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View Full Version : If you love Islam so much wouldn’t you be happier living in a Muslim country.



Thinker
08-29-2008, 04:35 PM
This is a difficult question to ask as there is no nice way of asking it; whatever groups of words I use it could be interpreted as offensive - I mean no offence I just don’t understand.

The blunt question is:

If you love Islam so much wouldn’t you be happier living in a Muslim country.

Three men from Blackburn have just been charged with terrorist offences. I may be wrong but I presume theses men are people of Pakistani origin; if your hate this country so much why not go and live in Pakistan?
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Afifa
08-29-2008, 04:46 PM
:sl:

It were actually 2 men from blackburn and one from Accrington
nd it isnt about hating your country...only Allah knows if those men were guilty or not but yh it would be better living in an islamic country but many people who have grown up here prefer living here. I know i do. Our families and friends are here so we would rather live here. If we can practise our faith and religon here with peace we might as well live here surrounded by family and friends.
I dont know what those men were planning on doing but if they did have issues i tihnk they went about the wrong way with it.
and about living in pakistan .. most fmailies have orignated from places like pakistan and india but in order to live better and easier lives thier grandfathers and forefathers moved from thier to here so why move back? The quality of living here is better that thier even if it is easier to practise religon thier.

:w:
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جوري
08-29-2008, 04:50 PM
There are no countries running under sharia law.. so there are no Islamic countries per se.. they are all pretty much the same.. I think England alone owes itself totally to the worlld with its heinous imperious history.. I am surprised it isn't divided between Hong Kong, China, Asia, Africa and the middle east.. for it now to define to the world what civility is-- but I do digress...

Where do you propose Muslim westerners go?
only 20% of Muslims are actually from the middle east...

Yeah.. you are right... there is no good way to ask such a question, so why do you? just to peddle in everyday banter and bromides?

cheers
Reply

Muezzin
08-29-2008, 05:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
This is a difficult question to ask as there is no nice way of asking it; whatever groups of words I use it could be interpreted as offensive - I mean no offence I just don’t understand.

The blunt question is:

If you love Islam so much wouldn’t you be happier living in a Muslim country.

Three men from Blackburn have just been charged with terrorist offences. I may be wrong but I presume theses men are people of Pakistani origin; if your hate this country so much why not go and live in Pakistan?
I'm afraid that's an unfair question.

You're presupposing that these men are indicative of every single (Pakistani-originated) Muslim. Not very good methodology, although I can see why you asked the question.

If I were in your position, I would rephrase the question: 'If the men charged with terrorist offences love Islam and hate (insert non-Muslim country of the month) so much, why don't they move to (insert Muslim country of the month)?'

To which I would answer 'Because they're quite possibly pyromaniacs'.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by x-Afifa-x
:sl:
It were actually 2 men from blackburn and one from Accrington
nd it isnt about hating your country...only Allah knows if those men were guilty or not but yh it would be better living in an islamic country but many people who have grown up here prefer living here. I know i do. Our families and friends are here so we would rather live here. If we can practise our faith and religon here with peace we might as well live here surrounded by family and friends.
I dont know what those men were planning on doing but if they did have issues i tihnk they went about the wrong way with it.
and about living in pakistan .. most fmailies have orignated from places like pakistan and india but in order to live better and easier lives thier grandfathers and forefathers moved from thier to here so why move back? The quality of living here is better that thier even if it is easier to practise religon thier.

:w:

Good answer - thank you for your honesty
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crayon
08-29-2008, 07:08 PM
To some people, the worldly benefits of living in a non muslim majority country outweigh the worldly benefits of living in a muslim majority country. By worldly benefit I mean things like a better education, better standard of living, etc. So some people would rather have to drive an hour to get to a mosque in order to get a certain degree from an ivy league university. Some would prefer to stay in a muslim majority country and have to exert less effort to lower their gaze than to make 2 or 3 times their paycheck in their home country. So it depends on the muslim, really.

Also, I know people who are really religious and go to the west (mainly the US and Canada), because they are allowed to fully practice their religion there, more than they would be in many so called democracies in the arab/middle eastern world.

Some other people who are second or third generation immigrants consider the country their parents came to their home, so they have nowhere else to go, and wouldn't want to leave anyway. If some place is your home you're going to try to make the best of it, not just get up and leave when things get tough.

Anyway, my 2 cents..
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Uthman
08-29-2008, 07:09 PM
A Muslim country doesn't necessarily constitute an Islamic one.
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The_Prince
08-29-2008, 07:14 PM
no they dont have to go live in Muslim countries. England is theyre country, they were born there. see your just a bully, you want people who have different opinions than you, and who oppose the system to be silent and LEAVE.

Muslims in the west WHO ARE FROM THE WEST have EVERY RIGHT to speak out against the societies their living in for its backwardness, as well as critisizing the goverment for its crimes and atrocities. its their country, they want to fix it up and have every right to do so. how about you leave these countries if you dont like it, now you will say but its MY COUNTRY, its not your country only but also for the Muslims who were born and raised there, so get used to it.
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Amadeus85
08-29-2008, 07:21 PM
The question is bit xenophobic, political incorrect, or someone would say- racist.
But I think that it is good q.
The answer is - Muslims prefer to live in West because ,except few oil rich arabic countries , the life in whole West is much easier and better than in the muslim world.
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roohani.doctor
08-29-2008, 07:21 PM
having lived in a muslim Arab country for almost all my life, i can tell you that its getting harder and harder to practice islam even there, western culture has seeped in everywhere, and I know friends/people who received criticism for wearing hijab in a mall, or just looked down on because they cover themselves (in a muslim country)....my point is the country doesnt really matter that much anymore, many of these "terrorists" terrorize others in the name of islam, but islam doesnt allow terrorism, therefore these people arent exactly practicing islam....
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qassy!
08-29-2008, 07:22 PM
Well i getter a better living of standerd here instead of the UK
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I think England alone owes itself totally to the worlld with its heinous imperious history
I have to say that I am always irritated by the colonial imperialist crap. I would expect that every black person in ‘the west’ wakes up every morning and thanks God that their ancestor was taken (as a slave) from the destitution that is Africa and relative comfort and safety that is the west – I would. AND, likewise I expect that every Pakistani in the UK thanks God that England colonised Pakistan thus giving their parents the opportunity to move to the UK to raise their children in a place which is safe, secure and which provides standards and opportunities they wouldn’t get in Pakistan – I would.

To say that you or your parents suffered because ‘the old country’ was one a colony is, frankly, crap. If you think otherwise you have never been to Africa / Pakistan – I have.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
To some people, the worldly benefits of living in a non muslim majority country outweigh the worldly benefits of living in a muslim majority country. By worldly benefit I mean things like a better education, better standard of living, etc. So some people would rather have to drive an hour to get to a mosque in order to get a certain degree from an ivy league university. Some would prefer to stay in a muslim majority country and have to exert less effort to lower their gaze than to make 2 or 3 times their paycheck in their home country. So it depends on the muslim, really.

Also, I know people who are really religious and go to the west (mainly the US and Canada), because they are allowed to fully practice their religion there, more than they would be in many so called democracies in the arab/middle eastern world.

Some other people who are second or third generation immigrants consider the country their parents came to their home, so they have nowhere else to go, and wouldn't want to leave anyway. If some place is your home you're going to try to make the best of it, not just get up and leave when things get tough.

Anyway, my 2 cents..
Good answer - thank you
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Amadeus85
08-29-2008, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I have to say that I am always irritated by the colonial imperialist crap. I would expect that every black person in ‘the west’ wakes up every morning and thanks God that their ancestor was taken (as a slave) from the destitution that is Africa and relative comfort and safety that is the west – I would. AND, likewise I expect that every Pakistani in the UK thanks God that England colonised Pakistan thus giving their parents the opportunity to move to the UK to raise their children in a place which is safe, secure and which provides standards and opportunities they wouldn’t get in Pakistan – I would.

To say that you or your parents suffered because ‘the old country’ was one a colony is, frankly, crap. If you think otherwise you have never been to Africa / Pakistan – I have.
Thinker, you are from France, Im sure that you know that many of those muslims came to Europe because they were invited and needed by european economies. Since 60's and 70's also your country needed cheap workers, from Morocco and Algeria, and now you have about 5 million muslims aboard.
My country, Poland, was under communism these times, thats why we almost dont have africana nd asian immigrants (except few thousands vietnamese). But in future we will have to bring some. So I think that the globalization took important role in building african and asian enclaves in our continent.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
no they dont have to go live in Muslim countries. England is theyre country, they were born there. see your just a bully, you want people who have different opinions than you, and who oppose the system to be silent and LEAVE.

Muslims in the west WHO ARE FROM THE WEST have EVERY RIGHT to speak out against the societies their living in for its backwardness, as well as critisizing the goverment for its crimes and atrocities. its their country, they want to fix it up and have every right to do so. how about you leave these countries if you dont like it, now you will say but its MY COUNTRY, its not your country only but also for the Muslims who were born and raised there, so get used to it.
I have lived and worked in many other countries right across the globe and I can tell you that NO other country would offer the welcome and tolerance given ou by the UK.

I am not saying and have never said 'get out.' In fact I stay; stay here, join us, integrate with us.

Of course you have the right to speak out about anything - that's one of the benefits of living in the UK. If I were in Pakistan I would not have the same freedoms you enjoy here.

Do you know what your life and the life of your family and children and future of your children would be like if you lived in Pakistan? I am grateful that my ancestors created the prosperity and freedom I enjoy, why are you not grateful for the same thing?
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Tornado
08-29-2008, 07:44 PM
It would be a much better question if there was actually a true Muslim nation where all rules would be in accordance with Islamic rules and laws. Anything else I don't think really counts because then it's just a nation with Muslim people.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Thinker, you are from France, .
Hi, Yes, that's bit misleading - I am in France but I am British, retired and living a little closer to the sun.
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Amadeus85
08-29-2008, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi, Yes, that's bit misleading - I am in France but I am British, retired and living a little closer to the sun.
Ok good to know.:D Welcome aboard.
I ahve heard that quite a few Brittons leave UK and move to France or Spain.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
The question is bit xenophobic, political incorrect, or someone would say- racist.
I AM NOT a racist. Perhaps because I have spent most of my life in third world counties I am not as 'policially correct' as I should be.

For many years I worked and lived in (black) African countries and I have had many conversations over a beer with native (educated) Africans on the subject of the 'dogs dinner' that is Africa. I have also worked in the US and had similar (albeit more diffcult) conversation with African Americans. Your native black African knows excatly why his country is the mess it is, he doesn't blame anybody but his own people. That's not true of all black Americans all of whom have never visited Africa (those that have are changed by the experience).

I also sepnt some time in India and Pakistan in the early 80's and I spoke to old people who remembered the Raj and remebered it as a time when their lives and standards and conditions of living were better.
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The_Prince
08-29-2008, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I have lived and worked in many other countries right across the globe and I can tell you that NO other country would offer the welcome and tolerance given ou by the UK.

I am not saying and have never said 'get out.' In fact I stay; stay here, join us, integrate with us.

Of course you have the right to speak out about anything - that's one of the benefits of living in the UK. If I were in Pakistan I would not have the same freedoms you enjoy here.

Do you know what your life and the life of your family and children and future of your children would be like if you lived in Pakistan? I am grateful that my ancestors created the prosperity and freedom I enjoy, why are you not grateful for the same thing?
first of all im not from the UK. and i grew up in the UAE, ive only been living in the UK for three years now because of studies, which btw i pay 7300 pounds a year for from my own money for the university. and once im done i plan to live in the UAE again because i cant live in a none-Muslim country. infact there was a French school opposite to the school i attended in the UAE :D

and you say benefits, lol there is nothing that i have here in London that i didnt have in Abu Dhabi, so getttttttttt over yourself. infact in Abu Dhabi i had more than here, i could walk all over the city with no problems, here there are some areas that are a war zone where you will either get stabbed, shot or mugged, just last week i was walking in the street beside the thames river a nice area and 2 idiots wanted to mug me! oh yes also in Abu Dhabi i had 2 mosques near my house, and i could hear the athan everyday.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
first of all im not from the UK. and i grew up in the UAE . . . in Abu Dhabi,
Most of the Muslims in the UK are from Pakistan (I believe) and so I make presumptions.

OK Abu Dhabi, I have also worked in Abu Dhabi (albeit never long enough to move out of the hotel). You know spoke previously oy your right to speak out etc., and I agreed you have those freedoms in the UK. You alos then know, as I do, that I would not have those same freedoms in Aby Dhabi.

You are obviously a devout Muslim and will be happier living in a Muslim country. As an old man I would urge you to make the most of your time in the UK by learning the history (how did this country develop into what it is) and embracing the culture it will serve you better later in life. I can assure you that by the time you reach 40 you will look back upon your idealistic vision of a world where evrybody spends most of their time praying as immature.
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crayon
08-29-2008, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I can assure you that by the time you reach 40 you will look back upon your idealistic vision of a world where evrybody spends most of their time praying as immature.
How patronizing.
:enough!:
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Tornado
08-29-2008, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I would urge you to make the most of your time in the UK by learning the history (how did this country develop into what it is) and embracing the culture it will serve you better later in life.
NOooo. I urge you to learn about the best country in the world and that's Canada !!! :D

Meh, learning about the history of any single country would probably be fascinating. What makes the western countries great in my opinion is the freedom of speech. If someone doesn't value freedom of speech, then the western countries wouldn't offer anything more than say Abu Dhabi in the_Prince's case.
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aamirsaab
08-29-2008, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
This is a difficult question to ask as there is no nice way of asking it; whatever groups of words I use it could be interpreted as offensive - I mean no offence I just don’t understand.

The blunt question is:

If you love Islam so much wouldn’t you be happier living in a Muslim country.

....
I'm actually pakistani myself. Unfortunately my homeland (pakistan) has suffered from 20 plus years of corruption (due to a military coup). Currently, it has no leader, the economy is in a crisis, police can be bribed and the legal system is ILEGAL!

Other ''Islamic'' countries that come to mind are Afghanistan and Iraq. Both of which are currently being bombed. Then of course there is Iran - though this country has probably a year or so before it too gets bombed.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
first of all im not from the UK. and i grew up in the UAE, in Abu Dhabi,

Prince tell the Pakistanis on this site what life is like for Pakistanis working in Abu Dhabi, tell them how their UEA Muslim brothers threat their Pakistani Muslim brothers?

I'd like to see every (UK born) Pakistani spend a month working and living in Abu Dhabi and then come back and tell me what life is like living in the UK.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
How patronizing.

When you get to my age, its allowed.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I'm actually pakistani myself. Unfortunately my homeland (pakistan) has suffered from 20 plus years of corruption (due to a military coup). Currently, it has no leader, the economy is in a crisis, police can be bribed and the legal system is ILEGAL!.

Only 20 years - and the rest! And I can't see any reason why the next 20 years won't be just as corrupt. It's the same in Africa. Next time you're stopped by a policeman in the UK offer him a bribe (if you dare) and see what happens. That's just a small part of the culture you exist in and enjoy.
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جوري
08-29-2008, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I have to say that I am always irritated by the colonial imperialist crap
.
This affects me how?
I would expect that every black person in ‘the west’ wakes up every morning and thanks God that their ancestor was taken (as a slave) from the destitution that is Africa and relative comfort and safety that is the west
Africa is a land mine of diamonds, and natural resources, I suspect if your ancestors weren't and aren't monopolizing and exploiting them still, Afirca wouldn't be destitute!

– I would. AND, likewise I expect that every Pakistani in the UK thanks God that England colonised Pakistan thus giving their parents the opportunity to move to the UK to raise their children in a place which is safe, secure and which provides standards and opportunities they wouldn’t get in Pakistan – I would.
I don't know anything about Pakistan, but I do know that your country has gone through wars priding itself on not losing a single British soldier, because the blood of those whom they have colonized in their parasitic settler style, was so much easier to expend!

To say that you or your parents suffered because ‘the old country’ was one a colony is, frankly, crap. If you think otherwise you have never been to Africa / Pakistan – I have.
My dad was a diplomat, so I have in fact traveled through most of the world, far east, middle east and was born in Tanzania.. so frankly the one full of presumptive crap is you :D!

cheers
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crayon
08-29-2008, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
When you get to my age, its allowed.
Anyone can use that excuse.
Kids, teenagers, people going through their midlife crisis, old people.
Being rude is simply being rude, no matter what age you're at.
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Makky
08-29-2008, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
This is a difficult question to ask as there is no nice way of asking it; whatever groups of words I use it could be interpreted as offensive - I mean no offence I just don’t understand.

The blunt question is:

If you love Islam so much wouldn’t you be happier living in a Muslim country.

I'm there now in a Muslim Country :welcome::thankyou::D
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جوري
08-29-2008, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Anyone can use that excuse.
Kids, teenagers, people going through their midlife crisis, old people.
Being rude is simply rude, no matter what age you're at.
He meant of course as a wernicke's encephalopathy and Korsakoff's psychosis sufferer from all that beer he imbued in 'Africa'..
so perhaps we shouldn't be so harsh? ;D

:w:
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bewildred
08-29-2008, 08:45 PM
Awkay, I lurked enough.

Mr.Thinker, let me first tell you that your condescendence is quite discomforting. Although you claim that your opinion has no shade of xenophobia, it's plain that it's not the case. You can't judge a whole community (Pakistani here) according to the nebulous behaviour of a handful stray black sheep. Plus, I think that you want every Pakistani or Indian person to be thankful to live in the paradise on earth that is England? Come on, it's an insult to your own intelligence. In the global era we live in, it's kind of archaic to cling to your utopias.
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جوري
08-29-2008, 08:50 PM
England is a little turd of an island.. I have always marveled how it manages to keep afloat, and then looked at her royals heinie's crown Jewels and see they are in fact stolen.. then looked around some more and found practically everything in that desolate mildew rain infested state is in fact stolen from some folks or another.. plus they require you to get a TV license? or something to that extent which really tickled me..
I wouldn't worry about 'thinker' it appears he needs to recover much of his gray matter to be on a level!

:w:
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
.
Africa is a land mine of diamonds, and natural resources, I suspect if your ancestors weren't and aren't monopolizing and exploiting them still, Afirca wouldn't be destitute!
Clearly you haven't spent any time in Africa. Africa, the state its in and the reasons for that, is a subject in itself, I'd love to debate it with anyone who has lived there, lived amongst them and debated with them.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
I'm there now in a Muslim CountryD
So what's it like - are you enjoy prosperity, security and freedom?
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جوري
08-29-2008, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Clearly you haven't spent any time in Africa. Africa, the state its in and the reasons for that, is a subject in itself, I'd love to debate it with anyone who has lived there, lived amongst them and debated with them.
Clearely you have a reading impediment?.. I have just told you I was born in east Africa, spent a chunk of my life in north Africa..

You are not debate worthy.. as the simple ethics of debate escape you!
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
England is a little turd of an island.. :
immature
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جوري
08-29-2008, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
- are you enjoy prosperity,?
lol.. for starters he enjoys the privilege of being at least bilingual-- seems even your mother tongue is a bit unmanageable for you?!

cheers
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bewildred
08-29-2008, 09:03 PM
Well, well........
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جوري
08-29-2008, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
immature
eh even with my best effort I unfortunately can't match you in puerility..
Hats off......
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Makky
08-29-2008, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
So what's it like - are you enjoy prosperity, security and freedom?

Prosperity , YESSS

Security , Yesss i can go anywhere 24/7

Freedom , In the west you have more freedom to criticise the president. this is the main difference in the freedom Issue.
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Clearely you have a reading impediment?.. I have just told you I was born in east Africa, spent a chunk of my life in north Africa..

You are not debate worthy.. as the simple ethics of debate escape you!
Hmmm - why do you suggest that I am not qualified to debate Africa with you?

I have spent a large part of my life in Africa albeit all of that on or south of the equator but I believe/suggest that qualifies me to debate the reasons why Africa is a mess.

Ethics of debate - what does that mean?
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Thinker
08-29-2008, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
Prosperity , YESSS

Security , Yesss i can go anywhere 24/7

Freedom , In the west you have more freedom to criticise the president. this is the main difference in the freedom Issue.
prosperity - relative;
security- relative;
freedom od speech - well said
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جوري
08-29-2008, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hmmm - why do you suggest that I am not qualified to debate Africa with you?
for starters I dislike your attitude.. why don't you go focus on your ratbag youth who have just killed a kid from Qatar because they didn't like the way he looked? or do you selectively read?

I have spent a large part of my life in Africa albeit all of that on or south of the equator but I believe/suggest that qualifies me to debate the reasons why Africa is a mess.

Ethics of debate - what does that mean?
I don't care for your list of laurelses save it for your employer!
Africa is a mess because your ilk messed it and have vested interest in keeping it more messed!
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جوري
08-29-2008, 10:06 PM
Qatari boy killed in race attack
David Sapsted, Foreign Correspondent

Last Updated: August 25. 2008 11:48PM UAE / August 25. 2008 7:48PM GMT LONDON // A teenage student from Qatar has died after being beaten in a racially-motivated attack in an English seaside town.

The 16-year-old boy, named yesterday as Mohammed al Majed by Sussex police, died from head injuries on Sunday night following the attack 48 hours earlier in the East Sussex town on Hastings on England’s south coast.

A spokesman for Sussex Police said last night: “Police are currently treating his death as a murder inquiry and are investigating it as racially motivated at this time.”

The teenager was with a group of fellow students from Qatar when they were attacked by a gang of local men outside the USA Fried Chicken and Kebab House, close to the seafront, shortly before midnight on Friday.

He suffered a head injury in the attack and was initially treated at a hospital locally before being transferred to a specialist unit at Kings College Hospital in London, where he died on Sunday.

Three men, aged 17, 18 and 20, were arrested but have since been released on police bail pending further inquiries.

It is understood that the student had been with a party that arrived in Britain from the Gulf about five weeks ago. He was due to return home this weekend.

Chief Insp Natalie Carron said: “The young man’s death is incredibly sad. No matter how rare an incident like this is, the effect on the young man’s family and tragic consequences can only be imagined.”

Police patrols in the centre of Hastings – a town that attracts more than 30,000 foreign students a year, mainly to its English language schools – were being stepped up yesterday, and officers were in talks with colleges to identify any specific problems.

Det Ch Insp Graham Pratt, who is leading the investigation, yesterday appealed for witnesses to the attack to come forward.

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20...610/1013/SPORT

I wouldn't say rare to a country that thrives on racism..
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S_87
08-29-2008, 10:26 PM
not all of us are pakistani or even from a muslim country at all.

the 4th man was actually a muslim revert of english origin for example

why are there many muslims in the west? because to put it bluntly, we dont hate everything about the west :) and in many ways its better than the so called muslim countries
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ayan333
08-29-2008, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
eh even with my best effort I unfortunately can't match you in puerility..
Hats off......
:sl:

anyway sis,hope everythings good...wut part of east africa are you from...ive never been aske dthis but,ignorant plp have asked some of my friends that are from africa ifthey see lions and other wild animals wen they wake up in the morning...so stupid

ok

:w:
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جوري
08-29-2008, 11:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ayan333
:sl:

anyway sis,hope everythings good...wut part of east africa are you from...ive never been aske dthis but,ignorant plp have asked some of my friends that are from africa ifthey see lions and other wild animals wen they wake up in the morning...so stupid

ok

:w:
:sl:
my dad was stationed in Tanzania, Daar As'salaam.. that is where I was born..
and yes that is actually home of the serengeti, which is known for amazing wild life..

:w:
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The_Prince
08-30-2008, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Prince tell the Pakistanis on this site what life is like for Pakistanis working in Abu Dhabi, tell them how their UEA Muslim brothers threat their Pakistani Muslim brothers?

I'd like to see every (UK born) Pakistani spend a month working and living in Abu Dhabi and then come back and tell me what life is like living in the UK.
erm i know some very rich Pakistanis in the UAE, i have good Pakistani friends, and they do just fine.

as for Pakistani and Indian Labors, they make more money in the UAE doing their labor jobs than they would in Pakistan and India, so how about you think of that first.

and you prove your a bigot to Pakistanis, you think that the only job Pakistanis can get in UAE is some cheap labor, think again, in Dubai some of the most powerful and richest people are Indians and Pakistanis, even the princes and sheikhs cant touch them.

secondly, many people get rough jobs, so what? my dad used to work in the desert during ramadan while fasting, and now he has his own company, so whats your point? he even had to once dive under the sea, and actually start going into one big pipe to repair something.

thirdly why dont you tell everyone how you white french people treat the blacks and north africans, what about that? you want to act like your so good you white french people always have your noses in the air treating the others like cr@p.
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Thinker
08-30-2008, 10:02 AM
I talked about Pakistani’s and was accused of being racist. I am not racist, I do not hate Muslims; I do hate stupidity and hypocrisy. I referred to the Pakistanis because the majority of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin and the majority of terrorist incidents in the UK involve Pakistanis. That’s just stating fact. (If I am wrong there I am sure someone will correct me).

In answer to my original question I think the consensus view is that Muslims (even radical Muslims) choose to live in the UK because the UK offers them a better quality of life. (We could go into the detail of why individual aspects of life in the UK is better for UK Muslims than would be their life in Pakistan but in round terms that’s the reason they stay here). Does it not them follow that it would be hypocritical if those people didn’t admit that fact and be grateful (as I am) that the people of this island that came before us created the environment in which we live. And those people are your country, it isn’t the soil beneath your feet that is your country it is the people who built upon it and created the comfort, security and freedom we enjoy – I am grateful to them for that and I believe it is nothing less than hypocritical to enjoy those benefits and not be grateful.

Talking about hypocrites, I know (because I have read it) that they are mentioned many times in the Qur’an. In fact so many times I thought they must have been an ancient tribe as they are often mentioned in the same context as Christians and Jews. I have googled the word and find no trace of such a tribe so must conclude that the Qur’an condemns hypocrisy?
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Musaafirah
08-30-2008, 10:55 AM
Yes, Islam condemns hypocrisy, but what are you trying to get at?
You want the 3rd generation immigrants to be grateful to the older British generation for colonialising the different countries?
What makes you so sure that people from the indian sub-continent and Africa wouldn't have had a better quality of life if the British hadn't invaded the other countries?
Yes, I am grateful for living in the UK.But take that in context, how would it have been now, if the British hadn't set up colonies in the Indian Sub-continent and if the situation there hadn't cascaded on causing this mess?
Have you ever thought of that Thinker?
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Muezzin
08-30-2008, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Only 20 years - and the rest! And I can't see any reason why the next 20 years won't be just as corrupt. It's the same in Africa. Next time you're stopped by a policeman in the UK offer him a bribe (if you dare) and see what happens. That's just a small part of the culture you exist in and enjoy.
This post makes you sound like a hostile, patronising skinhead. Seriously. You're presupposing that the person you're replying to is regularly stopped by police (which could be tongue-in-cheek, natch), and then dare to imply that he doesn't appreciate the culture he exists in and enjoys?

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I talked about Pakistani’s and was accused of being racist. I am not racist, I do not hate Muslims; I do hate stupidity and hypocrisy.I referred to the Pakistanis because the majority of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin and the majority of terrorist incidents in the UK involve Pakistanis. That’s just stating fact. (If I am wrong there I am sure someone will correct me).
Do you not see how this can make an outsider believe that you think that all Pakistanis exhibit 'stupidity and hypocrisy'? Granted, that's not racism technically, as much as xenophobia. I'm not calling you a racist or a xenophobe, I'm just saying choose your words carefully, especially on the Internet.

There's political incorrectness for the sake of truth and there's clumsiness.

In answer to my original question I think the consensus view is that Muslims (even radical Muslims) choose to live in the UK because the UK offers them a better quality of life. (We could go into the detail of why individual aspects of life in the UK is better for UK Muslims than would be their life in Pakistan but in round terms that’s the reason they stay here). Does it not them follow that it would be hypocritical if those people didn’t admit that fact and be grateful (as I am) that the people of this island that came before us created the environment in which we live. And those people are your country, it isn’t the soil beneath your feet that is your country it is the people who built upon it and created the comfort, security and freedom we enjoy – I am grateful to them for that and I believe it is nothing less than hypocritical to enjoy those benefits and not be grateful.
Most British people, Pakistani descent or no, are indeed grateful. Sure, certain people moan and complain but if they really hated the UK, they would have moved. Funny thing about this attitude of 'people who don't like it should move' is that it only seems to be applied to people considered to be 'foreign'. An Afro-Carribean, a Pakistani, an Indian or a Pole says something like 'Sometimes I don't like this country' and it's out with the pitchforks and the plane tickets. A dyed in the wool Anglo-Saxon says the same thing and it's all nods and downing another pint.

Who are your opponents? All Pakistanis? Those particular ones who turn to violence?

Or do you believe that all Pakistanis are suspect by default? To be honest, to me, the general tone of your posts seems to be of the generic BNP-style 'Pakis should bugger off'. The reason why I think so is because you continually presuppose that every single Brit of Pakistani descent must either agree with terorrists or otherwise be 'ungrateful' by virtue of (ancestral) nationality. Say it ain't so.

As someone of Pakistani descent, I can say that I am grateful to live in the UK and love it as my home. I also love Pakistan. Both these countries' governments, however, sometimes disagree with me. It is my right to voice my disagreement. In the case of the UK, I can voice my disagreement in speech, writing or by voting. It is nobody's right to 'voice' disagreement by breaking the law and those who break the law should be punished.

Talking about hypocrites, I know (because I have read it) that they are mentioned many times in the Qur’an. In fact so many times I thought they must have been an ancient tribe as they are often mentioned in the same context as Christians and Jews. I have googled the word and find no trace of such a tribe so must conclude that the Qur’an condemns hypocrisy?
It does.
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Thinker
08-30-2008, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You sound like a hostile, patronising skinhead.

Or do you believe that all Pakistanis are suspect by default? To be honest, to me, the general tone of your posts seems to be of the generic BNP-style 'Pakis should bugger off'. The reason why I think so is because you continually presuppose that every single Brit of Pakistani descent must agree with terorrists by virtue of nationality. Say it ain't so.
Unfortunately I am a skin head, not by choice but because my hair's fallen out.

I have tried to choose my words so as not to cause offence. I hoped that I could ask hard questions in this forum without someone waving the 'politicaly correct' 'your a racist' banners. As I explained I chose to mention Pakistani's in particular purely because they are the majority.

If anyone has been offended by anything I have said, I apologies as that was not my intention. That said, I think that anyone who gets upset just because someone asks about Pakistani's or any other group is a little thin skinned. I might for example have posed the question - "are there too many Polish people in the UK?" Does the simple act of asking the question mean the person asking is racist?

As for the suggestion that Pakistan is the mess it is today because it was once a British colony - that's ludicrous. The Brits left Pakistan with a stable ethical framework for government, that was 61 years ago, 61 years later, living conditions for the poor are worse than when the Brits left. That's another thing alongside stupidty and hypocracry that p**** me off - people who won't take responsibility for their own actions, always wanting to blame their failures on others.
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Muezzin
08-30-2008, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Unfortunately I am a skin head, not by choice but because my hair's fallen out.
How sad.

I have tried to choose my words so as not to cause offence. I hoped that I could ask hard questions in this forum without someone waving the 'politicaly correct' 'your a racist' banners. As I explained I chose to mention Pakistani's in particular purely because they are the majority.

If anyone has been offended by anything I have said, I apologies as that was not my intention.
Apology accepted.

That said, I think that anyone who gets upset just because someone asks about Pakistani's or any other group is a little thin skinned. I might for example have posed the question - "are there too many Polish people in the UK?" Does the simple act of asking the question mean the person asking is racist?
Please. I didn't take offence to your asking the question, as you'll see in my reply on page 1. I took offence to your continual implication that all Brits of Pakistani descent must have some sort of hive-mind that hellbends them against being proud of Britain.

You know, things like this:

format_quote Originally Posted by You
Prince tell the Pakistanis on this site what life is like for Pakistanis working in Abu Dhabi, tell them how their UEA Muslim brothers threat their Pakistani Muslim brothers?

I'd like to see every (UK born) Pakistani spend a month working and living in Abu Dhabi and then come back and tell me what life is like living in the UK.
Why say this unless you believe that every 'UK born Pakistani' (a contextual nonsense, but anyway) is ungrateful in some way for their living conditions in the UK? Stop this presumptuous condescension and we'll get along just fine.

As for the suggestion that Pakistan is the mess it is today because it was once a British colony - that's ludicrous. The Brits left Pakistan with a stable ethical framework for government, that was 61 years ago, 61 years later, living conditions for the poor are worse than when the Brits left. That's another thing alongside stupidty and hypocracry that p**** me off - people who won't take responsibility for their own actions, always wanting to blame their failures on others.
What do ya know, we have something in common.
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BNDGR
08-30-2008, 05:56 PM
This is only my perception....
As a new Muslim I understand the way some people view terrorism and things they here in the news as that is the way Muslims are and they as a whole behave in this terrible way. I never had met anyone who was a Muslim until this year, and it has completely opened my eyes that westerners are bombarded with news and information that is so one sided, I had thought too that violence was the way of all Muslims, and to fear them and thier differences and beleifs.
I can't say I know everything about Islam but I am learning and I can now see past the one sided views and violence that is happening as extremists and not representing Muslim people as a whole.
Like in every religion and with people in general there are good and bad, some who take things to the extreme and misinterpret thier religion and what it teaches and use it in wrong ways, and there are others who follow it and its teaching who live thier lives with compassion and faith and make the world better. This applies to everyone not just Muslims
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جوري
08-30-2008, 06:42 PM
The Muslim world has done splendid for centuries until colonialists decided to dismantle it, with the divide and conquer policy, they've instituted ideas of pan-Arabism, nationalism, they have taken tribes in Africa that have nothing to do with each other and lumped them together so they are constantly at war, they have taken a wedge out of Egypt gave it to Sudan counting on a rift between the two neighboring countries thereby demanding that their' peaceful loving' forces remain in the region to suck the blood of its citizens, they have taken over the Suez canal and all of its profits using Muslim laborers, they have forced opium trade on china, where in the end it had to concede to an open door policy to just to uphold its pride, they have taken over Hong Kong with false promise to give its folks British citizenship, and the minute they were on British soil they were kicked out.. They have shot at large rallies of peace marches in India... They have brought hatred, disease and misery on all that is in their path, and they wonder why folks that were part of the strongest empires to grace this earth, an empire to which even Peter the great had to retreat is now in the worst economic, political shape...and have the nerve to say people should take responsibility.. Well I agree.. you can't treat naegleria floweri with acetaminophen.... we all know where the problem is from!

truly reminds me of this verse from the Quran

2:11 And when they are told, "Do not spread corruption on earth," they answer, "We are but improving things!"
2:12 Oh, verily, it is they, they who are spreading corruption but they perceive it not? [9]
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Thinker
08-30-2008, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
The Muslim world has done splendid for centuries until colonialists decided to dismantle it, [9]
And, if you believe that Pakistan is the mess that it is because it was once a British colony how do you explain the success India is enjoying as it progresses in leaps and bounds towards rivalling China as the worlds next super power, when India was also ruled by the same Brits and left with the same framework of a civil service and functioning government?
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جوري
08-30-2008, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
And, if you believe that Pakistan is the mess that it is because it was once a British colony how do you explain the success India is enjoying as it progresses in leaps and bounds towards rivalling China as the worlds next super power, when India was also ruled by the same Brits and left with the same framework of a civil service and functioning government?
Any small kaffir country that can be an ally to colonial amero/british/Israeli interest will be helped along..
China used to always side with Arabic nations in the U.N out of the six countries involved, we could always count on them.. now with Israeli/china trade secrets.. it is a thing of the past.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A961948260

http://www.meforum.org/article/926

read a little it is common knowledge, not CIA hidden files..

anything that keeps any effort to unite the Muslim world will be nipped in the bud..it is really that simple

england is solely behind the Ahmadi sect not that it worked out but... pls feel free to go ahead and read about that too.. it is easy to google!

cheers
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Thinker
08-31-2008, 10:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Any small kaffir country that can be an ally to colonial amero/british/Israeli interest will be helped along..
cheers
OK I’ve read all the stuff you posted including the stuff on Ahmadi and frankly I believe it comes down once again to blaming others for your own failings. Is there nobody out there who take responsibility for their own failures?

In broad terms Africa and the Middle East are failures. They are a failure because although they have huge wealth lying under their feet, that wealth is not reflected in the prosperity of the people and the advancement of their nation. This is not because they were once a colony of because there is some conspiracy against them, it’s because they are badly managed by their leaders who are corrupt. Some of you will agree with that statement because you don’t like the leader in question and might even believe that the answer is an Islamic state. The problem with that idea is that it’s not just the current leader that has badly managed those countries it’s also all the previously leaders. And, that same mismanagement and corruption exists in counties which are Islamic republics.

The first step to recovery is to stop blaming others; the next step is to change a 1000 year culture which recognises what we (in the west) see as corruption as normal everyday life and business.
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------
08-31-2008, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
A Muslim country doesn't necessarily constitute an Islamic one.
:salamext:

Snap.
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Muezzin
08-31-2008, 11:25 AM
Evidently, all discussion of the original question has been exhausted.

Thread closed.
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