A thought experiment on the "true" path

[Gator]

OK, for those statistically inclined, a thought experiment on which is the “true” religion and maybe would answer does god exist at all. (This is of course impossible, and lets not split obvious hairs, but it’s the journey not the destination).

I thought of an initial premise of how we could at least provide some direction as to which religion/philosophy is right. This of course is assuming we had the ability to collect the data we would need.

Initial Premise – Believing in the correct religion must confer some benefit.

[Contra-argument - Now this may not be the case because if you believe in an afterlife, God may not confer any benefit here. If this is your position please state sources from holy texts that state you get no greater favor here in this life (i.e. your god doesn’t promise you at least once some sort of prosperity or happiness)].

If we were to decide upon some measurable variable that satisfies all the religion’s parameters, we could test it on a statistical hypothesis based on our assumed ability to collect the data.

If the measurable variable, statistically favors one or more (or ALL!) relgion/philosophy over another then we would have some evidence. If none is statistically significant would that lend credence to the atheistic philosophy?

OK that’s it. As an example, my first thought was lethal cancer rates among religions. We could get the cancer rate data by religion and test it.

The main problem with this would be that most cancers take a long time to kill you and this would fall under being a “test from god”, so that doesn’t work.

My next thought was instantaneous deaths in car accidents. This gets rid of the “test from god” aspect as the accident doesn’t really give you time to learn anything metaphysical or philosophical from the event so it can’t be a test. So you see what I mean hopefully.

So, the test would be, "do statistically more or less Muslims/Christians/Buddhists/etc. die in instantaneous deaths" (accounting for all other variables of course).

Any other suggestions that we could measure that would work? Any improvement on the premise? :D

[Keltoi]

Hmm....I don't think this type of statistical brainstorm matters very much. Think about this. Its the Early to Late Medieval period. The average life expectancy is around 40 years. 50% of children die before the age of 10. Life is brutal, often painful, and short. Did those people blame God for their misfortunes? I would say no. I say that because that is what life was in the ancient to medieval period. It was an accepted part of life. Christ was their comfort. He was a comfort because they knew that through faith their life of pain and suffering would be transformed to one of peace and joy.

We can argue about how much influence God chooses to take in the cycle of life, but sudden death and misfortune have been a part of the human experience for a very long time. Just my two cents off the top of my head.

[Gator]

Yeah, but then you have bible sayings such as:

Psalm 128
A song of ascents.
1 Blessed are all who fear the LORD,
who walk in his ways.
2 You will eat the fruit of your labor;
blessings and prosperity will be yours.
3 Your wife will be like a fruitful vine
within your house;
your sons will be like olive shoots
around your table.
4 Thus is the man blessed
who fears the LORD.

That would clearly be a promise by the lord that "true" christians would prosper. Now those who profess to be christian and those that are christian (as in every religion even muslim), so you will have misery and death in the general population of a religious sect as there are not true believers. So I'm not looking for a 1 to 1 relationship in the population.

I'm just saying that if a person was promised by the lord to prosper, and he/she truly "feared God" then that on a statistically significant basis, they would do so.

Plus you have the test problem again.

In general population statistics, based on the psalm above, there could there be some general measure of prosperity?

[Fazl Ahmad]

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

And if you were to try to count the favours of Allah, you would never be able to number them (an-Nahl 16:18)

Islam is the true religion which propogates the simple message La ilaha illa Allah (There is none worthy of devotion other than Allah). Those who accept and live by this creed will be blessed immensely in both this life and the hereafter: For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the hereafter (Yunus 10:64)

This is the promise of Allah for the believers, they will find that Allah will give them immense blessings and happiness if they adhere to His path. Yes, they will face trials and tribulations, but if their faith is strong and they do not swerve from their religious duties and the devotion to Allah, He will definitely come to their rescue and save them from every affliction.

The Islamic lifestyle is the most simple and intelligent lifestyle for humanity. Those who truly practice it are the most happiest and blessed people. If you take an objective study and compare the lifestyle of the believers versus the unbelievers you will definitely come to this conclusion. Islam imparts strong family and moral values. In Western societies there is much corruption in this regard. Adhering to the Sunnah strictly results in immense blessings with regard to physical as well as spiritual health. The AIDS and other deadly diseases do not effect Muslim regions of the world as badly as they effect non-Muslim regions to name one objective example. There are many others, but to truly know the benefit of Islam you need to observe Muslims carefully and see how excellent their conduct is in every manner because they are following in the footsteps of the Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam). You need to see how devoted they are to Allah, how disciplined their lives are, and how much prosperity they are enjoying.

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[glo]

I think I understand what you are saying, Gator.

Certainly many passages (especially in the OT) give the impression that 'good people (= obedient believers) get blessed' and everybody else doesn't ...

Clearly that is not the case. Good things happen to bad people, and vice versa.
(I suppose the story of Job illustrates that pretty well)

There are different interpretations why bad things may happen to believers:

• For God's greater purpose
• As a test to the believer
• As a punishment

There is also a possibility that our human perception of 'receiving blessing' just isn't the same as God's. (Some Eastern religions have a very different perception of blessing, and may not see suffering as a contrast to blessing at all ...)
Or that we receive God's blessing in the afterlife ...

What troubles me with the whole 'good-people-are-blessed-by-God-thing' (and perhaps it troubles you too), is how easily it can be used for humans to be judgmental of each other! :(

Very good friends of mine, who are very devout Christians, have suffered much in the last two years: ill health, loss of job and income, loss of house etc.
If I was to take your original thought literal, I should by now be wondering what they have done wrong to deserve 'God's punishment'! Are they perhaps not good Christians at all??! :X

And that is the danger. If I believe the 'good-people-are-blessed-by-God-thing', then I should come to the conclusion that only the rich, the powerful, the healthy and the beautiful are under God's favour ...
Now that's a worrying thought!

I see that I have thrown more questions into the discussion, rather than given answers.
This is just the kind of pondering thread I like. Looking forward to the discussion.

(It reminds me that not so long ago I was told in this forum that I was punished with an atheist husband, because I didn't follow God in the true way! :mmokay:)

Peace

[mkh4JC]

The Bible actually says that 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all,' Psalm 34:19. And while you can have natural blessings, the real blessings of God comes from the fact that you actually know him, and that he will use you as an instrument or vessel to do his will throughout the Earth.

[glo]

The Bible actually says that 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all,' Psalm 34:19. And while you can have natural blessings, the real blessings of God comes from the fact that you actually know him, and that he will use you as an instrument or vessel to do his will throughout the Earth.

That's a beautiful post, Fedos. :)

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi, well first off I can appreciate the way you try to reason. But there's something wrong, not with your premise itself, but by the way you apply it. If your premise is that "following the true path gives some benefits" then you cannot just put that to the test by randomly checking any benefit. The benefits you propose (like probability of cancer infections) might not be one of them, and the results might thus be insignificant.

[KAding]

Hi, well first off I can appreciate the way you try to reason. But there's something wrong, not with your premise itself, but by the way you apply it. If your premise is that "following the true path gives some benefits" then you cannot just put that to the test by randomly checking any benefit. The benefits you propose (like probability of cancer infections) might not be one of them, and the results might thus be insignificant.

But surely there are some indicators that could be useful to measure "well-being"? Like the self-reported degree of happiness or appreciation of life? I mean, if people don't think they are happy then they more than likely are not? Otherwise it might useful to look at the occurrence of certain mental illnesses, such as depression or anxiety, both of which indicate a clear lack of "peace of mind". And why isn't prosperity a reasonable indicator? I was under the impression that both the bible and Qu'ran actually promise material happiness in this life as well as the next?

[AntiKarateKid]

But surely there are some indicators that could be useful to measure "well-being"? Like the self-reported degree of happiness or appreciation of life? I mean, if people don't think they are happy then they more than likely are not? Otherwise it might useful to look at the occurrence of certain mental illnesses, such as depression or anxiety, both of which indicate a clear lack of "peace of mind". And why isn't prosperity a reasonable indicator? I was under the impression that both the bible and Qu'ran actually promise material happiness in this life as well as the next?

God has said over and over that the greatest reward is with him. Though he may choose to bestoy earthly favors to whom he will.

I remember reading a hadith in which a man who was admitted to paradise was given all his rewards for each good deed he did that was not rewarded in his earthly life. The man wished that he had never been rewarded in his earthly life because of the vastly superior afterlife rewards.

God alone knows what type of test is proper for this life and no soul, like he said, is burdened beyond their capacity. If they do fail the test, it is their fault because it was the fairest in regards to their spiritual capabilities.

There is a true spiritual pleasure that comes from following the Prophet and steering away from the idols of this world. Whether those idols be material goodness or an elephant statue.

Also, Allah has stated that Man can have nothing but what he strives for.

If you are looking for material happiness with religion, then you have missed the point of it and will be cursed. As for the believers, God may choose to reward them as he sees fit for their soul and doings. He is the Just and as always, knows best.

[AntiKarateKid]

OK, for those statistically inclined, a thought experiment on which is the “true” religion and maybe would answer does god exist at all. (This is of course impossible, and lets not split obvious hairs, but it’s the journey not the destination).

I thought of an initial premise of how we could at least provide some direction as to which religion/philosophy is right. This of course is assuming we had the ability to collect the data we would need.

Initial Premise – Believing in the correct religion must confer some benefit.

[Contra-argument - Now this may not be the case because if you believe in an afterlife, God may not confer any benefit here. If this is your position please state sources from holy texts that state you get no greater favor here in this life (i.e. your god doesn’t promise you at least once some sort of prosperity or happiness)].

If we were to decide upon some measurable variable that satisfies all the religion’s parameters, we could test it on a statistical hypothesis based on our assumed ability to collect the data.

If the measurable variable, statistically favors one or more (or ALL!) relgion/philosophy over another then we would have some evidence. If none is statistically significant would that lend credence to the atheistic philosophy?

OK that’s it. As an example, my first thought was lethal cancer rates among religions. We could get the cancer rate data by religion and test it.

The main problem with this would be that most cancers take a long time to kill you and this would fall under being a “test from god”, so that doesn’t work.

My next thought was instantaneous deaths in car accidents. This gets rid of the “test from god” aspect as the accident doesn’t really give you time to learn anything metaphysical or philosophical from the event so it can’t be a test. So you see what I mean hopefully.

So, the test would be, "do statistically more or less Muslims/Christians/Buddhists/etc. die in instantaneous deaths" (accounting for all other variables of course).

Any other suggestions that we could measure that would work? Any improvement on the premise? :D

By the way, I get the sense that atheists, maybe not you, think they are smarter than God. You go about trying to test this or that and may arrogant little formulas that serve no purpose other than making you feel better. If you say that "hey i'm gonna see which is the right religion by seeing which gives me the best life" you WILL fail. God has urged us to use our minds and our hearts to find Him. Go join some fake religion that enjoins alot of sex, alcohol, mandatory videogames and relaxation as prayer. You will get what you want.Then take a checkup with your doctor and say "OMG i lowered my cholesterol and blood pressure, I HAVE FOUND GOD"

Go take your foolish premises and convoluted plans, you will never reach God this way. God himself stated that punishment will come to Muslims as well as other nations so your "thought experiment" has absolutely no permanence. And if you do it by individuals you will never know the state of another person's blessings because you are not him. Even he might not know and God may know only.

16 These are those who buy Error for Guidance, so their trade does not bring profit, nor are they guided.

17 Their similitude is like the parable of one who kindles a fire but when it has lit up all around him, Allah takes away their light, and leaves them in utter darkness, they cannot see.

18 deafness, dumbness, blindness, so that they cannot return.



You honestly never fail to surprise me in your sheer ridiculousness and by thinking this your plan will take you closer to God, you stray further.

[Gator]

Hi, well first off I can appreciate the way you try to reason. But there's something wrong, not with your premise itself, but by the way you apply it. If your premise is that "following the true path gives some benefits" then you cannot just put that to the test by randomly checking any benefit. The benefits you propose (like probability of cancer infections) might not be one of them, and the results might thus be insignificant.

Good point, if any prosperity promised may show up in mutiple ways as people find happieness in different things (work, family, leisure, etc.) Didn't think about that though maybe I focused on bad things happening as a way to get around that.

KAding's response is good in trying to get a measurable basket, but polls of happiness seem flaky (though I did set the condition that we could collect ANY data that would fit the condition, no matter how impossible in reality).

[Gator]

By the way, I get the sense that ...

Actually I thought this framework would spark a discussion on what if anything is promised by the different religions here on earth. A lot of the posts have been interesting and brought up good points, verses and positions.

The framework itself is impossible as I stated. I just thought I could learn about the different views held.

Thanks.

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi again,
KAding, how do you objectively measure a person's happiness? I mean I'd have trouble taking people's word for it. And even then that's still up to interpretation. I could argue for example, that a person who seems depressed would be of worse if he weren't religious. We'd need to think of all other factors that can influence happiness to, and take them into consideration. If for example a country is at war, it's to be expected that there's unhappy people. So countries like Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine and so on would bring down the average happiness of muslims, since those countries have a majority of muslims. That's just one example, you could say for example that Muslims living in Europe and US face discrimination and are therefor in average more unhappy to. Still that doesn't mean that this unhappiness is intrinsic to being a Muslim. Although there might be some interesting points here for sociology, the thought experiment will end up very biased.

[Gator]

The problem with that though is that if God has promised the prosperity if you believe, are the actions of humans greater than God's word?

Like for example, the Christians students in Indonesia who were forced off out of where they lived by Muslims throwing Molotov cocktails. If the Christian God exists and if he had promised them prosperity and they were true believers they would in a general basis get it right? The actions of the Muslims should not be more powerful than the Christian gods word.

In affect, God created the world and if promised prosperity/happiness, it should infact occur right?

[Keltoi]

The problem with that though is that if God has promised the prosperity if you believe, are the actions of humans greater than God's word?

Like for example, the Christians students in Indonesia who were forced off out of where they lived by Muslims throwing Molotov cocktails. If the Christian God exists and if he had promised them prosperity and they were true believers they would in a general basis get it right? The actions of the Muslims should not be more powerful than the Christian gods word.

In affect, God created the world and if promised prosperity/happiness, it should infact occur right?

"Don't worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank Him for all He has done. If you do this, you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6,7).

"Dear friends, don't be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, as if something strange were happening to you. Instead, be very glad—because these trials will make you partners with Christ in His suffering, and afterward you will have the wonderful joy of sharing His glory when it is displayed to all the world" (1 Peter 4:12,13).

"Our present troubles are quite small and won't last very long. Yet, they produce for us an immeasurably great glory that will last forever! So we don't look at the troubles we can see right now; rather, we look forward to what we have not yet seen. For the troubles we see will soon be over, but the joys to come will last forever" (2 Corinthians 4: 17,18).

I posted those verses to point out that Christians expect hardship, trials, and suffering. It is about putting trust in God when it is the most difficult to do so. It is easy to be a person of faith when everything is great, peaceful, and happy. It is very hard when life seems to be out to get you.

[Abdul Fattah]

The problem with that though is that if God has promised the prosperity if you believe, are the actions of humans greater than God's word?

No He hasn't. He promised us prosperity in the hereafter, and peace of hearth in this life. There's no guarantees on how successful you'll be in this life.
which btw reminds me of another factor, how do you, in your experiment separate the genuine believers from those who follow the masses blindly and the hypocrites?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

[Contra-argument - Now this may not be the case because if you believe in an afterlife, God may not confer any benefit here. If this is your position please state sources from holy texts that state you get no greater favor here in this life (i.e. your god doesn’t promise you at least once some sort of prosperity or happiness)].

“Indeed amazing are the affairs of a believer! They are all for his benefit. If he is granted ease of living he is thankful; and this is best for him. And if he is afflicted with a hardship, he perseveres; and this is best or him.” (Muslim)

Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet said, ”Hardships continue to befall a believing man and woman in their body, family, and property, until they meet Allah burdened with no sins” (At-Tirmidhi).

“The most in their suffering among the people are the prophets, then the best, then the (next) best. One is afflicted in accordance with his faith. If his faith is firm, his affliction is hard, and if his faith is weak, his affliction is light. Indeed, one would be so much subjected to adversity until he walks among the people without any sins.” (Ahmad and At-Tirmidhi)

[Certainly, We shall test you with fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits; but give glad tidings to the patient—those who, when afflicted with calamity say, “Truly to Allah we belong, and truly to Him shall we return.” It is those who will be awarded blessings and mercy from their Lord; and it is those who are the guided ones.] (Al-Baqarah 2:155–157)

for more information check out:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...ah%2FLSELayout

Living a healthy luxurious life indicates nothing. Its our conduct, our manners charasteristics and behaviour, attitude etc... this indicates whos on the true path !

[Gator]

No He hasn't. He promised us prosperity in the hereafter, and peace of hearth in this life. There's no guarantees on how successful you'll be in this life.

IbnAbdulHakim has some good quotes below on this. Hadiths right? Thanks IAH!

which btw reminds me of another factor, how do you, in your experiment separate the genuine believers from those who follow the masses blindly and the hypocrites?

Yeah I had some thoughts on it.

Well, if you have a population made up of of non-believers who state they are believers and true believers you could still have a statistically significant deviation from other religious/philosophical populations as the population in the others are ALL wrong. So the believing segment may still give that population the statistical significance.

The problem there is how many are true believers. In reality my opinion is most people (80%) just culturally adhere to the religion they were raised in, 15% believe but marginally practice and 5% are hardcore practitioners. Would that be enough to give a statistical significance?

I believe in the bible it hints at the amount of people going to be save (144,000, number uncounted, etc.). Are there any sura's or hadiths that give an insight into this number?

Thanks.

[mkh4JC]

I believe in the bible it hints at the amount of people going to be save (144,000, number uncounted, etc.). Are there any sura's or hadiths that give an insight into this number?

Thanks.

That's incorrect, and is what Jehovah's Witnesses have latched onto I believe. I'm a baby in Christ, but I believe the 144,000 witnesses spoken of in Revelation refer to those of Jewish ancestry, who will witness for Christ during the seven year tribulation, events which will follow the rapture of the Church. You are right to believe that not everyone who calls themselves Christians are really Christ's however, like, there isn't two billion plus of us walking around, not by a longshot.

[Fazl Ahmad]

problem there is how many are true believers. In reality my opinion is most people (80%) just culturally adhere to the religion they were raised in, 15% believe but marginally practice and 5% are hardcore practitioners. Would that be enough to give a statistical significance?

I believe in the bible it hints at the amount of people going to be save (144,000, number uncounted, etc.). Are there any sura's or hadiths that give an insight into this number?

I dont think its possible to have statistics on what is the percentage or number of true believers versus nominal believers. Belief is a matter of the heart, and only Allah knows what is in the heart. Islam does not give any precise number of people who are "saved", but there are many ahadith sayings of the Nabi (alaihi salatu wa salam) that his ummah will be very large in number, and will make up half of the people of paradise. And seventy thousand people from this ummah will enter paradise without a reckoning. They are the extremely righteous and pious believers possessing perfect and sincere faith.

[Abdul Fattah]

hi

Well, if you have a population made up of of non-believers who state they are believers and true believers you could still have a statistically significant deviation from other religious/philosophical populations as the population in the others are ALL wrong. So the believing segment may still give that population the statistical significance. The problem there is how many are true believers. In reality my opinion is most people (80%) just culturally adhere to the religion they were raised in, 15% believe but marginally practice and 5% are hardcore practitioners. Would that be enough to give a statistical significance?

perhaps, I'm not to sure about that.

I believe in the bible it hints at the amount of people going to be save (144,000, number uncounted, etc.). Are there any sura's or hadiths that give an insight into this number?

Yes I remember reading one, I'm looking it up but can't find it...