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Thinker
09-24-2008, 08:47 AM
I joined this forum to learn; by learn I mean to gain an understanding. In that regard I’d like to know why so many of you don’t want to read anything other than austere, pius and ‘on message’ posts? Many of my posts are deleted and I get many negative ‘reputation’ responses to my posts. Non of my post have been offensive, not even those responding to offensive posts yet clearly some of you are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.

So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?

I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?

There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable; is that what you want – to drive away anyone who questions the validity of what you believe (and by that I am not talking about God, I’m talking about questions like whether to pluck or shave, or listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?
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Hamayun
09-24-2008, 09:49 AM
I am sorry you feel that way. I don't feel threatened by you or your posts because whatever you say in your posts has already been done to death by Atheists all over the world. There is nothing new or original in your posts to be threatened of.

While some people nit pick insignificant details about the history of Islam some of us prefer to look at the bigger picture and the actual essence and principles of Islam.

No hard feelings :)
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Malaikah
09-24-2008, 12:09 PM
Maybe if you stopped saying offensive things people wouldn't get offended!

Prime example, when you said:

I'm narrow m inded!!! Most people in this world, for all the right reasons, care about what others think of them. You need to ask yourself "what would would they think of me by refusing to shake their hand?" Then you need to ask yourself the question "in refusing to shake that persons hand (in the name of Islam) what image does that portray of Islam?" I would suggest that the refusing to shake that mans hand would not only protray your self as a radical fundamentalist it would also portrary Islam as a radical fundamentalist religion. Is that the image you want to portray?
The point I was trying to make was - if she is living in a non Muslim country she needs to take into account the affect her refusal to shake hands would have. If I put out my hand and someone refused to shake it I would be offended. If your beliefs are THAT fundamental then perhaps you shouldn't live in a culture where hand shakes are the norm.
Radical fundamentalist who should leave the country because - gasp shock horror - we don't shake hands with people of the opposite gender?! Honestly, how do you expect us to respond to such a display of intolerance?!

Just today I had to refuse to shake a mans hand and he didn't sit there fuming about it, he totally understood and let it pass. It's just a hand shake. It isn't the end of the world. And certainly no reason to leave the country.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-24-2008, 12:12 PM
lol the amount of times i've answered your questions i lost count

i dont want to live in a bubble, i want the TRUTH !


but YOU should try to be more open minded! and try to see OUR reasoning behind what we choose to follow !
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Re.TiReD
09-24-2008, 12:27 PM
:D

Hello Tinker

are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.
I havnt read many of your posts, simply because I find them annoying and thats the truth. Not because you ask questions I feel uncomfortable with, but because I use this forum to help me in my quest for Knowledge, and to be frank I think I'd be rather lame at answering questions.

So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?
Ask by all means, but ask in a way that doesnt seem derogatory or mocking the topic you are asking about. At least some level of respect on an Islamic forum huh?

I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?
I want to learn. The above is a sweeping statement. I dont want to live in a bubble, I want to learn more about the TRUTH! Some of the questions you ask, all you have to do is read a little about Islam.

There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable;
Ask the existing ones how they feel? :)

I’m talking about questions like whether you listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?
Dont listen to music, and love ur spouse passionately and u should be ok :)
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aamirsaab
09-24-2008, 12:56 PM
:sl:
You came at the wrong time :p. Since it's ramadhan, most of us are not online so you won't be getting as great a response as you would on any other day or month. Try after ramadhan (about a weeks time).


Oh and we don't want to live in a bubble; the whole point of this site is to educate muslims and non-muslims about Islam.
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glo
09-24-2008, 04:06 PM
Hi Thinker

I read your post this morning ... and I have been thinking about it ever since. :D

I agree with some of the things you write.
As a non-Muslims I too blunder into situations where I feel I am just asking a harmless question, and I can tell by peoples' responses that my question has hit a nerve or offended in some way - without that having been my intention.

I am perhaps one of the longest-standing non-Muslim members here is LI. I have learned over the years that Muslims care about their religion deeply, and that many seem to take offence more quickly than perhaps non-Muslims would.

Like you I love to understand other people, how they think, how they feel, what makes them tick etc etc.
But I think sometimes there is just no point in trying to understand - we have have to accept that Muslims may feel differently about certain topics than we do!

You also have to bear in mind that many Muslims here in LI are converts, who receive their fair share of criticism from their friends, family and community. LI may be their safe haven, where they can come to be amongst fellow Muslims who share their views and beliefs.
I can understand that it may be annoying to then find another bunch of non-Muslims here in the forum asking questions (some of which may seem silly, and others challenging).

As for 'wanting to live in a bubble', for me as a Christian I can relate to that to some extend.
As it happens I live in a very secular country, doing a secular job, living in a secular family. I have learned (had to learn!) to engage with all kinds of other worldviews and beliefs.
But sometimes I feel the happiest and the most at ease when I am with fellow Christians. It's as if I can relax and be myself!

I am a member in a multi-faith forum, and sometimes when I chat and discuss there I experience the line quite strongly - a line which takes me too far from my own core beliefs; a line which seems unhealthy, almost dangerous to cross.
Perhaps we all have such a line, which sets the boundaries of our personal beliefs?
Perhaps you have your own line too?
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Thinker
09-24-2008, 10:03 PM
Much as I would like to get into the detail of my posts that were deleted and much as I would like to take on individuals who have been irritated by my posts and notwithstanding that I have emailed all you who gave me negative ‘reputation’ points inviting you to respond to my thread here, I will avoid doing so as that will get my posts deleted and possibly the thread deleted . . . . . so I will generalise.

First off, I am not an atheist I am an agnostic and joined this forum with an open mind and honest heart to learn about Islam and Muslims. I have never spoken negatively of the Qur’an or Mohammed (although I reserve the right to do so if I find something that I believe deserves questioning). I HAVE spoken negatively about HYPOCRITES (but compared to the scathing remarks in the Qur’an about hypocrites mine have been mild). I have questioned many hadith and have occasionally asked questions which clearly take the discussion on a particular hadith or fatwa to a point where it (the hadith) becomes ludicrous. I have also posted comments which (to me are humorous) but clearly some of you handed in your humour badges when you embraced fundamental Islam.

If someone says “I am a man and I wouldn’t shake the hands of a westerner because they are dirty” and I ask the question “with those views I am sure you will want to live in a Muslim country,” and my post is deleted and his isn’t, what sort of message does that give me?

If someone says, “I know a man who raised 3 sons to fight the kaffir and they all died and he is now raising his 5 year old to fight the kaffir,” and respond “why doesn’t he go and fight and die himself instead of sacrificing his sons” and my post is deleted and his isn’t, what sort of message does that give me?

If I suggest that the hadith on a female not touching a mans hand has been erroneously interpreted giving a sound logical structured argument and the post is deleted, what sort of message does that give me?

If someone writes a lengthy post on the reasons why we should fight to avoid the evils of passionate love and I reply humorously “I agree, give me the boring love every time,” and the post is deleted, what sort of message does that give me?

The message it gives me is that you want to live in a bubble and a bubble which prohibits anyone with any ideas which might negatively impact on your austere, pius, struggle (jihad) to become even more devout than the Muslims stood next to you. It’s like your in a competition for a prize for the most austere, the most pius, the most devout.

Just my humble, unworthy, non Muslims opinion no doubt about to be deleted!!
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S_87
09-24-2008, 10:23 PM
Peace Thinker

Thanks for that post, I myself and i believe many muslims tend to answer non muslims questions quite defensively. The reason being is you may not know of this but many non muslims come onto islamic forums to attack us and our religion, to feel sorry for women of islam- in short to degrade us. This has made us-and maybe a little hasty at times- judge as a whole. Quite a few non muslims have come here and actually learnt and been totally fine, but a lot have left double messages, hints and frankly speaking not only is it not needed but its the push over the edge for many muslims.
We're normal people with dreams ambitions and views. Islam is a big part of our lives but we are all different in our own ways.

Its not what is said, its how things are said sometimes... :)
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dilkadr
09-25-2008, 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I joined this forum to learn; by learn I mean to gain an understanding. In that regard I’d like to know why so many of you don’t want to read anything other than austere, pius and ‘on message’ posts? Many of my posts are deleted and I get many negative ‘reputation’ responses to my posts. Non of my post have been offensive, not even those responding to offensive posts yet clearly some of you are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.
Actually to learn we need an open and broad mindset i.e. open to new things and broad enough to welcome wildest ideas or absolute opposition.

Unfortunately, most of us are not like this. We think we are complete and what we know is perfect. Any thing not confirming to us is wrong. Even if we are mismatching to the truth...

Also, we are not open to test our own thoughts, customs or learning we have acquired so far...

Originally Posted by Thinker
So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?
Yes, most of us are afraid of truth. We fear if we found the truth and it is mismatching to us then where would we go... lolz, so do not find the truth or support the person searching the truth...

Originally Posted by Thinker
I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?
It is easy to live with what we have then putting ourselves to hardship of finding the best...

Originally Posted by Thinker
There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable; is that what you want – to drive away anyone who questions the validity of what you believe (and by that I am not talking about God, I’m talking about questions like whether to pluck or shave, or listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?
I can say for myself. Thanks to Allah I was born to Muslim parents... but most of my religion knowledge was just a set customs or family tradition... By the mercy of Allah, somehow I just improved my knowledge and still searching for more...
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TrueStranger
09-25-2008, 02:01 AM
Thinker

I joined this forum to learn; by learn I mean to gain an understanding. In that regard I’d like to know why so many of you don’t want to read anything other than austere, pius and ‘on message’ posts? Many of my posts are deleted and I get many negative ‘reputation’ responses to my posts. Non of my post have been offensive, not even those responding to offensive posts yet clearly some of you are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.
It’s good to know that you have joined this forum to learn and gain more knowledge about Islam. I don’t know why your posts are deleted, and I also don’t know why you are so concerned with what other members want to read. If they wish to read “austere posts”, then that is their personal choice. I have personally never sent any particular member the “negative reputation” responses, and I am certain I won’t in the near future. What is offensive to some people might not be offensive to others, so that is always up for debate. Again what might seem or appear to be “absurd or silly” might be a crucial issue for others. If you find certain things about Islam absurd or silly, then that is your personal opinion, and it has no influence on any aspect of Islam.



So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?
I don’t think it is wise of you to exalt yourself to a level where you think that people are actually threatened or disturbed by your presence here. I mostly browse the “learn about Islam” forums, and barely read threads like this. I do not come to a final conclusion about a certain poster by merely reading a post. Addressing the subject at hand is more important to me than addressing the individual’s character or traits. You haven’t done or said anything that would actually make me feel threatened by you.



I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?
I have no idea how you came to form such a critical view about the majority of the posters on this board so quickly. I’m not going to be arrogant and think that I have a sense of security when it comes to my faith. I question my faith every day simply because of the ideas, perceptions, or influential or provoking characters which I’m in connect with everyday. I doubt myself, as a believer, whether I am true to myself and Allah, or whether my outside actions are in harmony with my inner perceptions and beliefs. One of the verses in the Quran comes to mind “They were closer to disbelief that day than to faith, saying with their mouths what was not in their hearts. And Allah knows best what they are hiding. (3:167) “. I pray to Allah that I don’t doubt Him, the teaching of Islam, or the Prophet (PBUH). I grew up in a Western society, being highly ignorant about Islam, whether it was prayer or the Quran, and it was by the Grace of Allah that I’m able to actually comprehend the beauty of Islam. What more can I do but be a thankful slave of Allah.

There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable; is that what you want – to drive away anyone who questions the validity of what you believe (and by that I am not talking about God, I’m talking about questions like whether to pluck or shave, or listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?
Well, it is an Islamic board; I doubt many nonbelievers are interested in Islam these days. However I don’t know why there are few of them, since I don’t have any knowledge of the unseen. As for “driving” them way, they leave on their own and they come on their own account. No one is chopping off their heads. I really don’t see anyone point in questioning about a faith which one does not believe in. As believers we question to understand more about our faith, as for the non-believers they question to challenge a faith which they refuse to accept internally. I don’t question any other faith by Islam, and I only do so to gain more knowledge.

Salaam
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dilkadr
09-25-2008, 03:04 AM
I feel Islamic Board / LI Forums are a bit restricted. There are a number of topics prohibited - those topics have both good and bad potentials but we should allow to discus them... admins can kill such threads if they are going off way...
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dilkadr
09-25-2008, 03:10 AM
I think people are afraid off new knowledge and they just want to discuss historical things... practical and modern ideas are not much welcomed in Muslims world... that is why [we] Muslims got a reputation of fundamentalists... maybe it is offending to some readers but it is fact. We are more interested to stick with some historical things and try to ignore new developments and modern things.

let me share one observation.

once i went to a masjid near my house and was amazed to see a young man was sweeping the outer court with a long leaf of [date] Palm tree.

because it is the way of sweeping in the past years...

Strange but true...
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alcurad
09-25-2008, 05:06 AM
hmm do I sense a kindred spirit looking for that button that solves the ummah's problems as well

Originally Posted by dilkadr
I think people are afraid off new knowledge and they just want to discuss historical things... practical and modern ideas are not much welcomed in Muslims world... that is why [we] Muslims got a reputation of fundamentalists... maybe it is offending to some readers but it is fact. We are more interested to stick with some historical things and try to ignore new developments and modern things.
I second that. add to that, much of those historical 'facts' need filtering to remove salt I mean cultural dribblets.

btw in Islam fundamentals are important, I don't know much about other systems of belief but even there fundamentals are well, fundamental, no ?>
may I suggest using the term over literalism instead?

oh and don't worry Thinker, even some muslims here get discriminated against by some other muslims, it's life, we deal with it :)
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جوري
09-25-2008, 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I joined this forum to learn; by learn I mean to gain an understanding. In that regard I’d like to know why so many of you don’t want to read anything other than austere, pius and ‘on message’ posts? Many of my posts are deleted and I get many negative ‘reputation’ responses to my posts. Non of my post have been offensive, not even those responding to offensive posts yet clearly some of you are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.

So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?

I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?

There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable; is that what you want – to drive away anyone who questions the validity of what you believe (and by that I am not talking about God, I’m talking about questions like whether to pluck or shave, or listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?
Greetings Thinker..

It is hard for me to believe that you have not met a single Muslim person in France with them having a population of 5mil or so, from my understanding across the spectrum from Lebanese to Iranians to Moroccans.. with different level of understanding and religiosity, different jobs and walks of life...
I have seen Muslim DJ's as I have seen Muslim surgeons

I believe those who may have given you negative reps, myself included have more than made up for it with an apology, a reply to your thread as well a positive rep that doubles whatever I have subtracted from you?

Sometimes there is a bitter caustic undertone to queries.. and one simply can't discern intent from written words alone, there is also tone of voice and body language missing from this formula..

So few Muslims now a days are trying to walk aright.. it is indeed a time of great tribulations you may read about it here
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/unseen/0002.htm

http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/Signs.htm

  • 'Abdullâh ibn 'Umar said, "The Prophet (SAW) came to us and said, 'O Muhajirun, (emigrants from Makkah to al-Madînah) you may be afflicted by five things; God forbid that you should live to see them. If fornication should become widespread, you should realise that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people which their forebears never suffered. If people should begin to cheat in weighing out goods, you should realise that this has never happened without drought and famine befalling the people, and their rulers oppressing them. If people should withhold Zakat, you should realise that this has never happened without the rain being stopped from falling; and were it not for the animals' sake, it would never rain again. If people should break their covenant with Allâh and His Messenger, you should realise that his has never happened without Allâh sending an enemy against them to take some of their possessions by force. If the leaders do not govern according to the Book of Allâh, you should realise that this has never happened without Allâh making them into groups and making them fight one another.' " (Ibn Majah).


most people that come here, really want to learn their faith, renew it and walk aright without the usual insults, you can't find any blog even if talking about something as stupid as the gay singer clay Aiken without some insult to practicing Muslims..

Believe me there is nothing more rampant in the middle east, than singers, DJ's, belly dancers and people who will do plenty more than shake hands with you.. so why do some begrudge the practicing few their right to observe as they see fit?

we all have lives outside of here.. and it is nice to find an Islamic forum when there are thousands of anti-ISlamic forum.. in fact this is one of the most allowing forums I have encountered..

Every time I write MSNBC or CNN or NY times, none of my comments get published.. I know of scholars who have written back to the Washington post after vehement incorrect attacks about their person-- again were never published, in a country that claims it loves freedom of speech, and accuse Muslims of denying it and our women as obsequious servants as if any have actually interviewed any sister to see why in the land of the free she still chooses a modest gown, perhaps she isn't under threat, but her choice? .. in fact it is certain that the freedom intended here is only to act by standards set by the west when.there is no consensus among them on the way things are to be conceived or acted upon. If tolerance and freedom applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of the very concepts you promote-- tolerance, and freedom which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. That would mean indigenous tribes, Amish folks, Chassidic etc etc..

So no, we don't want to live in a bubble, we simply want to hold on to our values..

Hope that answers your Q?
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Malaikah
09-25-2008, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
If someone says “I am a man and I wouldn’t shake the hands of a westerner because they are dirty” and I ask the question “with those views I am sure you will want to live in a Muslim country,” and my post is deleted and his isn’t, what sort of message does that give me?
Excuse me?! If you talking about the thread about shaking hands?? No one ever said that!!!! Or at least I certainly did not see anyone say that!!!

The whole issue is that Muslims don't shake hands with members of the opposite gender - it has nothing to do with being dirty or being western!!!! It's our way of being modest.

And honestly, I can't believe you sat still calling us fundamentalists and acting like you are the victim here.
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'Abd-al Latif
09-25-2008, 01:32 PM
I completely agree with sister Malaikah. I had a job interview recently and I refused to shake the hand of my interviewer because she was of the oposite gender and she no problem with that at all. It was nothing to do with the fact that she was 'western' or 'non-muslim', in fact I wouldn't even shake the hands of the some of the muslim woman in my family because of the Islamic ettiquettes.

Imam Ahmad narrated with a saheeh isnaad from Umaymah bint Raqeeqah that she said: "I came to the Messenger of Allah (saaws) with other women to give the oath of allegiance to him, and he accepted our pledge to abide by what is in the Qur'an… We said: 'O Messenger of Allah, will you not shake hands with us?' He said, "I do not shake hands with women. Rather what I say to a hundred woman is what I would say to one woman."

Ma’qil ibn Yasaar (r) narrated that the Prophet (saaws) said: "If one of you were to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle, that would be better for him than touching a woman who is not permissible for him." (Narrated by al-Tabaraani; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ (no. 5045))

Thus, there is no distinction between muslim and non-muslim, whether young or old, western or not the ruling is the same. I'm sure you would not want other men to touch your wife, nor would you like a young school boy to touch any part of your daughter so lets not have double standards.
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glo
09-25-2008, 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Excuse me?! If you talking about the thread about shaking hands?? No one ever said that!!!! Or at least I certainly did not see anyone say that!!!

The whole issue is that Muslims don't shake hands with members of the opposite gender - it has nothing to do with being dirty or being western!!!! It's our way of being modest.

And honestly, I can't believe you sat still calling us fundamentalists and acting like you are the victim here.
I'm afraid I do remember somebody making a comment in the thread in question about not shaking Westerners hands because 'they are dirty and don't wash their hands after gong to the toilet' ...

That's not to say that is the opinion of all other Muslims, but the comment was certainly made by one Muslim.

I suppose it shows how careful we have to be when we post in forums such as this. Whatever we say may be interpreted by other members as representative of everybody who shares the same faith as we do ...
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BlissfullyJaded
09-25-2008, 02:55 PM
Undoubtedly there will be some who do come across as wanting to live in a bubble, and to be honest it bugs me just as much as it bugs you. If they want to be insulting to the culture they live in, then that it isn't cool. However, if we refuse to shake hands with the opposite gender because they are the opposite gender, I think that is fair. We respect them all the same, we just wish to not shake their hand. I do shake hands / hug female non Muslims though, and as many already know, most of my friends are non Muslim.

This also happens to be a private run forum, and the admins created the rules, which have to be abided by. If your posts were deleted, then chances are they were deleted for a reason stated and if not stated then send a PM to the mod who deleted it and ask him/her why they did that.

I think people are afraid off new knowledge and they just want to discuss historical things... practical and modern ideas are not much welcomed in Muslims world... that is why [we] Muslims got a reputation of fundamentalists... maybe it is offending to some readers but it is fact. We are more interested to stick with some historical things and try to ignore new developments and modern things.
I don't get that. :? What type of practical / modern ideas are being rejected?
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Thinker
09-25-2008, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Excuse me?! If you talking about the thread about shaking hands?? No one ever said that!!!! Or at least I certainly did not see anyone say that!!!

The whole issue is that Muslims don't shake hands with members of the opposite gender - it has nothing to do with being dirty or being western!!!! It's our way of being modest.

And honestly, I can't believe you sat still calling us fundamentalists and acting like you are the victim here.
“I am a man and I wouldn’t shake the hands of a westerner because they are dirty”

This was posted - you may not have read that post but it was posted and it was the post to which I responded. My post was deleted and I complained to the moderator who deleted my post that the post I was responding to was offensive and I accused her of operating double standards, only then did she delete that post.
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Thinker
09-25-2008, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I completely agree with sister Malaikah. I had a job interview recently and I refused to shake the hand of my interviewer.

Thus, there is no distinction between muslim and non-muslim, whether young or old, western or not the ruling is the same. I'm sure you would not want other men to touch your wife, nor would you like a young school boy to touch any part of your daughter so lets not have double standards.
I think you hit the naiol on the head there - there's 'touching' and then there is 'touching.' In this instance, we're talking about a hand shake which is, in the country in which most of you reside, culturally, the accepted way of greating.

With regards to the question of not touching hands and the verses quoted stating it is forbidden, in the thread in question I put forward the suggestion that touching a woman’s hand didn’t mean literally her hand it was a euphemism for sexual knowledge of her. That post was deleted !!! I re-posted the logically deduced argument at http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...cholars-2.html).
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Thinker
09-25-2008, 06:18 PM
Thank you all for replying to my post here.

It has been said that if we understand each other we will stand a better chance of living a peaceful and harmonious co-existence. If that is correct it goes both ways and that includes (in my humble opinion) all Muslims understanding the effect that the actions of a few fundamentalists have on the perceptions of their neighbours. It is also been said that ‘we shouldn’t judge a book by its cover’ but that’s been said because rightly or wrongly we DO judge people by the way we look and the way we act. And, I would suggest that because a westerner says he understands and respects your choice not to shake his hand it is because culturally our first priority is to be polite and avoid embarrassment; in reality they don’t understand a religion that forbids a gesture which means peace, goodwill and friendship. In going to such extremes (and in my opinion not shaking hands is extreme) you (again in my opinion) damage your own image and the image of Islam.

I believe I am a normal, average, tolerant, inclusive, Britain so why do I feel such actions (refusing to shake hands etc) are ‘extreme?’ I feel they are extreme because the people doing it appear to be striving to prove they are more devout than the Muslim next door. Some of you here appear to be in a constant search for an obscure piece of scripture that can be interpreted as a command to cover up more or isolate and distance yourself from non believers. And, I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.

The other thing I am struck by here with you is the lack of humour. A couple of my deleted posts were (again in my opinion, harmless humour) and were deleted as unnecessary or in the wrong place and when I’ve asked for clarification I have been told humour is allowed but only in the appropriate section (a section of the forum for humour!!). I have read some posts where the contributors appear to be in a struggle to purge yourselves of anything trivial, fun or humorous less that takes you away from the pain you feel you must put yourself through to prove to God that you are earnest and serious. Of course there’s nothing wrong in that but is that the impression you want to portray?

Of course Muslims contributing here might not be representative of the Muslim community, I don’t know as I have no contact with any Muslims (other than my dentist).

All that said, I am pleased that so far my posts here haven’t been deleted and I am particularly pleased that many of the posts here show an understanding of the points I am trying to make.

Thanks again

Thinker
Reply

Thinker
09-25-2008, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
And honestly, I can't believe you sat still calling us fundamentalists and acting like you are the victim here.
One of the points I have been trying to make is that (in my opinion) Islam is the victim because of the image given to it by those amongst you who pursue a fundamental and radical way of life.
Reply

Uthman
09-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Hi Thinker,

I would just like to respond to one of your points.

Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.
A couple of points to make here. Firstly, it's not like a refusal to shake somebody's hand is illegal in this country. It's perfectly possible to be a good British citizen whilst still observing religious practices. Secondly, you must understand that many people on the forum are quite young, so we aren't in this country by choice. Many of us are here simply because our parents decided to come to this country. Personally, I'm seriously considering moving (in the future) to a different country where it is easier to practise my faith.

Regards
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
09-25-2008, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I think you hit the naiol on the head there - there's 'touching' and then there is 'touching.' In this instance, we're talking about a hand shake which is, in the country in which most of you reside, culturally, the accepted way of greating.

With regards to the question of not touching hands and the verses quoted stating it is forbidden, in the thread in question I put forward the suggestion that touching a woman’s hand didn’t mean literally her hand it was a euphemism for sexual knowledge of her. That post was deleted !!! I re-posted the logically deduced argument at http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...olars-2.html).
Islam forbids the things that lead to haram and regards them as being haraam too. So if something as little as a hand shake can provoke desires then this is forbidden because it's something that leads to something that is haram. So if either type of touching (which you mention) leads to something that is haram then it is without a doubt haram regardless of which one is more obvious.

Originally Posted by Thinker
One of the points I have been trying to make is that (in my opinion) Islam is the victim because of the image given to it by those amongst you who pursue a fundamental and radical way of life.
Islam is presented to you clearly, and there is no one here who is following this religion without evidences from al-Qur'an and sunnah.

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (i.e. Muhammad) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much"

[al-Ahzaab 33:21]

Rather, I would urge you to look past your limited views to understand the Islamic perspective and not what corrisponds to ones own standards. After all, to err is human.
Reply

glo
09-25-2008, 07:31 PM
Thinker, you may find that a certain amount of fun and banter returns to LI after Ramadan.
During the month of Ramadan Muslims are meant to focus on their spiritual path and try to abstain from things which may be a distraction from that (such as meaningless gossip, heated debates, and yes fun too). That's why several sections are closed at the moment.

I hope you stick around. :)
Reply

S_87
09-25-2008, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Thank you all for replying to my post here.

I believe I am a normal, average, tolerant, inclusive, Britain so why do I feel such actions (refusing to shake hands etc) are ‘extreme?’ I feel they are extreme because the people doing it appear to be striving to prove they are more devout than the Muslim next door. Some of you here appear to be in a constant search for an obscure piece of scripture that can be interpreted as a command to cover up more or isolate and distance yourself from non believers. And, I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.

The other thing I am struck by here with you is the lack of humour. A couple of my deleted posts were (again in my opinion, harmless humour) and were deleted as unnecessary or in the wrong place and when I’ve asked for clarification I have been told humour is allowed but only in the appropriate section (a section of the forum for humour!!). I have read some posts where the contributors appear to be in a struggle to purge yourselves of anything trivial, fun or humorous less that takes you away from the pain you feel you must put yourself through to prove to God that you are earnest and serious. Of course there’s nothing wrong in that but is that the impression you want to portray?

Of course Muslims contributing here might not be representative of the Muslim community, I don’t know as I have no contact with any Muslims (other than my dentist).



Thinker
To each their own to be honest, and muslims posting here are representitive to the muslim community because we ourselves are muslims. We are mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, husbands, wives, doctors, teachers, lawyers, students...and the list goes on. We are muslim with all that. We have limits within our actions. We laugh (yes we do) we cry, were serious and silly- we're human.

I know you may not mean to do so, but the way you talk makes it sound as if muslims are a different species.
So what if we dont know to shake a member of the opposite genders hand? its not the end of the world. if you think thats extreme then you dont know what extreme is. :?
Reply

Najm
09-25-2008, 07:47 PM
Peace

Id like to point out, this is only my opinion...

Depends what the word bubble implies. Does bubble mean western way of life? Does bubble mean a society of britain?:?

Your bubble may not be the same as anyone's, neither may be mine.The only bubble that im living in, is the bubble of Islam: the divine way of life. It is whats best for humanity as a whole As humans we are weak, and we are learning to strive. Only the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSalam) is the perfect man, and we should do everything we can to be like him. If he didnt shake hands with the opposite gender, then im not, if he didnt drink, then im not, if he didnt slander, then im not.....

When the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSalam) made drinking haram, there was a companion who was drinking, who just found out, what do you think he did?.....Do you think he questioned?....Of course not, he spat out what he was drinking. This is how we should be. This is what people will start to do when their deen is stronger.

Sometimes people have to just accept it, rather than understand, who are we to question our lord? When the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSalam) made pork haram, the companions didnt question it, even though all the people at that time loved have pork. They accepted it, through time, through science, we find out why pork haram.

A person chooses, what they want to do. They may do whatever they want in this world. If someone doesnt want to shake their hand thats fine, other things such as a greeting is suffices. If you are understanding, then you would know we are not trying to offend you.

This post is something i ask myself, and then you...:rollseyes

Lets not dwell on this issue any longer and move on

Forgive me , if i said anything incorrect, or didnt make sense. or offended anyone

Peace....
NAJM
P.s im deeply sorry for not being able to find the references:-[
Reply

dilkadr
09-25-2008, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
Undoubtedly there will be some who do come across as wanting to live in a bubble, and to be honest it bugs me just as much as it bugs you. If they want to be insulting to the culture they live in, then that it isn't cool. However, if we refuse to shake hands with the opposite gender because they are the opposite gender, I think that is fair. We respect them all the same, we just wish to not shake their hand. I do shake hands / hug female non Muslims though, and as many already know, most of my friends are non Muslim.

This also happens to be a private run forum, and the admins created the rules, which have to be abided by. If your posts were deleted, then chances are they were deleted for a reason stated and if not stated then send a PM to the mod who deleted it and ask him/her why they did that.


I don't get that. :? What type of practical / modern ideas are being rejected?
:sl:

You are lucky if you have not came across such situations...

Just look around in the Muslims' world especially in India-Pakistan-Afghanistan... Until now forced marriages are in practice; people are kill girl child for a numerous reasons - most horrible is honor killings. Not allowing women to drive or travel regardless of her specific situations and a lot of other things are there - and yes... until now [we] Muslim have not developed a financial system except blaming existing system of Riba...

There is a common answer to all such things - Islam is not responsible for individual actions. I agree Islam is the best system, but [we] followers of Islam are not the best people.

:w:
Reply

dilkadr
09-25-2008, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I think you hit the naiol on the head there - there's 'touching' and then there is 'touching.' In this instance, we're talking about a hand shake which is, in the country in which most of you reside, culturally, the accepted way of greating.

With regards to the question of not touching hands and the verses quoted stating it is forbidden, in the thread in question I put forward the suggestion that touching a woman’s hand didn’t mean literally her hand it was a euphemism for sexual knowledge of her. That post was deleted !!! I re-posted the logically deduced argument at http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...cholars-2.html).
Interesting, BTW on what grounds,,, In Sura Tauba it is told Non-Muslims should be expelled from the Holy City of Makkah... But on what ground Muslims can behave like this - it is pretty mush shocking to me... I wonder how narrow minded are we... Islam is peace and love, isn't it???
Reply

S_87
09-25-2008, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by dilkadr
:sl:

You are lucky if you have not came across such situations...

Just look around in the Muslims' world especially in India-Pakistan-Afghanistan... Until now forced marriages are in practice; people are kill girl child for a numerous reasons - most horrible is honor killings. Not allowing women to drive or travel regardless of her specific situations and a lot of other things are there - and yes... until now [we] Muslim have not developed a financial system except blaming existing system of Riba...

There is a common answer to all such things - Islam is not responsible for individual actions. I agree Islam is the best system, but [we] followers of Islam are not the best people.

:w:
whats wrong with a woman needing a mahram to travel?
Reply

جوري
09-25-2008, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by amani
whats wrong with a woman needing a mahram to travel?
Nothing is wrong.. but one might not always be readily available..

:w:
Reply

Chuck
09-25-2008, 11:09 PM
Why shaking hands is such a big issue? End of the world is coming?
Reply

Malaikah
09-26-2008, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
In going to such extremes (and in my opinion not shaking hands is extreme) you (again in my opinion) damage your own image and the image of Islam.
We aren't going to change Islam just to make you happy (especially not over something as simple as a hand shake!!).

I believe I am a normal, average, tolerant, inclusive, Britain so why do I feel such actions (refusing to shake hands etc) are ‘extreme?’
Tolerant? You certainly aren't showing that side here.

I feel they are extreme because the people doing it appear to be striving to prove they are more devout than the Muslim next door.
And now you are wrongly accusing us. Judgemental, much? Who gave you the power of being able to see into the hearts of others?

Some of you here appear to be in a constant search for an obscure piece of scripture that can be interpreted as a command to cover up more or isolate and distance yourself from non believers.
That is so not true I don't even know what to say. And it certainly doesn't apply to the hand shaking issue - especially since the majority of Muslim scholars have always deemed it to be forbidden.

And, I believe it is HYPOCRITICAL of you, when you feel so diametrically opposed to the culture of the country in which you live to continue to stay there just because it provides a better (worldly not spiritually) quality of life.
Judgemental again. Where do you want us to go? To the Muslim lands, where people as un-Islamic as they are in the West? We have every right to live in this country - many of us were born here. Disagreeing with some practises does not mean we have to leave.
Reply

Muslima Islam
09-26-2008, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I joined this forum to learn; by learn I mean to gain an understanding. In that regard I’d like to know why so many of you don’t want to read anything other than austere, pius and ‘on message’ posts? Many of my posts are deleted and I get many negative ‘reputation’ responses to my posts. Non of my post have been offensive, not even those responding to offensive posts yet clearly some of you are offended or at least disturbed by the slightest questioning particularly if that questioning shows the issue being discussed to be absurd or silly.

So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?

I have formed the view that the majority of you here want to live in bubble which contains only that which re-affirms what you believe in and prohibits anything which might cause you doubt; am I correct?

There are few ‘non-believers’ contributing posts here, is that because they’ve come and gone and have they gone because they have been made to feel uncomfortable; is that what you want – to drive away anyone who questions the validity of what you believe (and by that I am not talking about God, I’m talking about questions like whether to pluck or shave, or listen to music or a type of music, or love passionately or not)?
Okay, Thinker...

you may believe or “come to a conclusion” that all the Muslims at LI.I want to live in a bubble. But I for one personally cant stand when people assume, also jump to conclusions. It is not that we (Muslims) don't like being asked questions. Of course people are curious and are going to ask questions when they want to learn more about another religion. But it is the fact hat you ask them in an impolite way that offenses people. You should not go on with arrogance because no one likes that. I totally understand you are just questioning certain things, but you have to realize that people are passionate about their religion.

“So in my search for understanding I would like to know why so many of you feel threatened or disturbed by someone like me?”

(With all do respect) Don't flatter yourself. For many years our religion has been nit picked by many others and have portraiture a negative reputation. So when someone like you comes along its not “Threatening” or “disturbing” its just played out. I hope you change your ways and realize that kindness is the key to getting people to open up to you.
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doorster
09-26-2008, 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
We aren't going to change Islam just to make you happy (especially not over something as simple as a hand shake!!).



Tolerant? You certainly aren't showing that side here.



And now you are wrongly accusing us. Judgemental, much? Who gave you the power of being able to see into the hearts of others?



That is so not true I don't even know what to say. And it certainly doesn't apply to the hand shaking issue - especially since the majority of Muslim scholars have always deemed it to be forbidden.



Judgemental again. Where do you want us to go? To the Muslim lands, where people as un-Islamic as they are in the West? We have every right to live in this country - many of us were born here. Disagreeing with some practises does not mean we have to leave.
Bravo! and jazakillah khair

by the way do you remember him butting into the thread about an Iranian not believing in Islam because some mulah was allegedly insulting him?

and how insulting he was to our dead of Indian wars?

now all he has to do is to play the victim of "unfair" mods who delete his posts, and all the approval seeking creeps crawl out of their hidey holes and start apologising to him.
Reply

Mikayeel
09-26-2008, 10:37 PM
:sl:

Thread closed, I will reopen it after ramadan if the thread opener wants so.
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