How much do you rely on the Bible?

[rpwelton]

The Qur'an is a Book of guidance, a Book of Law, and most importantly, a Book of faith. As Muslims, we derive the most fundamental tenant of our religion from this Book, and that is: There is no god but Allah.

"Allah, (there is) no god but He, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all things subsist" (3:2)

"Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?" (4:87)

"Most surely this is the true explanation, and there is no god but Allah; and most surely Allah-- He is the Mighty, the Wise" (3:62)

I could go on with more examples, but as those familiar with the Qur'an know, this is emphasized so many times I think three examples will suffice.


In Christianity, the Bible is the most sacred book (correct me if I'm wrong). And Christianity's most fundamental belief is: Jesus is God (or the divine son of God). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Since the Bible is the book you rely on the most, it must be where the basis from which your faith comes, correct? If that is true, then the Bible must explicitly spell out this fundamental tenent of your religion.

I provided you three examples of where the Qur'an clearly describes the nature and Oneness of God, which is in accordance with our beliefs. Now please, can a Christian give me three examples where the Bible clearly describes the nature of God in Christianity?

My goal here is to understand how and why Christians believe what they do, and I hope that you can help me do that. Thank you.

[rpwelton]

OK I'm a noob and posted this in the wrong section. Can a mod please move it to Comparative Religion?

JAK

[Keltoi]

To show all the descriptions of God in the Bible would take quite awhile. I will just list some of them.

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." Psalm 90:2

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."1 Timothy 1:17

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” -Isaiah 43:10

”The word became flesh and lived for a while among us." -John 1:1 & 14:1

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." -Philippians 2:5-8

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." -Acts 5:3-4

So taking these verses, and of course all those that I didn't post, the concept of the Trinity is apparent. There is God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are God. That is where the doctrine comes from and that is why it exists.

[TrueStranger]

[QUOTE=Keltoi;1021902]”The word became flesh and lived for a while among us." -John 1:1 & 14:1

Verily His command, whenever He wills something is that He says unto it 'Be', then it is. (Ya-Sin, 36:82)

As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; for God does not love evildoers.

" This is what we rehearse unto you (O Muhammad) of the Sign and the message of Wisdom.

Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "BE!" - and he was.

(This is) the truth from your Lord; be not, then, among the doubters!.

[3:52-60]

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[buddy1]

In my personal opinion, being christened but not brought up to follow my religion and only taught basics at school, that christianity has been quite a brutal religion in ways, (just my opinion and not wanting an arguement) I tend to learn most about the religions I take an interest to by watching tv programs, which is probably asking for trouble, (passion of the christ a good start) there are so many branches in Christianty and it get very confusing, I personally find alot of things quite disturbing, for example, Corpus Christi, some wear barbed leg bands which are place at the top of the leg and tightened, this is to feel how jesus felt with a crown of thorns I beleive. they also believe that if they sin, they must punish their selves, this is seen in the Davinchi Code, the guy in it whips him self infront of the cross across his back until he can barely stand because he has sinned. Catholics go to confession!?

I know the davinci code has cause so much outrage throughout the christian comunity, but maybe if evrybody watches they will see a very valid point being made and questionable doubt. its very strange and it takes real patience, sometimes even a second watch, but i would definately reccomend it!

I hope I havent offended anyone with my lack of knowledge, I simply pass on what I have learnt!

[Keltoi]

In my personal opinion, being christened but not brought up to follow my religion and only taught basics at school, that christianity has been quite a brutal religion in ways, (just my opinion and not wanting an arguement) I tend to learn most about the religions I take an interest to by watching tv programs, which is probably asking for trouble, (passion of the christ a good start) there are so many branches in Christianty and it get very confusing, I personally find alot of things quite disturbing, for example, Corpus Christi, some wear barbed leg bands which are place at the top of the leg and tightened, this is to feel how jesus felt with a crown of thorns I beleive. they also believe that if they sin, they must punish their selves, this is seen in the Davinchi Code, the guy in it whips him self infront of the cross across his back until he can barely stand because he has sinned. Catholics go to confession!?

I know the davinci code has cause so much outrage throughout the christian comunity, but maybe if evrybody watches they will see a very valid point being made and questionable doubt. its very strange and it takes real patience, sometimes even a second watch, but i would definately reccomend it!

I hope I havent offended anyone with my lack of knowledge, I simply pass on what I have learnt!

Self-flagellation, or "mortification of the flesh" was a rare practice among Catholic monastic groups. The Catholic Church even condemned a group of monks known, strangely enough, as the Flagellants. It is quite rare.

As for the Davinci Code, it is fiction. A novel of fiction. Nothing less and nothing more.

[Grace Seeker]

In Christianity, the Bible is the most sacred book (correct me if I'm wrong).

True.

And Christianity's most fundamental belief is: Jesus is God (or the divine son of God). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong.

Since the Bible is the book you rely on the most, it must be where the basis from which your faith comes, correct?

Incorrect.

My goal here is to understand how and why Christians believe what they do, and I hope that you can help me do that. Thank you.

I hope it help that, as you asked, I corrected some of those things which you believed about Chrsitianity that are in fact not true.

[coddles76]

True.


Quote:
And Christianity's most fundamental belief is: Jesus is God (or the divine son of God). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong.


I hope it help that, as you asked, I corrected some of those things which you believed about Chrsitianity that are in fact not true.

And how is that wrong?? Your Fellow Christian faithful Keltoi just stated that it is correct.
So in other words you don't believe Jesus is God Incarnate? If thats the case your closer to becoming a muslim and I congratulate you on that.

[Keltoi]

And how is that wrong?? Your Fellow Christian faithful Keltoi just stated that it is correct.
So in other words you don't believe Jesus is God Incarnate? If thats the case your closer to becoming a muslim and I congratulate you on that.

That wasn't the question. You stated that Christ's divinity was the fundamental element of Christianity. That is false. The fundamental element is salvation through Christ.

[Anette]

The Qur'an is a Book of guidance, a Book of Law, and most importantly, a Book of faith. As Muslims, we derive the most fundamental tenant of our religion from this Book, and that is: There is no god but Allah.

Muslims read their holy book much more literal then Christian does, I think it is the main difference. Very few Christians in my country can recite the Bible and instead we are living by common Christian values (or should I say human values) like "love one's neighbour like you love yourself". More common guidlines, not literaly.

In Christianity, the Bible is the most sacred book (correct me if I'm wrong). And Christianity's most fundamental belief is: Jesus is God (or the divine son of God). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

I will not say it is the most fundamental belief. Personally (and you can have a personal view on your religion as a Christian) God is the one I pray to, I never pray to the Holy Spirit or Jesus. It is a second self av God; God everywhere (the spirit) and God amongs us (in Jesus).

Since the Bible is the book you rely on the most, it must be where the basis from which your faith comes, correct? If that is true, then the Bible must explicitly spell out this fundamental tenent of your religion.

Yes it is correct - the basis from our faith comes from the Bible. But we do not read the Bible literal. You can read and decide what different parts you want to incoporate in your life. It is between you and God.

My goal here is to understand how and why Christians believe what they do, and I hope that you can help me do that. Thank you.

I do not think that you will get only one answer to this question because every one has their own personal relationship to God. It's a matter of personal interpretation. Every religion has some one who interpretate the written words, in our case you can do it yourself (with help of priests some times).

I do not know if my answer will make you understand better, or become more confused :)

[Follower]

I try to rely on the Bible in every day life. The Old Testament most often shows why we need to follow GOD's Law in our life, the consequences, why we need Jesus. The New Testament shows us how to live everyday life.

The whole Bible leads up to the gift of Grace from GOD - salvation through Jesus. This is what Christianity is about, GOD loves us.

The Holy Spirit is very active in the Christians life-IF we stop and listen to Him!!

Yes people attending the very same church often have varying beliefs on certain points of faith and the Bible. Thankfully we have moved past requiring each member of Christianty to understand all of Christianity the same. Each is a different celebration of their faith.

[The Khan]

Thankfully we have moved past requiring each member of Christianty to understand all of Christianity the same. Each is a different celebration of their faith.

That's what I admire about Christians. An almost unanimous majority of Christians have overcome these obstacles. I pray the day when that happens with us Muslims will not be far away.

[rpwelton]

I think I just became more confused about Christianity.

I understand that salvation through Jesus (as) is the key belief, but if Jesus (as) is not divine, then is that still possible?

If not, then the two go hand-in-hand. Just like how in order to be a Muslim you have to believe that God is One with no partners AND believe Muhammad is his last messenger.

So belief in divinity cannot be subservient to belief in salvation through Christ. This is because you need to believe in both simultaneously in order to be a Christian.

Therefore, like Islam, Christianity has a "twin-proclamation" of faith.

Now is THAT correct?

[Grace Seeker]

And how is that wrong?? Your Fellow Christian faithful Keltoi just stated that it is correct.
So in other words you don't believe Jesus is God Incarnate? If thats the case your closer to becoming a muslim and I congratulate you on that.

I do believe that Jesus is God incarnate, but that is not what you said earlier. You said:

And Christianity's most fundamental belief is: Jesus is God (or the divine son of God). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

And on that point you are wrong, that is not Christianity's most fundamental belief.

Be careful you understand what you are saying when you say "Jesus is God incarnate", even that is not necessarily the same as saying "Jesus is God" or saying "Jesus is the divine son of God". I believe that each of these is in fact a true statement, but they are not identical statements and none of them are the most fundamental belief of Christianity. I believe that the most fundamental belief in Christianity is that in Jesus Christ, God himself entered the world to redeem humanity from our fallen nature and restores us to fellowship with himself once again.


As I have tried to provide you an explanation for disagreeing with your one assessment of Christianity, let me also continue with the other comment that I disagreed with, when you said:

Since the Bible is the book you rely on the most, it must be where the basis from which your faith comes, correct?

While we do rely on the bible, it is not the basis of our faith. The basis of our faith comes out of a personal encounter with Jesus. Note that Peter, John, Stephen, James, Paul, Barnabbas, Timothy, Silas, Luke, Apollos, Priscilla (the list goes on) were all Christians before one letter of the New Testament was written. Creeds were written and baptisms were done in the name of Jesus long before our present Bible was in existence. In other words, Christianity predates the Bible that Christian use, therefore it cannot be that the book is the basis for the faith, rather it is a product of the faith recroding what Christians understood to be true regarding their encounter with God in and through Jesus Christ and which, because they did write it down, they have passed on to us.

[Follower]

Here is a rough outline of when the different "books/letters" were written:

Old Testament
c. 2166 to c. 1876 Job
c. 1446 to c. 1406 Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
c. 1406 to c. 1050 Joshua, Judges
c. 1050 to c. 931 Ruth, Samuel, Psalms, Song of Solomon, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes
c. 875 Obadiah, Joel
c. 790 Jonah, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, Micah
c. 732 to c. 726 Nahum, Zephaniah
c. 640 Jeremiah, Lamentations, Habakkuk, Kings, Daniel, Ezekial
c. 586 to c. 538 Haggai, Zechariah
c. 458 Chronicles, Ezra, Esther
c. 444 Nehemiah, Malachi

New Testament
c. 50 I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians,
c. 53 Galatians
c. 55 Romans, I Corinthians,
c. 57 II Corinthians, James (40 - 60 A.D.)
c. 60 Mark, Luke, John, Colossians, Ephesians, Philippians, Philemon
c. 62 I Timothy, II Timothy, Acts, Titus,
c. 64 I Peter
c. 66 II Peter
c. 68 to 80 Hebrews
c. 90 I John, II John, III John, Jude
c. 95 Revelation

[coddles76]

I do believe that Jesus is God incarnate, but that is not what you said earlier. You said: And on that point you are wrong, that is not Christianity's most fundamental belief.

Be careful you understand what you are saying when you say "Jesus is God incarnate", even that is not necessarily the same as saying "Jesus is God" or saying "Jesus is the divine son of God". I believe that each of these is in fact a true statement, but they are not identical statements and none of them are the most fundamental belief of Christianity. I believe that the most fundamental belief in Christianity is that in Jesus Christ, God himself entered the world to redeem humanity from our fallen nature and restores us to fellowship with himself once again.

And this is the problem many people have with christianity, I Can understand how you cannot seem to fathom how illogical that statement above sounds Because Allah SWT has already gave us an explanation on misguidance. And your statement above is why many people around the world are leaving the branches of christianity and entering the Logical and true beliefs of Islam.

[Follower]

So if you have the Torah then the Quran is not needed?