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Uthman
08-23-2008, 08:38 AM
The "Undercover Mosque" programme is to return to TV following its libel victory over West Midlands Police by sending a woman into a mainstream mosque to expose extremism.

By Duncan Gardham, Security Correspondent

Channel 4 and the programme-makers were paid an estimated £100,000 after police falsely claimed the documentary had selectively edited quotes from preachers in mosques around the country to make them appear more extreme.

The Crown Prosecution Service decided not to prosecute the preachers and instead referred the programme makers, Hardcash, to the regulator Ofcom regulator which later cleared them of all charges.

Now Hardcash has made a follow-up programme for Channel 4's Dispatches, to be broadcast next month, in which a female reporter attends prayer meetings at an important British mosque which claims to be dedicated to moderation and dialogue with other faiths.

The programme-makers, who are not naming the mosque at this stage, say she secretly filmed shocking sermons given to the women-only congregation in which female preachers recited extremist and intolerant beliefs.

As hundreds of women and some children came to pray, a preacher called for adulterers, homosexuals, women who act like men and Muslim converts to other faiths to be killed, saying: "Kill him, kill him. You have to kill him, you understand. This is Islam."

Channel 4 said: "Worshippers are repeatedly told they must lead separate lives from non-believers and not tolerate other religions. Christian teachings are described as "vile and disgusting, an abomination."

At private, invite-only prayer meetings linked to the mosque, the reporter films the leading preacher from the women's prayer circle issuing strict diktats on women's personal freedoms - decreeing they must not travel far without a male member of the family to escort them, and instructing them not to integrate with British society or work in a non-Islamic environment."

In the same mosque, the reporter visited the bookshop and discovered books and DVDs still on sale, promoting extremist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic and intolerant messages, Channel 4 said.

"Unbelievers are described in one DVD as: 'Evil, wicked, mischievous people - you can see the evil in their face.' Whilst Jews, 'have abominated, filthy, disgusting gross belief - their time will come like every other evil person's time will come.' "

The film also reveals that Government advisers have been preaching radical views as it goes undercover in two mosques and a Saudi funded organisation, sources said.

Dispatches traces the links between the teachings and materials at the mosque and the Saudi Arabian religious establishment, and examines the extent to which Saudi Arabia exports such teachings around the world through the funding of literature, schools, mosques and other organisations.

As part of the investigation, the undercover reporter also films inside a key Saudi-funded Muslim organisation which claims to promote tolerance and integration yet distributes literature which promotes intolerance for non-Muslims, an extreme version of Sharia law and teachings which support discrimination against women.

The programme was commissioned in the middle of the row over the first documentary and David Henshaw, managing director of Hardcash, said: "We have had unflinching support from Channel 4 who have shown great faith in our journalistic standards despite the ambush from the West Midlands Police.

"I believe this programme is as stunning as the first and I hope it will initiate a debate about the clash between theology and politics."

The film also features interviews with a former Foreign Office minister and Islamic academics who condemn these messages of intolerance and segregation and warn of the impact this version of Islam is having on British society.

One imam at a leading university accuses the Saudi religious establishment of the: "distortion of Islam itself, the abuse and misuse of this great faith of mine and not only mine but of my children as well."

Source
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Whatsthepoint
08-23-2008, 12:42 PM
:bump:
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The_Prince
08-23-2008, 02:37 PM
boring, same old nonsense, wont change anything, just a few nice headlines and then finnish, in that same time more people will just embrace Islam, so theres nothing to really debate mr henshaw.
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Thinker
08-23-2008, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
boring, same old nonsense, wont change anything, just a few nice headlines and then finnish, in that same time more people will just embrace Islam, so theres nothing to really debate mr henshaw.

I find it difficult to understand your rationale, perhap you would explain?
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The_Prince
08-23-2008, 03:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I find it difficult to understand your rationale, perhap you would explain?
well i have said this on another thread. we dont need to debate anything, fact is fact, Islam is growing, especially in the west, hence in reality Muslims dont need to debate anything, the thing that needs to be debated is what will we do when Islam is not a minority anymore. and im not talking about religous debate here, as in polemics, im talking about this debate about Muslims and society, were do Muslims fit in etc etc etc, we dont need to have a debate about this as i said above, were growing and will no longer be a minority once my great grandkids are alive :D

so let people make these documentaries etc and call for debates, but i say again, there is NOTHING to debate. the saudis will also continue to spend billions of dollars in spreading Islam around the west as they have been doing, and none of you can do anything about that. so now tell me, what shall we debate?
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Whatsthepoint
08-23-2008, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
well i have said this on another thread. we dont need to debate anything, fact is fact, Islam is growing, especially in the west, hence in reality Muslims dont need to debate anything, the thing that needs to be debated is what will we do when Islam is not a minority anymore. and im not talking about religous debate here, as in polemics, im talking about this debate about Muslims and society, were do Muslims fit in etc etc etc, we dont need to have a debate about this as i said above, were growing and will no longer be a minority once my great grandkids are alive :D

so let people make these documentaries etc and call for debates, but i say again, there is NOTHING to debate. the saudis will also continue to spend billions of dollars in spreading Islam around the west as they have been doing, and none of you can do anything about that. so now tell me, what shall we debate?
Hopefully the governments across Europe will limit immigration and present laws to deport illegals or immigrant criminals including imams, so you may have to wait a bit longer.
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The_Prince
08-23-2008, 03:53 PM
whats hateful about saing christianity is disgusting etc etc? and whats hateful about saying we dont want to integrate into the life style of other people? erm this isnt against the law last i checked. lol when people call Islam disgusting and violent 24-7 its not bad at all, now when we say the same for Christianity it becomes evil? says who? you an infidel? who said you are in charge in the first place?

secondly, these Muslims are british themselves, and they dont want to get mixed with sex, alcohol and so on, they want their own british way of life. people dont attack american mormons for this, or american amish people, so why for Muslims it becomes different?

fact is fact, this is all due to a deep hatred for Islam and Muslims, when Muslims do something that every other group of people have done and did, only Muslims will get blame.

you infidels perhaps expect us Muslims to be your slaves and keep our mouths shut while you have the right to non stop attack Islam and Muslims 24-7 ey?

also some people might feel offended that i say 'infidel' well Christians made this word up, so i enjoy using it. plus you infidels call us Muhammadans and many many title names. and this is what im talking about! why can they call us muhammadan and so on and we cant say infidel without getting a stare?!
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The_Prince
08-23-2008, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hopefully the governments across Europe will limit immigration and present laws to deport illegals or immigrant criminals including imams, so you may have to wait a bit longer.
most of these people arent illegals, or criminals, so take your bigoted view and stick it where the sun dont shine buddy. and the goverment will not be doing that anytime soon neither. many of these people are british so time to face the music as they say.
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Whatsthepoint
08-23-2008, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
most of these people arent illegals, or criminals, so take your bigoted view and stick it where the sun dont shine buddy. and the goverment will not be doing that anytime soon neither. many of these people are british so time to face the music as they say.
I'm not talking about the second or the third generation, I'm talking about the new ones.
Britain may not, but the continental governments are.
And besides, you can't expect the birth rates to be as high all the time, they've already already slowed down and they will continue to do so.
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NoName55
08-23-2008, 04:15 PM
the answer to "kill them kill them sermons" is very simple; Deport them, Deport them!
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DAWUD_adnan
08-23-2008, 07:01 PM
So, when's this on tv?

I really liked watching the first one.
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Amadeus85
08-24-2008, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
well i have said this on another thread. we dont need to debate anything, fact is fact, Islam is growing, especially in the west, hence in reality Muslims dont need to debate anything, the thing that needs to be debated is what will we do when Islam is not a minority anymore. and im not talking about religous debate here, as in polemics, im talking about this debate about Muslims and society, were do Muslims fit in etc etc etc, we dont need to have a debate about this as i said above, were growing and will no longer be a minority once my great grandkids are alive :D

so let people make these documentaries etc and call for debates, but i say again, there is NOTHING to debate. the saudis will also continue to spend billions of dollars in spreading Islam around the west as they have been doing, and none of you can do anything about that. so now tell me, what shall we debate?
I like people who say openly what others just think in their minds.
It is clear what muslims like you want.
I just want you to know that more and more europeans get know your plans every year.
And that knowledge is first step to do something about saving this continent from your totalitarian ideas.
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Muezzin
08-24-2008, 12:26 PM
At some point, everyone stopped talking about the topic. It used to be good. This topic used to be at 'awesome' level. I want to take it back to 'awesome'.
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Uthman
08-24-2008, 12:52 PM
I don't understand why they are doing this. Are they oblivious to the fact that this will lead to increased distrust of non-extreme Muslims from the British public? Are do they just not care? This is going to make matters worse.
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crayon
08-24-2008, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I don't understand why they are doing this. Are they oblivious to the fact that this will lead to increased distrust of non-extreme Muslims from the British public? Are do they just not care? This is going to make matters worse.
I think it's to show that ALL islam is extreme, hence their going to a mainstream mosque..
So it's like:
jack-"they're telling them to kill adulterers, at this supposedly peaceful, tolerant mosque"
jill- "oh my, shock, horror!"
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czgibson
08-24-2008, 01:14 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I don't understand why they are doing this. Are they oblivious to the fact that this will lead to increased distrust of non-extreme Muslims from the British public? Are do they just not care? This is going to make matters worse.
I think it's important to publicise the hatred being preached by men of religion in Britain. More important than not hurting anyone's feelings, that's for sure. Views like those expressed in the article are not welcome in Britain - it's as simple as that.

Peace
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Whatsthepoint
08-24-2008, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I think it's to show that ALL islam is extreme, hence their going to a mainstream mosque..
So it's like:
jack-"they're telling them to kill adulterers, at this supposedly peaceful, tolerant mosque"
jill- "oh my, shock, horror!"
If they're saying the Koran teaches adulterers in an Islamic state with the prosecution having acquired 4 witnesses, aught to be stoned, I see no problem with it.
If they're saying something else, there could be a problem.
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crayon
08-24-2008, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If they're saying the Koran teaches adulterers in an Islamic state with the prosecution having acquired 4 witnesses, aught to be stoned, I see no problem with it.
If they're saying something else, there could be a problem.
But that's the problem. A lot of the time when people discuss the punishment for adultery in islam, they don't mention all the conditions for it to take place, it would just take too long to repeat every time, and it's a given. The 4 people witnessing the actual act, it going through a proper court, etc. aren't mentioned. All that is heard is "kill adulterers". So when an average person hears that, they're going to think that muslims are vigilantes who will throw rocks at random couples they see in the street. Which is an incorrect image of the law really is.
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Uthman
08-24-2008, 01:59 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I think it's important to publicise the hatred being preached by men of religion in Britain.
They already did that though. Why are they doing it again?
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czgibson
08-24-2008, 02:13 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
They already did that though. Why are they doing it again?
To show that it's still going on.

Peace
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'Abd-al Latif
08-24-2008, 05:01 PM
Below is Khalid Yasins response to this after they had contacted him that they will broadcast him on their channel:









14/08/08

Dear Mr. Smith:

I am replying to you only as a courtesy, and not because I am concerned about your intended broadcast. I expect, in fact, I am certain, that your intended broadcast, will contain the usual anti-Islamic rhetoric and soundbites that are designed to provoke an already conditioned public into a fear about the Islamic system, and a fear and contempt for Muslims in general.

As for the constant use of the words "intolerant" and "extremism", I think that you, and your colleagues at Channel 4, or HardCash Productions, have been indelibly and consistently exhibiting the most vehement and malicious religious intolerance and journalistic extremism, of nearly anyone in the entire television industry of the United Kingdom!

Not only are you inaccurate, but you are scandalous, unethical and merchants of jounalistic vomit. Your motives are not morally driven, nor aimed at the intellectualization of your viewers. Rather, you are resorting to the use of cheap sensational journalism, to exploit an unaware and pre-conditioned public, in order to make the "bottom line" profit that sustains your "Channel 4 - HardCore" vomit factory.

Your allegations of my statements on a DVD, titled "Building a Muslim Community", and I must say allegations, because, in every lecture, writing, or communication of any kind, there is something called the "context", which can only be appreciated when someone objectively, sincerely, and intellectually, forms an opinion, after making a comprehensive and thorough examination.

I want to remind you, that capital punishment, including, but limited to: decapitation, lethal injection, firing squad, gas chamber, electrocution, and hanging by the neck, has been, and is still resorted to by Governments and States throughout the modern world as both a punishment and a deterrent for criminal behavior in the society. It is not a practice limited to Muslim countries, whether past or present.

Whatever statements I made in that lecture was aimed at reforming the Muslim people, the Muslim society, and the Muslim world, to know that Islam is not merely a system of religious rituals and theological observances, but is a comprehensive system of Law and Justice, legislated by Almighty
God, and adjudicated by the Sovereign Islamic State, when there exists such a state.

Due to historically documented conspiracies between criminal Muslim States and the immoral empirical ambitions of countries like Great Britain (as the United Kingdom was referred to at that time) and the United States of America, the legitimate ambition to have and sustain a Sovereign Islamic State in the world, has been almost completely annihilated and in most Muslim countries today, criminalized.

If you call yourselves educating and alarming the UK society about radical, Saudi-based intolerance and extremism, why are you using my alleged words "to Muslims", "about Muslims" and the reformation and development of their countries and societies, to make your *******ized point? I have visited Saudi Arabia for
Hajj and Umrah, and yes, I have learned some Arabic there, but does that make me a purveyor of what you characterize for your illicit media purposes as a "Saudi - based theology based upon intolerance, separatism, and extremism?

Suppose you or some other "good Christian visited Ireland, and studied their language, would that itself an indictment of your support for what used to be at one time, the very criminal, intolerant, separatist, and
extremist Irish Republican Army? Of couse not! So why the double and blatantly hypocritical standards? I am not, and have never been a supporter or a promoter of Saudi Arabian government policy or
religious rhetoric, and most objective intellectuals in the world of multi-media would know that, except you and your ignorant Islamophobic colleagues.

As for the alleged promise of the bookstore in the Islamic Cultural Centre at the Regents Park Mosque, to stop selling my DVD's based upon your now very infamous "Dispatches Series", titled: "Undercover Mosques", if they made such a promise,(which I have no evidence that they did) that would have been very shameful, cowardly, unIslamic, and unconstitutional!

Firstly, because that bookstore is privately owned, and secondly, because it is the constitutional right of every person in a free and democratic society like the United Kingdom, to express any view they wish, so long as it is not politically seditious, inciting hatred, promoting violence, maligning or attacking any lifestyle or religion, or seeking to commit or conspire to commit, any act of terrorism. I can say without the least
reservation - I have never, and will never knowingly support or advocate any such behavior!

Why doesn't "Channel 4, and your HardCore", "Hard4Cash" Group, collaborate and review some of the hundreds of magazines and periodicals that are sold on newstands and bookstores all over the United Kingdom and Europe, promoting and endorsing, pornography, gambling, pedophilia, bestiality, violent sports, mercenary activities, bigotry, and other forms of unsocial behaviors? Why... because, the simple fact is that it freedom of speech, even though most of it is clearly immoral and socially destructive!

You and your colleagues are not only hypocritical and exploitive bigots, you are audacious liars and opportunistic media vermin, who have never allowed anyone whom you attack, the chance to respond on your actual television platform, which is the subject of my concluding remarks. You has cleverly invited me to respond in writing, to what you will be broadcasting by television. What you don't say, is that you will pick and choose from even that written response, to try to find further flaws and ammunition for your "stealth attack" and character assassination!

It doesn't really matter, what part you choose to mutilate, the response in it's entirety will be broadcast on seventeen television platforms around the world, and made available to hundreds of magazines and periodicals, for their comparison edification. I will utilize my relationship with these media platforms to counter your evil intent.

In addition to that, I am challenging "Channel 4 and Hard4Cash (or HardCore) Ltd. to an unedited open-ended interview, to discuss my views and responses to their media productions, past and present! If you do not accept, hundreds of millions viewers will be aware of your one-sided, prejudicial campaigns against Islam and Muslims!

I await your response, whatever it may be...

Shaykh Khalid Yasin

Chairman
Purpose Media Group
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czgibson
08-24-2008, 05:29 PM
Greetings,

Shaykh Khalid Yasin is certainly a character, isn't he?

The bit about the 'vomit factory' made me laugh.

Some people would probably call this joker a "scholar". Remarkable, really.

Peace
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barney
08-24-2008, 05:44 PM
Well I think this is a good place to ask everyone.

In a mainstream mosque, do your speakers say "Kill the Homosexual" "Kill the infidel" "Islam will reign supreme" "Shun the Kuffar"?

Is this something that is a regular feature or that ever features in any mosque you have been in?
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Questfortruth
08-24-2008, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Shaykh Khalid Yasin is certainly a character, isn't he?

The bit about the 'vomit factory' made me laugh.

Some people would probably call this joker a "scholar". Remarkable, really.

Peace
Shakyh Khalid Yasin is a great peaceful scholar. I watched the first undercover mosque majority of what the shakyh said was taken out of context.
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Questfortruth
08-24-2008, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Well I think this is a good place to ask everyone.

In a mainstream mosque, do your speakers say "Kill the Homosexual" "Kill the infidel" "Islam will reign supreme" "Shun the Kuffar"?

Is this something that is a regular feature or that ever features in any mosque you have been in?
The mosque I go to is open. So anythings goes Imams from extremist to modernist and all in between can speak. I personally never heard any of the Imams call out for murder of anyone. The mosque I go to is probably the most diverse mosque.
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aamirsaab
08-24-2008, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Well I think this is a good place to ask everyone.

In a mainstream mosque, do your speakers say "Kill the Homosexual" "Kill the infidel" "Islam will reign supreme" "Shun the Kuffar"?

Is this something that is a regular feature or that ever features in any mosque you have been in?
I visit 3 different mosques in Leicester; in all the times I have been to those three, nothing of the like of ''Shun the kuffar'', ''Kill the homosexual'', ''kill the infidel'' etc has been stated. Often, the issues that ARE raised in the mosques that I visit are: follow Islam, Pray, Do charity, Love the Prophet etc etc. Sometimes, they are repeated!
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Cabdullahi
08-24-2008, 07:20 PM
What kind of mosques do channel 4 go to? i want to know
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Uthman
08-24-2008, 09:13 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
They already did that though. Why are they doing it again?
To show that it's still going on.
Dispatches has raised serious issues on several different topics throughout the course of it's series. Do you feel that they should also do follow-ups on these episodes to show that the issues are still going on? For example, there was an episode called Sandwiches Unwrapped which showed that there were serious violations of the law taking place in the sandwich making industry which poses a health risk to consumers.

Regards
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Uthman
08-24-2008, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Well I think this is a good place to ask everyone.

In a mainstream mosque, do your speakers say "Kill the Homosexual" "Kill the infidel" "Islam will reign supreme" "Shun the Kuffar"?

Is this something that is a regular feature or that ever features in any mosque you have been in?
At my local mosque, the Imaam does sermons in urdu/punjabi or something so I don't really have a clue what he is saying. He speaks some English though and he's a really nice chap so I doubt he is preaching extreme messages at the Friday sermons.
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Tornado
08-24-2008, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings,

Dispatches has raised serious issues on several different topics throughout the course of it's series. Do you feel that they should also do follow-ups on these episodes to show that the issues are still going on? For example, there was an episode called Sandwiches Unwrapped which showed that there were serious violations of the law taking place in the sandwich making industry which poses a health risk to consumers.

Regards
Perhaps it's really all about the ratings. They are a business after all. I doubt people will tune in to watch concerns about sandwiches. Kind of hard to gauge what their purpose is really.
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Keltoi
08-24-2008, 11:37 PM
Just as a sidenote, I visited a mosque in Springfield, Missouri this weekend. Not to worship obviously. The people were very friendly and I felt welcome there. It is called the Shine Mosque, for any who happen to visit that area. Good experience for me. It is a shame if some mosques ruin the image for the rest.
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'Abd-al Latif
08-25-2008, 11:52 AM
another message from khalid yasins website



Assalam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

We urge all members & readers of this topic to fill out the following template with your name and send to the following emails:

hardcash@hardcashproductions.com
JTomalin@channel4.co.uk
ksutcliffe@channel4.co.uk
nigel.abbas@btinternet.com

Template:
----------------------------------------------------
Dear Hardcash production,

I, the undersigned, call on hardcash production, to cease and desist your continuous development of Islamophobic and Xenophobic programmes. Furthermore I demand that hardcash production broadcast a Live and unedited interview with Shaykh Khalid Yasin, where you can pose these allegations directly to the Shaykh and allow him the opportunity to respond in an appropriate and fair manner.

Best regards,
<your name>

----------------------------------------------------

Only together as a muslim mass can we act as an authority and demand our voice to be heard.

your brother in Islam,
Administrator of ChallengeYourSoul.com

Waleikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
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Thinker
08-26-2008, 10:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
As for the constant use of the words "intolerant" and "extremism", I think that you, and your colleagues at Channel 4, or HardCash Productions, have been indelibly and consistently exhibiting the most vehement and malicious religious intolerance and journalistic extremism, of nearly anyone in the entire television industry of the United Kingdom!
With regards to hatred and violence, peace and tolerance, I can find on the net, many lists of verses from the Qur'an supporting hatred and violence, I accept that much of this has been posted by those who are no friend to Islam, I am unable to find similar studies producing lists of sura verses advocating peace and tolerance (to non Muslims); could anybody point me to them or list for me the sura and verse number of verses promoting peace and tolerance to non Muslims?
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aamirsaab
08-26-2008, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
With regards to hatred and violence, peace and tolerance, I can find on the net, many lists of verses from the Qur'an supporting hatred and violence, I accept that much of this has been posted by those who are no friend to Islam, I am unable to find similar studies producing lists of sura verses advocating peace and tolerance (to non Muslims); could anybody point me to them or list for me the sura and verse number of verses promoting peace and tolerance to non Muslims?
That is a topic in and of itself. I would recommend creating a new thread about that so we may all discuss it properly.
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Thinker
08-26-2008, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Originally Posted by Thinker
With regards to hatred and violence, peace and tolerance, I can find on the net, many lists of verses from the Qur'an supporting hatred and violence, I accept that much of this has been posted by those who are no friend to Islam, I am unable to find similar studies producing lists of sura verses advocating peace and tolerance (to non Muslims); could anybody point me to them or list for me the sura and verse number of verses promoting peace and tolerance to non Muslims?

That is a topic in and of itself. I would recommend creating a new thread about that so we may all discuss it properly.
I am happy to start a new thread with this question but I do think this thread is an appropriate place for it – why?

To start with you have to make some allowances for me being knew to a lot of this (I’m not stupid just knew). I have read a lot of stuff and learnt of lot but there are still a lot of holes in my knowledge and a lot of stuff in my head based upon presumptions which are based upon stuff picked up over time. For example I can recall the question of radical preachers like Izzadeen and Hamza being discussed on TV and the suggestion made that radical Imam’s preaching in Mosques should be replaced by Imam’s preaching peace and tolerance. And, I further presume that someone somewhere, with an in depth understanding of Islamic literature has produced all the arguments with all the evidence to counter the teachings of preachers like Izzadeen and Hamza. Again, I presume from that I have read here that this TV programme (and I didn’t see the earlier one) will show an Imam preaching hatred and again I presume that he will support his preachings with evidence from Islamic literature. So I am presuming that somewhere there are all the counter arguments to the radicals with all the supporting evidence and I’d justy like a pointer to where I can find it - where is it? (Phew – a lot of presumptions in there!!)
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Thinker
08-26-2008, 06:17 PM
In my search for evidence of tolerance and accomodation in Islam I have read through a 'Sticky' post tiled Myths of Intolerenace in Islam. That post does not allow me the facility to reply to it so I post my question/observation here. . . . . . .

You say . . . .

Sura 2:256, God declares: "There is no compulsion in religion..."

My copy of the Qur’an says . . . .

Sura 2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

Sura 2:257. God is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

The difference is that there’s no compulsion but if you don’t you’ll fry in hell.

You say . . . .

Sura 3:19. "But if they dispute with thee, say: I submit myself entirely to God and (so does) he who follows me, and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned (people): Do you submit yourselves? If they submit, then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, thy duty is only to deliver the message..."

My copy of the Qur’an says . . . .

Sura 3:19. The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account

Sura 3:20. So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah.s sight are (all) His servants.

The subtle word in you version of ‘only’ is left out in my version so that my version could be read as a compulsion to convert.

Finally if there is no ‘compulsion in religion’ what about apostates is there no compulsion in religion when it comes to them? . . . .

Sura 9:12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.”
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Keltoi
08-26-2008, 06:35 PM
That sort of question probably needs to be posted in Comparative Religion. There is a "Questions about Islam" thread there that might be appropriate.
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Uthman
08-27-2008, 04:47 PM
It seems as though the programme is going to air during Ramadhan.
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Uthman
08-29-2008, 06:30 PM
Broadcast: Monday 01 September 2008 08:00 PM

A year-and-a-half after the critically-acclaimed film Undercover Mosque was first screened, Dispatches goes undercover again to see whether extremist beliefs continue to be promoted in certain key British Muslim institutions.

The film also investigates the role of the Saudi Arabian religious establishment in spreading a hard-line, fundamentalist Islamic ideology in the UK - the very ideology the Government claims to be tackling.

A female reporter attends prayer meetings at an important British mosque which claims to be dedicated to moderation and dialogue with other faiths. She secretly films shocking sermons given to the women-only congregation in which female preachers recite extremist and intolerant beliefs. As hundreds of women and some children come to pray, a preacher calls for adulterers, homosexuals, women who act like men and Muslim converts to other faiths to be killed, saying: "Kill him, kill him. You have to kill him, you understand. This is Islam."

Worshippers are repeatedly told they must lead separate lives from non-believers and not tolerate other religions. Christian teachings are described as "vile and disgusting, an abomination." And at private, invite-only prayer meetings linked to the mosque, the reporter films the leading preacher from the women's prayer circle issuing strict dictats on women's personal freedoms - decreeing they must not travel far without a male member of the family to escort them, and instructing them not to integrate with British society or work in a non-Islamic environment.

In the same mosque, the reporter visits the bookshop and discovers books and DVDs still on sale, promoting extremist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic and intolerant messages. Unbelievers ('kuffaars') are described in one DVD as: "Evil, wicked, mischievous people - you can see the evil in their face". Whilst Jews, "have abominated, filthy, disgusting gross belief - their time will come like every other evil person's time will come." Moderate Muslims and Islamic academics tell Dispatches they reject and condemn these teachings. Dispatches traces the links between the teachings and materials at the mosque and the Saudi Arabian religious establishment, and examines the extent to which Saudi Arabia exports such teachings around the world through the funding of literature, schools, mosques and other organisations.

Dispatches also interviews a former teacher at a Saudi-run faith school who describes how the official Saudi educational curriculum was taught in the school. He shows Dispatches official Saudi textbooks from the school which featured anti-Semitic and anti-Christian teachings.

As part of the investigation, the undercover reporter also films inside a key Saudi-funded Muslim organisation which claims to promote tolerance and integration yet distributes literature which promotes intolerance for non-Muslims, an extreme version of Sharia law and teachings which support discrimination against women.

The Government claims Saudi Arabia is its partner in tackling extremism, but a former Foreign Office Minister tells Dispatches he believes the Government should take a stronger line. The film also features interviews with Islamic academics who condemn these messages of intolerance and segregation and warn of the impact this version of Islam is having on British society. One imam at a leading university accuses the Saudi religious establishment of the: "distortion of Islam itself, the abuse and misuse of this great faith of mine and not only mine but of my children as well."

Source
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Uthman
08-30-2008, 08:36 PM
Bump.
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Amadeus85
08-30-2008, 10:04 PM
Im sorry Osman, but this is like second thread about same topic posted by You :).
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-31-2008, 12:08 AM
return of the goo :D
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Im sorry Osman, but this is like second thread about same topic posted by You :).
Lol sorry. :-[ This is the info from the channel 4 site. Besides not everybody visits the WA section and the other one was just an article about it from a newspaper site.
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Muezzin
08-31-2008, 11:33 AM
Threads merged.
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Fazl Ahmad
08-31-2008, 11:46 AM
Assalamu alaikum

I think it is very sad that British government and media does not trust the Muslim community and feels it is necessary to spy on us in our masajid, recording religious sermons and broadcasting them to the general public. Something is very wrong with that. British society prides itself on being secular, where all religions are equal and government does not interfere in other peoples religion. Yet, the British government is doing the exact opposite of that, setting up task forces and funding groups to try and change Islamic education. This is not just exclusive to Britain, all over Europe Muslims are being forced to assimilate into western society against their will.
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Thinker
08-31-2008, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fazl Ahmad
Assalamu alaikum

I think it is very sad that British government and media does not trust the Muslim community and feels it is necessary to spy on us in our masajid, recording religious sermons and broadcasting them to the general public. Something is very wrong with that. British society prides itself on being secular, where all religions are equal and government does not interfere in other peoples religion. Yet, the British government is doing the exact opposite of that, setting up task forces and funding groups to try and change Islamic education. This is not just exclusive to Britain, all over Europe Muslims are being forced to assimilate into western society against their will.
Daily Mail – Sunday 31st August . . . .

Dispatches returned to Regent’s Park mosque to find exactly the same extremist books on sale there and female preachers spreading radical ******* Islam. For apostates “what are we going to do? We kill him, kill, kill; for women adulterers – stoning to death.

The man in charge of the mosque, Dr Ahmed Al Dubayan, is the Islamic Affairs attaché to the Saudi Embassy.

Never have been in a mosque here are my questions:

1. Knowing that Dr Ahmed Al Dubayan, is the Islamic Affairs attaché to the Saudy Embassy and the connotations that must bring with it, why does the congregation allow such a man to be ‘in charge?’

2. Why haven’t the 99% of Muslims who are moderate and believe Islam preaches peace and tolerance (a) stopped extremist literature being sold in the mosque (b) confronted and ejected the speakers preaching hatred and violence and (c) reported those matters to the police?

3. Is this forum backed by Saudi money or in any other way influence by Saudi Arabia?
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Thinker
08-31-2008, 12:00 PM
Hmmm in the above post quoting from the Daily Mail I wrote radical w a h h a b i Islam and the system has replaced the 'w' word with asterisks - why is that?
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doorster
08-31-2008, 12:49 PM
better put these questions to Brown, Bush and co, for it is their proxy/puppet who runs Saudi Arabia and its Embassies
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 01:09 PM
Greetings Thinker,

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
1. Knowing that Dr Ahmed Al Dubayan, is the Islamic Affairs attaché to the Saudy Embassy and the connotations that must bring with it, why does the congregation allow such a man to be ‘in charge?’
What are these connotations?

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
2. Why haven’t the 99% of Muslims who are moderate and believe Islam preaches peace and tolerance (a) stopped extremist literature being sold in the mosque (b) confronted and ejected the speakers preaching hatred and violence and (c) reported those matters to the police?
I can't possibly know for sure. If there are speakers who incite racial hatred and/or violence then I agree that they probably should be confonted. I have to admit though, that if I experienced so-called 'extreme' preaching in my local mosque, I would probably ignore it and discuss it with my peers.

I wonder why Dispatches doesn't interview these speakers. After the last programme many speakers claimed that their comments were taken out of context. Surely a proper, unedited interview would ascertain whether there is any basis to them claims or not. There is a need for openness and dialogue. Going inside a mosque undercover isn't sending out a positive message to the 99% of moderate Muslims out there. It shows a lack of trust on their part and the Muslim community can end up feeling more alienated than ever before.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
3. Is this forum backed by Saudi money or in any other way influence by Saudi Arabia?
No.

Regards
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hmmm in the above post quoting from the Daily Mail I wrote radical w a h h a b i Islam and the system has replaced the 'w' word with asterisks - why is that?
It's an offensive word and one that is very much misused (like Jihad). See the wiki article on it.

Regards
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aamirsaab
08-31-2008, 01:29 PM
Just going to deal with point 2 and 3
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
....
Never have been in a mosque here are my questions:

2. Why haven’t the 99% of Muslims who are moderate and believe Islam preaches peace and tolerance (a) stopped extremist literature being sold in the mosque (b) confronted and ejected the speakers preaching hatred and violence and (c) reported those matters to the police?
A) Erm, I don't think you realise how this information is spread. Also, do you know HOW difficult it is to stop (FREE) literature being spread out?

B) I believe certain imaams have. Most muslims that I know are educated enough to realise these so called scholars who preach intolerance and hatred, are talking out of their butts. However, in the cases to which I believe you are refferring to, the imaams of those mosques hold that view point so it would be difficult to ''topple'' them. Though, I should mention that in all the masjids I have been to (3 in my current residence, 1 in brummy and 1 in pakistan) none of which spoke of intolerance or hatred (though, the one time in pakistan doesn't count for much seeing as I didn't understand a word he was saying....this happened over a decade ago - I know I'm pretty smart, mashallah but even I have limits!)

C) They would if they knew them! The mosques don't work like the bloody fbi - you go to pray and learn about Islam in a mosque - the most hi-tech equipment you'll find in your local masjid is a £25 sub-woofer and mic combo! In other words: we don't neccessarily knows what goes on in the other mosques (which is why we VISIT them)


3. Is this forum backed by Saudi money or in any other way influence by Saudi Arabia?
LOL hahahahaha. No.

I really suggest that you visit a mosque and I actually find it rather baffling that for a man who has travelled around the world (according to your posts that is), you have yet to visit a mosque?! Whatever, just visit a mosque and ask your questions there - you'll get a better answer in person from the dudes that know.
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Most muslims that I know are educated enough to realise these so called scholars who preach intolerance and hatred, are talking out of their butts.
Good point, I was also thinking along the same lines. The Muslim community ain't stupid! The tiny percentage that do commit extremist actions don't do so as a result of some dodgy Friday sermons.
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Thinker
08-31-2008, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings Thinker,

What are these connotations?


Regards


Connotations – I think its generally accepted that the Saudi’s pursue a rather more extreme interpretation of the Qur’an and I thinks it generally accepted that they spend huge amounts of money promoting those views; it would consequently follow that if the man in charge of the mosque is being paid by the Saudi’s he’s likely to pursue the policies of his Saudi masters.
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 01:52 PM
I doubt I'll be watching it anyway. I'll be having my Iftar and going to the mosque for Salaat-ul-Maghrib.
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Thinker
08-31-2008, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I really suggest that you visit a mosque and I actually find it rather baffling that for a man who has travelled around the world (according to your posts that is), you have yet to visit a mosque?!
I've been Mosques as a tourist visiting historically significant Mosques but even then only in the perimeters. I can't just walk into a Mosque on a Friday afternoon and sit there listening can I? Wouldn't I stick out like a sore thumb?
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Zafran
08-31-2008, 02:07 PM
salaam

well all the mosques i have been to and never have i heard "kill the kuffar" or anything carzy as that, Its always been about, respecting your parents, following the prophet of God, reading the salat prayers and fasting in the month of Ramadan.
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aamirsaab
08-31-2008, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
... I can't just walk into a Mosque on a Friday afternoon and sit there listening can I? Wouldn't I stick out like a sore thumb?
Actually, you can. But do ask (common courtesy).

Failing that, please visit either Masjid Umar or Masjid at taqwa in Leicester; the community in both of those mosques are rather awesome and welcoming.
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DAWUD_adnan
08-31-2008, 02:23 PM
When is this on tv?
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
When is this on tv?
Tomorrow akhee.
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YusufNoor
08-31-2008, 02:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I've been Mosques as a tourist visiting historically significant Mosques but even then only in the perimeters. I can't just walk into a Mosque on a Friday afternoon and sit there listening can I? Wouldn't I stick out like a sore thumb?

:sl:

the Masjid would be at it's fullest on Jummu'ah. why not go before Mahgrib [the sunset prayer] or after Asr [the late afternoon prayer], kick your shoes off and ask for some help. you will find, In Sha'a Allah, many brothers who would be willing to spend some time to educate you on Islam. my guess is that you will find that more productive than trying to find stuff out here.

btw, the only things that would make you stick out on Jummu'ah would be jewelry [a no-no for males], hair color [unless red/yellow/orange] and tattoos [cover 'em up!] because EVERY MALE Muslim, who health allows or is travelling, MUST attend, you get the "Blue Jeans Jammah" [those looking like westerners] and the Jummu'ah Muslims [those who only pray on Fridays]; thus, ALOT of Muslims WILL be in their best clothes, but MANY are only there because they have to be! these brother, May Allah[swt] guide them, dress whatever way they want!

also, Jummu'ah CAN be a "fire and brimstone" type session, but the best "kutbahs"[what the Jummu'ah sermons are called] are the ones aimed directly at us Muslims! the Kutbah's are for us to learn and benefit, NOT to condemn others [although some condemnation might be contained therein].

of interest perhaps, Khalid Yasin has been targeted by the "undercover" folks. i know Brother Khalid [though most here know him much better than i do] and he MIGHT seem rather, erm, radical and "anti-West", but that's a skewed picture. YES, he uses strong language to defend Islam, BUT the STRONGEST language i've ever seen him use [and he gets extra mic time whenever he's around] is ALWAYS directed at us Muslims! so much so, that some brothers have to be restrained [in a nice way :D:X] when he speaks! i know, for i've had to do a little "restraining' myself!

:w:
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DAWUD_adnan
08-31-2008, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Tomorrow akhee.
InshaAllah
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Thinker
08-31-2008, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

well all the mosques i have been to and never have i heard "kill the kuffar" or anything carzy as that, Its always been about, respecting your parents, following the prophet of God, reading the salat prayers and fasting in the month of Ramadan.
Very confusing. I have to say it's difficult for me to get my head around.

I haven't been inside a Christian church for many years but I suspect that the Sunday sermons are pretty much as they always were and I believe that one sermon would be pretty much indistinguishable from another in any church in any part of the country. And, if any preacher in any one suddenly started espousing a view that was any way askew to the party line the congregation would do something.

Now I have a picture in my head with one Mosque preaching ‘this’ and another ‘that’ and the congregation sat there with a blank expression on their faces. It just seems odd to me that it is accepted as normal that a divergence of opposite view points can be preached in the same institutions. Are mosques places where anybody can get up and preach whatever they like – maybe they are?
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Uthman
08-31-2008, 03:02 PM
Thinker, have you ever considered that there aren't many extreme preachers out there and this is just made out to be more than it really is?
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Uthman
09-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Preachers of separatism at work inside Britain's mosques

The undercover reporter wrote the above article.

And please close down this section so that I can make sure I don't post here again!
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AvarAllahNoor
09-01-2008, 12:06 PM
You get nuts everywhere. But I do think Imams should monitor who is preaching what within the Mosques.
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Malaikah
09-01-2008, 01:06 PM
I remember watching the one produced a year ago. It couldn't be more obvious to someone who is familiar with Islam that almost ever single time they showed an imam saying something it was incomplete or taken out of context. Especially the one with Khalid Yasin and the supposed 'brainwashing' that was such a cheap shot!! It couldn't be more obvious that it was completely out of context, an innocent statement made to seem so sinister.

These show producers are without morals, I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of their mouths, and the letter posted earlier, written by Khalid Yasin, reflects my views on the matter perfectly.

They are nothing more than trouble makers seeking to brainwash an already ignorant community and feeding on their fears to make themselves a buck. Pathetic. They aren't worth the time of day. May Allah expose them as the liars they are!
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Amadeus85
09-01-2008, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
I remember watching the one produced a year ago. It couldn't be more obvious to someone who is familiar with Islam that almost ever single time they showed an imam saying something it was incomplete or taken out of context. Especially the one with Khalid Yasin and the supposed 'brainwashing' that was such a cheap shot!! It couldn't be more obvious that it was completely out of context, an innocent statement made to seem so sinister.

These show producers are without morals, I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of their mouths, and the letter posted earlier, written by Khalid Yasin, reflects my views on the matter perfectly.

They are nothing more than trouble makers seeking to brainwash an already ignorant community and feeding on their fears to make themselves a buck. Pathetic. They aren't worth the time of day. May Allah expose them as the liars they are!

So you are 100% sure anti brittish and anti democratic teachings dont happen in brittish mosques?
You are sure that there are really no extremist and anti western preachers in UK mosques?
If you cant give 100% guarantee, so its good that there are programmes like Dispatches.
Because, you think that the brittish state can tolerate such teachings on their soil? In Saudi Arabia, yes. In Pakistan, sure. But not in England.
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Thinker
09-01-2008, 08:02 PM
OK, I just watched the programme, I'd like to hear from my Muslim friends here on what they thought of what was said

. . . . . . .Muslim friends - oops sorry, forgot you're not allowed to have non Mulsim friends!!!
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AvarAllahNoor
09-01-2008, 08:17 PM
^^^ lol

OK, correct me If I'm wrong, this was the same old stuff. Was hoping It would be more entertaining! - I've yet to meet Muslims who think this way.
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Thinker
09-01-2008, 08:41 PM
Am I the only one that watched this programme? Is there not someone out there who will tell me that the Saudi teachers told it wrong?
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aamirsaab
09-01-2008, 09:05 PM
:sl:
Oh was it on today? I honestly forgot. By the sounds of it, I didn't miss much.
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The_Prince
09-01-2008, 09:13 PM
i was having a nice time eating iftar thank you very much. but i have made an audio commentary on this issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq9ZTJRMW30
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The_Prince
09-01-2008, 09:18 PM
btw here is something for you westerners who are loving this program:

I share the imam's outrage at the way a peaceful monotheistic religion - so close to Christianity and Judaism in its essential beliefs - has been hijacked. To hear a call for the killing of someone because of his or her sexuality or for changing their faith in what is meant to be a place of contemplation is truly shocking.

this is a comment by the lady who went undercover spying like a rat. so perhaps you westerners who are foaming of joy will take this comment into your prespective.

and btw AARON, several Christians preach against homosexuality, and many of the liberal values USA and UK have, why dont we make a program on them? i am personally debating one of these Christians in November as well. offcourse you will make some lovely excuses now and say ohhhhhh its different bla bla bla.
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Thinker
09-01-2008, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
btw here is something for you westerners who are loving this program:
Wow – you do get very excited very quickly.

What I was hoping for was someone who would pick up what was said by the Saudi teachers and produce a verse from the Qur’an showing how they were wrong.

I have to say Prince (at the risk of raising your hackles further) you would do better to deliver some content rather than just shouting out your anger (amazing how I can hear that just through your text).
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Amadeus85
09-01-2008, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince

and btw AARON, several Christians preach against homosexuality, and many of the liberal values USA and UK have, why dont we make a program on them? i am personally debating one of these Christians in November as well. offcourse you will make some lovely excuses now and say ohhhhhh its different bla bla bla.
Of course that many christian priests preach against committing homosexual acts. They do this since many years and will do it. Jewish rabbis also.
Its just there is difference between saying - "Homosexual act is wrong" and a statement that - "Active homosexuals shall be killed".
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Thinker
09-01-2008, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
btw here is something for you westerners who are loving this program:

this is a comment by the lady who went undercover spying like a rat.
Prince, instead of getting angry for obtuse reasons, use your intellect and education to produce solid logical and evidenced arguement showing that what the Saudi teachers were preaching was incorrect.
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crayon
09-01-2008, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
OK, I just watched the programme, I'd like to hear from my Muslim friends here on what they thought of what was said

. . . . . . .Muslim friends - oops sorry, forgot you're not allowed to have non Mulsim friends!!!
How witty.

Can Muslims take non Muslims as friends?
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'Abd-al Latif
09-01-2008, 09:58 PM
Not that I watched it, but May Allah give them what they deserve.

As for the constant use of the words "intolerant" and "extremism", I think that you, and your colleagues at Channel 4, or HardCash Productions, have been indelibly and consistently exhibiting the most vehement and malicious religious intolerance and journalistic extremism, of nearly anyone in the entire television industry of the United Kingdom!

Not only are you inaccurate, but you are scandalous, unethical and merchants of jounalistic vomit. Your motives are not morally driven, nor aimed at the intellectualization of your viewers. Rather, you are resorting to the use of cheap sensational journalism, to exploit an unaware and pre-conditioned public, in order to make the "bottom line" profit that sustains your "Channel 4 - HardCore" vomit factory.
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Uthman
09-01-2008, 10:00 PM
Hi Thinker,
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
What I was hoping for was someone who would pick up what was said by the Saudi teachers and produce a verse from the Qur’an showing how they were wrong.
I did not hear the Saudi teachers produce any evidence from the Qur'an and hadith to support what they were saying. The burden of proof lies on them, not us.

I have to admit, I was shocked to hear some of the things that were being said by the woman in the mosque, although she appeared to retract some of her statements afterwards. I didn't actually intend to watch it, but I did watch most of it in the end because my brother wanted to.

Regards
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doorster
09-01-2008, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I thank God that there still are some good and sensible people left on this joke of a site!

jazakillah khair
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'Abd-al Latif
09-01-2008, 10:27 PM
And may I also add, even though I haven't heard what our beloved scholar Sh. Ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him) or others who are of a much lesser degree then Sh. Ibn Baaz such as Feiz Muhammad, Khalid yasin etc have said i'm sure that there are legal proofs for all of what they said.

However, to all non-muslims no one can make a fair minded judgement from this one sided and inaccurate documentary about Islam that was produced by the vomit factory known as Channel 4 to an unaware and pre-conditioned public. Any sound minded person can see that these documentaries are biased against Islam and Muslim, edited and prepared by foolish journalists to incite hatred and enmity towards Islam and Muslims.

Make a fair minded judgement by seeing a distinguised image of Islam and Muslims from what you see on TV to what you see in real life. Islam preaches the peaceful message that it always has but know that islam is not like other religions, if you slap a Muslim in the face don't expect him to offer you the other cheek. If a Muslim is slapped in the face he will slap you back hard.

Bear that in mind.
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Ishbah
09-01-2008, 10:33 PM
:sl:

No, I watched it too. I wanted to because I wanted to see what is going on in Britain's premier masjid and also because I suspected that selective editing was going on.

Now, first things first. I am a muslim, obviously, you only need to look at my profile on here to know that. I am also a revert to Islam, of around 4 years now, married to a revert of Islam, though my husband has been a Muslim for longer than I have. This might sound strange, this might sound a little off hand, but I feel it is important for me to state this so you might understand my point of view. For me, for US; my husband and I, we don't really follow a school of thought, or a culture (which as we are white and British by descent is to be expected), we just try our best to follow the Qu'ran and the teachings of our prophet (pbuh).

So onto the programme;

I found it biased towards sensationalism. There was selective editing of most of the iman's and preachers filmed. To truly understand what the iman's were speaking about one need to have read the qu'ran to see the selected parts in context.

However, there were quite a few parts that disturbed me. Parts that needed to be investigated and brought to the attention of the public. There were parts of Umm Asma's classes which concerned me. But again, I was not there so they could have been creatively edited. I was concerned over her saying that various sinners could be legitimately killed (homosexuals, adulterers) because whilst there is parts of the qu'ran that would support that, there is also parts that support forgiveness and giving sinners a chance to repent. From what I saw (again could be creative editing) she did not qualify that.

I guess, from my understanding of British law and society, is that 'our' (ie British, not Islamic) laws have a basis in Christianity. The average Brit would not appreciate that because the average Brit is not a card carrying Christian. Most Brit's would say they are nominally Christian, but in reality they are not and have never, at any time in their life, studied Christianity or read the Bible enough to understand its teachings. They are as a result susceptible to manipulative WASP press (white, anglo saxon, protestant) who creatively edit things like the C4 programme. However they are not the only ones, every day in my life and the region that I live in, I see young men (and women) who come from good Muslim families, who by naivety become separated from their children and do not know what their children do when they leave the home. There are young men (mainly young men, but young women too) whose origins are on the Indian sub continent, and have been born in the UK and whose parents are Muslims. Some of these young men (and women) are only observing Muslims in their homes and on Friday's at the masjid. Whose fault is that? Is it society's, their parents, their own? Often these are the ones who are most at risk of being manipulated.

The problem, from both sides is complex. It IS possible to be born in the UK (or any western country) and be Islamic and lead a life by the teachings of the Qu'ran but to do that you must be open minded to the west and the east. To leave a life in the folds of Islam and within the UK law is possible in the UK but takes understanding and open mindedness. If you shut yourself off then you are at risk of either the BNP, or those that seek to manipulate the next generation of Muslims.
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Ishbah
09-01-2008, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ishbah
To leave a life in the folds of Islam and within the UK law is possible in the UK but takes understanding and open mindedness. If you shut yourself off then you are at risk of either the BNP, or those that seek to manipulate the next generation of Muslims.

EEEK! That should be to 'LIVE a life'. That shows me to post without previewing!!!! :-[
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Thinker
09-01-2008, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
However, to all non-muslims no one can make a fair minded judgement from this one sided and inaccurate documentary about Islam that was produced by the vomit factory known as Channel 4 to an unaware and pre-conditioned public. Any sound minded person can see that these documentaries are biased against Islam and Muslim, edited and prepared by foolish journalists to incite hatred and enmity towards Islam and Muslims.
OK - lets take it step by step - the lady said that Islamic literature commands that apostates should be killed - is that true - does Islamic literature say that apostates should be killed?
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'Abd-al Latif
09-01-2008, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
OK - lets take it step by step - the lady said that Islamic literature commands that apostates should be killed - is that true - does Islamic literature say that apostates should be killed?
Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, put him to death.”
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doorster
09-01-2008, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, put him to death.”
context please or it looks real bad or dare I say a distortion.


The types of apostasy
Faizah


Death Penalty for Apostasy in Islam
Michael

Apostasy in Christianity.
Light of Heaven

Islam and Apostasy
Ansar Al-'Adl

Apostasy and coming back to islam 4 times
Abu Zakariya
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
09-01-2008, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
context please or it looks real bad or dare I say a distortion.


The types of apostasy
Faizah



Death Penalty for Apostasy in Islam
Michael


Apostasy in Christianity.
Light of Heaven


Islam and Apostasy
Ansar Al-'Adl


Apostasy and coming back to islam 4 times
Abu Zakariya

How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Messenger was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

(As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.

Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be respited.

Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.

[Surah al-'Imran 3:86-90]
Reply

Amadeus85
09-01-2008, 11:19 PM
[QUOTE='Abd-al Latif;999079]


Any sound minded person can see that these documentaries are biased against Islam and Muslim, edited and prepared by foolish journalists to incite hatred and enmity towards Islam and Muslims.
Trust me that the most responsible for creating dislike to Islam in Europe are (except terrorists who use your religion) those preachers of hatred and totalitarism, who must be expelled from this continent for our and your good.

Islam preaches the peaceful message that it always has but know that islam is not like other religions, if you slap a Muslim in the face don't expect him to offer you the other cheek. If a Muslim is slapped in the face he will slap you back hard.
Obviously in some european mosques the message is not really peaceful and this is the problem shown in documentary.
Reply

Ishbah
09-01-2008, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
context please or it looks real bad or dare I say a distortion.


The types of apostasy
Faizah


Death Penalty for Apostasy in Islam
Michael

Apostasy in Christianity.
Light of Heaven

Islam and Apostasy
Ansar Al-'Adl

Apostasy and coming back to islam 4 times
Abu Zakariya

My point is that it says a similar thing in the Bible; I cannot remember the exact chapter and verse. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it said similar in the Torah, all three holy books have many, many similar passages.

British law (and often morals and sense of justice) is based on Christianity, therefore has its bases in Biblical law. However the British public, as whole, do not have the Christian religious knowledge to see why this is, or that Christianity, Islam and Judaism have so many similarities over contentious issues and therefore would be offended by the teachings displayed on the C4 show tonight. Surely, none of us can be surprised by this?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
09-01-2008, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Trust me that the most responsible for creating dislike to Islam in Europe are (except terrorists who use your religion) those preachers of hatred and totalitarism, who must be expelled from this continent for our and your good.

Obviously in some european mosques the message is not really peaceful and this is the problem shown in documentary.
Have you ever met these preachers? Or have you only ever heard of them on TV? I've been a muslim all my life and I must admit i'm still to meet one of them.
Reply

Abu Muslim
09-02-2008, 12:23 AM
The "extremist" with the big beard who quoted the hadeeth about jews fighting with Muslims, ya know shaykh Feiz. He's on Dhikrullah forums and also runs classes on it

http://www.dhikrullah.com/forum

opps, did I say that too loud hehe.
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Fazl Ahmad
09-02-2008, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Trust me that the most responsible for creating dislike to Islam in Europe are (except terrorists who use your religion) those preachers of hatred and totalitarism, who must be expelled from this continent for our and your good.
If Britain and Europe truly is a secular region of the world, than why are they interfering in the private affairs of a masjid and Muslim community. Don't Muslims have the right to preach and learn about their religion without the government or media harrassing them? For example, in the documentary, many of the things which their "preachers" were preaching were straight quotes from Quran or Hadith. One man was saying that during the akhr az zaman (end times), when Eesa (alaihi salam) will return to this world, there will be a great battle against the Dajjal and his followers (70 thousand jews), and the Muslims will defeat them. During the battle, even the trees will speak and tell the Muslims the hidden location of the Jews. This is what our religion teaches, and we have a right to know it. Imagine if the media infiltrated a church which was preaching about the apocalypse and the book of revelation, which says that there will also be a great war in the future when Jesus comes back. Jesus himself will do a lot of killing, and his robes will be soaked in blood. Imagine if the media makes a documentary saying a fundamentalist christian church is preaching hate and violence?!
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 07:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fazl Ahmad
Don't Muslims have the right to preach and learn about their religion . . . . . many of the things which their "preachers" were preaching were straight quotes from Quran or Hadith. . . . This is what our religion teaches, and we have a right to know it.
I think the short answer is NO (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong).

In the UK you it is illegal to preach hatred, violence and intolerance to other races or religions.

It is against the law to suggest that someone should kill someone for any reason.

It is against the law to suggest that someone should stone or lash someone for any reason.

It is against the law to teach people to hate another section of society who are a different race or religion.

It is not against the law to teach people that you should not take a particular race or religious group as your 'friends' but it isn't doing a lot to endear the local population twoards Muslims.
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 07:48 AM
The preacher in the documentary said that the Qur’an forbade Muslims from taking non Muslims as friends.

In an earlier post a link was left suggesting the answer. That link is

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

The verse quoted is:
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.]

The reply given is:
In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states:
The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

The subtle point here is – what is the difference between friendly and friend. The reply suggests that Muslims can be friendly towards non Muslims but there is a difference between being ‘friendly towards someone and being their friend.
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 07:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, put him to death.”
I don't know if it says something similar in the Bible or any other book and I don't care, wherever it is said it must be condemned. A leading Muslim cleric should go public and condemn the quoted verse. Why isn’t that happening?
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 07:54 AM
AND, I'd like to know how those two women got into the country, what they are doing here and why they aren't being deported?
Reply

doorster
09-02-2008, 08:07 AM
call the Home Office and ask them! you keep confusing us with people in charge of UK
Reply

Fazl Ahmad
09-02-2008, 08:24 AM

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
A leading Muslim cleric should go public and condemn the quoted verse
Thinker this is sacred month of Ramadan, please dont talk bad about the Holy Quran or hadith of Prophet Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam). If you have problem with our religion you are on the wrong board.
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 08:48 AM
And then there was the young girl who, with pencil poised over her notebook, asked “and after he is thrown from the mountain must he be stoned to death?”

It was like she was asking about a recipe to make a cake or like she was anticipating some futures question in her Islamic studies GCSE like:

Your next door neighbour announces that he is homosexual, do you:

(a) take him to a high mountain and throw him off;
(b) stone him to death;
(c) take him to a high mountain and throw him off and then stone him to death.

I was waiting for the follow up question – “if he’s already dead after he’s been thrown from the mountain must we still stone him?”

Skye Ephémérine help me out on this, you’re good at answering hard questions.
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 08:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fazl Ahmad
Thinker this is sacred month of Ramadan, please dont talk bad about the Holy Quran or hadith of Prophet Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam). If you have problem with our religion you are on the wrong board.

I am not a Muslim but as Ramadan is a time when Muslims are called upon to re-evaluate their lives, to make peace with those who have wronged you, to strengthen ties with family and friends and to do away with bad habits, it seems like the right time to destroy and false accusations made against Islamic teachings.

I strive, in all my postings not to offend anybody but I can't accept that asking legitimate questions should be regarded as offensive.
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Thinker
09-02-2008, 09:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
call the Home Office and ask them!
Done :)
Reply

Thinker
09-02-2008, 09:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fazl Ahmad


Thinker this is sacred month of Ramadan, please dont talk bad about the Holy Quran or hadith of Prophet Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam).
Hi

I've just re-read my posts and I can't see anything I have said that could be construed as 'speaking bad about the Holy Quran or hadith of Prophet Muhammad.' I belive all I have done is re-iterated what others have said and asked for clarification. In fact I am asking you and others to contradict the bad things said by others.
Reply

Uthman
09-02-2008, 09:57 AM
Hi Thinker,

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I don't know if it says something similar in the Bible or any other book and I don't care, wherever it is said it must be condemned. A leading Muslim cleric should go public and condemn the quoted verse. Why isn’t that happening?
For the correct understanding (in context, I must add) of Islam and apostasy, see this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html

The thread in question is now closed, so if you still have any issues after reading it, I suggest creating a new thread.

Regards
Reply

Uthman
09-02-2008, 10:07 AM
Link to watch it online
Reply

mkh4JC
09-02-2008, 10:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Unfortunately you have to live in the U.K. to watch the documentary. Is it on youtube by chance?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ishbah
My point is that it says a similar thing in the Bible; I cannot remember the exact chapter and verse. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it said similar in the Torah, all three holy books have many, many similar passages.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say kill those who depart from the faith. Jesus himself is quoted as saying to his disciples, 'Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.' Matthew: 26:52.

It's true that this was the case in the Old Testament, but that was during a time when God was trying to establish the only Godly nation on Earth, so they had to be pure and set apart to be instruments of the will of God.
Reply

Uthman
09-02-2008, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Good link.

Here is another:

Misquoted Verse #15
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Uthman
09-02-2008, 10:41 AM
Hi Fedos,

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Unfortunately you have to live in the U.K. to watch the documentary. Is it on youtube by chance?
My apologies, I didn't realise. I just checked and it's on youtube. Links:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5
Reply

mkh4JC
09-02-2008, 10:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Hi Fedos,



My apologies, I didn't realise. I just checked and it's on youtube. Links:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5
Thanks. I'm about to check it out.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
09-02-2008, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I don't know if it says something similar in the Bible or any other book and I don't care, wherever it is said it must be condemned. A leading Muslim cleric should go public and condemn the quoted verse. Why isn’t that happening?
A leading muslim cleric will never go public and condemn the verses, rather he will praise whatever was bought by Allah and His messenger.

If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?

None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
Reply

doorster
09-02-2008, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
A leading muslim clerc will never go public and condemn the verses, rather he will praise whatever was bought by Allah and His messenger.

If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?

None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all
did the death penalty not have something to do with stopping kuffaar infiltrating Muslim ranks and then changing sides mid-stream to demoralize them?
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aamirsaab
09-02-2008, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
did the death penalty not have something to do with stopping kuffaar infiltrating Muslim ranks and then changing sides mid-stream to demoralize them?
Indeed it does.
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doorster
09-02-2008, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Indeed it does.
Thank you my brother!!
wa salaam alaikum
Reply

Amadeus85
09-02-2008, 12:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I think the short answer is NO (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong).

In the UK you it is illegal to preach hatred, violence and intolerance to other races or religions.

It is against the law to suggest that someone should kill someone for any reason.

It is against the law to suggest that someone should stone or lash someone for any reason.

It is against the law to teach people to hate another section of society who are a different race or religion.

It is not against the law to teach people that you should not take a particular race or religious group as your 'friends' but it isn't doing a lot to endear the local population twoards Muslims.
I must say Thinker that you, the Brittish people, are somehow equally responsible for this.
It is you, Britts, who entered your borders to hundred thousands of muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh or India.
You believed in the utopy of multiculturalism. You didnt listen to wise people who were warning about the danger of creating of muslim ghettos in your own brittish cities.
It sounds not polite but you must now reap what you saw.
Firstly you should not punish the immigrants but your own brittish people, politics, journalists, people of media, who were preaching the new gospel of multiculturalism and silenced every critics of it.
Reply

aamirsaab
09-02-2008, 01:46 PM
:sl:
Thread re-opened.
Reply

Uthman
10-11-2008, 12:01 PM
George Galloway clashes C4 over Undercover Mosque program


Youtube clip ^^ Must watch!
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Al-Hanbali
10-11-2008, 12:58 PM
^ that was actually kinda humorous to watch...
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Uthman
10-11-2008, 01:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Saifur-Rahmaan
^ that was actually kinda humorous to watch...
Innit. Who would you say 'won' the debate?
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chacha_jalebi
10-11-2008, 01:34 PM
that presenter was shocked and he was defendin himself, i wouldnt say georgy won the debate, because he was the presenter and he just like finished the debate off...

which program is this, is it on youtube in full....
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Uthman
10-11-2008, 01:38 PM
It's on Press TV, which I have gathered to be a UK-based Iranian channel or something like that.
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aamirsaab
10-11-2008, 01:50 PM
:sl:
Galloway did have a point. He should have mentioned the questionable editing of the program (though, I didn't see the sequel: undercover mosque returns). Still, I did think the quality of that dispatches program was weak; they've had much better ones before and after so I don't really understand why they'd show this program. It's like you have a program saying: Muslims don't fit the negative stereotype. And then you follow it up with: ''look at these muslims, preaching XYZ in their mosques!''

Oh well.
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czgibson
10-12-2008, 07:06 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Innit. Who would you say 'won' the debate?
Galloway got completely obliterated in the discussion. It was a 100% knockout.

I sometimes agree with Galloway's opinions, and think he's one of the finest British orators in contemporary life, but he was clearly beaten on this occasion.

His opponent didn't exactly behave with good grace, it has to be said. Perhaps he simply couldn't believe how fatuous Galloway's line of questioning was.

Peace
Reply

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