For Muslims: Our attitudes towards Kuffars

[AntiKarateKid]

Hey guys, recently I was wondering about this and am looking for your opinions ( or references from the Quran). Let me start, when I see.. lets say a Hindu who says they feel one with God. I am absolutely unsure about what to think here. Allah has specifically forbidden paganism and yet here who is claiming to have a strong connection with him. I often regard these people with a mix of amusement and annoyance. They sit down with lies and smile at us and say " to each his own religion". I wondered if they would really tell Allah... " O I thought I could choose whichever I wanted as long as I felt that "connection".

What am I supposed to think about Jews, Christians, Hindus etc who claim that they have a bond with Allah when their very beliefs and ways of life contradict his prescribed ones?

[AntiKarateKid]

so any brothers or sisters got anything?

[Skavau]

Can I comment as a Non-Muslim?

I'm glad you've asked this question. It shows that you understand that other people can hold a deeply contradictory belief system to your own and believe it sincerely.

[Serving Islam]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Hey guys, recently I was wondering about this and am looking for your opinions ( or references from the Quran). Let me start, when I see.. lets say a Hindu who says they feel one with God. I am absolutely unsure about what to think here. Allah has specifically forbidden paganism and yet here who is claiming to have a strong connection with him. I often regard these people with a mix of amusement and annoyance. They sit down with lies and smile at us and say " to each his own religion". I wondered if they would really tell Allah... " O I thought I could choose whichever I wanted as long as I felt that "connection".

What am I supposed to think about Jews, Christians, Hindus etc who claim that they have a bond with Allah when their very beliefs and ways of life contradict his prescribed ones?

Allah gives the answer:

Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-

"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight. Qur’an 18:103-105

As you can see, they maybe happy with what they have, but that doesn’t make them right at all. Plus, if we analyze the Hindu scriptures carefully, or the Christian Bible, you will clearly see that the followers of these religions are not really “following” the teachings prescribed in their own ‘books of authority’, almost 90% of their practices are based on traditional beliefs and not on “God’s alleged books”.

Hope this answers your question and make sense insh a Allah.

Salam
Serving Islam.

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[Woodrow]

I feel we must first understand that non-Muslims can have a desire to love Allaah(swt) and are sincere in their beliefs.

We should not doubt their love of Allaah(swt)

I personally feel that if a non-Muslim I know does not accept Islam, it is because I have failed to live it fully.

[Serving Islam]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

I personally feel that if a non-Muslim I know does not accept Islam, it is because I have failed to live it fully.

Tha's another very good point brother, may Allah reward you for that reminder.

Salam
Serving Islam.

[Grace Seeker]

Plus, if we analyze the Hindu scriptures carefully, or the Christian Bible, you will clearly see that the followers of these religions are not really “following” the teachings prescribed in their own ‘books of authority’, almost 90% of their practices are based on traditional beliefs and not on “God’s alleged books”.

Be careful making statements like that:

1) Be careful, I might ask you to defend your "90%" figure. Are you well enough aware of all the practices of those your are referring to so that you can number them off in order to do that math you have proposed? Are you so familiar with "God's alleged books" so that you know which of these practices are based on them and which are based on "traditional beliefs". Have you factored in the very real possibility that many "traditional beliefs" may have become traditions incorporating practices originally based on "God's alleged books", so that practices based on those "traditional beliefs" are also in fact historically based on "God's alleged books"?

2) It is a common for all people to have practices based simply on how they were raised. Why for instance, do Americans drive on the right side of the road and the British drive on the left? Muslims, no less than other people, have many such practices that are just traditions they have probably never even thought about. Be careful, in casting dispersions on the practices of Hindus and Christians, you might just be throwing stones in a glass house.


3) Gross generalizations and stereotypes tend to tell us relatively little about flesh and blood human beings. It is tempting to see people who are different from us as somehow inferior as well. But, be careful, that type of building one's self up by putting others down is, in the long run, actually more demeaning to the character of the person who does the belittling of others based on preconcieved prejudices than to anyone else.

[aamirsaab]

Hey guys, recently I was wondering about this and am looking for your opinions ( or references from the Quran). Let me start, when I see.. lets say a Hindu who says they feel one with God. I am absolutely unsure about what to think here. Allah has specifically forbidden paganism and yet here who is claiming to have a strong connection with him. I often regard these people with a mix of amusement and annoyance. They sit down with lies and smile at us and say " to each his own religion". I wondered if they would really tell Allah... " O I thought I could choose whichever I wanted as long as I felt that "connection".

What am I supposed to think about Jews, Christians, Hindus etc who claim that they have a bond with Allah when their very beliefs and ways of life contradict his prescribed ones?

One is still able to have a connection with Allah. The religion is merely the path towards God. It's like a mobile phone connection; Allah is the thing being called but you can use different networks (or religions) to contact Him.

[Keltoi]

One is still able to have a connection with Allah. The religion is merely the path towards God. It's like a mobile phone connection; Allah is the thing being called but you can use different networks (or religions) to contact Him.

That is a very open-minded approach. One I tend to hold as well.

[Grace Seeker]

One is still able to have a connection with Allah. The religion is merely the path towards God. It's like a mobile phone connection; Allah is the thing being called but you can use different networks (or religions) to contact Him.

Hmmmmm. I agree with Keltoi, you show great acceptance of others with such a viewpoint. I think that is the first time I've heard such a view expressed so straightforwardly on this board. Would you mind fleshing it out a little more. For instance, how does the attitude you expressed relate to the view generally expressed by other Muslims here that Christians (for just one example) commit shirk in their worship of Jesus?

[Keltoi]

Perhaps aamirsaab sees it as I do, which is that seeking a relationship with God is seeking a relationship with God. The different ways we go about it may be in disagreement, to say the least, but the seeking of God is still there and is very important.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Believe it or not, Allah isn't exclusive to Islam. He was worshipped long before Muslims came upon this earth!

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

.... Would you mind fleshing it out a little more. For instance, how does the attitude you expressed relate to the view generally expressed by other Muslims here that Christians (for just one example) commit shirk in their worship of Jesus?

Whilst I believe they are committing shirk (by worshipping Jesus), they still have a connection to God, ultimately. One of the things that made me realise this was actually reading some of Glo's and Eric H's posts on this forum; some of their replies indicate that they have/had felt a connection with God in a similar manner to the connection I myself have/had. After some further thought on religion and the concept of God throughout history (as Avar Allah Noor stated; people were worshipping Allah long before Islam came to this world) I came to the conclusion that God's presence can be (and is) felt by anyone. The religion is really just the methodology of (or the map one uses when) obeying Allah

Perhaps aamirsaab sees it as I do, which is that seeking a relationship with God is seeking a relationship with God. The different ways we go about it may be in disagreement, to say the least, but the seeking of God is still there and is very important.

That's pretty much the core of it. Personally I believe that Islam is the best way to connect with God but not everyone sees Islam in the same light as I do so they choose a different path; one that they understand (not neccessarily better or worse - just different)

[Serving Islam]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Grace Seeker

Be careful making statements like that:

Yes I am careful, and what I said is just obvious, you may go to Philippines, Mexico, Egypt, Italy, UK, India, Hong Kong and China etc and at the same times, study the religions/Scriptures of those nations and you can easily figure out that they are not really following their scriptures, but rather traditions.

Are you well enough aware of all the practices of those your are referring to so that you can number them off in order to do that math you have proposed?

Yes I am.

Are you so familiar with "God's alleged books" so that you know which of these practices are based on them and which are based on "traditional beliefs".

Yes I am very well aware of the Bible, Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Ramayana, Gitas and many other Scriptures.

Have you factored in the very real possibility that many "traditional beliefs" may have become traditions incorporating practices originally based on "God's alleged books", so that practices based on those "traditional beliefs" are also in fact historically based on "God's alleged books"?

I know the differences already, since I have spent quite sometimes in studying those scriptures, lived with Christians, married from them, attended their mass and Bible classes, and many more...

It is a common for all people to have practices based simply on how they were raised. Why for instance, do Americans drive on the right side of the road and the British drive on the left? Muslims, no less than other people, have many such practices that are just traditions they have probably never even thought about. Be careful, in casting dispersions on the practices of Hindus and Christians, you might just be throwing stones in a glass house.

I am not against traditions of other nations; I am only speaking of those traditions that go against the religion or religious scriptures. Like for example, the Catholic Christians in Philippines do worship a little image called “Santo Nino”/ “Baby saint” , referring to Jesus when he was a child, every year on a particular day, they hold that image of Santo Nino and walk around in the street praising this little child, bow down to him, touch him etc and at the end of the day they take the image to the Church and start praying to him all night. If you can show me where does the Bible encourage such practices, I will really appreciate it.

And I do agree with you, that even some Muslims go against the teaching of the Qur’an by their traditional practices, in which we also point out their faults and try hard to educate them.

Gross generalizations and stereotypes tend to tell us relatively little about flesh and blood human beings. It is tempting to see people who are different from us as somehow inferior as well. But, be careful, that type of building one's self up by putting others down is, in the long run, actually more demeaning to the character of the person who does the belittling of others based on preconcieved prejudices than to anyone else.

I am not putting anyone down here and sorry if I offended you by speaking the truth, but this is what I’ve observed during my course of study and by experience during traveling and communicating with people from different faiths.

Salam
Serving Islam

[Uthman]

One is still able to have a connection with Allah. The religion is merely the path towards God. It's like a mobile phone connection; Allah is the thing being called but you can use different networks (or religions) to contact Him.

I agree completely. Of course, to have the greatest connection you must use the network that Allah wants you to use which is the root of where we differ. That doesn't stop me from having a great deal of respect for people like glo and Eric H as well as Keltoi and Grace Seeker who are quite clearly very sincere in their approach towards Allah. To mistreat somebody because of their sincere beliefs is the height of stupidity.

[barney]

Most Kuffar in the west are not seeking god. Less than 8% of Britons attend church They simply deny "his" existance, and based on this, dont think once a year about "him".

To assume that Kuffar have the same levels of active practicement of their religion as Muslims is a mistake.
So whats the attitude to such Kuffar?

[Uthman]

Most Kuffar in the west are not seeking god. Less than 8% of Britons attend church They simply deny "his" existance, and based on this, dont think once a year about "him".

To assume that Kuffar have the same levels of active practicement of their religion as Muslims is a mistake.
So whats the attitude to such Kuffar?

We should regard them as opportunities for Da'wah which can earn us some serious reward 'up there'. :)

[TrueStranger]

I feel we must first understand that non-Muslims can have a desire to love Allaah(swt) and are sincere in their beliefs.

We should not doubt their love of Allaah(swt)

I personally feel that if a non-Muslim I know does not accept Islam, it is because I have failed to live it fully.

Bro no disrespect, but the Prophet Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) lived Islam fully, and there were people who didn't accept Islam, including his uncle.

You could live Islam fully, and still there will be people who won't accept Islam. It is not your fault.

:w:

[barney]

there were people who didn't accept Islam, including his uncle.

I thought It was the Prophets uncle, who explained to Mohammed that the "visitation" in the cave was Gabrial?

[crayon]

He had several uncles, but yeah, I think the one you're referring to is the one that died as a non muslim. (someone correct me if i'm wrong, please)

[TrueStranger]

I thought It was the Prophets uncle, who explained to Mohammed that the "visitation" in the cave was Gabrial?

His uncle Abu Lahab

In The Name of Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful

1. May the hands of Abu Lahab perish, may he (himself) perish.

2. His wealth avails him not, neither what he had earned.

3. Soon will he roast in a flaming fire,

4. And his wife, the bearer of the firewood,

5. Upon her neck a rope of twisted palm-fibre.
Commentary :

Perish the Hands of Abu Lahab!

As it was said in the 'Occasion of Revelation Of the Sura', this Sura is, indeed, an answer to the disgraceful words of Abu Lahab; the Prophet's uncle and the son of Abdul Muttalib. Among those people he was one of the strongest enemies of Islam. When he heard the clear, general invitation of the holy Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.) and his warning of the punishment of Allah, he said: Perdition to thee! Was it for this that thou assembled us? Then, the Holy Qur'an answers him: May the hands of Abu Lahab perish, may he (himself) perish.

terms /tab/ and /tabab/, as Raqib cites in Mufradat, mean 'the constant loss', but Tabarsi cites in Majma'-al-Bayan' that 'the meaning is a loss which leads to perdition'.

Some of the philologists have rendered it to mean 'to cut' which, perhaps, is for the reason that a constant loss naturally leads to a stop. However, from all these meanings it is concluded that it is the same meaning that was said in the verse.

Of course, this perdition may refer to this world or to the spiritual world or both of them.

Why does the Holy Qur'an, inspite of its common style, mention Abu Lahab, so strongly scorned, by name?

To make the answer of this question clear, Abu Lahab should be introduced.

Abu Lahab, i.e. the Father of the Flames, whose name was 'Abdul-'Uzza and means the servant of the idol 'Uzza, was a man of fiery temperament with a reddish face. This nickname, perhaps, was chosen for him, because, 'lahab', in Arabic, means 'a flame of fire'.

Read more :D

http://www.balagh.net/english/quran/...11/111_1-5.htm

[crayon]

Abu Talib is the one I was referring to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Tal...bd_al-Muttalib

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Woodrow and your wife,

I personally feel that if a non-Muslim I know does not accept Islam, it is because I have failed to live it fully.

I think it is always far better to try and change oneself, rather than to try and change other people.

In the spirit of searching for a lasting married peace and harmony,

Eric

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I personally feel that if a non-Muslim I know does not accept Islam, it is because I have failed to live it fully.

abu talib refused islaam, the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam lived islaam fully.



also non-muslims might know God but to love him is to follow and obey him. They dont do that hence they follow iblis, he set their trend.

[YusufNoor]

I thought It was the Prophets uncle, who explained to Mohammed that the "visitation" in the cave was Gabrial?

:sl:
are you referring to:

Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin ‘Abd Al-‘Uzza, it was Khadija's [his wife] cousin

At length, unexpectedly, the Truth (the angel) came to him and said, "Recite." "I cannot recite," he (Muhammad [pbuh]) said. The Prophet [pbuh] described: "Then he took me and squeezed me vehemently and then let me go and repeated the order ‘Recite.’ ‘I cannot recite’ said I, and once again he squeezed me and let me till I was exhausted. Then he said: ‘Recite.’ I said ‘I cannot recite.’ He squeezed me for a third time and then let me go and said:

"Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists), has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! and your Lord is the Most Generous.’" [Al-Qur'an 96:1-3]

The Prophet [pbuh] repeated these verses. He was trembling with fear. At this stage, he came back to his wife Khadijah, and said, "Cover me, ... cover me." They covered him until he restored security. He apprised Khadijah of the incident of the cave and added that he was horrified. His wife tried to soothe him and reassured him saying, "Allâh will never disgrace you. You unite uterine relations; you bear the burden of the weak; you help the poor and the needy, you entertain the guests and endure hardships in the path of truthfulness."

She set out with the Prophet [pbuh] to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin ‘Abd Al-‘Uzza, who had embraced Christianity in the pre-Islamic period, and used to write the Bible in Hebrew. He was a blind old man. Khadijah said: "My cousin! Listen to your nephew!" Waraqa said: "O my nephew! What did you see?" The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] told him what had happened to him. Waraqa replied: "This is ‘Namus’ i.e. (the angel who is entrusted with Divine Secrets) that Allâh sent to Moses. I wish I were younger. I wish I could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Muhammad [pbuh] asked: "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa answered in the affirmative and said: "Anyone who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should be alive till that day, then I would support you strongly." A few days later Waraqa died and the revelation also subsided.

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...e%20Revelation

[coddles76]

Bro no disrespect, but the Prophet Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) lived Islam fully, and there were people who didn't accept Islam, including his uncle.

You could live Islam fully, and still there will be people who won't accept Islam. It is not your fault.

:w:

I see yourpoint truestranger and Allah SWT confirms this

Whomsoever Allah sends astray, none can guide him; and He lets them wander blindly in their transgressions. (Al-A'raf 7:186)

Its Only Allah SWT whom guides onto the straight and even if you work day and night to guide someone its only by the acceptance and mercy of Allah SWT that they will be guided.

[coddles76]

Please people don't make this into a debate again and as Keltoi and Eric H have specified that debating will get nowhere. Its better to state the truth and facts and not allow politics to take over. Truth will always prevail over falsehood. Allah SWT has specifically informed us that no other way of life accept Islam(submission) will be accepted on the day of judegment so there is no room for debate. Don't debate the words of Allah SWT and make it a political issue. Accept the words as Allah SWT has spoken and then work towards fulfilling those goals that will please him in which will give you salvation on the day of judgement.

O you who believe! Fear Allah (by doing all that He has ordered and by abstaining from all that He has forbidden) as He should be feared. [Obey Him, be thankful to Him, and remember Him always], and die not except in a state of Islam (as Muslims) with complete submission to Allah. (Aali Imran 3:102)

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85)

Simple as that....

[aamirsaab]

...
To assume that Kuffar have the same levels of active practicement of their religion as Muslims is a mistake.
So whats the attitude to such Kuffar?

A lot of my friends fit this description - I simply just do not talk about Islam to them. If they ask (which a couple have done) then I speak about it. Otherwise, religion is never mentioned - it's something I practice daily but if noone asks, I ain't gonna tell them. Like, noone asks what colour pants I wear, so I wouldn't tell them unless they did. In simplest terms; it doesn't matter really - Islam has never been a direct problem with any of my friends (well, not to my face atleast !) You go your way, I go mine sort of deal.

Secondly, to preach or teach religion requires you yourself to actually have learnt it fully. I know enough to follow it and converse with it amongst fellow muslims, but not enough to preach/teach effectively. So until I do, the only form of dawa (preaching) I can do is call them to God - but again, provided they ask. I don't particularly like preaching to someone who couldn't care less!

[Germanrose20]

AamirSaab,

I agree with you on this. I try to live my life according to the Quran, but there is much improvement room for me which I am working on. Some co-workers and most of my friends know I am a muslim now, and for the most part it has brought about questions. I have some friends who chose to break off contact with me, but that is how this life is. I will not force them to talk to me since I believe that is un-islamic.
I do not preach Islam since I am not a scholar. I awnser questions to the best of my abilities, and Insha'Allah, the people I talk to will accept Islam, but I do not force them, nor do I look down upon anyone who is not a muslim.
As a convert/revert my whole family is Catholic except for a few baptists. None of the really understand my desicion to accept Islam even though I have tried to explain it. I can only hope that they see the change in my behavior and lifestyle for the better and can at least accept that.

My behavior to the "Kuffars" is one of politeness and respect. That is how I was brought up, you always treat someone with respect and politeness, no matter what their views/beliefs are.

[Fazl Ahmad]

If one wishes to undertake a journey to a particular city, he must follow a certain route, he cannot just get on the road and start driving with the mere intention of reaching a destination, he must also possess certain amount of knowledge that which route will effectively and efficiently take him where he needs to get to. The same is true for achieving nearness to Allah holy and exalted is He, simply desiring nearness to Him is not enough, you have to embark upon the path of devotion (Islam) which is leading straight to Him. There is no other path other than the path of devotion which is going towards Allah, and like the sacred Quran says: The correct religion in the sight of Allah is Islam (aali Imran 3:19)

All actions must possess a true and sincere purpose, and the only purpose which Allah will accept is devotion to Him, otherwise doing good deeds is a futile effort. The difference between Hitler and mother Theresa is the difference between the heavens and the earth, but if neither of these people lived their life in the devotion of Allah, than in reality there is no difference in their status in His Sight.

[AntiKarateKid]

AamirSaab,

I agree with you on this. I try to live my life according to the Quran, but there is much improvement room for me which I am working on. Some co-workers and most of my friends know I am a muslim now, and for the most part it has brought about questions. I have some friends who chose to break off contact with me, but that is how this life is. I will not force them to talk to me since I believe that is un-islamic.
I do not preach Islam since I am not a scholar. I awnser questions to the best of my abilities, and Insha'Allah, the people I talk to will accept Islam, but I do not force them, nor do I look down upon anyone who is not a muslim.
As a convert/revert my whole family is Catholic except for a few baptists. None of the really understand my desicion to accept Islam even though I have tried to explain it. I can only hope that they see the change in my behavior and lifestyle for the better and can at least accept that.

My behavior to the "Kuffars" is one of politeness and respect. That is how I was brought up, you always treat someone with respect and politeness, no matter what their views/beliefs are.

I will treat them with politeness sure. But I will only respect their right to choose a belief. NOT the belief itself. What would have happened if the Prophets just let the polytheists go their own merry way? Abraham smashed his father's idols. Moses showed the Pharoh he was a fool. The Prophet smashed the idols in the Kaaba.

The people were free to choose if the wanted to listen to them but by NO MEANS did we "respect their faith" in the idols. I wills till treat them with politeness but will never hold their beliefs in high regard.


It is kinda annoying that Muslims these days are too timid to tell people like polytheists that they are wrong ( in a polite manner if they choose to listen). I will not stand by and let them blunder on while using " I respect their faith" as my excuse for laxity.

[Pygoscelis]

A lot of my friends fit this description - I simply just do not talk about Islam to them. If they ask (which a couple have done) then I speak about it. Otherwise, religion is never mentioned - it's something I practice daily but if noone asks, I ain't gonna tell them. Like, noone asks what colour pants I wear, so I wouldn't tell them unless they did. In simplest terms; it doesn't matter really - Islam has never been a direct problem with any of my friends (well, not to my face atleast !) You go your way, I go mine sort of deal.

This is very refreshing to hear. I wish all muslims, christians, and other religious people felt the same way you do. I wouldn't be anti-religious if that was the case.

[Uthman]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

This is very refreshing to hear. I wish all muslims, christians, and other religious people felt the same way you do. I wouldn't be anti-religious if that was the case.

Why are you anti-religious? Instead, shouldn't you be anti-people-who-claim-to-follow-the-teachings-of-their-religion-but-in-actual-fact-don't? :D

[AhlaamBella]

This is very refreshing to hear. I wish all muslims, christians, and other religious people felt the same way you do. I wouldn't be anti-religious if that was the case.

Judge a religion by the religion itself... not by it's followers :)

[Grace Seeker]

And I do agree with you, that even some Muslims go against the teaching of the Qur’an by their traditional practices, in which we also point out their faults and try hard to educate them.

Some? As best as I can tell, all Muslims I know admit to being imperfect in their practice of righteousness as defined by Islam. All Christians are imperfect too, I don't mean to imply that one group is unique in this. And that is really my point. As you said that Christians don't practice their traditions, really no one does. But, I think to claim, as you do, that "90% of [Christian] practices are based on traditional beliefs" needs more substantiation than just an allegation.

In my comments, I pointed out that a lot of an individual's daily practices are not religious practices at all. Hence they often aren't mentioned in sacred scriptures at all. Recognizing that, what would be wrong with "traditional" practices? I also tried to point out that many "traditional" practices are in fact originally rooted in scripture. Hence a practice could qualify as being both "traditional" and based on God's instructions at the same time. This would make it highly unlikely that your 90% figure is even close to the mark.

But you did clarify that you were talking only about religious practices. This is quite a different thing than what you actually first wrote. But still, I think your estimation is considerably inflated. It isn't that people don't err as you described. But that such errs aren't the dominate practice. Indeed, I think it is their uniqueness that draws attention to them when encountered by those who come from other traditions. My own estimation, that I can't substantiate any better than you did, is that such practices are even less than 10%. Not that they should exist at all, but human beings tend to create traditions and the majority of them are innocuous in character. My daughter's family has one of gathering at the end of Seker Bayrami for a big family party. Such a practice isn't spelled out in the sacred texts of Islam, I suppose some might even call it an innovation, but I don't think it is wrong to do. Do you?

[Grace Seeker]

This is very refreshing to hear. I wish all muslims, christians, and other religious people felt the same way you do. I wouldn't be anti-religious if that was the case.

It is refreshing to hear. There are all types in all faiths. Some are in your face. And some never speak up at all, even when asked. May you find that the people of faith who you meet and know in life fall some place inbetween those extremes.

[aamirsaab]

This is very refreshing to hear. I wish all muslims, christians, and other religious people felt the same way you do. I wouldn't be anti-religious if that was the case.

Lol. I should clarify my view point (just in case): The reason I take the approach I have told you guys is for the following reasons:

1) I don't know enough about Islam to properly preach (like how the scholars and imaams are able to)
2) I'm a busy man.
3) The only time I gave any explanation of Islam (to my peers) was over some chicken wings (on two seperate occasions!).

So basically, until those 3 criteria (especially number 3!) are met, I ain't saying jack!

[Grace Seeker]

Lol. I should clarify my view point (just in case): So basically, until those 3 criteria (especially number 3!) are met, I ain't saying jack!

I'm free for lunch most of the month of September. :bump:

[SixTen]

Although, aamirsaab has shown somewhat admirable tolerance, his network analogy is probably not representative of Islam. Allah, according to the Qur'an, does not accept any religion other than Islam - he has made Islam your religion to follow. So, I can't say you can call it a connection with Allah - if you follow say Hinduism. Yes, you will be making some sort of mental connection, but Islamically, it is seen as void, null, you would be worshipping a false God. Today, it is actually a common progressionists viewpoint, that their are X religions, all leading to the same path, but fundamentally, this is deviated to the teachings of Islam.

Also, IbnAbdulHakim has made a very good point, no one can blame another person for his disbelief - I do understand your point Woodrow, that muslims should draw people onto Islam by their actions, but even if you don't, do good deeds etc, its not a reason for people to disbelief the message - as your example is not editing the message.

[AntiKarateKid]

Although, aamirsaab has shown somewhat admirable tolerance, his network analogy is probably not representative of Islam. Allah, according to the Qur'an, does not accept any religion other than Islam - he has made Islam your religion to follow. So, I can't say you can call it a connection with Allah - if you follow say Hinduism. Yes, you will be making some sort of mental connection, but Islamically, it is seen as void, null, you would be worshipping a false God. Today, it is actually a common progressionists viewpoint, that their are X religions, all leading to the same path, but fundamentally, this is deviated to the teachings of Islam.

Also, IbnAbdulHakim has made a very good point, no one can blame another person for his disbelief - I do understand your point Woodrow, that muslims should draw people onto Islam by their actions, but even if you don't, do good deeds etc, its not a reason for people to disbelief the message - as your example is not editing the message.

A perfect summary of what I think. Frankly, this progessivist attitude has beguiled many of our brothers and sisters here.

[coddles76]

Although, aamirsaab has shown somewhat admirable tolerance, his network analogy is probably not representative of Islam. Allah, according to the Qur'an, does not accept any religion other than Islam - he has made Islam your religion to follow. So, I can't say you can call it a connection with Allah - if you follow say Hinduism. Yes, you will be making some sort of mental connection, but Islamically, it is seen as void, null, you would be worshipping a false God. Today, it is actually a common progressionists viewpoint, that their are X religions, all leading to the same path, but fundamentally, this is deviated to the teachings of Islam.

Also, IbnAbdulHakim has made a very good point, no one can blame another person for his disbelief - I do understand your point Woodrow, that muslims should draw people onto Islam by their actions, but even if you don't, do good deeds etc, its not a reason for people to disbelief the message - as your example is not editing the message.

Point accepted and well put though I just want to clarify one thing. Islam is NOT a religion, Its a way of life, Its a system, Its a law, its Submission to the one and only creator who created all we see, hear and touch. Its simple. submit to your creator and give thanks to him and he will open his mercy to you. Simple as that!!! You will know a man made law from a Divine law, Truth always crushes falsehood. Every other law can be quite clear cause it would have many contradictions. The Quran due to being the Word of Allah SWT has NO contradictions.

Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. (An-Nisa 4:82)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I am sure that both aamirsaab and Woodrow have a sincere belief that Islam is the only one and true way to Allah. They show this by striving to be tolerant towards others, and striving to change themselves, I see this in a positive light and it brings credit to their faith.

These are qualities that would draw me towards Muslims and Islam if I was searching for a faith.

In the spirit of praying to one God for a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Woah, I didn't know my posts could do that much!

Ok I did actually clarify the initial post regarding networks (after being asked to flesh it out by Grace seeker) in which I stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) I believe Islam is the best way to connect with Allah but others do not since they don't see it the same way as I do (and so use a different religion or w/e). Please refer to my second post on this thread for the full thing

In any event, the point I was making was God hears ALL and ALL can feel God - regardless of the religion one follows. Yes I believe Islam is the best way but others do not and so take another route - yet evidence (from what I have read and heard) indicates they still have some sort of connection with God (otherwise, they wouldn't be practicing their religion - as a psychologist I know that if we get positive feedback for doing somethng, we will repeat that action). From the theists I have spoken with and from what I have read, they clearly get some FEEDBACK from Allah [though as a muslim I believe this is Allah saying to them: dudes, you're doing a good act but you're on the wrong train!]

So er, I think that is as crystal clear as I can be on the matter. (5 posts on this thread!)

p.s; Please don't hurt me, I'm pakistani!
P.p.s; If I have said anything wrong or lead anyone astray, then may Allah forgive me.

[SixTen]

Point accepted and well put though I just want to clarify one thing. Islam is NOT a religion, Its a way of life, Its a system, Its a law, its Submission to the one and only creator who created all we see, hear and touch. Its simple. submit to your creator and give thanks to him and he will open his mercy to you. Simple as that!!! You will know a man made law from a Divine law, Truth always crushes falsehood. Every other law can be quite clear cause it would have many contradictions. The Quran due to being the Word of Allah SWT has NO contradictions.

Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. (An-Nisa 4:82)

What is wrong with calling Islam a religion? A religion can be a way of life too.

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." - Qur'an (Surah Maida)

Woah, I didn't know my posts could do that much!

Ok I did actually clarify the initial post regarding networks (after being asked to flesh it out by Grace seeker) in which I stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) I believe Islam is the best way to connect with Allah but others do not since they don't see it the same way as I do (and so use a different religion or w/e). Please refer to my second post on this thread for the full thing

In any event, the point I was making was God hears ALL and ALL can feel God - regardless of the religion one follows. Yes I believe Islam is the best way but others do not and so take another route - yet evidence (from what I have read and heard) indicates they still have some sort of connection with God (otherwise, they wouldn't be practicing their religion - as a psychologist I know that if we get positive feedback for doing somethng, we will repeat that action). From the theists I have spoken with and from what I have read, they clearly get some FEEDBACK from Allah [though as a muslim I believe this is Allah saying to them: dudes, you're doing a good act but you're on the wrong train!]

So er, I think that is as crystal clear as I can be on the matter. (5 posts on this thread!)

p.s; Please don't hurt me, I'm pakistani!
P.p.s; If I have said anything wrong or lead anyone astray, then may Allah forgive me.

Don't sweat it, no ones attacking you :). Though, I will have to criticise you again. You can't use the arguement, that because they practice the religion, they must have some connection with God. It is fallacious to assume, that idol worship - which people practice and enjoy and feel good about doing - will get Allah's blessings and make them feel good for doing it and hence encourage them to do it.

Islams viewpoint is simple - pleasure from other religions - is the pleasure that you gain from fullfilling your own desires. Not from, obeying Allah. This has to be clear, we can't say, Islam is the best way to communicate with God, you'd have to say islam is the only ACCEPTABLE method.

Anyway, this is derailing a bit, but to be short - Another religion is not any way, a path to connect with God. Also, I never stated God does not communicate with others - be it hindu's etc - as he shows signs to people all their lives. I was talking about, Islam's stance on the practice of other religions. Your post, had quite an effect on some people, you presented it as Islam being tolerant of you practicing other religions - which isn't the case at all (im sure you didn't mean it, but the post seemed to give that effect to some, hence I posted to make a correction).

[Uthman]

What is wrong with calling Islam a religion? A religion can be a way of life too.

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." - Qur'an (Surah Maida)

Well the actual Arabic word used in the Qur'an is 'deen' and here is the wiki article on the word deen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deen_(Arabic_term)

[Aurora]

Hey guys, recently I was wondering about this and am looking for your opinions ( or references from the Quran). Let me start, when I see.. lets say a Hindu who says they feel one with God. I am absolutely unsure about what to think here. Allah has specifically forbidden paganism and yet here who is claiming to have a strong connection with him. I often regard these people with a mix of amusement and annoyance. They sit down with lies and smile at us and say " to each his own religion". I wondered if they would really tell Allah... " O I thought I could choose whichever I wanted as long as I felt that "connection".

What am I supposed to think about Jews, Christians, Hindus etc who claim that they have a bond with Allah when their very beliefs and ways of life contradict his prescribed ones?

They don't see their beliefs and practices as contradictory to God's prescribed ones. You may believe that God has forbidden polytheism and paganism, but not everyone agrees with that. When that Hindu talked to you about being one with God he wasn't lying; at the very most you could say that he was mistaken, but you can't accuse him of dishonesty. He probably really did feel some sort of connection with what he perceived as God, even if their actually wasn't one.

[SixTen]

They don't see their beliefs and practices as contradictory to God's prescribed ones. You may believe that God has forbidden polytheism and paganism, but not everyone agrees with that. When that Hindu talked to you about being one with God he wasn't lying; at the very most you could say that he was mistaken, but you can't accuse him of dishonesty. He probably really did feel some sort of connection with what he perceived as God, even if their actually wasn't one.

I should note, people have different criterias to which results in polytheisms. For example, hindu's would claim they are monotheists, as would christians, but it is actually not seen as that from say, islam.

[SixTen]

Well the actual Arabic word used in the Qur'an is 'deen' and here is the wiki article on the word deen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deen_(Arabic_term)

The word religion wouldn't be used, unless it served a positive purpose.

[Uthman]

Hi SixTen,

The word religion wouldn't be used, unless it served a positive purpose.

So do you think the English word religion captures the full meaning of the Arabic word deen?

Regards

[AntiKarateKid]

They don't see their beliefs and practices as contradictory to God's prescribed ones. You may believe that God has forbidden polytheism and paganism, but not everyone agrees with that. When that Hindu talked to you about being one with God he wasn't lying; at the very most you could say that he was mistaken, but you can't accuse him of dishonesty. He probably really did feel some sort of connection with what he perceived as God, even if their actually wasn't one.

People can be wrong. I may feel that something is right one day then totally change my mind the next. A "feeling" cannot be used to justify ones religion unless one admits that belief should be based on whatever whims you have at that moment in time.

I " feel" a connection to Ganish one day then all of a sudden to Buddha another day. Faith is more than a fuzzy feeling.

[Whatsthepoint]

People can be wrong. I may feel that something is right one day then totally change my mind the next. A "feeling" cannot be used to justify ones religion unless one admits that belief should be based on whatever whims you have at that moment in time.

I " feel" a connection to Ganish one day then all of a sudden to Buddha another day. Faith is more than a fuzzy feeling.

Why do you believe Islam is the truth?

[SixTen]

Hi SixTen,



So do you think the English word religion captures the full meaning of the Arabic word deen?

Regards

I don't see the word religion to be offensive or wrong. Anyway, it is clear, what the context is, when stating religion regarding Islam - especially its fundamental principle, being set of practices centred around God.

[coddles76]

Well the actual Arabic word used in the Qur'an is 'deen' and here is the wiki article on the word deen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deen_(Arabic_term)

Thankyou Osman, You took the words right out of my mouth.
A way of life is more befitting for the Deen of Allah SWT.

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings Pygoscelis,



Why are you anti-religious? Instead, shouldn't you be anti-people-who-claim-to-follow-the-teachings-of-their-religion-but-in-actual-fact-don't? :D

When you don't believe in the God in question, that leaves the people who identify as being the religion to represent the religion as it currently exists.

I highly recommend Karen Armstrong's "History of God" which traces the very wide variety of Islams, Christianities, and Judaisms that have existed in the past couple of thousand years.

As a believer you may claim that your God gives you the correct understanding of your religion and therefore there is an independent (and only one proper) meaning of your religion, but to a non believer the belief of the believers IS the religion (as there is nothing else to point to).

[north_malaysian]

I thought It was the Prophets uncle, who explained to Mohammed that the "visitation" in the cave was Gabrial?

If I'm not mistaken Muhammad's uncles ie. Abu Lahab, abu Jahal and Abu Talib refused to be Muslims.

The one that told Muhammad about Gabriel was Waraqa Ibnu Naufal, which is Khadija's (Muhammad's wife) uncle.

Some scholars mentioned that Waraqa is a Hebrew...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazoraioi

[Fazl Ahmad]

Waraqa bin Naufal was a Christian hermit or monk, and he was the uncle of Khadijah (radhi Allahu anha). When Nabi (alaihi salatu wa salam) began to receive his revelations, Waraqa bin Naufal confessed that the same angel which used to visit sayidina Musa (alaihi salam) is now visiting him.

[Uthman]

I don't see the word religion to be offensive or wrong. Anyway, it is clear, what the context is, when stating religion regarding Islam - especially its fundamental principle, being set of practices centred around God.

Yeah, absolutely. I won't be so naive as to claim that Islam is not a religion. On the contrary, I would claim that Islam is a religion and more.

[AhlaamBella]

Yeah, absolutely. I won't be so naive as to claim that Islam is not a religion. On the contrary, I would claim that Islam is a religion and more.

A way of life :). A purpose. And constant inner peace :)

[Uthman]

Greetings,

When you don't believe in the God in question, that leaves the people who identify as being the religion to represent the religion as it currently exists.

I highly recommend Karen Armstrong's "History of God" which traces the very wide variety of Islams, Christianities, and Judaisms that have existed in the past couple of thousand years.

As a believer you may claim that your God gives you the correct understanding of your religion and therefore there is an independent (and only one proper) meaning of your religion, but to a non believer the belief of the believers IS the religion (as there is nothing else to point to).

I understand everything that you're saying, but there is also the religious texts to turn to. When a so-called beliver's beliefs is rooted in their religious text, that is how you know that they have the correct understanding. Now, of course, there is the matter of interpretation but as Muslims we have a simple answer to this. We must understand the religion in light of how it was practised by Prophet Muhammad (May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him). Furthermore, if one don't even understand the language it wa revealed in, then one shouldn't waste their time trying to interpret the Qur'an. The fact that there are so many translations and many of them differ significantly is evidence of this. There is just one Islam and the greatest scholars in history had minor differences of opinion over minor issues. In modern times you will find some Muslims supporting terrorism for example and attempting to support it with injunctions from the Qur'an. That isn't another Islam, that is an error on their part and an error that it doesn't take a genious to realise is false.

Regards

[Uthman]

Yeah, absolutely. I won't be so naive as to claim that Islam is not a religion. On the contrary, I would claim that Islam is a religion and more.

A way of life :). A purpose. And constant inner peace :)

Indeed! Let's remember that Islam even encompasses it's own legal system and governs every aspect of a Muslim's life from which side of the bed to sleep on to what to use to brush one's teeth. Everything!

[AhlaamBella]

Indeed! Let's remember that Islam even encompasses it's own legal system and governs every aspect of a Muslim's life from which side of the bed to sleep on to what to use to brush one's teeth. Everything!

There is so much to learn. That's the beauty of it :)

[Ansariyah]

My Science teacher called me once, and when I answered my fone, I coulnt believe it was my teacher. He asked me to make dua for his wife (who was diagnosed with lung cancer". He also said, pls pray for my wife, I believe that God will hear u. He's a Xtian.

[AhlaamBella]

My Science teacher called me once, and when I answered my fone, I coulnt believe it was my teacher. He asked me to make dua for his wife (who was diagnosed with lung cancer". He also said, pls pray for my wife, I believe that God will hear u. He's a Xtian.

SubhanAllah :)

[glo]

A way of life :). A purpose. And constant inner peace :)

But you have to understand that many non-Muslims will make very similar claims about their faith.
I doubt that there is an objective way of measuring the peace, fulfillment and meaning people gain from following their religion. All we have are their own experiences and perceptions.

Can you really claim that yours is better than theirs?
And on what grounds?

Salaam :)

[AhlaamBella]

Can you really claim that yours is better than theirs?
And on what grounds?

Salaam :)

I have been a christian. I have been a girl without any faith at all. And I am now a muslim. Yes I can say my inner peace now is better than anything I have felt before. I can see it from both sides :)

[YusufNoor]

But you have to understand that many non-Muslims will make very similar claims about their faith.
I doubt that there is an objective way of measuring the peace, fulfillment and meaning people gain from following their religion. All we have are their own experiences and perceptions.

Can you really claim that yours is better than theirs?
And on what grounds?

Salaam :)

on the grounds that our Din [way of life] comes directly from the Creator and Sustainer of all that Exists! NO other religion can make that claim, not even the other Abrahamic "traditions." Judaism owes more to Ezra than to Moses and Xtianity owes more to Paul than to Jesus.

so ours is REAL,as it comes from Maliki Yawmid Din and Allahu Samad! others have substituted the ways of men, so while they may feel that they have "A way of life . A purpose. And constant inner peace" they are merely deluded.

it's simple really, thanks for asking!

:w:

[glo]

I have been a christian. I have been a girl without any faith at all. And I am now a muslim. Yes I can say my inner peace now is better than anything I have felt before. I can see it from both sides :)

I can understand that ... but it is still anecdotal and your personal experience. It's meaningful to you, but not necessarily to anybody else ...

I have been a 'cultural Christian', an agnostic, a pagan, and now a committed Christian. And I can say that I am happiest, most content and at peace the way I am now.

I cannot compare my present situation with Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and all the other faiths I have not 'put to the test' - just as you cannot say with proof and certainty that other religions would not give you more fulfillment than Islam.
You may be convinced beyond any personal doubt that Islam in true ... (as I am convinced of my faith)
The Qu'ran (being the basis of the Islamic teaching) may tell you that Islam is true ... (as my Holy Book tells me about my faith)
Other believers may reinforce your beliefs and thinking ... (as fellow believers do with me)

... but by the end of the day all we have is our own perception, experience and conviction.
You and I are no different really.
We serve God with all our heart and to the best of our understanding.
Despite our differences in beliefs, we are in the same boat, sister! And dependent on God's grace and mercy, and subject to his will.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

We serve God with all our heart and to the best of our understanding.
Despite our differences in beliefs, we are in the same boat, sister! And dependent on God's grace and mercy, and subject to his will.

i disagree people with different beliefs are in completely different boats.

if you dont have the correct belief your not serving God correctly. Your serving other then God

if i told a people to do something and i told them "in order to do this you must do it THIS way" and i sent them a manual yet they make their own manual and try to achieve the goal in another way and say "they tried their best" will i be happy? NOPE i'd say "i gave you everything you needed but you rejected it"....

[glo]

i disagree people with different beliefs are in completely different boats.

if you dont have the correct belief your not serving God correctly. Your serving other then God

if i told a people to do something and i told them "in order to do this you must do it THIS way" and i sent them a manual yet they make their own manual and try to achieve the goal in another way and say "they tried their best" will i be happy? NOPE i'd say "i gave you everything you needed but you rejected it"....

You misunderstood me, brother.
I did not mean to imply that all faiths are the same.
By 'being in the same boat' I meant that RoseGold and I both follow our personal conviction, we both love and serve God, and we both are at his mercy.

That is not to say that we are both right in God's eyes, and that he won't judge us (he will!).
Indeed one of us may end up saying those very words on the day of judgement: "I tried my best", to be told by God "I gave you everything you needed but you rejected it" ... :(

May God be merciful with us all.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ i apologise if i misunderstood you

also loving God is easy to say, but to feel it and live by it is another thing... entirely another thing.


i wont ever claim to love God (as much as i wish i could), i can only hope he loves me through his mercy...

have you seen anyone as crazy about God as they are with their beautiful newly wed partner?... (always thinking about them, spending hours in prayer with them, always mentioning them in every gathering...doing only things they love, always trying to please them..) becoz i actually hav.... and im not at that stage yet...

[AhlaamBella]

^ i apologise if i misunderstood you

also loving God is easy to say, but to feel it and live by it is another thing... entirely another thing.


i wont ever claim to love God (as much as i wish i could), i can only hope he loves me through his mercy...

have you seen anyone as crazy about God as they are with their beautiful newly wed partner?... (always thinking about them, spending hours in prayer with them, always mentioning them in every gathering...doing only things they love, always trying to please them..) becoz i actually hav.... and im not at that stage yet...

Reminded me of an article I read recently : The Greatest Love of All

I agree with Glo to a certain extent about being in the same boat. We've been in different faiths. Yet, I wouldn't class myself as the same as a Christian :)

[glo]

I agree with Glo to a certain extent about being in the same boat. We've been in different faiths. Yet, I wouldn't class myself as the same as a Christian :)

I am glad you took my post in the way it was intended, Rose. :)
In some ways our faiths clearly differ - yet in others there are strong similarities.

There is much in Islam I deeply respect and admire ... and yet for the things that set our faiths apart I cannot class myself a Muslim.

Salaam :)

[AhlaamBella]

I am glad you took my post in the way it was intended, Rose. :)

No problem :)

There is much in Islam I deeply respect and admire ... and yet for the things that set our faiths apart I cannot class myself a Muslim.

I always ask this, what exactly do you disagree with? :)

[Grace Seeker]

But you have to understand that many non-Muslims will make very similar claims about their faith.
I doubt that there is an objective way of measuring the peace, fulfillment and meaning people gain from following their religion. All we have are their own experiences and perceptions.

Can you really claim that yours is better than theirs?
And on what grounds?

Salaam :)

I have been a christian. I have been a girl without any faith at all. And I am now a muslim. Yes I can say my inner peace now is better than anything I have felt before. I can see it from both sides :)

But again glo's point remains. (I think you two made that connection above.) There are folks whose life journey follows other tracks. Some lead into Islam. Some out of Islam. Some through Islam to some other faith. And likewise with Christianity and I suspect other religions. And nearly all of these people that I come in contact with will at some point reflect on their lack of peace at where they were in their earlier life and the peace they found later. It might lead someone like Pygoscelis to simply conclude that it isn't about a faith journey as much as it is about maturity. And were it not for the fact that I also see other people move from peace to anxiety over time, even I might agree with him.

I think each journey is so individual it is hard to draw conclusions from one's own life about what others are likely to experience on their own. I am sad that you didn't find peace as a Christian, but am glad you have found peace as a Muslim. I'm even happier that Glo has found her peace in Christ, but that in no way makes your peace less than what it is for you and others who have found the same peace you have in Islam. I just suggest that for those with eyes and ears to seek it there, it is every bit as much in Christianity as well.

[Grace Seeker]

on the grounds that our Din [way of life] comes directly from the Creator and Sustainer of all that Exists! NO other religion can make that claim, not even the other Abrahamic "traditions." Judaism owes more to Ezra than to Moses and Xtianity owes more to Paul than to Jesus.

so ours is REAL,as it comes from Maliki Yawmid Din and Allahu Samad! others have substituted the ways of men, so while they may feel that they have "A way of life . A purpose. And constant inner peace" they are merely deluded.

it's simple really, thanks for asking!

:w:

But our peace doesn't come from following Paul or even Jesus. Even though as disciples we are called to participate in a journey of following Christ, our peace doesn't come from following at all. Our peace comes from living in the presence of God, a presence we experience because of the reality of the Holy Spirit living within us.

Again, not to say that you don't know real peace. But please don't denigrate ours just because you don't know it as we do.

[AhlaamBella]

I think each journey is so individual it is hard to draw conclusions from one's own life about what others are likely to experience on their own. .

I speak for every Muslim revert/convert. They understand what I mean. You, I'm afraid to say, haven't got a clue.

[MustafaMc]

That is not to say that we are both right in God's eyes, and that he won't judge us (he will!).
Indeed one of us may end up saying those very words on the day of judgement: "I tried my best", to be told by God "I gave you everything you needed but you rejected it" ... :(

Yes, our fundamental beliefs are quite different and we can't both be right. This side of Judgment Day neither of us can KNOW that we are right. Personally, I believe to my innermost core that Islam is the Straight Way that leads to Paradise, just as I am certain that you believe in your inner most being that Christianity is the only means by which man can become reconciled with God. I am certain that you are at least as sincere in your faith as I am in mine.

May God be merciful with us all.

Seeing as how I once was a Christian and how none of my blood-family is a Muslim, I can't help but hope that Allah will be merciful to the sincere adherents of other religions who don't attack my faith.

[Grace Seeker]

loving God is easy to say, but to feel it and live by it is another thing... entirely another thing.

In many ways this is very true. Especially when it is just words. But...

i wont ever claim to love God (as much as i wish i could), i can only hope he loves me through his mercy...

...but, love is not just something we say. It is not just an emotion we feel. Love is also something we choose. We can choose to act loving toward people, toward God. And there is nothing wrong with saying that we have chosen to love God. That choice leads us to all sorts of actions such as works of charity, acts of piety and devotion, practices of obedience, living in peace with othes (both as nations and as individuals). We may not be perfect in all that we do, but if we choose God we will nontheless act more loving in these regards with one another and that will be an important way to express love towards God.

have you seen anyone as crazy about God as they are with their beautiful newly wed partner?... (always thinking about them, spending hours in prayer with them, always mentioning them in every gathering...doing only things they love, always trying to please them..) becoz i actually hav.... and im not at that stage yet...

Yeah, I have seen that too. It's a beautiful thing. If you want to get there, may I encourage you to do what those who practice it with their human beloveds do -- keep your eyes focused on the one you love and don't look around at other things or people to be the source of pleasure or joy in your life. Let God be your all-sufficiency. (Don't know if that's one of the 99 names of Allah found in the Qur'an, but it certainly describes the God revealed in both the Bible and the Qur'an, so I suspect it still fits.)

[Grace Seeker]

I speak for every Muslim revert/convert. They understand what I mean. You, I'm afraid to say, haven't got a clue.

I'm sure every revert/convert has an experience similar to yours. I wasn't disputing that. In fact I wasn't disputing anything. I'm just making some observtions, among them that each person's journey is their personal journey. For all the similarities two journeys might be, because they are the journeys of individual people, they are still unique to that person and that person alone.

You're journey was one that led to peace in Islam. You started as a Christian, but did not find that it spoke to you. Rather Islam did, and at the end of that journey came a sense of peace in knowing that you were where God had lead you, called you, and wanted you. You now felt that you were right with God in a way that you had not been before in your life. Praise God!! As I said above. I am glad you found peace in Islam. I'm always glad when people find peace in their lives.

But don't you notice that there are also persons who leave Islam to become something else. There are people for whom Islam was NOT a source of peace in their lives. They had to find it elsewhere.

You say that every convert/revert to Islam understands what you mean by this inner peace which is better than anything you ever felt before. I don't doubt that. But I would ask you to reconsider your assertion that I haven't got a clue. For you see every convert to Christianity claims that very same experience. That is what I mean by saying "I think each journey is so individual it is hard to draw conclusions from one's own life about what others are likely to experience on their own."

You found peace down one path, that doesn't mean that all others will find it on that same path and that those same others cannot find it taking a different way. While all seek peace, the search for peace is very much something that individuals find in different places and for different reasons. But when they find that peace, it is for each of them the greatest experience of their lives. That sense of peace is something we have in very much in common.

[AhlaamBella]

As I said before. You. Have. Not. Got. A. Clue. Ok? I'm saying it again. Anyone who has left Islam have left because their culture has dominated their lives and the line of distinction between culture and religion has become blurred. But, isn't Islam also the fastest growing religion? muslims are reverting everyday. You consider that.

You know I feel so sorry for you. Muslims will understand why I'm saying this. The energy and love that fills you is nothing you will ever be able to imagine until you experience it. My mother is a revert. she feels the same. My uncle Idrees is a revert. He feels the same. My best friend is a revert. she feels the same. my aunty Aisha is a revert she feels the same. Along with the entire muslim ummah... WE ALL FEEL THE SAME.

But you refuse to see that. InshAllah, Allah will remove the blindfold and the seal on your heart so you can feel this amazing love and happiness.

[Keltoi]

As I said before. You. Have. Not. Got. A. Clue. Ok? I'm saying it again. Anyone who has left Islam have left because their culture has dominated their lives and the line of distinction between culture and religion has become blurred. But, isn't Islam also the fastest growing religion? muslims are reverting everyday. You consider that.

You know I feel so sorry for you. Muslims will understand why I'm saying this. The energy and love that fills you is nothing you will ever be able to imagine until you experience it. My mother is a revert. she feels the same. My uncle Idrees is a revert. He feels the same. My best friend is a revert. she feels the same. my aunty Aisha is a revert she feels the same. Along with the entire muslim ummah... WE ALL FEEL THE SAME.

But you refuse to see that. InshAllah, Allah will remove the blindfold and the seal on your heart so you can feel this amazing love and happiness.

You aren't describing any emotion that Christians themselves do not experience. We often call it the "the peace that surpasses all understanding." My life with Christ has given that to me. Islam has given it to you. All people of sincere faith have a "clue".

[AhlaamBella]

You aren't describing any emotion that Christians themselves do not experience. We often call it the "the peace that surpasses all understanding." My life with Christ has given that to me. Islam has given it to you. All people of sincere faith have a "clue".

lol no my brother. It is not the same. Trust me :)

[AntiKarateKid]

lol no my brother. It is not the same. Trust me :)

I also firmly believe that the feeling I get is not like the feeling that a Buddhist gets when he meditates on Buddha or w/e.

Also, that "fuzzy feeling" is very fickle for people. One minute you have it and suddenly when a question pops up against it, you start to think and lose that feeling.

This "clue" is sustainable and more powerful for true believers, fleeting for "non believers" who reflect, and "sustainable" for ignorant believers who don't reflect

[AhlaamBella]

I also firmly believe that the feeling I get is not like the feeling that a Buddhist gets when he meditates on Buddha or w/e.

Also, that "fuzzy feeling" is very fickle for people. One minute you have it and suddenly when a question pops up against it, you start to think and lose that feeling.

This "clue" is sustainable and more powerful for true believers, fleeting for "non believers" who reflect, and "sustainable" for ignorant believers who don't reflect

Thank you brother :) Finally someone who understands! lol :D

[Keltoi]

lol no my brother. It is not the same. Trust me :)

No, I'm afraid I can't trust you in this regard. Personally, my experience may be more profound than yours. There is no way to measure such a concept.

[AntiKarateKid]

No, I'm afraid I can't trust you in this regard. Personally, my experience may be more profound than yours. There is no way to measure such a concept.

And may we let God decide in the end who was right and wrong and if, God forbid, that this progressivist attitude among us is true.

[Gator]

AKK and RG, you are very confident in your exact knowledge of what everyone feels.

So, for me to better understand as a non-believer, is this sustained feeling greater than the peak of enjoyment I receive when my favorite football team scores a last second touchdown to win. If it is greater please, let me know by what multiple (2.8x, 5x, 1.2 times, etc.).

Thanks.

[AhlaamBella]

You are an Atheist. There's no point trying to comprehend the feeling of God/Allah being happy with you, to have guided you. It's so amazing.

[Gator]

Actually, atheism has given me an inner peace that is like 10x your inner peace.

[AhlaamBella]

Actually, atheism has given me an inner peace that is like 10x your inner peace.

:giggling: What about when you die bro? What do you think is going to happen then? :blind:

[AntiKarateKid]

AKK and RG, you are very confident in your exact knowledge of what everyone feels.

So, for me to better understand as a non-believer, is this sustained feeling greater than the peak of enjoyment I receive when my favorite football team scores a last second touchdown to win. If it is greater please, let me know by what multiple (2.8x, 5x, 1.2 times, etc.).

Thanks.

It's hard to tell the tone of people on this forum but w/e :D. God has guaranteed me happiness in religion but not football. So it can be agreed that the happiness with religion will be greater.

Since this leaves football in an ambiguous position. We can at least say that joy of religion> joy of football

At least this is how it should be if you realize the truth of God and follow him.

Spiritual joy is greater and more lasting than a goal in football.

[AntiKarateKid]

Actually, atheism has given me an inner peace that is like 10x your inner peace.

I'll let God decide who's inner peace is true and who is fooling themselves. While your praising the joy of nothing please acquaint yourself with the local drunks who also feel good about nothing.

[KAding]

If it is any consolation, I don't want 'respect'. I just want tolerance!

Tolerance is all that is needed for peaceful coexistence. Different social groups simply need to give each other space to live their own life's.

[AntiKarateKid]

If it is any consolation, I don't want 'respect'. I just want tolerance!

Tolerance is all that is needed for peaceful coexistence. Different social groups simply need to give each other space to live their own life's.

Muslims will not and should not tolerate falsehood. Though this doesn't mean go out and smash the nearest idol near you, this means that we will never give up promotion the truth. You as an atheist don't believe this and see religions as all the same and false. We on the other hand see the other religions as deviations from what was given int he first place. Thus do we struggle against falsehood in ways such has scholarly refutations of false beliefs. Like the Prophet (pbuh) said, the ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr.


God does sees other religions as deviations and so do we. Allah asked us o promote truth and so we shall.

They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse. Quran 61:08

[Grace Seeker]

lol no my brother. It is not the same. Trust me :)

How can I trust you on this? You say you were once a Christian. But as Muslim think that no one who is a true Muslim would ever leave Islam, so I can't imagine anyone that had every had a personal relationship with Christ would walk away from it. You may have been a "member" of some Christian church, even had warm "fuzzy feelings" as AKK describes them. But faith in Christ and the peace that comes from giving one's life over to him is soooo much more. I believe if you had really known that, you would never have looked for or been satisfied with the type of peace you find elsewhere. I don't think you are even in a position to evaluate, let alone pass judgment on, whether or not I have a clue. That you think you can answers the question of this thread regarding Muslim attitudes twoard Kuffars -- they are narcissistic.


And here is another part of why I say that:

Muslims will not and should not tolerate falsehood.

The ego of the narcissist is so big that he thinks it is all about him. It isn't.

Consider that God himself tolerates falsehood. Before you jump down my throat, look at the world. There is much falsehood. God has the power to change it all in the blink of an eye, but he doesn't. Rather, God allows human free will to act. To act even in destructive, disruptive, and dispicable ways. Why? Why when if he has the power and is intolerable of such falsehoods does he still allow it to exist? I suggest that there are only two answers. Either (a) God is actually intolerant of these existing falsehood, but doesn't have the power to do anything about it, or (b) God has the power, but is willing to tolerate them, at least for a time, until such time that he brings an end to human history as we know it and set all things right once again. Since I don't believe God to be impotent, I tend to think that God is therefore tolerant.

Tolerance is different than accepting. God doesn't accept the deviations of falsehood and unrighteousness that exist in the world. But he does tolerate them, showing grace toward them, at least long enough so that he might work to effect a change in them and return them to truth and righteousness. One must have a degree of tolerance, if one is to hope to make a change in that which is false and convert it to that which is true. I think that Muhammad showed considerable tolerance on many occassion (though of course not all), today's Muslim would be wise to learn and emulate that aspect of the prophet (pbuh).

[AhlaamBella]

You think I went to Islam without fully experiencing Christianity. Am I correct? I've studied christianity. I'm totally unsatisfied with it. Too many contradictions. Too many unanswered questions. Don't underestimate me because of my age :)

[Grace Seeker]

You think I went to Islam without fully experiencing Christianity. Am I correct? I've studied christianity. I'm totally unsatisfied with it. Too many contradictions. Too many unanswered questions. Don't underestimate me because of my age :)

I haven't any idea of your age. But studying Christianity is not the same thing as experiencing Christ. They are radically different concepts.

As for unanswered questions and contradictions, well I see some of those things as well. But I have learned to live with a certain level of ambiguity that perhaps you cannot. And that is alright. No one says you have to accept ambiguity or that you should adopt a faith that doesn't answer all of your questions.

I too continue to search for answers to some questions myself. But I know Jesus. I put my trust in him personally, not my knowledge of him. For me, that has made all the difference.

[AhlaamBella]

You will not listen to me. here. Knock yourself out :)

[Aurora]

As I said before. You. Have. Not. Got. A. Clue. Ok? I'm saying it again. Anyone who has left Islam have left because their culture has dominated their lives and the line of distinction between culture and religion has become blurred. But, isn't Islam also the fastest growing religion? muslims are reverting everyday. You consider that.

My crisis of faith had nothing to do with culture. I just wasn't convinced by Islam anymore. There wasn't any evidence or what I felt to be compelling argument for.

You know I feel so sorry for you. Muslims will understand why I'm saying this. The energy and love that fills you is nothing you will ever be able to imagine until you experience it. My mother is a revert. she feels the same. My uncle Idrees is a revert. He feels the same. My best friend is a revert. she feels the same. my aunty Aisha is a revert she feels the same. Along with the entire muslim ummah... WE ALL FEEL THE SAME.

Feelings can fade.

But you refuse to see that. InshAllah, Allah will remove the blindfold and the seal on your heart so you can feel this amazing love and happiness.

I've never quite understood why Allah would put seals on the hearts of people or why He would guide some and not others.

[MustafaMc]

You think I went to Islam without fully experiencing Christianity. Am I correct?

Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?

[Keltoi]

Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?

What do you say when a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith?

[AntiKarateKid]

How can I trust you on this? You say you were once a Christian. But as Muslim think that no one who is a true Muslim would ever leave Islam, so I can't imagine anyone that had every had a personal relationship with Christ would walk away from it. You may have been a "member" of some Christian church, even had warm "fuzzy feelings" as AKK describes them. But faith in Christ and the peace that comes from giving one's life over to him is soooo much more. I believe if you had really known that, you would never have looked for or been satisfied with the type of peace you find elsewhere. I don't think you are even in a position to evaluate, let alone pass judgment on, whether or not I have a clue. That you think you can answers the question of this thread regarding Muslim attitudes twoard Kuffars -- they are narcissistic.


And here is another part of why I say that:

The ego of the narcissist is so big that he thinks it is all about him. It isn't.

Consider that God himself tolerates falsehood. Before you jump down my throat, look at the world. There is much falsehood. God has the power to change it all in the blink of an eye, but he doesn't. Rather, God allows human free will to act. To act even in destructive, disruptive, and dispicable ways. Why? Why when if he has the power and is intolerable of such falsehoods does he still allow it to exist? I suggest that there are only two answers. Either (a) God is actually intolerant of these existing falsehood, but doesn't have the power to do anything about it, or (b) God has the power, but is willing to tolerate them, at least for a time, until such time that he brings an end to human history as we know it and set all things right once again. Since I don't believe God to be impotent, I tend to think that God is therefore tolerant.

Tolerance is different than accepting. God doesn't accept the deviations of falsehood and unrighteousness that exist in the world. But he does tolerate them, showing grace toward them, at least long enough so that he might work to effect a change in them and return them to truth and righteousness. One must have a degree of tolerance, if one is to hope to make a change in that which is false and convert it to that which is true. I think that Muhammad showed considerable tolerance on many occassion (though of course not all), today's Muslim would be wise to learn and emulate that aspect of the prophet (pbuh).

Graceseeker, before throwing around words such as tolerate it would help to know what it actually means.:thumbs_up

Tolerate: To allow (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) to exist or occur without interference

1. God has said that he will eliminate the other religions sooner or later because they are deviant and falsehood is bound to perish so that scratches the " God allows them to exist" line of thought.

2. God has certainly not let the other religions flourish without interference and the Prophets and punishments of the people of old are testament to that

You assume that them not blinking out of existence and generally existing to this day is a sign of tolerance. I disagree, though I cant think of a word for it right now, it just doesnt match up to the definition of tolerance. There is probably a better word out there:rollseyes.

I fail to see how it is narcissistic to hold my religion, which I believe to be true above all others. If you knew for a fact that religion A was true and God given you would feel that it would be superior to every other false one. hence I feel that it is superior. I have not been convinced by other religions and so havent you i guess but it is not narcissistic to hold that God's given religion is superior to the deviant ones out there.

P.s: My posts today have been kinda overzealous and blunt and am sorry for any insults I have made. Sometimes you get too into this stuff:peace:

[AntiKarateKid]

My crisis of faith had nothing to do with culture. I just wasn't convinced by Islam anymore. There wasn't any evidence or what I felt to be compelling argument for.


Feelings can fade.

I've never quite understood why Allah would put seals on the hearts of people or why He would guide some and not others.

1. For the evidence, you should look harder, there are mountains.
2. Your seals on people's hearts question has been discussed many many times by scholars who have given extensive answers to this.
3. feelings can certainly fade, true conviction will NEVER fade
Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse. 8:23

It seems to me that you had a couple of questions and did not properly look for the answers. Now ask yourself, if these answers were so plainly visible, why didn't you find them? Islam lacked nothing, your seriousness in finding the truth is what was lacking.

here you go, the "seal" part I think you were referring to.

http://discovering-islam.blogspot.co...of-kuffar.html

that took me less than a minute to find.


It is a common mistake of the kuffar to think that just because they cannot answer a question, there is no answer.

Go ask an imam your questions. If your questions are so faith shattering, they will not have an answer. If you don't, you are not serious and are fooling yourself.

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?

She is the one who said that she didn't experience peace within Christianity. Since that peace is part and parcel of the Christian experience then it would be true for her that she didn't have the full Christian experience. I can't say for others, and I am sorry if it sounded like I was.

I'll also be interested in your answer to Keltoi's question.

[AntiKarateKid]

What do you say when a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith?

In the end, our feelings and opinions hinge on the question of validity. When we meet God we can see who in fact was wrong and who's feelings were misguided.

[MustafaMc]

What do you say when a Muslim leaves Islam for another faith?

I have never known one, but I would like to know what he found in the other faith that he was missing in Islam. If he became a Christian, I would also want to know if he ever REALLY believed that it was disbelief in the Oneness of Allah to say that Jesus was the Son of God and then why he now believed that Jesus was at the same time Son of God and God in the flesh.

[Aurora]

1. For the evidence, you should look harder, there are mountains.

I've looked and I haven't found anything to convince me. If there really is evidence why has God made it so hard for me to find?

2. Your seals on people's hearts question has been discussed many many times by scholars who have given extensive answers to this.
3. feelings can certainly fade, true conviction will NEVER fade
Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse. 8:23

I don't see why conviction in a certain belief cannot fade either. When I was younger I believed in Islam with certainty. I thought it was an amazing religion and I was happy to be raised Muslim in an Islamic household. I never thought I would ever lose faith, but it happened.

It seems to me that you had a couple of questions and did not properly look for the answers. Now ask yourself, if these answers were so plainly visible, why didn't you find them? Islam lacked nothing, your seriousness in finding the truth is what was lacking.

If I had a question that troubled me I would normally go to Islamonline or Islam-qa to get my answers, and most of the time I got a satisfactory answer. I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want to burn in hell for the rest of eternity.

here you go, the "seal" part I think you were referring to.

http://discovering-islam.blogspot.co...of-kuffar.html

that took me less than a minute to find.

So only those kafirs that Allah knows will never accept Islam anyway have their hearts sealed? If that is the case then Allah getting involved and sealing their hearts serves no purpose. It is a completely pointless exercise.

As far as I'm aware Zakir Naik isn't an Islamic scholar, so do you know of any scholars that agree with his view?

It is a common mistake of the kuffar to think that just because they cannot answer a question, there is no answer.

Go ask an imam your questions. If your questions are so faith shattering, they will not have an answer. If you don't, you are not serious and are fooling yourself.

Not having a satisfactory answer to a question about Islam is not the main reason I'm not a Muslim. It is simply the lack of evidence or convincing argument for the existence of the Islamic God that makes me incapable of believing. Nothing that I've read that has been written by scholars in support of God is at all convincing.

[MustafaMc]

It is simply the lack of evidence or convincing argument for the existence of the Islamic God that makes me incapable of believing. Nothing that I've read that has been written by scholars in support of God is at all convincing.

Since you don't believe in Allah, do you believe in another Deity?

I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want to burn in hell for the rest of eternity.

If you don't believe in Allah, why are you concerned about burning in Hell for eternity? I know some who believe in God, but not in life after death; however, you are the first I have known that believe the reverse. Do you care to explain what you believe?

[Keltoi]

I have never known one, but I would like to know what he found in the other faith that he was missing in Islam. If he became a Christian, I would also want to know if he ever REALLY believed that it was disbelief in the Oneness of Allah to say that Jesus was the Son of God and then why he now believed that Jesus was at the same time Son of God and God in the flesh.

So in essence you would be raising doubt as to whether this person ever "really" believed in what the Qu'ran says. Why is that not just as much of a "cop out" as you accused Christians of making?

[MustafaMc]

So in essence you would be raising doubt as to whether this person ever "really" believed in what the Qu'ran says. Why is that not just as much of a "cop out" as you accused Christians of making?

I would ask the question and then I would listen to his answer and then his explanation for the change in his faith. I would want to know why he now believed that a man was God in the flesh when it is diametrically opposed to the Islamic faith. I would not presume to know the answer or his reasons for changing as Christians have presumed of me.

I was a Christian and I believed what the Baptist (upbringing) and Church of Christ (college) church taught me, including that Jesus (as) was the Son of God (astighfir'Allah) and that he died on the cross for my sins. Yes, I had accepted him as my Savior and his cleansing blood as the only expiation for my sins. I read the Qur'an and my faith changed over Christmas break 1981. I rejected the faith of my upbringing and I accepted a new one. I am still striving to become one who submits his will to that of Allah and I pray that I die not, but as a Muslim.

[KAding]

Yes, that is the cop-out that Christians use when one leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim. They say something to the effect of, "Oh, he never REALLY accepted Jesus as his saviour," or "He never REALLY had a personal relationship with God through Jesus." I know because it has been said to me often enough! Quite convenient, don't you think?

Yes, you hear it on this forum all the time. Very "convenient" indeed ;).

IMHO, no one size fits all! That different people convert in different directions should be an indication of that.

In fact, this "one size fits all" attitude scares me a bit to be honest, because people who believe that are often the same as those who are incapable of tolerating these different choices.

[Grace Seeker]

I think one hears that for several reasons. Some valid, some not so much.

First, Baptist theology includes a belief in eternal security. That is that they believe once saved, always saved. So, when they see a person who they think of as a Christian who is fallen into sin or walks away from their faith (not just those who convert to something else, but the larger numnber that simply drop out from practicing their faith) they refuse to recognize them as backslidden Christians, but say that they must not have been true believers or genuine Christians to begin with.

Though I don't believe in eternal secuity, and recognize that there are indeed backslidden Christians, sometimes I do wonder what an individual's faith was based on. When I hear people saying that they were once a Christian, but got tired of watching so many hypocrites in the church. (Something that can be a genuine problem.) And so they walk away because of that. It does make me wonder if they had a relationship with Jesus or not. Because I can't understand how they would deny their own relationship with him based on the failings of others. For me those two ideas are incongruous.

Likewise, I hear people who tell me that they were raised in the Christian Church, and feel themselves quite knowledgable about it, but have rejected it because they can't believe in a god who would XYZ. And I'm wondering where they ever learned that God was that type of god, for it is completely foreign to my understanding of the god of Christianity. I wouldn't believe in that sort of god either. I don't blame them for rejecting it, but I can hardly say that what they are rejecting is the true God of Christiantiy, but something else.

And then there are those who from all that I can tell truly did believe, accept the faith, practice it, and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I had a friend in high school who I thought this described. And then one day Karen suddenly became a different person. Years later, after college, she invited me to her wedding, and I attended, but I hardly recognized here anymore. I'm not going to say that she never was a Christian, but by this time in her life she had pretty much turned her back on all that she had held sacred before. Even in the exchange of vows at her wedding it was clear that she was rejecting the faith she had formerly held. I continued to wish her joy and happiness, which she seemed to have found with her husband. But for me the occassion was painful, because I could tell she was no longer the friend I had once known.

So, I admit that it happens. But I confess I do not understand it. I don't know how anyone could walk away from the peace and happiness that I know can be found in Jesus Christ. For Jesus gives meaning to life in ways I have never heard anyone talk about outside of the Christian faith. Not that others don't find any meaning in life, but that what Christ offers is so sublime that the peace offered with it is truly surpassing all understanding unless you have experienced it yourself.

Maybe Rose is right that I don't have a clue, for it seems incomprehensible to me that one would voluntarily turn one's back on that. But I know that people do. And it is their free choice. But I hurt for each of them as I do my friend who gave up the joy I know she once had. I wonder if Karen and all the others who turn away from Christ, even in the midst of genuine faith, have somehow missed out on tapping into the pure joy that can be found in knowing Christ, for I personally cannot conceive of ever choosing to abandon it. Still, I pray that whatever other joy and peace they find will be fulfilling for them, even if I cannot imagine how it would be more or better than what they had experienced before.

[glo]

So, I admit that it happens. But I confess I do not understand it. I don't know how anyone could walk away from the peace and happiness that I know can be found in Jesus Christ. For Jesus gives meaning to life in ways I have never heard anyone talk about outside of the Christian faith. Not that others don't find any meaning in life, but that what Christ offers is so sublime that the peace offered with it is truly surpassing all understanding unless you have experienced it yourself.

Maybe Rose is right that I don't have a clue, for it seems incomprehensible to me that one would voluntarily turn one's back on that. But I know that people do. And it is their free choice. But I hurt for each of them as I do my friend who gave up the joy I know she once had. I wonder if Karen and all the others who turn away from Christ, even in the midst of genuine faith, have somehow missed out on tapping into the pure joy that can be found in knowing Christ, for I personally cannot conceive of ever choosing to abandon it. Still, I pray that whatever other joy and peace they find will be fulfilling for them, even if I cannot imagine how it would be more or better than what they had experienced before.

Those are truly moving words, Grace Seeker.
It echoes very much how I feel too ... but I couldn't have put it any better myself.

Peace to you :)

[AntiKarateKid]

I've looked and I haven't found anything to convince me. If there really is evidence why has God made it so hard for me to find?


I don't see why conviction in a certain belief cannot fade either. When I was younger I believed in Islam with certainty. I thought it was an amazing religion and I was happy to be raised Muslim in an Islamic household. I never thought I would ever lose faith, but it happened.


If I had a question that troubled me I would normally go to Islamonline or Islam-qa to get my answers, and most of the time I got a satisfactory answer. I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want 1to burn in hell for the rest of eternity.


So only those kafirs that Allah knows will never accept Islam anyway have their hearts sealed? If that is the case then Allah getting involved and sealing their hearts serves no purpose. It is a completely pointless exercise.

As far as I'm aware Zakir Naik isn't an Islamic scholar, so do you know of any scholars that agree with his view?


Not having a satisfactory answer to a question about Islam is not the main reason I'm not a Muslim. It is simply the lack of evidence or convincing argument for the existence of the Islamic God that makes me incapable of believing. Nothing that I've read that has been written by scholars in support of God is at all convincing.

1. It is pointless in your mind. The act of sealing is a punishment for them. Hell is not Allah's only form of punishment.
2. As far I I know, he isnt a lone speaker, I am certain that there are scholars assisting in the formation of these responses.
3. Again, you give a blanket statement taht it doesnt convince you. Let me tell you this, if you can't find anything convincing in Islam, or cant think of a reason, you were an improper Muslim in the first place. A true Muslim would be able to support his beliefs but you look like you examined that "fuzz feeling" inside of you and found "Islam wanting" yet the sad truth is that your understanding if Islam was found wanting.


Juvenile questions such as " why was a seal put upon them" have been thoroughly answered by many people. I brought up one asnwer and you cannot point out any specific thing in any scholar's response taht you find wrong.

By the way, good job leaving Islam without taking your questions to a scholar in person and instead to site on the internet. You are truly looking arent you? :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

[AntiKarateKid]

Here we go. You say you don't understand what the Quran is saying. Here is an excellent article I have found WITH PROOFS from the Quran explaining the details of this.

http://www.----------------/articles/g...em/destiny.htm

In the end you have isolated one verse from the Quran without considering its relationship with other verses on the subject. A poor effort on your part and a common tactic among disbelievers.:cry:

[Grace Seeker]

AKK, how is what you are saying to Aurora any different than saying that she was never a true Muslim to begin with?

[AhlaamBella]

AKK, how is what you are saying to Aurora any different than saying that she was never a true Muslim to begin with?

Actually, he is saying she has missed a few pointers :)

[Grace Seeker]

Actually, he is saying she has missed a few pointers :)

Ah. Wonder if that could ever be true of those who convert/revert from Christianity to Islam?

[AhlaamBella]

Ah. Wonder if that could ever be true of those who convert/revert from Christianity to Islam?

Maybe, maybe not :) but someone who has reverted to Islam has been totally convinced of it's truth with factual evidence rather than a peaceful experience :)

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe, maybe not :) but someone who has reverted to Islam has been totally convinced of it's truth with factual evidence rather than a peaceful experience :)

And I wonder if those who convert to Christianity from Islam might similary see themselves as totally convinced of its truth with factual evidence as well?

(Not that I am asking you to agree that such a conversion was indeed based on factual evidence, but that you might agree that the convert would see it that way.)

[AhlaamBella]

And I wonder if those who convert to Christianity from Islam might similary see themselves as totally convinced of its truth with factual evidence as well?

(Not that I am asking you to agree that such a conversion was indeed based on factual evidence, but that you might agree that the convert would see it that way.)

Maybe. Except the Qur'an has been found to be more of a science book than the Bible :) The Qur'an holds proof which the Bible lacks.

[MustafaMc]

Maybe, maybe not :) but someone who has reverted to Islam has been totally convinced of it's truth with factual evidence rather than a peaceful experience :)

Yes, my perception is that the Christian experience is much more emotional and the Muslim one is more intellectual. Islam is much more rational and logical than is Christianity.

[AhlaamBella]

Yes, my perception is that the Christian experience is much more emotional and the Muslim one is more intellectual. Islam is much more rational and logical than is Christianity.

Exactly, as a christian any questions are usually answered with "faith". In Islam you have an actual answer which in turn increases your faith :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Maybe. Except the Qur'an has been found to be more of a science book than the Bible :)

By Muslims.

It's worth remembering that.

Peace

[AhlaamBella]

Greetings,


By Muslims.

It's worth remembering that.

Peace

Actually, by many other people as well :) Scientists have challenged it's verses yet found them correct :)

[Uthman]

Greetings,

Maybe. Except the Qur'an has been found to be more of a science book than the Bible :)

By Muslims.

It's worth remembering that.

Peace

That may be true, but one thing is for sure. The Qur'an does not contradict Science in any way.

With regards to the topic at hand, I very much echo the sentiment in glo's signature whilst praying that Allah guides us all to the right path.

[Whatsthepoint]

That may be true, but one thing is for sure. The Qur'an does not contradict Science in any way.

Nor does the Bible.
Both books appear to contradict science but according to apologetics, they don't.

[AhlaamBella]

The Qur'an does not contradict Science in any way.

Exactly :)

With regards to the topic at hand, I very much echo the sentiment in glo's signature and whilst pray that Allah guides us all to the right path.

Ameen :)

[Grace Seeker]

Nor does the Bible.
Both books appear to contradict science but according to apologetics, they don't.

I don't know. I'll agree with Rose that the Bible is not a book of science. I don't think it was ever even intended to be taken that way. Some of the problems with the Christian faith and the history of the church are because some people have misapplied it to say things about the natural world it never really tried to say. And then today people correctly challenge those ideas and say that the Bible contradict science, when in reality the points of supposed contradiction were never meant as as statements of scientific fact to begin with and were erroneously put forth as such when they should not have been.

[Keltoi]

I agree with Grace Seeker on that point. The Bible is about God's interaction with people, not a book about physics, biology, atomic theory, etc. Personally I find it unnecessary when Christian apologetics get into debates about earth science in regards to the Bible.

[Keltoi]

Yes, my perception is that the Christian experience is much more emotional and the Muslim one is more intellectual. Islam is much more rational and logical than is Christianity.

My perception is that Islam is more about the material and physical world, especially in the context of Paradise, while Christianity is more concerned with eternal salvation and a personal relationship with Christ.

Our perceptions are just that. I would even agree that Christianity is more emotional than Islam. A faith based around a God of mercy who through love experienced torture, suffering, and death to achieve atonement for human beings leads to an emotional spirituality.

[MustafaMc]

My perception is that Islam is more about the material and physical world, especially in the context of Paradise, while Christianity is more concerned with eternal salvation and a personal relationship with Christ.

I appreciate your perspective, but I am not sure what you mean by the "material and physical world". Perhaps, you mean the houris (virgins), wearing gold and silk, the drinking of wine and other "carnal" pleasures. My life's goal is much the same as when I was a Christian - achieving eternal salvation and the avoidance of Hellfire. But I won't deny that the image I have of Jannah is infinitely more appealing that of Jahannam.

[Aurora]

Since you don't believe in Allah, do you believe in another Deity?If you don't believe in Allah, why are you concerned about burning in Hell for eternity? I know some who believe in God, but not in life after death; however, you are the first I have known that believe the reverse. Do you care to explain what you believe?

I don't believe in God or an afterlife.

[Aurora]

Here we go. You say you don't understand what the Quran is saying. Here is an excellent article I have found WITH PROOFS from the Quran explaining the details of this.

http://www.----------------/articles/g...em/destiny.htm

In the end you have isolated one verse from the Quran without considering its relationship with other verses on the subject. A poor effort on your part and a common tactic among disbelievers.:cry:

That article is from a hadith rejector site. I don't think the scholars even see them as Muslim.

[MustafaMc]

I don't believe in God or an afterlife.

Then what did you mean by, "I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want to burn in hell for the rest of eternity." It seems that you are not convinced there is no Hereafter. You may BELIEVE that there is no Heaven or Hell, like in John Lennon's "Imagine", but what IF there really is a God and an Afterlife? What have you done to prepare for that eternal possibility?

Caution has music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

[AntiKarateKid]

That article is from a hadith rejector site. I don't think the scholars even see them as Muslim.

Don't take that site as the ultimate source of course, but I just searched for a minute or two and saw that. The point was that there are answers out there. Look for them.

[AntiKarateKid]

My perception is that Islam is more about the material and physical world, especially in the context of Paradise, while Christianity is more concerned with eternal salvation and a personal relationship with Christ.

Our perceptions are just that. I would even agree that Christianity is more emotional than Islam. A faith based around a God of mercy who through love experienced torture, suffering, and death to achieve atonement for human beings leads to an emotional spirituality.

Just because the Quran integrates the material with the unseen does not mean that it is about only this. It is a common misconception that the material world, which God himself created, is at odds to the spiritual one. Quite the contrary. They both come from the same place, God, so that contradiction is impossible. There are rules of course to be followed and Islam covers that so that we don't become self flagellating monks in a secluded mountaintop.



I disagree with your perception because I feel taht you are focusing on the DOZEN or so material verses and neglecting the THOUSANDS of others relating to the afterlife.


I would counter in fact taht Christianity, with a god that has become human and gets to suffer and such has more to to with the material world than a religion which fobids images of God and the prophets and rejects any material gods.



On the personal relationship part, God describes himself at the beginning of each Surah and has given us his 99 names too in addition to alot of other stuff. A human form of him is not necessary to be personal with your creator who gave you that body in the first place.


A faith based around a god of mercy? Sounds familiar.. oh yea

bismi-llāhi ar-raḥmāni ar-raḥīmi
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

The thing we say before almost every prayer and many Surahs... :rollseyes

[AntiKarateKid]

An afterthought, Muslims don't generally need to say " God suffered for me" to feel his mercy since our very existence and lives are granted by him.

[The_Prince]

keltoi hit the NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK U! see im not a bigot after all! i have been saying time and time again for Christians its all about how they feel, the emotions etc etc, that feel good happy sad factor that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy.

for Muslims its about truth and evidences and FACTS, not warm fuzzy emotional feelings. :)

[AntiKarateKid]

keltoi hit the NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK U! see im not a bigot after all! i have been saying time and time again for Christians its all about how they feel, the emotions etc etc, that feel good happy sad factor that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy.

for Muslims its about truth and evidences and FACTS, not warm fuzzy emotional feelings. :)

Well brother I must disagree... I also have warm fuzzy feelings in addition to the facts of the Quran but I am not a Christian...

[The_Prince]

Well brother I must disagree... I also have warm fuzzy feelings in addition to the facts of the Quran but I am not a Christian...

but its not your main reason, for most Christians its the emotion thats their main reason.

go watch all these vids of ppl becomming Christian, its all cause they felt happyyyyyy and fuzzyyyyyyyyy, not because of any real facts.

[Grace Seeker]

keltoi hit the NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK U! see im not a bigot after all! i have been saying time and time again for Christians its all about how they feel, the emotions etc etc, that feel good happy sad factor that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy.

for Muslims its about truth and evidences and FACTS, not warm fuzzy emotional feelings. :)

But what you are saying is NOT what Keltoi actually said:

I would even agree that Christianity is more emotional than Islam. A faith based around a God of mercy who through love experienced torture, suffering, and death to achieve atonement for human beings leads to an emotional spirituality.

He said that it is more emotion than Islam, not that it is emotional. And in saying that it leads toward an emotional spirituality, it is saying first that it is a form of spirituality. But Christianity is neither purely emotion, nor devoid of emotion.

We recognize that we have fallen short of what God desires for us in our lives. We experience a type of godly sorrow as we become aware of how far we have fallen short, and no matter all of our good deeds we are still not holy as God would have us be holy. We feel remorse at the depth of our sinfulness. We recognize the utter futility of trying to become righteous by shear effort as if we could somehow pull ourselves up by own bootstraps, and we become ashamed of the pride we have exhibit toward God that somehow he should be pleased with us when all our righteousness is like filthy rags. And we recognize that we not nearly as close to God as we would like to think we are and that instead we are totally and utterly lost without him. Then, in the midst of the despair over our eternal condition, we hear the good news of salvation and redemption available for those who trust in Christ. This good news produces a well of hope that springs up within us. We turn to Christ and with joy receive the gift he offers to us, that we who are not God's people might be accepted as sons and daughters of God, joined to him by the work of Christ. We find peace and contentment as we once again are living in fellowship with God. And we rejoice all the more when we see others experience this same salvation. These are the emotions of our journey with Christ, but it is first and foremost a spiritual journey. It might produce emotions within us, just as observing the work of God in a sunset or the Grand Canyon always produces emotions within me. But the emotion is just a by product of my celebration of what God has done and is doing in me. They are neither a means nor an end to any part of the journey.

Are there not emotions like these I have mentioned (highlighted above) in Islam?

[mkh4JC]

In relation to Chrisitians and what they experience, I just thought I'd post, from scripture, what separates the Christian lifestyle from every other faith based lifesytle.

'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whomsoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36. This is talking about freedom from sin, no matter what your background is.

'Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' II Corinthians 5: 17. This is not just referencing your mindset, but your lifestyle, you completely throwing off the sinful man and putting on the righteousness of God.

Here's two more verses:

'What shall we say then? Shall we contine in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.

Or here:

'All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.' 1 John 5: 17-20.

When the Bible says that Jesus died to take away the sins of the world, that's exactly what it means. It doesn't just mean that he died in all of our places, it means that he came to enable us to live victorious lives, no matter what kind of past we may have.

In Christianity, it's not always necessarily about how you feel, because your feelings can betray you. It's about how you are living, or how you have been enabled to live, through the power of almighty God.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

but its not your main reason, for most Christians its the emotion thats their main reason.

How do you know?

Peace

[Aurora]

Then what did you mean by, "I was serious and still am about finding the truth; it is not like I want to burn in hell for the rest of eternity." It seems that you are not convinced there is no Hereafter. You may BELIEVE that there is no Heaven or Hell, like in John Lennon's "Imagine", but what IF there really is a God and an Afterlife? What have you done to prepare for that eternal possibility?

I don't know for certain whether there is an afterlife or not. I cannot think of a good reason to believe that it exists, and at the moment I doubt that it exists. I don't know what I could do to prepare for an afterlife since I'm not convinced by any religion. To me Hinduism's afterlife where people are reincarnated into something based on the good that they've done is as likely as Islam's afterlife where getting into heaven and hell is based on belief and Ibadah. If there is a hell I obviously don't want to go there and I do feel sincere about finding the truth.

Caution has music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

I love that song :D

[Aurora]

Don't take that site as the ultimate source of course, but I just searched for a minute or two and saw that. The point was that there are answers out there. Look for them.

Thanks for making the effort.

[MustafaMc]

I don't know for certain whether there is an afterlife or not. I cannot think of a good reason to believe that it exists, and at the moment I doubt that it exists.

I agree that this is something that can't be proven - that is why they call it faith. Honestly, Islam requires a lot of faith, 1) in a God that can not be sensed, 2) that God sent prophets and messengers to mankind, 3) that God revealed messages to mankind through these messengers, 4) that God created angels as spiritual beings, 5) that we will be raised from the dead to face Judgment Day and spend eternity in Heaven or Hell, and 6) that all that happens, the good and the bad, occurs by the Will of God.

Of course, if the first article is false then all of the rest are false too. For myself, I choose to believe that there is a God. I am a plant geneticist and I have some understanding of biology and molecular genetics. I am convinced that this universe and this tiny infintesimally small planet with all of its diversity of life and intricacies of biological systems did not happen by chance, but rather was created by a Divine Being that is infinitely greater than this universe. I choose to believe the rest of the articles of faith because I accept Muhammad as the last Messenger of the Divine Being that we know as Allah through the book He revealed to Muhammad.

If you choose to not share this faith, then of course you have that right to make your own life decisions. Neither I nor anyone else can force you to believe differently than what you choose to believe or disbelieve.

I don't know what I could do to prepare for an afterlife since I'm not convinced by any religion. To me Hinduism's afterlife where people are reincarnated into something based on the good that they've done is as likely as Islam's afterlife where getting into heaven and hell is based on belief and Ibadah.

You are right that proper faith in One God and performance of good deeds such as worship and charity according to His Will are requirements for entrance into Heaven. We will never know for certain if any religion is true at least this side of the grave. After we die, it will be too late then to make any changes.

If there is a hell I obviously don't want to go there and I do feel sincere about finding the truth.

Who in their right mind would choose to go to Hell, but if it doesn't exist, what do you have to worry about?

I love that song :D

Yes, even the irreligious long for a utopia.