PDA

View Full Version : What do muslims think of the holocaust? you lot tell me pwease!



Sahabiyaat
08-19-2008, 04:06 PM
:sl:

As you may or may not know im an odd bodd and like to stick out so when all my classmates choose modules relating to Islam, im more of Jewish fan and usually find myself as the only muslim sitting in a class full of jews :D


and sooooo

My dissertation topic is as follows ; British muslim perspectives on the holocaust(with specific reference to the Tehran Conference and Holocaust Memorial Day.

My supervisor is obviously jewish and says that in all her time teaching she has never supervised such a topic, meaning looking at the holocaust thru muslim eyes.so im the first person to do it :-[


this is what my proposal looks like :-[

TITLE : British Muslim perspectives on the holocaust (with specific reference to the Tehran conference and Holocaust Memorial Day)

Provisional table of contents;

Introduction
PART 1: Holocaust denial and the Muslim world

Chapter 1: What is Holocaust denial?

Sub questions:
What are the reasons behind holocaust denial in general?
• Anti Semitism
• Anti Zionism
In what ways has Muslim attitudes towards the holocaust impacted the muslim world?
• Islam phobia
• International relations

Chapter 2: The Tehran Conference and Holocaust denial

Sub questions:
What are the reasons behind Muslim holocaust denial in particular?
How suspect are the motives for the Tehran conference?
What impact has the Tehran conference had on Arab - Israeli relations?

PART 2: Muslim ‘resistance’ to the institutionalised memory of the Holocaust in Britain

Chapter 3: British Muslim attitudes to Holocaust Memorial Day (2001ff)

Sub questions:
What are the origins, aims and objectives behind holocaust memorial day?
‘Genocide Memorial Day’ .v. uniqueness of Holocaust.
Why is there still resistance by Muslims to the institutionalised memory of the holocaust in Britain?
What effects have resulted from Muslim participation in holocaust memorial day?

Chapter 4: Attitudes to the Holocaust amongst British Muslim Youth

Sub questions:
What are the Muslim attitudes to the inclusion of the Holocaust in the National Curriculum of England and Wales?(drawing upon fieldwork)


Conclusion
Proposals / suggestions in light of information and evidence from research.


I just wanted to know what you lot think of this topic and if you have anything interrsting to add, or just your own opinion.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Fishman
08-19-2008, 06:44 PM
:sl:
Sounds like an interesting topic. I myself believe the official story of the Holocaust completely, and even if six million Jews were not killed then there are still the other victims of the holocaust, the persecution of the Jews before they went to gas chambers and the countless millions of Slavs that were enslaved and massacred to contend with. Its pretty obvious what the intentions of the Nazi Empire were regarding the Jews: their complete and utter elimination from society.

Also, if the Jews weren't killed in the Holocaust, where did they all go? Why are there so many ruined Jewish towns throughout eastern Europe that were abandoned in the '30s and '40s? There is so much evidence for the genocide that Holocaust Denial seems like some kind of mental disorder to me.

Unfortunately there are too many people in the middle east and the Muslim world that have this disorder. This is probably one of the reasons why Islamist and pan-Islamic movements have no credibility with the west, whilst Jewish movements such as zionism do. And it is self-perpetuating: the more that Muslim leaders say illogical things regarding the Holocaust, the more the west is given towards sypmathy with Israel, and the more likely Americans are to say things like 'nuke the ayrabs into glass!' or 'kick the Muslims out the country!'

Its especially illogical given that Arabs are just as semetic as Jews. The Nazis didn't care about religion, if a Jew's grandparents converted to Christianity, they would still try to get them. The Nazis promised great things to the Arabs during the war, but their track record regarding promises is pretty lousy. They promised that they would only use their weapons to defend themselves. They promised that they wouldn't take the rest of Czechoslovakia. They promised that they wouldn't invade the USSR. All of those were broken pretty soon after they were made, so what makes Muslim Nazi-supporters think that they wouldn't have been betrayed as well? Most likely the Arabs would have been treated as the French or the Italians treated them- massacred and treated as second-class citizens.
:w:
Reply

bewildred
08-19-2008, 06:46 PM
Looking for controversy. Ain't ya??????
Reply

Amadeus85
08-19-2008, 06:53 PM
Town near my village had 50% of jewish population in 1939. Now no jew lives there.
My grandpa was telling that when Germans came to this town for jews to get them to the ghetto, jews started to run to the nearby river and many decided to drown there.
Countless towns and villages in nowadays western Belarus and western Ukraine had big populations of jews- 25%,30% or sometimes even 50 %.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Woodrow
08-19-2008, 07:05 PM
Just on a personal note. The only problem I see is that the hype about the holocaust ignores the slaughter done against Muslims. It was not just Jews who suffered, we also did. True by numbers more Jews died in the German atrocity, but virtually 100% of all Muslims in Germany died in it and we get no mention.
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
08-19-2008, 07:15 PM
:wasalamex

Did anyone else notice this:

What are the reasons behind Muslim holocaust denial in particular?
Who says that there's a Muslim denial of Holocaust??? If this means: "All Muslims, or at least a majority of them deny Holocaust," then this is a peak of stupidity!

As for me: no doubt Holocaust did happen, and Islam condemns killing innocent people. Even in a state of war, Muslims don't kill innocent people.

But, there are a few things that annoy me: that Holocaust is misused. It appears to me that crimes happen only because some people believe that, because of Holocaust, they have the right to it. They use Holocaust as a justification! Also, if you deny Holocaust, you may end up behind bars. However, listen to this example: a supposed expert for terrorism, a guy named "dr" Darko Trifunović denies the Srebenica genocide OPENLY and get noooo jail. And what's more: even after the whole world knew that he denied it, and Srebrenica genocide is the greatest tragedy in Europe after WW II, he still got invited to a Berlin Police congress! In the end he didn't appear there because he supposedly got death threats!

So, as for me, I do regret all the innocent people, especially women and children, who got killed by that Nazi pig. But, today, people do not have the right attitude towards it.
Reply

bewildred
08-19-2008, 07:16 PM
I agree with bro Abdu_I_Majid. All Srebreniça negationists won't be sued or even bothered because there's no muslim lobbying.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Just on a personal note. The only problem I see is that the hype about the holocaust ignores the slaughter done against Muslims. It was not just Jews who suffered, we also did. True by numbers more Jews died in the German atrocity, but virtually 100% of all Muslims in Germany died in it and we get no mention.
How many Muslims were killed? Were they killed specifically for being Muslim?
I personally never heard of Muslims being persecuted by the Nazi regime, so you could be right.
Reply

Eric H
08-19-2008, 07:27 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Sahabiyaat;

It seems the Germans have learnt huge lessons since the war, as a nation they seem to carry remorse.

But what of the Jewish Nation, what have they learnt since the Holocaust, surely they would not want to suppress another nation in the way they were suppressed.

And we look at Palestine and the refuge camps the modern Ghettos, how can the Jews condemn the Holocaust when they also appear to be suppressing another nation.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all oppressed people

Eric
Reply

bewildred
08-19-2008, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How many Muslims were killed? Were they killed specifically for being Muslim?
I personally never heard of Muslims being persecuted by the Nazi regime, so you could be right.
Well, for a historical note, all the Algerians who were forced by the French colonial system to fight during WW1 and who remained in France after the war was over, were exterminated in different camps. Compared to the jews who were killed there, the number is minor. But a life is a life. It's priceless. It's unique and no one has the right to reap it but Allah.

Bewildred S.
Reply

Amadeus85
08-19-2008, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Just on a personal note. The only problem I see is that the hype about the holocaust ignores the slaughter done against Muslims. It was not just Jews who suffered, we also did. True by numbers more Jews died in the German atrocity, but virtually 100% of all Muslims in Germany died in it and we get no mention.
Woodrow, are you joking?
How many there were muslims in Germany in 1939? 100? 50?
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2008, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How many Muslims were killed? Were they killed specifically for being Muslim?
I personally never heard of Muslims being persecuted by the Nazi regime, so you could be right.
The actual numbers were small as the Muslim population was small. However, percentage wise it was large. Nearly if not 100% Little is mentioned in history books, you need to look in places like census records, etc.

I am not at home at the moment and it will be a few days before I return home and find my old world atlas books.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by bewildred
Well, for a historical note, all the Algerians who were forced by the French colonial system to fight during WW1 and who remained in France after the war was over, were exterminated in different camps. Compared to the jews who were killed there, the number is minor. But a life is a life. It's priceless. It's unique and no one has the right to reap it but Allah.

Bewildred S.
Were they killed because of their faith?
The Third Reich occupied a lot of areas with a significant Muslim population and didn't exterminate Muslims.
Reply

Bittersteel
08-19-2008, 07:39 PM
Muslims deny the Holocaust->to anger and irritate the Israelis->who they hate for the Israeli-Palestine conflict.
seems like that to me.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The actual numbers were small as the Muslim population was small. However, percentage wise it was large. Nearly if not 100% Little is mentioned in history books, you need to look in places like census records, etc.

I am not at home at the moment and it will be a few days before I return home and find my old world atlas books.
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Woodrow, are you joking?
How many there were muslims in Germany in 1939? 100? 50?
I know Wiki isn't a reputable source of information around here, but this is what its got to say on the issue:
At this time there were 3,000 Muslim in Germany, 300 of whom were of German descent.
By the end of World War II there were only a few hundred Muslims living in Germany.
It does seem the number of Muslims decreased dramatically during the World war II, but how do we know the reason is Nazi persecution, or worse, extermination?
Reply

Amadeus85
08-19-2008, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The actual numbers were small as the Muslim population was small. However, percentage wise it was large. Nearly if not 100% Little is mentioned in history books, you need to look in places like census records, etc.

I am not at home at the moment and it will be a few days before I return home and find my old world atlas books.
Woodrow, my opinion is that you should mind the proportions.
I am pretty sure that during the World War II hundreds of sikhs died in brittish forces. There were even dozens of Maoris from New Zeland who died then fighting in Creta for example.
Many nationalities could say - "World War II wasnt just jewish slaughter".
At least 15 million russians died then,
Its just that we should seperate Holocaust from the battles that took place in that war. concentration camps were like machines for destroying jews, Poles,gypsies.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Woodrow, my opinion is that you should mind the proportions.
I am pretty sure that during the World War II hundreds of sikhs died in brittish forces. There were even dozens of Maoris from New Zeland who died then fighting in Creta for example.
Many nationalities could say - "World War II wasnt just jewish slaughter".
At least 15 million russians died then,
Its just that we should seperate Holocaust from the battles that took place in that war. concentration camps were like machines for destroying jews, Poles,gypsies.
As well as Hitler's political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, and perhaps even Muslims.
Reply

Amadeus85
08-19-2008, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
As well as Hitler's political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, and perhaps even Muslims.
The same what I said to Woodrow, know the proportions, Whatsthepoint(but I know that you know :))
We can not say that Holocaust was all aboout killing muslims and jeahova witnesses with all due respect.
Reply

bewildred
08-19-2008, 07:52 PM
Well, I've always thought that forums offer such an interesting meat for sociologists. The shift from a thread starter to its last post is pretty interesting.

NO ONE in the Holocaust was killed for his religious beliefs. They were exterminated because of their difference.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
The same what I said to Woodrow, know the proportions, Whatsthepoint(but I know that you know :))
We can not say that Holocaust was all aboout killing muslims and jeahova witnesses with all due respect.
Sorry, I thought you missed those out.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by bewildred
Well, I've always thought that forums offer such an interesting meat for sociologists. The shift from a thread starter to its last post is pretty interesting.

NO ONE in the Holocaust was killed for his religious beliefs. They were exterminated because of their difference.
Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted for their religious beliefs, so were numerous Catholics and others, perhaps even Muslims but I doubt it.
Reply

Keltoi
08-19-2008, 08:03 PM
The reasons Jews were singled out more heavily is because the Germans needed someone to blame for their economic stagnation. The truth is obviously that the Germans were forced to pay a dramatic sum of money for their defeat in WWI. However, to the average German the hyper-inflation was crippling and the need for someone to blame for it grew and grew as time went on. What better group to single out than the Jewish population, who often kept to themselves and appeared to be doing better than the average German? Of course Jews were hit just has hard as the rest of Germany, but that doesn't matter.

Gypsies and other minority groups were targeted as well, which would include Muslims to whatever extent they existed in Germany at the time. However, nobody can deny that the Third Reich was fixated on the "Jewish problem", with gyspies, homosexuals, Jehova's Witnesses, Muslims, etc still part of the extermination agenda.
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
08-19-2008, 08:09 PM
People, please do stay on topic. Not because of the topic itself, but because sister needs help with the dissertation topic.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed
People, please do stay on topic. Not because of the topic itself, but because sister needs help with the dissertation topic.
You're right!
As someone already said, the main if not the only reason for the denial of the holocaust by some Muslims is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Reply

Amadeus85
08-19-2008, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You're right!
As someone already said, the main if not the only reason for the denial of the holocaust by some Muslims is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
On the other hand, just few muslims do deny Shoah I think.
I just heard about few examples when muslim kids in France refused to learn about Holocaust in school.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
On the other hand, just few muslims do deny Shoah I think.
I just heard about few examples when muslim kids in France refused to learn about Holocaust in school.
I did say some Muslims deny it.
Here's something even worse...
Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims
Reply

Uthman
08-19-2008, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I haven't actually read the article, but I would take whatever you read in there with a pinch of salt simply on account of the fact that it is the Daily Mail. These British tabloids are known to exaggerate/distort Muslim stories or even make them up completely!
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2008, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know Wiki isn't a reputable source of information around here, but this is what its got to say on the issue:

It does seem the number of Muslims decreased dramatically during the World war II, but how do we know the reason is Nazi persecution, or worse, extermination?
I agree that Wiki is often unreliable and is best used just as a starting point, in need of verification. But,those numbers agree with what I remember reading in the old Atlases. Now the reason for the drop in numbers, while not provable in terms of extermination, does fit well with the laws of the place and time.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
I haven't actually read the article, but I would take whatever you read in there with a pinch of salt simply on account of the fact that it is the Daily Mail. These British tabloids are known to exaggerate/distort Muslim stories or even make them up completely!
Point taken. I actually din't know the daily Mail was a tabloid.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I agree that Wiki is often unreliable and is best used just as a starting point, in need of verification. But,those numbers agree with what I remember reading in the old Atlases. Now the reason for the drop in numbers, while not provable in terms of extermination, does fit well with the laws of the place and time.
Perhaps, but perhaps not.
The Third Reich occupied the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, they deported or killed most of the country's Jewish population, but didn't bother to persecute Muslims in today's Bosnia and Serbia. They also indirectly occupied Northern Africa, the Jews there were persecuted, Muslims obviously not.
so I doubt it German Muslims were exterminated, let alone for being Muslim.
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2008, 08:40 PM
Now to get back to the topic "What do Muslims think of the Holocaust?"

On a personal level I was alive during WWll and have relatives that came across the death camps and returned with stories and pictures. I believe they exist.

While most of the victims were Jewish, many were not. From what read there were 1 milin vitems. 5 milion were not Jewish.

My concern is more emphasis needs to be made about the non-Jewish victims. This was not just a Jewish Holocaust. Many of us that are not Jewish would/could have been victims if we had lived in Germany during that era.

Remember, all of the victims, not just a specific group.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-19-2008, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Now to get back to the topic "What do Muslims think of the Holocaust?"

On a personal level I was alive during WWll and have relatives that came across the death camps and returned with stories and pictures. I believe they exist.

While most of the victims were Jewish, many were not. From what read there were 1 milin vitems. 5 milion were not Jewish.

My concern is more emphasis needs to be made about the non-Jewish victims. This was not just a Jewish Holocaust. Many of us that are not Jewish would/could have been victims if we had lived in Germany during that era.

Remember, all of the victims, not just a specific group.
Yep. In recent years much more emphasis is put on the "forgotten" victims, such as the Roma, Poles, homosexuals, Hitler's political opponents, Jehovah's witnesses etc, which is a good thing.
I don't think the focus on the Jews is a Zionist conspiracy or anything, it just happened due to many factors, but luckily the others are getting attention as well.

In recent news, Vandals Damage Berlin Memorial to Gay Holocaust Victims, which was only inaugurated 3 months ago.
Reply

chacha_jalebi
08-19-2008, 10:14 PM
1st of all we need to understand the holocaust happened, even if people argue about the actual number, it did happen,

and 1st of all chanks to bro woodrows replies, he further proved the point that im gona make, the holocaust wasnt againist the jews, it was againist mankind lol, like russians were killed, gays, jehovah witnesses and many other community peoplings

now why the muslims deny it, 1st not all muslims deny as is shown in this thread, and many other people deny it, like non muslims, you can search on the net, loads of people have even written books were they have "proofs" that the holocaust didnt happen, research into them aswell sister, like many of them were at that tehran conference you mentioned

alsooo on topic, why muslims deny it, not all of them do, and the majority do it, because after the holocaust, many jews were placed into falasteen, and look what happened their, thats why many people say its a conspriracy,

anywaay hope our replies were useful, also the discussion was interestin, maybe someone else can make a seperate thread if they wana have a discussion :D
Reply

north_malaysian
08-20-2008, 03:55 AM
I believe that the Holocaust did happen.

Because if it didnt happen why the Persian and Turkish ambassadors and diplomats frantically gave Turkish and Persian citizenships to many Jews in France just to save the Jews from being sent to the death camps..

Why the Turkish consul in Rhodes saved lots of Jews?

Why Tunisian and Algerian Arabs hid lots of Jews in their villages?

The Muslims that time were saving the Jews...I really believe that they want to save the Jews from Nazis. I really believe that Holocaust is something real..

Even Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss) mentioned that his family perished in the death camps.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-20-2008, 04:19 AM
The following statement by Fikret K. Yurter, President of the National Center of Crimean Tatars, appeared in Birlik, 2(3): 15, 2000. We are posting it here with the list of Crimean Tatar Villages destroyed by the Nazis during World War II. — Ed.

JUSTICE FOR ALL

World War II was a tragic chapter in the history of the world and more so for the people of European nations. Millions were killed, thousands of villages and towns were destroyed, many countries lost their sovereignty, innocent civilians were unjustly deported from their native land and the Crimean Tatars were obliterated as a nation.

The German-Nazi occupation of Crimea during WWII, more than 115 Crimean Tatar villages were burned to the ground and thousands of Crimean Tatars were unjustly killed by the Nazis.* More than 15,000 Crimean Tatars were taken to Germany and Austria for forced labor and to concentration camps, where most perished.

To add further to suffering and injustice, on May 18, 1944, the Soviet Government exiled the entire Crimean Tatar population from their homeland. As a result of this barbaric mass deportation and resettlement, more than 46% of the already reduced Crimean Tatar population perished while their meager properties were confiscated and claimed by local Russians, Ukrainians, and by the immigrating Soviet citizens from other parts of the USSR.

WWII ended 56 years ago. Most war-torn countries rebuilt their ruins, the enslaved nations regained their sovereignty, and the majority of nations and individuals that suffered during the war received billions and billions of dollars in reparations and compensations from the country that provoked and escalated the War into a world war. The deported citizens returned to their homelands. Even the USA paid compensation to the Japanese-Americans who suffered forced detainment during WWII in America.

As a result, the wounds of WWII were almost healed for these nations and for the individuals who greatly suffered during the War. But this sadly, and once again unjustly, was not the case for the Crimean Tatars, who continued to be persecuted and denied their basic human rights to return to and reclaim their lawful place in their ancestral lands of Crimea.

We, the Crimean Tatars, have suffered enough! We now demand that Russia, which was the core of the Soviet Union, issue a reparation resolution which allows us to reclaim our rightful and lawful assets and properties so barbarically and summarily confiscated their hatchetmen during and after the forced and unjust deportation of 1944, which was obviously convenient to their designs.

We also strongly feel that the German Republic (Bundes Republik Deutschland) has a moral and financial obligation to the Crimean Tatars. The Crimean Tatar villages* that were burned to the ground by the Nazis should be rebuild and turned over to the Crimean Tatar nation, and the Crimean Tatars who were unjustly killed by the Nazis, as well as the descendants of 15,000 Crimean Tatars who were taken to German and Austria for forced labor, should receive compensation from these countries, made available directly to the rightful sufferers or their families. -But not through governments!.

Finally, we urge the leadership of the European community to encourage and enforce the compensation process, which we applied for, from Russia and Germany.

Why not equal JUSTICE FOR ALL?

Fikret K. Yurter, President
The National Center of Crimean Tatars
Commack, New York
December 2000
* The following list of Crimean Tatar villages destroyed by the Nazi forces was compiled by Fikret Yurter through interviews with the Crimean Tatars who returned to Crimea from exile in Uzbekistan. The destruction caused by the Nazis is also documented by Alexandr M. Nekrich in a highly informative work on deportation of nationalities, The Punished People. He quotes Dr. Edige Kirimal: "Toward the end of occupation, in December 1943 and January 1944, the Germans burned down and destroyed 128 mountain villages in the southern and northern Crimea. In January 1944 the inhabitants of Argin, Baksan, and Kazal - the Crimean Tatar villages burned to the ground by the Germans - together with the inhabitants of Efendikoi, Kutur, and Neiman - Russian villages similarly burned - fled into the hills to join the partisans." (pp.23-24)
Crimean Tatar Villages
Destroyed by the Nazis During World War II
A - GH - PS - ZAcibulatHocasalaSahmirzaArginKamisliSavatkaArmutl ukKandorSelenArpatKaralezSirli KöprüAsagi ÇorgunKarasubasiSoyun-AciAsagi TayganKalintayStar-SuliAvci KöyKaymakStilaAyanKaynavutSuriAylanmaKesek-KaratukSuvuksuAytodorKetautSuyu-AciBadrakKermençikTamaBahçeliKilsadikTaskoraBahs anKislavTatar-KöyBakatasKizilkobaTatar-OsmanBakesKobaziTavbadrakBaydarKokközTavdayirBesu yKokluzTav-EliBiyesalaKonratTav-KipçakBoraKoktasTemirciBuruncaKos DegirmenTeskonduBüyük-LakaKöprülü KöyTers-KonduBüyük-OnlarKovusToban-EliBüyük-ÖzenbasKoyüsTotay-KöyBüyük-YanköyKozi-EliUlakliCafer-BerdiKüçük ÖzenbasUlu-ÖzenCansarayKuçkaUlusalaÇardakliKutlakUrkustaÇ avkeKutlukUppaÇerkez-KermenKumüslükUppi-KöyÇirmalikMaltoyVeyrantÇokrakMambet-UlanVeyratÇorgunMangusYanci-KöyÇorgun-YukariMamut-SultanYanibardakÇormalikMolbayYani-KöyDeren AyirNavdayirYeni-SalaEkitasOrtalanYeni-SarayElbuzluPayli-YarYukari TayganEskisarayPiçkiYüzümlükFotsala

Source: http://www.iccrimea.org/birlik.html
Reply

Eric H
08-20-2008, 07:09 AM
Greetings and peace be with you all

When one person is killed unjustly, it can leave behind angry family and friends seeking justice.

When six million people are killed unjustly it can leave behind many more angry people seeking justice.

The greatest solution open to us is to forgive, and not to pass on anger to another generation; by feeding more killings and more injustice.

Mercy and forgiveness come from God, as individuals we find it extremely hard to forgive.

A powerful story of forgiveness.

Ghazi Briegeith & Rami Elhanan
Ghazi Briegeith, a Palestinian electrician living in Hebron, and Rami Elhanan, an Israeli graphic designer from Jerusalem, met through the Parents’ Circle – a group of bereaved families supporting reconciliation and peace. Ghazi’s brother was killed at a checkpoint in 2000. Rami’s 14-year-old daughter was the victim of a suicide bombing in Jerusalem in 1997.

Rami
I was on my way to the airport when my wife called and told me Smadar was missing. When something like this happens a cold hand grabs your heart. You rush between friends’ houses and hospitals, then eventually you find yourself in the morgue and you see a sight you’ll never forget for the rest of your life. From that moment you are a new person. Everything is different.

At first I was tormented with anger and grief; I wanted revenge, to get even. But we are people – not animals! I asked myself, “Will killing someone else release my pain?” Of course not. It was clear to my wife and I that the blame rests with the occupation. The suicide bomber was a victim just like my daughter, grown crazy out of anger and shame.

I don’t forgive and I don’t forget, but when this happened to my daughter I had to ask myself whether I’d contributed in any way. The answer was that I had – my people had, for ruling, dominating and oppressing three-and-a-half million Palestinians for 35 years. It is a sin and you pay for sins.

At first I foolishly thought I could just go back to work and resume my life, but the pain was unbearable. Then, a year later, I met Ytzhak Frankenthal, the founder of the Parents’ Circle. He was wearing a ‘kippah’ on his head, and immediately I stereotyped him as an ‘Arab eater’. Even when he told me his personal story, and about the reconciliation work of Parents’ Circle, I was very cynical.

He invited me to a meeting, and reluctantly I went along, just to take a look. I saw buses full of people, among them legends – parents who had lost kids in wars and who still wanted peace. I saw an Arab lady in a long black dress. On her chest was a picture of a six-year-old kid. A singer sang in Hebrew and Arabic, and suddenly I was hit by lightening. I can’t explain it, but from that moment I had a reason to get up in the morning again.

Since then my work with the Parents’ Circle has become the centre of my life, a sacred mission. If we – Ghazi and I – can talk and stand together after paying the highest price possible, then anyone can. There is a high wall between our two nations, a wall of hate and fear. Someone needs to put cracks in the wall in order for it to fall down.

Ghazi
You need a ticket to belong to the Parents’ Circle – the ticket is to have lost a member of your close family. This means Rami and I are brothers of pain.

My own brother was killed in 2000 at the beginning of the Intifada. I’d been with him just minutes before he died. As I was walking home I heard a shot. I found out later he’d been stopped and searched at the checkpoint. When he protested, the soldier shouted, “Shut your mouth, or I’ll shoot you, you son of a *****,” to which my brother replied: “YOU son of a *****!” So the soldier shot him. It was a machine gun in a kid’s hand. Sometimes the power makes them mad.

At first I was completely out of my mind – crazy with grief. There should be no forgiveness for the killers of innocents, and yet even then I saw the soldier as a victim of the occupation just as my brother was, just as I am still. But forgiveness is a very personal thing. Even if I choose to forgive the person who killed my brother, I can’t force my brother’s kids to forgive. But I can show them that far more valuable than a violent response, is opening your heart to reconciliation and peace. I can show them that opening a new page is their only hope of living a better life than ours.

The Palestinians have nothing left to lose, so the Israelis must realise that they are destroying their own nation by causing so much suffering. You don’t need to love each other to build a bridge between the two nations: you need respect. If I can stand with my Jewish brother Rami, respecting him as he respects me, then there is hope.
Many more stories of forgiveness here http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/stories/eric-lomax
In the spirit of praying to for peace on Earth

Eric
Reply

Sahabiyaat
08-20-2008, 01:36 PM
:sl::bravo:

wow JzakAllah Khair i dont know how to express my gratitude at you wonderfully academic discussions, keep um coming, im finding it very interesting reading.


coming back to my dissertation, the original dissertation proposal didnt look at all like the one ive given you, this one has been copmpletely ripped apart by my supervisor, and she put in the titles like Muslim 'Resistance' to the insitutionalised memoy of the holocaust.

the proposal actually looks like i want to grill muslims, but thas only because my jewish supervisor doesnt let me get a word in duing our discussions together, and tries putting words into my mouth..she doesnt let me say a word about the palestine-israel conflict, saying its a complex matter worthy of a phd on its own, this is the excuses shes uses to stop me having any debate with her which might highlight israels atrocities towards the palestinians and this frustartes me SO much!!!!


i have this feeling if i dont follow her trail of though.....im not going to be getting the best marks

ive been advised to being the dissertation with the follwoing part ;

PART 2: Muslim ‘resistance’ to the institutionalised memory of the Holocaust in Britain

Chapter 3: British Muslim attitudes to Holocaust Memorial Day (2001ff)

Sub questions:

What are the origins, aims and objectives behind holocaust memorial day?
‘Genocide Memorial Day’ .v. uniqueness of Holocaust.
Why is there still resistance by Muslims to the institutionalised memory of the holocaust in Britain?
What effects have resulted from Muslim participation in holocaust memorial day?


Holocaust memorial day.........what are your thoughts? , should the holocaust be considered unique simply because the jews feel hitler was out to exterminate them completely and only them? what do you think of an alll inclusive genocide memorial day?, how has the mcb participating in hmd changed anything for the muslims?
Reply

The_Prince
08-20-2008, 02:25 PM
my opinion, stop living in the past and live for today. we keep going about this holocaust while the Jews of today are killing thousands of Muslims and stealing their land. people only bring the holocaust up now to excuse what the Jews in Israel are doing, so they cant be critisized or fought back. and hey whats the point you have a problem that some teachers dont teach the holocaust because it may offend Muslims, then how about you start teaching the students in Europe and ISRAEL how the Jews kicked the Palestinians out, ohhhhhhh wait they dont because that will offend the Jews and the Jews themselves deny it. isnt it funny the Jewish zionist criminals have a right to deny the existence of a Palestinian nation, saying we never existed which is funny as my grandparents were on the land while joe shmo was somewhere in brooklyn or poland. why do Jews have a right to deny the crimes they did such as kicking Palestinians out of their homes and demolishing entire villages, and we cant say the holocaust didnt happen?

infact the irony is that some of the none Muslim forum members on here who will kill themselves if they hear a Muslim denying the holocaust will not think twice about saying nooooooo the Palestinians were never kicked out, didnt get their villages destroyed, thats a myth!

so in conclusion i could really care less about the holocaust, right now my people are being oppressed by the Jews, and have been for the past 50 years, and these same Jews even deny my culture exists, and deny my familly were ever on the land.
Reply

aamirsaab
08-20-2008, 02:32 PM
:sl:
My view: it happend and it should never happen again. Mass genocide should always be condemned - by everyone! We're all capable of respecting one another, yet as a species, we chose to kill each other.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-20-2008, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
my opinion, stop living in the past and live for today. we keep going about this holocaust while the Jews of today are killing thousands of Muslims and stealing their land. people only bring the holocaust up now to excuse what the Jews in Israel are doing, so they cant be critisized or fought back. and hey whats the point you have a problem that some teachers dont teach the holocaust because it may offend Muslims, then how about you start teaching the students in Europe and ISRAEL how the Jews kicked the Palestinians out, ohhhhhhh wait they dont because that will offend the Jews and the Jews themselves deny it. isnt it funny the Jewish zionist criminals have a right to deny the existence of a Palestinian nation, saying we never existed which is funny as my grandparents were on the land while joe shmo was somewhere in brooklyn or poland. why do Jews have a right to deny the crimes they did such as kicking Palestinians out of their homes and demolishing entire villages, and we cant say the holocaust didnt happen?

infact the irony is that some of the none Muslim forum members on here who will kill themselves if they hear a Muslim denying the holocaust will not think twice about saying nooooooo the Palestinians were never kicked out, didnt get their villages destroyed, thats a myth!
I'm certainly not one of those non-Muslims. I understand the great injustice that hit the Palestinians, I don't really care whether you're a nation or not, you're people like everyone else and your land was unrightfully stolen from you. And yes, the Israeli Palestinian conflict is taught in schools, I guess it depends on the teacher whether its taught objectively or subjectively. So holocaust should be taught as well, if Muslims fell offended its their problem the same way it's Jews' problem if they feel offended if Israeli crimes are mentioned.
And I do find it wrong that Israeli atrocities are justified with the holocaust.
Besides Israelis don't deny that Palestinians occupied the land before the Jews came, nor do they deny the crimes, its just that they have a different opinion on whether they have the right to (re)take the land and who or what cause their crimes against Palestinians.
So stop assuming what I or other people think.
Reply

manaal
08-20-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How many Muslims were killed? Were they killed specifically for being Muslim?
I personally never heard of Muslims being persecuted by the Nazi regime, so you could be right.

Its not just the Muslims either. No body knows out the Gypsy (Roma) persecution during that time. I know because my Dad told me, because he saw it on a documentary on tv. Google it.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-20-2008, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by manaal
Its not just the Muslims either. No body knows out the Gypsy (Roma) persecution during that time. I know because my Dad told me, because he saw it on a documentary on tv. Google it.
I know that Roma have been persecuted and killed in mass numbers, its a well known fact. It's not a well known fact that Muslims were persecuted though, so I'd like to see some evidence for it. Its true the number of Muslims in Germany decreased during the war but that is not a proof enough of their persecution.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2008, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know that Roma have been persecuted and killed in mass numbers, its a well known fact. It's not a well known fact that Muslims were persecuted though, so I'd like to see some evidence for it. Its true the number of Muslims in Germany decreased during the war but that is not a proof enough of their persecution.
I dont know about Muslims in Germany. But 15,000 Crimean Tatar Muslims were sent to the death camps too...

Many Romas living in Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia are Muslims... they might be killed too..

Plus many Muslims fight with the Soviet army.... they might be part of the POWs sent to the death camps...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-21-2008, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I dont know about Muslims in Germany. But 15,000 Crimean Tatar Muslims were sent to the death camps too...

Many Romas living in Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia are Muslims... they might be killed too..

Plus many Muslims fight with the Soviet army.... they might be part of the POWs sent to the death camps...
The questions is whether anyone was killed specifically because of their Islamic faith. Muslim Roma were killed because of their skin not faith, the same with Tatars, and Soviet soldiers were killed for being soliders.
Reply

Fishman
08-21-2008, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The questions is whether anyone was killed specifically because of their Islamic faith. Muslim Roma were killed because of their skin not faith, the same with Tatars, and Soviet soldiers were killed for being soliders.
The Nazis didn't really care what religion you where as long as it didn't stop you fighting/working for the Reich. The Jews weren't killed for their religion either.

Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I dont know about Muslims in Germany. But 15,000 Crimean Tatar Muslims were sent to the death camps too...

Many Romas living in Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia are Muslims... they might be killed too..

Plus many Muslims fight with the Soviet army.... they might be part of the POWs sent to the death camps...
:sl:
The Soviet Union's Islamic authorities actually declared Jihad on Germany, but probably only because the government told them to.
:w:
Reply

Whatsthepoint
08-21-2008, 09:12 PM
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Fishman
The Nazis didn't really care what religion you where as long as it didn't stop you fighting/working for the Reich. The Jews weren't killed for their religion either.
You're right, they were killed for their ethnicity, Jews are both a religious and an ethic group.
Well, that's basically what I'm trying to say. The Nazis didn't kill Muslims for being Muslims.
They did persecute Jehovah's witnesses, mainly for the reasons you pointed out and also a large part of the catholic clergy, especially in Poland.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-22-2008, 01:27 AM
Of course, the Nazis didnt kill the Muslims because of their religious background.... in fact there were Muslims in both sides.

Like Woodrow said, the Holocaust should not be exclusively for the Jews...

..and there were Muslim victims and the most important thing is that the Muslims played important roles in saving many Jews from the Holocaust which should be highlighted...so no Muslims can deny holocaust...
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-15-2011, 02:11 AM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-21-2010, 02:35 AM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-11-2006, 04:23 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!