Orthodox Jewish 'Modesty Patrols' Put Israelis on Edge

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

JERUSALEM — In Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, where the rule of law sometimes takes a back seat to the rule of God, zealots are on a campaign to stamp out behavior they consider unchaste.

They hurl stones at women for such "sins" as wearing a red blouse and attack stores selling devices that can access the Internet.

In recent weeks, self-styled "modesty patrols" have been accused of breaking into the apartment of a Jerusalem woman and beating her for allegedly consorting with men. They have torched a store that sells MP4 players, fearing devout Jews would use them to download pornography.

"These breaches of purity and modesty endanger our community," said 38-year-old Elchanan Blau, defending the bearded, black-robed zealots. "If it takes fire to get them to stop, then so be it."

Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are dismayed by the violence, but the enforcers often enjoy quiet approval from rabbis eager to protect their own reputations as guardians of the faith, community members say. And while some welcome anything that keeps secular culture out of their cloistered world, others feel terrorized, knowing that the mere perception of impropriety could ruin their lives.

"There are eyes and ears all over the place, very similar to what you hear about in countries like Iran," says Israeli-American novelist Naomi Ragen, an observant Jew who has chronicled the troubles that confront some women living in the ultra-Orthodox world.

The violence has already deepened the antagonism between the 600,000 haredim, or God-fearing, and the secular majority, which resents having religious rules dictated to them.

Religious vigilantes operate in a society that has granted their community influence well beyond its numbers — partly out of a commitment to revive the great centers of Jewish scholarship destroyed in the Holocaust, but also because the Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics.

Thus public transport is grounded for the Jewish Sabbath each Saturday, and the rabbis control all Jewish marriage and divorce in Israel.

In recent years, however, the haredim have eased up on their long campaign to impose their rules on secular areas, and nowadays many restaurants and suburban shopping centers are open on the Sabbath.

These days, most vigilante attacks take place in the zealots' own neighborhoods.

Israel police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the modesty police are not an organized phenomenon, just rogue enforcers carrying out isolated attacks. But Israel's Justice Ministry used the term "modesty patrols" in an indictment against a man accused of assaulting the Jerusalem woman.

The unidentified, 31-year-old woman had left the ultra-Orthodox fold after getting divorced, according to the indictment filed by the Jerusalem district attorney's office. The indictment said her assailant tried to get her to leave her apartment in a haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem by gagging, beating and threatening to kill her. He was paid $2,000 for the attack, it said.

A 17-year-old who moved to Israel from New York five years ago said she was hospitalized after being attacked with pepper spray by a crowd of men outraged that she was walking down a Jerusalem street with boys.

"They can burn in hell," said the girl, who would identify herself only as Rivka.

She lives in Beit Shemesh, a town outside Jerusalem where the vigilantism has been particularly violent. Zealots there have thrown rocks and spat at women, and set fire to trash bins to protest impiety. Walls of the neighborhood are plastered with signs exhorting women to dress modestly — spelled out as closed-necked, long-sleeved blouses and long skirts.

Source (surprisingly enough): http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432876,00.html

Where's the outrage against these "Jewish Taliban"? Where's the outrage for this "oppression" against the women in Israel because of "modesty standards"? :rollseyes

[Amadeus85]

But You also support similar "modesty patrols" from Saudi Arabia through Pakistan to Malaysia, so whats Your point?

[Sahabiyaat]

taliban all over again....

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

But You also support similar "modesty patrols" from Saudi Arabia through Pakistan to Malaysia, so whats Your point?

Assumptions :rollseyes

Either way, I see women's rights being violated there, yet I don't see the world organizations coming together to stop "Jewish oppression against women", as they did with "Islamic oppression against women". It reeks of hypocrisy.

If you still don't see the point, it's ok, I never expected you to see it anyway.

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[Amadeus85]

Assumptions :rollseyes

Either way, I see women's rights being violated there, yet I don't see the world organizations coming together to stop "Jewish oppression against women", as they did with "Islamic oppression against women". It reeks of hypocrisy.

If you still don't see the point, it's ok, I never expected you to see it anyway.

Its about western double standards, of course I see it here :D.
But You are not the right person to point out our double standards if You never made a thread about "women's rights violated by muslim modesty patrols". :?

[جوري]

Why is he not the right person to point it out?

[Amadeus85]

Why is he not the right person to point it out?

Because he thinks that modesty patrols are ok. Just not in Israel. Or maybe Im wrong.
Anyway, I agree with him that there should be some event made about this situation, as he is right that there are voices condemning similar
"morality squads " in muslim world.
It shows that Israel is slowly going in the direction of religious orthodoxy and intolerance. It is interesting which two powers will winn the struggle, the secularists or orthodox.

[Suomipoika]

Either way, I see women's rights being violated there, yet I don't see the world organizations coming together to stop "Jewish oppression against women", as they did with "Islamic oppression against women". It reeks of hypocrisy.

Not really. The state of Israel doesnt condone this and the so called modesty patrols who resort to violence are treated as criminals. What exactly is there to criticise based on this article when apparently Israel is trying to catch those who have assaulted these women? Show me "world organizations" criticising islamic/muslim country where the state guarantees equal rights to women aswell as possibility to dress/meet/talk to/have sex with however/whomever/whenever they want while trying to jail those who violently attack the women.

The "nuttiness" of hardline religious jews is something that is semi regularly reported in here, I can think of several cases most relating to their unwillingness to compromise in the peace process and fighting against emptying of settlements etc. tho their moral insanity garbage and even attacking others isnt exactly new for me either.

[Suomipoika]

Anyway, I agree with him that there should be some event made about this situation, as he is right that there are voices condemning similar "morality squads " in muslim world.

Problem is these morality squads arent supported/tolerated by the state of Israel. Now I could be wrong, but the criticism that I remember towards some muslim countries comes from the fact that this kind of groups/ideas are there supported/tolerated by the goverment. Like example the lashing of the rape victim in Saudi Arabia was actually a punishment by goverment because she was in a car with non-married man.

[barney]

**Rolls eyes further than someone having an Occular Gyrocrisis.**

According to such people God appears to have some severe problems with normal human relationships.
Never wondering why God, who appeared so active in their book, dosnt step in and defend our eyes from such obcenity as an exposed ankle himself.
Yet another example of misogenistic sexist patriarchal dictatorial sexually repressed old men inflicting physical harm on innocent people. Time it was banned.

[جوري]

Because he thinks that modesty patrols are ok. Just not in Israel. Or maybe Im wrong.

where in his post does he condone modesty patrol? I must have missed it?

Anyway, I agree with him that there should be some event made about this situation, as he is right that there are voices condemning similar
"morality squads " in muslim world.

I think the 'morality squad' is condemned as nauseam.. perhaps it is time for folks to look into their own backyard before pointing the finger?
at least that is what I got out of the thread!

It shows that Israel is slowly going in the direction of religious orthodoxy and intolerance. It is interesting which two powers will winn the struggle, the secularists or orthodox.

Isn't that the whole point of a 'Jewish state' why did you think they imposed their colonial settler state were it not to impose 'orthodoxy' and await their 'Moschaich'?

[جوري]

Not really. The state of Israel doesnt condone this and the so called modesty patrols who resort to violence are treated as criminals. What exactly is there to criticise based on this article when apparently Israel is trying to catch those who have assaulted these women? Show me "world organizations" criticising islamic/muslim country where the state guarantees equal rights to women aswell as possibility to dress/meet/talk to/have sex with however/whomever/whenever they want while trying to jail those who violently attack the women.

The "nuttiness" of hardline religious jews is something that is semi regularly reported in here, I can think of several cases most relating to their unwillingness to compromise in the peace process and fighting against emptying of settlements etc. tho their moral insanity garbage and even attacking others isnt exactly new for me either.

I have always enjoyed your form of savoir faire.. Are you the spokes person for Israel? Have you been there?

I am a Muslim woman, have lived in so-called Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia, and here to tell you, don't speak on my behalf and don't feign to know what it is like to live in those places.. you want to shake your all knowing head, do it with like minds, with pseudo intellect parrots who will agree with you!

cheers

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Skye Ephémérine;1018273]

where in his post does he condone modesty patrol? I must have missed it?

Thats why I said - "maybe Im wrong". I know that there are such squads even in Malaysia, but I back my words if I was wrong about Abu Sayyad.

I think the 'morality squad' is condemned as nauseam.. perhaps it is time for folks to look into their own backyard before pointing the finger?
at least that is what I got out of the thread!

I was always thinking that majority of muslims support morality police. But again - "I might be wrong".

Isn't that the whole point of a 'Jewish state' why did you think they imposed their colonial settler state were it not to impose 'orthodoxy' and await their 'Moschaich'?

Maybe You are right Skye, only jewish leaders can really know. But still its interesting what future brings as still there are millions of non practicing jews in Israel.

[barney]

Suomi is saying that in Israel the religious Jews who do this are criminals and are charged and punished.

He compares it to Iran, KSA and Talibani Afganistan where such people are acting on behalf of the state and as part of the law.

[جوري]

Thats why I said - "maybe Im wrong". I know that there are such squads even in Malaysia, but I back my words if I was wrong about Abu Sayyad.

'Morality squad' has no basis in Islamic Jurisprudence, there is no compulsion in religion!

I was always thinking that majority of muslims support morality police. But again - "I might be wrong".

Says who? some sort of formal study?

Maybe You are right Skye, only jewish leaders can really know. But still its interesting what future brings as still there are millions of non practicing jews in Israel.

Isn't it a shame, that they should assemble away from their actual homelands, whether Iraqis, German, or Ethiopian Jews, only to uphold a state of debauchery rather than the 'moral' one mandated by their God, in their so-called holy land?

cheers

[جوري]

Suomi is saying that in Israel the religious Jews who do this are criminals and are charged and punished.

He compares it to Iran, KSA and Talibani Afganistan where such people are acting on behalf of the state and as part of the law.

Suomi, knows this because? I mean what are his qualifications? he is the Israeli expert?--or just his opinion which somehow we should hold in high regard, because he has shown such great aptitude?

cheers

[barney]

He has to be an expert on israel? Perhaps he is? Perhaps he's not. Perhaps he read a few articals on trials of orthodox jewish modesty criminals?

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/09/16...aeli-citizens/

Now all we need is a comparitive piece showing that Iran KSA and the Taliban are arresting and charging their own Ministry of Vice and Virtue employees who authorised by that same state, beat the snot out of ankle-showers.

Good luck in finding one.

[جوري]

He has to be an expert on israel? Perhaps he is? Perhaps he's not. Perhaps he read a few articals on trials of orthodox jewish modesty criminals?

Having an opinion or browsing through the web doesn't make scholars out of monkeys!

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/09/16...aeli-citizens/

a little blog, that starts with (taking the lead from Muslims) is already a turn off.

Now all we need is a comparitive piece showing that Iran KSA and the Taliban are arresting and charging their own Ministry of Vice and Virtue employees who authorised by that same state, beat the snot out of ankle-showers.

Good luck in finding one.

It would be interesting indeed, given the disparity of what is written by western media w h o r e s and what actually occurs -- I direct your attention of course to a recent article posted by a Moron here, alleging a woman is under threat of arrest for exposing her face, when I have shown you two pictures of foreign women in KSA without a veil all together in broad day light posing for pictures ..

cheers

[barney]

Calling someone a monkey because, in your opinion, they are not qualified to talk about Israeli law? A small blog is what i linked, there are hundreds of links to prove that Israel is treating the criminals as criminals. Are you saying that they are not doing this? If so then it ranks right up there with your beleif about US tanks sold to KSA with self destruct buttons held by the americans.(always makes me giggle that one)
Are you also saying that KSA and Iran and the Taliban arresst their own ministry employees for their actions? That these Ministrys dont exist because they dont fit with your idea of what a muslim nation actually does?

Post a link and prove it. i aw8 with baited breff.

We discussed KSA a while back. You were there as a small girl. Things change. All areas are not the same.
The western media must be dressing people up in arab clothing in fake arab cities beating up women and vidioing the whole thing to disparage Islam.

Of course.

[Suomipoika]

Suomi, knows this because? I mean what are his qualifications? he is the Israeli expert?--or just his opinion which somehow we should hold in high regard, because he has shown such great aptitude?

cheers

No more than anyone elses. Im bit puzzled I must admit because I dont really understand why and where do you get such idea that my opinion and posts should be regarded any differently than those of others.

Im no Israeli expert, Im just forming my opinion based on what I read, which isnt that much. Abu Sayyad was proclaiming hypocricy because this isnt condemned as "Israeli Taleban" while I believe he ignored/missed the reasons why "world organisations" dont criticise Israel.

Thats really all there is to it. Thats my opinion, if its wrong, then so be it, Im always willing to hear why.

[جوري]

Calling someone a monkey because, in your opinion, they are not qualified to talk about Israeli law?

Glad you pointed that out.. It is a general observation along the lines of general observations many here feel free to dispense with!

A small blog is what i linked, there are hundreds of links to prove that Israel is treating the criminals as criminals. Are you saying that they are not doing this? If so then it ranks right up there with your beleif about US tanks sold to KSA with self destruct buttons held by the americans.(always makes me giggle that one)

The small blog of links is only as good as the objectivity of folks who write in it. I have already given my personal opinion on the matter. Israel settled on stolen land to uphold their Jewish laws and await their moschaich, why else do you think they are there, were it not for a huge biblical event? why should the debauched not follow those laws is beyond me, considering they are free to live the western life style they so choose in their actual homeland, 95% of Israelis aren't middle eastern in origin they are ashkenazic, whether Polish, German, or Russian etc, I am sure they won't have a morality squad in their actual respective countries.

Are you also saying that KSA and Iran and the Taliban arresst their own ministry employees for their actions? That these Ministrys dont exist because they dont fit with your idea of what a muslim nation actually does?
Post a link and prove it. i aw8 with baited breff.

I am saying you and the other fellow aren't fit to speak of those countries period! any further questions you may direct to Yvonne Ridely a fellow brit and a journalist I believe? as she was actually captured by the Taliban, get a bird's eye view of what actually happens, in lieu of what you think happens!

We discussed KSA a while back. You were there as a small girl. Things change. All areas are not the same.
The western media must be dressing people up in arab clothing in fake arab cities beating up women and vidioing the whole thing to disparage Islam.

Of course.

And you got another lady telling you, that she was there in 2004 and it is even more liberal than it was. To discourage by pretense of appall and satire really doesn't do much for me. Try other tactics!
Or should I get a picture of that Austrian who raped his daughter and kept her in the basement as a poster for western ideals?

cheers

[جوري]

No more than anyone elses. Im bit puzzled I must admit because I dont really understand why and where do you get such idea that my opinion and posts should be regarded any differently than those of others.

Who are the others?

Im no Israeli expert, Im just forming my opinion based on what I read, which isnt that much. Abu Sayyad was proclaiming hypocricy because this isnt condemned as "Israeli Taleban" while I believe he ignored/missed the reasons why "world organisations" dont criticise Israel.

What in your mind are the actual reasons 'world organizations' don't condemn Israel?

Thats really all there is to it. Thats my opinion, if its wrong, then so be it, Im always willing to hear why.

Glad to hear it. An opinion is just that, perhaps you can strip it of all authority and self-assurance!

cheers

[barney]

So in short, in the world according to PA.
No non muslim has a right to an opinion, your opinions are always correct even if unresearched. You dont need to reasearch anything yourself, and a mentally ill lunatic murderer now in prison is a excellent example of western state values, whilst the Ministry of Vice and Virtue in the Muslim nations is simply made up, by the west, and if these ministrys do exist, they simply offer freindly advice on modesty.

PA, your living in a happy fluffy world there. I wish you the best with it.

[Suomipoika]

Who are the others?

Everyone, anyone.

What in your mind are the actual reasons 'world organizations' don't condemn Israel?

I think I said it earlier, the main point of my opinion is bolded:
http://www.islamicboard.com/1018246-post8.html

Glad to hear it. An opinion is just that, perhaps you can strip it of all authority and self-assurance!

cheers

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[جوري]

So in short, in the world according to PA.

Thankfully you are far removed from my world!

No non muslim has a right to an opinion, your opinions are always correct even if unresearched. You dont need to reasearch anything yourself,

An opinion is an opinion and as weighty as the time spent researching it-- google will give you a million opinion on everything. You'll need some formal education to sort through it. for instance when speaking of army artillery you'll need to have done more than have peeled potato in your military unit to speak about whole or individual parts with some dexterity!
I don't personally enter spheres beyond my expertise but am amused at how proficient the lot of you on middle eastern affairs!

and a mentally ill lunatic murderer now in prison is a excellent example of western state values, whilst the Ministry of Vice and Virtue in the Muslim nations is simply made up, by the west, and if these ministrys do exist, they simply offer freindly advice on modesty.

on can certainly make it a case of more loons per capita in the western hemispheres? school shootings, husbands murdering their wives, chopping them to pieces as well their and unborn children to run away with lovers, mothers drowning five kids in a bathtub, another drowning two in a lake to run away with new lover, man fathering his own grandchildren, BCP passed out to 11 year old girls in the mid west etc etc.. it must all be also made up by the east to enforce their own morality squad drive by shootings with a BB gun? I think you need to grow up. Your style is ridiculous

PA, your living in a happy fluffy world there. I wish you the best with it.

Who is Pa? I am not sure if I should be tickled or aggrieved by what you think, but I think the next logical thing is to do what I always do, shrug my shoulders and :rollseyes

cheers

[barney]

Sky has again defeated herself. When in doubt the direction of the thread is deflected onto something more comfortable.

[جوري]

Everyone, anyone.

Perhaps you can stop circling the airport and bring this plane in for a landing, I am no mind reader..

I think I said it earlier, the main point of my opinion is bolded:
http://www.islamicboard.com/1018246-post8.html

Aha, and?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Thanks, I am not a tea drinker, and I am actually quite pale, I believe the irony is lost on me with this one!

[barney]

Thankfully you are far removed from my world!

An opinion is an opinion and as weighty as the time spent researching it-- google will give you a million opinion on everything. You'll need some formal education to sort through it. for instance when speaking of army artillery you'll need to have done more than have peeled potato in your military unit to speak about whole or individual parts with some dexterity!
I don't personally enter spheres beyond my expertise but am amused at how proficient the lot of you on middle eastern affairs!


on can certainly make it a case of more loons per capita in the western hemispheres? school shootings, husbands murdering their wives, chopping them to pieces as well their and unborn children to run away with lovers, mothers drowning five kids in a bathtub, another drowning two in a lake to run away with new lover, man fathering his own grandchildren, BCP passed out to 11 year old girls in the mid west etc etc.. it must all be also made up by the east to enforce their own morality squad drive by shootings with a BB gun? I think you need to grow up. Your style is ridiculous



Who is Pa? I am not sure if I should be tickled or aggrieved by what you think, but I think the next logical thing is to do what I always do, shrug my shoulders and :rollseyes

cheers

We are not debating common criminals here. The thread is about religious zelotry, based on scripture used by repressive abusers.
In Israel, they are locked up. In Iran, they are in charge.

[جوري]

Sky has again defeated herself. When in doubt the direction of the thread is deflected onto something more comfortable.

I enjoy how you assure yourself and speak with authority, like a kid who failed class and blames it on the teacher anyway.
When you have a solid point. i.e backed up with some formal research a step further even knowing how to critique research, are an eye witness to events en masse, have some statistics, please bring it forefront to the stage.. we'll all be waiting to applaud you.. we all know how you love it and that it makes you feel 50% better..

there there

[barney]

I enjoy how you assure yourself and speak with authority, like a kid who failed class and blames it on the teacher anyway.
When you have a solid point. i.e backed up with some formal research a step further even knowing how to critique research, are an eye witness to events en masse, have some statistics, please bring it forefront to the stage.. we'll all be waiting to applaud you.. we all know how you love it and that it makes you feel 50% better..

there there

Still waiting for the post about iran locking up its own ministry officials.


Pot: Kettle :Black is a phrase which means the person who is accusing, is guilty of the thing they accuse of.

[جوري]

We are not debating common criminals here. The thread is about religious zelotry, based on scripture used by repressive abusers.
In Israel, they are locked up. In Iran, they are in charge.

I can't speak for Iran, I don't like their brand of Islam, but that is in fact a complete digression, even on your part.

Point is, these are Jewish laws those 'zealots' are imposing, whether or not they are locked up for it is a tertiary subject.
When you form a colonist settler state with the purpose of calling it a 'Jewish state' you can expect that they have to uphold the laws of their book, and that is unfortunately for the debauched what their book requests.

It would be prudent upon those who like to spend the night whiling away in their peignoir to stay in their former mother lands in the west where they can do as they please..

Was this written so even you can understand?
The whole point Abu Sayyad was making, is, if your house is made of glass don't throw people with stones. i.e they mock Muslim morality,yet when their own try to impose morality, supposedly it is swept under the rug without the microscopic attention Muslim women are receiving and by the way that goes for everyone from Latvian nuns to Hasidic Jews or the whole matter is simply thought outlandish because God forbid someone should put Jewish laws in the newly established colonial settler state under scrutiny ..
got it?

[barney]

Oh I'm sure that most moderate Jews say that its a warped version of their laws. Personally I think it covers a Jewish theocracy nicely. Good job the state and religion are seperated in that country eh?
It's a glimpse of what a theocracy could be like. Similar to the Inquisition, The Taliban or indeed a "true" islamic state.

Israel at least has the sense to imprison these nutters. When they make up a section of the official government, as in Iran or KSA, then you have problems.

I'm starting to get the idea, that you might not be 100% in agreement with the MFPOV&POV departments in KSA etc going around beating people up?

[Suomipoika]

The whole point Abu Sayyad was making, is, if your house is made of glass don't throw people with stones. i.e they mock Muslim morality,yet when their own try to impose morality, supposedly it is swept under the rug without the microscopic attention Muslim women are receiving and by the way that goes for everyone from Latvian nuns to Hasidic Jews or the whole matter is simply thought outlandish because God forbid someone should put Jewish laws in the newly established colonial settler state under scrutiny ..

According to the article Israel is passing out indictments to people who have been behind these attacks, has the person/people in Saudi Arabia that passed down the famous punishment that was cancelled to that raped woman been indicted by Saudi authorities? Or was the lashing sentence to her just one of a kind? There is in my opinion the reason why the criticism towards Israel is so minimal.

[جوري]

Oh I'm sure that most moderate Jews say that its a warped version of their laws. Personally I think it covers a Jewish theocracy nicely. Good job the state and religion are seperated in that country eh?
It's a glimpse of what a theocracy could be like. Similar to the Inquisition, The Taliban or indeed a "true" islamic state.

There is no such thing as moderate or orthodox in any religion, save for Christianity simply because they don't know their ass from their face..
there is however, practicing or non-practicing in any religion.
Can people differ in their interpretation of scriptures? Sure
Maybe on telling you, whether your hair should be in a snood, or a headband or a Kippah or a hat, not that it should be crimped by your new GHD styler and thrust in some guys face in a lap dance..
That is the point, minor nuances of interpretation of religious text doesn't equate of freedom from religious text!

Israel at least has the sense to imprison these nutters. When they make up a section of the official government, as in Iran or KSA, then you have problems.

Leaving Iran and KSA aside btw Iran is a freaky and quite liberal a country as stated by prophet Mihammed (SAW) all the evils of the end will actually come from their neck of the wood but I digress, and again, point to your attention. What is the point of holding a "Jewish state' if you will not uphold Jewish laws?

I'm starting to get the idea, that you might not be 100% in agreement with the MFPOV&POV departments in KSA etc going around beating people up?

only for British tourists, but that is because I secretly believe they like to be flogged, and I am not into denying people their pleasures!

cheers

[barney]

Ahh those wacky wacky Parthians eh? All smite this and chop off that.

Your idea of religion being either practicing or non-practicing bears no relation to any religion yet formed. It's an extreme veiw to beleive that no extreme veiws exist.

Your fishing for my veiws on israel?

I beleive that israel had less claim to the land than the followers of Wotan have to the Plain of York.(The Wotan devout held york in 600AD, 1400 years ago. Israel lost their state 2300 years ago)
A "message from God" dosnt entitle someone to real estate; be that real estate Palastine or Spain.

So with a nonsensical claim and on the back of a terror campaign the UN voted for its establishment. Pretty mad to do that really, but thats world democracy as best as it could be arranged. Now we have generations of jews living there, the early kibbutzes failed and the land which was intended as a homeland for the jewish people, not a State of Judism is a reality. Several wars against attackers from all surrounding nations hasnt changed this. You could almost say that "God was on their side". But that again would be a mistake.

Would I rather Israel not exist? It would have been in the circumstances we have , preferable that it diddnt.
Whats more preferable now? That Israelis and Muslims sort their mutual stupidity over religion and race out and live like human beings so that the rest of the 6 billion people on the planet dont suffer from the actions of twenty million.

[جوري]

Ahh those wacky wacky Parthians eh? All smite this and chop off that.

indeed, except all the Iranians I have met like to chop off prostate and lung lobes using state of the art robotics!

Your idea of religion being either practicing or non-practicing bears no relation to any religion yet formed. It's an extreme veiw to beleive that no extreme veiws exist.

I told you, this doesn't exist in Christianity and you a former christian.
I think if you actually understood the laws, you wouldn't find any of them extreme. It is a matter of what you personally willing to accept, to which there is no compulsion!

Your fishing for my veiws on israel?

Not really no, in fact I was working on my other thread when my email box dinged-- but I have a feeling you'll share anywho..

I beleive that israel had less claim to the land than the followers of Wotan have to the Plain of York.(The Wotan devout held york in 600AD, 1400 years ago. Israel lost their state 2300 years ago)
A "message from God" dosnt entitle someone to real estate; be that real estate Palastine or Spain.

well, they are there for a reason.. I am just bewildered why they are not upholding their Yaweh imposed laws it while they await their biblical events to take place?

So with a nonsensical claim and on the back of a terror campaign the UN voted for its establishment. Pretty mad to do that really, but thats world democracy as best as it could be arranged. Now we have generations of jews living there, the early kibbutzes failed and the land which was intended as a homeland for the jewish people, not a State of Judism is a reality. Several wars against attackers from all surrounding nations hasnt changed this. You could almost say that "God was on their side". But that again would be a mistake.

I never claimed that God was on their side at all. If I am to search my own scriptures chapter 17..

وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوًّا كَبِيرًا {4}

[Pickthal 17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً {5}

[Pickthal 17:5] So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.

ثُمَّ

رَدَدْنَا لَكُمُ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيرًا {6}

[Pickthal 17:6] Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوؤُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُواْ مَا عَلَوْاْ تَتْبِيرًا {7}

[Pickthal 17:7] (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.

and at the end of the chapter

وَقُلْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُواْ الأَرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا {104}

[Pickthal 17:104] And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

I promise you, the promise of the end.. ISN'T A GOOD THING FOR THEM.. so we this is all but by divine decree, not by British or Jewish decree.. and it doesn't really matter who sympathizes or who thinks they are victims or who thinks they are entitled!
I apologize for pckthal's poor translation but I am sure you can understand and apply some history to event happened and even happening and event yet to happen?

Would I rather Israel not exist? It would have been in the circumstances we have , preferable that it diddnt.
Whats more preferable now? That Israelis and Muslims sort their mutual stupidity over religion and race out and live like human beings so that the rest of the 6 billion people on the planet dont suffer from the actions of twenty million.

I like your rosy dreams.. but I am afraid not everyone is sporting rose tinted glasses.. so you can (and I say this with an open heart) just enjoy your life and leave the creation to the creator, he'll sort it out.. and I will take back to my other thread and try to finish it this time hopefully without distractions...

cheers

[alcurad]

btw Iran is a freaky and quite liberal a country as stated by prophet Mihammed (SAW) all the evils of the end will actually come from their neck of the wood
cheers

interesting,but could you provide the hadeeth sister?

[جوري]

interesting,but could you provide the hadeeth sister?

Sahih Muslim Hadith 3187 Narrated by AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Dajjal will come from the eastern side with the intention of attacking Medina until he will get down behind Uhud. Then the angels will turn his face towards Syria and there he will perish.

although this isn't the one I had in mind, there was another where he actually got up and looked toward the east and said the evils will come from there..

You have to understand that when I read I don't commit to memory hadith number 3187 in volume 3 etc etc for instance, but I am sure googling or asking a scholar will yield results..

:w:

[جوري]

here is another
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 5487 Narrated by AbuBakr as-Siddiq
Amr ibn Hurayth quoted AbuBakr as-Siddiq as saying that Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) told them the Dajjal would come forth from a land in the East called Khurasan, followed by people whose faces resembled shields covered with skin. Tirmidhi transmitted it.

Also another one, most (fitan) tribulations coming from there, in the book about the end by ibn kathir..

:w:

[barney]

Khurasan also covered Afganistan.
Having sheild shaped heads though i'm not sure about. Turkmanistan has more of a mongel ethnicity and they tend to have broader flatter faces.

[north_malaysian]

Khurasan also covered Afganistan.

If I'm not mistaken, the Khorasanis are Sunni Muslims...not Shiites...

[barney]

Dunno. I was using proffesser wiki!
:D

[alcurad]

"You have to understand that when I read I don't commit to memory hadith number 3187 in volume 3 etc etc for instance, but I am sure googling or asking a scholar will yield results.."

thanks and sorry for the trouble:)

although this isn't the one I had in mind, there was another where he actually got up and looked toward the east and said the evils will come from there..:w:

though some say to the east of Medina lies Najd

btw,a bit off topic but does it mean the Iranians/Shiites will follow dajjal even though they claim to await the Mahdi the most amongst all muslims?

[north_malaysian]

Dunno. I was using proffesser wiki!
:D

Professor Wiki, Sheikh Google....:D

[alcurad]

funny:)

[north_malaysian]

"You have to understand that when I read I don't commit to memory hadith number 3187 in volume 3 etc etc for instance, but I am sure googling or asking a scholar will yield results.."

thanks and sorry for the trouble:)


though some say to the east of Medina lies Najd

btw,a bit off topic but does it mean the Iranians/Shiites will follow dajjal even though they claim to await the Mahdi the most amongst all muslims?

Nejd is neighbouring the province of Hijaz right?

I've heard that some people claimed that Dajjal is the 12th hidden imam... and some said that Dajjal is a Jew controlling USA from the Bermuda triangle...

But what Dajjal has to do with Jewish modesty patrol?

[alcurad]

yes, Najd is neighboring to Hejaz and east of it.

see, according to the ahadeeth a great number of Jews will follow him. thus rise in Jewish 'Ultra orthodox ism' is also the rise of people who are awaiting the mosaich who has yet to materialize, and certainly they won't accept Jesus as the mosaich so...

[north_malaysian]

see, according to the ahadeeth a great number of Jews will follow him. thus rise in Jewish 'Ultra orthodox ism' is also the rise of people who are awaiting the mosaich who has yet to materialize, and certainly they won't accept Jesus as the mosaich so...

so....you're saying that Dajjal is the awaited Moshiach...and those modesty patrol Orthodox Jews would be the followers?:blind:

[alcurad]

the environment they live in is conductive to such thoughts.

I was simply pointing out some co-relation in the subjects since you asked...:)

[جوري]

Khurasan also covered Afganistan.
Having sheild shaped heads though i'm not sure about. Turkmanistan has more of a mongel ethnicity and they tend to have broader flatter faces.

I don't believe the shields covered with skins to denote their actual faces -- perhaps simply an armour they will be sporting... the same as zho el'qrnyen in chapter 18, isn't the name of a man but a description of man who sported

and of course

Allah swt knows best

[جوري]

"You have to understand that when I read I don't commit to memory hadith number 3187 in volume 3 etc etc for instance, but I am sure googling or asking a scholar will yield results.

."

"thanks and sorry for the trouble:)

It is no trouble at all, just that I hate googling anything Islamic, I get 438958935 negative websites for everyone with what I am looking for, it is hard to sort through..

though some say to the east of Medina lies Najd

I really believe it is Iran. I used to defend them, but all the Iranians I have encountered neither understand Islam, follow it properly or willing to accept the fact they were conquered by Arabs.. the speak often with such hatred of Islam.. I mean compare them to say the Egyptians who also has a great empire before Islam but embraced it with completely open arms-- these folks are too consumed still with their pagan festivals and practices if at all. The place that gave us the likes of Salamn Rushdie and persopalis, and runs useless studies on why not to fast, they fit the prophecies well.. the fact that the majority of them are shiites and they persecute the Sunnis on the Saudi border, their agenda is really no different than the amero-Israeli one, neither are their practices.

btw,a bit off topic but does it mean the Iranians/Shiites will follow dajjal even though they claim to await the Mahdi the most amongst all muslims?

I believe mostly the Jews will follow him, in fact some Jews will follow Jesus as well Christians but the Jews who follow him will be a minority and it is said he'll be a witness against them on the day of judgment.
Jesus won't have any 'special powers' when he descends, and you must understand the earth will be in a very bad shape, in terms of crops and droughts, poverty, bankruptcy (who knows we might even be a witness to all of this given the bad economic shape and climate changes around the world) so when the Dajjal comes, he will resemble everything the Jews are awaiting, and if you research in their own scriptures, he really will do the things that the Dajjal (anti-christ) will do.. I mean they describe exactly the anti-Christ.. sob7an Allah


Allah knows best

:w:

[Chuck]

In Israel, they are locked up.

Those 'modesty squads' were locked up in Israel?

[Suomipoika]

Those 'modesty squads' were locked up in Israel?

If they assault people, they have to deal with indictments. Id imagine that also involves locking up in most violent cases. Do you have any other knowledge that would imply that they are not punished/locked up after they have been found guilty?

[doorster]

....

I've heard that some people claimed that Dajjal is the 12th hidden imam... ...

and they are well able to justify their claim, if I may say so!
:w:

[doorster]

yes, Najd is neighboring to Hejaz and east of it.

see, according to the ahadeeth a great number of Jews will follow him. thus rise in Jewish 'Ultra orthodox ism' is also the rise of people who are awaiting the mosaich who has yet to materialize, and certainly they won't accept Jesus as the mosaich so...

could that number be around 70 thousand and not 15 million (which might be total Jewish population of the entire planet)

oh BTW how many jews are there of the Iranian variety?

and did I ever say to you that little knowlege is a dangerous thing?

is 70 thousand a greater part of 15 million?

[north_malaysian]

could that number be around 70 thousand and not 15 million (which might be total Jewish population of the entire planet)

oh BTW how many jews are there of the Iranian variety?

and did I ever say to you that little knowlege is a dangerous thing?

is 70 thousand a greater part of 15 million?

Yeah... I believe that only a small group of Jews would be the followers of Dajjal....

When Al Mahdi and Jesus come, most of the Jews would be their supporters...

[north_malaysian]

I don't believe the shields covered with skins to denote their actual faces -- perhaps simply an armour they will be sporting... the same as zho el'qrnyen in chapter 18, isn't the name of a man but a description of man who sported

and of course

Allah swt knows best

I've read an article years ago saying that Dhulqarnayn was not Alexander the Great, but he was Cyrus the Great, the Emperor of Persia.

[Chuck]

If they assault people, they have to deal with indictments. Id imagine that also involves locking up in most violent cases. Do you have any other knowledge that would imply that they are not punished/locked up after they have been found guilty?

I've not read anywhere that they have been locked up. Some people might have that done something very extreme, but 'modesty squads' have been operating for a long time and I've not seen any news that said they have been imprisoned by the govt. So just checking if it is just assumption.

But I've nothing against 'modesty squads,' esp moderate ones, I don't support everything they do, but I can understand why they have local support in their communities.

[Gator]

I've not read anywhere that they have been locked up.

Member of 'modesty squad' indicted
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS


A 29-year-old man affiliated with Jerusalem's haredi "modesty squad" has been indicted in a Jerusalem court for allegedly assaulting a 31-year-old woman in her apartment, together with six other men, after they suspected she had carried out "improper" relations with other men, court documents released Sunday show.

The suspect, Elhanan Buzaglo, who worked for the haredi modesty squad - a vigilante group active in the Mea Shearim and Geula neighborhoods that sees to it that the city's haredi residents conduct themselves in accordance with the conventions of their ultra-observant lifestyle - was allegedly paid $2,000 for his services, the charge sheet states.

...........

Buzaglo was arrested last month after his fingerprints were found in the plaintiff's apartment, police said.

"A man who is allegedly willing to take part in the cruel beating of a young and helpless woman 'suspected' of socializing with married men, and all this solely for money, is a dangerous, conscienceless person with no inhibitions," Judge Nava Ben-Or wrote in her decision to extend his remand in custody.

A second suspect has been arrested in the case, Jerusalem police spokesman Asi Aharoni said.

The suspect, Binyamin Meirovitch of Jerusalem, is believed to be one of the modesty squad's leaders, and the person responsible for the illicit organization's operations.

The other men involved in the attack remain at large.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1219572113369


Chuck,
Just FYI. Now you've read that people have been locked up for this. I'm glad I could help you.

Regards.

[جوري]

I believe the operative word in this thread is 'assault'

cheers

[alcurad]

could that number be around 70 thousand and not 15 million (which might be total Jewish population of the entire planet)

oh BTW how many jews are there of the Iranian variety?

and did I ever say to you that little knowlege is a dangerous thing?

is 70 thousand a greater part of 15 million?

around 25000 according to some...

and some scholars have said this is at the time of the dajjal :

«لتقاتلن اليهود حتى يقول الشجر والحجر: يا مسلم يا عبد الله ورائي يهودي تعال فاقتله»


and please refer to my post again, I said a great number of them, not most of them.

[doorster]

around 25000 according to some...

and some scholars have said this is at the time of the dajjal :
<snip>

and please refer to my post again, I said a great number of them, not most of them.

oh dear o deary me!

scholars have said this or is it from the ahadees?

this must be most misquoted and abused line I have ever come across and it is used by Jewish hate mongers to bash Islam with the same zeal as it is used by the lunatic wing of alleged scholars of Islam.

refer to my post again, I said a great number of them, not most of them.

I looked and saw no difference at all, to me a great number still implies a huge number

when the time comes current Jewish population may even be ten times it is today and that would make the figure of between 20k and 70k even more insignificant (in percentage terms)

[Woodrow]

None of us here are scholars and if anyone does happen to be one, we have no verification that the person using the name is truly that person.

Please be aware that each of us can only express our own opinion and that may not always be correct.

To post any thing that may appear to be a fatwa, Scholastic tasfir or an "official opinion of Islam" list a valid source to verify the authenticity.

Outside of that acknowledge a comment is personal opinion and subject to scrutiny by people that may be more knowledgable.

Personal, opinion is far game for disagreement and must not be presented as valid Islamic teaching, unless a valid source to prove it is can be shown.

Outside of that Bro. Doorster's signature

29:46
and argue not with the people of the Book, unless it be in (a way) that is better,
except with those of them who do wrong,
and Say:
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; Our Ilâh and Your Ilâh is One (Allâh), and to Him we have submitted".

sums up any arguement very well and further debate will be seen as being off topic or violation of a forum rule that bans commentary of fiqh and aqeedah.

[alcurad]

this must be most misquoted and abused line I have ever come across and it is used by Jewish hate mongers to bash Islam with the same zeal as it is used by the lunatic wing of alleged scholars of Islam.I looked and saw no difference at all, to me a great number still implies a huge number

now I understand where is this coming from, so you think I'm using this to imply we will annihilate the Jews etc?
if so, I agree in principal with you in the way you replied.
although you do seem to be a bit too quick to jump to unfounded assumptions.
again, I wasn't implying most of them, i simply said a great number. if you think seventy thousand is a small number then you're free to do so, and I wasn't speaking percentage wise to bring it up anyway.


also, not having knowledge about some subject or the scholars opinions about it is by no means reason to dismiss it when it is brought up. bu this matter is perhaps too complex for some, and I'll admit all the source/s I can provide are in Arabic...

[doorster]

now I understand where is this coming from, so you think I'm using this to imply we will annihilate the Jews etc?
if so, I agree in principal with you in the way you replied.
although you do seem to be a bit too quick to jump to unfounded assumptions.
again, I wasn't implying most of them, i simply said a great number. if you think seventy thousand is a small number then you're free to do so, and I wasn't speaking percentage wise to bring it up anyway.


also, not having knowledge about some subject or the scholars opinions about it is by no means reason to dismiss it when it is brought up. but this matter is perhaps too complex for some, and I'll admit all the source/s I can provide are in Arabic...

okay Thank you! I understand you too now so I apologise for any upset I may have caused

but I still prefer posts which mention that scholar says this, that or the other to actually have the name of the scholar

:w:
edit

also, not having knowledge about some subject or the scholars opinions about it is by no means reason to dismiss it when it is brought up. but this matter is perhaps too complex for some, and I'll admit all the source/s I can provide are in Arabic...

I think that any genuine Muslim website in any language (as source) is acceptable here on LI (better than no source at all :) )

but I do not need you to post the source for Arabic line posted @ http://www.islamicboard.com/1019260-post61.html

wa salaam

[abdunnur]

Selam to you abu Sayyad! I appreciate you are concerned about some things. If you are upset about condition of muslims, try to find out how much muslims suffer ( contact association of human rights) in lot of countries where no exist -democratic low-, including lot of "muslims" country.
Situation in Palestina is not good, but there is lot of country where is worse for muslims. In this time, lot of muslims rise tension about jewish and irritate and provoke many muslims to start violence against anybody! Results: Lot of muslims became harmed of police, and go to prison. We dont need that.
Israel is occupier,( lot of muslims took money when they sell territory) but it is very complex problem.
When you speak about individual person, do you know about jewish girl who reported -from face of place- and she killed of Israel soldiers. Who of muslims said to her familly-thanx? What about when "muslims" make violence, will we speak about that? Whatever you think about me, I am on muslims side, but i recommend to you to collect more informations before you speak about Israel. When we, muslims, start to speak about us, our good and BAD, it wil be better.
Is there anybody to say to muslims in Palestina: "dont use stones to hit Israels soldiers"! Try to use a stone against Hitlers soldiers, soldiers of Saddam Husein, soldiers of China...
You and me are just persons, let presidents of "muslims" states take care about it.

[doorster]

Selam to you abu Sayyad! I appreciate you are concerned about some things. If you are upset about condition of muslims, try to find out how much muslims suffer ( contact association of human rights) in lot of countries where no exist -democratic low-, including lot of "muslims" country.

Situation in Palestina is not good, but there is lot of country where is worse for muslims. In this time, lot of muslims rise tension about jewish and irritate and provoke many muslims to start violence against anybody! Results: Lot of muslims became harmed of police, and go to prison. We dont need that.

Israel is occupier,( lot of muslims took money when they sell territory) but it is very complex problem.

When you speak about individual person, do you know about jewish girl who reported -from face of place- and she killed off Israel soldiers. Which of muslims said to her familly-thanx?

What about when "muslims" make violence, will we speak about that? Whatever you think about me, I am on muslims side, but i recommend to you to collect more informations before you speak about Israel. When we, muslims, start to speak about us, our good and BAD, it wil be better.

Is there anybody to say to muslims in Palestina: "dont use stones to hit Israels soldiers"! Try to use a stone against Hitlers soldiers, soldiers of Saddam Husein, soldiers of China...

You and me are just persons, let presidents of "muslims" states take care about it.

I don't understand why you are addressing him when all he did was to post a news article which others turned in to a hate-fest. and could you read the whole thread so that you can see that Israel is being defended as much as being attacked in this thread

having said that, I do, however, have to agree that we are never going to get anywhere until we look at our own faults and stop blaming the world (west) for all our woes, instead we need to engage with it.
:w:

edit:

:-[ I am stupid, I just looked at the first post again and noticed a comment from him at the very bottom, I am sorry carry on! I bid you all farewell, good night and all that :thumbs_up

[alcurad]

I'm glad that's cleared, thanks:)

[جوري]

I've read an article years ago saying that Dhulqarnayn was not Alexander the Great, but he was Cyrus the Great, the Emperor of Persia.

I read an article that it was Solomon the prophet since the person was described as pious and having many means to accomplish things but we had a huge argument about it here on LI.. to be quite honest, only Allah swt knows who he is, one thing for sure he couldn't have been someone not pious, and Alexander the great was anything but.. as history tells..

Allah knows best

:w:

[Woodrow]

I read an article that it was Solomon the prophet since the person was described as pious and having many means to accomplish things but we had a huge argument about it here on LI.. to be quite honest, only Allah swt knows who he is, one thing for sure he couldn't have been someone not pious, and Alexander the great was anything but.. as history tells..

Allah knows best

:w:

True

the person we have come to know as Alexander was the son of Phillipi ll of Macedonia his actual name was Phillipi lll or Phillipou. The name Alexander is a corrupted English translation for the Arabic Al-eskandra, which I believe came from a Farsi derogatory nickname pertaining to his lust for young boys.

In much of the Arabic world the name Al-eskandra is used in much the same way "boogey man" is used in the Western world. Adults sometimes warn their children that if they are not good, Al-eskandra will come take them away.

al-eskandra does not seem to have been a very nice or admirable person and with no indication of having been pious.

[barney]

Alexander diddnt need to be Pious.
After his visit to Ammon at Siwah he announced his Godhood as the son of Zeus,which was accepted mainly, escpecially after he started dressing in the robes of Aammon.

As a God, he obviously diddnt feel the need to be Pious.

[Woodrow]

Alexander diddnt need to be Pious.
After his visit to Ammon at Siwah he announced his Godhood as the son of Zeus,which was accepted mainly, escpecially after he started dressing in the robes of Aammon.

As a God, he obviously diddnt feel the need to be Pious.

also true,

Interesting side note historically it seems self-proclaimed gods, generally were not very nice people.

[barney]

Kim Jong Ill seems kinda sweet.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3dC2aDHtEqk

You have to watch it to the end...subtitles are fuzzy, but worth reading.

[north_malaysian]

True

the person we have come to know as Alexander was the son of Phillipi ll of Macedonia his actual name was Phillipi lll or Phillipou. The name Alexander is a corrupted English translation for the Arabic Al-eskandra, which I believe came from a Farsi derogatory nickname pertaining to his lust for young boys.

In much of the Arabic world the name Al-eskandra is used in much the same way "boogey man" is used in the Western world. Adults sometimes warn their children that if they are not good, Al-eskandra will come take them away.

al-eskandra does not seem to have been a very nice or admirable person and with no indication of having been pious.

according to ancient Malay legend... Malays are descendants of Iskandar Zulkarnain.... (Alexander the Dhulqarnayn)...thats why there are hundreds of thousands of people with the name "Iskandar" in Malaysia...

[wth1257]

Because he thinks that modesty patrols are ok. Just not in Israel. Or maybe Im wrong.
.

I believe you have subatantially missed his point.

I don't think he is claiming that such behavior is not present in Muslim countries, or even that it is wrong, his point seems to be that if these were Muslims doing this it would instantly be up on Rober Spencer's "Jihad Watch" (a disgusting websight run by a slimy excuse for a human being) as further proof of "Muslim Agression". He is noteing that this story is not reported in the same way as a Muslim equivalent because there is a deeply held Western prejudice that Muslim=opression of women.

For instance if this were a Muslim group Robert Spencer would point to this, Domestic abuse rates of Muslim homes in, for example, the UK and then draw the conclusion that the common factor here is Islam, therefore Islam must be the cause. However people do not take the fact of this Jewish modesty squad, some equivalent action in a geographically different Jewish communiyt and then draw the conclusion that Jusaidm is causing opression of women.

and is point is quite spot on, in my oppinion:hmm: