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Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:00 PM
:salamext:

Hmm....Say...

Would you marry somebody who had diff beliefs to you? i.e. On several things such as Tawassul, waseelah etc etc...

For brothers this may be important but may also be irrelevant since the child takes the religion of the father and the wife should obey her husband in all halal matters anyway.

For sisters, well what do you think? :blind:

WassalamuAlaykum
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BNDGR
09-10-2008, 04:11 PM
Asalam alaikum sister,
It has worked for some people, I have met several people who are of different faiths and they have made it work. It seems like it might be hard though, since the mother should be teaching the kids that fathers religion and if she doesn't know much about it then it might be hard to do.
InshAllah pray for guidance and Allah will give it to you.
Take Care sister and I wish you all the best.
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:12 PM
:wasalamex

JazakAllahu khayr sister.

But I think you misunderstood me, I meant differing views and beliefs within Islam :-[

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

Tania
09-10-2008, 04:17 PM
As catholics, we can marry with muslims and other faiths too but the condition raised by church, if i remember correctly, is that the children must follow the catholic religion :-[
I have to check up that. - not sure.
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BNDGR
09-10-2008, 04:17 PM
Yes sorry sis, I did misunderstand.
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Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:19 PM
*edit* thanks :)
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BNDGR
09-10-2008, 04:23 PM
Asalam aliakum sister,
In that case inshAllah it could work out, after all marriage is about understanding and communication.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2008, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
:salamext:

Hmm....Say...

Would you marry somebody who had diff beliefs to you? i.e. On several things such as Tawassul, waseelah etc etc...

For brothers this may be important but may also be irrelevant since the child takes the religion of the father and the wife should obey her husband in all halal matters anyway.

For sisters, well what do you think? :blind:

WassalamuAlaykum
if i can see serious seeerious piety in the partner in question i wouldnt hesitate.... but my mum would.... she'd bring out that famous danda aswell
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
if i can see serious seeerious piety in the partner in question i wouldnt hesitate.... but my mum would.... she'd bring out that famous danda aswell
Ok...JazakAllah khayr, somebody who understands :exhausted

But, would you understand if that made the sister uneasy? And altho u saw the piety, how would you explain to her that it was ok? Coz to me....it seems like an issue
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F0z14
09-10-2008, 04:28 PM
i know what u mean sis, i guess that is up 2 u. ive never really thought about these things of things, in the past my mentality has been i would do whatever my partner wanted if i loved him but that is so wrong astagfirulla. i need to have my own beliefs and u have raised this thought into my head now....
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Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by F0z14
i know what u mean sis, i guess that is up 2 u. ive never really thought about these things of things, in the past my mentality has been i would do whatever my partner wanted if i loved him but that is so wrong astagfirulla. i need to have my own beliefs and u have raised this thought into my head now....
Yup sis, you know what....one may not have much 'ilm....well less than the partner in question anyway but I will always stick with what I have been taught (provided I believe it fully and have no reason to believe that it is incorrect)....I wont be changing for anybody but Allah .. Insha'Allah
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2008, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
Ok...JazakAllah khayr, somebody who understands :exhausted

But, would you understand if that made the sister uneasy? And altho u saw the piety, how would you explain to her that it was ok? Coz to me....it seems like an issue
of course that would make the sister uneasy

the mother/father in law and perhaps inlaws in general will treat her different, she will be the centre of many nights of gossip of bitter aunties the list goes on.

explain to her? the mom? the wife? the hubby? you need to be more specific in your question
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Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:37 PM
Ouch....that sounds harssh! Gossip of bitter aunties :ooh: personally I think it'd result in ... hmm well it wudnt be gud for the relationship btween hubby and wife :skeleton:
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2008, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
Ouch....that sounds harssh! Gossip of bitter aunties :ooh: personally I think it'd result in ... hmm well it wudnt be gud for the relationship btween hubby and wife :skeleton:
personally other then the girl/boy feeling uncomfy in the company of each others relatives, i dont see why it should affect the love and affection they have between each other much.

they just have to be understanding...


i know in my family personally we have gatherings of dhikr etc, we recite the Quran together and do many other things, so if a prospect didnt accept these as sunnah or nawwafil ibaadah and considered them bid'a then it would cause a huge fall-out between the couples


wallahu a'lam
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i know in my family personally we have gatherings of dhikr etc, we recite the Quran together and do many other things, so if a prospect didnt accept these as sunnah or nawwafil ibaadah and considered them bid'a then it would cause a huge fall-out between the couples
Thats the important part. JazakAllah khayr.

Also a ques for any of the brothers - would you convince her to ur way of thinking and not stop until she understood u or would u leave her be?
Reply

------
09-10-2008, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
:salamext:

Hmm....Say...

Would you marry somebody who had diff beliefs to you? i.e. On several things such as Tawassul, waseelah etc etc...

For brothers this may be important but may also be irrelevant since the child takes the religion of the father and the wife should obey her husband in all halal matters anyway.

For sisters, well what do you think? :blind:

WassalamuAlaykum
:wasalamex

Nope. I have a fall out on this between other people, a hubby's relationship is just gonna be totally mashed who I disagree with :-\ Just me.

Meh.
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by - Serene -

:wasalamex

Nope. I have a fall out on this between friends,
:salamext:

Seen :exhausted
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2008, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
Thats the important part. JazakAllah khayr.

Also a ques for any of the brothers - would you convince her to ur way of thinking and not stop until she understood u or would u leave her be?
well... i got a strong feeling she'll do her utmost best to convince me :p in which case i will show her the reasons i believe that which i do.

i wouldnt go on and on about it, but whenever the issue is raised i would have my daleel
Reply

Tania
09-10-2008, 05:08 PM
Mixed marriage according with the Catholic teachings:

1634 .... But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. The temptation to religious indifference can then arise.

1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.137 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.138 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.139
From:http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...2c3a7.htm#1633
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chacha_jalebi
09-10-2008, 05:10 PM
as salaam alaykam

i have a lot of disagreements between my friends on this topic, and we have quite a lot of serious beef, also some people do stuff, which is blatant shirk, and you need to like understand are they doin shirk or not, like even some methods of tawassul like in pakistan they have some peer n awliya and people go to their graves and do all haa dee daa, and call that tawassul, so it depends on how what type of difference,

but it also depends how strongly the person feels about it, like the person couldnt give a crap, if its minor differences like raful yadayn or summin like that, its fine, but major disagreements then i think you should rethink it, because marriage life has its arguments generally, throwin in religious arguments is just like throwin oil in fire
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Re.TiReD
09-10-2008, 05:16 PM
:wasalamex and JazakAllah khayr

I'm the kinda person who will have a fit if anybody tries to change what I think and believe....I think it'd cause major arguments....even though he may masha'Allah be understanding and tolerant and he'd xplain to me with sensitivity...I wouldnt be able to hack it.

SubhanAllah.

And the thing with daleel is, anybody can have daleel, but in the end - who wins? :exhausted :skeleton:
Reply

chacha_jalebi
09-10-2008, 05:26 PM
when i 1st got into islaam, my family wasnt very pleased with the stuff i busted out with, like they were typical pakistanians, like khatam doin, and that, especially my uncle, so i would have a lot of disagreements, but now subhanallah with the help of Allah (swt) my immediate family is all sorted, if you get what i mean, and my uncle is still his same old self, may Allah (swt) bless him, so it was hard for me at 1st, but i believe gentleness, like my uncle was very harsh on me lol, and i wouldnt listen to him, but harshness aint the way,

in a relationship, if my wife had different aqeedah then me, i would show her my evidence, and then she could produce hers, and then you weigh it up, because there is only one islaam, not billions, only one islaam, minor differences are ok, but differences which are shirky and bidahtyy then thats not ok, so when talkin to your spouse, it should be done with gentleness and inshallah you can show them evidence, its not about convincin or forcin your way on them, its about showin them the truth and stuff, anyway im blabbin on here so :D
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Ummu Sufyaan
09-11-2008, 12:16 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
:salamext:

For sisters, well what do you think? :blind:

WassalamuAlaykum
hmmm....depends really...i mean if u mean differing beliefs like grave worshipping...then noooo:skeleton:

ermmm difference of opinion...eg through mathhabs, perhaps...u know maybe if the differences are based on a knowledgeable person in this case the 4 imams

im not sure, i can be so stubborn :-[...ermm the thing id be a lil worried and hesitant about is that i would feel so sure about something but that if the guy were doing the opposite to that and he felt strong about that opinion...and i think that may cause a strong tension between us...get me...i cant always accept the opposite opinion:-[ maybe sometimes...but its sometimes scary too:-[ as i strongly believe its right... i dno maybe i lack understanding...

Bottom line: if i feel that there's gna be a big difference in the belief,than thats gna be a BIG problem for me... So no:)

and also id fear for my kids...you know what they grow up beliving and all...if i feel something is wrong...i cant teach them that believing its wrong...
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-11-2008, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:
opinion...and i think that may cause a strong tension between us...get me...i cant always accept the opposite opinion:-[ maybe sometimes...but its sometimes scary too:-[ as i strongly believe its right... i dno maybe i lack understanding...

and also id fear for my kids...you know what they grow up beliving and all...if i feel something is wrong...i cant teach them that believing its wrong...
:salamext:

JazakAllah khayr sis, I feel the same at some things :exhausted

Sometimes when I believe something I give it all I have and no matter how much I'm persuaded, I find it difficult to change opinions. Wallahu A'lam
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-11-2008, 04:49 PM
:sl:

Would you marry somebody who had diff beliefs to you? i.e. On several things such as Tawassul, waseelah etc etc...
On anything major - no way. For example, if a sister considers making Dua' to other than Allaah as permissible, I wouldn't marry her.

However, on less serious matters, matters in which differences are permissible, I wouldn't mind compromising. The key I think in any potential spouse is that they need to be balanced, and open to learning. If a person keeps an open mind, and is not a bigot towards or against one view or one personality it would be great (speaking generally in the terms of Fiqh, as theology differences cannot be in any major issues such as tawheed, sifaat of Allaah etc). This is saying, for me personally, if I could find a sister that has a similar mindset and her understanding of Islaam and more works with mine, i.e. we're compatible in that sense - I would marry her.

Just because they are so stubbornly fixed to their views and don't want to listen to your daleel.
With all due respect to you sister, I would find it quite arrogant if a person were to assume that they have encompassed all the available dalail (which is vast) in order to decide based on some usool (which they probably even haven't studied) that such and such a ruling is correct! In fact, I don't think a scholar would even dare to say that he's encompassed all the available dalail! That, in my opinion is a very simplistic understanding and it ignores the efforts put in by our past scholars to come up with rulings. The madahib are valid in their usool, and their opinions are valid (not necassarily correct, but really that would take us years of studying to decide what is and what isn't correct) so there begs the question of tolerance. After all, even Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim came from madhabs.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-11-2008, 05:03 PM
^ ahaa and my respected akhee comes making sense,


jazakAllaah khair this thread needed it :D
Reply

Sanam
09-11-2008, 05:15 PM
I personally wouldn't marry someone with different beliefs within Islam. you see we hold a view because we consider it to be correct and the only right one, so why would we want our partner or children to be deviated from the truth, I hope you understand me.

If someone is a salafi lets say, he's going to have a real tough time with lets say a Hanafi, because his views and her views are going to clash big time, so better it is to be with a person of similar beliefs
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-11-2008, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:
If a person keeps an open mind, and is not a bigot towards or against one view or one personality it would be great (speaking generally in the terms of Fiqh, as theology differences cannot be in any major issues such as tawheed, sifaat of Allaah etc)..
:wasalamex

JazakAllahu Khayran Akhee. This and several other posts in this thread are what I needed :thumbs_up

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-11-2008, 05:41 PM
so many times i was close to posting a huge essay...

but seriously i feel sick now, cant believe people consider hanafi/salafi like two different religions.


.... feel extremely sick...
Reply

Re.TiReD
09-11-2008, 05:43 PM
so many times i was close to posting a huge essay...
Please do Akhee.

I need it.

If not at least PM it me please.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-11-2008, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by JσℓιєFℓєυя
Please do Akhee.

I need it.

If not at least PM it me please.
lemme ask you what would be the MAIN problem in marrying a hanafi? answer this and we'll continue the discussion inshaAllaah



bare patiently with me, i have a point here

or wanna take this to pms? upto you
Reply

Sanam
09-11-2008, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
so many times i was close to posting a huge essay...

but seriously i feel sick now, cant believe people consider hanafi/salafi like two different religions.


.... feel extremely sick...
No brother they aren't two different religions. but I'm sure you're aware that they have many differences that can lead to marriage breakdown. I personally know so many marriages that ended disastrously because of the differences. for example Salafis consider it improtant to have a wali for a woman but Hanafis don't, Nikkah is invalid without a wali in Salafi belief and it is valid according to hanafi belief.

So don't consider it to be very unimportant subject when dealing with such marriages.
Reply

...
09-11-2008, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
With all due respect to you sister, I would find it quite arrogant if a person were to assume that they have encompassed all the available dalail (which is vast) in order to decide based on some usool (which they probably even haven't studied) that such and such a ruling is correct! In fact, I don't think a scholar would even dare to say that he's encompassed all the available dalail! That, in my opinion is a very simplistic understanding and it ignores the efforts put in by our past scholars to come up with rulings. The madahib are valid in their usool, and their opinions are valid (not necassarily correct, but really that would take us years of studying to decide what is and what isn't correct) so there begs the question of tolerance. After all, even Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim came from madhabs.
Sorry I think you've taken it all wrong. What I meant was that people following madhhabs tend to believe in what their Imam has said even if clear evidence comes to them (eg from hadith) opposing that view. They stick to their ways regardless and say there must have been a reason that their Imam didn't act upon that certain hadith, not considering the fact that, for example, the Imam may not have come across it.
But not all madhhabis are like that, some are very open-minded masha'Allaah.
I think bad experience puts you off though:X

Before this turns into a taqleed discussion- everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, don't eat me for it! :phew

back on topic...
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SixTen
09-11-2008, 05:54 PM
To marry someone or not - due to slight different beliefs (while being same religion), beliefs which do not nullify ones Islam is indeed a very unjust thing.

These days, it will probably be hard to find 2 people agreeing on all the thousands of issues exactly the same - considering many valid opinions hold for alot of the areas. Even if 2 people are of the same madhab, it is possible to have slight differences.

If you do not believe that their beliefs put them out of the fold of Islam, it should not matter 1 bit.

Also, as you mentioned "Tawassul, waseelah ", I should note that, you should not judge things as shirk, when their is so much evidence and scholar backing on such issues - even if you do not wish to practice it for whatever reason - atleast be open minded and know just how much respectable scholars and schools have permitted these. I understand if however, it was somthing like believing in an incomplete Qur'an.

What I meant was that people following madhhabs tend to believe in what their Imam has said even if clear evidence comes to them (eg from hadith) opposing that view
You also miss the point, of the new style of - posting hadiths without context, that has arisen, and has caused many muslims to leave madhabs - as if they think of themselves as scholars and can rule on such issues. Maybe you should note that, madhabis probably noted the hadiths - if your not a scholar, you should not look at a hadith posted on some site as reason to change your beliefs. Also, I do hope, people trust imaams rather than probable teenagers who had a flick through Bukhari and muslim, or those who have restricted their research to sites like islam-QA, and have ignored huge majority opinions.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-11-2008, 05:57 PM
*EMPHASISED*

Originally Posted by SixTen
To marry someone or not - due to slight different beliefs (while being same religion), beliefs which do not nullify ones Islam is indeed a very unjust thing.

These days, it will probably be hard to find 2 people agreeing on all the thousands of issues exactly the same - considering many valid opinions hold for alot of the areas. Even if 2 people are of the same madhab, it is possible to have slight differences.

If you do not believe that their beliefs put them out of the fold of Islam, it should not matter 1 bit.

Also, as you mentioned "Tawassul, waseelah ", I should note that, you should not judge things as shirk, when their is so much evidence and scholar backing on such issues - even if you do not wish to practice it for whatever reason - atleast be open minded and know just how much respectable scholars and schools have permitted these. I understand if however, it was somthing like believing in an incomplete Qur'an.



You also miss the point, of the new style of - posting hadiths without context, that has arisen, and has caused many muslims to leave madhabs - as if they think of themselves as scholars and can rule on such issues.
*EMPHASISED*



differences will happen no matter what really, it happened between the sahabis, it happened between the tabieen, it happened between ashari maturidi and ibn taymiyyah, and it'll continue happening.

hold onto laa ilaaha illallaah to the end, thats whats important
Reply

Sanam
09-11-2008, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
You also miss the point, of the new style of - posting hadiths without context, that has arisen, and has caused many muslims to leave madhabs - as if they think of themselves as scholars and can rule on such issues. Maybe you should note that, madhabis probably noted the hadiths - if your not a scholar, you should not look at a hadith posted on some site as reason to change your beliefs. Also, I do hope, people trust imaams rather than probable teenagers who had a flick through Bukhari and muslim, or those who have restricted their research to sites like islam-QA, and have ignored huge majority opinions.
I completely agree with you on that! Mash'Allah a really good point that most of us overlook.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-11-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sanam
No brother they aren't two different religions. but I'm sure you're aware that they have many differences that can lead to marriage breakdown. I personally know so many marriages that ended disastrously because of the differences. for example Salafis consider it improtant to have a wali for a woman but Hanafis don't, Nikkah is invalid without a wali in Salafi belief and it is valid according to hanafi belief.

So don't consider it to be very unimportant subject when dealing with such marriages.
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,




The short and simple answer to your question is that: No, the Hanafi School does not, in any way, promote or encourage a marriage without the approval of one’s parents or a legal guardian (wali).

To elaborate: It is a common misconception that the Hanafi School unreservedly allows a marriage without the consent of the woman’s parents or her guardian (wali). However, the matter is not as simple as that, and one must understand the Hanafi position properly before coming to any sort of conclusion.

In contrast to the position of most other scholars including the three Sunni Schools of Islamic law, the Hanafi School indeed has some leeway in regards to the necessity of obtaining the consent of the woman’s guardian. The relied upon position within the School is that the marriage of a free, sane and adult woman without the approval of her guardian (wali) is valid if the person she is marrying is a “legal” and suitable match (kuf’) to her. Conversely, if the person she is marrying is not a legal match to her, then her marriage is considered invalid. (Radd al-Muhtar ala ‘l-Durr al-Mukhtar 3/56-57 & I’la al-Sunan 11/69. For more details and the relevant evidences, please refer to the answer previously posted on this website titled: “Divorced woman marrying without her guardian’s approval”).

However, this does not mean that such a marriage is encouraged or permitted without any blame. Disobeying one’s parents is one of the most serious of sins in Islam, and as such, no School would, and can, allow going against the wishes of one’s parents outright. Many Hanafi jurists (fuqaha) have pointed out that it is generally blameworthy and going against the Sunnah to marry without the consent of the Wali regardless of whether the spouse is a legal match or otherwise due to the many Hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) emphasising the importance of having the approval of one’s guardian such as: “Any woman who marries without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, invalid, invalid” (related by Ibn Hibban, Tirmidhi and others, and Tirmidhi considered it a sound/hasan Hadith) and: “There is no marriage without the [permission of a] guardian” (related by Hakim and Abu Dawud). (See: Imdad al-Muftin P: 527)

As such, this Hanafi position is merely a concession (rukhsa) which may be resorted to in situations of need, and a blessing for those sisters who fall victim to their parent’s mistreatment and abuse. In cases where parents force their daughters to marry against their wishes based purely on caste, wealth and other similar preferences, and not Islam, and they give importance to their personal gains over and above the interests of their daughters; this position of the Hanafi School can be an important haven. However, the Hanafi School, in no way, gives a green light for sisters to marry themselves without parental approval in all situations, and as such, this position must not be taken as a standard norm upon which marriage contracts are based.

Thus, a woman must first try and convince her parents or Wali to allow her to marry according to her wishes. She may use the intermediary of someone who may be able to influence her parents. Despite trying, if her parents are still being difficult, and her wish is to marry someone based on religious piety, she should present her case to a knowledge, wise and god-fearing scholar who may be able to advise whether she may marry without her guardian’s approval or not.

And Allah knows best



Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK
:D lol
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Re.TiReD
09-11-2008, 06:06 PM
:salamext:

Lol I hope this thread doesnt get mashed now. I dint need it anymore alhamdulillah :D

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

IB-Staff
09-11-2008, 06:06 PM
Ok. I gave this thread another chance, but seems like it can't continue without attacking each other or turning it into a sectarian debate on who's right and who's wrong.

Sadly, thread closed.
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