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- Qatada -
10-10-2008, 05:35 PM
asalaam alaikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh


For generations after generations through out human history people have been marrying at the age of 9 and 10. By 16 they were old enough to lead an entire battalion! (i.e. usama ibn zayd [ibn harithah] - the companion) For thousands and thousands of years human beings did not regard early marriages to be hazardous. If early pregnancies were hazardous, surely the human civilisation across the planet and through out the history should have noticed a pattern. Something like that cannot be missed out or ignored for thousands upon thousands of years so easily.

On the other hand contemporary medicine is known to have changed its stance on various issues several times. In the 70s the mothers in England were being told NOT to breastfeed. And now, women who do not breastfeed are looked down on.



NOTE: This thread isn't intended for debate - just useful info. for Muslims or da'wah, so mods please delete unnecessary comments.


added by bro islamiclife:

Imam Ibn kathir (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates a hadith in his Al-Bidayah wa-Nihayah:
"Imam Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith which he heard from Farwa bin abi al-Mughria who heard from 'Ali bin Masher who heard from Hisham bin 'Urawh who heard from his father who reports from 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her), who said: 'When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was betrowth to me, I was six years old. Later, when we migrated from Makkah to Medina and satyed at bin harith bin khdhrj's place, I had grown up. My hair had got longer and I had physically matured; however, I still used to play with other girls...I was nine years old at that time."

Source Page 210-211
So our mother (May Allah be pleased with her) not only had reached puberty but she had also physically matured when the marriage was consumated.
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- Qatada -
10-10-2008, 05:35 PM
asalam alaikum again


i heard theres a hadith in abi dawud where Aisha herself mentions that a marriage wasn't consummated by arabs until only after a females menses - her menses signifying her adulthood.

Infact, the logic of these people is amazing because they themselves accuse 13yr olds, or 9yr olds of being children. Yet they themselves know that these 'children' are capable of having sex and even having children!


How is it possible that someone can have children and be a child? Their logic is confusing and they themselves throughout the different countries in the US, UK and Europe can't agree on a common age for adulthood. Try doing a little bit of research on this, but they differ - ranging from 13 till 18 - So does this mean that having sex in the Netherlands at 15 is peadophilia in the UK? Will anyone who follows the law of one nation be counted as a peadophile in another? Who's truly right?

The answers simple in Islam - if you're able to fulfill the duties of marriage, and are capable of it - then you can get married. However, if it will be harmful [and no-one can bring one shred of evidence that Aa'isha got harmed by her marriage, rather she benefited herself and billions of others in Islam (being in the top 5 narrators of ahadith), aswell as advancing in medicine studies] - which shows that she was perfectly normal and said nothing but good about the Prophet. Whereas a person abused would not praise their abuser willingly.



A 9yr old - young woman - with a child:



[these are just links to the image - incase people need it as a source]
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3821/thaigalhx9.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...thaigalhx9.jpg



If someone said that a 9yr old isn't capable of having children or sex;
I would quote the following fatwa from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:
As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.
And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:
The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.
So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam) said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر
"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)
And Allah knows best.
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- Qatada -
10-10-2008, 05:36 PM
Aisha was fit for marriage - she never even showed any negative symptoms at all - whether that was physical, psychological, emotional [infact this marriage was so much greater for her (making her of the most knowledgable women in our rich Islamic history, and she even excelled in medicine, teaching etc. at her times.] these people may make assumptions against Aisha's well being, but they have no proof whatsoever for what they say. And assumption is not used as an evidence for us in our religion, nor do they claim to accept it as a proof for their arguments.



remember guys, that the only thing we need to prove in a refutation is the case of Aa'isha. Since she was mature for marriage in all aspects - she was fit for it at that age, and that's why it occurred.

Other people will be judged accordingly, and independently based on if they are physically, mentally and emotionally ready for it. If they're not fit for it, they don't need to get married, and if there will be harm - then that marriage may be annulled.
Reply

Trumble
10-11-2008, 12:21 PM
I'm a little concerned about this.

I'm quite happy to accept, regarding Aisha, that the cultural standards were different at the time, and not just in Arabia. That's a non-issue. But...

Firstly, suggesting that "if you're able to fulfill the duties of marriage, and are capable of it - then you can get married" in the context of the modern world is just plain wrong. The obvious reason, of course is that you have no idea whatsoever whether someone is able and capable of fulfilling the duties of marriage (whatever they may be) until they actually try. A subsequent annulment, that may or may not happen, could not undo the damage. In Mohammed's time the luxury of waiting generally wasn't available; it is today.

Secondly, there is no basis whatsoever for denying someone is a 'child' just because they are capable of having sex and having children. None of the countries you list has an age of consent as low as nine, or anything like it .. and in places like Holland it is a recognition that kids of that age will inevitably experiment with sex, not some sort of social and moral approval that they do. It's a balance of setting the reality against what is morally desirable, and protecting 'young adults' from those who would exploit them. I would point out that in Holland the actual age you can get married is 18, except in very exceptional circumstances.

Whereas a person abused would not praise their abuser willingly
Thirdly, I strongly suggest you expand your research to cover some psychology. That statement is, sadly, complete nonsense.
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SixTen
10-11-2008, 12:27 PM
Although, I am not criticising the marriage of Aisha (ra) - in that he was a prophet and we can't compare, I don't think, as trumble argued, the arguements are really good to use.

Should stick to prophetic arguements imho (as some notable scholars do, rightfully).

I know you said no debate, but really, some of this is really bad dawah. Stuff like culturual norms is not a valid arguement, nor is it the reason the Prophet (saw) did it. A lot of things were cultural norms and were not allowed. Just because somthing he did was, doesn't mean he did it because it was cultural norm.

I only post this in that, people should be more careful as to what people teach others to use as dawah - as it can backfire pretty badly.
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- Qatada -
10-11-2008, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Thirdly, I strongly suggest you expand your research to cover some psychology. That statement is, sadly, complete nonsense.

You bring proof that Aisha was harmed through the marriage, and i'll look forward to the response. Otherwise, i'll wait till then.


SixTen, jazak Allah khayr - i'll keep that in mind. :)
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Snowflake
10-11-2008, 01:06 PM
I have a deep conviction that in the near future, pregnancies amongst youngsters will become so common they will be considered acceptable. The age of consent will lowered, thus changing the definition of paedophilia. And those who mocked the marriage of Aisha (ra) will be left wondering what went wrong.. or right.
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chacha_jalebi
10-11-2008, 01:15 PM
history shows us that, Hadhrat Aisha (ra) was the greatest female scholar, how could someone become a great scholar, have the confidence to even go to war, and in their child hood they had a bad experience, as a under qualified psychologist:p i know that childhood experiences shape a persons future, like behaviour thing, and the description of Hadhrat Aisha (ra) and her confidence and her relationship with the Prophet (Saw) shows us that she was probably the happiest woman in the world, when she was married to the Prophet (Saw)

and i pity the people who claim to "mock" islaam, by this marriage, because in the talmud there is talk of relationships with 3 year olds, so like they say, before you point your finger at someone remember your other fingers point back @ you, unless you point like a spastick :p

so back in the days people got married early, it was normal, in some countries people still do get married early, like the child groom and brides in many indian villages!

so let the haters hate, because they will soon face their fate :D
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The Khan
10-12-2008, 08:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
so back in the days people got married early, it was normal, in some countries people still do get married early, like the child groom and brides in many indian villages!

so let the haters hate, because they will soon face their fate :D
So true.

Modern laws make no sense. For example, in New York, a girl can get married when she's 14 with parental and judicial consent, but can't consummate the marriage until she's 16. What's up with that?

My great-grandmother was 11 years old when she got married and gave birth to her first child.
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Trumble
10-12-2008, 08:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
You bring proof that Aisha was harmed through the marriage, and i'll look forward to the response. Otherwise, i'll wait till then.
I have no need to 'bring proof' of anything. I am not claiming that Aisha was harmed through marriage; I thought I made it clear I was concerned about your remarks in a contemporary setting, not a historical one. ---

What I am, in fact, claiming is

"Whereas a person abused would not praise their abuser willingly"
is psychologically unsound... there are a great many cases where victims of abuse do just that. It therefore cannot be used as reliable evidence that abuse is not occurring, has not occurred, or did not occur in either a contemporary or historical context.
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Al-Zaara
10-12-2008, 09:49 AM
^ I have to agree with Trumble on this one, about the abusing issue. I have sadly seen cases of that exactly and read about it aswell. I do not think Trumble means any harm or to attack you, but just genuinly something to think about.
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SixTen
10-12-2008, 09:55 AM
^

Indeed, who remembers the story of that girl who was imprisoned in a kidnappers basement for god knows how many years. In the end, the guy commited suicide. Strangely, the girl who was kidnapped, grieved for him. Why?

In an abusive relationship, it is possible for one to become attached to the other.

It is what trumble is talking about, that, you can't judge a situation as correct/incorrect, by the apparent state of the people. As people can be moulded, in so many different ways.

I would disclose, some other tribal practices, but they are indeed so sickening it would drive you to the toilet - but the point is, a lot of practices, become the "norm" and hence the people are not affected - but again - this cannot be used to justify something, in that "look they don't mind, they are happy etc".
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doorster
10-12-2008, 09:59 AM

Closed: Aisha was 6 years old?
halapeno

Closed: The Marriage of Aisha to the Prophet(PBUH)
Aziz

^^why were these 2 closed only to be restarted again? does anyone know?
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Güven
10-12-2008, 10:06 AM
:sl:

Youngest Mother on record was an 5 year old peruvian girl:

http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp
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barney
10-12-2008, 11:00 AM
The arguement is whether it is morally right to have sex with nine year olds.
It was morally right in the day of the prophet.
The Prophet did so, and he was a perfect example of mankind who has never been equalled. He would never have done something wrong.

A more puzzeling question is why is having sex with 9 year olds now considered something of concern amongst many muslims, when the prophets actions confirmed it as a morally exemplary thing to do?
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SixTen
10-12-2008, 11:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
The arguement is whether it is morally right to have sex with nine year olds.
It was morally right in the day of the prophet.
The Prophet did so, and he was a perfect example of mankind who has never been equalled. He would never have done something wrong.

A more puzzeling question is why is having sex with 9 year olds now considered something of concern amongst many muslims, when the prophets actions confirmed it as a morally exemplary thing to do?
You have made a mistake.

Firstly, not everything the Prophet did, we can do, such as, he married more than 4 wives - when muslims are only allowed 4.

He was on a prophetic mission - and scholars have given a range of reasons why he would have married Aisha (ra), ranging from political, to the protection of her from some of her relatives etc etc.

Aisha (ra) in the above situation, should not automatically be transpired into all 6-9 year old worldwide, to this day.

One could say that, as he was a Prophet, he would not abuse the situation, while men, are weak, and may abuse having such a right given to them.

The outright allowing of marriage of 6 year olds, may cause masses of abuse by people these days as you can imagine.

And lastly, although people may contest it, a lot of people still believe that the actual age of Aisha (ra) was 16-19 year olds, which even historians support - according to more earlier sources - I believe the 6-9 year old, although seen as authentic, is a later source - and hence we may have a conflict on our hand (I would urge brothers not to get into a debate if she was 9 or 19 though, you can't really prove or disprove either cases, both have support etc, and in the end, if she was 16-19, its not negative in anyway to Islam). So in the end, its all a bit of a confusing I guess as to how we should apply what happened to this day.
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Hamayun
10-12-2008, 02:08 PM
I have a question...

Why does everyone automatically assume that our Prophet (PBUH) had sexual intercourse with Aisha (RA) as soon as she arrived at his house?

Did anyone actually witness the act to say for sure what had happened between them? No? Did Aisha (RA) fall pregnant soon after the marriage? No?

No one except Allah knows!! So for us to assume whether sexual intercourse took place or not is ridiculous Astaghfirullah!!!

The Prophet (PBUH) was a kind and gentle soul. He suffered monumental pain for others. The least people can do is not jump to conclusions...
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SixTen
10-12-2008, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I have a question...

Why does everyone automatically assume that our Prophet (PBUH) had sexual intercourse with Aisha (RA) as soon as she arrived at his house?

Did anyone actually witness the act to say for sure what had happened between them? No? Did Aisha (RA) fall pregnant soon after the marriage? No?

No one except Allah knows!! So for us to assume whether sexual intercourse took place or not is ridiculous Astaghfirullah!!!

The Prophet (PBUH) was a kind and gentle soul. He suffered monumental pain for others. The least people can do is not jump to conclusions...
I believe, it is narrated in hadith, that he had consummated the marriage brother - hence why it is assumed, not because someone witnessed the account. Infact, alot of things of the Prophet (saw) are known because of the relaying by Aisha (ra).
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Hamayun
10-12-2008, 03:53 PM
But does "consummated" automatically mean a full fledged sexual intercourse? Is that the direct translation from Arabic?

Could that not be referring to performing the final ritual of marriage? where the bride and groom are left alone in the room to celebrate their first night of marriage?
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SixTen
10-12-2008, 04:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
But does "consummated" automatically mean a full fledged sexual intercourse? Is that the direct translation from Arabic?

Could that not be referring to performing the final ritual of marriage? where the bride and groom are left alone in the room to celebrate their first night of marriage?
Somtimes, shia'hs do say this. However, the sunni viewpoint is strong that, they did have a sexual relationship, by evidence of many hadiths that exist on the matter.
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*~~AdAn~~*
10-12-2008, 04:22 PM
http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.html


http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/aisha_new.html
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Hamayun
10-12-2008, 09:37 PM
All those points are very valid and interesting. So if Aisha (RA) took part in the battle of Uhud and Badr she would have to be over 15 years of age right? What do the scholars make of this and all the other valid points?
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NYCmuslim
10-13-2008, 01:43 AM
Her age in battle brings up something interesting. Also some other points to consider:

There is material from both these hadith writers and earlier Islamic histories suggesting Aisha must have been older than nine when married.

* According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.

* Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.

* Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

* Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.

* According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.

* Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Muhammad reports that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”. It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq. Another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.

* According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.

* According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

* According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.

* Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).

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MSalman
10-13-2008, 04:23 PM
As-Salamu 'Alaykum

this historian bogus have been debunked here: Age of 'Aisha's Marriage: Historians vs Hadith Scholars. It always makes me wonder when would these "moderate" Muslim Apologists stop distorting the correct teachings of Islam.

Islam has laid down basic rules on when a person can consummate the marriage or engage in sexual intercourse with his/her spouse. These guidelines are absolute and are not left to individuals. If non-Muslims think they make sense, good for them; otherwise, too bad. As we believe, we're here to please Allah Ta'ala not individuals.

Imam Ibn kathir (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates a hadith in his Al-Bidayah wa-Nihayah:
"Imam Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith which he heard from Farwa bin abi al-Mughria who heard from 'Ali bin Masher who heard from Hisham bin 'Urawh who heard from his father who reports from 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her), who said: 'When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was betrowth to me, I was six years old. Later, when we migrated from Makkah to Medina and satyed at bin harith bin khdhrj's place, I had grown up. My hair had got longer and I had physically matured; however, I still used to play with other girls...I was nine years old at that time."
Source Page 210-211
So our mother (May Allah be pleased with her) not only had reached puberty but she had also physically matured when the marriage was consumated.

Wallahu A'lam
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