Converting

[glo]

I am interested to hear whether a forced or coerced conversion to Islam (basically any conversion which does not come from one's own conviction and desire) be valid at all in the eyes of God? Or whether it would be meaningless? :?

Peace

[anatolian]

I think that would be meaningless.The intention is the number one condition to be acceptable in Islam.

[_ALI_]

Salam

I am interested to hear whether a forced or coerced conversion to Islam (basically any conversion which does not come from one's own conviction and desire) be valid at all in the eyes of God? Or whether it would be meaningless?

Peace

Islam has a very clear stance on forced conversion. Allah says in the Quran
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَى لَا انْفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ ﴿2:256﴾
(2:256) There is no compulsion and coercion in regard to religion. The right thing has been made distinct from the wrong thing: now whoever rejects taghut and believes in Allah has taken a firm support that never gives way.
I will also quote the explanation of this verse by Moulana Maududi to clear things up
Din here signifies the belief about God embodied in the above 'Verse of the Throne' and the entire system of life which rests upon it. The verse means that the system of Islam, embracing belief, morals and practical conduct cannot be imposed by compulsion. These are not things to which people can be yoked forcibly.
SOURCE: www.tafheem.net
Another prominent scholar Ibn Kathir who wrote one of the most famous and oldest explanation of the Quran says
There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''
SOURCE:http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=6832
If you also view the history of Islam, a prominent scholar and an ex-Nun Karen Armstrong asserts that after Muhammad's death, nobody in the Islamic empire was forced to accept the Islamic faith.
Hope I helped
Peace
Armstrong, A History of God: from Abraham to the Present: the 4000-year Quest for God, 1993, p. 185.

[islamirama]

Such an act would be meaningless. The belief has to come from the heart and not something you can impose on others. Muslims job is to convey the message and not convert people, it is Allah who guides whom He pleases. Our job is to convey the message of Islam only.

So the whole myth of conversion by the sword is farce as you can see, Muslims didn't go around cutting heads of like crusaders went around burning crosses on the chest of those who didn't convert, nor do Muslims go around taking advantage of poor and helpless people forcing them to convert for food or any help like Evangelical Christians do in Africa and other 3rd world countries, nor do we have any "convert quota" to meet and boast about like these Evangelical fanatics.

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[coddles76]

I am interested to hear whether a forced or coerced conversion to Islam (basically any conversion which does not come from one's own conviction and desire) be valid at all in the eyes of God? Or whether it would be meaningless? :?

Peace

Thanks for the question Glo But I don't understand how you could force someone to revert to Islam?
Islam is submitting to will of Allah SWT, our creator so I don't think you could force someone to fulfill there duties towards there creator. Simple saying "There is no other God but Allah" is not enough. You must submit yourself and fulfill your duties. I'm not sure how you would force someone to do that.

[glo]

Thank you for your replies. I had forgotten that I has asked the question! :D

But I don't understand how you could force someone to revert to Islam?

I don't think it is difficult to force somebody to follow a certain religion at all.
If not my physical force, then by coercion and persuasion, by excluding people if they don't comply, or simply by not allowing people to explore other ways of life.
People may convert to (any) religion to benefit socially, to be accepted into society, to be allowed to marry somebody they love ...

So I think there are many reasons why people may convert, which are not necessarily based on love and dedication to God ...

Islam is submitting to will of Allah SWT, our creator so I don't think you could force someone to fulfill there duties towards there creator. Simple saying "There is no other God but Allah" is not enough. You must submit yourself and fulfill your duties. I'm not sure how you would force someone to do that.

I understand this (and the comments made by the other posters).
However, it is possible to follow all necessary religious rules to fit in with people around you and gain their acceptance and respect, rather than out of submission to God.

I suppose none of us can tell how sincere any of our fellow believers are - not even by observing how much they adhere to religious rulings.
I guess God alone knows!

I guess my question really is this:
If somebody followed Islam for all the wrong reasons (such as the examples given above); and not as a sign of submission and dedication to Allah ... would his/her actions (which are still right and good Islamically, even if the intention isn't) still count in his favour on the Day of Judgement? Or would they be entirely meaningless?

[Ar-RaYYan]

I guess my question really is this:
If somebody followed Islam for all the wrong reasons (such as the examples given above); and not as a sign of submission and dedication to Allah ... would his/her actions (which are still right and good Islamically, even if the intention isn't) still count in his favour on the Day of Judgement? Or would they be entirely meaningless? [/QUOTE]

Greeting Glo :)
i have this hadith that might help answering your question.

Its narrated on the authority of Umar ibn al-khattab who said: I heard the Messenger of God say:
"All actions are judged by motives, and each person will be rewarded according to their intention. Thus, he whose migration was to God and His messenger, his migration is to God and His messenger; but he whose migration was for some wordly thing he might gain, or for a wife he might marry, his migration is to that for which he migrated" ( Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

The intention(niyaa) is very important in Islam and as the above hadith says each person will be rewarded according to their intention. No, i dont think a person with the wrong intention will be rewarded in the day of judgement as they are defined as hypercrites.The Qu'ran talks a lot about the hypercrites and their punishments in the day of judgement.
As you said before only God will know how sincere a believer is :)

[julie sarri]

Well first for example if a person converted becouse of a loved one then this would not be from the heart to be a true Muslim you have to love Allah swt from the heart so if you are just going threw the motions then this is not right Allah swt tells us in the Quran that surah al-ma'um verse 4,5,6

4]so,woe to those performers of prayer
5]those who delay their their prayers
6]those who do good deeds only to be seen of men

there are people who practice there religion just to be seen as a good person or so people like them and this goes on in all religions

so being sincere is important
In Islam we do things for the sake of Allah swt and he rewards us for this to do something for the sake of some one else i.e convert to islam without ture belief i cant see how there would be any benefit in it for that person

Allah swt guides and Allah swt knows best

[glo]

Thank you for your replies, all.
It's much appreciated! :)

[Ali.]

If somebody followed Islam for all the wrong reasons (such as the examples given above); and not as a sign of submission and dedication to Allah ... would his/her actions (which are still right and good Islamically, even if the intention isn't) still count in his favour on the Day of Judgement? Or would they be entirely meaningless?

In truth, Allah [swt] only knows that. But have a look:

Allah will not call you to account for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will call you to account for that which your hearts have earned. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Forbearing.
{2:225}

[------]

:salamext:

In response to the first post, meaningless.

[Hasan Ali]

i think he/she wont get converted in taht way

[جوري]

I don't think it is difficult to force somebody to follow a certain religion at all.
If not my physical force, then by coercion and persuasion,

Coercion by persuasion is more an evangelist style.. we are not familiar with it. For instance, missionaries in Africa passing out bikes to Muslim and Hindu children to get them to become christian..

what do you personally think of that?

And what do you suppose a Muslim can bribe a Non-Muslim with to get them to convert, at a time when the term terrorist is almost synonymous with Muslim-- I might personally want to try those suggestions!

thanks

[Umar001]

Thought I do not know the validity on the day of Judgement, I do have to say that sometimes when people join Islam for the wrong reons they end up wanting to follow it. Not that is happens to all, but it is a possibility I have seen.

[glo]

Coercion by invasion is more an evangalist style.. we are not familiar with it. For instance, missionaries in Africa passing out bikes to Muslim and Hindu children to get them to become christian..

what do you personally think of that?

I personally think that would be very bad practice indeed.

I wonder why you are so defensive, Skye?
I am neither seeking religious debate here, nor am I accusing Islam of using deliberate force and coercion to convert people ...
Instead I am seeking knowledge about Islam.
My question was merely whether people who convert for the 'wrong reasons' (i.e. not out of true belief and love for Allah) will be rewarded by Allah for their conversion or not?

Nobody else has read my question is the light that you seem to have. Why is that?
Thank you to all who answered my question with patience and knowledge. :)

And what do you suppose a Muslim can bribe a Non-Muslim with to get them to convert, at a time when the term terrorist is almost synonymous with Muslim-- I might personally want to try it!

thanks

I also think this kind of post would be better placed in the Comparative Religions section and has no place in 'Discover Islam' ... :X
Perhaps the mods can made any amendments to our posts, as they see fit.

salaam

[kwolney01]

You shouldn't force someone to convert. The best thing to do is talk to them about Islam and inform them. Open the door for them its their choice if they want to walk through it. If someone was forced to convert it wouldn't be valid, because its not the persons intention to convert. Its all about the persons intentions, that goes for everything not just converting.

[جوري]

I personally think that would be very bad practice indeed.

I am glad you agree

I wonder why you are so defensive, Skye?

I am not defensive at all, it is a legitimate question which you've posed, but I think it misdirected in fact given that the term missionaries is a term almost exclusively synonymous with Christian evangelists not Muslims!

I am neither seeking religious debate here, nor am I accusing Islam of using deliberate force and coercion to convert people ...

Instead I am seeking knowledge about Islam.

I too seeking knowledge about Christianity of which you are a representative!

My question was merely whether people who convert for the 'wrong reasons' (i.e. not out of true belief and love for Allah) will be rewarded by Allah for their conversion or not?

No one can really offer you an answer to that Q, given that none of us here are Allah or can speak of his judgement!

Nobody else has read my question is the light that you seem to have. Why is that?

people aren't universally the same.. we are not al baked in the same oven.. are we allowed to think differently do you think? would that be ok with you?

Thank you to all who answered my question with patience and knowledge. :)

I also think this kind of post would be better placed in the Comparative Religions section and has no place in 'Discover Islam' ... :X
Perhaps the mods can made any amendments to our posts, as they see fit.

salaam

I don't think anything needs amending, you asked, we asked a q of the exact same nature.. makes me wonder, who truly holds the defensive stance here?

cheers

[Uthman]

glo my heart skipped a beat. I thought you were going to convert when I read the thread title. :D

[malayloveislam]

Salaam,

We are forbidden to force people into Islam, it has been mentioned in Holy Quran.

As the matter, Allah the Almighty actually do not have any necessity on us but we are who depend on Him, we live on His universe, it is the matter of appreciating and being gracious to the Creator who are responsible in granting us the experience to live on this impermanent world to learn. So, if we do not follow this path of nature (Islam), He doesn't lose anything. In opposite, we are those who will be the losers ;D

[alcurad]

^that would be welcome news.

It doesn't matter if they entered for the 'wrong reasons', whatever you define these to be.
Rather what they did after wards.
but this is quite basic, I would expect you to know it.perhaps there is something more you want to say?

[Haron♥Islam]

Salam brother, I'm just wondering you're a christian right?

[Grace Seeker]

I am not defensive at all, it is a legitimate question which you've posed, but I think it misdirected in fact given that the term missionaries is a term almost exclusively synonymous with Christian evangelists not Muslims!

I find it interesting that you think that glo's question is misdirected because the term missionaries is a term that you preceive as being linked with Christianity. But I can't see what that has to do with glo's question. Below are all of glo's posts in this thread, and I don't find that term used once, at least not by her.

I am interested to hear whether a forced or coerced conversion to Islam (basically any conversion which does not come from one's own conviction and desire) be valid at all in the eyes of God? Or whether it would be meaningless? :?

Peace

Thank you for your replies. I had forgotten that I has asked the question! :D


I don't think it is difficult to force somebody to follow a certain religion at all.
If not my physical force, then by coercion and persuasion, by excluding people if they don't comply, or simply by not allowing people to explore other ways of life.
People may convert to (any) religion to benefit socially, to be accepted into society, to be allowed to marry somebody they love ...

So I think there are many reasons why people may convert, which are not necessarily based on love and dedication to God ...


I understand this (and the comments made by the other posters).
However, it is possible to follow all necessary religious rules to fit in with people around you and gain their acceptance and respect, rather than out of submission to God.

I suppose none of us can tell how sincere any of our fellow believers are - not even by observing how much they adhere to religious rulings.
I guess God alone knows!

I guess my question really is this:
If somebody followed Islam for all the wrong reasons (such as the examples given above); and not as a sign of submission and dedication to Allah ... would his/her actions (which are still right and good Islamically, even if the intention isn't) still count in his favour on the Day of Judgement? Or would they be entirely meaningless?

Thank you for your replies, all.
It's much appreciated! :)

I personally think that would be very bad practice indeed.

I wonder why you are so defensive, Skye?
I am neither seeking religious debate here, nor am I accusing Islam of using deliberate force and coercion to convert people ...
Instead I am seeking knowledge about Islam.
My question was merely whether people who convert for the 'wrong reasons' (i.e. not out of true belief and love for Allah) will be rewarded by Allah for their conversion or not?

Nobody else has read my question is the light that you seem to have. Why is that?
Thank you to all who answered my question with patience and knowledge. :)


I also think this kind of post would be better placed in the Comparative Religions section and has no place in 'Discover Islam' ... :X
Perhaps the mods can made any amendments to our posts, as they see fit.

salaam

Does anyone else see something I don't see? I see a simple question, one that is not connected with missionary efforts of any kind by any group. Indeed the initial question does not seem to be about Islamic practices, but a search for better understanding of Islamic perceptions regarding how Allah would view things.

Only one person in this thread even bothered to mention missionaries:

Coercion by persuasion is more an evangelist style.. we are not familiar with it. For instance, missionaries in Africa passing out bikes to Muslim and Hindu children to get them to become christian.

Can you explain how that comment is even relevant to this thread since it doesn't address glo's question nor is an issue raised by any other poster except yourself? Please, tell glo that HER question is misdirected, when it is YOUR OWN comment that you are actually responding to.