Fifteen Turkish soldiers killed in clashes with PKK

[Güven]

Fifteen Turkish soldiers killed in clashes with PKK



By Ibon Villelabeitia

ANKARA (Reuters) - Fifteen Turkish soldiers were killed and 20 were wounded in clashes with Kurdish separatist PKK rebels in southeast Turkey on Friday, Turkish officials said, in one of the deadliest attacks on the military this year.

At least 23 members of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) were also killed after rebels based in northern Iraq fired heavy weapons at a military outpost in the Semdinli region bordering Iraq and Iran, the military said.

The attack is likely to put pressure on Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan to strike back at the PKK. It also threatens to strain ties between Iraq and Turkey, which has accused Baghdad of not doing enough to crush PKK rebels.

NATO-member Turkey has attacked PKK bases in northern Iraq several times in the past 12 months but has confined itself to shelling and air strikes since a land offensive in February.

The General Staff said two Turkish soldiers were missing and that a rescue operation was under way. It said "most of our losses were caused by heavy weapon fire from the north of Iraq."

A Reuters correspondent on the Turkish side of the border saw Turkish attack helicopters and F-16 fighter jets flying over the area on Saturday. Special forces were being deployed.

Attacks by PKK rebels based in Iraq are a major irritant in relations between Ankara and Baghdad. Washington and the European Union are concerned that prolonged Turkish military operations inside Iraq could further destabilise Iraq.

Turkey's Foreign Ministry urged Baghdad to "take necessary precautions and prevent the repetition of such attacks."

Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh condemned the PKK attack but urged Ankara to act with "wisdom and self-restraint."

NATO, the EU and the U.S. embassy in Ankara condemned the PKK attack.

PM CHAIRS SECURITY MEETING

Erdogan cut short an official visit to Turkmenistan on Saturday to chair an emergency security meeting in Ankara.

Turkish military and civilian leaders pledged in the meeting to take strong actions against the PKK and said they had considered "all methods and precautions" to do so.

"The struggle against terrorism will continue with increased determination," a statement issued after the meeting said.

Parliament this month is likely to pass a government request to extend a mandate to launch military operations against the PKK in Iraq as needed. The current mandate expires on October 17.

Turkey blames the PKK, considered a terrorist organisation by the United States and the EU, for the deaths of more than 40,000 people since it launched its campaign for an ethnic Kurdish homeland in southeast Turkey in 1984.

Washington is sharing vital intelligence with Turkey on PKK movements in Iraq. The group has been weakened in recent years and the conflict has died down since its heyday in the 1990s.#

Friday's attack is the first serious challenge for Turkey's new military chief, General Ilker Basbug, who took over NATO's second-largest army in August.

Basbug has said that, while military operations against the PKK will continue, socio-economic measures are needed to bring peace to the impoverished southeast.

President Abdullah Gul hinted at a possible intelligence failure. The outpost has been attacked several times.

"We are closely investigating how this last heinous attack was made, who were the collaborators, and who facilitated this attack?" Gul said in a statement.

Erdogan has announced plans to invest up to $12 billion in southeast Turkey to improve living standards and drain support for the PKK.

The ruling AK Party hopes to wrest control of key cities in the southeast from a pro-Kurdish political party in municipal elections next March. Turkey is home to around 12 million Kurds, a sixth of the total population.

(Additional reporting by Aws Qusay in Baghdad; Editing by Dominic Evans)

Source: 1 2

[sevgi]

I dont know why they just wont put an end to this.

[north_malaysian]

are both Turkish government and PKK open for a dialogue?

[Güven]

I dont know why they just wont put an end to this.

I dont know either , it looks like its getting worser and worser..

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[sevgi]

are both Turkish government and PKK open for a dialogue?

i dont know much and would never pretend to know more than i do..

but from what i know, the Turkish govt has always been open to dialogue..but what the PKK want cannot be settled through dialogue. They have never been open to any cooperation..nor will they ever. they are a terrorist organisation...and will stop at nothing but getting what they want.

[north_malaysian]

i dont know much and would never pretend to know more than i do..

but from what i know, the Turkish govt has always been open to dialogue..but what the PKK want cannot be settled through dialogue. They have never been open to any cooperation..nor will they ever. they are a terrorist organisation...and will stop at nothing but getting what they want.

In the last election, in some provinces the Kurds voted for AK party right? It seems that not all Kurds support PKK..

[sevgi]

In the last election, in some provinces the Kurds voted for AK party right? It seems that not all Kurds support PKK..

i dnt know:)

[The Khan]

In the last election, in some provinces the Kurds voted for AK party right? It seems that not all Kurds support PKK..

Most support PKK though. A slight majority of Turks are sick of the anti-Islamic policies of the state. The AK party has slowly been trying to end these policies, with stiff resistance from the army and judiciary. The people want and end to these policies, but the "secular" elite are vehemently against it.

I curse Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

I am against the PKK's war. Islam has no place for nationalism. However, anyone who fights against the Turkish government, peacefully or not, to end these anti-Islamic policies, I shall praise.

[sevgi]

Most support PKK though. A slight majority of Turks are sick of the anti-Islamic policies of the state. The AK party has slowly been trying to end these policies, with stiff resistance from the army and judiciary. The people want and end to these policies, but the "secular" elite are vehemently against it.

I curse Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

I am against the PKK's war. Islam has no place for nationalism. However, anyone who fights against the Turkish government, peacefully or not, to end these anti-Islamic policies, I shall praise.

well i said i "didnt know" but actually im not totally ignorant.

i just have to rebutt what i have understood as your take on the motives of the PKK.

the PKK are not attacking turkey coz of anti-islamic tendencies. they want land. they want what they believe is theirs. they are nationalist thugs with no nation..so to speak.

its the same with the armenians.

there is no point in cursing ataturk. he is a man in the past and Allah will deal with him. lets always remember that Allah uses everyone for a purpose and if Ataturk was meant to be a secularist *insertswearwordhere* then Allah obviously had plans.

peace.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Give them land! Like Castro, I support all those that seek their own homeland! KHALISTAN FOR SIKHS!

[Güven]

^is this how you demand land ??

Edit: Im talking without Ilm!

InshaAllah this will stop one day...

[The Khan]

Give them land! Like Castro, I support all those that seek their own homeland! KHALISTAN FOR SIKHS!

Throughout my life, I have never come across a Sikh who still demands an independent Khalistan. You're the first. Just curious, how many people do you know in average who still demand a separate Khalistan?

On the other hand, I've met many Hindus who want to nuke Pakistan for no reason.

[bewildred]

.......and with every tragic event like this, Turkey gets farther and farther from Europe....

[yasin ibn Ahmad]

are both Turkish government and PKK open for a dialogue?

Turkish gov dont have a dialogue with a terrorist group.Any gov dont do it.

[KAding]

.......and with every tragic event like this, Turkey gets farther and farther from Europe....

How so? I don't see the relation between Turkey as a European-oriented country and the PKK?

[north_malaysian]

its also rumoured that there are also turks who are a part of pkk (Not sure) , soo there is some real strange things goin on....

ok..that's weird.

[north_malaysian]

Turkish gov dont have a dialogue with a terrorist group.Any gov dont do it.

Our government did it with Communists rebels (also terrorists as they bombed our national monument, trains etc) in the 80s. Since then there are no terrorism activities done by the Communists.

[yigiter187]

Most support PKK though. A slight majority of Turks are sick of the anti-Islamic policies of the state. The AK party has slowly been trying to end these policies, with stiff resistance from the army and judiciary. The people want and end to these policies, but the "secular" elite are vehemently against it.

I curse Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

I am against the PKK's war. Islam has no place for nationalism. However, anyone who fights against the Turkish government, peacefully or not, to end these anti-Islamic policies, I shall praise.

You are writing without knowledge.PKK wants land to found a so-called kurdistan.They kill for kurdistan but they kill mostly kurds.What a dilemma!
If eu an usa hadnt funded Pkk,it had ended years and years ago.In the areas where kurds live,kurds pay no tax,no bill for electiricity,no bill for water etc etc...in addition to this they want land.
And ı expect an apologise from you for saying " ı shall praise ....""""..our ancestor praised,spreaded islam through europa,asia,afrca,they fought for islam and leaded islam for about 500 year.You cannot speak like this.

suppose that my country is anti-islamic then what does your country do for islam?

[The Khan]

That's exactly what I said. PKK is fighting for land, ie, nationalism. I don't support them. If there was an outfit in Turkey fighting to end the anti-Islamic policies, that outfit I would support.

I apologise as you misunderstood my post. I am very much against the PKK.

India has two major parties, the Congress and the BJP. The Congress are very pro-Muslim, and the BJP have killed thousands of Muslims to gain power. The Congress has done a lot for Muslims.

I just don't like the founder of your country's so called "secularism". I don't like the fact that your judiciary attempted to ban the AK party for lifting the anti-hijab university law. I don't like that fact that your military threatened to state a coup d' etat if the AK party continue to end these anti-Islamic policies.

[doorster]

suppose that my country is anti-Islamic then what does your country do for Islam?

if you read all his posts you'll find that his idea of an ideal Muslim country is Iran

what does your country do for Islam?

his country is so "good" for Islam that it tried to Destroy Pakistan a number of times and only stopped invading after Pakistan acquired nuclear technology. Now they have blocked and diverted waters that would have flowed in to Pakistani rivers in effort to turn it in to a desert land.

oh yes, they gave Muslims Gujarat and Kashmir too.

I curse Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

and I curse the lahnatullah Khomieni, so there!

if there was no Atatürk, there would be no Turkey, Arab traitors would have sold it in exchange for some Mayfair *****house

if it were not for Turks and pre-lahnatullah era Iranians, there would be NO Pakistan today either (your country/Congress Party and Afghans would have carved it up like they are trying now and seem to be succeeding)

[yigiter187]

I mean " does your countries do something to spread the name of Mohammed and Allah to all over the world ?"

my ancestors did this for about 500 years..and still there are hundreds of turkish schools all over the world to spread islam..and ı thing there is one of them in india..to spread islam to indians :)

Producing nuclear weapons like iran does nothing for islamic movement,but founding schools like turkey around the world does much for islam..

[The Khan]

if you read all his posts you'll find that his idea of an ideal Muslim country is Iran
his country is so "good" for Islam that it tried to Destroy Pakistan a number of times and only stopped invading after Pakistan acquired nuclear technology. Now they have blocked and diverted waters that would have flowed in to Pakistani rivers in effort to turn it in to a desert land.

oh yes, they gave Muslims Gujarat and Kashmir too.
and I curse the lahnatullah Khomieni, so there!

if there was no Atatürk, there would be no Turkey, Arab traitors would have sold it in exchange for some Mayfair *****house

if it were not for Turks and pre-lahnatullah era Iranians, there would be NO Pakistan today either (your country/Congress Party and Afghans would have carved it up like they are trying now and seem to be succeeding)

I'm not a big fan of the Congress either. I vote for the All India Majlis Ittehadul Muslimeen. I just said that their domestic (not foreign) policies are very pro-Muslim, for votes.

I mean " does your countries do something to spread the name of Mohammed and Allah to all over the world ?"

my ancestors did this for about 500 years..and still there are hundreds of turkish schools all over the world to spread islam..and ı thing there is one of them in india..to spread islam to indians

Producing nuclear weapons like iran does nothing for islamic movement,but founding schools like turkey around the world does much for islam..

My country is a secular nation, with an 80% Hindu population, 15% Muslim population. I'll be ****ed if the central party recruits its own tablighi jamaat members and sends them abroad :D

Yes, I know, I'm a big fan of the Ottoman caliphate. I just don't like the anti-Islamic system controlled by the anti-Islamic Kemalist elite that exists.

Iran is not making nuclear weapons. They need nuclear energy for civillian purposes. I smell Shiaphobia.

Anyway, why this talk on "my nation is greater than yours"? The Qur'an absolutely forbids nationalism.

[nocturnal]

I concur with Khan about the nature of the Turkish system and the desperately needed reform which is being impeded unabashed by the Kemalists who have no respect for the democratic will of the people. It is absolutely scandalous to ban girls from attending university if they choose to wear a Hijab.

These deranged zealots are mornoic enough not discern that the very system they are trying to subvert is already inherently secular, and reforming the law to allow female students to wear a Hijab will probably lend more credence to Turkey as a pluralistic, secular society making real headway towards EU membership and integration rather than an outmoded, parochial country on the fringes of Europe in every aspect.

[anatolian]

Other things are disscused more than PKK attacks..Güven , that means it is our problem and we must deal with it by our style..

[Güven]

Other things are disscused more than PKK attacks..Güven , that means it is our problem and we must deal with it by our style..

uhmm..What do you mean ?:?

:w:

[yigiter187]

pkk killed 40.000 people so far...
and people who support pkk, take the sin of killing 40.000 people according to islam..muslims should think many many times before supporting pkk...they killed innocent people..they wanted land,they wanted soil from babies..they killed even them..::(

[Amadeus85]

Is the Bektashi sect still popular in Turkey?

[doorster]

^ is google broken?

[Fishman]

:sl: Maybe Turkey should invade East Turkestan in China. That would solve many problems at once! 1. The struggles of Uighurs will be recognised worldwide 2. Turkey will reclaim enough land in the steppes to allow Kurdistan to seceed 3. All the Kurdistan extremists who went to fight China will be nuked 4. America will love Turkey for standing up against their rival 5. The Chinese government will have to get down from its high horse and accept that it is not invincible 6. Other Muslim countries will forget about the Hijab ban or the Kemalists and love Turkey for liberating their oppressed brothers 7. Turkey will have a huge super-empire in Central Asia that can take good care of the Aral Sea 8. China will be relieved of a rebellious desert province that was hard to maintain 9. Westerners will have a new Alexander the Great to write poems about, they over-did the last one 10. Nobody will have to remember all those crazy names for the countries in central Asia, especially the almost unprouncable, unspellable one with loads of 'Y's and 'Z's in it!Sorry for the ridiculous format, my computer doesn't accept ActiveX controls anymore!

[doorster]

!Sorry for the ridiculous format, my computer doesn't accept ActiveX controls anymore!

I'll format it for you

:sl:
Maybe Turkey should invade East Turkestan in China. That would solve many problems at once!

1. The struggles of Uighurs will be recognised worldwide
2. Turkey will reclaim enough land in the steppes to allow Kurdistan to seceed
3. All the Kurdistan extremists who went to fight China will be nuked
4. America will love Turkey for standing up against their rival
5. The Chinese government will have to get down from its high horse and accept that it is not invincible
6. Other Muslim countries will forget about the Hijab ban or the Kemalists and love Turkey for liberating their oppressed brothers
7. Turkey will have a huge super-empire in Central Asia that can take good care of the Aral Sea
8. China will be relieved of a rebellious desert province that was hard to maintain
9. Westerners will have a new Alexander the Great to write poems about, they over-did the last one
10. Nobody will have to remember all those crazy names for the countries in central Asia, especially the almost unprouncable, unspellable one with loads of 'Y's and 'Z's in it

[north_malaysian]

10. Nobody will have to remember all those crazy names for the countries in central Asia, especially the almost unprouncable, unspellable one with loads of 'Y's and 'Z's in it!

do you mean like KYRGYZSTAN? :D

How about BASHKORTOSTAN (an autonomous republic in Russian Federation)?

[anatolian]

uhmm..What do you mean ?:?

:w:

People don't care it as much as you expect.

[Güven]

People don't care it as much as you expect.

Im realy sorry brother but i cant follow you maybe because im a little slow

siz Türkmusunuz? Yanlis birsey mi dedim?:-[

:w:

[anatolian]

Hayır yanlış bir şey demedin.Millet verdiğin haberi fazla önemsemedi demek istiyorum.

[Güven]

ha simdi anladim , evet öyle ne yapalim onlar Türk degil ,
bizi anlamazlar , onlara türkiye hakkinda daha cok bilgi vermeliyiz , benim türkiye hakkinda cok bilgim yok , avrupada oturuyom diye..
bu foruma daha cok bilgili Türk lazim aslinda :)

:w:

[doorster]

:sl:
what language are you using? or are you mis-spelling? my Turkish-English translator is failing to translate.

:w:

[Güven]

:sl:
oh sorry bro and yes its turkish , i tought it was may be easier to understand what he meant :-[

and i dont have a turkish keyboard so thats why the translator is mis spelling..
:w:

[doorster]

jazakAllah Khair wa salam alaikum

[shev]

well there are a lot of politicals situations that we cannot understand. The best time for east part of Turkey espacialy for Diyarbakır is when Gaffar Okan was governor of there. Then they killed him.. and who did it ,Turks in Ergenekon did it.
and nowadays as you know there is a very important lawsuit and what a fortuity that these actions happens at same time.. PKK also doesn't want kurts to be happy.. because PKK afraids that when they become happy. They'll stop supporting them...... For example some administrative leader ,who are close to pkk, don't do anything and they say 'see turkish government does't let us to do anything, they don't like you... They don't support here'

but also turkish government had very wrong politicals on that part in past. and now it can't be solved very easly... some people who see themself as patriotic killed a lot of innocent kurts.... and that caused PKK to be strong in those times..

[north_malaysian]

May God give happiness to both Turks and Kurds... Amin

Is is true that the Turks are Hanafites and the Kurds are Shafiites?

[anatolian]

well there are a lot of politicals situations that we cannot understand. ...

Salam sis.Are you a turkish kurd?

[anatolian]

May God give happiness to both Turks and Kurds... Amin

Is is true that the Turks are Hanafites and the Kurds are Shafiites?

Mostly yes.... Amin

[anatolian]

:sl:
what language are you using? or are you mis-spelling? my Turkish-English translator is failing to translate.

:w:

I would recommend you not to rely on those kind of programs.:)

[anatolian]

:sl:
what language are you using? or are you mis-spelling? my Turkish-English translator is failing to translate.

:w:

No I used a proper Turkish.

[Güven]

no its my mistake , i dont have a turkish keyboard :D

:w:

[shev]

Salam sis.Are you a turkish kurd?

aslm I am a kurd.. Why did u ask. is there anything wrong according to u?

[shev]

May God give happiness to both Turks and Kurds... Amin

Is is true that the Turks are Hanafites and the Kurds are Shafiites?

Amin. both are muslim. being hanafites and shafites have never been a problem elh. but that nationalism has been problem.

[Güven]

aslm I am a kurd.. Why did u ask. is there anything wrong according to u?

:sl:

I dont think he means wrong sis :)

Amin. both are muslim. being hanafites and shafites have never been a problem elh. but that nationalism has been problem.

Amiin
and yes i agree nationalism is a big problem , when I was in turkey last summer , i was in a city(Malatya) and MashaAllah it was soo beautiful to see that there were ALOTS of practising muslims there and they had NO problem at all with kurd-turk thing, the masjids were always full, it was beautiful mashaAllah.

:w:

[The Khan]

Amin. both are muslim. being hanafites and shafites have never been a problem elh. but that nationalism has been problem.

Actually sis, there used to be a lot of factional strife between hanafis and shafis during the early medieval age, to such an extent that the Il-Khanate ruler Öljaitü converted to the Shi'a ithna ashari school, alienated by the factional strife. Most of modern Turkey was controlled by the Il-Khanate, which existed between 1256-1353.

[Al-Zaara]

^ You read too much Wikipedia.

[shev]

Actually sis, there used to be a lot of factional strife between hanafis and shafis during the early medieval age, to such an extent that the Il-Khanate ruler Öljaitü converted to the Shi'a ithna ashari school, alienated by the factional strife.

Yes there has been problems with shi's.
but here in turkey tehere hasn't been problem with hanafis and shafis
But also once there has been big problems with shis in turkey..

[Güven]

she is talking about now bro , not the medieval age and NO there is NO problem at all with hanafi"s and shafii"s in turkey.

and btw What tha heck does THAT have to do with it:-\

:w:

[Al-Zaara]

Is is true that the Turks are Hanafites and the Kurds are Shafiites?

It simply depends, I guess mostly Kurds are Shafis, 'cause they were influenced by Iran. It doesn't really matter, for the Shafi and Hanafi madhhabs have been the major madhhabs in Turkey for a very very long time.

[The Khan]

^ You read too much Wikipedia.

Actually sis, I try to avoid wikipedia as much as possible, unless I can't find info elsewhere. Project Gutenberg ftw.

she is talking about now bro , not the medieval age and NO there is NO problem at all with hanafi"s and shafii"s in turkey.

and btw What tha heck does THAT have to do with it:-\

:w:

Old scars remain forever. I just wanted to point out that sunnis also used to be at each others throats in the past. Sectarian (I consider the 4 schools as different sects... many differences), ethnic, and linguistic differences all play a role in creating rebellions.

[Güven]

Old scars remain forever. I just wanted to point out that sunnis also used to be at each others throats in the past. Sectarian (I consider the 4 schools as different sects... many differences), ethnic, and linguistic differences all play a role in creating rebellions.

well thats a forgotten old scar then and thats YOU cause we dont see eachother as different sects, we see eachother as muslims.
when i went to turkey I didnt even notice the differences...


:w:

[The Khan]

You know best akhee. :D

:w:

[Güven]

no Allah(swt) knows best ! :D

:w:

[The Khan]

no Allah(swt) knows best ! :D

:w:

Quoted For Truth! :D

:w:

[anatolian]

aslm I am a kurd.. Why did u ask. is there anything wrong according to u?

No surely.It just drew my attention you have pointed out the true things about the metter without being influenced by the propoganda...Pls don't take this as an underestimation :)

[sevgi]

ha simdi anladim , evet öyle ne yapalim onlar Türk degil ,
bizi anlamazlar , onlara türkiye hakkinda daha cok bilgi vermeliyiz , benim türkiye hakkinda cok bilgim yok , avrupada oturuyom diye..
bu foruma daha cok bilgili Türk lazim aslinda :)

:w:

lol....sorry but...lol....

bu forum bilgili turkleri napsin? lol

"hersey vatan icin!! forumlarada vatanim icin girerim, Avrupa birligine de!"

turkish patriots are funny.

[Güven]

lol....sorry but...lol....

bu forum bilgili turkleri napsin? lol

"hersey vatan icin!! forumlarada vatanim icin girerim, Avrupa birligine de!"

turkish patriots are funny.

Im not talking about Turkish patriots!
Im talking about Turks who have knowledge about Turkey and Islam,
so that they can help us understand whats going on in turkey.
Cause who knows better after Allah than someone who actually lives there?

[sevgi]

Im not talking about Turkish patriots!
Im talking about Turks who have knowledge about Turkey and Islam,
so that they can help us understand whats going on in turkey.
Cause who knows better after Allah than someone who actually lives there?

i know your not talking about patriots guven..

im calling you and the other brother you were talking to patriots. Even on an islamic forum you wish to better explain Turkey's disposition. you wish that more knowledgable turks would come along and teach these people a thing or two so that they may better sympathise with us.

guess what...the turkey in ur heads is not the turkey that exists in reality. im sorry.

[anatolian]

huh? how did you understand those things from my post?

[Güven]

yeah im confused too ....I see patriots ...but WHERE did i say ANYTHING about patriots or even mentioned it , or even thought about it :?
Im FULLY against patriotism/Nationalism.

Uhmmm.....Did i say something wrong ....again without knowing it ? :-[

:w:

[sevgi]

salaams,

well if you read all the turkish posts which are conveniently in turkish, u will see that they may easily be interpreted in the way i not so willingly have. i didnt try to understand what i have...trust me..i have better things to do.

the brother (anatolia) stated that this "millet" dont care about the situation in turkey as much as you EXPECT them to...beklentilerimiz var...we expect this millet to show us more interest...more attention...and worry about us as much or close to how much we care about the situations...and as a result, we pray that more knowledgable turks come along....

to me that screams patriotism...direct or indirect..it doesnt matter. but i know that in your case guven, it is indirect....we turks seem to have this mentality built into us...we are all nationalist in some way...im not saying anything wrong..i just find it funny...

peace...i swear...:)

w/s

[Güven]

:salamext:

ok let me make things clear,
he said:

Hayır yanlış bir şey demedin.Millet verdiğin haberi fazla önemsemedi demek istiyorum.

He was clearly sayin that this "millet" didnt take this ARTICLE serious ,So i said/MEANT they are no turks and maybe because they dont know the situation in turkey thats why they dont take it serious and I as an european turk have NO knowledge about whats goin on in turkey , so i said/MEANT MAYBE we need more turks who can explain US ( including me) more things whats going on in Turkey so that we can get a view what tha hell is goin on in there lol

I dont care about turkish patriotism or nationalism orwhatever

...I only care for Islam.

oke enough :D

Wasallam

[nocturnal]

By PKK nationalism, he i think means it in the literal sense "Asabiyah", which the prophet (pbuh), ardently averred against. It is haram for anyone to call for it, fight for it, or die for it.