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- Qatada -
10-09-2008, 04:37 PM
:salamext:


I don't want this thread for any debate. It's for reference to Muslims.

The word "idribuhuna" does not mean to beat up the wife.
It means to hit her lightly (avoiding the face because hitting the face is forbidden in Islam) a hitting that is ghayr mubarrih, which does not cause harm to the body, like bruising or breaking a bone.


Ata' said: "I asked Ibn Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?' He replied: '[With] the siwak and the like'." Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir. (probably on the tafsir of this verse itself [4:34]




http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/speed2kx/256498233_b9c5b8ddf3_o.jpg


And this is the last resort for the husband.


You [the Muslim] argue that if tafsir and understanding of Qur'an [according to the understanding of the companions is required for all other rules such as salah, hajj, and even fighting fi sabilillah, then so is it equally important to follow their interpretation of these matters - since they are also part of the Qur'an]

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- Qatada -
10-09-2008, 04:39 PM
Some people may be confused over this hadith;


Look at the following narration...

Saheeh Muslim
Book 004, Number 2127:

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.


Can someone explain this to me please?

The arabic word, which has been used in the hadith is " لهدني ". this is a word which means pushing with a full hand.

(broken down in single letters " له د ن ي " ) [lahdany?]


keep in mind, this is a type of teaching not harming so it is not considered as hitting as it is precieved in accordance with nowadays people understanding.

wallahu A'lam
Reply

- Qatada -
10-09-2008, 04:40 PM
The following hadith comes directly from Aisha herself when she refutes those who say that the Messenger of Allah hit her (in the above mentioned hadith):


`A'ishah said,"The Messenger of Allah never struck a servant of his with his hand, nor did he ever hit a woman. He never hit anything with his hand, except for when he was fighting Jihad in the cause of Allah. And he was never given the option between two things except that the most beloved of the two to him was the easiest of them, as long as it did not involve sin. If it did involve sin, then he stayed farther away from sin than any of the people. He would not avenge himself concerning anything that was done to him, except if the limits of Allah were transgressed. Then, in that case he would avenge for the sake of Allah.'' Imam Ahmad also recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allah said,

«إِنَّمَا بُعِثْتُ لِأُتَمِّمَ صَالِحَ الْأَخْلَاق»

(I have only been sent to perfect righteous behavior.)


Tafsir ibn Kathir - Surah Qalam (68)
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=68&tid=54734
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- Qatada -
10-09-2008, 04:41 PM
http://idawah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=871
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ASeeker
10-09-2008, 05:19 PM
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?
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FatimaAsSideqah
10-09-2008, 05:29 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Alhamdulillah. Jazaak'Allah Khair akhi for more clarify.
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Muezzin
10-09-2008, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?
If we take 'hit' to mean 'to palm' or 'to touch with a toothbrush-stick'.
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- Qatada -
10-09-2008, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?

its a psychological thing to show the wife that he's not happy if she's not acting in good terms, i.e. maybe she's acting weird infront of stranger guys or something.


anyway, read bro ansar's posts in this thread

womens rights;
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post305540
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post589979
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post590471

what is meant by indecency on the wife's part:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post590783
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post591600
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post592106

some rules in regard to it;
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post592835
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post593004


and just continue reading the thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...beating-8.html
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- Qatada -
10-09-2008, 05:44 PM
it is also important to note that the woman that is hit lightly is not just a woman who does not cook or clean etc. It is concerning a wife who is lewd or doing unislamic acts (wearing halter top showing some cleavage infront of stranger guys) etc.. And it goes in steps. First admonishing her (advising her) second forsake her in bed (dontsleep with her so she knows that you are serious and that she needs Islah or reformation) and then a final stop to hit her lightly in a way that doesnt leave a mark! [i.e. with a tiny stick]
Reply

doorster
10-09-2008, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?
depends on who translates the texts, in my familiy's version, you do not beat first last or ever!. I can post backing from many real life educated Muslim scholars but that would only upset the net mullahs and their backing teams of net warriors.
I don't want this thread for any debate. It's for reference to Muslims.
why did you not get it locked then?
And this is the last resort for the husband
I thought that last resort was divorce
he word "idribuhuna" does not mean to beat up the wife.
It means to hit her lightly (avoiding the face because hitting the face is forbidden in Islam) a hitting that is ghayr mubarrih, which does not cause harm to the body, like bruising or breaking a bone.
I can see no difference and God forbid, if this translation is correct then it contradicts Prophet's sayings which are classed as Sahih (authentic)

and No correct translation of Quraan contradicts the Sahih Ahadees

wasalam

it is important to keep in mind that any time we discover something in the answers to actually be better than what we already have, we should be committed to change our position and accept that which is true over that which is false and take that which is better for that which is inferior.
Reply

NYCmuslim
10-09-2008, 11:57 PM
:sl:

I hope you know that the arabic root of the word "idriboohunna" ( ض ر ب), has multiple meanings which include to strike, travel, admonish, and/or avoid. This is something that should be considered when translating a word in the context of how the Quran talks about the relationship between the husband and wife in other verses.

Peace
:w:
Reply

جوري
10-10-2008, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?
only in Christianity is demeaning a woman allowed by 'divine' decree..

pls allow me

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."


so go home and keep your woman in her place he man, and lock your trailer doors, there are Muslims out there and they are a coming ;D

cheers
Reply

جوري
10-10-2008, 12:18 AM
Wife beating?
we should live by prophet Mohammed's example, while interpreting correctly the Quran --"Never beat God's handmaidens."
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

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Author:
Br. Estes

RasulAllah P.B.U.H. Said:
"Never beat God's handmaidens."
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"


Question:
Could you please tell me why the Quran tells men to "beat them" meaning their wives? (chapter 4, verse 34)

Answer:
Thank you for asking about Islam. It is our committment to try our best to provide answers to questions to the best of our ability. However, sometimes we come across questions for which we do not have answers. In this case we will refer you to others who may be able to provide you with proper answers.

Please be aware that we as Muslims, must never lie about anything, especially our religion.

Secondly, we do have the original text of the Quran and the preserved teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him. This enables us to verify exactly what was said, intended and taught by Muhammad, peace be upon him, as being the religion of Islam.

Third, I would like to remind myself and all who read this in the future that not all questions are purely questions. Some contain statements and implications, that may or may not be true.

Finally, it is important to keep in mind anytime we discover something in the answers to actually be better than what we already have, we should be committed to change our position and accept that which is true over that which is false and take that which is better for that which is inferior.

After taking all of the above into consideration, if we find that the answer to this question provides us with a better approach to understanding what Almighty God has provided us with as a way of life on this earth and in the Next Life, we should then make the logical decsion to begin to worship Him on His terms.

Having said that, let us now look to the particular verse in question in the original text (Arabic), followed by the phonetic sounds in Latin letters and then finally, followed by a translation of the meaning to the English language by experts in both Arabic and in Quranic meanings.




Transliteration
Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisa-i bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran

Explanation (tafsir) of Sura 4:34
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding the woman who is guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Meaning of the Words
For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here ‘speak to them in a persuasive manner’, ‘leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),’ and ‘have intercourse’, respectively, see Raghib Lisan al-'Arab and Zamakhsari. Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qur'an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. Fa-'izu, he says, means to 'to talk to them so persuasively as to melt their hearts.'
(See also v.63 of this Surah where it has been used in a similar sense.)
Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or moleste them)
Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding women guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Let me begin by explaining the English language is not powerful enough when it comes to translating the meanings of the Arabic of the Quran. Nor for that matter, is any other language on earth. So, all we have is translations of meanings according to the best understanding of the translators.

The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning. Let us examine them.

Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:
Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat)

Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, 'the stud camel covered the she-camel,' which is also quoted by Lisan al-'Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)
One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:
Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala “Thus Allah sets forth a parable”
[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]
Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”
And again in the next verse: Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi
“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]
Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi
“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
Surah Ar-Rum (30:28) Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum
“He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”
Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”
In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.
The words for (beat) as in [to hit] found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."

As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).
Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behavior. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.

The first part of 34 deals with all men taking care of all women. Then goes on to explain the wife's proper obedience to Allah because He is the One Who has ordained this relationship of provision and protection for her and to be appreciative and respectful of her husband, guarding herself and his property in his absence. The man is told the proper way to behave when he finds his wife not complying with decency and proper behavior of a Muslim wife. He has a direct order to begin with admonishing her and then if there is compliance to leave her be and don't give her a hard time about it.

However, if this continues, he should not have sex with her and this makes it clear to her that he is most serious and this not a joke. Again, if she comes around then he is to let it go and not bother her about it. Finally, if she still insists on such lewdness and bad conduct, he is to make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that they are going to be heading for separation or even divorce unless she comes back to proper behavior. Again, if she complies, then he should not bring it up and return to the bed with her.
And of course, this is all in an effort to translate one short but powerful phrase from Arabic to English. The sources are quoted herein and there may be other interpretations but the only acceptable ones are those based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.
And as always, Allahu 'Alim (Allah is the Knower)

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari as mentioned above and those who are well grounded in both Islam understanding and the English language.
34.
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.
The understanding now is that some of the translations are not properly representing the spirit of the meaning. Therefore, they cannot be considered to be the representation of what has been intended by Almighty God.

Now we can properly understand that Almighty God has commanded the men to provide for the women and allow them to keep all of their wealth, inheritance and income without demanding anything from them for support and maintenance. Additionally, if she should be guilty of lewd or indecent conduct, the husband is told to first, admonish her and then if she would cease this lewdness. If she should continue in this indecency, then he should no longer share the bed with her, and this would continue for a period of time. Finally, if she would repent then he would take up sharing the bed with her again.

And Allah is All Knowing of the meanings.
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post711125
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doorster
10-10-2008, 12:26 AM
jazakum Allah Khairan, Sr. Skye and Br. NYCmuslim

:w:
Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)

One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:

Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala “Thus Allah sets forth a parable”[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]

Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”And again in the next verse:

Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]

Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”

Surah Ar-Rum (30:28) Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum “He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”

Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”

In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.

The words for (beat) as in [to hit] is found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."

As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).
Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behaviour. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.
Reply

alcurad
10-10-2008, 01:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
jazakum Allah Khairan, Sr. Skye and Br. NYCmuslim

wa salaam alaikum
and Br.Qatada and Br.doorster:)
but this issue has been brought up so many times and answered...
Reply

ASeeker
10-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Phew! So can we take it that a Muslim man is permitted to beat his wife as long as he doesn't leave any signs of damage to her body? In the interests of equality, is the woman permitted to beat her husband if he behaves badly?
Reply

جوري
10-10-2008, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
Phew! So can we take it that a Muslim man is permitted to beat his wife as long as he doesn't leave any signs of damage to her body? In the interests of equality, is the woman permitted to beat her husband if he behaves badly?
it will do you some good to read more and yap less-- considering if you scroll in the previous page, you'll see that you shouldn't-- contrast with Christianity also quoted in the previous page. so scurry to your trailer and do your thing with your charwoman as per paul's advisement!

cheers
Reply

MartyrX
10-10-2008, 10:46 PM
The man isn't here to learn, but to try and incite us.

I say we don't feed the trolls.
Reply

جوري
10-10-2008, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JeffX
The man isn't here to learn, but to try and incite us.

I say we don't feed the trolls.
It would be true, if he presented some sort of challenge.. but he is an under-educated moron!

:w:
Reply

doorster
10-11-2008, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?
  1. http://www.islamicboard.com/1021933-post10.html
  2. http://www.islamicboard.com/1022156-post11.html
  3. http://www.islamicboard.com/1022161-post13.html

format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
Phew! So can we take it that a Muslim man is permitted to beat his wife as long as he doesn't leave any signs of damage to her body? In the interests of equality, is the woman permitted to beat her husband if he behaves badly?
either you are blind or the moderators are
Reply

Faye
10-11-2008, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:salamext:


I don't want this thread for any debate. It's for reference to Muslims.
The word "idribuhuna" does not mean to beat up the wife.
It means to hit her lightly (avoiding the face because hitting the face is forbidden in Islam) a hitting that is ghayr mubarrih, which does not cause harm to the body, like bruising or breaking a bone.


Ata' said: "I asked Ibn Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?' He replied: '[With] the siwak and the like'." Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir. (probably on the tafsir of this verse itself [4:34]




http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/speed2kx/256498233_b9c5b8ddf3_o.jpg


And this is the last resort for the husband.


You [the Muslim] argue that if tafsir and understanding of Qur'an [according to the understanding of the companions is required for all other rules such as salah, hajj, and even fighting fi sabilillah, then so is it equally important to follow their interpretation of these matters - since they are also part of the Qur'an]

You can cause major pain with a siwak, and serious bruises (leaving marks for up to a week), though breaking bones might be difficult. Take it from on who has experienced it.
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- Qatada -
10-11-2008, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faye
You can cause major pain with a siwak, and serious bruises (leaving marks for up to a week), though breaking bones might be difficult. Take it from on who has experienced it.

:salamext:


But islam does not permit that he bruise her. So whoever did that, they did the wrong thing.

Besides, there is no law even in 'civilised' Europe, which forbids a man from touching or tapping a woman with a pen, and if she took it to court - i don't think she'd win the case. However, if he bruised her with a pen - then he may have gone past the limit [and he will have done so in Islam]. And he can be taken to court so the woman can get justice.
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Faye
10-11-2008, 01:08 PM
A question, do you think if reasoning with your wife, and leaving her bed doesn't work, tapping her with a pen will?
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- Qatada -
10-11-2008, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faye
A question, do you think if reasoning with your wife, and leaving her bed doesn't work, tapping her with a pen will?

It could be an implication for her that this is his last step, and that if she persists in wrong doing, then he may divorce her or separate with her. Why will she think that he's implying this by the tap of a stick? Because she will also know that this is the last step mentioned in the Qur'an.

Imagine traffic lights, red is the first step, amber is the second, and tapping with the siwak is the 3rd. If he reaches the third step, she'll be aware that if she doesn't stop - he will move forward (i.e. maybe in divorce.)
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The Khan
10-11-2008, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker
So can we take it that it is permitted for a Muslim man to hit a woman?
My brothers have answered your question even prior to your post, brother in humanity.

As for the bible, it does not mention wife beating, but it does mention beating children and slaves to the point of beating them to near death.

Proverbs 23: 13-14
"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with a rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

Exodus 21: 20-21
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

Hope my post was of some understanding.
Reply

Woodrow
10-11-2008, 10:25 PM

:w:

Do not b e so harsh Dear Akhi. It is seen and being thought over.


Many non-Muslims honestly do believe Muslim men are allowed and even encouraged to beat their wives. Although this topic has been discussed many times, this may be a good time to bring it to a final conclusion, by addressing the concerns of one who believes we beat our women.

One problem is many non-Muslims do not understand Arabic or even the common thoughts of the mid-east. Much of the richness and fullness of the language and the people is lost in translation.

The words that would express the meaning are not found in English and to explain in English would not be the words of the Qur'an.

To use an analogy it is more like saying:

Is it permissible to beat a wife?

Only if you do so with a tiny feather and cause no pain or harm.

In other words a friendly way of saying, it is not permitted to BEAT a wife.
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doorster
10-12-2008, 06:05 AM
:thumbs_up^^ wa alaikum salaam and jazakallah khair! for replying. I am grateful for any help I can get to put my thoughts in to (English) words.
format_quote Originally Posted by Faye
A question, do you think if reasoning with your wife, and leaving her bed doesn't work, tapping her with a pen will?
spot on!!!
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Malaikah
10-12-2008, 07:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Is it permissible to beat a wife?

Only if you do so with a tiny feather and cause no pain or harm.

In other words a friendly way of saying, it is not permitted to BEAT a wife.
Exactly! It makes no sense to me why people use the word BEAT! There is no such thing as beating a person without leaving a mark or causing damage or hitting hard!

The very definition of beat implies that it is a very serious way of hitting someone that causes lots of pain and damage!
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SixTen
10-12-2008, 10:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
It could be an implication for her that this is his last step, and that if she persists in wrong doing, then he may divorce her or separate with her. Why will she think that he's implying this by the tap of a stick? Because she will also know that this is the last step mentioned in the Qur'an.

Imagine traffic lights, red is the first step, amber is the second, and tapping with the siwak is the 3rd. If he reaches the third step, she'll be aware that if she doesn't stop - he will move forward (i.e. maybe in divorce.)
Hmm, it must be a serious fight, if it leads to the silent treatment/not sharing bed. I mean, if things really did escelate, would someone just go pick up a feather/thin stick to hit the woman with?

What I mean is, the siwak seems so minor, is it really like a last stage? Or, are people underplaying what is allowed, as the verse has stated? Like, lets take the tafsir of Al-Jalalayn.

Men are in charge of, they have authority over, women, disciplining them and keeping them in check, because of that with which God has preferred the one over the other, that is, because God has given them the advantage over women, in knowledge, reason, authority and otherwise, and because of what they expend, on them [the women], of their property. Therefore righteous women, among them, are obedient, to their husbands, guarding in the unseen, that is, [guarding] their private parts and otherwise during their spouses’ absence, because of what God has guarded, for them, when He enjoined their male spouses to look after them well. And those you fear may be rebellious, disobedient to you, when such signs appear, admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds]. If they then obey you, in what is desired from them, do not seek a way against them, a reason to strike them unjustly. God is ever High, Great, so beware of Him, lest He punish you for treating them unjustly.
It states strike, but not violently. I would have got the impression, as stated its not violent, but maybe that it is more severe then a tap with a siwak? I remember once a scholar using the analogy that why westerners complain, when nearly in all their drama's, it has the man somtimes slapping the woman across the face - in which they both succumb/say their sorries etc. In Ibn Abbas' version, it talks of scourging them, but not exaggeratedly.

So, are these just bad translations or - is something more than a tap of a siwak allowed, with the restriction that it should not go overboard/violent/exaggerated? Jazakallah Khair for replies.
Reply

Thinker
10-12-2008, 10:42 AM
When I first joined this forum I asked question about issues like this and commonly got replies along the lines of "not again, this has been discussed before;" I could almost hear the groans. Is it not he case that these issues continue to be raised because there is no concensus amongst scholars and if there is consensus should they not (for the good of Islam) make that consensus view absolutely clear to those who raise these questions?
Reply

SixTen
10-12-2008, 10:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
When I first joined this forum I asked question about issues like this and commonly got replies along the lines of "not again, this has been discussed before;" I could almost hear the groans. Is it not he case that these issues continue to be raised because there is no concensus amongst scholars and if there is consensus should they not (for the good of Islam) make that consensus view absolutely clear to those who raise these questions?
The different opinions, usually have a consensus of their own - depending on their methodology/school, if you know what I mean. Hence, in a lot of issues, don't expect everyone to give the same opinion - as not everyone concludes in the same way.
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SixTen
10-13-2008, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
I will,only if you first read quoted text in this >> http://www.islamicboard.com/1025036-post37.html and comment on it
Yes I read it. However, I do not agree with its logic. You say, it has only ever been described as beat (be it strike/hit whatever) in this verse. But, tht is allowed, it need not be used in the same manner in other parts. I do not accept that the verse mens, getting arbritaries to reconcile the matter, simply because it contradicts what many scholars and many tafsirs state. None of them talk of anything as such, infact, can you give the source of your post? I doubt its an authentic viewpoint.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-13-2008, 12:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
In a fun way of speaking my point is:

I can not find anything in either the Qur'an or Ahadeeth that justifies the beating of a woman.

In my personal opinion any man who does so deserves what ever he gets for doing so.
we dont need personal opinions here which contradict Quran

uncle you have saddenned me :(




The ayyah clearly states a woman may be beaten BUT NOT VIOLENTLY and men are going to be dealt with by Allah for any injustice they deal !

what more needs to be said?


and whats all this about beating with a feather? the ayyah states we may beat them as a last resort, not tickle them as a last resort!
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SixTen
10-13-2008, 01:36 PM
I would like to give a scholarly opinion on the issue, by Umm Saleh

I have found that the majority of scholars have interpreted this as permission for men to discipline their wives who have become "nashiz," which means rebellious, recalcitrant, or lewd. This permission is not a general permission to discipline the wife whenever the husband feels like it, but rather is meant for women who act out in very specific circumstances and threaten the harmony of the marriage. Furthermore, it is a permission granted by Allah to men. It is not a right or privilege. Scholars have also placed limits on what form this discipline takes. The husband is only allowed to use his hand or the equivalent of a miswak, a tooth-stick. Furthermore, he may not strike in anger, beat, bruise, or harm his wife. Rather, he gives her a symbolical tap with this very light object. He may not strike her face or any other delicate part of the body. And once again, this is permission, meaning he does not have to do this, but is merely allowed if circumstances warrant.


Before he disciplines his wife, he is required to take other measures. Note how the Qur'an commands men to first talk to their wives and persuade them with kind, wise words. Then if that fails, he is allowed to forsake marital intimacy, that is, sexual intercourse, as a way to make the wife understand the seriousness of her actions. Finally, he is allowed to physically discipline her, but only within the above-mentioned limits. Scholars also say that if he knows that physical discipline will not achieve anything, he should not pursue it. And scholars also caution men to look at the example of the Prophet, peace be upon him. It is a well known fact that the Best of all Creation, upon whom be peace, never hit his wives.


This permission for a man to discipline his wife is something which men should not take lightly. If this discipline results in any physical or emotional harm to the wife, it is unlawful for the husband to continue. Both husband and wife should be able to sit down and discuss the problem as adults. The fact that problems between husband and wife escalate into physical confrontations is something we as a community need to address.


The Islamic paradigm for marriage is one of love, mercy, and mutual respect, not violence, fighting, and hatred.
According to this opinion, you are not restricted to the use of a siwak/feather, but may use his hand too.
Reply

Woodrow
10-13-2008, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
we dont need personal opinions here which contradict Quran

uncle you have saddenned me :(




The ayyah clearly states a woman may be beaten BUT NOT VIOLENTLY and men are going to be dealt with by Allah for any injustice they deal !

what more needs to be said?


and whats all this about beating with a feather? the ayyah states we may beat them as a last resort, not tickle them as a last resort!
:w:

An analogy as many here do not know what a miswak is and that it is no more of a weapon than any small light weight object.

It is my opinion that a man deserves to get what ever he gets as a result of his actions.

I still can not see any place in the Qur'an where the beating of a woman is ever justified. Beating consists of very violent hitting, with the intent to cause damage.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-13-2008, 02:07 PM
^ if you read the tafseer al-jalalayn it says "non violent", i mean ive even beaten naughty nephews lightly when they wouldnt listen to *snap them out of it* and it works, but neva hav i made them hate me, or even dislike me, or left a mark.
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SixTen
10-13-2008, 02:12 PM
EDIT: Admin Removed off topic comment

And brother Woodrow, I think all that he implied was, that light hitting was allowed in more ways than just a feather or siwaak - that is - with the hand too. Some of the posts are confusing in that, they portray, a man may only hit his wife (non violently be it may) with a siwak or a feather, which isn't true. Although you may do so with a siwak/feather, no dispute in that, it is not the only permissable way. Somtimes, some rules/laws may seem strange to us, due to how society brings us up - but we should not try mould the teachings of Islam to the moral ethics we were brought up with, we should stick strictly to what is allowed as intended - even if it means somthing that society will not accept.

And Allah knows best.
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Woodrow
10-13-2008, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ if you read the tafseer al-jalalayn it says "non violent", i mean ive even beaten naughty nephews lightly when they wouldnt listen to *snap them out of it* and it works, but neva hav i made them hate me, or even dislike me, or left a mark.
That is true. The problem comes from translation. The word "beat" in English carries a very strong connotation of physical violence. Seems to be "beat" is the wrong word for an accurate translation.
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aamirsaab
10-13-2008, 04:38 PM
:sl:
You know, I really don't understand why so many people isolate verses from the Qur'an. You know, just in general.

If Islam was about beating the crap out of your wife, then what does that hadith of Jannat being at the feet of your mother mean?! It's the exact same line of argument that certain idiotas use when isolating other verses (such as killing people, not taking non-muslims as friends etc).

My view on surah 4 verse 34 is simple: an extreme case, It's like saying; look, if your wife has done xyz, then you admonish her, then don't sleep with her and (if she persists) then you're allowed to get ''physical''. But, that's like 0.5% possibility of it occuring (provided one is practicing Islam and treating ones wife with the utmost respect!).

Oh well, enough ranting, I'm oot.
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bewildred
10-13-2008, 04:39 PM
The problem is not in the translation of the word "beat". It's in how men conceive their way of mistreating their wives or sisters. Beating has become so ordinary that they don't even think it's bad or unlawful. The worse of it is that they use verses of Quran to justify their beating.
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barney
10-13-2008, 04:47 PM
The feet of the mother is a lovely hadith, but a wife has a different status to the mother.

I remember reading, dunno if its true, that the beating is only for matters where she is doing something unislamic? Rather than not washing up.
Might be wrong.
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doorster
10-13-2008, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
The feet of the mother is a lovely hadith, but a wife has a different status to the mother.

I remember reading, dunno if its true, that the beating is only for matters where she is doing something unislamic? Rather than not washing up.
Might be wrong.
The feet of the mother is a lovely hadith
I do not think that to be an authentic hadees at all

but these are:

  • "Never beat God's handmaidens."
  • "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

Regardless of the various positions and opinions, there is no permission established through the teachings of the Quran or the Sunnah (way) of Muhammad, peace be upon him, wherein one person could "beat" another person.
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TrueStranger
10-13-2008, 10:10 PM
:sl:

'He it is who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the book: others are allegorical, that is those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will grasp the message except men of understanding' (Al-Qur'an 3: 7).

Here muhkamat and mutashabihat are described as follows:

muhkama
:


Something of which knowledge was desired.
Something with only one dimension.
Something sufflcient in meaning, requiring no further explanation.


mutashabihat:


Something known to Allah only.
Something with more than one dimension.
Something requiring further explanation
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Muhammad
10-19-2008, 12:26 PM
Greetings,

There are a number of threads on this topic which one can read and gain an understanding of some degree. Rather than playing around with definitions and possible meanings that we can extract from our own opinions, I think the underlying concept is quite clear for anyone who wishes to know.

Firstly, Islam respects women, protects their dignity and protects them from mistreatment regardless of who the oppressor is. This ideal is clear to anyone who does so much as reads an English translation of the Qur'an, and there are numerous hadeeth which clearly command good treatment and kindness towards women, whether they are mothers or wives.

Secondly, Islam views the marriage as a sacred bond and as the verse outlines, there are steps one can take to save the marriage in cases where it is threatened. Clearly the last resort is not going to be to "tickle" one's wife as some have ridiculously supposed, neither is its purpose to harm her and cause physical damage, as would occur in wife battering. If we can understand these basic principles, and together with the meaning of Islam as a mercy to the world and all its teachings regarding justice, kindness, forgiveness and good treatment of women as mentioned above, there is no room left for misunderstanding on this topic. Regardless of whether the verse allows more than or less than a tap of the miswaak, we still know the oft-repeated principle that whatever it is, it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt.

If this much is clear for anyone with a bit of common sense, then there is no need to delve much further into the topic and become scholars of our own in deriving root meanings, alternative exegesis and the like.

Allaah (swt) deserves to be thanked for the guidance He has given mankind in dealing amongst themselves, and enlightening us through His infinite and perfect wisdom. He knows what is best for His creatures, and with this we place our full trust in all His perfect laws that He has enjoined upon us. If we really studied them and began to realise the truth behind them, the thought that the teachings were for some culture long ago would not even cross anyone's mind.

Thread closed.
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