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Thinker
08-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Not sure if this is the right place on this site to pose this question but here goes. . .

At this moment in time, I believe agnostic would be the closet a description of me and my beliefs.

I am not active in the pursuit of any religious or political ideal but as an ordinary thinking human being, I have, for some time, been perplexed to hear different Muslims with different and conflicting ideologies all of whom base what they say on the Qur’an. Sat next to a Muslim on a recent flight I plucked up the courage to ask him how that could be. I didn’t get a clear answer but he left me with the challenge “read the Qur’an and I will find the answers to my questions.” I had the time sitting in airports and on planes so I took up the challenge and I have read the Qur’an, some Hadiths and some research yet I am still without an answer which sits comfortably. So here I am at the font of all knowledge (on this subject) – does anybody have the answer to my question – “How can the moderate and the radical Muslims get totally conflicting messages from the same book?”

Thinker
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Cabdullahi
08-12-2008, 01:40 PM
we human beings are stupendous people,most of us cannot follow a simple rule
the govenrment says do not drink over the limit and come Friday night almost everybody drinks over the limit
same with the quran, a simple and straightforward rule DO NOT KILL THE INNOCENT and only defend youselves when under oppression,but the radical sees whats going on in the middle east and either preaches to kill innocent civilians in europe most of them whom are probably against the western occupations or he goes out and does the job himself
the quran doesnt say anywhere do this sadistic act of killings
Like i said it is not the book thats causing the confusion its just man and his evil ways
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noorahmad
08-12-2008, 01:41 PM
i believe it is upon how you interprete the quraan( the best known tafsir is that of ibn kathir), and i do think it relies also upon the temperament and personality of the person, for being eitheer a moderate or an extremist
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Keltoi
08-12-2008, 05:54 PM
I would also suggest that extremism is usually tied to guidance. Meaning extremists of every creed are generally led to that mindset by another person in a leadership or role model type role.
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Thinker
08-13-2008, 12:45 PM
Hi,

I wonder if my question was too simple?

Reading through some of the postings on this site it is clear that an enormous amount of time and effort is spent researching answers to what some might describe as the lesser important questions.

For example I have just read through a VERY detailed analysis of the question ‘is it wrong to listen to music.’ Set out below are some of the headings under which lay the author’s detailed critical analysis of the available material on that question.

Quraanic verses claimed to indicate the legality of music;
Quraanic verses alleged to indicate prohibition of music;
Exceptions indicated by the authentic Sunnah;
The Hadeeth literature;
The consensus of the Companions, Taabieen Imams and other Fuqahaa;
The view of the Taabi'een Imams and scholars after them.

At the end of this detailed critical analysis the author concludes that it is wrong to listen to some types of music but not to some other types and he tries to indicate which is OK and which is not. Perhaps someone can point me towards a similarly detailed analysis on the question I posed?

I asked the question – “how do moderate and radical Muslims get different answers from the Qur’an?” I didn’t get a clear answer. I will suggest an answer based somewhat upon the example on the music question. It may not be the correct answer but it is an answer which I pose hoping that some of you more learned than I can depose this answer. I apologies in advance if anyone finds offence in this answer; my intention is not to offend but to provoke debate on a question which I believe is important.

Answer: Moderate and radical Muslims get able to find different answers from their reading of the Qur’an because it contains so many contradictory verses it is ambiguous and open to conflicting interpretations.


Thinker
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Keltoi
08-13-2008, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi,

I wonder if my question was too simple?

Reading through some of the postings on this site it is clear that an enormous amount of time and effort is spent researching answers to what some might describe as the lesser important questions.

For example I have just read through a VERY detailed analysis of the question ‘is it wrong to listen to music.’ Set out below are some of the headings under which lay the author’s detailed critical analysis of the available material on that question.

Quraanic verses claimed to indicate the legality of music;
Quraanic verses alleged to indicate prohibition of music;
Exceptions indicated by the authentic Sunnah;
The Hadeeth literature;
The consensus of the Companions, Taabieen Imams and other Fuqahaa;
The view of the Taabi'een Imams and scholars after them.

At the end of this detailed critical analysis the author concludes that it is wrong to listen to some types of music but not to some other types and he tries to indicate which is OK and which is not. Perhaps someone can point me towards a similarly detailed analysis on the question I posed?

I asked the question – “how do moderate and radical Muslims get different answers from the Qur’an?” I didn’t get a clear answer. I will suggest an answer based somewhat upon the example on the music question. It may not be the correct answer but it is an answer which I pose hoping that some of you more learned than I can depose this answer. I apologies in advance if anyone finds offence in this answer; my intention is not to offend but to provoke debate on a question which I believe is important.

Answer: Moderate and radical Muslims get able to find different answers from their reading of the Qur’an because it contains so many contradictory verses it is ambiguous and open to conflicting interpretations.


Thinker
I think your premise is that since there are differences of opinion about whether something is allowed in Islam that logically leads to the conclusion that the Qu'ran is ambiguous. Speaking as a non-Muslim, I do not believe in the pure infallibility of any written word. People are always going to have their own agendas, and they will often use religious text as a means to justify it.

This has been repeated time and time again by both Christians and Muslims, but context is crucial for a true understanding of both the Bible and the Qu'ran. If one takes verses out of context they can be twisted to mean something that they were never meant to convey. Personally, I do not see that as a problem with the text, but a problem with people. Some people are easily led and do not honestly educate themselves about their own religion. That goes for Christians and Muslims.
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aamirsaab
08-14-2008, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
... So here I am at the font of all knowledge (on this subject) – does anybody have the answer to my question – “How can the moderate and the radical Muslims get totally conflicting messages from the same book?”

Thinker
I shall demonstrate with this post:

Source 1: I really love apples.
Source 2: I ate an apple last night.
Source 3: Apples are awesome.
Source 4: One time, I get really vexed - I threw an apple at some guys head!
Source 5: Apples come in red and green.


Person A reads the above sources (in the order presented) and comes to the conclusion that clearly aamirsaab loves his apples, but one time he had to throw one at someone.

Person B reads only sources 4 and then source 3. He comes to the conclusion that aamirsaab only loves apples because he can throw them at people.

In both cases the same information has been read but human error has caused a misinterpretation of the data allowing for two seperate interpretations (mainly because person B didn't read all of the sources!).
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AntiKarateKid
08-14-2008, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I shall demonstrate with this post:

Source 1: I really love apples.
Source 2: I ate an apple last night.
Source 3: Apples are awesome.
Source 4: One time, I get really vexed - I threw an apple at some guys head!
Source 5: Apples come in red and green.


Person A reads the above sources (in the order presented) and comes to the conclusion that clearly aamirsaab loves his apples, but one time he had to throw one at someone.

Person B reads only sources 4 and then source 3. He comes to the conclusion that aamirsaab only loves apples because he can throw them at people.

In both cases the same information has been read but human error has caused a misinterpretation of the data allowing for two seperate interpretations (mainly because person B didn't read all of the sources!).



Exactly. By the way, the Prophet ( pbuh) said that our Umma will never unite on falsehood. So basically the majority will always be right because truth is clearer than falsehood and when looking at the big picture, you can see it.


By the way, Allah has already told us that near the end days, our scholars will pretty much be gone and people will forget what Islam really is and start misinterpreting it based on the arguments of false scholars and lead those who arent careful into error.


Majority says killing innocents is wrong, drinking, etc.

An example? Well it is agreed that homosexuality is forbidden and this is how its always been yet recently there are scholars who claim that it isnt. They can be refuted but noone is doing it.
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MaiCarInMtl
08-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
An example? Well it is agreed that homosexuality is forbidden and this is how its always been yet recently there are scholars who claim that it isnt. They can be refuted but noone is doing it.
Whaaaa????!!!! Who claimed this? (Sorry, it's the first time I've ever heard of this)
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ummsara1108
08-16-2008, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Not sure if this is the right place on this site to pose this question but here goes. . .

At this moment in time, I believe agnostic would be the closet a description of me and my beliefs.

I am not active in the pursuit of any religious or political ideal but as an ordinary thinking human being, I have, for some time, been perplexed to hear different Muslims with different and conflicting ideologies all of whom base what they say on the Qur’an. Sat next to a Muslim on a recent flight I plucked up the courage to ask him how that could be. I didn’t get a clear answer but he left me with the challenge “read the Qur’an and I will find the answers to my questions.” I had the time sitting in airports and on planes so I took up the challenge and I have read the Qur’an, some Hadiths and some research yet I am still without an answer which sits comfortably. So here I am at the font of all knowledge (on this subject) – does anybody have the answer to my question – “How can the moderate and the radical Muslims get totally conflicting messages from the same book?”

Thinker
People believe what they wanna believe and hear what they wanna hear, and also see what they wanna see, get the point? There is no human the same as another, so for the radicals, I believe they follow according to what they wanna follow, besides I think the redicals just use islam as a form of ID.
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Thinker
08-16-2008, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
By the way, Allah has already told us that near the end days, our scholars will pretty much be gone and people will forget what Islam really is and start misinterpreting it based on the arguments of false scholars and lead those who arent careful into error.
Hi, Can you tell me where the above quote is written?
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Thinker
08-16-2008, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think your premise is that since there are differences of opinion about whether something is allowed in Islam that logically leads to the conclusion that the Qu'ran is ambiguous. Speaking as a non-Muslim, I do not believe in the pure infallibility of any written word. People are always going to have their own agendas, and they will often use religious text as a means to justify it.
First let me say I am here to learn not to offend but I cannot learn without making observations and asking questions. . . . . .

Sometimes when your so closely wrapped in something for so long you can't see things that appear odd to somebody coming in from the outside. Having recently set about reading Islamic literature to learn and understand some things which to me appear contradictory to others appear unambiguous. I start with the Qur'an and the suggestion that it is the word of God dictated to Mohammed who infallibly memorises it and dictates it to others who unerringly record it; then there are abrogated verses; then there are Hadiths which appear to add to or explain verses in the Qur’an; then there are the teachings of the companions which add another layer; then there are the views view of the Taabi'een Imams; the there are the interpretations of the many scholars that follow on so that even today things are being amended.

If the Qur’an is so clear why does it need so many layers of clarification and explanation?
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aamirsaab
08-16-2008, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
...
If the Qur’an is so clear why does it need so many layers of clarification and explanation?
I shall again explain in this post with an example:

''Drinking water is good for you''

Person A reads that statement and drinks some water.
Person B reads that statement and asks: well, what type of water? Tap water? Bottled water?
Person C reads it and thinks: Give me a good reason why we should drink water! And until you do, I'll continue NOT drinking it!
Person D reads it and asks: How much should we drink?!

The statement is actually quite clear but again human error (stupidity) has lead to misinterpretation. It is exactly these types of errors (as shown in my previous post also) that I have read with regards to the Qu'ran; if people actually just read the ayats or surahs (as opposed to looking at an ayat here or there) they'd see the clarity.
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