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usman2468
08-21-2008, 01:11 PM
I wanted to know whether suicide attacks are allowed in Islam against an enemy of Islam, like the US Government, if there is no other alternative available to defeat the enemy.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-21-2008, 01:16 PM
never attack intending to kill yourself

you can fight a hopeless battle thinking 99.9% you may die, but you should always strive to live on and fight for Allaah whilst hoping for martyrdome.


finally ASK A SCHOLAR
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------
08-21-2008, 02:49 PM
:salamext:

Bro suicide is haraam, Allaah tells us in the Qur'aan not to kill ourselves.

Read this article for more information inshaAllaah;

Suicide [According to Qur'aan and Sunnah]
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usman2468
08-22-2008, 05:06 AM
Killing oneself is haram. But...

Suppose you are in a battlefield and are losing hopelessly. You are probably going to be defeated and die. Wont it be better to blow yourself up taking many of the enemies rather then dying without killing any of them.

I know that in the war Pakistan fought against India in 1965, a large number of Muslim teenagers wrapped explosives around themselves and lied down in front of Indian tanks.

I wanted to know whether there is a Hadith or a Quranic verse forbidding suicide attacks. Not plain suicide in which you kill yourself for no purpose.

I may have...well...sounded an extremist but in reality these are questions not only disturbing my mind but minds of many muslims.
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sister herb
08-22-2008, 07:09 AM
:sl:

I would like to remind that those groups/people whose make those attacks don´t think and feel them as "suicides" but martydom attacks. I think there is some difference if we are thinking is suicide allowed but is martydom allowed by Islam.

:-[ Just my own opinion...
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Abdu-l-Majeed
08-22-2008, 07:22 AM
:wasalamex

http://www.fatwa-online.com/download...tterrorism.chm
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ayan333
08-22-2008, 08:08 AM
:sl:

i read or i think it was a lecture that i listen to that sthis and gave a great answer so InshALLAH ill try find it and post it InshALLAH,make take a while but ill InhsALLAH

:w:
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Faye
08-22-2008, 08:42 AM
Actually I've wondered about this issue for a while too, but I haven't been able to find any complete answer on it.

The people who do it say that it is the only effective form of jihad left, that it is not suicide, but martyrdom.

The ulama I have talked to on the matter, say that suicide bombing is not allowed in Pakistan, and if you are somewhere else, ask the ulema of that region who know the situation better.

They also say that while it is wrong for us, it may not be wrong for them in their situation, and Allah knows best.

I find this last statement curiously close to the statement made about suicides, that we are not in their situation and cannot know its details, and only Allah knows whether they are jannati or jahannami.

And, I can't make myself trust the ulema of the people who say it is right, as they also justify setting up bombs in supermarkets and schools, definitely not military targets by anybody's definition.


So basically, I don't know, and don't know who to ask.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-22-2008, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by usman2468
Killing oneself is haram. But...

Suppose you are in a battlefield and are losing hopelessly. You are probably going to be defeated and die. Wont it be better to blow yourself up taking many of the enemies rather then dying without killing any of them.

I know that in the war Pakistan fought against India in 1965, a large number of Muslim teenagers wrapped explosives around themselves and lied down in front of Indian tanks.

I wanted to know whether there is a Hadith or a Quranic verse forbidding suicide attacks. Not plain suicide in which you kill yourself for no purpose.

I may have...well...sounded an extremist but in reality these are questions not only disturbing my mind but minds of many muslims.

what about the collateral damage?
you may hurt the innocent without knowing

obviously this depends on where you do ti.

but as i said before, never kill yourself....
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aamirsaab
08-22-2008, 09:48 AM
:sl:
The Quran is clear on the matter of suicide: do not commit this act.

We are also told to strive during hardships - so even in extreme conditions such as war, suicide would still be haram (given what is written in the Quran).

Allah knows best.
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Keltoi
08-22-2008, 09:51 AM
The vast majority of suicide attacks are against civilian targets. Unless soldiers are just hanging out at a checkpoint it isn't likely you are going to get close enough to do them any damage. Many have tried with car bombs and have simply been shot up for not stopping when told. It is a very ineffective way to fight a military force. Killing women and children, which most suicide attackers do, is more effective and more easily done.
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waji
08-22-2008, 01:49 PM
:sl:

it's My opinion you all can differ with it
Humans have good and bad things in them and they do things according to their thinking
Devil is there to distract them from good
Things can be good and bad it will be decide how and when u use them
One Alim gaved the fatwa against the music but he uses ipod because he doesn't use it for music but for hearing recitations and lectures of other Alims
so ipod is good but bad for music
Some times alot of knowledge can be dangerous as devil can take us away from islam or good path
so the suicide attacks in any living areas or killing an innocent person is Haram
But
in War it is allowed

:w:
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bewildred
08-22-2008, 02:19 PM
Suicide bombing=Martyrdom????? I've never heard such ****** . Suicide is Haram. Killing innocent people is Haram. If those pawns want to die for Allah, why don't they do it the good ole way, I mean the BRAVE way? They go and face their ennemies and not try to stab in the back. I also find it disgusting when a channel asks people if they are with or against suicide bombing in Maghreb.
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usman2468
08-22-2008, 06:53 PM
I visited the following link as abdu-l-Majid advised and thanks a lot brother. It sorted out many of my queries.

but...

Like the example I gave before, that in the war between Pakistan and India in 1965 Pakistani teenagers wrapped bombs around themselves and lied in front of Indian tanks because otherwise these tanks would have wrecked havoc in Pakistan and killed many muslims. After all, Pakistan army was not as strong as the Indians'. Is this allowed or not?
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Ansariyah
08-22-2008, 07:09 PM
Wats suicide to u isnt suicide to someone else. Those who do it "dont consider it suicide" and arent doing it for that reason. So it all comes down to "Niyah" Intention which is something that is concealed from us (we cant read the hearts). Something only Allah SWT knows. So none of u really have any right to judge nobody.

bewildered u dont seem that brave to me.
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bewildred
08-22-2008, 07:20 PM
Just picture this:

A school boy, he is 7. He is leaving school. There's a guy who thinks he's BRAVE. He explodes the car. The family of the boy doesn't have a body to burry. There's a grave, in it there's maybe a few fingers. When this boy happens to be your brother......Please come and face me and tell me between the eyes that Allah approves this sicko's act.
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Woodrow
08-22-2008, 07:23 PM
Let us look at the Kamikaze Pilots of WWll. Those were devout Shinto Japanese Suicide pilots who flew their explosive filled planes into American Ships. It was a last ditch effort to keep America from launching an attack on the Japanese mainland. Where they martyrs or suicides? Was it right for them to do so? Did they achieve martyrdom?

If it was wrong for them to do so, how can we justify doing similar as Muslms.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-22-2008, 08:01 PM
bewildred everyone knows suiciding is dumb dangerous and dispicible
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Amadeus85
08-22-2008, 08:18 PM
My opinion about muslims who commit suiide attacks.

First of all their actions are bad for worldwide muslims. Nowadays most suicide attacks happen in muslim world, not in christian world. Algeria, Pakistan, Turkey, Kashmir, southern Thailand,parts of India. Suicide bombers are mostly killing other muslims. They feed the hindu nationalism against indian muslims.They bring justification to Thailand or Philipinnes to act harshly in muslim dominated areas. Hamas and other such groups are also partly responsible for the rise of islamophobia from France to Australia.
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Amadeus85
08-22-2008, 08:19 PM
My opinion about muslims who commit suiide attacks.

First of all their actions are bad for worldwide muslims. Nowadays most suicide attacks happen in muslim world, not in christian world. Algeria, Pakistan, Turkey, Kashmir, southern Thailand,parts of India. Suicide bombers are mostly killing other muslims. They feed the hindu nationalism against indian muslims.They bring justification to Thailand or Philipinnes to act harshly in muslim dominated areas. Hamas and other such groups are also partly responsible for the rise of islamophobia from France to Australia.
Reply

abs
08-22-2008, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by bewildred
Suicide bombing=Martyrdom????? I've never heard such ****** . Suicide is Haram. Killing innocent people is Haram. If those pawns want to die for Allah, why don't they do it the good ole way, I mean the BRAVE way? They go and face their ennemies and not try to stab in the back. I also find it disgusting when a channel asks people if they are with or against suicide bombing in Maghreb.
hmmmmm enuf of the *********************
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Ansariyah
08-22-2008, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by bewildred
Just picture this:

A school boy, he is 7. He is leaving school. There's a guy who thinks he's BRAVE. He explodes the car. The family of the boy doesn't have a body to burry. There's a grave, in it there's maybe a few fingers. When this boy happens to be your brother......Please come and face me and tell me between the eyes that Allah approves this sicko's act.
Wat about the Muslim kid who barely reached 6 who gets shot in the heart by the isreali soldier? You thinks that Brave? Wat about the mother whos left childless and widowed within the blink of an eye? You think thats Brave? Wat about the lil girl in her Hijab who's found dead because of an Israeli missle? I mean only her head rolled to the side with the look fear she witnessed be4 she died? the rest of her body missing. Brave?

I will face you, but I bet you, that u wudnt out live nor be able to face the hardship that those whom u mock nd call ""sickos" face generation after generation after generation.

I wonder what wud become out of you, if u wudve lived their lives...
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Fishman
08-23-2008, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
Wat about the Muslim kid who barely reached 6 who gets shot in the heart by the isreali soldier? You thinks that Brave? Wat about the mother whos left childless and widowed within the blink of an eye? You think thats Brave? Wat about the lil girl in her Hijab who's found dead because of an Israeli missle? I mean only her head rolled to the side with the look fear she witnessed be4 she died? the rest of her body missing. Brave?

I will face you, but I bet you, that u wudnt out live nor be able to face the hardship that those whom u mock nd call ""sickos" face generation after generation after generation.

I wonder what wud become out of you, if u wudve lived their lives...
:sl:
Just because somebody doesn't agree with sucide bombings doesn't mean that they support Israeli attrocities instead...
:w:
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Eric H
08-23-2008, 12:24 AM
Greetings and peace be with you aamirsaab, thank you for some very wise advice.

We are also told to strive during hardships - so even in extreme conditions such as war, suicide would still be haram (given what is written in the Quran).

Allah knows best.
Very profound, extreme striving leads to forgiveness, you can read the story of two victims of killings below.......
Ghazi Briegeith & Rami Elhanan
Ghazi Briegeith, a Palestinian electrician living in Hebron, and Rami Elhanan, an Israeli graphic designer from Jerusalem, met through the Parents’ Circle – a group of bereaved families supporting reconciliation and peace. Ghazi’s brother was killed at a checkpoint in 2000. Rami’s 14-year-old daughter was the victim of a suicide bombing in Jerusalem in 1997.

Rami
I was on my way to the airport when my wife called and told me Smadar was missing. When something like this happens a cold hand grabs your heart. You rush between friends’ houses and hospitals, then eventually you find yourself in the morgue and you see a sight you’ll never forget for the rest of your life. From that moment you are a new person. Everything is different.

At first I was tormented with anger and grief; I wanted revenge, to get even. But we are people – not animals! I asked myself, “Will killing someone else release my pain?” Of course not. It was clear to my wife and I that the blame rests with the occupation. The suicide bomber was a victim just like my daughter, grown crazy out of anger and shame.

I don’t forgive and I don’t forget, but when this happened to my daughter I had to ask myself whether I’d contributed in any way. The answer was that I had – my people had, for ruling, dominating and oppressing three-and-a-half million Palestinians for 35 years. It is a sin and you pay for sins.

At first I foolishly thought I could just go back to work and resume my life, but the pain was unbearable. Then, a year later, I met Ytzhak Frankenthal, the founder of the Parents’ Circle. He was wearing a ‘kippah’ on his head, and immediately I stereotyped him as an ‘Arab eater’. Even when he told me his personal story, and about the reconciliation work of Parents’ Circle, I was very cynical.

He invited me to a meeting, and reluctantly I went along, just to take a look. I saw buses full of people, among them legends – parents who had lost kids in wars and who still wanted peace. I saw an Arab lady in a long black dress. On her chest was a picture of a six-year-old kid. A singer sang in Hebrew and Arabic, and suddenly I was hit by lightening. I can’t explain it, but from that moment I had a reason to get up in the morning again.

Since then my work with the Parents’ Circle has become the centre of my life, a sacred mission. If we – Ghazi and I – can talk and stand together after paying the highest price possible, then anyone can. There is a high wall between our two nations, a wall of hate and fear. Someone needs to put cracks in the wall in order for it to fall down.

Ghazi
You need a ticket to belong to the Parents’ Circle – the ticket is to have lost a member of your close family. This means Rami and I are brothers of pain.

My own brother was killed in 2000 at the beginning of the Intifada. I’d been with him just minutes before he died. As I was walking home I heard a shot. I found out later he’d been stopped and searched at the checkpoint. When he protested, the soldier shouted, “Shut your mouth, or I’ll shoot you, you son of a *****,” to which my brother replied: “YOU son of a *****!” So the soldier shot him. It was a machine gun in a kid’s hand. Sometimes the power makes them mad.

At first I was completely out of my mind – crazy with grief. There should be no forgiveness for the killers of innocents, and yet even then I saw the soldier as a victim of the occupation just as my brother was, just as I am still. But forgiveness is a very personal thing. Even if I choose to forgive the person who killed my brother, I can’t force my brother’s kids to forgive. But I can show them that far more valuable than a violent response, is opening your heart to reconciliation and peace. I can show them that opening a new page is their only hope of living a better life than ours.

The Palestinians have nothing left to lose, so the Israelis must realise that they are destroying their own nation by causing so much suffering. You don’t need to love each other to build a bridge between the two nations: you need respect. If I can stand with my Jewish brother Rami, respecting him as he respects me, then there is hope.
In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God

Eric
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Woodrow
08-23-2008, 05:00 AM
From a military viewpoint suicide bombing is very good news to the adversary. It is an indication that the opponant has lost all hope and is using the last possible means to hold onto some strength. It is counterproductive as it is the best and most dedicated person who elects to be a suicide bomber, resulting in a very low cost means of reducing the number of elite soldiers.

War is expensive, it costs money and man power to kill an opposing soldier. If they can be driven to the point of using suicide bombers, it saves money and serves as a very effective means of removing the best soldiers from the battlefield.

Just my opinion and belief that suicide bombing is not only wrong, it also benefits the enemy. A suicide bomber not only removes himself from further use to his cause, he quite often also kills several other supporters of the same cause.
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Eric H
08-23-2008, 06:12 AM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

Suicide bombing is one thing that turns many non-Muslims against Islam.

Many people suffer injustice.

If we could only leave it to God to sort out justice, we would have peace on Earth.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth
Eric
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bewildred
08-23-2008, 07:08 AM
Uh, the boy I'm talking about was a little muslim who grew up in a very religious family in the north of Africa.
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usman2468
08-23-2008, 08:15 AM
Aaron85, U BETTER STOP TALKING ILL OF KASHMIRI MUSLIMS:raging::raging::raging::raging::raging::ra ging:. Personally I have heard only a few reports of suicide attacks there. If u knew even 0.0001% of the Indians' state terrorism in Kashmir u would understand why the want to blow themselves up to prevent the Indians from further violation of human rights and save a lot of innocent lives.
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Muezzin
08-23-2008, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let us look at the Kamikaze Pilots of WWll. Those were devout Shinto Japanese Suicide pilots who flew their explosive filled planes into American Ships. It was a last ditch effort to keep America from launching an attack on the Japanese mainland. Where they martyrs or suicides? Was it right for them to do so? Did they achieve martyrdom?

If it was wrong for them to do so, how can we justify doing similar as Muslms.
Kamikaze pilots had two things going for them.

1) Targeting military vehicles rather than civilans

2) 'Kamikaaaazeeeeeeeeeeeeee' just sounds hilarious

Suicide bombers just blow the living hell out of everything, including civilians and themselves. In fact, they always tend to target civilians. All kinds of wrong.
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------
08-24-2008, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by usman2468
Killing oneself is haram. But...

Suppose you are in a battlefield and are losing hopelessly. You are probably going to be defeated and die. Wont it be better to blow yourself up taking many of the enemies rather then dying without killing any of them.

I know that in the war Pakistan fought against India in 1965, a large number of Muslim teenagers wrapped explosives around themselves and lied down in front of Indian tanks.

I wanted to know whether there is a Hadith or a Quranic verse forbidding suicide attacks. Not plain suicide in which you kill yourself for no purpose.

I may have...well...sounded an extremist but in reality these are questions not only disturbing my mind but minds of many muslims.

I am not a scholar, but I find the bold bit very silly :-\
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usman2468
08-24-2008, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by - Serene -
I am not a scholar, but I find the bold bit very silly :-\
I too now. After visiting the following link posted by someone in this thread
http://www.fatwa-online.com/download...tterrorism.chm
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barney
08-24-2008, 05:39 PM
What is this "only option availible"?

What is wrong with conventianal warfare? Fighting with a rifle and RPG?
Suicide attacks are the cowards way of fighting, and militarily stupid. You always take one casulty.

Just because fighting against western armies (apart from the french, who cant fight) it frequently costs 20 or 40 insurgants lives to actually hit a soldier in conventianal fighting isnt any excuse for this , shall we say, unmanly way of bloodshed.

There are many ways of asymmetrical war without suicide bombers. IED's, snipers, attacking checkpoints and outposts. What good is strapping explosives to a mentally retarded kid and shoving them into a marketplace?
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usman2468
08-24-2008, 05:59 PM
Though I realize that suicide attacks are stupid after reading some articles...

But barney, snipers, attacking checkpoints, etc. Well, you should that this is not that easy. There is too much difference between the military powers.

One have bombers and helicopters while the other don't
One have smart bombs while the other don't
One have high tech machine guns while other don't
One have highly trained and specialized personals while the other don't
One have satellite for spying while the other don't.
One have tanks while the other don't
One have hundreds of APCs while the other have few
One have continuous food and medical supply while the other don't

I could go on...and on...and on...
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aadil77
08-24-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by usman2468
I wanted to know whether suicide attacks are allowed in Islam against an enemy of Islam, like the US Government, if there is no other alternative available to defeat the enemy.
Brother, does it make sense to you that its permissible for someone to fight in the cause of Allah (one of the greatest deeds in islam) and becomes a martyr by doing something that is totally forbidden by Allah.

How can you perform such a rewared act by doing something haraam in the first place?

Jihad is striving in Allah's cause, suicide bombing is just taking the easy way out. I understand your point about causing maximum damage from a military point of view, but don't you know that Allah will always give victory to the muslims?, no matter how weak or less they are in number, read the stories of the battles during the times of our Prophet, how many muslims were there? how good weapons did they have?

The whole point is to fight in Allah's cause, you can't go against His laws to do so

If you're gonna strive in Allahs cause then atleast do it properly and face whatever comes as a result of it
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usman2468
08-24-2008, 06:58 PM
As I said. I am STRONGLY against suicide attacks and I totally agree with you. I was just trying to highlight the differences between the military powers to Barney.

Anyway...Nice Avatar, aadil777
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Muezzin
08-24-2008, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by usman2468
Though I realize that suicide attacks are stupid after reading some articles...

But barney, snipers, attacking checkpoints, etc. Well, you should that this is not that easy. There is too much difference between the military powers.

One have bombers and helicopters while the other don't
One have smart bombs while the other don't
One have high tech machine guns while other don't
One have highly trained and specialized personals while the other don't
One have satellite for spying while the other don't.
One have tanks while the other don't
One have hundreds of APCs while the other have few
One have continuous food and medical supply while the other don't

I could go on...and on...and on...
The elephant in the room is that civilians are not legitimate targets in Islam or in man-made law. Suicide is forbidden in Islam. Suicide attacks tend to target civilians exclusively.

While I can understand what might drive certain individuals to take this course of action, I do not condone it.
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usman2468
08-24-2008, 07:08 PM
As I said. I am STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY against suicide attacks and I totally agree with you. I was just trying to highlight the differences between the military powers to Barney.

You get it now?
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usman2468
08-24-2008, 07:08 PM
lol :)
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Muezzin
08-24-2008, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by usman2468
As I said. I am STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY against suicide attacks and I totally agree with you. I was just trying to highlight the differences between the military powers to Barney.

You get it now?
Oh, I get it. I know you don't support those actions. It's just, the difference of military powers does not justify attacking civilians, which tends to be the crux of the matter when it comes to suicide attacks.
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usman2468
08-24-2008, 07:11 PM
:exhausted:exhausted:exhausted I only wanted Barney to realize that there is alot of difference b/w the millitary strengths. NOTHING else

I hope u get it now :):):)
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Muezzin
08-24-2008, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by usman2468
:exhausted:exhausted:exhausted
lol

I only wanted Barney to realize that there is alot of difference b/w the millitary strengths. NOTHING else

I hope u get it now :):):)
I do. You personally condemn suicide attacks. You were simply outlining the difference in military power.

All I was doing was adding my thoughts that difference in military power does not mean that anyone can kill civilians. :)
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