Allah sends astray ... (Surat Al-'An`am)

[glo]

Greetings

In Surat Al-'An`am there are a couple of references to Allah sending non-believers astray, and only leading chosen ones to the truth:

We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein (6:25)

Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills. (6:39)

It sounds like Allah prevents certain people from finding the truth in the first place, and then punish them for it. That doesn't seem fair at all ...

Can somebody explain these verses, and put them in the right context, please?

[------]

Hey glo,

First verse is explained here

Second verse is explained here

My own understanding; because people fail to obey Allaah in the first place and do not give Him His due Right, then Allaah misguides them and sets veils on their hearts, etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong anyone.

[Fazl Ahmad]

Serene is correct, Allah leaves people astray who have a disease in their heart. He puts a seal over their heart and closes it to receiving any guidance because of their evil attitude. May Allah save us all from such a horrible fate (ameen).

[glo]

But if people aren't willing to obey Allah out of their own choice, why does Allah need to send them astray/veil their hearts etc.?

Either disobedience/disbelief is the choosing of humans, or the choosing of Allah ... how can it be both? :?

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[AntiKarateKid]

But if people aren't willing to obey Allah out of their own choice, why does Allah need to send them astray/veil their hearts etc.?

Either disobedience/disbelief is the choosing of humans, or the choosing of Allah ... how can it be both? :?

Don't forget that this concept is also in your Bible too. take a good look at what happen to Pharaoh int he old testament. Exodus 11:10

"Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land."

Romans 11:8

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."


Isaiah 63:17

"O LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants’ sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. "


Ezekiel 14:9

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

Now, I can't speak for your Bible, but here are some Islamic answers to your question.

Here is one answer i posted earlier.

http://discovering-islam.blogspot.co...of-kuffar.html

You are forgetting some aspects of our creator. He knows us better than we do. He knows what we will do and if we will believe if we are given a proper test. If Allah find you leaving much wanting and on top of that an enemy unto Him, he can punish you this way.


keep in mind also that the seal put upon their hearts is in response to their acts of disbelief. Allah does not do it ahead of time yet he knows that it will happen.

Quran 29:69 And those who strive in Our (cause) - We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily God is with those who do right.

Here is another very thorough response. This one goes into more detail which I think you will like.

http://www.----------------/articles/g...em/destiny.htm

[glo]

Don't forget that this concept is also in your Bible too. take a good look at what happen to Pharaoh int he old testament. Exodus 11:10

Oh, I understand that this is a concept in the Bible too, AntiKarateKid.
I remember asking the very same question about Pharao in other places ... (Entitled 'Who saves Pharao?')

The reason I am asking it here, is that I come across a very similar sentiment in the Qu'ran, and I was interested to hear the Islamic perspective.

You are forgetting some aspects of our creator. He knows us better than we do. He knows what we will do and if we will believe if we are given a proper test.

That makes sense, and is similar to responses I have received from Christians on the topic.
Thank you for your reply.

Salaam

[Uthman]

According to Dr. Jamal Badawi, if you read the verse in Arabic, you will come to understand that this happens to the disbelievers by virtue of their disbelief. It is a punishment upon them by Allah that happens by virtue of their disbelief. I don't know Arabic very well myself so maybe an Arabic speaker on the board can help out with the specifics.

[YusufNoor]

But if people aren't willing to obey Allah out of their own choice, why does Allah need to send them astray/veil their hearts etc.?

Either disobedience/disbelief is the choosing of humans, or the choosing of Allah ... how can it be both? :?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

you need to apply Qur'anic reasoning to the Qur'an in it's entirety. plucking verses from here and there and thinking that they go together. context as well as other verses may be needed to understand certain concepts. that's why we may need the Ahadeeth on the Ayats or Surah.

in this case we can learn a little more by looking at more of the surah:

20:
Muhsin Khan: Those to whom We have given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognize him (i.e. Muhammad SAW as a Messenger of Allah, and they also know that there is no Ilah (God) but Allah and Islam is Allah's Religion), as they recognize their own sons. Those who destroy themselves will not believe. (Tafsir At-Tabari)
21:
Muhsin Khan: And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.)? Verily, the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong*doers, etc.) shall never be successful.
22:
Muhsin Khan: And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us): "Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)?"
23:
Muhsin Khan: There will then be (left) no Fitnah (excuses or statements or arguments) for them but to say: "By Allah, our Lord, we were not those who joined others in worship with Allah."
24:
Muhsin Khan: Look! How they lie against themselves! But the (lie) which they invented will disappear from them.
25:
Muhsin Khan: And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."
26:
Muhsin Khan: And they prevent others from him (from following Prophet Muhammad SAW) and they themselves keep away from him, and (by doing so) they destroy not but their ownselves, yet they perceive (it) not.
27:
Muhsin Khan: If you could but see when they will be held over the (Hell) Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back (to the world)! Then we would not deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of our Lord, and we would be of the believers!"
28:
Muhsin Khan: Nay, it has become manifest to them what they had been concealing before. But if they were returned (to the world), they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden. And indeed they are liars.
29:
Muhsin Khan: And they said: "There is no (other life) but our (present) life of this world, and never shall we be resurrected (on the Day of Resurrection)."
30:
Muhsin Khan: If you could but see when they will be held (brought and made to stand) in front of their Lord! He will say: "Is not this (Resurrection and the taking of the accounts) the truth?" They will say: "Yes, by our Lord!" He will then say: "So taste you the torment because you used not to believe."
31:
Muhsin Khan: They indeed are losers who denied their Meeting with Allah, until all of a sudden, the Hour (signs of death) is on them, and they say: "Alas for us that we gave no thought to it," while they will bear their burdens on their backs; and evil indeed are the burdens that they will bear!
32:
Muhsin Khan: And the life of this world is nothing but play and amusement. But far better is the house in the Hereafter for those who are Al*Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). Will you not then understand?
33:
Muhsin Khan: We know indeed the grief which their words cause you (O Muhammad SAW): it is not you that they deny, but it is the Verses (the Quran) of Allah that the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong*doers) deny.
34:
Muhsin Khan: Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you (O Muhammad SAW), but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. Surely there has reached you the information (news) about the Messengers (before you).
35:
Muhsin Khan: If their aversion (from you, O Muhammad SAW and from that with which you have been sent) is hard on you, (and you cannot be patient from their harm to you), then if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the sky, so that you may bring them a sign (and you cannot do it, so be patient). And had Allah willed, He could have gathered them together (all) unto true guidance, so be not you one of those who are Al-Jahilun (the ignorant).
36:
Muhsin Khan: It is only those who listen (to the Message of Prophet Muhammad SAW), will respond (benefit from it), but as for the dead (disbelievers), Allah will raise them up, then to Him they will be returned (for their recompense).
37:
Muhsin Khan: And they said: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah is certainly Able to send down a sign, but most of them know not."
38:
Muhsin Khan: There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.
39:
Muhsin Khan: Those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are deaf and dumb in darkness. Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills.

we see in Ayat 20 that there is a reference to "Those to whom We have given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)[who] recognize him" and they also "know that there is no Ilah (God) but Allah and Islam is Allah's Religion)"; as a result of rejecting this knowledge the become "Those who destroy themselves!"

additionally, in Ayat 21 we read: "And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.)? Verily, the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong*doers, etc.) shall never be successful."

these people are "destroy themselves" and "shall never be successful"; one of the things that can happen to an individual who KNOWINGLY rejects Allah and His Messenger and also "invents a lie against Allah"; ESPECIALLY THOSE of whom it is said "there are some who listen to you," these are only "listening" in order to find fault or cause trouble. Allah[swt] knows there intention and thus "We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old." so there probing and refuting which puts them in contact with Allah's Word will be of no benefit for them.

if this seems unfair, we see in the next Ayat further reference of those whom Allah[swt] is speaking of: "they prevent others from him (from following Prophet Muhammad SAW)." as a result of this "they destroy not but their ownselves!"

and further we read that those who say: "There is no (other life) but our (present) life of this world, and never shall we be resurrected (on the Day of Resurrection)" are also included in this category.

at the end of these ayats we see it summed this way: Those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are deaf and dumb in darkness!" in other word, THEY THEMSELVES, as a result of said rejection, have allowed themselves to become " deaf and dumb in darkness." this, Allah[swt] has allowed to happen, but THEY THEMSELVES are the cause!

now if someone's evil is truly extreme, Allah[swt] can simply "give them enough rope," so to speak! but is this Allah[swt] taking their free will away?" ABSOLUTELY NOT! the "veil" which is spoken of can be no other than [as we read in Surah 18:46];

46:
Muhsin Khan: Wealth and children are the adornment of the life of this world. But the good righteous deeds (five compulsory prayers, deeds of Allah's obedience, good and nice talk, remembrance of Allah with glorification, praises and thanks, etc.), that last, are better with your Lord for rewards and better in respect of hope.

and also :

103:
Muhsin Khan: Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds?
104:
Muhsin Khan: "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!
105:
Muhsin Khan: "They are those who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
106:
Muhsin Khan: "That shall be their recompense, Hell; because they disbelieved and took My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and My Messengers by way of jest and mockery.

we see excessive evil listed as "they disbelieved and took My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and My Messengers by way of jest and mockery".

thus, one can harden their own heart against Allah and His Messenger just as one can soften one's heart, but the choice was theirs. HOWEVER, the more evil you are, the more Allah[swt] can give you of "Wealth and children, [which] are the adornment of the life of this world." the more you focus on the dunya, they less you'll see of the Akhira!

you have the option of of seeking Allah's assistance, or His "rope!" the choice is yours!"

:w:

[A_Way_Of_Life]

As-salam alakum

Interesting thread...

I have one question I would like answered if it is OK, Inshallah.

I know that Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala knows everyone's fate but we as humans don't know.

My question is, is it ever too late for a Non-Muslim to believe and accept Islam no matter what he has done as long as he is alive? if Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala seals ones heart and misguides them because of their choice does that mean the door of repentance is closed permanently for them?

May Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us all to the straight path, ameen!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Glo i might sound silly but its kinda like this,

imagine you punch yourself once, that would cause harm but overtime it will heal. Imagine your punching yourself twice everyday, again its greater harm but over a longer time it will heal. Now imagine if your constantly battering yourself to the end... you'll die!

likewise constant sin/ignorance and disbelief leads to what is mentioned in those ayyat... a life of being astray with a veiled heart


may Allaah protect us from it. Ameen !

[------]

^ Thumma Ameen

Very nice replies MashaaAllaah

[bewildred]

I don't get the punching thingie. sorry.

But the verse says "Allah yahdee man yacha' wa yudhillu man yacha' "here, the verb yacha' refers to the people not to Allah. Right? Who he wishes, finds guidance in Allah and who he wishes to remain astray, Allah will let him on his blindness????

Once again, forgive my ignorance. I only seek some guidance.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ the more dirty you get, the more you seal yourself, its your own oppression

get it?

[Hamayun]

My question is, is it ever too late for a Non-Muslim to believe and accept Islam no matter what he has done as long as he is alive? if Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala seals ones heart and misguides them because of their choice does that mean the door of repentance is closed permanently for them?

May Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us all to the straight path, ameen!

I would like to know this too please.

Thank you.

[A_Way_Of_Life]

As-Salam-al-akum

Does someone have an answer to my question? I hope I did not ask a bad question. imsad

[Pk_#2]

Greetings

In Surat Al-'An`am there are a couple of references to Allah sending non-believers astray, and only leading chosen ones to the truth:




It sounds like Allah prevents certain people from finding the truth in the first place, and then punish them for it. That doesn't seem fair at all ...

Can somebody explain these verses, and put them in the right context, please?

Hi,

edit

Sorry that forum is strictly Muslim only..:-[ (ima paste the article below)

Read the article posted by br. Acid written by br. Bassam Zawadi.

He's a member of this ^ forum and I think he also has a site of his own, if you need to ask him a question you can ask on here and I'll pass it on.




You cant surely mis this article by brother Bassam Zawadi ( May Allah grant him all success ) :

What Does It Mean That Allah Guides Whom He Wills And Misguides Whom He Wills?

By

Bassam Zawadi



Here is an example of a very misunderstood verse in the Quran...



Surah 14:4

And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.



People will tend to argue that Allah misguides people and therefore when the people are misguided they don't have free will and that it is actually Allah's fault for them being misguided and that Allah would be unjust for punishing them.

However, lets read the Quran in context so that we can better understand what this verse is saying. I won't be using any commentaries because once someone reads the Quran in context he could easily understand what the verse is saying.



Surah 18:29

Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!

Surah 25:57

Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whoso will may choose a way unto his Lord.

Surah 73:19

Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.

Surah 80:11-12

Nay, but verily it is an Admonishment, So let whosoever will pay heed to it,



Here we clearly see that people have a FREE WILL to believe or disbelieve in God and to choose the straight path unto the Lord.



Surah 29:69

As for those who strive in Us, We surely guide them to Our paths, and lo! Allah is with the good.



God is clearly telling us that we need to struggle hard in order to find the path to God. Allah will only guide those who actually struggle to be guided. If God has already predetermined who would go to hell and heaven without giving us free will then it would be useless for Allah to tell us to strive to be good. So God guides those who strive and put an effort to want to be guided.



Surah 39:7

If ye are thankless, yet Allah is Independent of you, though He is not pleased with thanklessness for His bondmen; and if ye are thankful He is pleased therewith for you. No laden soul will bear another's load. Then unto your Lord is your return; and He will tell you what ye used to do. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).



Allah is saying that He is not pleased with those who are thankless to Him. It would not make sense for God to misguide those people intentionally without giving them free will so that they can go and do what He does not like.



Surah 45:22

And Allah hath created the heavens and the earth with truth, and that every soul may be repaid what it hath earned. And they will not be wronged.



God will judge those people according to the deeds that they have done and according to what they earned. They will not be judged unfairly.

So God judging them by what they earned shows that human beings have free will to do evil if they are judged to be evil and therefore it is no one's fault but theirs.



Surah 7:147-148
Those who deny Our revelations and the meeting of the Hereafter, their works are fruitless. Are they requited aught save what they used to do? And the folk of Moses, after (he left them), chose a calf (for worship), (made) out of their ornaments, of saffron hue, which gave a lowing sound. Saw they not that it spake not unto them nor guided them to any way ? They chose it, and became wrong-doers.

Surah 27:90

And whoso bringeth an ill-deed, such will be flung down on their faces in the Fire. Are ye rewarded aught save what ye did ?

Surah 37:38-39
Lo! (now) verily ye taste the painful doom - Ye are requited naught save what ye did -

Surah 45:15

Whoso doeth right, it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong, it is against it. And afterward unto your Lord ye will be brought back.

Surah 52:13-19
The day when they are thrust with a (disdainful) thrust, into the fire of hell (And it is said unto them): This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny. Is this magic, or do ye not see ? Endure the heat thereof, and whether ye are patient of it or impatient of it is all one for you. Ye are only being paid for what ye used to do. Lo! those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight, Happy because of what their Lord hath given them, and (because) their Lord hath warded off from them the torment of hell-fire. (And it is said unto them): Eat and drink in health (as a reward) for what ye used to do,



Again, clearly we see that sinners are punished for what they did. It is their fault and no one else's.



Surah 10:45

And on the day when He shall gather them together, (when it will seem) as though they had tarried but an hour of the day, recognising one another, those will verily have perished who denied the meeting with Allah and were not guided.

Surah 16:33-34
Await they aught say that the angels should come unto them or thy Lord's command should come to pass ? Even so did those before them. Allah wronged them not, but they did wrong themselves, So that the evils of what they did smote them, and that which they used to mock surrounded them.

Surah 41:46

Whoso doeth right it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong it is against it. And thy Lord is not at all a tyrant to His slaves.



Again we see that Allah is not to be held responsible but the sinners are for their own sinful actions that they willingly chose to commit.



So Who Are The People That Are Misguided?



Surah 2:26

Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;

Surah 6:56

Say: I am forbidden to worship those on whom ye call instead of Allah. Say: I will not follow your desires, for then should I go astray and I should not be of the rightly guided.

Surah 6:116

If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess.

Surah 7:30

A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting supporters instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.

Surah 14:27

Allah confirmeth those who believe by a firm saying in the life of the world and in the Hereafter, and Allah sendeth wrong-doers astray. And Allah doeth what He will.

Surah 17:72

Whoso is blind here will be blind in the Hereafter, and yet further from the road.

Surah 22:4

Against him it is written down that whoever takes him (the devil) for a friend, he shall lead him astray and conduct him to the chastisement of the burning fire.

Surah 25:44

Or deemest thou that most of them hear or understand ? They are but as the cattle - nay, but they are farther astray ?

Surah 33:36

And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

Surah 33:67

And they say: Our Lord! Lo! we obeyed our princes and great men, and they misled us from the Way.

Surah 61:5

So when they turned away (from the Path of Allah) Allah turned their hearts away (from the Right Path) and Allah guides not the people who are fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah)."



So we see that Allah misguides those wrongdoers who are truly misguided by their own actions that they willingly chose to commit. Allah is omniscient and therefore knows in advance what their FREE WILLED actions will be. Therefore, Allah misguides them. HOWEVER, Allah only misguides those who WILLINGLY commit wrong and have earned to be labeled as disbelievers and go to Hell.



Best regards

Acid



This is the article Acid gave me when I needed it to help someone understand what you are asking, or similar to what you are asking.

[barney]

As an Agnostic i see these verses as Islams equivilant of Excommunication. it's the Big Stick.
Although Yaweh and Allah are oft forgiving and merciful, theres a cut off point a "mortal sin" which will forever lock you out.
Catholicism lists the sins, and they tend to be things that would break the faith, such as denying the Holy Ghost, or disbeleiving that Jesus jumped into a cracker millions of times every sunday.
Islam 's verses are more subtle. Only Allah knows the criteria for being locked out of paradise and its up to him alone. This can potentially lead any action of the person to being punishable with the ultimate sanction.(apart from immediate divine intervention causing death).

Obviously as agnostic, I veiw it as a control mechanism, but appreciate its subtlty and open-endedness.

Why would Allah want these really bad people out of heaven, even if they repented? Well it appeals to the sense of justice. Most people would want paradise to be free of those who had done truely evil acts. You might not mind meeting a reformed con-man in jannah, but to meet the murderer of your father?

[aamirsaab]

Why would Allah want these really bad people out of heaven, even if they repented? Well it appeals to the sense of justice. Most people would want paradise to be free of those who had done truely evil acts. You might not mind meeting a reformed con-man in jannah, but to meet the murderer of your father?

I doubt you'd want to see Hitler in heaven :p.


I like to think of it like this: jerkholes go to hell. Nice people go to heaven. Most of the teachings of Islam all indicate that to be a good muslim is to be a nice person. If you don't practice what Islam teaches, then of course you are going to be lead astray - but if you have chosen that path, God isn't going to help you anymore. To paraphrase a comment one sheik told me at a conference: If you forget Allah, then Allah will forget you.

Harsh, but fair.

[barney]

I doubt you'd want to see Hitler in heaven :p.

Well technically, as a Roman Catholic, who was never excommunicated, Hitler is in Christian Heaven, as long as he died accepting Jesus as his lord and Saviour and as the son of God.

Which shows how naff that system is.

[جوري]

As-salam alakum

Interesting thread...

I have one question I would like answered if it is OK, Inshallah.

I know that Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala knows everyone's fate but we as humans don't know.

My question is, is it ever too late for a Non-Muslim to believe and accept Islam no matter what he has done as long as he is alive? if Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala seals ones heart and misguides them because of their choice does that mean the door of repentance is closed permanently for them?

May Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us all to the straight path, ameen!

The doors of repentance are always open--
will give you a coupll examples but don't ask me to source them because I am pressed for time

once there was a man so awful committed all vile acts, and felt remorseful so he went to a scholar and asked him will I ever be forgiven.. well the scholar knew there was no chance this man would ever be forgiven for his heinous crimes, so he decided he'd give him a dead vine.. told him, pray fast and ask for forgiveness, and if this vine turns green and alive again, that means your sins are forgiven..

He knew the man would give up, but the man was truly sincere in his repentance, so every day he'd ask forgiveness, pray, fast do good deeds, and one day the vine did turn green..

Another story was of another evil man who had committed all sorts of vile heinous acts, murdered everyone in his way, he also felt remorseful and went to ask a scholar if he'd be forgiven.. well the scholar scoffed, 'you are the most vile of creatures, how can your sins ever be forgiven?'
so the man killed the scholar too, and decided to go on the road to Mecca see if there might be another scholar who would help him, well in his way, he died, no one knew whether he'd be in heaven or hell, but angels were sent down to see the distance he'd crossed for repentance and from Allah swt forgiveness it was measured in his favor ..

Last story was of a man who lived his entire life as a debauchee, and another who lived it in pure religiosity.. well the religious man one day said I don't think that man would ever be forgiven, while the debauchee said, I have committed so much sin why can't I be more like my friend.. and because the religious man transgressed against Allah, by judging who should go to heaven and who to hell, he died on his bad intention, while the debauchee died on his good intention and was forgiven..

Allah a3lam if these stories can be verified by hadith or not? If someone wishes to add, or subtract with sources pls be my guest..

and really the take home message is.. 'So long as there is life, there is hope, and not to transgress against God's mercy-- we are not the ones funneling folks to heaven or hell' it isn't at all a human job, we'd all be better off just worrying about our own souls...

:w:

[YusufNoor]

As an Agnostic i see these verses as Islams equivilant of Excommunication. it's the Big Stick.
Although Yaweh and Allah are oft forgiving and merciful, theres a cut off point a "mortal sin" which will forever lock you out.
Catholicism lists the sins, and they tend to be things that would break the faith, such as denying the Holy Ghost, or disbeleiving that Jesus jumped into a cracker millions of times every sunday.
Islam 's verses are more subtle. Only Allah knows the criteria for being locked out of paradise and its up to him alone. This can potentially lead any action of the person to being punishable with the ultimate sanction.(apart from immediate divine intervention causing death).

Obviously as agnostic, I veiw it as a control mechanism, but appreciate its subtlty and open-endedness.

Why would Allah want these really bad people out of heaven, even if they repented? Well it appeals to the sense of justice. Most people would want paradise to be free of those who had done truely evil acts. You might not mind meeting a reformed con-man in jannah, but to meet the murderer of your father?

:sl:

i don't see how you make the connection between the two, as "Qur'anic Justice in not posed like others. consider this story in Surat Al Kahf:

Muhsin Khan: And put forward to them the example of two men; unto one of them We had given two gardens of grapes, and We had surrounded both with date-palms; and had put between them green crops (cultivated fields etc.).
33:
Muhsin Khan: Each of those two gardens brought forth its produce, and failed not in the least therein, and We caused a river to gush forth in the midst of them.
34:
Muhsin Khan: And he had property (or fruit) and he said to his companion, in the course of mutual talk: I am more than you in wealth and stronger in respect of men." [See Tafsir Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 403].
35:
Muhsin Khan: And he went into his garden while in a state (of pride and disbelief) unjust to himself. He said: "I think not that this will ever perish.
36:
Muhsin Khan: "And I think not the Hour will ever come, and if indeed I am brought back to my Lord, (on the Day of Resurrection), I surely shall find better than this when I return to Him."
37:
Muhsin Khan: His companion said to him, during the talk with him: "Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you out of dust (i.e. your father Adam), then out of Nutfah (mixed semen drops of male and female discharge), then fashioned you into a man?
38:
Muhsin Khan: "But as for my part (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord and none shall I associate as partner with my Lord.
39:
Muhsin Khan: It was better for you to say, when you entered your garden: 'That which Allah wills (will come to pass)! There is no power but with Allah '. If you see me less than you in wealth, and children.
40:
Muhsin Khan: "It may be that my Lord will give me something better than your garden, and will send on it Husban (torment, bolt, etc.) from the sky, then it will be a slippery earth.
41:
Muhsin Khan: "Or the water thereof (of the gardens) becomes deep-sunken (underground) so that you will never be able to seek it."
42:
Muhsin Khan: So his fruits were encircled (with ruin). And he remained clapping his hands with sorrow over what he had spent upon it, while it was all destroyed on its trellises, he could only say: "Would I had ascribed no partners to my Lord!" [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
43:
Muhsin Khan: And he had no group of men to help him against Allah, nor could he defend or save himself.
44:
Muhsin Khan: There (on the Day of Resurrection), Al-Walayah (the protection, power, authority and kingdom) will be for Allah (Alone), the True God. He (Allah) is the Best for reward and the Best for the final end. (La ilaha ill-Allah none has the right to be worshipped but Allah).

the one man, the disbeliever. got:

1) NOT 1, but 2 gardens of grapes! AND
2) both surrounded by date palms! AND STILL
3) green crops put between them AND ADDITIONALLY GOT
4) a river that gushed forth right smack in the middle of them!

(what a punishment!):blind:

what did the believer get? let's see:

we're NOT told, BUT he had faith!

"But as for my part (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord and none shall I associate as partner with my Lord.
It was better for you to say, when you entered your garden: 'That which Allah wills (will come to pass)! There is no power but with Allah '. If you see me less than you in wealth, and children.

the "poor man" was the richer of the 2, for those that have "eyes to see."

EVERY GOOD THING given to the first man, in terms of wealth BLINDED him to Allah[swt] and to justice!

the poor man, given nothing or little YET he COULD "see" Allah[swt] Mercy and Justice!

can you see the difference?

additionally, did the man truly repent? we are not told, but he could have!

:w:

[barney]

Well the rich chap, it's assumed, isnt going to heaven. Perhaps he will perhaps he wont. Thats, as i understand it, Allahs choice.

The story simply says to me that being poor on earth is better, because Heaven will be the place you get reward. (which back to my control theory certainly keeps the poor happy)
Other scriptures tell how poverty actually increases heavanly riches. So the poor get to laugh loudest after they die at the ones eating bucketloads of dates or burgers here.

I'm not tying that story to the "seal on the heart" surah at all myself. I see the Seal on the heart as being a nonspecific sword of damocles which is dangled, not by the threats of the Church, but by the beleivers own guilt. Really you could say anything or do anything and it might set a seal on your heart. Here on the forums , members constantly seek reassurance that they havnt said anything wrong or wonder if they have set a seal on their hearts. It's far far more effective than the Catholic version of "Ok...Well technically i diddnt deny the Holy Ghost, because I said it whilst under duress, and i diddnt really beleive it in my heart...."
Since 1850, the Inquisition (prevention of vice /promotion of virtue)hasnt been about to enforce Gods law for the christians.
Islam has the ultimate sanction with the ultimate authority rather than with the pope.

[islamirama]

Well the rich chap, it's assumed, isnt going to heaven. Perhaps he will perhaps he wont. Thats, as i understand it, Allahs choice.

The story simply says to me that being poor on earth is better, because Heaven will be the place you get reward. (which back to my control theory certainly keeps the poor happy)
Other scriptures tell how poverty actually increases heavanly riches. So the poor get to laugh loudest after they die at the ones eating bucketloads of dates or burgers here.

Islam does not say you have to live poor so you can die rich and enjoy the life in the next stage. There were many companions of the Prophet (pbuh) who were millionaires or even billionaires by today's standard/currency rate. Allah says spend in the path of Allah, pay zakah (right's due on poor) and don't hold your hand back (be stingy or greedy). Everyone is given their share of what they will get in this world and what they earn in the Hereafter depends on what they do here.

Some of us are given less for own benefit. A gun is more dangerous in a child's hand then in an adult's hand. Each person has limits to which they can handle something. Some can handle more torture then others, some can be more cruel than others, some can be soft hearted then others. Everyone has a limit to what they can and can't do, and if you push them more than natural limits then they will break or go astray. As the saying goes, power corrupts people and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Let me give you an example. There was a man during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). He was always at the masjid and used to do lot of good deeds and was religious and everything. He asked the prophet (Pbuh) to make dua (prayer) for him that he gets wealth, he was told that it will take him away from Allah but he it won't and insisted. So a dua was made for him and slowly his wealth started to increase. 10 camels to 100 camels to 1000 camles and so forth. The man started coming less and less to masjid, his devotion to the worship of Allah became less and less as he became more busy with his wealth and worldy matters. When he was asked to come he would say he does not have time. And when zakah collector was sent to him to collect zakah, he declined to give stating that it's "his" wealth and others can work for their own wealth. A verse was revealed about such people, i think it was this: 'And let not those who covetously withhold of the gifts which Allah hath given them of His Grace, think that it is good for them: nay, it will be the worse for them; soon shall the things which they covetously withheld be tied to their necks like a twisted collar on the Day of Judgment.'" (Surah Aal `Imran 2:180).

So you see some people are better off having the little they have, it keeps them humble and aware of Allah, and it is a favor upon them so they may enjoy life in the Hereafter. Otherwise they will be come arrogrant and rebellious like so many we see today, some of these men even go far as calling themselves "god" because their superficial power and wealth.

But if wealthy people who still stick to worship of Allah have more than they can spend more for good deeds and therefore can have more in paradise because they used their wealth to get greater deeds. But the prophet (pbuh) said you say Subhanallah (Glory to be Allah) 33 times , Alhamdulilalh (praise be to Allah) 33x , Allahu Akbar (Allah is Great) 34x then you will have equal in deeds to those who spend their wealth. So you see Allah gives everyone plenty of oppotunities to do good deeds. And Allah protects those whom He loves from going astray or corrupt by holding from them what may drive them into such corrupt paths.

so the story doesn't say it's better to be poor but gives glad tidings to the poor that they will be compensated in the Hereafter for what they are going through this world and tells them to be patient and strive to do good.

As for it being a control theory, well it would be naive of you or anyone else for that matter to think there exists such a system where is no control exist in any form what so ever. If you have no control, rules, guidelines, procedures, laws, then you have chaos. The planets follow laws of nature otherwise we be all destroyed by now. Each society has it's own rules and laws to control the people and govern between acceptable and acceptable behavior. You steal or kill, you go to jail. Islam or religion itself is no supernatural thing that you can use for. Islam is a full system that governs all aspect of life from spirtural to legal to political to every aspect of life. It is not a religion where you show up to a house of worship once a week and be done with it. So just like you have laws in secular states, there also exists such laws in Islam to govern between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Is it control? can you live anywhere without rules and laws? maybe jungle but even that have a law, the law of the jungle!

I'm not tying that story to the "seal on the heart" surah at all myself. I see the Seal on the heart as being a nonspecific sword of damocles which is dangled, not by the threats of the Church, but by the beleivers own guilt. Really you could say anything or do anything and it might set a seal on your heart. Here on the forums , members constantly seek reassurance that they havnt said anything wrong or wonder if they have set a seal on their hearts. It's far far more effective than the Catholic version of "Ok...Well technically i diddnt deny the Holy Ghost, because I said it whilst under duress, and i diddnt really beleive it in my heart...."
Since 1850, the Inquisition (prevention of vice /promotion of virtue)hasnt been about to enforce Gods law for the christians.
Islam has the ultimate sanction with the ultimate authority rather than with the pope.

Imagine that you have a city in a desert with walls all around it. The ruler of the city opens the door and keeps it open for you to come inside. But rather then coming in, you turn around and go away to do whatever you want. The ruler will close the door since you decided not to come in at all. Allah gives guidance to those who seek it, and the seal is put on the heart of those who don't want guidance, who don't seek it, who don't care about it, who WANT to do evil. Was Hitler seeking guidance or power to do his deeds? What about Stalin? what about Pharoh? what about Abu Jahal?

Whose is Abu Jahal? he was a pagan during the Prophet (pbuh) times. He was very very anti-islam and did everything he could against Islam and Muslims (like many kuffars today do). He used to call Mohammad (pbuh) a liar and what not. A verse was revealed stating that Abu Jahal and his wife will be the dwellers of hellfire. Now he could say the sahahada and convert to Islam and disapprove Mohammad (pbuh) and the Quran and Allah by saying that the Quran is wrong, i accepted Islam and will not go to hellfire. So is Mohammad (pbuh) going to take back that verse or be a liar? either way Abu Jahal could prove himself as a winner. But he didn't even take this opportunity, even to lie and convert to prove the Quran wrong. But he did not despite the amount of hatred he had and anti-islam he was. He is a clear example of those who will not be guided because they have chosen to be not saved.

It's really that simple, those who want to be saved, who are seeking the truth and guidance, then Allah will guide them. Those who don't want it, want to do evil and be slaves of their desires and whims and what not then it is a choice they have made it.

Check out

Reflections from Surah Al-Kahf

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...37597456&hl=en

[جوري]

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا {54}

[Shakir 18:54] And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.
[Pickthal 18:54] And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious.

I love this verse.. I can't think of a more perfect description of man's psychology save to sum it up with the term Jadal!

:w:

[A_Way_Of_Life]

The doors of repentance are always open--
will give you a coupll examples but don't ask me to source them because I am pressed for time

once there was a man so awful committed all vile acts, and felt remorseful so he went to a scholar and asked him will I ever be forgiven.. well the scholar knew there was no chance this man would ever be forgiven for his heinous crimes, so he decided he'd give him a dead vine.. told him, pray fast and ask for forgiveness, and if this vine turns green and alive again, that means your sins are forgiven..

He knew the man would give up, but the man was truly sincere in his repentance, so every day he'd ask forgiveness, pray, fast do good deeds, and one day the vine did turn green..

Another story was of another evil man who had committed all sorts of vile heinous acts, murdered everyone in his way, he also felt remorseful and went to ask a scholar if he'd be forgiven.. well the scholar scoffed, 'you are the most vile of creatures, how can your sins ever be forgiven?'
so the man killed the scholar too, and decided to go on the road to Mecca see if there might be another scholar who would help him, well in his way, he died, no one knew whether he'd be in heaven or hell, but angels were sent down to see the distance he'd crossed for repentance and from Allah swt forgiveness it was measured in his favor ..

Last story was of a man who lived his entire life as a debauchee, and another who lived it in pure religiosity.. well the religious man one day said I don't think that man would ever be forgiven, while the debauchee said, I have committed so much sin why can't I be more like my friend.. and because the religious man transgressed against Allah, by judging who should go to heaven and who to hell, he died on his bad intention, while the debauchee died on his good intention and was forgiven..

Allah a3lam if these stories can be verified by hadith or not? If someone wishes to add, or subtract with sources pls be my guest..

and really the take home message is.. 'So long as there is life, there is hope, and not to transgress against God's mercy-- we are not the ones funneling folks to heaven or hell' it isn't at all a human job, we'd all be better off just worrying about our own souls...

:w:

As-Salam-alakum

Thank you very much for the reply. :statisfie

May Allah (Subhanahu wa-ta'ala) bless you! :)

[Malaikah]

Why would Allah want these really bad people out of heaven, even if they repented? Well it appeals to the sense of justice. Most people would want paradise to be free of those who had done truely evil acts. You might not mind meeting a reformed con-man in jannah, but to meet the murderer of your father?

There will be two men on the Day of Judgement, one will ahve murdered the other. Long story short, God will offer the murdered one XYZ amount of goods/land in Paradise if he forgives the person who murdered him. The person forgives him, and they enter Paradise hand in hand.

So I don't really think your conclusion is all that valid. The only sin that Allah does not forgive is disbelief in Him/associating partners with Him, and even then, they are only unforgiven if a person died in such a state. If he repented while alive he can be forgiven.