Does the Christian Bible ever portray the disciples worshipping Jesus?

[Grace Seeker]

The term Lord ,as you know better than me ,could be used either as a title of respect or to worship


John 13:4 He rises from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter said unto him, Lord,(respect) dost thou wash my feet?


Lord(God) Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.


But it is not our issue ,our issue is that ,what violates the Quranic principles regarding monotheism?

The [Qur'anic] verse says:
9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

Not

They call their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics Lords.


Call Jesus ,Lord ,if you wish ,day and night ,never never take him as Lord besides God ....

So, how should we interepret Thomas' response on his first encounter with Jesus following his resurrection:

John 20
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Is Thomas simply using a title of respect or is Thomas offering worship?

What is the reason that Thomas calls Jesus God?

[_ALI_]

Salam

So, how should we interepret Thomas' response on his first encounter with Jesus following his resurrection:
Quote:
John 20
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Is Thomas simply using a title of respect or is Thomas offering worship?

What is the reason that Thomas calls Jesus God?

There are two ways to reply to this.
1)In the context, you will come to know that this happened after Jesus was nailed to the cross (according to the Bible, not according to me) The disciples had heard from hearsay that Jesus was dead. Imagine, a person who you thought was dead just come in front of you as if he was alive. Would that not make you exclaim “My God!”. Thus Thomas was not calling Jesus God, he was only exclaiming.
2)Prophets have been called god many times according to the Bible.
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.EX 7:1
So Moses is called god here.
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.PSALMS 82:6
Here God refers to all the prophets.

[Grace Seeker]

But if we are truly reading in context, then one must consider John's own comments at the conclusion of this story, that it was told that we might believe that Jesus is the "Son of God". This would seem to indicate not that Thomas was just making an exclamation, but that he was making a declaration of faith.

Also, while today we might indeed hear people using God's name in an exclamation, such an exclamation without actually meaning would be taking God's name in vain, a breaking of one of the commandments. Though we probably all know people who use invectives today, this is of a different pattern. While I have heard people say, "My God" or even "My Lord"; I have never heard anyone say "My Lord and my God." I know of no other examples of this particular form of exclamation that meets the pattern you suggest from this time period, and certainly no where else in the Biblical record. This leads me to believe that these words do indeed carry weight, and are not just words. Further, John tells us that Thomas didn't just say these words to the wind, but actually directed them toward Jesus: "Thomas said to him." And lastly, Jesus himself takes them to be a statement of faith: "you have believed."

None of this fits the model of being a simple exclamatory statement as you have described.

[Imam]

Does the Christian Bible ever portray the disciples worshipping Jesus?

No, It doesn't

The one they worshipped ,is the same one whom Jesus prayed to :

Luk 11:1 Now Jesus was praying in a
certain place, and when he finished, one of
his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to
pray, as John taught his disciples.”
Jesus’ answered
Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: "Our Father
in heaven, hallowed be your name.
:10 Your kingdom come, your will
be done, on earth as it is in heaven

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Is Thomas simply using a title of respect or is Thomas offering worship?

In
John 20:28
was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

before any further discussion with you,I need short, direct answer with textual proof....

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Grace Seeker]

before any further discussion with you,I need short, direct answer with textual proof....

Your wish is my command:
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 28:17 και ιδοντες αυτον προσεκυνησαν οι δε εδιστασαν

[Imam]

Your wish is my command:
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 28:17 και ιδοντες αυτον προσεκυνησαν οι δε εδιστασαν

Seeker ,Seeker

That is my wish,and is yours too,as you who intiated the thread with...

John 20:28
ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.


again my question:

was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

Just yes or no

if yes then upon what basis he thought so?

[Keltoi]

Seeker ,Seeker

That is my wish,and is yours too,as you who intiated the thread with...

John 20:28
ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.


again my question:

was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

Just yes or no

if yes then upon what basis he thought so?

Yes, Thomas did believe that. Why? Probably because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before him. Death had no power over Christ.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:28-29).

Jesus Himself agreed with Thomas and his belief that Christ was indeed his Lord and God. I'm not sure what else can be said about it.

* To add to that, what are we to make of John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?, which literally means "God among us?" Why would John refer to Him as "God among us" if John didn't literally think God was among us?

[Whatsthepoint]

Salam

There are two ways to reply to this.
1)In the context, you will come to know that this happened after Jesus was nailed to the cross (according to the Bible, not according to me) The disciples had heard from hearsay that Jesus was dead. Imagine, a person who you thought was dead just come in front of you as if he was alive. Would that not make you exclaim “My God!”. Thus Thomas was not calling Jesus God, he was only exclaiming.
2)Prophets have been called god many times according to the Bible.
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.EX 7:1
So Moses is called god here.
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.PSALMS 82:6
Here God refers to all the prophets.

The Quran says Jesus ascended to heaven just before the crucifixion (or something like that), so unless Allah made Jesus appear to the disciples neither of the explanations is compliant with Islam..

[Imam]

Yes, Thomas did believe that. Why? Probably because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before him. Death had no power over Christ.

because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before Thomas ,he believed ,but believed what according to the text ?Did he doubt that Jesus is God and due to to the resurrection he believed so? or he doubted something else till he verified and then believed?

The text is clear:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doubted the resurrection not the nature of Jesus....

now waiting for seeker's response

To add to that, what are we to make of John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?, which literally means "God among us?" Why would John refer to Him as "God among us" if John didn't literally think God was among us?

John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?

What a Joke !!!

you can search John till day of judgment and never find the word Immanuel,never ever !!!!

[Keltoi]

because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before Thomas ,he believed ,but believed what according to the text ?Did he doubt that Jesus is God and due to to the resurrection he believed so? or he doubted something else till he verified and then believed?

The text is clear:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doubted the resurrection not the nature of Jesus....

now waiting for seeker's response



John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?

What a Joke !!!

you can search John till day of judgment and never find the word Immanuel,never ever !!!!

Actually you are correct, the author I was thinking of is Matthew.

Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Speaking of John however, these verses are very telling in regards to this discussion.

John 5:18 “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 “The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

[Imam]

Actually you are correct, the author I was thinking of is Matthew. Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

you know that Matthew1:23 besides the other passages of the old testament which he distorted ,misused in his writings , is the reason No.1 why I believe that the NT writers not only being victims to the hearsay sources but also INTENTIONALLY lied...

Believe it or not ,If you ask me why I don't believe in the NT as a valid source to know God,I would answer you (the so called messianic prophecies)....

the other topics,contradictions,trinity etc......are all of minor importance to me......

anyway it is not our topic.......would be nice if you open new thread with the title (messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus) and promise you to be the first visitor there....

Speaking of John however, these verses are very telling in regards to this discussion.

John 5:18 “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 “The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

And

Jesus responded: "Isn't it written in your law, 'I said, you are gods?' If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken), Do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' " (John 10:34-36)

[Keltoi]

you know that Matthew1:23 besides the other passages of the old testament which he distorted ,misused in his writings , is the reason No.1 why I believe that the NT writers not only being victims to the hearsay sources but also INTENTIONALLY lied...

Believe it or not ,If you ask me why I don't believe in the NT as a valid source to know God,I would answer you (the so called messianic prophecies)....

the other topics,contradictions,trinity etc......are all of minor importance to me......

anyway it is not our topic.......would be nice if you open new thread with the title (messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus) and promise you to be the first visitor there....





And

Jesus responded: "Isn't it written in your law, 'I said, you are gods?' If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken), Do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' " (John 10:34-36)

You are actually making my point. Christ quotes a verse out of Psalms 82:6

I said, "You are gods,

And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Nevertheless you will die like men

And fall like any one of the princes."

Why did He quote that verse? He is referring to judges, who have been given authority over men by God's commission. That is to say, they are "gods", but not by their own commission, but by God's commission. ( to whom the Word of God came) Jesus is actually saying that His title of "Son of God" is not of His own proclamation, but comes as a result of the Father's commission. (sanctified and sent into the World)

To repeat in hopefully more clear language:

The Scripture says that God calls the judges in Psalm 82 'gods' on the basis of their divine commission. Thus, since the Scripture cannot be wrong, it is not blasphemy for one with a divine commission to have a divine title. Christ did not have a commission like the judges; He had an exclusive commission from my Father, for He set Christ apart and sent me into the world - to do the works the Pharisees had seen, to say the words He said, to grant eternal life.

[Grace Seeker]

because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before Thomas ,he believed ,but believed what according to the text ?Did he doubt that Jesus is God and due to to the resurrection he believed so? or he doubted something else till he verified and then believed?

The text is clear:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doubted the resurrection not the nature of Jesus....

Exactly, Thomas did doubt "it", that the disciples had seen the Lord. He doubted the news of the resurrection that had been told him by his fellow disciples. Why? Because he knew Jesus was dead. He would need more than just their word for it that he was now alive. He would need to see with his own eyes. And then he did. And when he did, he realized that this man whom he had come to know as God's anointed was more than just anointed by God, but was in fact God (the only God Thomas knew being Yahweh) among them. That is why Jesus praised him for his belief. But I already said all of this above how John uses Thomas statement to substantiate his own claim for Jesus' divinity.

John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?

you can search John till day of judgment and never find the word Immanuel,never ever !!!!

You are correct on this. It is Matthew who applies the name "Immanuel" to Jesus. The closest John comes to calling Jesus Immanuel (meaning "God with us") is: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

[Grace Seeker]

Believe it or not ,If you ask me why I don't believe in the NT as a valid source to know God,I would answer you (the so called messianic prophecies)....

BTW, I can actually appreciate that point of view. On this I think Matthew was more than just a little over enthusiastic. He seems to have been so enamored of proving the concept of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah that he doesn't mind doing things like adapting Jesus' geneology to better fit the theme he has created. Certainly not what a good biographer would do today, but then again Matthew was NOT trying to be a biographer, and the standards for writing in his day where different than what they are in ours today. If that makes you doubt the veracity of the rest of Matthew I can understand that.

Given that, I suppose that would be reason enough for you for doubting the veracity of Matthew's report of the disciples' worshipping of Jesus in Matthew 28:17?

[Imam]

Exactly, Thomas did doubt "it", that the disciples had seen the Lord. He doubted the news of the resurrection that had been told him by his fellow disciples. Why? Because he knew Jesus was dead. He would need more than just their word for it that he was now alive. He would need to see with his own eyes. And then he did. And when he did, he realized that this man whom he had come to know as God's anointed was more than just anointed by God, but was in fact God (the only God Thomas knew being Yahweh) among them. That is why Jesus praised him for his belief. But I already said all of this above how John uses Thomas statement to substantiate his own claim for Jesus' divinity.
.

The second part of your post is flawed....

Where in the passage Jesus ever praised Thomas?!! Actually he praised those who have not seen the resurrected Jesus and yet have believed THE RESURRECTION...


Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me,not doubting me being God) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed(that I was resurrected); blessed are those who have not seen (me resurrected)and yet have believed."

when Thomas saw with his own eyes the resurrected Jesus he believed,according to the text ,what he doubted before (Jesus still dead).....
Do we have any textual clues that Thomas doubted Jesus being God and by the resurrection he believed so?!

don't you believe that the story line should be consistent?


If Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,when he said "My Lord and my God!" upon what basis he thought so? ?

Just answer me ,and step by step ,we will arrive together to my conclusion ....

[IbnAbdulHakim]

arguing with altered scriptures is futile

[Grace Seeker]

If Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,when he said "My Lord and my God!" upon what basis he thought so? ?

Just answer me ,and step by step ,we will arrive together to my conclusion ....

The basis for me believing that Thomas believed Jesus was God, Yahweh, is simple. Yahweh is the only God that Thomas knew, and yet Thomas addresses Jesus as "my God". I accept that at face value. Your hypothesis that he meant something different by the phrase is unsubstantiated conjecture.

[Grace Seeker]

arguing with altered scriptures is futile

Notice that the question is not did the disciples ever worship Jesus, but does the Bible portray them doing so. If you are uninterested in what the Bible actually says, then it would be wise to post elsewhere.

[Imam]

Yahweh is the only God that Thomas knew, and yet Thomas addresses Jesus as "my God". .

well done ,seeker

you answered the first part of my question,

Yes , Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him.


Now

the second part;

What is the reason Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him?

I don't see in the passage anything suggested Thomas doubted Jesus as being God and suddenly he discovered it !....

Our discussion will not go any further ,before providing me a textual explanation ,why in the context of the passage, Thomas uttered (my lord and My God)....in the sense of discovering that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him....???

[Keltoi]

well done ,seeker

you answered the first part of my question,

Yes , Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him.


Now

the second part;

What is the reason Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him?

I don't see in the passage anything suggested Thomas doubted Jesus as being God and suddenly he discovered it !....

Our discussion will not go any further ,before providing me a textual explanation ,why in the context of the passage, Thomas uttered (my lord and My God)....in the sense of discovering that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him....???

If it has been established that Thomas was indeed calling Jesus "my God", then yes, the next question is why did he think that?

That does indeed require context, and the context is what did the disciples know about Christ's relationship with the Father prior to His death and resurrection?

As we saw in the passages from John, the Pharisees believed Christ to be claiming divinity. If the Pharisees thought Christ to be claiming divinity, wouldn't it stand to reason that the disciples of Christ would have understood this as well? If they did understand this, then they probably also understood the relationship that Christ was claiming to have with God. That would explain why Thomas had God "on his mind" so to speak, especially in the context of Christ's resurrection.

[Grace Seeker]

I don't see in the passage anything suggested Thomas doubted Jesus as being God and suddenly he discovered it !....

I have never said that Thomas doubted that Jesus was God. If you've thought I've said that, then you're reading into me statements. (He may have doubted, he may have not doubted -- I haven't said either way.) Most likely, if you want my opinion, he had never thought about it at all, just like you've never considered the possibility that my real name might be Jesse Jackson or Billy Graham. For all you know about me either of those might be true, but you've never once considered it, in fact you've thought so little about it you've never doubted that I wasn't them either.

What I have said that Thomas doubted was the other disciples' statements that Jesus was alive.

What is the reason Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him?

We are not told. We are only told the reason that he believed Jesus was alive -- namely that he saw him with his own eyes.

Our discussion will not go any further ,before providing me a textual explanation ,why in the context of the passage, Thomas uttered (my lord and My God)....in the sense of discovering that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him....???

Then I guess our discussion is at an end. The passage doesn't tell us why Thomas uttered "my Lord and my God". It only tells us that indeed Thomas addressed Jesus thusly. And the context of the passage bears out that his usage was not merely some sort of exclamatory comment of excitement nor a titular use of the words, but that he was acknowledging Jesus as being both his Lord and his God. John's comments immeidiately following that pericope make it clear that he is using Thomas' comments as substantive declarations backing up his own claims regarding Jesus.

If you find that unsatisfactory, and you still want to get inside Thomas' head, then you are going to have to use a process that brings in other information from other pericopes such as what Keltoi has done above.

[Imam]

I honestly appreciate your honest modification of your thoughts regarding the passage under discussion

from


The passage does tell us why Thomas uttered "my Lord and my God"

He would need to see with his own eyes. And then he did. And when he did, he realized that this man whom he had come to know as God's anointed was more than just anointed by God, but was in fact God among them. That is why Jesus praised him for his belief. .

To

The passage doesn't tell us why Thomas uttered "my Lord and my God"

The passage doesn't tell us why Thomas uttered "my Lord and my God". ,What I have said that Thomas doubted was the other disciples' statements that Jesus was alive We are only told the reason that he believed Jesus was alive -- namely that he saw him with his own eyes..

Truly and honestly I appreciate your modification, me being honest and objective in study,If I were you ,I would really do the same..

though I disagree with you in the following:

the context of the passage bears out that his usage was not merely some sort of exclamatory comment of excitement nor a titular use of the words

If we agree that the context of the passage affirms that Thomas doubted the other disciples' statements that Jesus was alive.and after he saw him with his own eyes,he believed he was alive.on the other hand Jesus did absolutely nothing special to provoke Thomas to call him God,as you said,The passage doesn't tell us why Thomas uttered "my Lord and my God",moreover Jesus doesn't say anything about Thomas' statement ,He just emphasizes Thomas' belief that Jesus was really alive , which he doubted......

in light of all that It is wise to arrive to the conclusion:

the phrase "my Lord and my God" is not only at odd with the context but also
claiming that Jesus is Lord and God is a violation of scripture, which asserts that there is One God, the Father and One Lord, Jesus.

"...yet for us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord, Jesus Christ ...(I Corinthians 8:6)

Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. -- Romans 15:6.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. -- 2 Corinthians 1:3; Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.


Ehrman in (The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture) highlighted the problem :

Another passage that can be taken to suggest that Christ is "God" himself (i.e., ho theos, with the article) occurs near the end of the Fourth Gospel, and here again one should not be surprised to find scribes modifying the text. Upon seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas exclaims, "My Lord and my God" (ho theos mou). The passage has caused interpreters problems over the years; Theodore of Mopsuestia argued that the words were not addressed directly to Jesus but were uttered in praise of God the Father. Modern commentators have also found the phrasing problematic, because unlike the statement of 1:1, where the Word is theos (without the article), here Jesus is expressly entitled ho theos. How can one avoid drawing from this designation the conclusion that he is the one and only "God"? Several scribes of the early church adroitly handled the matter in what can be construed as an anti-Patripassianist corruption: the predecessor of codex Bezae and other Gospel manuscripts simply omitted the article. Jesus is divine, but he is not the one "God" himself. (Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament [Oxford University Press, USA; paperback edition, 1993], p. 266)

John's comments immeidiately following that pericope make it clear that he is using Thomas' comments as substantive declarations backing up his own claims regarding Jesus.

Have you read John's comments !?

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


by using the term; the Christ, the Son of God ,John could have backed up his own claims regarding Jesus from anywhere else but Thomas' phrase "my Lord and my God" !!!!

In sum and substance the text may only make sense if it is like that:

John20:26
week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


Accepting it any other ways, would bless you with a passage has more holes in it than a backdoor screen.....

arguing with altered scriptures is futile

The altered ,forged scripture ,eg John 20:28, is easy target ,and doesn't resist the objective study......

[جوري]

Does the Christian Bible ever portray the disciples worshipping Jesus?

No, It doesn't

The one they worshipped ,is the same one whom Jesus prayed to :

Luk 11:1 Now Jesus was praying in a
certain place, and when he finished, one of
his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to
pray, as John taught his disciples.”
Jesus’ answered
Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: "Our Father
in heaven, hallowed be your name.
:10 Your kingdom come, your will
be done, on earth as it is in heaven




In
John 20:28
was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

before any further discussion with you,I need short, direct answer with textual proof....

you should read the texts that follow where Jesus PBUH says 'get thee behind my satan' after Thomas parted with those words 'my lord'.. which any scribe could have re-arranged

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

you should read the texts that follow where Jesus PBUH says 'get thee behind my satan' after Thomas parted with those words 'my lord'.. which any scribe could have re-arranged

:w:

M, you need to take a look at the text again. Jesus makes no such comment following Thomas' declaration. I think you are confusing things from different parts of the Bible with each other.

[جوري]

I didn't say it was right after it, I said in the following passages which any scribe could have rearranged to fit desired meaning!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

I didn't say it was right after it, I said in the following passages which any scribe could have rearranged to fit desired meaning!

all the best

You said:

you Jesus PBUH says 'get thee behind my satan' after Thomas parted with those words 'my lord'..

Now here is everything that comes after Thomas words "my Lord":

John 20

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


John 21

1Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias. It happened this way: 2Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together. 3"I'm going out to fish," Simon Peter told them, and they said, "We'll go with you." So they went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.
4Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.

5He called out to them, "Friends, haven't you any fish?"
"No," they answered.

6He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.

7Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water. 8The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards. 9When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.

10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught."

11Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 13Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

I suggested to you that you look at the text again. It is obvious that you didn't. The line you refer to is not to be found any place after Thomas' statement. It isn't even directed to Thomas. It is directed to Peter and occurs much earlier in the story of Jesus' life. It also is not recorded in the book of John at all, which is where Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord."

M, you often ask good questions. But you also throw around unfounded accusations and claim things are in scripture that are not as you say they are. This is just another of those many cases. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you were merely confusing things from one part of the Bible with another. A simple search you could have done for the phrase you claimed followed Thomas' comment in John, "get thee behind my (sic) satan" on www.biblegateway.com would have turned up Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33 and enabled you to correct yourself. But you continue to hold unwaveringly to a false belief.

[جوري]

Matthew 16:13-19 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some [say] John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He said unto them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said unto him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father who is in heaven.”And I also say unto you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
However, immediately after this Peter is strongly reprimanded and called Satan.
Matthew 16:20-23 Then he charged the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ. From that time Jesus began to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, be killed, and the third day be raised up. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, “Be it far from you, Lord: this shall never be unto you.” But he turned, and said unto Peter, “Get thee behind me, Satan: you art a stumbling-block unto me: for you have in mind not the things of God, but the things of men.”

that the incident is reported differently in Mark:
Mark 8:29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered and said unto him, “You are the Christ.”
And in Luke:
Luke 9:20 And he said unto them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answering said, “The Christ of God.”
Note that Jesus’ question is exactly the same, but Peter’s response is different in all three passages.


easy to re-arrange passages? I think so!
enough said?

[Grace Seeker]

Yep. I told you where it was. And it isn't where you said it was or involving who you said it involved in your post above.

In other words you reported mistaken information.

But to suggest a scribe re-arranged information from one book (the Gospel of John) to another (one of the synoptics)? The Gospel of John wasn't written yet when those gospels were completed. Remember?

[جوري]

Sure, that is exactly what I am suggesting given the that the incident is reported differently in Mark:
Mark 8:29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered and said unto him, “You are the Christ.”
And in Luke:
Luke 9:20 And he said unto them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answering said, “The Christ of God.”
Note that Jesus’ question is exactly the same, but Peter’s response is different in all three passages.

Thus I'll leave it for others to make up their mind.. as to correct content and sequence!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

Sure, that is exactly what I am suggesting given the that the incident is reported differently in Mark:
Mark 8:29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered and said unto him, “You are the Christ.”
And in Luke:
Luke 9:20 And he said unto them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answering said, “The Christ of God.”
Note that Jesus’ question is exactly the same, but Peter’s response is different in all three passages.

Thus I'll leave it for others to make up their mind.. as to correct content and sequence!

all the best

Agreed, I'll leave it for others to make up their mind to what was the correct content and sequence of events in any of the Gospels. And I will once again point out that what you are talking about now is NOT the same thing that you were saying when you posted:

you should read the texts that follow where Jesus PBUH says 'get thee behind my satan' after Thomas parted with those words 'my lord'.. which any scribe could have re-arranged

:w:

But I'll leave it for others to make up their mind as to whether that is from confusion, ignorance, carelessness, or what?

[جوري]

given that we had this discussion before and that I have clarified meaning on multiple posts here including the lack of consensus on your bibles at what actually took place in the form of dialogue, and my above thank you for quoting 'texts that follow' you don't get to put your desired meaning to my thoughts, anymore than you get to put your desired interpretation for the passages. Else anyone an interpret as they desire using Luke or Mark..

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

Else anyone an interpret as they desire using Luke or Mark..

all the best

I'm sorry, I don't understand the meaning of your final sentence. Could you please explain, or state again using other words?

[جوري]

refer to my post with biblical quotes.. it isn't brain surgery!

all the best!

[جوري]

Agreed, I'll leave it for others to make up their mind to what was the correct content and sequence of events in any of the Gospels. And I will once again point out that what you are talking about now is NOT the same thing that you were saying when you posted:

actually it is a last ditch act of desperation on your part, my intended meaning is clear to all and cemented with quotes, just judging from the feedback I have received from members!
There is no need to get belligerent just because Christianity seems in a tizzy with every post that poses some Q on logic!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

refer to my post with biblical quotes.. it isn't brain surgery!

all the best!

"Else anyone an interpret as they desire using Luke or Mark.." isn't an intelligible sentence either. If you don't care to clarify we can just move on.

actually it is a last ditch act of desperation on your part, my intended meaning is clear to all and cemented with quotes, just judging from the feedback I have received from members!
There is no need to get belligerent just because Christianity seems in a tizzy with every post that poses some Q on logic!

all the best

You say you that your intended meaning is clear and imply that you have posted with a degree of logic. They escape me. I have yet to see the connection you are trying to draw between the comment that Thomas makes to Jesus in John 20:28 "My Lord, and my God." and the " "get thee behind me satan" comment that Jesus makes to Peter (recorded in parallel passages in the synoptics: Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33).

You assert that scribes could change things. Yeah, they could. But asserting that they could does not mean that they did.

You offer no evidence to support a conclusion either that they did in the case of the comment made by Thomas (the most plain assertion of your original post on the subject -- "Jesus PBUH says 'get thee behind my satan' after Thomas parted with those words 'my lord'.."), or that there could be any connection between Johanine passage and the passage in the synoptics.

Where is the logic in any of that?

[جوري]

"Else anyone an interpret as they desire using Luke or Mark.." isn't an intelligible sentence either. If you don't care to clarify we can just move on.

Just add a C to an it becomes CAN denotes anyone can interpret on the meaning of Jesus' alleged godhood using Luke or Mark where the passages read differently.. is that clear enough for you to understand?

You say you that your intended meaning is clear and imply that you have posted with a degree of logic. They escape me. I have yet to see the connection you are trying to draw between the comment that Thomas makes to Jesus in John 20:28 "My Lord, and my God." and the " "get thee behind me satan" comment that Jesus makes to Peter (recorded in parallel passages in the synoptics: Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33).

And I have quite explained that it is a very possible scribal rearrangement that is if he indeed called him 'my god'

You assert that scribes could change things. Yeah, they could. But asserting that they could does not mean that they did.

and neither does asserting that Jesus is god when nothing in the bible portrays him as such, including the passages you quote which are at odds with other passages covering the same subject!

Where is the logic in any of that?

lots more logic than a man/god with a mother and a hovering spirit me thinkus!

all the best

[ragdollcat1982]

The Quran says Jesus ascended to heaven just before the crucifixion (or something like that), so unless Allah made Jesus appear to the disciples neither of the explanations is compliant with Islam..

The Jewish historian Joesephus wrote to the trial and execution of Christ. The Romans were meticulous record keepers. I believe that Christ was crucified. Whether or not he was God incarnate is a whole other debate.

[جوري]

the writing of Josephus (100) c.e contain two passages,, the longer one a christian interpolation, for its glowing description is one no orthodox jew would accept -- the second passage has been scrutinized by Schuror, Zahn, von Dobschutz, juster and other scholars, and they regarded the words ''the brother of Jesus, him called christ;; as a further interpolation ...

[Grace Seeker]

And I have quite explained that it is a very possible scribal rearrangement that is if he indeed called him 'my god'

You are dealing with completely unrelated books, to suggest that something said in John was re-arragned from there into one of the synopitics or vice versa is really stretching creduality. It makes more sense to simply say that they fictionalized the whole thing -- after all that's what I suspect you believe anyway. Why call it rearrangement when there is no evidence to support that not only with that verse, but with any other passages connecting John and any of the synoptics?


Rearrangement of one of the synoptic gospels (say Mark) in composing the other two (Matthew and Luke) highly likely. Never disputed that for a minute. But that isn't what you are talking about when you talk about the passage referring to Thomas from John and the passages where Jesus speaks to Peter and calls him Satan. And it certainly isn't what you said in introducing the topic where you implied that the passages about Peter being called satan followed later in the same gospel. I showed that it didn't and you've still completely ignored that you made an error.


Your form of logic boils down to "The Bible says it; I'll believe what I want to believe about it and not believe what I don't want to believe about it; and that settles it." And then you get a few of your fellow doubts to applaude you and you feel vindicated by the process. It is just an opinion statement, one you are entirely entitled to; so, good luck with that, but don't call it logic.

[جوري]

You are dealing with completely unrelated books, to suggest that something said in John was re-arragned from there into one of the synopitics or vice versa is really stretching creduality. It makes more sense to simply say that they fictionalized the whole thing -- after all that's what I suspect you believe anyway. Why call it rearrangement when there is no evidence to support that not only with that verse, but with any other passages connecting John and any of the synoptics?

let me pull a grace seeker... have no idea what 'synopitics' or 'creduality' means? in (I know how you love to be lost in semantics when all else fails) and I just felt it important to point out the error as you were so gracious to do a post ago
now, to play along which books of the bibles should I subscribe to as to not be a heretic your opinion? they describe the same event with different said words one of them denotes the central theme of your worship and the other two don't agree.. you believe it doesn't matter all together since they are not God's word they are 'inspired' by men whose names and authorship is actually quite elusive.. why the re-arrangement in lieu of forgery -- simple, it makes it more in concert with the other two passages!

Rearrangement of one of the synoptic gospels (say Mark) in composing the other two (Matthew and Luke) highly likely. Never disputed that for a minute. But that isn't what you are talking about when you talk about the passage referring to Thomas from John and the passages where Jesus speaks to Peter and calls him Satan. And it certainly isn't what you said in introducing the topic where you implied that the passages about Peter being called satan followed later in the same gospel. I showed that it didn't and you've still completely ignored that you made an error.

I'd love to throw you a bone, frankly I didn't even look at your citations as the majority of what you write is a great deal of fictional nonsense.. the verses are apart, I have said as much and quoted as much, the passage has been laying in my mail box since February, I wouldn't have brought it up at all if I were waiting for you to tell me which verse they follow.. as for my reasoning, well I have already explained in the above reply-- how much longer do you want to protract this? I sense that TV evangelist in you creeping out for some bible thumping!~

Your form of logic boils down to "The Bible says it; I'll believe what I want to believe about it and not believe what I don't want to believe about it; and that settles it." And then you get a few of your fellow doubts to applaude you and you feel vindicated by the process. It is just an opinion statement, one you are entirely entitled to; so, good luck with that, but don't call it logic.

Judging from the number of your fellow Christians who don't subscribe to your brand of Christianity right here on board even, I believe the only one who wishes a 'vindication' is you just seeing how much you labor to put your two cents on every post.. and No, I gain nothing and lose nothing from an approval.. I have always maintained the road to God is a solo journey.. I don't need a sermon of hand clappers and organ musos to get an approval.. and I don't subscribe to if you can't dazzle them with science baffle them with Bull **** either.. the more complicated and convoluted and shrouded in mystery the more fallacious it is...

God is one? or God in a man/spirit/and a father and a mother, self-immolating, dies, forsakes and now akin to water as I see analogies peddled left and right to explain his being and you want to talk logic?.. I think the choice is obvious ( as that is all it comes down to)

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

let me pull a grace seeker... have no idea what 'synopitics' or 'creduality' means? in (I know how you love to be lost in semantics when all else fails) and I just felt it important to point out the error as you were so gracious to do a post ago

Ooops! Thank-you for the corrections. Synoptics was a typo. And while I suspect that you know, perhaps others don't, so it is worth explaining that tern refers to the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke that are so similar as appear to be written from the same point of view.

As for credulity, I really do need to learn how to spell better.


And as for the sentence in your post that I couldn't understand, I wasn't being picky, I really couldn't understand it. And it wasn't just the lack of the "c" in "can". I tried that and still had trouble understanding it until you reworded it later. I know English isn't your native tongue; yet you do so much better than many native speakers anyway that I try to look past the occassion curious grammatical construction if I can at all figure out what you are trying to say. But on that occassion I couldn't figure it out, and that is the only reason why I asked you to restate it.

[Follower]

Basically what I am understanding Gossamer skye to be saying is that it is possible for a scribe to twist the Word of GOD out of context even though there would be other copies spread out among many followers that could be used to show that the text had in fact been twisted.

[جوري]

firstly your bible isn't the word of God, considering you can't even get passages from two bibles to agree (see previous)-- as well the consensus of your churches
and secondly I am sure there were many similar bibles circulating amongst 'followers' in 300AD given the printing press wasn't invented until 1500 something..

I don't even know why you bother write? I think it is prudent you sit and read your church leaders on this forum, they might teach you a thing or two about the art of forming an opinion that has some semblance of normalcy so you are not taking up webspace on utter nonsense!


all the best

[Follower]

AAhh but it is.

Do you understand the concept of GOD inspiring, or let's say revealing a thought to man then allowing man to put it into the human language he is most versed in?

The men in charge of receiving the the revelation of the Holy Bible were learned, literate. They were capable of putting the thoughts given to then by GOD into coherant sentences on their own.

God did not have to give the revelation that is the holy Bible word by word for a man that could not read or write to memorize.

My understanding is that the Quran was revealed word by word for Mohammad to memorize- I say of course it had to be done this way with the Quran. How would an illerate man be able to put just thoughts revealed into a coherant message?

The New Testament writers had many hundreds of other believers that knew the truth of the message, they had seen and spent time with Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15
6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

[جوري]

AAhh but it is.

it is what?

Do you understand the concept of GOD inspiring, or let's say revealing a thought to man then allowing man to put it into the human language he is most versed in?

Not the Christian concept of it, since the gods have inspired men to go against his commandments (Satan inspired) perhaps can you distinguish the difference?

The men in charge of receiving the the revelation of the Holy Bible were learned, literate. They were capable of putting the thoughts given to then by GOD into coherant sentences on their own.

So coherent that no two bibles agree, let alone to the nature of the Divine.. wasn't he water to you just the other day?

God did not have to give the revelation that is the holy Bible word by word for a man that could not read or write to memorize.

I agree, God didn't give it to the folks who wrote your bibles.. glad we see eye to eye on something!

My understanding is that the Quran was revealed word by word for Mohammad to memorize- I say of course it had to be done this way with the Quran. How would an illerate man be able to put just thoughts revealed into a coherant message?

One of the wonders of the inimitable Quran indeed for those who reflect.. there it is.. perfection in lyricism, perfection in dictations, perfection in its commands, perfection in its politics, perfection in its social reforms.

The New Testament writers had many hundreds of other believers that knew the truth of the message, they had seen and spent time with Jesus.

and they are dropping out faster than you can say man/god

1 Corinthians 15
6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

I love stuff and nonsense as much as the next guy

all the best

[Follower]

"since the gods have inspired men to go against his commandments (Satan inspired) perhaps can you distinguish the difference?"

You are correct satan has inspired men to go against the commandments of GOD and yes it is actually simple.

[جوري]

"since the gods have inspired men to go against his commandments (Satan inspired) perhaps can you distinguish the difference?"

You are correct satan has inspired men to go against the commandments of GOD and yes it is actually simple.

I am glad you agree!

all the best

['Abd-al Latif]

For christians;

The message of Jesus was a simple message;

Media Tags are no longer supported

Media Tags are no longer supported

Media Tags are no longer supported

[Follower]

Gossamer skye- I wanted to send you a pm before I was banned, but was unable. it appears I am really good at offending Muslims.

So I will just say it publically- You seem to be a wounded person very much in pain, hurt, angry, etc.

I will add you to my prayers- is there anything specific you might need prayers for?

Hopefully, I will continue to see you on the forum.

[Tony]

Gossamer skye- I wanted to send you a pm before I was banned, but was unable. it appears I am really good at offending Muslims.

So I will just say it publically- You seem to be a wounded person very much in pain, hurt, angry, etc.

I will add you to my prayers- is there anything specific you might need prayers for?

Hopefully, I will continue to see you on the forum.

PEACE BROTHER, just pray that her way is made easy. Its a forum that gets heated by its nature. May Allah make us aware of each others importance here. Peace

[جوري]

Gossamer skye- I wanted to send you a pm before I was banned, but was unable. it appears I am really good at offending Muslims.

So I will just say it publically- You seem to be a wounded person very much in pain, hurt, angry, etc.

I will add you to my prayers- is there anything specific you might need prayers for?

Hopefully, I will continue to see you on the forum.

if you were banned you wouldn't be able to post this no? I simply tired of receiving messages from your ilk so I blocked everyone..
you have an inability to reason, simple logic as pertains to people, comparative religion, the art of a debate escapes you, so how can you possibly pretend to know what I feel?

I'd appreciate if you'd leave me out of your prayers, considering I don't think much comes out of pagan utterances!

all the best

[Tony]

if you were banned you wouldn't be able to post this no?
you have an inability to reason, simple logic as pertains to people, comparative religion, the art of a debate escapes you, so how can you possibly pretend to know what I feel?

I'd appreciate if you'd leave me out of your prayers, considering I don't think much comes out of pagan utterances!

all the best

Peace sister, dont be wound up, our patience brings people to the beauty of:D Allahs grace.

[جوري]

PEACE BROTHER, just pray that her way is made easy. Its a forum that gets heated by its nature. May Allah make us aware of each others importance here. Peace

pls don't request prayers from kuffars akhi, especially ones this disillusioned!

:w:

[جوري]

Peace sister, dont be wound up, our patience brings people to the beauty of:D Allahs grace.

I have no patience for refractory trolls.. thus if you wish to keep a dialogue with him by all means .. when all else fails with this guy, he turns the inner sanctimony from medium to high..

:w:

[Tony]

pls don't request prayers from kuffars akhi, especially ones this disillusioned!

:w:

OK sister, May Allah show him mercy and open his eyes to the truth. Ameen

[جوري]

OK sister, May Allah show him mercy and open his eyes to the truth. Ameen

I can ditto that!

:w:

[Tony]

I can ditto that!

:w:

Thenonce again we win through the empowerment of our deen. Subhan Allah how easy He makes it for us. Loving Allah is so cool eh

[GreyKode]

Gossamer skye- I wanted to send you a pm before I was banned, but was unable. it appears I am really good at offending Muslims.

So I will just say it publically- You seem to be a wounded person very much in pain, hurt, angry, etc.

I will add you to my prayers- is there anything specific you might need prayers for?

Hopefully, I will continue to see you on the forum.

"I WILL YOU ADD YOU TO MY PRAYERS"
HA'HAAAAAAAAAAA LOL.

and he goes further
"is there anything specific"

Sis Gossamer you better not waste this offer.

"public-a-lly";D

[Grace Seeker]

"I WILL YOU ADD YOU TO MY PRAYERS"
HA'HAAAAAAAAAAA LOL.

and he goes further
"is there anything specific"

Sis Gossamer you better not waste this offer.

"public-a-lly";D

Actually, I think that while Follower may not be well understood, that he is sincere in wishing the best for each person here and I expect the offering to pray was equally sincere.

What Follower offered may not be received well when it is a Christain offering prayer to a Muslim, but it is exactly the way a Christian would speak to another Christian if they really were concerned for his/her welfare. Indeed, it is also the way I often speak with Musilm friends and family members with whom I have a personal relationship. They have always appreciated the offer, and frequently actually had something they wanted me to include in my prayers.

So, accept it or not, whichever one is most comfortable with. I just hope that we aren't mocking one another, no matter what faith a person might have. Both Jesus and Muhammad taught us to show more sensitivity to other people than that. To that end, I appreciate both Follower and TKTony's most recent posts in this thread for they exemplify that type of sensitivity.

[Follower]

Worshipping Jesus as a Christian I never picture Jesus in the human shell- goes back to Christians saying Jesus is GOD, but never GOD is Jesus.

If the people worshipping Jesus thought Him merely a man Jesus would have corrected them, actually look when the man runs up to Jesus and falls on his knees. To this man Jesus is simply a human teacher:

Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"

Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 2:11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.

Matthew 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

[Follower]

'Actually, I think that while Follower may not be well understood, that he is sincere in wishing the best for each person here and I expect the offering to pray was equally sincere.'

Yes!!

[Andromeda]

The point is that no one attempted to worship Jesus until after his crucifixion, surely?

[Zafran]

The point is that no one attempted to worship Jesus until after his crucifixion, surely?

intresting point

[Grace Seeker]

The point is that no one attempted to worship Jesus until after his crucifixion, surely?

That depends on whether you accept the Biblical accounts of the Magi who travelled to Bethlehem and, at least according to Matthew, worshipped Jesus as an infant/toddler.

Also Matthew 14 tells of a time during Jesus earthly ministry when he was worshipped:

Matthew 14

22Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24but the boat was already a considerable distance[a] from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.
25During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.

27But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."

28"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."

29"Come," he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"

31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

34When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret. 35And when the men of that place recognized Jesus, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought all their sick to him 36and begged him to let the sick just touch the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed.

And John 9 includes another story in which it is reported that a man Jesus healed of blindness worships Jesus:

John 9

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

8His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" 9Some claimed that he was.
Others said, "No, he only looks like him."
But he himself insisted, "I am the man."

10"How then were your eyes opened?" they demanded.

11He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."

12"Where is this man?" they asked him.
"I don't know," he said.

13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. 15Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."
16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."
But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

17Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened."
The man replied, "He is a prophet."

18The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. 19"Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"

20"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. 21But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."

24A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God," they said. "We know this man is a sinner."

25He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"

26Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?"

27He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"

28Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from."

30The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. 32Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

34To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.

35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."

37Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."

38Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.