are questioning their own faith?

They don't choose not to use these prayers because they think its a form of worship, they choose to pray to God directly, and if they pray to Mary they may choose a different wording.

[AhlaamBella]

and if they pray to Mary they may choose a different wording.

So, they do pray to Mary?

[AntiKarateKid]

Really? Please point out any of my prayers, my words, or my doctrines that do any of the things you suggest. Show me one time, not just in this thread, but any place on this entire forum where I have ever "offer[ed] [my]self to her [Mary]."

I think you mis-speak.

I think you mis-understand. You stated the Christians..CHRISTIANS do not pray to Mary like she is a god ( notice the lower case). Here are prayers showing people asking of HER what the should be asking of God ( capital here). You say that you have never done this? Good! My point is not to show that YOU were doing this but rather to show that Many Christians do this. As for the people who choose not to use these prayers and try to pray to Allah directly.. good for you. You are 1 step towards Islam because you realize that you should be directing thsoe prayers toward God and not Mary.

[Whatsthepoint]

So, they do pray to Mary?

Yes, but not pray as in ask her for help but pray as in ask her to intercede.

[Grace Seeker]

Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.

I agree, it is the key word. Of course, one can go directly to God. And in my humble opinion going directly makes all the sense in the world. But I have to admit that what makes sense to me doesn't always to othes. What they do is not contrary the Christian teachings (at least I don't think so), so while it is unnecessary doesn't make it any more wrong than me asking my neighbor to interceed and offer prayers on my behalf either, or the Muslim who asks Muhammad to interceed for him/her at the time of the resurrection at the final judgment. Intercession simply is not the same as worship. If it is, then both Catholics and Muslims have something to be concerned about. Thank God I'm neither.

Yes, but not pray as in ask her for help but pray as in ask her to intercede.

To my understanding, these terms really mean pretty much the same thing. Intercession is just asking someone else to help you with your prayers or whatever it is your are praying for. In the case of Catholics who pray for Mary to intercede for them, they are asking for her to help them in petitioning for God's help. Mary's help is limited to offering up more prayers, while God actually effects the answer to those prayers. Some Catholics may think that it is Mary who answers their prayers, but they are wrong and are giving her credit for work that is done not by her, but by God. It is sort of like me thanking the receptionist at the auto store for seeing to it that my car got repaired. She just sent the order to the shop mechanics who did the real work, but I still thank her as she is the one that served as my conduit to them. Fortunately, as Rose asked above, we don't actually have to use middlemen to approach God.

[AntiKarateKid]

No, it's not praying Mary for help, it's asking Mary to pray to or ask God to help.
I'd like you to find the slightest indication of Mary being god in the Bible, on indication, that's it.

It clearly says that SHE is inclined to aid spontaneously. Not ask God to aid them.

let me readdress the main point of contention. You said that Christians don't see Mary as a god. Yet I have shown you that prayers such as these show similarities to worship. Is it not enough for you that even Christians think that some prayers are approaching or at god level devotion? Even if people do not MEAN to pray to her as a god, these things treat her like one. Allah has forbidden this and stated that you should address HIM for these things.

My point stands and I don't need to cite from the Bible.

[AhlaamBella]

or the Muslim who asks Muhammad to interceed for him/her at the time of the resurrection at the final judgment.

lol I had to laugh at this bit. The difference between us asking for intercession is that the prophet p.b.u.h will be there. We won't be praying. The prophet p.b.u.h is dead. as is Mary. We cannot contact either. In attempting to do so could be classed as worship.

[Grace Seeker]

I'm not a scholar. Thats all I am saying. Scholar vs scholar with literary proofs = eye opener. One states something, the other attempts to disprove it. Falsehoods will show sooner or later when the convoluted and ridiculous defenses of falsehood are readily seen.

And yet you seem to continually miss them even as they are presented right in front of your face.

[Whatsthepoint]

It clearly says that SHE is inclined to aid spontaneously. Not ask God to aid them.

let me readdress the main point of contention. You said that Christians don't see Mary as a god. Yet I have shown you that prayers such as these show similarities to worship. Is it not enough for you that even Christians think that some prayers are approaching or at god level devotion?

My point stands and I don't need to cite from the Bible.

As I said, those are Catholic prayers, written by humans, only Catholic use them and they represent half the World's Christian population.
No Catholic nor any other Christians believe Mary is a god, Catholics will even admit their admiration of Mary doesn't come from the Bible but from their Tradition.
There are prayers to saints, to guardian angels, to the Holy Spirit etc, that may appear as worship, why doesn't the Quran address those?
Why does the Quran mention Mary, who nobody claims is a god and not the Holy Spirit who Christians actually believe is a god?

[AntiKarateKid]

lol I had to laugh at this bit. The difference between us asking for intercession is that the prophet p.b.u.h will be there. We won't be praying. The prophet p.b.u.h is dead. as is Mary. We cannot contact either. In attempting to do so could be classed as worship.

True that. He ( pbuh) will only be there to speak for us, not granting us powers or divine protection from him, that is from Allah.

[coddles76]

Actually that is not the Christian's MAIN belief. Our main belief is that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected to bring us life.

But let me ask you that question in return. I should be most interested in your answer. As I have expressed elsewhere (earlier in this thread), I tend to think that Muslims have a completely different understanding of what the term "begotten" means in the context in which it is used in the Bible than Christians do. So, please, what do you think it is that Christians mean when we refer to Jesus in the creeds of the church as "begotten, not made" or in those English translations of the Bible that speak of Jesus as God's "only begotten son"?

For if you mean something different by it than what Christians do, then you complaint is not with genuine Christianity, but with some fabricated religion created by Islam that has nothing to do with Christian beliefs afterall.

Thankyou Grace Seeker,

A very well known member in faith has helped with the understanding and has clarified it for me. So to answer your question above, this is what I now understand thanks to the member in faith....

"The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above."

So thanks once again to the members clarification I now understand the christians view is that Jesus is not really the Son of god but is God himself who came in the flesh and walked the earth as part of his creation.

[Grace Seeker]

Thankyou Grace Seeker,

A very well known member in faith has helped with the understanding and has clarified it for me. So to answer your question above, this is what I now understand thanks to the member in faith....

"The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above."

So thanks once again to the members clarification I now understand the christians view is that Jesus is not really the Son of god but is God himself who came in the flesh and walked the earth as part of his creation.

Coddles, thank-you for listening. I figure that Muslims consider that idea just as much shirk as the other, but at least we can be accused of shirk for the right reason. Whoever helped you with that understanding got it exactly right.

Are you interested in where the term "begotten" came from, and why it was chosen in some of the older translations? It won't change any of your basic beliefs, but it might help with some of the nuances of the Christian understanding of the Trinity.

[coddles76]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;996893]Coddles, thank-you for listening. I figure that Muslims consider that idea just as much shirk as the other, but at least we can be accused of shirk for the right reason. Whoever helped you with that understanding got it exactly right.
QUOTE]

Thankyou Grace Seeker,
I always listen to the christians points of explanation and I also thank the member who gave me this explanation. It helps me to strengthen my faith in the true Way of life and Deen of Allah SWT. I have already thanked you before for that and I also thank this member aswell.
I also thankyou for confirming the explanation. I will now allow the people who read this thread draw there own conclusions of what they think of God walking amongst us and whether they think this is a degrading of his almighty attributes.

Are you interested in where the term "begotten" came from, and why it was chosen in some of the older translations? It won't change any of your basic beliefs, but it might help with some of the nuances of the Christian understanding of the Trinity.

Feel free to explain it to me, once again I like to listen and strengthen my faith.

[openminded]

Muslims say everyone else is going to hell,christians vice versa everyone slanders each others religion every religion has there points to show there religion is right and the others is wrong end of the day if God is the most mercifull why would god make mankind in order to send the minority to heaven and the majority to to hell by the way i'm muslim so dont think i'm here to anger muslims or slander the koran its just my opinion anf to tell the truth you have to admit it makes sense

[Fazl Ahmad]

Assalamu alaikum

Muslims respect and believe in all the prophets which Allah sent for the guidance of mankind. We especially hold Jesus (alaihi salam) is high esteem and regard him as a pious messenger of Allah. I think Muslims and Christians can become united in our belief in Jesus and in his message - his true message. Jesus was not divine, and in fact he emphasized that he was just a human being. According to the bible, once a rich person came to Jesus and addressed him as "Good Teacher", to which Jesus replied:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone" (Mark 10:18)

Some Christian apologists claim this verse is not a clear and direct statement of Jesus claiming he is not divine. However, if you read the verse in context, you will find that the rich man talking to Jesus stops calling him "good teacher" and refers to him only as "teacher"

"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." (Mark 10:20)

So if Jesus was affirming his divinity, why this particular companion of his stop referring to him as "Good teacher" and simply called him "teacher" when Jesus said only God is good?

[Grace Seeker]

Assalamu alaikum

Muslims respect and believe in all the prophets which Allah sent for the guidance of mankind. We especially hold Jesus (alaihi salam) is high esteem and regard him as a pious messenger of Allah. I think Muslims and Christians can become united in our belief in Jesus and in his message - his true message. Jesus was not divine, and in fact he emphasized that he was just a human being. According to the bible, once a rich person came to Jesus and addressed him as "Good Teacher", to which Jesus replied:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone" (Mark 10:18)

Some Christian apologists claim this verse is not a clear and direct statement of Jesus claiming he is not divine. However, if you read the verse in context, you will find that the rich man talking to Jesus stops calling him "good teacher" and refers to him only as "teacher"

"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." (Mark 10:20)

So if Jesus was affirming his divinity, why this particular companion of his stop referring to him as "Good teacher" and simply called him "teacher" when Jesus said only God is good?

I can think of multiple reasons:
1) The man was being challenged to make a statemen of faith that he did believe in Jesus as God and the man was not willing to do so.
2) The man didn't get Jesus' point at all, and after being excessive in his initial salutation, reverted to a more mundane form for the remainder of the conversation. I see this as common practice between lots of people. I have a friend who I call my best friend, and I might introduce him that way to someone on an initial greeting, but I don't continue to repeat the adjective after that every time I refer to him as my friend.

There are also other reasons that Jesus might have questioned his use of the word "good" beyond trying to say that he should not have referred to Jesus as good. In fact I don't think that was Jesus' point at all.

[Grace Seeker]

if God is the most mercifull why would god make mankind in order to send the minority to heaven and the majority to to hell

I won't speak for Islam, but according to Christian theology he didn't.

Christians believe God made mankind for the express purpose to enjoy fellowship with him forever. Mankind turned its collective back on God and walked away from that fellowship. This was an act of mankind's free will, not God's will. In Christ, God entered mankind's world in order to provide a way for every human being back to God. Only those that reject that way are left to continue on the path they have already started down when they turned their back on God and live without God, and thus end up in hell.

Note that in the Christian understanding God offers redemption to all men, it is only those who refuse this offer to end up in hell condemned not so much by God, but by their own rejection for of God and then of his offer of redemption from the path of destructiion they entered out of their own willful disobedience. to God's will.

[glo]

Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.

As a Protestant I complete agree with you.
I am in direct relationship with God - no middlemen needed. :statisfie
I can speak to and ask God directly anytime and anywhere.
As far as I understand, both Protestants and Catholics believe this.

As I said in my previous post:

We have had discussions on this topic very recently in the 'Questions for Christians' thread, if you want to check there.
Christians believe that we can address God in prayer directly, but Catholics also ask saints to plead to God on their behalf.

As Keltoi said in another post, it isn't really that different to me asking another believer to pray (make dua) for me. That's not a strange concept in Islam either, is it??

So we're back to the worship point. In thinking Mary can hear and answer our prayers that is giving her a God-like status

I don't think I have ever heard anybody suggest that Mary an answers prayer ... only that she intercedes to God on the person's behalf.

Salaam

[Fazl Ahmad]

Mary is dead and her body has mingled with dust. Nevermind answering prayers, she does not even have the power to hear them.

[AhlaamBella]

she does not even have the power to hear them.

That is my point. People seem to be missing it :D

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I am a Catholic and find it a great sense of joy working and praying with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists and others. We encourage each other when we go out into the community as Street Pastors, trying to bring a little peace into our community.

I find it a sadness that we are not able to pray and work alongside non- Christians at the moment.

I have no further comments as to how I pray as a Catholic, I search for a relationship with God and my neighbours, whoever they may be.

Blessings and peace be with you all

Eric

[AhlaamBella]

I find it a sadness that we are not able to pray and work alongside non- Christians at the moment.

Muslims feel the same way. We all have one and the same God. Yet we can't find peace and understanding together. knowledge is the killer of ignorance, but at the moment relgions can't come together peacefully.

[crayon]

As a Protestant I complete agree with you.

I thought you were Catholic?... Or maybe I'm confusing you with someone else..hmm.

[MustafaMc]

I now understand the christians view is that Jesus is not really the Son of god but is God himself who came in the flesh and walked the earth as part of his creation.

...but why do Christians call Jesus (as) the Son of God? They often end their prayers "...In the name of your Son, Jesus". How can an entity be the "son of someone" and at the same time be that "someone"?

[MustafaMc]

not able to pray and work alongside non- Christians at the moment.

The reason for Muslims not joining Christians in prayer is that Protestants pray "in the name of Jesus", Catholics pray "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit", while Muslims pray "in the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate". I am afraid that you don't see the distinction that I see, but Muslims don't associate others with Allah in prayer.

I suppose when you say work, that you mean charitable activities. From my perspective, Christian charities are almost always associated with "spreading the Gospel" which is something that Muslims can't support.

[glo]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I am a Catholic and find it a great sense of joy working and praying with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists and others. We encourage each other when we go out into the community as Street Pastors, trying to bring a little peace into our community.

I find it a sadness that we are not able to pray and work alongside non- Christians at the moment.

I have no further comments as to how I pray as a Catholic, I search for a relationship with God and my neighbours, whoever they may be.

Blessings and peace be with you all

Eric

I love and admire your sincere faith, Eric.

God bless. :)

[Grace Seeker]

Mary is dead and her body has mingled with dust. Nevermind answering prayers, she does not even have the power to hear them.

That is my point. People seem to be missing it :D

We don't miss it. That's an Islamic view. One that we Christians don't happen to share. While we agree Mary's body is dust, that doesn't mean that Mary is dead and exists no more.

We believe that deceased Christians having received eternal life as a gift of God are in fact still very much alive; in fact, they are more alive than they have ever been before. We don't believe that there is such a wide gulf between the physical world and the spiritual world that there is not intermingling of them. Again, we believe just the opposite.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is a divine presence in our lives so that we don't wait till after death to meet God, but that God comes and enters into our lives in the here and now. We believe that when we are "saved" that we are born again into a new and eternal life granted us in Father in the power of the mysterious union we have with him through the Son. So, we have already entered into this life now through faith and need not wait till we die to experience eternity. As such, death is just the slipping off of this mortal coil. The body is not us any more than the clothes we wear are us. And we we are freed of it, and thus when we are released of it we are freed to live in ways we have yet to experience in this more restricted physical experience of life. We see beyond the flesh to the spiritual side of life all the time, so why would not someone who has already experienced that not be just as alive as before. As I said before, they actually are more so.

[AhlaamBella]

^^ A human's typical denial and fear of death.

[Keltoi]

^^ A human's typical denial and fear of death.

Actually it is just the opposite. Traditionally Christians have had very little fear of death.

[Grace Seeker]

^^ A human's typical denial and fear of death.

I thought Muslims believed in the resurrection as well. While you believe that the time between death and the resurrection is spent in a state of non-existence moldering in the grave. We simply see God as being greater than that. That since he created us first and foremost as spiritual beings, that there is no limit to the life that God can give us, both in this present world and in the world to come.

Funny, how the Muslim call to prayer proclaim's God's greatness, but Muslims continually back off from allowing God to exercise that power beyond what the limits of their own imagination.

[AhlaamBella]

I thought Muslims believed in the resurrection as well. While you believe that the time between death and the resurrection is spent in a state of non-existence moldering in the grave. We simply see God as being greater than that. That since he created us first and foremost as spiritual beings, that there is no limit to the life that God can give us, both in this present world and in the world to come.

Funny, how the Muslim call to prayer proclaim's God's greatness, but Muslims continually back off from allowing God to exercise that power beyond what the limits of their own imagination.

Oh rubbish!

Listen, your giving humans a way to still be connected to this life. refusing to let it go.

[AntiKarateKid]

I thought Muslims believed in the resurrection as well. While you believe that the time between death and the resurrection is spent in a state of non-existence moldering in the grave. We simply see God as being greater than that. That since he created us first and foremost as spiritual beings, that there is no limit to the life that God can give us, both in this present world and in the world to come.

Funny, how the Muslim call to prayer proclaim's God's greatness, but Muslims continually back off from allowing God to exercise that power beyond what the limits of their own imagination.

Going along with this imagination idea, wouldnt it be even greater if God had a daughter too? or that God had brothers and sisters ( ala Hinduism) who were seperate yet one? Or maybe a Pantheon of ones for each element?

Our imagination follows what God told us and stays away from what God has forbidden us from. I will not try to imagine God crying or feeling depressed like a human any more than him having a son or a 3 in one personality.

You are using imagination as a defense for Christian belief. I agree though, your beliefs did spawn from the imagination of mislead scholars and priests.

[AntiKarateKid]

Actually it is just the opposite. Traditionally Christians have had very little fear of death.

Just like the Jewish and Muslim martyrs.

[Keltoi]

Going along with this imagination idea, wouldnt it be even greater if God had a daughter too? or that God had brothers and sisters ( ala Hinduism) who were seperate yet one? Or maybe a Pantheon of ones for each element?

Our imagination follows what God told us and stays away from what God has forbidden us from. I will not try to imagine God crying or feeling depressed like a human any more than him having a son or a 3 in one personality.

You are using imagination as a defense for Christian belief. I agree though, your beliefs did spawn from the imagination of mislead scholars and priests.

Yes, and our imagination follows what God told us and we do indeed stay away from what God has forbidden us. You used the word "imagination" in a form Grace Seeker didn't intend. Imagination wasn't a defense of Christian belief, it was response to the idea that God is limited in the ways in which He can interact with His creation.

[Keltoi]

Just like the Jewish and Muslim martyrs.

I wasn't referring to martyrdom, but the belief that life is transitory. A short existence before our eternal life with God.

[AntiKarateKid]

Yes, and our imagination follows what God told us and we do indeed stay away from what God has forbidden us. You used the word "imagination" in a form Grace Seeker didn't intend. Imagination wasn't a defense of Christian belief, it was response to the idea that God is limited in the ways in which He can interact with His creation.

That is exactly what I am talking about. God has expressly told us the ways he would not interact with His creation. Obviously He would not come down and start a family with us, but not so obviously for Christians, He will not send some sort of son to take our sins up for us when he has sent Prophets before and when he forgave sins himself before.

[AhlaamBella]

He will not send some sort of son to take our sins up for us when he has sent Prophets before and when he forgave sins himself before.

That's another thing I don't get. How is it fair that "God's son" dies for lowly humans' sins? Can a christian please answer :)

[AntiKarateKid]

That's another thing I don't get. How is it fair that "God's son" dies for lowly humans' sins? Can a christian please answer :)

I think that deserves another topic but for now, it seems like we have reached some sort of end to this thread. Muslim monotheism is different than Christian monotheism.

[Keltoi]

That is exactly what I am talking about. God has expressly told us the ways he would not interact with His creation. Obviously He would not come down and start a family with us, but not so obviously for Christians, He will not send some sort of son to take our sins up for us when he has sent Prophets before and when he forgave sins himself before.

How ironic, Christians don't believe God would come down and start a family with us either.

As for sin, God is the ultimate judge of sin. That hasn't changed. What has changed is that through the mercy of God, incarnate as Jesus Christ, that taint of sin has been forgiven. God will still judge all of us, but now we have the opportunity to exist eternally in Heaven. Even if we don't deserve it. In Christian belief, none of us can do enough to deserve it. Christ accomplished that for us.

[AhlaamBella]

I think that deserves another topic but for now, it seems like we have reached some sort of end to this thread. Muslim monotheism is different than Christian monotheism.

I guess you're right there lol. Maybe we should get back on topic... though we're never going to agree so if we're all done ranting mayber we should close the thread...:?

[Keltoi]

That's another thing I don't get. How is it fair that "God's son" dies for lowly humans' sins? Can a christian please answer :)

How is it fair? It was an act of mercy. As Muslims routinely point out, God is full of mercy. Also, to God, we are much more than "lowly humans".

[AhlaamBella]

How is it fair? It was an act of mercy. As Muslims routinely point out, God is full of mercy. Also, to God, we are much more than "lowly humans".

You misunderstood what I was asking :) But that's another topic for another thread :)

[AntiKarateKid]

How is it fair? It was an act of mercy. As Muslims routinely point out, God is full of mercy. Also, to God, we are much more than "lowly humans".

We are certainly his preferred creation with many blessings but totally separate. He is full of mercy but doesn't need a sacrifice of his "son who is him at the same time" to forgive. How does he do that without "sacrificing Jesus on the cross for us"?? Use your imagination!!!!!

[Keltoi]

We are certainly his preferred creation with many blessings but totally separate. He is full of mercy but doesn't need a sacrifice of his "son who is him at the same time" to forgive. How does he do that without "sacrificing Jesus on the cross for us"?? Use your imagination!!!!!

God had demanded atonement for sin since the beginning, starting with Genesis. As a God of justice, He cannot simply ignore sin and pretend it doesn't exist or that it isn't an offense to Him. God doesn't "need" sacrifice as atonement, but that is indeed what He prescribed to the Jewish people as atonement for sin. Only a perfect sacrifice could achieve forgiveness for the sins of the entire world. The ultimate atonement.

[AhlaamBella]

God had demanded atonement for sin since the beginning, starting with Genesis. As a God of justice, He cannot simply ignore sin and pretend it doesn't exist or that it isn't an offense to Him. God doesn't "need" sacrifice as atonement, but that is indeed what He prescribed to the Jewish people as atonement for sin. Only a perfect sacrifice could achieve forgiveness for the sins of the entire world. The ultimate atonement.

Shouldn't each individual pay for his sins? Or ask for forgiveness?

[AntiKarateKid]

God had demanded atonement for sin since the beginning, starting with Genesis. As a God of justice, He cannot simply ignore sin and pretend it doesn't exist or that it isn't an offense to Him. God doesn't "need" sacrifice as atonement, but that is indeed what He prescribed to the Jewish people as atonement for sin. Only a perfect sacrifice could achieve forgiveness for the sins of the entire world. The ultimate atonement.

He prescribed it purely as a sign of piety. The act has nothing AT ALL to do with the actually act of forgiveness which lay in Allah's hands. Sacrificing a man/god for our sins does not follow from the act of showing piety by sacrificing a lamb/etc and those who believe in such scapegoats are in error.

[22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

[Keltoi]

He prescribed it purely as a sign of piety. The act has nothing AT ALL to do with the actually act of forgiveness which lay in Allah's hands. Sacrificing a man/god for our sins does not follow from the act of showing piety by sacrificing a lamb/etc and those who believe in such scapegoats are in error.

[22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

Actually you are incorrect.

'Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven. Leviticus 4:35

And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. Leviticus 5:10

20
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and choosing from every clean animal and every clean bird, he offered holocausts on the altar.
21
3 When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, he said to himself: "Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the desires of man's heart are evil from the start; nor will I ever again strike down all living beings, as I have done.
22
As long as the earth lasts, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, Summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Genesis 8:20-22

So, according to the Old Testament your post is in error.

[Grace Seeker]

That's another thing I don't get. How is it fair that "God's son" dies for lowly humans' sins? Can a christian please answer :)

It isn't fair. It is love.

[AhlaamBella]

It isn't fair. It is love.

Does humanity really deserve it though? Where is the justice?

[Grace Seeker]

We are certainly his preferred creation with many blessings but totally separate. He is full of mercy but doesn't need a sacrifice of his "son who is him at the same time" to forgive. How does he do that without "sacrificing Jesus on the cross for us"?? Use your imagination!!!!!

I am not saying that God could not have done it some other way. I am saying that this is the way that God chose to do it. Nothing wrong with my imagination, for I have not chosen to put God in a box where he can't do something. Nothing wrong with the revelation we have of what God actually did do either.

[Grace Seeker]

Does humanity really deserve it though? Where is the justice?

No. Humanity doesn't deserve it. If we got justice we would indeed all (Christian, Muslim would make no difference) to hell. What we receive instead is grace, and a chance to be made right with God again. We don't experience justice. We experience justification.

[Grace Seeker]

Shouldn't each individual pay for his sins? Or ask for forgiveness?

A person in debt and without resources cannot do what you ask. But the one to whom the debt is owed can still cancel them or accept another's offering as payment. God cancelled them by making the payment himself.

[Grace Seeker]

[22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

What reaches God is not our righteousness either. What reaches God is the righteousness of Christ substituted for our own unrighteousness.

[AhlaamBella]

A person in debt and without resources cannot do what you ask. But the one to whom the debt is owed can still cancel them or accept another's offering as payment. God cancelled them by making the payment himself.

And humans get off scott free =D. Well that's all nice and hunky dory isn't it? *sighs* I am sorry, but I cannot see the justice in a murderer, rapist etc getting away with his sins by the grace of God. And how about those who commit a sin against someone else? Doesn't that person get some sort of justice?

[Grace Seeker]

And humans get off scott free =D. Well that's all nice and hunky dory isn't it? *sighs* I am sorry, but I cannot see the justice in a murderer, rapist etc getting away with his sins by the grace of God. And how about those who commit a sin against someone else? Doesn't that person get some sort of justice?

Scott free? I don't call living apart from God, as those who are still dead in their sins are doing, getting off scott free. But you are correct, Christianity considers sin to be sin. A little sin can keep us from God as much as a big one can. And all sins must be redeemed. There is no merit, no good work, that a person can do that would cancel out even the smallest sin, for sin is a falling short from the standards of God perfect holiness. And whether you miss that by an inch or a mile when we fall short we simply don't measure up. It is a test in which the only passing grade is perfection, and I am afraid that none of us are perfect. Given that, we all, murderers, rapists, whatever else you want to throw in there end up with the same judgment passed on us. And likewise we are equally offered the same opportunity for redemption.

[AntiKarateKid]

What reaches God is not our righteousness either. What reaches God is the righteousness of Christ substituted for our own unrighteousness.

Substituted huh?

Man A : Strives hard to please God and be righteous? too bad, God wants Christ's righteousness not yours

Man B: Lying thieving scum? It's your lucky day, you get to have Christ's righteousness


I honestly don't know how to respond to this. God wants us to be good but then sends his son down who is actually him in another form to take away our sins and save us with himself from his own wrath.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you RoseGold;

I am sorry, but I cannot see the justice in a murderer, rapist etc getting away with his sins by the grace of God. And how about those who commit a sin against someone else? Doesn't that person get some sort of justice

As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

In the spirit of praying for God’s mercy for all people,

Eric

[MustafaMc]

As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

Actually, we believe that some Muslims will be sent to Hellfire because their bad deeds and sins outweighed their good deeds and acts of worship. While Allah is Merciful with His Forgiveness, He is also Just in His Punishment. We believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will make intercession before Allah on their behalf and they will eventually be released from Hellfire if they did not associate partners with Allah.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

I have great hope in the Mercy of Allah and I pray for His Forgiveness, but at the same time I fear His Wrath for the wrong that I have done both knowingly and unknowingly. While we don't claim to earn Paradise by our good deeds, we do believe that good deeds counteract and erase bad deeds.

[Fazl Ahmad]

As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

How can a government pardon a crime if the criminal does not even recognize the government? Shirk is spiritual treason, and Allah will never forgive those who did not recognize His supreme authority by being devoted to other gods if they died in that state without having repented. If you committed all the sins in the world, Allah will come with an equal amount of mercy to forgive those sins provided you did not associate any partners with Him. Truly Allah is Ghafoorun Raheem (Forgiving and Merciful).

[Grace Seeker]

Substituted huh?

Man A : Strives hard to please God and be righteous? too bad, God wants Christ's righteousness not yours

Man B: Lying thieving scum? It's your lucky day, you get to have Christ's righteousness


I honestly don't know how to respond to this. God wants us to be good but then sends his son down who is actually him in another form to take away our sins and save us with himself from his own wrath.

Well, at least you understand it, even if you do not accept it.

Actually, we believe that some Muslims will be sent to Hellfire because their bad deeds and sins outweighed their good deeds and acts of worship.

And we believe that there are none, including Man A above, whose sins do not outweigh their good deeds.

While Allah is Merciful with His Forgiveness, He is also Just in His Punishment. We believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will make intercession before Allah on their behalf and they will eventually be released from Hellfire if they did not associate partners with Allah.

So, you do depend on an intercessor. One who stands between you and Allah, but you don't think of that person as a partner with God. Well, neither do I think of Christ as a partner with God for I think he is in fact THE one God Almighty, Father, Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer of all humankind. And yes he interceedes on our behalf with himself. On the one hand Almighty Judge and on the other our Advocate before the throne of judgment. To our mind, a mere human would not be capable of making that appeal, but God himself, out of his love and mercy can appeal to himself and satisify his own demands for justice and righteousness that I and no other human being could ever offer.

I have great hope in the Mercy of Allah and I pray for His Forgiveness, but at the same time I fear His Wrath for the wrong that I have done both knowingly and unknowingly. While we don't claim to earn Paradise by our good deeds, we do believe that good deeds counteract and erase bad deeds.

And we don't believe that our deeds are placed on a scale. There is no point. Good deeds do not erase bad deeds. It is not like a math equation with a zero point sum. It is a standard of perfection, and no matter how good you are, unless one is perfect they still fall short of what God is seeking. Thus we are to be good not to earn anything, but for the sake of goodness itself.

How can a government pardon a crime if the criminal does not even recognize the government? Shirk is spiritual treason, and Allah will never forgive those who did not recognize His supreme authority by being devoted to other gods if they died in that state without having repented. If you committed all the sins in the world, Allah will come with an equal amount of mercy to forgive those sins provided you did not associate any partners with Him. Truly Allah is Ghafoorun Raheem (Forgiving and Merciful).

Amazingly, this is curiously close to the Christian understanding of grace. You are right that a government cannot pardon a crime if the criminal does not even recognize the government. Now you suggest that those who recognize Christ as God are committing spiritual treason. But just for a moment try to hear what Christians are saying. (I'm not asking you to accept it, but to hear it.)

The Christian says that one must place one's faith not in one's own merit, but in the work of God. That God and God alone is to be the central focus of one's life. That though you may have failed to live that way, if you will get your eyes off of yourself, and back on God, if you will repent of your sin and seek to submit yourself to God's authority in your life, then God can redeem you, reclaim you, and restore you to a position of fellowship with him such as you were originally created to live in. The first step in that process is God's unmerited love directed toward us, and the response that is needed is not some act on our part but a decision to trust in what God is doing --our actions must flow out of trusting God to be as good as his word.

The Christian hears that word, the promise of God's mercy, in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus who we believe embodies God come among us. You may call that final belief shirk, but do you see how similar the rest is to what you described. And for us to turn our back and not trust in the work of Christ and try to be good in our own right, would be exactly the type of treason of not recognizing the government you describe.

[AhlaamBella]

Greetings and peace be with you RoseGold;


As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

In the spirit of praying for God’s mercy for all people,

Eric

Oh trust me; those sins do NOT go unpunished. No poor soul has to be nailed to a cross for it believe me.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

....As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

on the last day , many Muslims will go to hell .

After spending there few/ many days/ months/years.....depends on their sins & wills of God .......at last they will be able to get out of hell as a reward for not committing the most major sin.....shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

care to give a second thought ?? We all may not be able to go to heaven on the last day ( may God forbid) ; all our hope will be gone if God won't be merciful to us later. So , what's wrong if punishing the sinners , God forgive them later ?

[Grace Seeker]

care to give a second thought ?? We all may not be able to go to heaven on the last day ( may God forbid) ; all our hope will be gone if God won't be merciful to us later. So , what's wrong if punishing the sinners , God forgive them later ?

Nothing is wrong with God forgiving sinners. We just happen to believe that the time for declaring one's faith in, trust in and allegiance to the God who forgives is in this life, not the next.

[AhlaamBella]

Nothing is wrong with God forgiving sinners. We just happen to believe that the time for declaring one's faith in, trust in and allegiance to the God who forgives is in this life, not the next.

So do we :) we're not as different as you seem to think :)

[Grace Seeker]

So do we :) we're not as different as you seem to think :)

I don't think we are that different, and in fact often make that point. (Which is not always accepted, but I make it anyway.) My relationships with Muslims is too close and too personal to think that we are that far apart.

From your perspective, do you see the Islamic view of spending time in hell before going to heaven in a similar vein to the Catholic concept of purgatory -- that concept is that one is claimed by Christ, but needs to be purified of sins before being admitted to heaven. There is a guanrantee it will happen, but there must be this time of cleansing of sins before it is allowed. What is the reason that a believing Muslim would be sent to hell?

Is it fair to assume from your "so do we" comment that you don't suggest that a non-believer can become a believer in hell?

[AhlaamBella]

Oh sure they sound the same :) but only one is true :) I don't need to tell you which one I feel is right :)

[Grace Seeker]

Oh sure they sound the same :) but only one is true :) I don't need to tell you which one I feel is right :)

No. I respect that you believe what you believe. I was just wanting to know if you viewed them as basically the same, or if you saw significant differences in the two concepts.

What appears similar on the surface, may in fact be radically and fundamentally different on closer examination. The wings on a bird and the wings on a bee for instance are alike only in that they both evolved to allow for flight. Beyond that there is no comparison. Likewise the trintiy that some like to speak of in Hinduism and the Trintiy of Christianity have in common only that idea that they are both speaking of God.

So, I didn't know if the concept of dying and not going to heaven but eventually progressing toward heaven in Islam was more similar to Catholic purgatory or to Jewish Sheol, or if it was completely its own construction.

[AhlaamBella]

I once heard this: christianity and islam are like two beams of sunlight. Separate but from the same source :) Jews, christians and muslims. . . all our messages have been from the same source. But these messages have been distorted. Final message will be protected my God. Christianity once said the same as Islam. Think about it. Moses, Jesus, Muhammed. Peace be upon them all. All with the same message. They didn't oppose each other.

[MustafaMc]

Oh sure they sound the same :) but only one is true :) I don't need to tell you which one I feel is right :)

There are similarities, but distinct differences.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the dam_ed" (CCC 1031).

This doctrine of imperfect purification seems contrary to the Protestant doctrine of reliance on Jesus' (as) blood for cleansing of sins. Theirs is a black and white (not a shade of gray) salvation issue.

In Islam, part of the Mercy of Allah is that good deeds for a believer carry much more weight than the bad deeds he commits. Even the intention to do a bad deed is counted as a good deed if the person corrects himself and does not commit the deed. However, we never know how we will be judged on that Day. For example, the suicide bomber who kills himself and innocent people may be sent to Hell for a time rather than to Heaven as a martyr as he expected. Only Allah knows his (and my) place, but if this person did not associate others with Allah, then we believe that he will eventually be released from Hellfire. My understanding of purgatory is that it is "Hell Light" in contrast to the full, though not eternal, punishment of a Muslim in the Hellfire. Of course, Muslims hope in the Mercy of Allah and they strive with their lives to avoid any punishment in the Hellfire.

[Grace Seeker]

I once heard this: christianity and islam are like two beams of sunlight. Separate but from the same source :) Jews, christians and muslims. . . all our messages have been from the same source. But these messages have been distorted. Final message will be protected my God. Christianity once said the same as Islam. Think about it. Moses, Jesus, Muhammed. Peace be upon them all. All with the same message. They didn't oppose each other.

I like your illustration of the beam of light. I think we all see light differently depending on the lens we view it through. Some through glasses, others telescopes, and each through eyes that each refract the light differently onto the retina at the back of our eyes. In that regard no two of us, see the world exactly the same because while we all look to the same light, we each see that light through our own lens. Of course some see very much the same thing having put on the same brand sunglasses or having chosen not to wear glasses at all. But still each person's vision is uniquely his/her own.

Now today, what we know about God comes from people who have revealed God to us. They are also lenses. Your lens is the Qur'an and Hadith that suggests that others before gave the same message but that it was later corrupted and lost. Mine is a lens called the Bible, and it too says that this light will be corrupted by some. It is as if we are each viewing a part of the stream of light that has come out of a prism that separates that light into respective parts of the spectrum, and yet each of us wants to say that the part we see is the true original light and the others is false. And so we make a comparison, and sure enough the others is different from what we see, proving to each of us individually that we are right and the other is wrong. It of course cannot be that we are both right, and it might be that we are even both wrong, but unless we get back beyond the lens that is refracting the light, we will never know which one of us is viewing the more distorted image until we stand before God ourselves staring him full in the face. Then we shall know, even as we are now known.

And Allah knows best.:D

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

......So, you do depend on an intercessor. One who stands between you and Allah, but you don't think of that person as a partner with God.

Prophet Muhammed (p) does not have any power to forgive anyone including his own mom ,dad , sons or daughters.



All he can do is to pray to God to forgive some sinners. It does not make him partner of God or deity.



A Muslim will be a sinners if s/he directly asks the Prophet to forgive him/her.

[bibleblevr]

In the bible it is clearly stated that the bible is complete, it is the 100% true word of God. Since all in the Bible is true, Jesus must be the son of God which leads you to Christianity. tell me were my logic fails, do I misunderstand Islam

[Tornado]

tell me were my logic fails

Are you joking? If you weren't, read your post again, and again...

[Na7lah]

In the bible it is clearly stated that the bible is complete, it is the 100% true word of God. Since all in the Bible is true, Jesus must be the son of God which leads you to Christianity. tell me were my logic fails, do I misunderstand Islam

u know anyone can write a book and say it is completetly true right?
wouldnt you need proof after they say that?

[Grace Seeker]

u know anyone can write a book and say it is completetly true right?
wouldnt you need proof after they say that?

And anyone can say that an angel gave them a special message from God: members of the sect established by Joseph Smith believe that an angel named Moroni revealed a sacred text to him and that Smith was specifically chosen by God to restore the true Gospel of Jesus Christ that had been corrupted because all of the existing churches had become apostate churches. I don't see that the claims of Islam are much different from that of the Mormons, why shouldn't I accept their claims to special revelation of the Book of Mormon over the Qur'an? After all it is newer, a more recent revelation.

[Na7lah]

I don't see that the claims of Islam are much different from that of the Mormons,

We claim that we have a prophet that was sent to all mankind, and we believe that he was sent with a book the quran. in order for u to claim that it is false u'd have to proove that the quran is fabricated, written by a man.
as stated in the quran u or anyone else who tries will fail
why? simply because its a book with no faults

if u do not belive me u can try and find any contradictions in it though u won't be able to

[جوري]

And anyone can say that an angel gave them a special message from God: members of the sect established by Joseph Smith believe that an angel named Moroni revealed a sacred text to him and that Smith was specifically chosen by God to restore the true Gospel of Jesus Christ that had been corrupted because all of the existing churches had become apostate churches. I don't see that the claims of Islam are much different from that of the Mormons, why shouldn't I accept their claims to special revelation of the Book of Mormon over the Qur'an? After all it is newer, a more recent revelation.

umm.. because the book of the Mormons looks surprisingly like the bible for starters..
The Quran is its own testament!
The entire book is written like a poem, yet it isn't a poem
uses the least words in descriptions so powerful and unmatched, ex. suret an.nazi3at it takes 7 English words to describe just two words in Arabic, it is unprecedented in eloquence, beauty, language. lyricism
It covers all aspects of ones life, politics, economics, social structure, laws of inheritance, how to run a government.
It has scientific reason that doesn't defy logic, and a mere look at the history of the Muslim empire compared to that of the dark ages of the church is enough of a testament!
It is in concert with all that preceded it and doesn't defy logic for instance God doesn't die, doesn't lie, doesn't make a covenant with his own self, doesn't change his mind, doesn't pray to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before he forsakes himself, doesn't break his own commandments not only those that he established but the most important of not killing himself by way of forsaking. doesn't abandon the universe for by being a suckling kid, doesn't go give a woman glad tiding of impregnating her of himself, doesn't take a leave of absence while he dies for three days, and makes sure that his death and birth are coincidentally similar to pagan greek or Zoroastrian spring solstice.. doesn't condemn things and then later abrogate them, doesn't in an anticlimactic moment eats people's sins to have them enter into his heaven...

in Short Islam and the Quran don't have the absurdities in the bible, or the re-writing of the bible as you have a million version that all disagree with each other, whether the Mormon guy was visited or not, really no different than Paul/saul's visitation .. the product of both is a pretty deranged religion that defies all logic...

[Tornado]

We claim that we have a prophet that was sent to all mankind, and we believe that he was sent with a book the quran. in order for u to claim that it is false u'd have to proove that the quran is fabricated, written by a man.
as stated in the quran u or anyone else who tries will fail
why? simply because its a book with no faults

if u do not belive me u can try and find any contradictions in it though u won't be able to

How is that different than saying "We believe the Bible to be true, in order for you to claim that it is false, you'd have to prove that the bible is wrong.

Alas! You go to the books and see what they say. To see whether the books were fabricated or not, we'd have to rewind time.

[Na7lah]

"We believe the Bible to be true, in order for you to claim that it is false, you'd have to prove that the bible is wrong.

well there are many contradictions in the bible itself
and that is probably because it was rewritten so many times

whereas the quran is in its original form

[جوري]

P.S to the thread starter.. the answer is NO
I don't believe Christians pray to the same God..
To them God is the messenger Jesus.. that is whom they call upon, mock in cartoons, put up for sale next to bratz dolls, or in borders or as parody

[image removed]

That is what they have reduced God to, and they are happy with it.. we walk different paths and worship God not men, not dolls and not frogs!

:w:

[Tornado]

well there are many contradictions in the bible itself

I'm playing devil's advocate :D. I can't really speak to these contradictions in the bible or any other holy books because I've not extensively studied them (actually, never studied in any capacity but I'd have to do an extensive study :blind:, maybe one day).

[Keltoi]

^^^ I'm not even sure what this is or where it comes from, but it is offensive in the extreme.

***referring to Sky's frog Christ.

[جوري]

why are you not as outraged when they sell a sandaled hippie God/Jesus at walmart next to bratz dolls?

Yeah I agree what Christianity is and has come to is indeed offensive in the extreme!

[Grace Seeker]

We claim that we have a prophet that was sent to all mankind, and we believe that he was sent with a book the quran. in order for u to claim that it is false u'd have to proove that the quran is fabricated, written by a man.
as stated in the quran u or anyone else who tries will fail
why? simply because its a book with no faults

if u do not belive me u can try and find any contradictions in it though u won't be able to

My proof is the Bible. It specifically says that Jesus died on a cross. The Qur'an says he did not. Since I know the Bible to be true, this proves the Qur'an false. You may not like my opinion, but it is every bit as valid as saying that since you know the Qur'an to be true that you know the Bible then to be corrupted. And as far as outside corroberation for either, it appears to me that there is more for the Biblical account than for the Qur'anic account:

Two near-contemporary Roman sources give evidence of Jesus. Suetonius, in the Life of Claudius, talks about a Chrestus who caused public distrubances—possibly a reference to Christ. Tacitus, in Annals, reports that a Christus, after whom Christians are named, was killed by Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius. The Jewish historian Josephus notes the death of "James, the brother of Jesus." (Yes, later Christian interpretators of Josephus added the phrase "who was called the Christ," but that doesn't negate what Josephus himself wrote.) I'll grant it isn't overwhelming evidence, but enough to corroborate the gospels and convince most people that a Jew named Jesus did live in the first century and died at the hands of the Romans.

As far as contradictions, you claim that all of the prophets were prophets of Isalm, yet the Qur'an says that Muhammad was the first to bow to Allah in Islam (39:12). So, what? Abraham, Jacob, Moses were all prophets of Islam, but never bowed to Allah? If they didn't submit to Allah, how could they be followers of Islam? That in and of itself is contradictory, but beyond that the Qur'an then disputes what it has already said about Muhammad, for Surah 7:143 tells us that Moses was the first to believe. But since Abraham was years before Moses then I guess he couldn't have been a believer. Except that Surah 2:132 says that both Abraham and Jacob died in the faith of Islam. So, there you have it. Abraham and Jacob were both in the faith of Islam at the time of their death about 400 years before the birth of Moses, who then became the first to believe, as would many subsequent prophets such as David and Isa, but despite all of these believers, and prophets of Islam, Muhammad was the first to bow to Allah in Islam. No doubt this is something that you will have a prepared piece of apologetics for, but a religion that disputes every inconsistency in the Bible as proof of its human origins, you are sure willing to live with some might big holes in your own sacred text.

[Keltoi]

why are you not as outraged when they sell a sandaled hippie God/Jesus at walmart next to bratz dolls?

Personally I never look at "bratz" dolls, so I don't even know what they are. I've also never seen the "hippie God/Jesus" you speak about. Guess I should visit the toy aisle more often. In any event, dolls manufactured to resemble Christ aren't the product of any "Christian" effort. Regardless of who they are marketed to. That is free speech and capitalism at work. My outrage wouldn't change anything. If it sells they will make them.

Yeah I agree what Christianity is and has come to is indeed offensive in the extreme!

That says more about you than it does Christianity.

[جوري]

here is the hippie God, and a black one too

I believe the church has been commissioning artists for centuries to depict Jesus/ God and his mother, caravaggio used a dead W H O R E to depict Mary in his famous death of the virgin.. so I'd say th a hippie or a frog God is pretty much of a christian effort ..

and no it actually says alot more about Christianity than me..

[جوري]

My proof is the Bible. It specifically says that Jesus died on a cross. The Qur'an says he did not. Since I know the Bible to be true, this proves the Qur'an false. You may not like my opinion, but it is every bit as valid as saying that since you know the Qur'an to be true that you know the Bible then to be corrupted. And as far as outside corroberation for either, it appears to me that there is more for the Biblical account than for the Qur'anic account:

How is the bible true?

THE BIBLE

The publishers (Collins) say in their notes on the bible, on page 10: "This bible (RSV) is the product of THIRTY-TWO SCHOLARS, assisted by an advisory committee presenting FIFTY co-operating denominations."

Preface of RSV reads "...the King James Version has with good reason been termed "THE NOBLEST MONUMENTS OF ENGLISH PROSE." its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for "ITS SIMPLICITY, ITS DIGNITY, ITS POWER, ITS HAPPY TURNS OF EXPRESSION...THE MUSIC OF ITS CADENCES, AND THE FELICITIES OF ITS RHYTHM." It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt."

Yet In the same breath they say: "yet the King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS. And, the these defects are so MANY AND SO SERIOUS as to call for revision?"

The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "Awake!" Magazine, dated 8 September, 1957, carried this startling headlines - "50,000 ERRORS IN THE BIBLE?". The article said that "most errors have been eliminated." If MOST are eliminated, how many remain out of 50,000? 5000? 500? 50? Even if 50 remain, do you attribute those errors to God?


Error in the Book of God?

[Isaiah 37] and [2 Kings 19] are identical word for word. Yet they have been attributed to two different authors, centuries apart, and it is claimed to have been inspired by God. How is this possible?


God or the Devil?

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." [2 Samuel 24:1]

"And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." [1 Chronicles 21:1]


What did the Lord decree, 3 years famine or 7 years famine?

"So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee?" [2 Samuel 24:13]

"So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee Either THREE YEARS' FAMINE; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee" [1 Chronicles 21:11,12]


How old was Jehoiachin? 8 or 18?

"Jehoiachin was EIGHT YEARS old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD." [2 Chronicles 36:9]

"Jehoiachin was EIGHTEEN YEARS old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem." [2 Kings 24:8]


700 or 7 000? Horsemen or footmen?

"And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of SEVEN HUNDRED CHARIOTS of the Syrians, and FORTY THOUSAND HORSEMEN, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there." [2 Samuel 10:18]

"But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians SEVEN THOUSAND MEN which fought in chariots, and FORTY THOUSAND FOOTMEN, and killed Shophach the captain of the host." [1 Chronicles 19:18]


The difference 2 000 and 3 000 is only 50% exaggeration!

"And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained TWO THOUSAND baths." [1 Kings 7:26]

"And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held THREE THOUSAND baths." [2 Chronicles 4:5]


The difference between 4 thousand and 40 thousand is only 36 000! (The Jews did not use the "0" (zero) in the Old Testament)

"And Solomon had FOUR THOUSAND stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem." [2 Chronicles 9:25]

"And Solomon had FORTY THOUSAND stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen." [1 Kings 4:26]


DID PROPHET JESUS PREACH THE GOSPEL ?

The "Gospel" writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel

"And Jesus went...preaching the GOSPEL...and healing every disease among the people." [Matthew 9:35]

"...but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the GOSPEL'S, the same shall save it." [Mark 8:35]

"...preached the GOSPEL..." [Luke 20:1]

The "gospel" is a frequently-used word, but what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. We talk about the Gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to John, but there is not a single Gospel "according" to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. In his life-time Jesus never wrote a single word, nor is there any real evidence that he instructed anyone to do so.

Do you know what Jesus looked like? is he white/black/green? how about the recording historians some x years later? did they do an autopsy on the man marred with blood whose body couldn't be found? did God have any distinguishing features, moles? dental records that set him aside from folks of the same region who look similar?

[جوري]

here is to addressing your other fables about the Quran
"And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
:http://www.---------------/answering-Islam-3.htm#realiz,

وَلَمَّا جَاء مُوسَى لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي وَلَـكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا فَلَمَّا أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ {143}

[Pickthal 7:143] And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

وَوَصَّى بِهَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ يَا بَنِيَّ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَى لَكُمُ الدِّينَ فَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إَلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ {132}

[Pickthal 2:132] The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَنْ أَكُونَ أَوَّلَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {12}

[Pickthal 39:12] And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims

straight from the Quran.. so try again reading the book itself rather than from answering Islam.. they are surprisingly desperate and often make haste in their searched and pathetic attempts..
Monotheism is the first and last religion!..

[Grace Seeker]

as you have a million version that all disagree with each other

I have never understood why you bring this up. It seems a meaningless point to me. As you well know those million different versions are all translations and secondary copies. And there are nearly as many translations and secondary copies of the Qur'an as there are of the Bible. The primary case to be made with regard to the Bible is not the million different translation, for the creation of them proves nothing except how diverse the views of translators are from one another. It would seem to me that the bigger issue with regard to the Bible, and the one thing that is an issue with it that is not an issue with the Qur'an, is that there is disagreement between denominations within Christendom as to whether or not to accept 7 books as canonical or not. But we don't have a million versions that disagree with each other any more than you do. You may cite the King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version and I will cite the Pickthall translation, the Yusuf Ali translation, the M.H. Shakir translation. And just as you could go on and on with English translation after English translation of the Bible, I could do the same with the Qur'an citing the translations by Rashad Kalifa, At-Tabari, Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Laleh Bakhtiar, and on and on and on for probably as long as you could with different versions of the Bible. And as with many different translations of the Bible, no two of these translations of the Qur'an are in agreement anymore than the different translations of the Bible are in agreement with each other -- if they were, there would be no need for yet another translation of either, you could just copy the first one. So, I really don't see why this seems to be such an issue with so many?

[Fazl Ahmad]

I have never understood why you bring this up. It seems a meaningless point to me. As you well know those million different versions are all translations and secondary copies. And there are nearly as many translations and secondary copies of the Qur'an as there are of the Bible. The primary case to be made with regard to the Bible is not the million different translation, for the creation of them proves nothing except how diverse the views of translators are from one another. It would seem to me that the bigger issue with regard to the Bible, and the one thing that is an issue with it that is not an issue with the Qur'an, is that there is disagreement between denominations within Christendom as to whether or not to accept 7 books as canonical or not. But we don't have a million versions that disagree with each other any more than you do. You may cite the King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version and I will cite the Pickthall translation, the Yusuf Ali translation, the M.H. Shakir translation. And just as you could go on and on with English translation after English translation of the Bible, I could do the same with the Qur'an citing the translations by Rashad Kalifa, At-Tabari, Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Laleh Bakhtiar, and on and on and on for probably as long as you could with different versions of the Bible. And as with many different translations of the Bible, no two of these translations of the Qur'an are in agreement anymore than the different translations of the Bible are in agreement with each other -- if they were, there would be no need for yet another translation of either, you could just copy the first one. So, I really don't see why this seems to be such an issue with so many?

A difference in translation of the same text is not the same thing as conflicting manuscripts for the Bible. The text of the Quran is one, and every manuscript of the Quran (in Arabic of course) since the time of the Salaf until now has been exactly the same. This is not the case with the Bible, where there are competing and conflicting versions, like the septuagint, the masoretic text. Plus there is no "original copy" of the New Testament by which you can check and confirm which of today's versions is more accurate and authentic. Unlike the Quran, there are thousands of "original copies" of the New Testament with thousands of variations, some so significant that it changes the entire meaning of a passage, having grave theological implications. So in short, there are many different interpretations of the Quran, but those interpretations and translations are at least based on one solid unchangable source, which unfortunately is not the situation with the Bible.

[جوري]

I have never understood why you bring this up. It seems a meaningless point to me. As you well know those million different versions are all translations and secondary copies. And there are nearly as many translations and secondary copies of the Qur'an as there are of the Bible. The primary case to be made with regard to the Bible is not the million different translation, for the creation of them proves nothing except how diverse the views of translators are from one another. It would seem to me that the bigger issue with regard to the Bible, and the one thing that is an issue with it that is not an issue with the Qur'an, is that there is disagreement between denominations within Christendom as to whether or not to accept 7 books as canonical or not. But we don't have a million versions that disagree with each other any more than you do. You may cite the King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version and I will cite the Pickthall translation, the Yusuf Ali translation, the M.H. Shakir translation. And just as you could go on and on with English translation after English translation of the Bible, I could do the same with the Qur'an citing the translations by Rashad Kalifa, At-Tabari, Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Laleh Bakhtiar, and on and on and on for probably as long as you could with different versions of the Bible. And as with many different translations of the Bible, no two of these translations of the Qur'an are in agreement anymore than the different translations of the Bible are in agreement with each other -- if they were, there would be no need for yet another translation of either, you could just copy the first one. So, I really don't see why this seems to be such an issue with so many?

the original Quran in Arabic is always the same, UNCHANGED one can always go to the source.. where is your original bible that is written by Jesus? Who is mark and Luke? Jesus/God hung out with Luke and uttered those words to him?
I have already shown above how the verses are completely incongruous from one book to the next.. this isn't a mere difference in those who believe not, non- believers, unbelievers or disbelievers.. we are talking completely different verses. Plus, it is full of lies about the nature of God, that doesn't at all agree with those before it, not with Judaism, Mandaeans, Islam, not of any of the messengers who preached monotheism David/ Joseph/ Enoch, etc etc was the concept of a tri-God ever evident.
plus all the things listed on the previous page that are completely mind boggling.. to be christian today, you really have the imagination of a stoic and hope that it can sustain some degree of credence as people's minds advance to accept things so absurd!

[Grace Seeker]

here is to addressing your other fables about the Quran
"And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
:http://www.---------------/answering-Islam-3.htm#realiz,

وَلَمَّا جَاء مُوسَى لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي وَلَـكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا فَلَمَّا أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ {143}

[Pickthal 7:143] And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

وَوَصَّى بِهَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ يَا بَنِيَّ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَى لَكُمُ الدِّينَ فَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إَلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ {132}

[Pickthal 2:132] The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَنْ أَكُونَ أَوَّلَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {12}

[Pickthal 39:12] And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims

straight from the Quran.. so try again reading the book itself rather than from answering Islam.. they are surprisingly desperate and often make haste in their searched and pathetic attempts..
Monotheism is the first and last religion!..

Actually, I didn't get that from Answering Islam, whatever that is. But that is neither here nor there. I figured that there was most likely an simple explanation for it, and I thank you for the refernce. I don't have any problems with that interpretation. Of course, the explantion does require me to accept something different from what the Qur'an actually says. For it doesn't say that Moses was the first to believe from among his own people, it only says that he was the first of the believers. Why wouldn't God have said the fiirst from among his own people if he had meant the first from among his own people? Surely if that is what he meant he could have said that, but instead he said something different.

Now do I really have that complaint or question? No. But that is the kind of logic I run into so often with those who criticize and find fault with biblical passages.

Now, not to you personally, but a general request of the entire Islamic world as a whole, and especially the young apologists here at LI, if you are capable of using your brain to understand passages like this in the Qur'an, please use that same reason that Allah gave you when you critique the Bible. Even if you can't see it for yourself, understand that most often there are simple explanations of the apparent inconsistency with Biblical verses, just like I knew there would be for those verses from the Qur'an. Developing the attitude of a dog who can't let go of a bone doesn't help anyone learn anything.

[جوري]

I am going to bed Gene.. and hope this section will be closed by tomorrow.. I dislike immensely to engage in vain discourse over absurdities, jibes about the Quran and Islam so close to Ramadan.

As for as I am concerned the books aren't even in the same league.. really unfair to compare them..

bible is a collection of work by 'saints' and the only similar collection to it in Islam is the compendium of ahadith.. but even those go through a rigorous authentication process which is more than we can say of the bible...

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Skye Ephémérine;

I understand you are not responsible for creating those images of Jesus, but I also find them offensive. Whatever your beleifs about Jesus are, he is also a prophet in Islam. I am reminded of the recent outrage of some Danish cartoons.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric

[Fazl Ahmad]

Exactly, Allah revealed the Quran in Arabic, but human beings translate it into English and other languages. We assume God revealed the Old Testament in Hebrew, for the most part the Old Testament has remained the same, though there are some differences in the Masoretic text and Dead sea scolls, as well as other manuscripts (despite the fact that they are all in Hebrew!)

The New Testament is much more complicated. It is written in Greek, despite the fact Jesus didn't speak that language, and as I mentioned before there are thousands of variations, additions and deletions among the Greek manuscripts, which are the source material for the New Testament. Plus for some reason Paul's letters were added to the Gospel.

[Fazl Ahmad]

Greetings and peace be with you Skye Ephémérine;
I understand you are not responsible for creating those images of Jesus, but I also find them offensive.
I am reminded of the outrage after some Danish cartoons of the prophet pbuh.
In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship
Eric

The Danish cartoons were caricatures of the Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam) mocking and ridiculing him. For example, one of the cartoons portrayed him as (God forbid) a terrorist and suicide bomber. The pictures which Skye posted are made by Christians themselves, and there is nothing really offensive in them. True, we Muslims are forbidden to make images of living things, but no Christian finds simple images of Jesus to be offensive as far as I know.

[Grace Seeker]

the original Quran in Arabic is always the same, UNCHANGED one can always go to the source.. where is your original bible that is written by Jesus? Who is mark and Luke? Jesus/God hung out with Luke and uttered those words to him?
I have already shown above how the verses are completely incongruous from one book to the next.. this isn't a mere difference in those who believe not, non- believers, unbelievers or disbelievers.. we are talking completely different verses. Plus, it is full of lies about the nature of God, that doesn't at all agree with those before it, not with Judaism, Mandaeans, Islam, not of any of the messengers who preached monotheism David/ Joseph/ Enoch, etc etc was the concept of a tri-God ever evident.
plus all the things listed on the previous page that are completely mind boggling.. to be christian today, you really have the imagination of a stoic and hope that it can sustain some degree of credence as people's minds advance to accept things so absurd!

The list of what you call incongruous items and where one book does not agree with another is one thing. Talking about a million different translations is another. Confusing the two and talking about them as the same thing merely confuses the issue.

[جوري]

I find it sacrilegious to know people have been commissioning artists for years to depict Jesus and MAry on stain glass on church walls using the lowliest of role models , and I consider him a prophet let alone God.. I have learned to divorce myself from the sacrilege committed by Christians with the solace that those images don't depict Jesus PBUH or God.. that it is the work of folks who have positively no respect for anything holy. I can walk into any church, black, white, chinese and find like Jesus only depicting the features of that community..

[جوري]

Actually, I didn't get that from Answering Islam, whatever that is. But that is neither here nor there. I figured that there was most likely an simple explanation for it, and I thank you for the refernce. I don't have any problems with that interpretation. Of course, the explantion does require me to accept something different from what the Qur'an actually says. For it doesn't say that Moses was the first to believe from among his own people, it only says that he was the first of the believers. Why wouldn't God have said the fiirst from among his own people if he had meant the first from among his own people? Surely if that is what he meant he could have said that, but instead he said something different.

I stuck it in google and found it, in the familiar sites.. it isn't your own read, I can tell, otherwise how remiss of you.. as for your conclusion, I have no idea what you mean.. are we splitting hair?

Now do I really have that complaint or question? No. But that is the kind of logic I run into so often with those who criticize and find fault with biblical passages.

Again, when it comes to the Quran and the bible, they are not even in the same league.. there is plenty to criticize!

Now, not to you personally, but a general request of the entire Islamic world as a whole, and especially the young apologists here at LI, if you are capable of using your brain to understand passages like this in the Qur'an, please use that same reason that Allah gave you when you critique the Bible. Even if you can't see it for yourself, understand that most often there are simple explanations of the apparent inconsistency with Biblical verses, just like I knew there would be for those verses from the Qur'an. Developing the attitude of a dog who can't let go of a bone doesn't help anyone learn anything.

There is nothing to learn in a situation like this.. you made a comparison between a Mormon loon and his book, with prophet Mohammed SAW and Islam, and I just thought to highlight where there is error..
comparison in my opinion is better suited between paul/saul and the Mormon guy..

cheers

[جوري]

I am tired and i am going to bed..

Eric-- I meant you no offense.. out of all the Christians here.. I believe you to have no agenda and to be the most sincere...

All the best

[Grace Seeker]

Exactly, Allah revealed the Quran in Arabic, but human beings translate it into English and other languages. We assume God revealed the Old Testament in Hebrew, for the most part the Old Testament has remained the same, though there are some differences in the Masoretic text and Dead sea scolls, as well as other manuscripts (despite the fact that they are all in Hebrew!)

The New Testament is much more complicated. It is written in Greek, despite the fact Jesus didn't speak that language, and as I mentioned before there are thousands of variations, additions and deletions among the Greek manuscripts, which are the source material for the New Testament. Plus for some reason Paul's letters were added to the Gospel.

You are obviously read enough to know that there is also a science of textual criticism by which we have worked our way back to what we feel confident was the original text. In doing so scholars study these texts noting all the things you identified and then in ways similar to pronouning a hadith authentic, make a determination about the authenticity of each line of text. Of course, most lay people don't know all of this, we just trust the work of the scholars to do this for us. But where those scholars are not confident you will find that most Bibles have a footnote indicating variant readings. For those who want to know more, I encourage you to get hold or a the textual apparatus that spells all of this out.

As to why Paul's letters were added to the Gospel, they weren't. If anything it was the other way around. Paul's letters were generally written first, and the churches to which he wrote them found them worthy of preserving. Later, when it became apparent that the first generation of disciples who had been able to themselves share the Gospel message of Jesus would soon be gone, then there became a realized need to put their oral witness down on paper. By that time the letters of Paul and others were already in circulation being shared between the churches, not just their original recipients. What became the canon are those writings that were found by the Church as a whole to be beneficial to ordering the faith and practice of the Church.

And of course they were written in Greek (though some speculate that Matthew's Gospel may have had a proto-Matthew edition in Hebrew prior to being written in Greek), as Greek was the shared language of the world. A Gospel that was for all nations would need to be in the universal language of its time, and not the language of just one corner of that world.

There is another issue at work here though. Muslims seem to want to take their understanding of what Muhammad did for them and transfer this over to Jesus. But just because Muhammad received a word from God to deliver, does not mean that this is what Jesus came to do. While Jesus did have a preaching ministry, the record of the church makes it clear that his primary ministry was not one of teaching, but of going to the cross. In light of this the Biblical record is not meant to be a collection of Jesus' sayings. But a testimony to his saving work. Trying to make Jesus into just a messenger, shows a lack of understanding as to what Jesus was really all about. And that would be why there is no Gospel as recorded by Jesus, for the Gospel is not good news from Jesus, but rather good news about what Jesus has done.

People ask amiss when they ask for a record of what Jesus preached, even if you had it, that wouldn't be the Gospel. The Gospel message is what he did.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Skye Ephémérine; Ramadan Mubarak to you

Sometimes I feel that it is better to pray for the other person, than to respond quickly to a post.

In order to search for that inner peace that surpasses all understanding, there is the need to forgive and to be at peace with your neighbour.

In the spirit of praying for a peace that surpasses all understanding

Eric

[Fazl Ahmad]

There is another issue at work here though. Muslims seem to want to take their understanding of what Muhammad did for them and transfer this over to Jesus. But just because Muhammad received a word from God to deliver, does not mean that this is what Jesus came to do. While Jesus did have a preaching ministry, the record of the church makes it clear that his primary ministry was not one of teaching, but of going to the cross. In light of this the Biblical record is not meant to be a collection of Jesus' sayings. But a testimony to his saving work. Trying to make Jesus into just a messenger, shows a lack of understanding as to what Jesus was really all about. And that would be why there is no Gospel as recorded by Jesus, for the Gospel is not good news from Jesus, but rather good news about what Jesus has done.People ask amiss when they ask for a record of what Jesus preached, even if you had it, that wouldn't be the Gospel. The Gospel message is what he did.

Yes you have summed up the main difference between Islam and Christianity viz a vis Jesus. Muslims concentrate on the message of Jesus, because he was a messenger from Allah. Christians concentrate on the person of Jesus, a field of knowledge which they call "christology". This is because Christians believe Jesus is God, and to them what Jesus is made out of is more important than the words he spoke. They debate whether Jesus is purely divine (monophysite), half divine (nestorian), simultaneously divine (orthodox), or an illusion (docetist). In Islam we cannot be bothered with such things, Jesus is nothing but a human being you like or me, but his message, the message of devotion to Allah alone, is what makes him special. I only wish Christians would see the message of Jesus and realize how important it is. Its amazing you read all the words of Jesus as you find them in your modern bibles and Jesus very rarely speaks about who he is but rather what we should do to make God happy with us. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

If believing in Jesus dying on the cross is the most important thing in life, you would think it would be the most emphasized point in the bible, but rather, when Jesus was asked what is the most important commandment he said: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." (Mark 12:29)

Jesus was a true Muslim!

[Grace Seeker]

If believing in Jesus dying on the cross is the most important thing in life, you would think it would be the most emphasized point in the bible, but rather, when Jesus was asked what is the most important commandment he said: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." (Mark 12:29)

Jesus was a true Muslim!

We don't deny the importance of the Shema. But since you asked me to think about the most emphasized point in the Bible, I invite you to take a closer look at the Gospels. How much of them is spent reporting the message Jesus preached, and how much of them is spent reporting on the final week of his passion? For a man who supposedly spent 3 years preaching, we have a grand total of just 50 days of his life recorded. What the gospels focus on, what the writers spend 1/3 to 1/2 of their time telling us about is in fact that final week culiminating in his death and resurection. By your own way of figuring, that would seem to make the message the primary message they were trying to share with us about Jesus.

If by saying that Jesus was a true Muslim you mean that he fully submitted himself to his Father, I would unhesisitatingly agree. And I would add that he calls us to do the same. But that isn't the good news of the Gospel message.

[Fazl Ahmad]

For a man who supposedly spent 3 years preaching, we have a grand total of just 50 days of his life recorded. What the gospels focus on, what the writers spend 1/3 to 1/2 of their time telling us about is in fact that final week culiminating in his death and resurection. By your own way of figuring, that would seem to make the message the primary message they were trying to share with us about Jesus.

Actually my point is what Jesus himself emphasized. The authors of the "gospels" obviously had their own agenda. They only focused their narrative on a certain part of Jesus' life.

Anyways, let me ask you, we as Muslims do not believe Jesus died for our sins. We don't believe that was his purpose, and we don't see any value in him dying helping us come closer to Allah. So in your perspective, are we condemned or saved? Most probably you will say condemned. We Muslims define ourselves as being devoted exclusively to Allah. We worship and invoke Him alone, which is the message of the bible. We don't believe Jesus is divine or the only begotten son of God. This is something you need to think about very carefully and reflect upon alot. Is it reasonable to believe that by rejecting Jesus having died for our sins you go to hell? Please be honest about this. Christianity says Jesus dying for your sins and accepting that is the way to get saved. Islam says that being devoted to Allah alone without any partners or idols is the way to get saved. Let us forget the New Testament for a moment and look to the Old Testament. The Old Testament is about one thing and one thing only, worshiping God alone and condemning worship of idols and false gods. This is the basis for God blessing and bestowing His favors upon the people of Israel. Now we have the Quran which completely agrees with the old testament theology, and the new testament, which is a complete surprise and completely new theology. If you think in these terms I hope you will see where we are coming from.

In the meantime I invite you to read the book Taqwiyatul Iman in English by the great martyr of Islam, Shah Ismail Delhwi (may Allah bestow mercy on him).

You can read this book on your own time, it is in PDF format. It is about 79 pages if you want to print it, or print certain sections. This book is about the beautiful subject of tawheed, the Oneness of Allah, and shows how believing in the Oneness of Allah and never compromising in that is the way to salvation. It is very simple and easy book to understand, please enjoy it.

[mkh4JC]

Actually my point is what Jesus himself emphasized. The authors of the "gospels" obviously had their own agenda. They only focused their narrative on a certain part of Jesus' life.

Anyways, let me ask you, we as Muslims do not believe Jesus died for our sins. We don't believe that was his purpose, and we don't see any value in him dying helping us come closer to Allah. So in your perspective, are we condemned or saved? Most probably you will say condemned. We Muslims define ourselves as being devoted exclusively to Allah. We worship and invoke Him alone, which is the message of the bible. We don't believe Jesus is divine or the only begotten son of God. This is something you need to think about very carefully and reflect upon alot. [B]Is it reasonable to believe that by rejecting Jesus having died for our sins you go to hell?[B] Please be honest about this.

We as Christians don't have the power to condemn anyone. No one on this Earth has that kind of power. It's all in God's hands. We of course--however--believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father, and that whether a person knows it or not they need him in their lives.

Christianity says Jesus dying for your sins and accepting that is the way to get saved. Islam says that being devoted to Allah alone without any partners or idols is the way to get saved. Let us forget the New Testament for a moment and look to the Old Testament. The Old Testament is about one thing and one thing only, worshiping God alone and condemning worship of idols and false gods. This is the basis for God blessing and bestowing His favors upon the people of Israel. Now we have the Quran which completely agrees with the old testament theology, and the new testament, which is a complete surprise and completely new theology. If you think in these terms I hope you will see where we are coming from.

If you ever read the Old Testament, you can see with crystal clarity how the sacrificial system set up by God that the Jewish people had to abide by is a precursor to what Christ would ultimately have to do on the cross in the role of the perfect sacrifice. So, in that most important respect, the Old and New Testaments are like different sides of the same cloth. The Jews for the most part don't recognize Christ, or can't see that he is the promised Messiah because God has put a seal on their eyes until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. But during the tribulation they will come to realize that Christ is the Messiah. The Quran completely disregards this method of redemption that in the Old Testament can be traced even back to the first family on Earth, as evidenced by Cain and Abel's sacrificial offerings to God.

[Grace Seeker]

Actually my point is what Jesus himself emphasized. The authors of the "gospels" obviously had their own agenda. They only focused their narrative on a certain part of Jesus' life.

Anyways, let me ask you, we as Muslims do not believe Jesus died for our sins. We don't believe that was his purpose, and we don't see any value in him dying helping us come closer to Allah. So in your perspective, are we condemned or saved?

I have addressed this many times. You asked for my perspective, so I will give mine, which I know is certainly not shared by all other Christians.

I believe that salvation is a gift of God to whoever he chooses to give it. I know that he has promised it to those who put their trust in Jesus to save them. And I know that whoever is saved is saved because Christ has made it possible and one is saved by his work. But I don't find it anywhere in scripture that says God excludes all who don't confess Christ. Rather, I note in Romans 2 that God seems to make provision for those who live according to the law he has placed on their hearts. This may or may not include Muslims, I don't know. So, I pray that it does, but encourage you to turn to Christ if you truly want assurance.

[Fazl Ahmad]

If you ever read the Old Testament, you can see with crystal clarity how the sacrificial system set up by God that the Jewish people had to abide by is a precursor to what Christ would ultimately have to do on the cross in the role of the perfect sacrifice.

Animal sacrifice is an act of devotion, it can be either good or evil, depending on whom it is dedicated to. Hence animal sacrifices to false gods and idols is condemned, while if an animal sacrifice is dedicated to God alone it is a righteous act. Therefore, you cannot divorce the actual sacrifice to the intention behind it. God is extremely angered with people sacrificing animals to a pagan deity, but is pleased if the same animals is sacrificed in His Name! So when Jesus was supposedly "sacrificed" in whose Name was He sacrificed? That is our point, Jesus being put on the cross is not the same as an animal sacrifice, to believe so is quite absurd in my opinion. Christians believe Jesus was sacrificed for the benefit of all humanity, yet only a tiny fraction of humanity would be involved in actually sacrificing him.

I simply fail to see how the Bible mandating animal sacrifices dedicated to God on certain festivals and for certain circumstances is somehow foreshadowing the "sacrifice" of Jesus. An animal sacrifice is an act of piety, does this mean the people who tried to kill Jesus and rejected him as the messiah were acting piously?

The message of the Old testament is that all acts of devotion should be dedicated to God alone, and animal sacrifice is not unique to Jews, even the pagan practice it, but their sacrifices are dedicated to their "gods" instead of the One True God. They even sacrifice humans as mentioned in the Bible about the pagan deity molech.

[MustafaMc]

A difference in translation of the same text is not the same thing as conflicting manuscripts for the Bible. The text of the Quran is one, and every manuscript of the Quran (in Arabic of course) since the time of the Salaf until now has been exactly the same.

Another major difference between the Qur'an and the Bible is that we believe that every word of the Qur'an is the Word of Allah. Christians can't even remotely claim that the Bible is the Word of God (even though they "know" it is the Truth). For example, can Christians even claim that God said to Paul, "But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned." (Galatians 2:11) Of course they can't even make the claim, but yet they refuse to see that 95% of the NT is merely words written by man. They unquestionably accept the "gospel" that Paul claims he received as revelation from God (Galatians 1:12, I Cor 15:1-2) without really acknowledging him as a Prophet of God. To me, one must first establish the prophethood of someone before his message is accepted as being from God. Christians skip over this pivotal analysis. We Muslims first accept Muhammad as a Prophet and Messenger of God before we accept what he taught - remember the shahada, "Ash'hadu an la ilaha il'Allah wa ash'hadu anna Muhammadan abdahu wa rasool'Allah."

The NT gospels are more comparable to our hadith than to the Qur'an, but without chains of narration being established as we have with the sahih hadith. The gospels are written in third person of he said/he did in reference to Jesus (as) and there isn't even full agreement between the 4 gosples as to what Jesus (as) actually said or did.

Imagine that Amr ibn Hishām (Abu Jahl) suddenly "saw the light" and before the Battle Badr he instead went to Yemen only to return to Mecca after Prophet Muhammad (saaws) had died. Upon returning, he started preaching the "message" that he claims was revealed to him that Muhammad was the "Son of God" (astighfir'Allah) and he opposed Abu Bakr in his reestablishing the collection of zakat "to his face because he stood condemned". How long would it have taken for this impostor to have been killed? Yet this is entirely analogous to Paul and his letters in the Bible. Somehow the letters by Paul (such as I Cor 15:1-8) are more often the emphasis of Christian sermons than are the words allegedly spoken by Jesus (as) in the 4 gospels.

[Eric H]

This thread needs to close.

[Whatsthepoint]

This thread needs to close.

It doesn't. Just all the offensive stuff need to be deleted.

[MustafaMc]

In the meantime I invite you to read the book Taqwiyatul Iman in English by the great martyr of Islam, Shah Ismail Delhwi (may Allah bestow mercy on him).

When I read this paragraph, I could not help but think of the discussions we have had regarding Mary and the Christian saints. Apparently, in the early 1800's shirk was rampant among Muslims at least in India. Also, wasn't one of the primary reforms of Muhammad Wahab to abolish grave worship?

Those who profess to have Faith in Allah while their actions reeking of polytheism:
It means that the majority of people who outwardly profess to have faith in Allah are in fact entangled in the quagmire of polytheism. If someone questions them as to why are they involved in Shirk while evincing faith in Allah, they answer by saying that "We are not committing an act of polytheism, neigh we cherish a tremendous amount of love for the prophets and saints and we are none but their true devotees. Had we considered them on an equal status with Allah, it would have been 'an act of Shirk', but we merely consider them the slaves and creatures of Allah, Who had vested in them an authority and given them the capability to the effect that they manipulate the matters concerning this world by the Will of Allah. Therefore calling upon them for help is calling upon Allah for His Help. These people are dear ones to Allah and therefore are free to do whatever they like. These are our advocates who will intercede with Allah on our behalf. Meeting them makes one meet his Cherisher and calling upon them makes us near to Allah. The more we recognize their greatness and pay our respect to them, the more we shall be drawn towards Allah." - In addition to all this, they make a lot of other absurd and baseless statements.

I believe that one could substitute only a few words in quotes above and Catholics could say exactly the same thing about Mary and their "saints".

[جوري]

Anyway, I hope Muslims realize Islam is not the only religion that people make fun of.

People indeed realize that Islam is the religion people most target.. but they can't make fun of.. there is nothing by way of a self-sacrificial God who has been drawn in every color for years to make a parody of or have artists depict (the mother of God) using newly dead W H O R E S..I
What is done against Islam be out of their own spite and zealous vigilance-- because their own religion is reduced to frogs and W H O R E S!

as for the cartoons

That is not Prophet Mohamed PBUH.. the pictures don't fit with his description, nor the deeds they ascribe to him are known to have been committed by him-- thus I am as a person completely divorced from it.. if anything it looks like a Sikh fellow from the kingdom of Punjab!

cheers

[crayon]

as for the cartoons

That is not Prophet Mohamed PBUH.. the pictures don't fit with his description, nor the deeds they ascribe to him are known to have been committed by him-- thus I am as a person completely divorced from it.. if anything it looks like a Sikh fellow from the kingdom of Punjab!

cheers

Wow, I never looked at it that way..
So very true!

[Whatsthepoint]

If anyone is offended by the cartoons, I only posted them so mods would delete them along with the frog.

People indeed realize that Islam is the religion people most target..

I don't think so. Western press mostly targets Christianity, though Christians don't make to much of a fuss about it, so in most cases it gets unnoticed.

[coddles76]

...but why do Christians call Jesus (as) the Son of God? They often end their prayers "...In the name of your Son, Jesus". How can an entity be the "son of someone" and at the same time be that "someone"?

Thats a good question Mustafa,
And that's why I have specified that I would leave it to the reader of the forum to decide how contradictory that sounds but Maybe our friendly christian members can have a answer for you on how God can be the son, and at the same time be God himself who walked the earth then sacrificied himself on the cross to rid the world of sin which is still in abundance around the entire world.

[mkh4JC]

Thats a good question Mustafa,
And that's why I have specified that I would leave it to the reader of the forum to decide how contradictory that sounds but Maybe our friendly christian members can have a answer for you on how God can be the son, and at the same time be God himself who walked the earth then sacrificied himself on the cross to rid the world of sin which is still in abundance around the entire world.

That's because the overwhelming majority of the world's population don't belong to Christ. There isn't, for instance, two billion plus people living in this Earth who are the Lord's. That would mean that two out of every six people you meet would be Christian, and the world would have an amazing opportunity to see how this life is lived out. Here's what Jesus said regarding this issue:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.

So there's actually people going around, claiming to be Christian and casting out devils, and they don't have an ounce of Jesus! It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because you came to him.

[mkh4JC]

Animal sacrifice is an act of devotion, it can be either good or evil, depending on whom it is dedicated to. Hence animal sacrifices to false gods and idols is condemned, while if an animal sacrifice is dedicated to God alone it is a righteous act. Therefore, you cannot divorce the actual sacrifice to the intention behind it. God is extremely angered with people sacrificing animals to a pagan deity, but is pleased if the same animals is sacrificed in His Name! So when Jesus was supposedly "sacrificed" in whose Name was He sacrificed? That is our point, Jesus being put on the cross is not the same as an animal sacrifice, to believe so is quite absurd in my opinion.

It's not absurd when you consider the totality of scripture:

'Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender planet, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth:
He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was there any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering to sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.' Isaiah 53: 1-12.

Christians believe Jesus was sacrificed for the benefit of all humanity, yet only a tiny fraction of humanity would be involved in actually sacrificing him.

You should really read Hebrews in the New Testament, as it addresses a lot of these issues and concerns. The point being it didn't matter that only a fraction of people were present during Christ's sacrifice, as his purpose was to die once and then to intercede on the behalf of human beings for all time. Just give the book a read if you ever get the chance.

I simply fail to see how the Bible mandating animal sacrifices dedicated to God on certain festivals and for certain circumstances is somehow foreshadowing the "sacrifice" of Jesus. An animal sacrifice is an act of piety, does this mean the people who tried to kill Jesus and rejected him as the messiah were acting piously?

Christ's sacrifice is the fulfillment of God's plan for redemption in the Old Testament, as I just showed by quoting passages in Isaiah.

The message of the Old testament is that all acts of devotion should be dedicated to God alone, and animal sacrifice is not unique to Jews, even the pagan practice it, but their sacrifices are dedicated to their "gods" instead of the One True God. They even sacrifice humans as mentioned in the Bible about the pagan deity molech.

I understand that. That still, however, does not change the fact that it was God himself who introduced blood sacrifce to the human race, as a means of atonement, and that the Quran completely disregards this.

[malayloveislam]

Sorry interrupting, I fthrough my limited knowledge found the nature of Trinity doctrine in Christianity almost resembling the nature of Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva of Hinduism. These three had been fractioned from a single Brahman, the Supreme Being. Brahma only effective when he is creating, and then he shifted himself to Vishnu as the preserver, loving and caring to his devotees, and being Shiva who destructs in the time of Kaliyuga (near the world being destructed).

And then again Krishna a person cum God in ancient time mentioned in Mahabharata had been the manifestation of Vishnu the preserver in order to salvate the human-being being crossed in non-vedic tradition and revered by Vaishnavis but acceptable by Hindu Orthodoxies.

Krishna had suffered on the cross to save mankind while in his body the God manifest himself (mentioned in Krita Yugah). Krishna then manifest as Arjuna who played in Kurukshetra war while Krishna Vasudeva himself had been advising Arjuna his own manifestation during the time of conflicts.

The Creator was divided into three to make it easy for the ancient pagan people understand the basic roles. And then come another avatars (manifestations and incarnations) until there are more than 8000000 gods or deities. Is that Trinity doctrine being sought from Hinduism since the Greeks too had entered India since before Christ or it is the idea of Christianity alone? Thanks and sorry again interrupting.

Wishing happy Ramadhan Mubarak to all Muslim brothers and sisters, may Allah bless all of us in this blessed month, Amin!

[coddles76]

That's because the overwhelming majority of the world's population don't belong to Christ. There isn't, for instance, two billion plus people living in this Earth who are the Lord's. That would mean that two out of every six people you meet would be Christian, and the world would have an amazing opportunity to see how this life is lived out. Here's what Jesus said regarding this issue:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.

So there's actually people going around, claiming to be Christian and casting out devils, and they don't have an ounce of Jesus! It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because you came to him.

Thankyou for your comments but you have not answered the main essence of the question. Here is the essence of the question again....
"How can God be the son, and at the same time be God himself who walked the earth then sacrificied himself on the cross for the sins of humans"?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being],before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them (An-Nisa 4:159)

[mkh4JC]

Thankyou for your comments but you have not answered the main essence of the question. Here is the essence of the question again....
"How can God be the son, and at the same time be God himself who walked the earth then sacrificied himself on the cross for the sins of humans"?

I'm not a scholar. I'm actually a baby in Christ. But if God had a Son who existed from eternity to eternity alongside him, then his Son would be God too, right?

In terms of this...

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being],before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them (An-Nisa 4:159)[/QUOTE]

As I showed, Jesus said those who profess to be his and yet practice iniquity would be the one's who he'd say he didn't know. He wouldn't say, 'I knew you but you backslid,' he would say, 'I never knew you period.' Jesus was talking about people who walk around and say they are Christian when they really don't have an ounce of him. It's also worth noting that if you as a Christian begin to confess that you don't know Christ or that he hasn't done anything personal for you (saved you from your sins) then he will profess before the Father that he doesn't know you.

[coddles76]

I'm not a scholar. I'm actually a baby in Christ. But if God had a Son who existed from eternity to eternity alongside him, then his Son would be God too, right?

In terms of this...

Ok so now we have another story....They are the same but two seperate entities working side by side.

And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us): "Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)?" (Al-An'am 6:22)

[B]And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being],before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them (An-Nisa 4:159)[/B

As I showed, Jesus said those who profess to be his and yet practice iniquity would be the one's who he'd say he didn't know. He wouldn't say, 'I knew you but you backslid,' he would say, 'I never knew you period.' Jesus was talking about people who walk around and say they are Christian when they really don't have an ounce of him. It's also worth noting that if you as a Christian begin to confess that you don't know Christ or that he hasn't done anything personal for you (saved you from your sins) then he will profess before the Father that he doesn't know you.

Jesus (PBUH) was simply saying in Mathew that I never preached what you are preaching and I never worshipped anybody beside the Almighty God. He will not be associating himself with these people and he will be informing them to depart from him who did not listen to his true preaching which was to Worship the ONE and only true god.
"Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord".(Mark 12:29)
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).

[coddles76]

I'm not a scholar. I'm actually a baby in Christ. But if God had a Son who existed from eternity to eternity alongside him, then his Son would be God too, right?

In terms of this...

Ok so now we have another story....They are the same but two seperate entities working side by side.

And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us): "Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)?" (Al-An'am 6:22)

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being],before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them (An-Nisa 4:159)

As I showed, Jesus said those who profess to be his and yet practice iniquity would be the one's who he'd say he didn't know. He wouldn't say, 'I knew you but you backslid,' he would say, 'I never knew you period.' Jesus was talking about people who walk around and say they are Christian when they really don't have an ounce of him. It's also worth noting that if you as a Christian begin to confess that you don't know Christ or that he hasn't done anything personal for you (saved you from your sins) then he will profess before the Father that he doesn't know you.

Jesus (PBUH) was simply saying in Mathew that I never preached what you are preaching and I never worshipped anybody beside the Almighty God. He will not be associating himself with these people and he will be informing them to depart from him who did not listen to his true preaching which was to Worship the ONE and only true god.
"Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord".(Mark 12:29)
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).

[mkh4JC]

Ok so now we have another story....They are the same but two seperate entities working side by side.

And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us): "Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)?" (Al-An'am 6:22)

You misunderstand. I did not mean to imply the oft touted Islamic 'partners' with God, or that Jesus is a separate entity from God. They are both distinct but are still one. Here's what's in Saint John.

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace a truth.' John 1: 1-4, 14.

Maybe a good illustration can be seen in the first chapter of Genesis 1:26 where God says let us make man in his image and likeness. Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body. So God is triune in nature and still one, just as we are triune in nature and are still one.

Jesus (PBUH) was simply saying in Mathew that I never preached what you are preaching and I never worshipped anybody beside the Almighty God. He will not be associating himself with these people and he will be informing them to depart from him who did not listen to his true preaching which was to Worship the ONE and only true god.

Well, there are many people and witnesses that attest that Jesus is the Son of God throughout the New Testament. If you are considering the veracity of the matter you have many people attesting to this. Jesus himself said in the mouth of two or more witnesses every word shall be established (Matthew 18:16).

[coddles76]

You misunderstand. I did not mean to imply the oft touted Islamic 'partners' with God, or that Jesus is a separate entity from God. They are both distinct but are still one. Here's what's in Saint John.

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace a truth.' John 1: 1-4, 14.

Maybe a good illustration can be seen in the first chapter of Genesis 1:26 where God says let us make man in his image and likeness. Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body. So God is triune in nature and still one, just as we are triune in nature and are still one.



Well, there are many people and witnesses that attest that Jesus is the Son of God throughout the New Testament. If you are considering the veracity of the matter you have many people attesting to this. Jesus himself said in the mouth of two or more witnesses every word shall be established (Matthew 18:16).

I think the Quran speaks of this in a more elloquient way which is more befitting for the might of Allah SWT. Allah SWT did not need to walk the earth for his message to be pronounced. He merely has to say Be and it is and he is way above his creation.

(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah." (Aali Imran 3:45)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah - to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He); It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad SAW) who believes in Allah and His Words [(this Qur'an), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and also Allah's Word: "Be!" - and he was, i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary),], and follow him so that you may be guided." (Al-A'raf 7:158)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)

[MSalman]

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

sorry, how does this verse prove that the son and the father are one God? In fact, this is a prove against you showing that there were two distinct gods. Also, how do we know that the verse is talking about the son and not something else?

[Grace Seeker]

sorry, how does this verse prove that the son and the father are one God? In fact, this is a prove against you showing that there were two distinct gods. Also, how do we know that the verse is talking about the son and not something else?

Honestly, by itself is doesn't. But then again, Fedos didn't quote it in isolation. As he showed, this Word becomes flesh and dwells among us. So, this Word, who the verse you quoted tells us is God. He is not one of many Gods but THE one and only God who appears walking around on earth. And this person that God appears as, the same passage also goes on to tell us is identified by John the Baptist as Jesus. Hence, for the Christian, this is seen as proof that Jesus was the incarnation of the God of the universe who created all things, and "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Now, by itself, all that one could say even now, is that Jesus is God. It is other passages that remind us that within the singular godhead that there is a community of distinct persons, yet still just one and only one God. Perhaps you are having trouble understanding that from a Christian perspective (and even from the persepctive of first century Judiasm, though I suspect Jews would debate this point today) there is nothing non-monothesitic about recognizing a distinction of persons within the one and only God.

[suffiyan007]

I appreciate your openness to developing friendships outside of Islam and your willingness to respect others faiths even as you invite those same people to accept what you believe to not only be superior, but also true. My concern is with how you say we are to determine truth.

Debating does not determine what is true. Debating is a contest of people matching their skills regarding debating; it only appears to be a contest between truth and error. The likelihood of finding truth through debate is no greater than the likelihood of finding truth through any other contest be it a duel, tug-of-war, or playing tiddly-winks. Of course it is helpful to have knowledge and be skilled in logic, but those things can be employed in the pursuit of error and falsehood, as they have been many times over the course of human history.

There are times that I feel compelled to debate because I see people making what I consider to be false statements or using faulty logic. But I must recognize that doing so in forums such as these is actually a futile exercise, I've never yet found any of those discussions to change minds that are already made up before the conversation starts. And all minds here appear to be predisposed toward or against a given set of beliefs from the beginning. So, have the debate to sharpen your ability to present your one set of beliefs, but don't fool yourself into thinking that such discussion really prove anything to another with an opposing view.

Hi Grace Seeker Bro..

How r u? long time no see....


u r starting a great debate and comments and questioning....

:D

[MSalman]

Honestly, by itself is doesn't. But then again, Fedos didn't quote it in isolation. As he showed, this Word becomes flesh and dwells among us. So, this Word, who the verse you quoted tells us is God. He is not one of many Gods but THE one and only God who appears walking around on earth. And this person that God appears as, the same passage also goes on to tell us is identified by John the Baptist as Jesus. Hence, for the Christian, this is seen as proof that Jesus was the incarnation of the God of the universe who created all things, and "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Now, by itself, all that one could say even now, is that Jesus is God. It is other passages that remind us that within the singular godhead that there is a community of distinct persons, yet still just one and only one God. Perhaps you are having trouble understanding that from a Christian perspective (and even from the persepctive of first century Judiasm, though I suspect Jews would debate this point today) there is nothing non-monothesitic about recognizing a distinction of persons within the one and only God.

since you've claimed that i've hard time understanding the concept of trioun god and the fact that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, maybe you can help me. Let's relook at the that verse:

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First: There's no such thing as beginning when it comes to God because He exists from eternity, NO BEGINNING. So does the 2nd god had a beginning?

Second: So when there was beginning of something, there existed a word who was with first god and he was also a god. So we've a first god and a 2nd god; using simple math last time i checked 1 + 1 = 2 not 1.

Third: Three distinct entities having the same attributes doesn't prove that they are all one. How can even someone logically calim that when they also claim they are distinct? The whole conept is contradictory: you got three different gods yet they are one; you got the son who is god and a man at the same time.

Fourth: How can a part of something be the whole thing when it is the part of the whole thing?

[Grace Seeker]

since you've claimed that i've hard time understanding the concept of trioun god and the fact that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, maybe you can help me. Let's relook at the that verse:

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First: There's no such thing as beginning when it comes to God because He exists from eternity, NO BEGINNING. So does the 2nd god had a beginning?

Second: So when there was beginning of something, there existed a word who was with first god and he was also a god. So we've a first god and a 2nd god; using simple math last time i checked 1 + 1 = 2 not 1.

Third: Three distinct entities having the same attributes doesn't prove that they are all one. How can even someone logically calim that when they also claim they are distinct? The whole conept is contradictory: you got three different gods yet they are one; you got the son who is god and a man at the same time.

Fourth: How can a part of something be the whole thing when it is the part of the whole thing?

Whether you are having a hard time understanding the Christian concept of a triune God or not, I don't know. I said "perhaps", not "it seems that you are having a hard time...." It might also be you understand it very well, and simply reject it. But let me be clear, as long as you talk about a first God and then of a 2nd god, you are NOT talking about the Christian understanding of the ONE and ONLY God who happens to be triune with regard to his nature.


I agree that God exists before the beginning. As the creator of all things God is also the creator of both time and space. God exists outside of these things. Humans being locked into time and space are things which cause some to ask questions like "How could God be both in the garden praying and in heaven hearing that prayer at the same time?" (Not saying that you've ever asked that question, but plenty of people over the centuries have.) Such a question is one that assume that God is limited by time and space rather than outside of them, and since he is not such a question seems irrelevant to me. But I digress from your questions.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

(John 1:1-3)

What I note is that the Word was present in the beginning. To me that means that whenever, however the beginning occured, when it did the Word was already present. Thus the Word existed before the beginning, just as God would have to exist before the beginning. Like you said, "There's no such thing as beginning when it comes to God because He exists from eternity, NO BEGINNING." This is just what Moses said:

Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Psalm 90:2

And all of this is true of the WORD as well, because, as the scripture says: "the Word was God."



As far as a first god and second god, as I've already said, not within the Christian understanding of God. Look at some of the titles that Prophet Isaiah said were to be given to the Messiah:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6

That phrase "Everlasting Father" is an interesting one. Especially since Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as "our Father" and many other Jews of the rabbinical period of Judaism also referred to God as Father. In fact, this concept of God's Fatherhood is true from everlasting to everlasting, i.e. something that was true for all of both time and eternity, it is an unchanging attribute of who God is. Curious, why a Jewish prophet from the 7th century before the birth of Jesus would then apply that particular title to the Jewish Messiah and not to God alone, unless he is making some sort of identification for the divine nature of the Messiah the way that John does for the Word? But, Isaiah isn't here to ask, so we may have to leave that question unanswered. What we can do though is talk about what it means to speak of the Fatherhood of God the way that Jesus did.

I just happen to be a father, mabye you are as well. I don't know. But I do know that I have not always been a father. Do you know when I became a father? When my first child was born. It takes having a child to make a man a father. That is what it means to be a father (unless one is talking about the title given to a Catholic priest, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that Jesus was not making such a reference to God). Jesus and the Jews were talking about the nature of the relationship that God had with humanity. But I believe it was more than that, this relationship was just a reflection of something more, something that was true of the very nature of God himself, that nature being that God has always been a Father. That is why Isaiah speaks of the Everlasting Father. In other words, even before the beginning, one of the things that scripture (at least Christian scripture, I know not Islamic scripture) is affirming about God is that one of the aspects that is unchanging about God's being is that of the role of Father. Now, if this is so, and if it was true even before the beginning, then of whom was God the Father. It can only be so if along with the eternal Father, there is an eternal Son. Thus the eternal Father/Son aspect of the nature of God has always been true, since even before the beginning, since before people started counting "1", "2", ... This is not about arithmetic (which again measures time and space, something God is outside of). This is about the nature and character of God who has always been the One God who within himself exists in a divine community of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


I am not sure what you are asking with your last question:

Fourth: How can a part of something be the whole thing when it is the part of the whole thing?

I am not talking about a part of something being the whole or vice versa.

Do you own a pant leg? My guess is you own at least 2 pant legs. When you bought them did you not buy pants? Yet, it was a purchase of single item, not 2 items. Now, if we can in our common every day speach speak of singluar items as plural nouns, and not find this illogical. Why should we not imagine that God might be greater than our logical minds can comprehend and be capable of existing as three distinct persons and yet just one being, for this is all that we are saying. There is just one God; we know him in three distinct persona.

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Grace Seeker Bro..

How r u? long time no see....


u r starting a great debate and comments and questioning....

:D

I've been good. Thanks for asking. Hope you had a good month of Ramadan, and that your celebration of the Eid was a blessed one with your family.


I hardly think I'm starting anything, this seems to be a rather constant discussion on this part of the forum. One I'm not naive enough to think I'm going to resolve to everyone's satisfaction either. But, if people are asking honest questions, I don't mind returning to the topic again. If I find the conversation drifting away from a genuine search for understanding, I'll probably bow out. But with regard to honest questions, should I not do my best to give a defense for the faith that is within me? I invite all such questions, seekers, even doubters as long as they are sincere in their approach.

[hankpin]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

The statement above show how theological debates always ended (at least with Protestants).

Dominus vobiscum

-------------------------------
Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

[doorster]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

The statement above show how theological debates always ended (at least with Protestants).

Dominus vobiscum

-------------------------------
Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

greetings, looks like you are a Catholic? anyways there is Eric here, whom I like and probably you will too

Peace

Sancta Maria, mater Dei

does that mean "Saint Mary, Mother of God"?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you doorster, sadly I am not up on Latin.

greetings, looks like you are a Catholic? anyways there is Eric here, whom you will like very much

Thank you very much for your kind words brother doorster, and welcome to the forum hankpin, I hope you will feel as welcomed as I have.

In theory it should be easier for me to be as one with another Catholic, than it is to be as one with a Muslim, atheist or Hindu.

But the greatest commandments seem to draw me towards striving to be as one with others despite all our differences.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding

Eric

[doorster]

Greetings and peace be with you doorster, sadly I am not up on Latin.



Thank you very much for your kind words brother doorster, and welcome to the forum hankpin, I hope you will feel as welcomed as I have.

In theory it should be easier for me to be as one with another Catholic, than it is to be as one with a Muslim, atheist or Hindu.

But the greatest commandments seem to draw me towards striving to be as one with others despite all our differences.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding

Eric

:D ok I have changed it to look less .. what's the word..

Peace

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

The statement above show how theological debates always ended (at least with Protestants).

^^ and with that, I think he is saying that Protestants say that: "There is no salvation outside (of their) Church" then he ended with "The Lord be with you" (which gave me the impression that he will be like you and will like you)

.................................................. ............
<snip> a Latin translating website <snip>

[ASeeker]

If I was to describe the British Prime Minister by saying that he had balding fair hair, two good eyes, a pronounced Irish accent and that he walked with a limp it might be fair for you to conclude that I was not describing Gordon Brown at all.

The fact that various world religions have a concept of single divine being should not be taken to mean that their respective descriptions of that divine being are the same or even compatible. It is reasonable and logical to conclude that one or even all of the various beliefs about the One God are partly or largely wrongheaded.

I do not belief in a "God" who has power but no personality. Neither do I believe in a "God" who is incapable of dwelling with us as a human being if he wills. With all due respect to Muslims and Islam, I do not believe in the Islamic idea of the divine being but, nevertheless, I absolutely believe in the One God who made himself real and known in the person of Jesus Christ in the Power of His Holy Spirit.

Incidentally, I am a father, a husband and a brother but I am one person.

[MSalman]

Whether you are having a hard time understanding the Christian concept of a triune God or not, I don't know. I said "perhaps", not "it seems that you are having a hard time...." It might also be you understand it very well, and simply reject it. But let me be clear, as long as you talk about a first God and then of a 2nd god, you are NOT talking about the Christian understanding of the ONE and ONLY God who happens to be triune with regard to his nature.

why do i've understand these verses according to trinitarian perspective? Why not unitarian? Your permise is flawed!

I'll go over rest of your post later

I do not belief in a "God" who has power but no personality. Neither do I believe in a "God" who is incapable of dwelling with us as a human being if he wills.

to say that God is like humans is anthropomorphism. If God can become human, how do we differentiate between human and god? No Scriptures please, a logical evidence! On top of that your god was 100% human and 100% god at the same time. Can you please address the contradiction?

With all due respect to Muslims and Islam, I do not believe in the Islamic idea of the divine being but, nevertheless, I absolutely believe in the One God who made himself real and known in the person of Jesus Christ in the Power of His Holy Spirit.

the answer is very simple: polytheists never understood the true meaning of monotheism.

Incidentally, I am a father, a husband and a brother but I am one person.

here we go again: poor trinitarian's analogies. Why do a person need to relay on flawed analogies to understand the creed? Are you father to your brother? Are you father to your wife? According to the first part of the trinity: 3 DIFFERENT persons physically exist NOT one person with three roles.

[doorster]

Incidentally, I am a father, a husband and a brother but I am one person.

and no doubt you can do all three simultaneously in 3 different places:rollseyes

[جوري]

and no doubt you can do all three simultaneously in 3 different places:rollseyes

Are you discounting the time 'God' was in the womb and the time he died?
The best thing for christianity to survive in this day and age really, it to turn it into fairy tales like Narnia, because no logical thinking person can make sense of it otherwise..

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

why do i've understand these verses according to trinitarian perspective? Why not unitarian? Your permise is flawed!

You most certainly do not have to understand these or any other verses from a trinitarian perspective. I tend to agree with Skye Ephémérine when she says that the Christian understanding of God does not make logical sense. There is much about God that defies human logic. That may be a stumbling block too big for some. I can't do anything about that. Yet I still hold these illogical things to be true, for they are declared as true in the scriptues and I submit that nothing is impossible for God.

But if you are going to participate in this thread, I do think that one should at least attempt to understand what Christians actually mean by these verses and how they interpret them. After all we are talking about not just Muslim's Tauwheed, but also Christian Trinity. Or at least it would appear so from the title of this thread. To talk only of one and not fairly represent the other, seems to me to render the whole point of the thread -- asking if they are the same-- to be moot.

[جوري]

God makes logical sense to one capable of or reflecting and drawing upon valid reasoning.
A thinking man doesn't need to be evangelized to understand --there is a God!.. for how did Abraham find God when there was no one to preach to him 'trinity'?-- he sat with himself and reflected upon the universe. There is no point of conditioning your mind to something it rejects time and time again.

[mkh4JC]

Are you discounting the time 'God' was in the womb and the time he died?
The best thing for christianity to survive in this day and age really, it to turn it into fairy tales like Narnia, because no logical thinking person can make sense of it otherwise..

:w:

Well, I will say that that is what things like Bible prophecy is for, serving to convert even the hardest of skeptics. I've heard of many instances of individuals who approach the Bible with a sincere effort to prove it wrong, but when they study it from a prophetical point of view they end up converting.

[جوري]

Well, I will say that that is what things like Bible prophecy is for, serving to convert even the hardest of skeptics. I've heard of many instances of individuals who approach the Bible with a sincere effort to prove it wrong, but when they study it from a prophetical point of view they end up converting.

mystifying indeed since Islamic prophecies all without excepton (small signs that is) have happened and continue on to the big ones.. if that is reason to subscribe to a religion at all
http://www.islaam.org/Al_Mahdi/major_signs.htm

http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/Signs.htm

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/unseen/0002.htm

and here is one of particular interest using the book of Daniel

http://www.islaam.com/books/0_preface.htm

perhaps you were misinterpreting?

if that is all you had to rely on, sadly you'd be better off following Nostradamus...


cheers

[mkh4JC]

mystifying indeed since Islamic prophecies all without excepton (small signs that is) have happened and continue on to the big ones.. if that is reason to subscribe to a religion at all
http://www.islaam.org/Al_Mahdi/major_signs.htm

http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/Signs.htm

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/unseen/0002.htm

and here is one of particular interest using the book of Daniel

http://www.islaam.com/books/0_preface.htm

perhaps you were misinterpreting?

if that is all you had to rely on, sadly you'd be better off following Nostradamus...


cheers

Actually, it didn't take that at all for me to accept Christ. My conversion came about because I got into an argument with a coworker who insisted that you had to be baptized in order to be saved. I was referring to the hardest of skeptics. And I don't think a lot of the Old Testament prophecies relating to the children of Israel are mystifiying, nor the Messianic ones (Isaiah 53 comes to mind).

[جوري]

If you want to speak of your take, then that is your take, some folks take leads them to Daoism for similar reasons.

cheers

[mkh4JC]

If you want to speak of your take, then that is your take, some folks take leads them to Daoism for similar reasons.

cheers

Perhaps I should clarify my statement. It doesn't matter how you come to Christ, so long as you come. Some people get to the ends of themselves, living their lives in an abundance of sin, and that brings them to the Lord, where they can find freedom and deliverance from sin. Others don't nearly get to that point, and accept him at a young age. Me personally, I too was bound with a number of adverse lifestyles (sexual perversion being one) and mindsets, despite growing up in a Christian enviornment (my father was called to be a pastor). But the Lord chose to save me how he chose to save me.

[جوري]

Perhaps I should clarify my statement. It doesn't matter how you come to Christ, so long as you come. Some people get to the ends of themselves, living their lives in an abundance of sin, and that brings them to the Lord, where they can find freedom and deliverance from sin.

first it was prophecies influencing people in general, then it was your story, then it doesn't matter how to come to. OK!

Taking a man for a God is in and of itself a sin according to the universal concept of monotheism without alluding to any particular doctrine therein!

Others don't nearly get to that point, and accept him at a young age. Me personally, I too was bound with a number of adverse lifestyles (sexual perversion being one) and mindsets, despite growing up in a Christian enviornment (my father was called to be a pastor). But the Lord chose to save me how he chose to save me.

All the best on your chosen faith!

cheers

[barrio79]

first it was prophecies influencing people in general, then it was your story, then it doesn't matter how to come to. OK!

Taking a man for a God is in and of itself a sin according to the universal concept of monotheism without alluding to any particular doctrine therein!





All the best on your chosen faith!

cheers

Belief in differing religious viewpoints is all down to one’s faith - chosen or otherwise.

But faith could be something force fed to child for its first seven years of life or it could be something you accept due to your living in a closed community with no proper education facilities allowed/available or it could be just something one decides to follow or believe in one sunny morning, just like Bill O’Reilly on Fox News said it was faith that allowed him to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. No scientific data required.

But having great faith does not put oneself in a superior intellectual zone to anybody else.

[جوري]

Belief in differing religious viewpoints is all down to one’s faith - chosen or otherwise.

indeed, some beliefs however are more believable than others, for instance, I can believe that someone who is suffering a headache is indeed suffering a headache because it is the collective human condition and we can all relate to pain, though we have no way to measure it. No pain-0-meter --it is all subjective, over say someone stating they are of lucid mind and body yet seeing a flying pumpkins who are also lions and Greek at 12 am and expecting that everyone else should jump on the same band wagon!

But faith could be something force fed to child for its first seven years of life or it could be something you accept due to your living in a closed community with no proper education facilities allowed/available or it could be just something one decides to follow or believe in one sunny morning, just like Bill O’Reilly on Fox News said it was faith that allowed him to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. No scientific data required.

according to piaget amongst other things, children learn by imitation of adults. So if their parents are alcoholics, or fanatics or atheists, they will model that behavior not simply out of eagerness to please, but because it is their introduction to the world. So you can't really safeguard any children against anything, unless you wish to have them all collectively transferred to some android colony where they will have no nurture or contact with humans but subjected to one man's conception of proper upbringing. Frankly I think it is best to cultivate their talents and instill some morality while one can. Which ever way it is sliced, they will be influenced by something or another, better religion than debauchery!

But having great faith does not put oneself in a superior intellectual zone to anybody else.

It depends on what other accolades the faith holder has, and how logical their testimony!

and that goes both way by the way, for instance and forgive me (I assume you of no faith) since you speak of is to unfavorably, yet, in my eyes you have lost all credibility, a direct result of a very emotional thread you've shared that doesn't have an ounce of intellectual thought and meant to appeal to demagoguery!

cheers

[mkh4JC]

first it was prophecies influencing people in general, then it was your story, then it doesn't matter how to come to. OK!

I said that I have heard of many people who set out to prove the Bible wrong and when given the challenge they begin to research Biblical prophecy and choose to accept Christ based on what they find. So for them that's what it took for them to come to know Christ. I didn't say people in general for that example, I was referring to the hardcore skeptic. But that doesn't mean that everyone's journey is the same, nor should it be.

Others, as I said, come to the ends of themselves, after having been exposed to the harsh realities of this fallen world we live in, and God the Father through the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and they accept Christ and receive a new start. They become--like the previous example and all other Christians--born again, born from above and of the incorruptible spirit of God. So maybe the first example is a category of hardcore atheists and this one is an example of those who have seen all that a life of sin has to offer.

And others still perhaps grew up with blood washed, fire baptized parents, saw with their own eyes the difference between their parents lifestyles and those of other adults living in the world (even at that young age) and came to know Jesus before they became ensnared in the ways of the world.

My example nor any other was/is not meant to be the prototypical way a person comes to know Christ.

Just like the prayer of salvation is not set and differs from person to person, every Christian has their own story for how they came to know the saving power and grace of God almighty.

[جوري]

I said that I have heard of many people who set out to prove the Bible wrong and when given the challenge they begin to research Biblical prophecy and choose to accept Christ based on what they find. So for them that's what it took for them to come to know Christ. I didn't say people in general for that example, I was referring to the hardcore skeptic. But that doesn't mean that everyone's journey is the same, nor should it be.

Others, as I said, come to the ends of themselves, after having been exposed to the harsh realities of this fallen world we live in, and God the Father through the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and they accept Christ and receive a new start. They become--like the previous example and all other Christians--born again, born from above and of the incorruptible spirit of God. So maybe the first example is a category of hardcore atheists and this one is an example of those who have seen all that a life of sin has to offer.

And others still perhaps grew up with blood washed, fire baptized parents, saw with their own eyes the difference between their parents lifestyles and those of other adults living in the world (even at that young age) and came to know Jesus before they became ensnared in the ways of the world.

My example nor any other was/is not meant to be the prototypical way a person comes to know Christ.

Just like the prayer of salvation is not set and differs from person to person, every Christian has their own story for how they came to know the saving power and grace of God almighty.

forgive me but how does this concern me? I have already congratulated you on your chosen path, but it doesn't have any impact on me nor is it an answer to the topic presented. Which is to say we pray to the same God.. we clearly don't. Christians worship a man named Jesus, have given him a mother and two alter egos. Muslims worship the one who created Jesus/Mary and the archangel (Gabriel) and the rest of the universe!

It is that simple!

cheers

[MustafaMc]

forgive me but how does this concern me? I have already congratulated you on your chosen path, but it doesn't have any impact on me nor is it an answer to the topic presented. Which is to say we pray to the same God.. we clearly don't. Christians worship a man named Jesus, have given him a mother and two alter egos. Muslims worship the one who created Jesus/Mary and the archangel (Gabriel) and the rest of the universe!

It is that simple!

cheers

Yes, it is amazingly simple for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Christians worship the human Jesus (peace upon him) son of Mary as God, but Muslims don't worship Jesus as God. Rather we worship Allah Who said, "Be" and Jesus was miraculously created in Mary's womb. The likeness of Jesus in Islam is the same as Adam who had no father or mother, but rather was created by Allah from clay.

In Christianity, the likeness of Jesus is the same as Mechizedek. Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most High God ... 3 Without father, without mother, without geneology, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. Actually Jesus had a mother (Mary), a geneology (Luke 23), a beginning of days (in Bethlehem) and an end to his life (supposedly on Calvary). Therefore Mechizedek has more right to be worshiped than Jesus, because the description given to him in Hebrews 7:3 is that of God Himself!

[Grace Seeker]

In Christianity, the likeness of Jesus is the same as Mechizedek. Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most High God ... 3 Without father, without mother, without geneology, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. Actually Jesus had a mother (Mary), a geneology (Luke 23), a beginning of days (in Bethlehem) and an end to his life (supposedly on Calvary). Therefore Mechizedek has more right to be worshiped than Jesus, because the description given to him in Hebrews 7:3 is that of God Himself!

That is an interesting interpretation of that passage, one I have never encountered before. My understanding is significantly different. I note that the terms "without father" and "without mother" are used in the Greek, from which our present letter to the Hebrews is translated, to refer to persons on unknown parentage, for illegitimate children, for people who come from unimportant families, and sometimes for dieties who were suppose tot ake their origin from one sex only. Now, some scholars do hold that Mexhizedek is views in this last mentioned way and is therefore being pictured as an angelic being. But it seem to me much more likely that the author is proceeding along the lines that the silences of Scripture (refering now to the account of Melchizedek in Genesis) are just as much due to inspiration as are its statements. Thus as nothing is recorded about the parentage of Melchizedek in Genesis or elsewhere (for he is mentioned once in the Pslams also, the passage which the author of Hebrews quotes), it is not necessarily to be assumed that he had no parents but simply that the absence of the record is significant, and probably indicates that his parentage is not.

I would also note that Melchizedek is "made like the Son of God" while Jesus is set forth to in fact be the Son of God. The two do share some things in common, but Jesus is still being lifted up by the author of Hebrews in a way that is superior to Melchizedek.

[barrio79]

""

It depends on what other accolades the faith holder has, and how logical their testimony!

and that goes both way by the way, for instance and forgive me (I assume you of no faith) since you speak of is to unfavorably, yet, in my eyes you have lost all credibility, a direct result of a very emotional thread you've shared that doesn't have an ounce of intellectual thought and meant to appeal to demagoguery!""


I think you are right again as I cannot understand what is meant in the above passage , other than it seems to contain some negative connotations..