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Al-Zaara
10-15-2008, 06:16 PM
... Including Finland. My mouth fell wide open when a teacher showed me that gigantic book today. We got 5 copies.

Did any of you get? (those who attend school)

I believe some countries have gotten those books earlier, but I know our school just recently got them.

How did you react to it?
How did your school react?
Can students read it anytime they want?
What have your teachers or fellow classmates said?

If you haven't gotten any, please state your point of view here about this incident.
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Güven
10-15-2008, 06:41 PM
you got the ATLAS of Creation By Harun Yahya on your School , Thats just Unbelievable!! :eek:

:w:
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Ali_Cena
10-15-2008, 06:41 PM
WOW were do you study england, becuase i know it was sent to coutries in the EU such as finland and france but i am not sure about england i would LOVE to see it in england, as thier are alot of evolutionist such as dawkins, and the founder of evolution darwin. i think it will be great that books such as harun yahyas be sent to schools as i think the theory of evoluiton "brainwashes" people.

ok bye
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Al-Zaara
10-15-2008, 06:45 PM
Güven - My reaction too, haha. So your school didn't get any?

Ali_Cena, thanks for your input and comments!

I don't live or study in England. I study in Finland and trust me, there are lots of followers of the evolution-theory here aswell, just like in England.
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Güven
10-15-2008, 06:46 PM
I dont know I have 1 week Holiday, Autumn Holiday ;D

But It would be extremely Suprising if our school gets one :ooh:

:w:
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Ali_Cena
10-15-2008, 06:48 PM
seeing as i always talk about creation and evolution to my freinds as school the Atlas of Creation could help them understand more, as the mostly say show me "proof" and that....
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The Khan
10-15-2008, 07:04 PM
:sl:

I shall find out about this. I doubt it's been sent here.

:w:
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Trumble
10-15-2008, 07:19 PM
Anyone pushing Yahya's garbage onto innocent young minds should be prosecuted for child abuse. Please note I am not criticising creationist literature per se, but Yahya's version of it which is a mixture of half-truths, lies and distortions.
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Al-Zaara
10-15-2008, 07:23 PM
^ Haha, tough one. I'd say the same about those Barney cartoons, traumatized for life... imsad

Pushing they ain't here at least, but let's say by giving those books you are granted... 'more options'. The pictures were nice though.
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The_Prince
10-15-2008, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Anyone pushing Yahya's garbage onto innocent young minds should be prosecuted for child abuse.
its the other way round, people should be prosecuted for pushing evolution garbage on kids.
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barney
10-15-2008, 08:22 PM
I downloaed it some weeks back

[some content removed]

Download here: Feel Free its all funded by the KSA to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollers!
http://us1.fmanager.net/api_v1/selec...=file,id=28625

[some content removed]

Dawkins examination of it here.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,32...ims-of-Britain
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Hamayun
10-15-2008, 08:58 PM
Whats so funny about them??? What "lies" are you referring to?

I have seen a few yahya vids and didn't find them humorous.

Can you give me any examples please? I am assuming you have evidence that the information in those videos has been proven to be false?
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Güven
10-15-2008, 09:04 PM
Well When i first Started practising , I watched All his videos and i have to say it was not that bad..

:w:
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barney
10-15-2008, 09:54 PM
Yup, but you chaps are creationists, so you wouldnt get the humour!
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Hamayun
10-15-2008, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Yup, but you chaps are creationists, so you wouldnt get the humour!
Fair point. Same way we find Darwin's "theory" of Evolution hilarious I guess...
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barney
10-15-2008, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Fair point. Same way we find Darwin's "theory" of Evolution hilarious I guess...
Oh no.
No.That wouldnt be funny at all.:muddlehea
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alcurad
10-15-2008, 10:48 PM
there is nothing in the qur'an or sunnah which denies evolution per se, except perhaps when it comes to humans.
now personally I think we could have much better than oktar speaking on our behalf.
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czgibson
10-16-2008, 02:05 AM
Greetings,

Excellent links from barney - thank you! :)

And Trumble put it well: 'charlatan' and 'clown' are the two very best words to describe Harun Yahya. They are not even obscenities, despite what some may have you believe.

It is heartening to know that there are some on this forum like alcurad who perhaps realise what an embarrassment Adnan Oktar is to all Muslims.

I've been visiting this forum for a couple of years now, and the number of times I've seen Harun Yahya's website being linked to has long passed the uncountable. Some people actually appear to believe that that's the best place to go to learn about evolution.

Putting this stuff anywhere near schools is toxic, unless it's in an English class as an example of How Not To Write A Textbook.

The fact that Oktar's works are mass-produced (if you believe he writes every word, you have GOT to be kidding), funded so massively by "sources unknown" and distributed for free surely tells you one thing very clearly:

People aren't buying it.

Peace
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Malaikah
10-16-2008, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
there is nothing in the qur'an or sunnah which denies evolution per se, except perhaps when it comes to humans.
now personally I think we could have much better than oktar speaking on our behalf.
:sl:

Hear, hear!

Except there is no "perhaps" that the Quran is against evolution of humans - it is definite, 100% (at least in the sense that humans came from Adam).
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north_malaysian
10-16-2008, 07:07 AM
Have anyone here read "What is the Origin of Man" by Maurice Bucaille?

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...OM/default.htm
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doorster
10-16-2008, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Have anyone here read "What is the Origin of Man" by Maurice Bucaille?
:sl:
it does not matter much if there is anything pro-Islam in it, since they will be (and have been) allowed to insult him by saying that whatever he said/wrote, he did for cash

anyway if any Muslim is interested it might be found here @
What is the Origin of Man?


I do not know if this is an original or not

:w:

Evolution in the Light of Islam
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Al-Zaara
10-16-2008, 03:04 PM
Thanks y'all for commenting! Really interesting.
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roohani.doctor
10-16-2008, 03:25 PM
islam isnt totally against the whole theory of evolution... i heard an interview with yusuf estes where he said sumthin bout Allah is the Creator as well as the Evolution-er, and Adam (PBUH) was a 100% human, but pple then used to live for 100s of years, and we dont, plus i heard that they used to be waay taller than us..... but anyhoo point is.... not sure.... just that i think its entirely possible to believe in both evolution and creation....obviously within reason
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Izyan
10-16-2008, 03:40 PM
This has always baffled me. Why can't you believe in both Creationism and Evolution? Why couldn't God have created man, animals,and plants to evole into something else? Does the catipillar not turn into a butterfly?
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Hamayun
10-16-2008, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
This has always baffled me. Why can't you believe in both Creationism and Evolution? Why couldn't God have created man, animals,and plants to evole into something else? Does the catipillar not turn into a butterfly?
Very true..
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alcurad
10-16-2008, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:


Except there is no "perhaps" that the Quran is against evolution of humans - it is definite, 100% (at least in the sense that humans came from Adam).
humans coming from Adam does not mean evolution is wrong...
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Hamayun
10-16-2008, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
humans coming from Adam does not mean evolution is wrong...
Sharks, dragonflies and many other species have not evolved at all for the last 500 million years. Whats your point?

Several species have not changed at all since they came into existence. But people don't take much notice of that.
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barney
10-16-2008, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by londonfog
obviously within reason
And therein lies the rub. Although Harun is slating evolution in a manner similar to slating algebra with the arguement that letters are not numbers (I.E He simply hasnt a clue of the very basic facts of evolution , and cant be bothered to find out), by his own hopelessly inadequate standards, which i will steep to for a moment, May I ask him the question.

Why are Humans still not 90 foot tall?

That , my freinds, is the sheer level of ridicule deserved for this , very glossy very expensive , very stupid book.
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alcurad
10-16-2008, 11:04 PM
my point is, i was addressing sister Malikah:)

but brother Hamayun, there were no sharks 500 million years ago, there were shark ancestors. I don't know much about dragonflies though, where did you see/hear that?
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barney
10-16-2008, 11:12 PM
AFAIK, Sharks are the oldest non evolved fish in the world. Similar to crocodiles they have been around hundreds of thousands of years.

If anyone is expecting sharks to evolve, they dont know evolution.

Simply put, If you want to argue against evolution, know what your saying first, or else you will end up looking like poor old Harun. A laughing stock amongst anyone who has a basic education.
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Hamayun
10-16-2008, 11:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
humans coming from Adam does not mean evolution is wrong...
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
my point is, i was addressing sister Malikah:)

but brother Hamayun, there were no sharks 500 million years ago, there were shark ancestors. I don't know much about dragonflies though, where did you see/hear that?
I just realised I agree with you :-[

I read your post wrong. I thought you meant humans coming from Adam means evolution is wrong...

I was trying to prove the same point as you...

Just because a certain species hasn't evolved does not mean evolution doesn't happen.

Sorry lol.
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north_malaysian
10-17-2008, 12:52 AM
Some animals evolved and some are not... which prove that there is a God... he chosed which animals evolved and which is not...

and like alcurad said "humans coming from Adam does not mean evolution is wrong... "
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The Khan
10-17-2008, 01:30 AM
That's the best post I've read in this thread so far. ^_^

Personally though, the man evolved from monkey thing... I'm not buying it. That's similar to the evolution of birds from dinosaurs (saw it on discovery).

Makes you wonder though...why do people think dinosaurs had scales? Why not feathers? Or hair? ^^;
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alcurad
10-17-2008, 05:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I just realised I agree with you :-[

I read your post wrong. I thought you meant humans coming from Adam means evolution is wrong...

I was trying to prove the same point as you...

Just because a certain species hasn't evolved does not mean evolution doesn't happen.

Sorry lol.
heh, no problem:)
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Trumble
10-17-2008, 07:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Some animals evolved and some are not... which prove that there is a God... he chosed which animals evolved and which is not...
It doesn't 'disprove' there is a God, at best. Not only does evolution by natural selection account for different rates of evolution - down to (virtually) none in some cases - it predicts them.

Evolution by natural selection is not the generally accepted scientific theory for no reason, and that reason is not (despite some of the nonsense you might read) due to any sort of conspiracy. It is the generally accepted scientific theory for exactly the same reason as quantum mechanics and relativity are generally accepted - it explains and predicts the empirical evidence better than any other (scientific) theory anyine has yet come up with. No creationist rhetoric will change that.. if evolution ever does fall it will be on scientific grounds. Real science, that is. Which (Doorster) is the significant difference between Maurice Bucaille and Harun Yahya. Bucalle knows both in general and specific terms what the real science is, and addresses the question on that level. Yahya is ignorant of it or (more likely) chooses to deliberately misrepresent it on the assumption that his audience is.
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Al-Zaara
10-17-2008, 09:36 AM
Very good points, I especially agree with alcurad and north_malaysian and I ask myself the question which Izyan asked aswell.

Just a side note, I never agreed with Harun's view on this matter, I just found it interesting how there's going on a "power struggle"... Like giving those books out all over the world disapproving with the theory learned in many schools (especially in the USA have I seen trouble with this), and here were I live, there has recently been a quite fiercy discussion about creationism and evolution in the newspapers. His timing was perfect, so to say.

Thanks again y'all!
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 09:37 AM
Harun Yahya, sigh :/. You should avoid taking Qur'an interpretation, or science, from this man.
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Malaikah
10-17-2008, 09:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
This has always baffled me. Why can't you believe in both Creationism and Evolution? Why couldn't God have created man, animals,and plants to evole into something else? Does the catipillar not turn into a butterfly?
Of course, there is nothing contraversial about that. What is contraversial is that humans evolved from a non-human ancestor. We don't believe that. We believe all humans come from Adam.

format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
humans coming from Adam does not mean evolution is wrong...
I know. It just means the theory that humans evolved from a non-human ancestor is wrong.

There is nothing in Islam to negate that other life forms (animals, plants, single-celled organisms etc) could have evolved from a common ancestor.
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doorster
10-17-2008, 09:56 AM
Adequacy of Evolution


excerpt from:
Evolution in the Light of Islam


Evolution is a scientific theory that, before attempting to employ it to understand the sunnan of Allah in creation, should be investigated using the internal logic of scientific inquiry and well-established scientific methodologies. The most basic question is whether the theory of evolution really delivers an adequate explanation of the complexity of life. Given the space constraints of this article, it is impossible to discuss all the alleged evidence supporting the theory. However, what is notable is that the theory has not provided any detailed account for the emergence of the complex organs, structures, and mechanisms observed in all living forms. This does not mean that there are no partial attempts aimed at that objective, nor does it mean the falsity of evolution.


The root of this problem can be understood as follows. Assume that to have a structure fitted to the environment, the organism needs two changes. These two changes may be two point mutations or two modifications to two already existing structures that do different tasks and which will make them come together to perform a new function(13). Now the simultaneous occurrence of the two required changes, on the basis of Neo-Darwinism, has an extremely small probability(14). Serial occurrence, i.e., one change after the other, does not solve the problem. Also, in the serial scenario, there is an additional problem if the occurrence of any of the two changes without the other causes a disadvantage to the organism. The Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution appeals to a series of slight successive variations under the presumption that, at every step, it is more likely that the occurring change would be beneficial to the organism, or at least not harmful. If that is the case, then it means that fitness as a function of the genetic makeup of the organism has a very special form of dependence that requires an explanation of its own(15).
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doorster
10-17-2008, 10:08 AM
even people like Br. Nuh Ha Mim Keller who have quite a few novel ideas about Islam draw the line at this subject of man's evolution
As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr) no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an. Man is of special origin, attested to not only by revelation, but also by the divine secret within him, the capacity for ma'rifa or knowledge of the Divine that he alone of all things possesses. By his God-given nature, man stands before a door opening onto infinitude that no other creature in the universe can aspire to. Man is something else.
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 10:54 AM
Have we found fossils of half mutated animals? Like animals in the transitional stages say between a Dinosaur and a parrot?

There seems to be a gap in many cases. Do we have fossils of all the transitional stages for every single animal?

I mean if we can find fossils of pre-historic dinosaurs then it can't be hard to find the fossils of the transistional stages?

Especially when it comes to human beings why don't we have fossils of all the different stages? Human's are pretty recent on earth comparatively so it should be a lot easier to find the fossils.
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 10:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Have we found fossils of half mutated animals? Like animals in the transitional stages say between a Dinosaur and a parrot?

There seems to be a gap in many cases. Do we have fossils of all the transitional stages for every single animal?

I mean if we can find fossils of pre-historic dinosaurs then it can't be hard to find the fossils of the transistional stages?

Especially when it comes to human beings why don't we have fossils of all the different stages? Human's are pretty recent on earth comparatively so it should be a lot easier to find the fossils.
Transitions fossils do exist. Also, it is a myth, that we should find everything easily, infact, it is very lucky, that we found as much as we have.
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Transitions fossils do exist. Also, it is a myth, that we should find everything easily, infact, it is very lucky, that we found as much as we have.
Cool! So we have fossils of all the stages of human evolution? Thats sorted then. :)

Do you have a link to a website that shows the pics of the fossils? I would love to see them :)

Thanks
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Cool! So we have fossils of all the stages of human evolution? Thats sorted then. :)

Do you have a link to a website that shows the pics of the fossils? I would love to see them :)

Thanks
No, I didn't say, for every stage exist (I mean, what is the probability of finding that, considering the billions of years the Earth has existed!), I just said transittion fossils do exist :).
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 11:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
No, I didn't say, for every stage exist, I just said transittion fossils do exist :).
I am still interested in seeing them... how many of the stages between man and monkey have been found?

Reminds me of the planet of apes lol. Intelligent monkeys living in houses. Drinking tea lol.
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I am still interested in seeing them... how many of the stages between man and monkey have been found?

Reminds me of the planet of apes lol. Intelligent monkeys living in houses. Drinking tea lol.
You can, look up, homonid fossils, such as here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

and homonid species here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 11:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
You can, look up, homonid fossils, such as here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

and homonid species here http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html

I have to admit it is a very interesting read. Not quite the transitional stages I was hoping for but still thanks for that.

It suggests that we may have a common ancestor with the ape family but there is no clear evidence yet.

Thanks.
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doorster
10-17-2008, 11:31 AM

It (the kafar website) suggests that we may have a common ancestor with the ape family but there is no clear evidence yet.

  • If man has indeed evolved from a monkey, then doesn't the Qur'ân conflict with this theory?
  • and is believing in what Qur'ân conficts with not kufr?
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
  • If man has indeed evolved from a monkey, then doesn't the Qur'ân conflict with this theory?
  • and is believing in what Qur'ân conficts with not kufr?
Well I never said I believe it brother... there is no evidence. It only suggests that we might have a common ancestor with the apes.


Its just a theory and we know from history how many theories that people swore by for years have been proven wrong.

My faith is in Allah alone and even if things evolve then it is because he wants it to happen. Allahu Akbar :)
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doorster
10-17-2008, 11:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Well I never said I believe it brother... there is no evidence. It only suggests that we might have a common ancestor with the apes.


Its just a theory and we know from history how many theories that people swore by have been proven wrong.

My faith is in Allah alone and even if things evolve then it is because he wants it to happen. Allahu Akbar :)
No, not you (I like your ability to question), it is a question addressed to those, who in an attempt to look educated, jump in and start agreeing with evolutionist and in an effort to be liked by these kuffaar get my posts deleted as insulting or off-topic, so I clumsily piggy-backed on your post to keep mine from being sent to cyber-nothingness

:w:

even when they only say: "we might have a common ancestor with the apes,it is same as saying that "Qur'ân might be wrong"
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 11:49 AM
actually nvm - off-topic
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 12:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
it is same as saying that "Qur'ân might be wrong"
That is what the Evolutionists think. Not me. I was referring to the fact that they use the word "might" for the theory that we evolved from apes. Which means there is no clear evidence.

Is there any evidence? If there was then we wouldn't be having this debate. It is all assumptions and theories. No solid evidence.

Relax brother. Newton's laws of physics went out of the window recently so will many other laws and theories. Just hold tight and hold on the the rope of Allah (SWT)
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doorster
10-17-2008, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
That is what the Evolutionists think. Not me. I was referring to the fact that they use the word "might" for the theory that we evolved from apes. Which means there is no clear evidence.

Is there any evidence? If there was then we wouldn't be having this debate. It is all assumptions and theories. No solid evidence.

Relax brother. Newton's laws of physics went out of the window recently so will many other laws and theories. Just hold tight and hold on the the rope of Allah (SWT)
I do not know how to make it any clearer that my intended target was not you, I had better leave the thread before I get in to any more trouble, I am already being shunned by entire LI-Staff with exception of 2 or three and only have a total of 4 members on this site (of over 20 k membership) who will help me covertly with my posts (I was hoping you to become the 5th)

I, once again, apologise and will edit the "offending" post yet again.
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 12:32 PM
lol Sorry brother. I am not offended in the least :D I actually appreciate your posts. Don't edit them. They are your honest opinion :)

Jazakallah Khayr bro :)

While on the subject what caused the first organism to come into existence? Even if it was just a single celled organism. What made it alive as opposed to other matter?
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YusufNoor
10-17-2008, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
I do not know how to make it any clearer that my intended target was not you, I had better leave the thread before I get in to any more trouble, I am already being shunned by entire LI-Staff with exception of 2 or three and only have a total of 4 members on this site (of over 20 k membership) who will help me covertly with my posts (I was hoping you to become the 5th)

I, once again, apologise and will edit the "offending" post yet again.
:sl:

if i can be of assistance, Shabir Ahmed ibn Abdul Rahman, let me know! you have more of an education than i, so when you post you are apt to say what i would have, only you say it better![so i end up posting less] :D

just have Sabr!

and remember Hamayun ALL of the laws of nature, even if real, only apply to us and NOT to Allah[swt]!

e=mc [squared] IS SHIRK! unless you write it: e=mc [squared] FOR MAN! as Allah[swt] can create either energy or mass any way He[swt] wants merely by saying: "BE!"

and if we evolved from apes, wouldn't apes be gone...:blind:

:w:
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Trumble
10-17-2008, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Newton's laws of physics went out of the window
Man went to the moon on the basis of Newton's laws of physics! Relativistic physics just shows Newtonian physics to be a special case, one that is perfectly adequate for virtually everything in everyday experience.
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
and remember Hamayun ALL of the laws of nature, even if real, only apply to us and NOT to Allah[swt]!

e=mc [squared] IS SHIRK! unless you write it: e=mc [squared] FOR MAN! as Allah[swt] can create either energy or mass any way He[swt] wants merely by saying: "BE!"

and if we evolved from apes, wouldn't apes be gone...:blind:

:w:
The evolutionists reckon that we had a common ancestor which means one of the species of monkey evolved into man while the other species carried on as monkeys.
Again these are not my ideas I am just explaining their point of view.


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Man went to the moon on the basis of Newton's laws of physics! Relativistic physics just shows Newtonian physics to be a special case, one that is perfectly adequate for virtually everything in everyday experience.
That just confirms what brother YusufNoor said. The laws that apply to humans/earth may not apply in other dimensions.
Don't limit yourself to what you see around you. I doubt we know even 0.1% about the universe. "Only Allah knows what lies in the heavens and the earth".
All I can say is Allahu Akbar :)
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barney
10-17-2008, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Some animals evolved and some are not... which prove that there is a God... he chosed which animals evolved and which is not...

and like alcurad said "humans coming from Adam does not mean evolution is wrong... "

There is a reason some animals evolve and others dont, but it's not explained by God.
If you want a good basic understanding of the theory I would reccommend the series of Vidio's "Climbing Mount Improbable" they are on youtube as well as at RDF
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Woodrow
10-17-2008, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
  • If man has indeed evolved from a monkey, then doesn't the Qur'ân conflict with this theory?
  • and is believing in what Qur'ân conficts with not kufr?
True

Now we need to understand what was said and under what conditions.

The words, might, possible, if, imagine and many similar words are strong indicators the statement is only a person's thought.

A person's thought may be just an analogy, a guess, or random imagination. It means the person has no way to show it is what is.


Without believing it to be true a person can say in innocence "We might be descended from polka dotted unicorns." which is much different than saying we are descended from polka dotted unicorns.

A "might be" statement is neither true nor false, It is no more than an exclamation. Not much different than simply shouting "blkspft" meaningless words to generate conversation or thought.
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
There is a reason some animals evolve and others dont, but it's not explained by God.
And the reason being an intelligent system called evolution? You do agree it is an intelligent system right?

Or do you believe an amoeba has the mental and physical capacity to change physical form by just willing it for many centuries? "Oh I quite fancy growing a pair of those eyes and ears people keep talking about. They are the latest fad."

The design of the eye is extremely intricate and complex. The replication of anything even close to it would need a huge amount of planning, research and development....
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
And the reason being an intelligent system called evolution? You do agree it is an intelligent system right?

Or do you believe an amoeba has the mental and physical capacity to change physical form by just willing it for many centuries? "Oh I quite fancy growing a pair of those eyes and ears people keep talking about. They are the latest fad."

The design of the eye is extremely intricate and complex. The replication of anything even close to it would need a huge amount of planning, research and development....
I am not sure what you mean sister, but it is possible to evolve eyes and lose them - and then evolve eyes again - evident from some species (where they lost the eyes, where they were no longer beneficial economically, but gained it again when it was). It sounds strange in writing, but it is over millions of years. We humans, live maybe 60-80 years, so it is a reason why we find it very hard to try grasp evolution.

By the way, no one suggest that, an eye just popped up on 1 creature :).
Reply

Hamayun
10-17-2008, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
I am not sure what you mean sister, but it is possible to evolve eyes and lose them - and then evolve eyes again - evident from some species (where they lost the eyes, where they were no longer beneficial economically, but gained it again when it was). It sounds strange in writing, but it is over millions of years. We humans, live maybe 60-80 years, so it is a reason why we find it very hard to try grasp evolution.

By the way, no one suggest that, an eye just popped up on 1 creature :).
I understand what you are saying but I was referring to the R&D that must have gone into the design of the eye.

Also who decided that "Wouldn't it be handy if we had 2 video cameras attached to our heads with lenses focussing light on to photo sensitive material which in turn would convert that into an electrical signal and sent to a CPU for processing"

Also I am not a sister?
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I understand what you are saying but I was referring to the R&D that must have gone into the design of the eye.

Also who decided that "Wouldn't it be handy if we had 2 video cameras attached to our heads with lenses focussing light on to photo sensitive material which in turn would convert that into an electrical signal and sent to a CPU for processing"

Also I am not a sister?
Sorry brother >.<.

As for, who decides, its actually, "natural", hence natural selection.

You see, the creatures compete as you know. Having eyes, use up resources, energy and so fourth. So, in a population of eyed species, if a mutant individual or group, who, were blind came in- they could have an advantage (as they don't need to use as much resources, as you know the brain uses alot on the eyes), they will have an advantage over the others. This is in a situation ofcourse where, say, due to environmental or otherwise, their was a serious lack of light, hence making eyes insufficient. In such a population, the blind ones will eventually take over, as they will better compete and the others will die off.
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Woodrow
10-17-2008, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Sorry brother >.<.

As for, who decides, its actually, "natural", hence natural selection.

You see, the creatures compete as you know. Having eyes, use up resources, energy and so fourth. So, in a population of eyed species, if a mutant individual or group, who, were blind came in- they could have an advantage (as they don't need to use as much resources, as you know the brain uses alot on the eyes), they will have an advantage over the others. This is in a situation ofcourse where, say, due to environmental or otherwise, their was a serious lack of light, hence making eyes insufficient. In such a population, the blind ones will eventually take over, as they will better compete and the others will die off.
That brings about a bit of a paradox. Especially in the case of blind cave animals. Natural caves actually only have relatively short periods of time in which they support a living population. The geology of caves is quite rapid in terms of geological ages. Not the millions of years required for changes in animals to be explained by the current theories of evolution.
Reply

Hamayun
10-17-2008, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Sorry brother >.<.

As for, who decides, its actually, "natural", hence natural selection.

You see, the creatures compete as you know. Having eyes, use up resources, energy and so fourth. So, in a population of eyed species, if a mutant individual or group, who, were blind came in- they could have an advantage (as they don't need to use as much resources, as you know the brain uses alot on the eyes), they will have an advantage over the others. This is in a situation ofcourse where, say, due to environmental or otherwise, their was a serious lack of light, hence making eyes insufficient. In such a population, the blind ones will eventually take over, as they will better compete and the others will die off.
That hasn't answered my question about the Research and development that went into designing an eye that uses accurate lenses to correctly focus light and efficently works for different species according to their needs.

There are millions of chemical reactions that take place in the eye within split seconds, then the information is converted into electrical format and transmitted to the central processing unit of the human body. An extremely clever design...

Did nature do the R&D? If nature did that then nature must be an intelligent being who is in control of all this? Hmm.... who is nature and how does he know how to design all these complex systems?

The retracting pupils, the eye lids, the lenses of perfect curvature, the chemical system, the data transfer system, the data processing system... I can go on forever. Who did the research, planning and development?
Reply

SixTen
10-17-2008, 04:20 PM
Who said anything about research&Development? Can you prove that, nature has to be intelligent, to form an eye? Does, yourself finding the eye to be complex, a solid arguement for design? Not really. (Intelligence, here, implies concious decisioning, natural selection, although is not seen as random, is seen as blind and unconcious).
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Who said anything about research&Development? Can you prove that, nature has to be intelligent, to form an eye? Does, yourself finding the eye to be complex, a solid arguement for design? Not really. (Intelligence, here, implies concious decisioning, natural selection, although is not seen as random, is seen as blind and unconcious).
So according to you unconciously these animals created all the complex systems of the body?

The nervous system
The respiratory system
The digestive system
The reproductive system
The circulatory system
The self healing of bones, skin etc
Sight
Hearing
Touch
Smell
Taste
Love
Compassion
Guilt
Repentance
Honesty

Came into existence blindly? With no design? I don't know how you are happy to believe that yet you find the idea of a creator absurd?

Sorry but I don't share your logic.

Also survival of the fittest should mean that things like self sacrifice, honesty, compassion, love shouldn't exist. They go against susrvival of the fittest. Why do we even have morals in that case?
Reply

suffiyan007
10-17-2008, 04:48 PM
i dont have a chance to read Harun Yahya...books...i felt it was a waste...i cant find it in Malaysia...because oversea books..! :coolious:
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
So according to you unconciously these animals created all the complex systems of the body?

The nervous system
The respiratory system
The digestive system
The reproductive system
The circulatory system
The self healing of bones, skin etc
Sight
Hearing
Touch
Smell
Taste
Love
Compassion
Guilt
Repentance
Honesty
I discussed this brother, define complex? Isn't it subjective? Can you give me a scientific proof of the limitations of nature?

Came into existence blindly? With no design? I don't know how you are happy to believe that yet you find the idea of a creator absurd?
Evolution does not prove nor disprove Allah my brother.

Also survival of the fittest should mean that things like self sacrifice, honesty, compassion, love shouldn't exist. They go against susrvival of the fittest. Why do we even have morals in that case?
That is, misunderstanding of evolution on your behalf. Just 1 example of thousands, a group of animals, who work together - will have an increased chance of survival, then a group who do not co-operate. Quite logical, and simple imo.
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Trumble
10-17-2008, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
The retracting pupils, the eye lids, the lenses of perfect curvature, the chemical system, the data transfer system, the data processing system... I can go on forever. Who did the research, planning and development?
Nobody, because no such 'research, planning and development' was necessary. I mentioned earlier that putting up rhetoric against science just doesn't cut it.. evolution by natural selection provides at least an outline explanation of how eye could come into existence without any of those things. BTW, perhaps if there had been some 'research, planning and development' there would be no such things as myopia and glaucoma.

Sorry but I don't share your logic.

Also survival of the fittest should mean that things like self sacrifice, honesty, compassion, love shouldn't exist. They go against susrvival of the fittest. Why do we even have morals in that case?
You aren't using any 'logic', just rhetoric which, as with Yahya, is only likely to effective with those who are already committed to the creationist cause and/or simply don't understand what evolution is actually about.

Whether emotions can be treated in terms of Darwinian evolution or not is a very open question, but there is a sizeable amount of literature (Tooby, Cosmides, Ekman, Averill), suggesting both that they can and that they have evolved precisely because they enhance survival chances and not reduce them... there is indeed even one theory (De Sousa) that claims they are essential for rational thought of any kind to occur at all.

'Morals' are distinct from emotions; and they are social constructs not the result of evolution.. at least in the Darwinian sense. Even so, it can easily be argued they enhance survival chances and not reduce them. You are much more likely to survive as one of a group that co-operates according to a common convention of morality than as an individual who won't/can't co-operate with anybody.

PS. Actually, surely the 'research, planning and development' thing makes no sense in the context of God, anyway? He wouldn't need to 'research' or 'develop', surely? I'm not even sure 'planning' makes much sense in the context of an omnipotent, omniscient entity.
Reply

Hamayun
10-17-2008, 08:09 PM
All I see is lots of words... inconclusive, absurd and unconvincing.

If you are happy to believe that some animals grew wings with the intention of using the atmosphere as a mode of transport and just unknowingly stumbled upon the laws of aeronautical physics then that's your choice.

Sorry but your theories are nothing but empty words to me. I am out of this debate because we could go around in circles and still never see eye to eye.

Peace out :peace:
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
All I see is lots of words... inconclusive, absurd and unconvincing.

If you are happy to believe that some animals grew wings with the intention of using the atmosphere as a mode of transport and just unknowingly stumbled upon the laws of aeronautical physics then that's your choice.

Sorry but your theories are nothing but empty words to me. I am out of this debate because we could go around in circles and still never see eye to eye.

Peace out :peace:
You know brother, the arrogant attitude does you no favour. This surrendering of the debate, shows that you wern't looking for a discussion to begin with - you just wanted to impose your beliefs on others. This is common, on those who do not have knowledge on a particular subject, but I will show patience and continue to answer any queries.

First, if you don't know about evolution, you ask, that is what people normally do. You could have asked, how did birds end up with wings to fly? But no, instead, tried to make it look like we believe in absurd science.

First, about the wings, nature didn't create them to make the creatures fly. However, just imagine, a mutant creature, with 5% (or less of a developped wing). His survival chance increases, simply due to that, he is able to land better (wind resistance etc), it is by natural selection, that it was favoured that he has this piece of wing - the wing did not form in the first place because nature wanted it but it was via mutation of the gene - which came about by evolution. Now, over millions of years, the creatures with longer wings, tended to survive better and do better in the environment. Over many many millions of years, you see them to have the wings they have today - that wing didn't just come overnight, or was not even the intention of nature. It happened via natural selection.

The ability to fly, was not even natures intent, that was a by product of the whole process.

You shouldn't exit so soon, because a lot of the things - I am happy to explain. Any claim you got, from "Why do apes still exist?" to "Why are polar bears white then?"
Reply

جوري
10-17-2008, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Nobody, because no such 'research, planning and development' was necessary. I mentioned earlier that putting up rhetoric against science just doesn't cut it.. evolution by natural selection provides at least an outline explanation of how eye could come into existence without any of those things. BTW, perhaps if there had been some 'research, planning and development' there would be no such things as myopia and glaucoma.

.
I must admit, that I have merely browsed over the topic and not sure who is saying what, but couldn't help be attracted to the above.. far from me to desire a long winded debate as I am pressed for time until the end of this month, but perhaps you can offer me a scientific outline as to how natural selection caused the evolution of the eye?
start with that basic unit or protein, and I'll be generous enough as to not question where it came from, and how the cell adapted just the right molecular structure every time to develop rods and cones, how it converts light energy into an electrical signal. How the ciliary body, canal of Schlemm, extraoccular muscles all came to be as an entity let alone to work harmoniously in the human or animal body before we can discuss aberrations in that system as why they have come to be.

cheers
Reply

doorster
10-17-2008, 08:35 PM
Praise be to Allah; we praise Him, seek His forgiveness, and turn to Him in repentance.
We seek refuge with Him from the evils of our souls and the evils of our deeds. Whomever Allah guides, none can misguide, and whomever Allah leads astray, none can guide. I bear witness that there is no god but Allah alone without partner, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.
قُلْيَاأَيُّهَاالْكَافِرُونَ (١)
لاأَعْبُدُمَاتَعْبُدُونَ (٢)
وَلاأَنْتُمْعَابِدُونَمَاأَعْبُدُ (٣)
وَلاأَنَاعَابِدٌمَاعَبَدْتُمْ (٤)
وَلاأَنْتُمْعَابِدُونَمَاأَعْبُدُ (٥)
لَكُمْدِينُكُمْوَلِيَدِينِ (٦)
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
All I see is lots of words... inconclusive, absurd and unconvincing.

If you are happy to believe that some animals grew wings with the intention of using the atmosphere as a mode of transport and just unknowingly stumbled upon the laws of aeronautical physics then that's your choice.

Sorry but your theories are nothing but empty words to me. I am out of this debate because we could go around in circles and still never see eye to eye.

Peace out :peace:
:sl:
It is a futile effort to talk to these people, whenever lost for words, they start name calling and when given their own medicine back they cry foul and play the martyr.

The only reason I, occasionally, respond to these people is so that no innocent gets taken in by them, other than that I have no desire (or gift of the gab) to debate them nor do I have any need to placate them.


:w:
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Hamayun
10-17-2008, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
You know brother, the arrogant attitude does you no favour. This surrendering of the debate, shows that you wern't looking for a discussion to begin with - you just wanted to impose your beliefs on others. This is common, on those who do not have knowledge on a particular subject, but I will show patience and continue to answer any queries.

First, if you don't know about evolution, you ask, that is what people normally do. You could have asked, how did birds end up with wings to fly? But no, instead, tried to make it look like we believe in absurd science.

First, about the wings, nature didn't create them to make the creatures fly. However, just imagine, a mutant creature, with 5% (or less of a developped wing). His survival chance increases, simply due to that, he is able to land better (wind resistance etc), it is by natural selection, that it was favoured that he has this piece of wing - the wing did not form in the first place because nature wanted it but it was via mutation of the gene - which came about by evolution. Now, over millions of years, the creatures with longer wings, tended to survive better and do better in the environment. Over many many millions of years, you see them to have the wings they have today - that wing didn't just come overnight, or was not even the intention of nature. It happened via natural selection.

The ability to fly, was not even natures intent, that was a by product of the whole process.

You shouldn't exit so soon, because a lot of the things - I am happy to explain. Any claim you got, from "Why do apes still exist?" to "Why are polar bears white then?"
Sorry brother but I can't continue because even the theory about wings developing by mutation and then refining to an amazing level without any influence to me sounds too far fetched.

Reason why I exited is because all the answers I am getting are so far fetched they make me wonder how any of you can have the cheek to laugh at the idea of a creator.

Not convinced and frankly not buying it.. :) just like you don't buy the idea of intelligent design.

Peace :)

P.S. I will look forward to sister Skye's perspective on the "eye" issue since she has more of a medical background than any of us.

:w:
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جوري
10-17-2008, 08:52 PM
I should say this before hand since this topic has been discussed here ad nauseam

1- I'd have no problems with evolution by 'natural selection' whatsoever if it were capable of being tested (verified or falsified) by experiment or observation!
2- To have an actual name to the mutations that have caused this positive change.. throughout my study of science and genetics, I haven't come across one mutation causing a positive change..
3- Some sort of mathematical data to backup this constant transformation as per number of species we have, the time that it took for this earth to foster life, and a purpose behind it
4- Everything in science is constant to subject change, modalities that were used 5 years ago are obsolete today... so why do some folks insist of holding on to incredibly archaic ideas as if it were a religion all its own.. isn't in fact the nature of science is self-correction? why do we use extremely unobvious and utterly irreproducible 'scientific' data from a couple of centuries ago, when we have had ample time to translate it into facts-- save that it is anti-religious in content?

If this is your belief of how life came to be, than classify it under just that a notion in which you've placed some confidence.. No more no less!

:w:
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Hamayun
10-18-2008, 12:28 AM
Just remembered an article I read by a Scientist named Clyde Berkley. I am neutral about the article and don't want to debate on it. Just thought you may find it interesting.

The scientists seem to want to continue to push the theory of evolution as if it is a law and not a theory. I am also a scientist, and I believe that the theory of evolution is a failed scientific theory. We should be pushing alternatives to this theory. Creation is not an alternative since, although it may be true, it is not a scientific theory because it is based on faith.

However, the theory of evolution is also based on faith. It requires the DNA of one species to become the DNA of another species and not one scientist has a viable theory as to how this can happen. I was talking to a DNA expert, who also was an evolutionist, and I asked him if the theory of evolution required the DNA of one species to become the DNA of another species. He said that was true. I asked him how this could happen, and he said he did not know, but he believed it did occur. That is faith and anything based on faith is a religion and not science.

Clyde Berkley
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 04:01 AM
ad nauseam indeed.
it is true that evo has some holes to plug as of yet,but on the other extreme we have people who believe that cows were there 600mya...
Reply

جوري
10-18-2008, 04:10 AM
there is an answer to this in the Quran, for those who understand Arabic and actually look for it..

2: 30

AND LO!* Thy Sustainer said unto the angels: "Behold, I am about to establish upon earth one who shall inherit it."**

They said: "Wilt Thou place on it such as will spread corruption thereon and shed blood -whereas it is we who extol Thy limitless glory, and praise Thee, and hallow Thy name?"

[God] answered: "Verily, I know that which you do not know."




The earth was already in existence, and there was what was on it to spill blood, hence the query of the angels..
if you think about it.. humans appeared when conditions on earth fostered human life...

how they came to be, well there are several theories.. religion offers you one, dawkin offers you another.. if one wishes to subscribe to the 'rational' unicellular organism constanly evolving to bring you over 500,000,000, + species, it is their reserved prerogative. you can't impose either schools of thoughts on people.. it takes away their will to think for themselves..

:w:
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 04:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
The earth was already in existence, and there was what was on it to spill blood, hence the query of the angels..
if you think about it.. humans appeared when conditions on earth fostered human life...

...there are several theories.. religion offers you one, dawkin offers you another...you can't impose either schools of thoughts on people.. it takes away their will to think for themselves..

:w:
or the angels had seen it happen before, but the point here is that it is not clear how living creatures other than humans came to be, it doesn't say much about humans either at that.

the 'jannah' that Adam lived in is the same jannah the faithful go to in the hereafter on the prophet's authority?
again, evo is not a complete answer, but the creationist christians or the muslims copying them-like Oktar- are certainly not correct.

رُهاب النّص is a good description of an attitude prevalent since أهل الرأي-fuqaha'- lost to أهل الأثر-muhadditheen-,,,
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جوري
10-18-2008, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
or the angels had seen it happen before, but the point here is that it is not clear how living creatures other than humans came to be, it doesn't say much about humans either at that.
other creatures came to be here, the same way humans came to be here.. it is called creation. Eveything in nature happens for a reason blue crabs arrive in MD in the spring, at the same time young hatching birds looking to feed and that is exactly what they like to feed on..it is a cycle of life.. each thing has a time and a role to play.. Quite possible other creatures were there to make earth ready for what came after, it isn't unreasonable to think by observation of nature alone.

the 'jannah' that Adam lived in is the same jannah the faithful go to in the hereafter on what authority? not the prophet's as far as I know...

again, evo is not a complete answer, but the creationist christians or the muslims copying them-like Oktar- are certainly not correct.
This has nothing to do with Adam, or the prophet or religion..
this comes down to one fundamental thing
evolutionsts wish to use their theory as a weapon to deny God's existence or if not his existence, that he created us and basically forgot about us like a petri dish experiment, that we don't need him, he doesn't need us.. fine, the burden of proof is with them in this situation to establish the validity of these theories by controlled testing!
as I see it, (regardless of religion) God is the only truth left automatically unless a 'logical' scientifically verifiable alternative is specified!


:w:
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 05:07 AM
evo if proven disproves God?

now, I see as you do, but what it could be used for and what it actually says are not exactly synonymous.
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جوري
10-18-2008, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
yes I see as you do, but what it could be used for and what it actually says are not exactly synonymous...
What do you mean? I am sorry I am working on my other thread am not fully focused on this, I am not quite sure I understand? :-[

:w:
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 05:16 AM
I agree with you, evo seems to be used as an argument against God, which it is not, at least speaking of God from the Islamic perspective, and so speaking against that is needed. but evo as a theory is not antagonistic to God per se.

btw how long do you intend to keep that thread running:? nice effort though:)
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جوري
10-18-2008, 05:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
I agree with you, evo seems to be used as an argument against God, which it is not, at least speaking of God from the Islamic perspective, and so speaking against that is needed. but evo as a theory is not antagonistic to God per se.
Hence I stated

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
------or if not his existence, that he created us and basically forgot about us like a petri dish experiment, that we don't need him, he doesn't need us..
:w:

when you have such an agenda, it is no longer about science, at least in my humble opinion!

and on this note I bid you g'night :D

:w:
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 05:21 AM
ok...
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doorster
10-18-2008, 06:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
I agree with you, evo seems to be used as an argument against God, which it is not, at least speaking of God from the Islamic perspective, and so speaking against that is needed. but evo as a theory is not antagonistic to God per se.

btw how long do you intend to keep that thread running:? nice effort though:)
for as long as our evolution loving Qur'an haters keep posting or until LI-Staff lock the thread, I hope that sister will post at least until I can think of a reply to this insult, so far each and every reply (maybe 3) I made to that specific post got deleted,

Believing in Qur'an does not qualify the brother to be called a liar, charlatan and a clown, no! not on a Muslim site, nor should anyone be allowed to say that he should be charged with child abuse (no matter whether it is said in an eloquent manner or not).

By no means the brother is perfect or infallible but then again he is no worse than a certain other "scholar" from whose fatwa site everyone is forever quoting here (a man who recently declared holy war on mice (including Micky and Jerry) for being Satan's soldiers.

If there is any correction to be done of our brothers, it is we who should be doing it and we should not be taking lessons [in matters pertaining to Qur'an and religion] from a man whose religion tells him that all the people who are suffering today are actually paying for the bad things they did in their last incarnation

see you all later then
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SixTen
10-18-2008, 09:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Just remembered an article I read by a Scientist named Clyde Berkley. I am neutral about the article and don't want to debate on it. Just thought you may find it interesting.
You also have scientists, who claim the earth is 6000-9000 years old, gravity is a myth and all other crazy ideas, whats your point brother?

Anyway, I will leave you with this.

If tommorow, take the hypothetical scenario - that you are convinced of the evolution theory for whatever reason, somthing which came as proof to you or you read about it and it made sense to you. Would you leave Islam? Yes/No?

If no, what are we arguing about now? Hmm...
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Hamayun
10-18-2008, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
You also have scientists, who claim the earth is 6000-9000 years old, gravity is a myth and all other crazy ideas, whats your point brother?

Anyway, I will leave you with this.

If tommorow, take the hypothetical scenario - that you are convinced of the evolution theory for whatever reason, somthing which came as proof to you or you read about it and it made sense to you. Would you leave Islam? Yes/No?

If no, what are we arguing about now? Hmm...

No. I do not believe we evolved from apes. There is no proof of it and never will be.

My faith is in the Quran and Islam is my religion.

Same as your faith is in Darwin's theory and Evolutionism is your religion.
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SixTen
10-18-2008, 10:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
No. I do not believe we evolved from apes. There is no proof of it and never will be. My faith is in the Quran and Islam is my religion same as your faith is in Darwin's theory and Evolutionism is your religion.
Im taking you answered no? Nothing to argue about anymore.
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
for as long as our evolution loving Qur'an haters keep posting or until LI-Staff lock the thread

By no means the brother is perfect or infallible but then again he is no worse than a certain other "scholar" from whose fatwa site everyone is forever quoting here (a man who recently declared holy war on mice (including Micky and Jerry) for being Satan's soldiers.
I meant her thread, the medical one, not this one...

and I consider Al munajjid to be worse than Oktar when it comes to it.
narrow minded doesn't come close, and I wouldn't call him 'scholar' for the life of me.
our sorry state is mostly due to the misinterpretations of his likes. not only should they be rebuked, but people should be warned from listening to them...
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Hamayun
10-18-2008, 08:34 PM
Apart from the anti-evolution stuff (which apparently seems to be controversial) what do you think of Harun Yahya's other videos?

The ones against terrorism and all the other good stuff he has done?

I thoroughly enjoyed watching them.
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barney
10-18-2008, 08:43 PM
Regarding this "Atlas" being forcefed into schools.

How does the forced teaching of any religion sit with the Islamic command of "no compulsion in religion"?

Shouldnt accepting a religion be something that adults who have the maturity to knowlagably accept a religion be the ones that decide what to read in this area?
Thus you can avoid people who simply follow the religion, not from a love of Allah, but because its what they have done since they were born and are preprogrammed into ritualist worship rather than it coming from the heart?
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Ali_Cena
10-18-2008, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Regarding this "Atlas" being forcefed into schools.

How does the forced teaching of a religion

if evolution is being forced to be teached onto children as young as "8 years old" as dawkins state. then why shoudnt creation- which is what atlas of creations aims to do, not "force" children to become muslim. serisouly if you think that Atlas of Creation has got an aim of "forceing" especially "children" then, you work that out for yourself.
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Hamayun
10-18-2008, 08:57 PM
I do agree with you Barney although the same could be said about Darwin's theory.

If people are given both sides of the story then they can make their own mind up so its not all bad.

There should be no compulsion on anyone to believe either one of the two but they should be given the the option.
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barney
10-18-2008, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
if evolution is being forced to be teached onto children as young as "8 years old" as dawkins state. then why shoudnt creation- which is what atlas of creations aims to do, not "force" children to become muslim. serisouly if you think that Atlas of Creation has got an aim of "forceing" especially "children" then, you work that out for yourself.
I was talking about RE in general. It wont be a surprise that I dont think RE should be taught in a similar way that I dont think a session a week evry week should be spent on Harry Potter.

However if we are talking about why creationism shouldnt be taught then the answer is simple. It has no evidence and is provably incorrect, unless the concept was that a supremely intelligent and very powerful being started evolution and simply let it run. In that case the creator would have to be more complex than the creation, (the universe) and hence would need a creator itself in the old infinate cycle which we thrash out each day here on LI.

Simply put, evolution as it stands is the best and most solid explaination for life on earth or anywhere. Why teach anything else than the best?

I would teach creationism as a half day session saying that some people beleived it and that if the kids wanted to beleive it then they should fill their boots.
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Ali_Cena
10-18-2008, 09:08 PM
LOL if you want to get scientific and start debating then you should go on to this thread which is a sticky in the comparitive religion "Biological Evolution- An Islamic Perspective" it is thier where you can state why Evolution is better than Creation, when Evolutions Subtheories such as abiogensis and common descent are well not provable, not going to say anymore if you want to get scientific then go to the thread...
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Hamayun
10-18-2008, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Simply put, evolution as it stands is the best and most solid explaination for life on earth or anywhere. Why teach anything else than the best?

I would teach creationism as a half day session saying that some people beleived it and that if the kids wanted to beleive it then they should fill their boots.
lol thats reallly funny Barney because that is nothing more than your opinion.

It might be the "best" theory for you but there is a staggering number of people who find the theory of us evolving from Apes weak and absurd and find it is being pushed on them.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them stupid ^o)

There are millions of people (including respected scientists) who are far more intelligent and far more educated than you are who disagree with you. That doesn't make their opinion any less valid than yours???

You are just so full of yourself....
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yigiter187
10-19-2008, 08:17 AM
Thank you harun yahya..he is a great anti-evoulition...he has magnificent books and videos on Allah and his creations...
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Trumble
10-19-2008, 08:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
If people are given both sides of the story then they can make their own mind up so its not all bad.
They are not "both sides of the story", they are different stories. That phrase suggests creationism has some sort of scientific credibility when in fact it has none.. it is important here to distinguish between any evidence against evolutionary theory, or some elements of it, and evidence for creationism (of which there is precisely none whatsoever).

Evolution by natural selection is a scientific theory, creationism is not. If you are teaching science therefore, there is no requirement to talk about creationism, indeed doing so would only serve to confuse students as to what science actually is. If kids are taught all about creationism in religious studies class, that's fine.. and I wouldn't expect evolution to be mentioned in that context, as it wouldn't belong any more than creationism does in science class. Maybe philosophy class is the only place the twain might - and should - meet.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 09:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
if evolution is being forced to be teached onto children as young as "8 years old" as dawkins state. then why shoudnt creation- which is what atlas of creations aims to do, not "force" children to become muslim. serisouly if you think that Atlas of Creation has got an aim of "forceing" especially "children" then, you work that out for yourself.

Thats like saying, if the old age universe is being taught in the class - why not the young earth?

While your teaching people that dinasaurs existed - why not teach them that so did humans co-exist with dinasaurs, as so many christian scientists have claimed?

You see, the school should only teach what has scientific evidence.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
LOL if you want to get scientific and start debating then you should go on to this thread which is a sticky in the comparitive religion "Biological Evolution- An Islamic Perspective" it is thier where you can state why Evolution is better than Creation, when Evolutions Subtheories such as abiogensis and common descent are well not provable, not going to say anymore if you want to get scientific then go to the thread...
Can you prove creation? Nope, can you show people God, or prove his existance? Nope, can you prove your religion to be true, or any religion without a doubt? Nope, so should you abandon those altogether? You see, your logic has a double standard - can't prove it so rejecting it - despite the evidence.

By your theory, an atheist can go "I don't believe in God, because you can't prove it, I am not going to hear your theories, rhetorics, or evidence, I want to see God with my eyes, and if you can't show it I won't believe". This is like your claim, of wanting to see live macroevolution in your eyes, its as impossible as seeing God.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 10:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Can you prove creation? Nope
Oh! So us evolving from monkeys has been "proven"?

The source of Big Bang has been found and "proven"?

We have "proven" the source of all matter that exists in the universe?

Thats sorted then. :rollseyes Hilarious!!! ^o)
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Oh! So us evolving from monkeys has been "proven"?

The source of Big Bang has been found and "proven"?

We have "proven" the source of all matter that exists in the universe?

Thats sorted then. :rollseyes Hilarious!!! ^o)
How about you try to comprehend my post? You trying to ridicule my post, only makes you look more ignorant.

We all believe in things, which are not proven - because we are compelled by the evidence.

Hint? Don't knock somthing because it can't be proven 100% - actually research into it.

You can't even prove the existance of gravity, doesn't mean you don't believe it. It is still, "The theory of gravity" as you know. You probably accept the "Big Bang Theory" too, yet you probably know very little about it. What about the "atomic theory", none of these, can be proven 100%, but it doesn't stop you from believing the model atoms - why? Because you feel, their is sufficient evidence.

And, you still think evolution is humans evolving from monkeys? You know, if you wish to be arrogant, atleast be learned on the issue you wish to be arrogant on in future.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
You see, the school should only teach what has scientific evidence.
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Can you prove creation? Nope.
I was responding to that. In your own words if there is no evidence then why teach it???

Where is the evidence that there was a Big Bang? Where is the evidence that there was no Supernatural power behind the big bang?

So by those standards either we don't teach either or...

if we teach Evolutionism then why not Creation???

You have the double standards my friend not us!

P.S calling me ignorant doesn't make your post any more valid.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 11:02 AM
clever edit SixTen! good thing you did or I was gonna post:

look when these atheists are confronted and one refuses to convert over to their religion they become abusive and resort to personal insults.
daymn! you've thwarted me again (I would have looked like stupid moaning ninny,had I reported an abusive post and mods came to see a sanitized version)
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I was responding to that. In your own words if there is no evidence then why teach it???

Where is the evidence that there was a Big Bang? Where is the evidence that there was no Supernatural power behind the big bang?

So by those standards if it is ok to teach Evolutionism then why not Creation???

You have the double standards my friend not us!
Creation doesn't have scientific evidence - unless you care to share some? I mean, I believe in God, but I can't give any scientific evidence, (some may argue this point, but I believe the choice is rather personal, maybe philosophical). Hence, I do not say, everyone should be taught that God exists in school, that is a more personal aspect, as is, creation. You can believe in it, but how would you teach it in school? Think about it.

You will, say, animals came via creation, aka supernatural disposition. How do you teach that in class scientifically?
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
clever edit SixTen! good thing you did or I was gonna post:

look when these atheists are confronted and one refuse to convert over to their religion they become abusive and resort to personal insults.

daymn! you've thwarted me again (I would have looked like stupid moaning ninny,had I reported an abusive post and mods came to see a sanitized version)
Who said I was atheist? You better edit quick imo.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 11:09 AM
no sah bahs! iz it I who iz preaching descent from monkeys or is it someone else?
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:10 AM
So show me the evidence for Big Bang and also the evidence that it took place without any influence or intervention.

If you can not show me concrete evidence then by your own argument it should not be taught in schools.

Then you talk about double standards? Funny! :uuh:
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
no sah bahs! iz it I who iz preaching descent from monkeys or is it someone else?
Actually, its rather, descent is possible.

In the end of the day, you cannot prove nor disprove 100% evolution. Harun Yahya's book is intellectually bankrupt, in that it has bad science. My overall message is, that, evolution does not pose a problem for Islam - and that, making bad science as dawah (such as Harun Yahya), is actually anti-dawah for Islam.

I don't know if any of you looked through the theory, but, you know, it has such complexity - such wonders, that itself - is enough for me to believe their is somthing out their, that is, Allah.

Also, religion, to me, is like, what seperates man from animals. You see, I don't know if anyone read the selfish gene, its basically, the evolution of genes, whos only goal is to live on. This usually involves, a lot of immorals. I guess what I am saying is, it is as though, religion defines your life - from being a simply gene carrier - to have a purpose, which I think philosophically is quite a beutiful distinction, between that of animals, and that of humans. Animals, although follow altruism, it does not compare to the level of humans. A lot of the altruism of animals, is benefical to its survival and its foregoing of genes. So, imo, Allah, has made a beutiful way, of seperating humans to animals - and the state of selfishness, and immorality, is just going in the path of animals.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
So show me the evidence for Big Bang and also the evidence that it took place without any influence or intervention.

If you can not show me concrete evidence then by your own argument it should not be taught in schools.

Then you talk about double standards? Funny! :uuh:
You must think I am atheist brother :blind:, read above, however, we should be honest, we have no scientic evidence of influence or intervention - even though I do believe Allah exists.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 11:23 AM
Actually, its rather, descent is possible.
I rest my case!

just like woody Allen's Zee, I'll just stand aside and snicker at your cheek for calling others arrogant (and worse) while being full of it.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
I rest my case!

just like woody Allen's Zee, I'll just stand aside and s****** at your cheek for calling others arrogant (and worse) while being full of it.
How so, people claimed it as impossible, or ludicrous, or silly, that is arrogant, and also ignorant.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
we have no scientic evidence of influence or intervention - even though I do believe Allah exists.
Flipside???

We don't have any scientific evidence to support the theory of big bang and the infinite existence of matter and that it took place without influence or intervention. Does that mean we should stop teaching it in schools? There are several holes in the theory.

I am trying to show you your double standards...

While it is ok to teach one thing with no evidence it is not ok to teach the other based on your logic and judgement?

If that isn't double standards then what is?
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doorster
10-19-2008, 11:32 AM
edit: to clarify that this question is addressed to the preacher and not Br.Humyun

are you trying to make me commit to some kinda speculative theology?





The Censure of Kalâm by the Salaf
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Flipside???

We don't have any scientific evidence to support the theory of big bang and the infinite existence of matter and that it took place without influence or intervention. Does that mean we should stop teaching it in schools? There are several holes in the theory.

I am trying to show you your double standards...

While it is ok to teach one thing with no evidence it is not ok to teach the other based on your logic and judgement?

If that isn't double standards then what is?

How does the big bang not have evidence for it?

You see, you are confused. If I had stated, that people should be taught that God does not exist, you can say, I have double standard - for their is no scientific evidence to suggest he does not exist. I stated, in schools, things which have scientific evidence should be taught.

But according to you, anything should be taught? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want kids to be taught that Earth could be 6000-9000 years old, and that humans and dinasaurs co-existed. Would you?

I don't have a problem with children being taught the "atomic theory", even though it is not 100% proven. Do you have a problem?
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
edit: to clarify that this question is addressed to the preacher and not Br.Humyun

are you trying to make me commit to some kinda speculative theology?
I really don't care what you commit to personally, you can believe in an 6000 years old Earth if you want.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 11:39 AM
my my my! ever so gracious of you to allow me to choose my own beliefs
ta very much
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
How does the big bang not have evidence for it?
I am tired of repeating my question :rollseyes

Let me make it clearer...

I was referring to evidence that shows that there was no intervention or influence when the big bang occured.

Not that the big bang never occurred!!! All Muslims believe in the big bang in case you didn't notice???
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
my my my! ever so gracious of you to allow me to choose my own beliefs
ta very much
Your welcome.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
I really don't care what you commit to personally, you can believe in an 6000 years old Earth if you want.
That just proves you know nothing about Islam and we are just wasting time here.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I am tired of repeating my question :rollseyes

Let me make it clearer...

I was referring to evidence that shows that there was no intervention or influence when the big bang occured.

Not that the big bang never occurred!!! All Muslims believe in the big bang in case you didn't notice???
All muslims believe in the big bang? Have proof?

Anyway, I said their is no evidence of their being intervention or influence. This doesn't mean their wasn't, just their isn't any scientific evidence of such existing.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
That just proves you know nothing about Islam and we are just wasting time here.
Brave, although fallacious, nonetheless brave statements.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
All muslims believe in the big bang? Have proof?
[21:30]"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Anyway, I said their is no evidence of their being intervention or influence. This doesn't mean their wasn't, just their isn't any scientific evidence of such existing.
Then according to your own principles is it not wrong to tell children the big bang occurred all by itself and that matter has existed since infinity? Since you say there is no evidence of it?
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
[21:30]"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"
That verse is not talking about the big bang, rather that is what some people speculate that it could mean (although, it is not really strong).

Then according to your own principles is it not wrong to tell children the big bang occurred all by itself and that matter has existed since infinity? Since you say there is no evidence of it?
If you mean, to teach children that the big bang means that no God exists - then yes, it is wrong. The only things that should be taught about the big bang, is what has scientific evidence.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 11:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
That verse is not talking about the big bang, rather that is what some people speculate that it could mean (although, it is not really strong).
lol and how did you come to that conclusion?

It is talking about the universe coming into existence from a single explosion.

It is literally spelling it out for you. Does it have to be any more blatant??? :?


format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen

If you mean, to teach children that the big bang means that no God exists - then yes, it is wrong. The only things that should be taught about the big bang, is what has scientific evidence.
Where is the evidence that the big bang was independent and matter was here since infinity? Care to share it with us?
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 11:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
lol and how did you come to that conclusion?

It is talking about the universe coming into existence from a single explosion.

It is literally spelling it out for you. Does it have to be any more blatant??? :?
That is another issue, which we could talk about via PM if you wish (as it is a long issue altogether). Also, are you trying to insult my intelligence? It says you are 30, how about act your age.

Where is the evidence that the big bang was independent and matter was here since infinity? Care to share it with us?
I will say this one last time, not going to repeat myself again.

Their is, no evidence THAT IT WAS DEPENDANT, that is, no scientific evidence exists that INTERVENTION OR INFLUENCE occured. You can believe, intervention, or influence, existed, LIKE ME, but, we cannot prove it - nor provide evidence that Allah had influenced it, in a scientific way.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 12:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
That is another issue, which we could talk about via PM if you wish (as it is a long issue altogether). Also, are you trying to insult my intelligent? It says you are 30, how about act your age.
Another issue? Long debate? Its only one paragraph that says Allah created the universe from an explosion. Plain and simple. I have no need to debate about it. Thanks for your offer anyway :)

I am not trying to insult your intelligence but maybe you feel that way because of your own complexes.

I will say this one last time, not going to repeat myself again.

Their is, no evidence THAT IT WAS DEPENDANT, that is, no scientific evidence exists that INTERVENTION OR INFLUENCE occured. You can believe, intervention, or influence, existed, LIKE ME, but, we cannot prove it - nor provide evidence that Allah had influenced it, in a scientific way.
I know you said that many times but you fail to understand my argument. Unlike you I will not repeat myself again.

Have a nice day. Peace :peace:
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Another issue? Long debate? Its only one paragraph that says Allah created the universe from an explosion. Plain and simple. I have no need to debate about it. Thanks for your offer anyway :)

I am not trying to insult your intelligence but maybe you feel that way because of your own complexes.
I will accept that the Qur'an talks about the big bang, if you can show me tafsir (Qur'an commentary), of early muslim scholars, who have talked about this verse, in a manner in which it constitutes to the big bang theory.

A tafsir of Al-Jalalyn is:

Have they not ([one may] read a-wa-lam or a-lam) realised, [have they not] come to know, those who disbelieve, that the heavens and the earth were closed together and then We parted them, We made seven heavens and seven earths — or [it is meant] that the heaven was parted and began to rain, when it did not use to do so, and that the earth was parted and began to produce plants, when it did not use to do so; and We made, of water, [the water] that falls from the heaven and that springs from the earth, every living thing?, in the way of plants and otherwise: in other words, water is the cause of such [things] having life. Will they not then believe?, by affirming My Oneness?
It doesn't talk about big bang.
The Qur'an verse states:

"The heaven and the Earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder"

You see, the age of the universe, is estimated at around 13-15 billion years. The Earth, only came into it in the last 4.5 billion years.

So, at the point of big bang, their really was no Earth, the Earth was formed far later. If someone has, a clear explanation of this tafsir, I would be grateful. As tafsir by opinon is wrong, we cannot indulge realistically what this is, be it in a metaphorical state.

Some try to talk about, expansion, in verse 51:47, which could equate to the expanding universe, but I would say, an accurate translation, is that it talks of a vast universe, which also follows onto from the tafsir

And the heaven, We built it with might, and indeed We are powerful (one says āda’l-rajulu or ya’īdu, to mean, ‘he is strong’; and awsa‘a’l-rajulu, to mean, ‘he has become capable [dhū sa‘a] and strong’).
I should also note, what does it mean to seperate the heaven and Earth? Because, the big bang, doesn't seperate anything, do you see brother? Was the singularity, stuck to the heaven?

AS you know brother, the universe once did not exist, with the Earth and so fourth. Everyone was, so to say, in the "heavenly" kingdoms. However, humans, being put on Earth, as opposed to heaven, is what the seperation could be talking about (would require confirmation).

Going back to my previous points, if this verse was directed at the big bang - it would be a scientific fault (or atleast, would not agree with the big bang theory) - as no Earth existed, prior to the big bang, during it and billions of years after it.

So, this verse cannot be attributed to the big bang, simply because, it would mean for contradiction, and also it doesn't really make sense. Also, it would mean, that previous generations did not know what this verse means - and we know - that the salaaf had a greater understanding of the Qur'an than anyone today - so I don't buy that a verse existed that no one knew the meaning of truly until the last 200 years.


I know you said that many times but you fail to understand my argument. Unlike you I will not repeat myself again.

Have a nice day. Peace :peace:
You too.
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Trumble
10-19-2008, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
[21:30]"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"
Which translation is that, please, Hamayun? I am unable to find one that uses the word 'exploded'? Quite apart from which the 'heaven' and 'earth' were never 'one solid mass', the earth being formed a very long time after the 'heavens'. In other words, if that is supposed to be science (which it isn't, of course) it is wrong.

Qur'anic sciento-tosh aside, there seems to be an awful lot of confusion going on here about 'evidence' and 'proof'. As scientific terms, at least, they are far from synonymous. There IS plenty of evidence both that the Big Bang occurred, and that evolution by natural selection occurred and continues to occur. And, indeed, that the theories of quantum mechanics and gravity might be right, and so on. There is no proof regarding any of them, and never can be, and demands to see it represent a fundamental misunderstanding about what science actually is. NO scientific theory can ever be 'proven', they can only be disproven.

Theories are accepted on the basis of their ability to explain and predict the available empirical evidence. When another theory comes along that does it better, the former one is refined or in some cases replaced completely. Evolution is generally accepted because it is the scientific theory that best explains the facts, and there are no credible alternatives, at present anyway. Creationism never will be a scientific theory because it explains nothing whatsoever... even if God created the universe, or life, or man HOW did He do it? What physical processes were involved? Just invoking God is an excuse for not providing an explanation, not providing one - even if you accept God exists.

In short, talk of 'proof' is nonsense in the context of an evolution v. creationism debate as it is judged according to a totally different standard in each case. The good news for creationists is that, unlike evolution, creationism can no more be disproven than it can be proven!
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 01:04 PM
I overlooked, his translation too - seems very psuedo-science, probably a Naikh/Yahya edition. Solid mass, exploded etc?

Anyway, that version doesn't make sense either, Earth didn't exist during the big bang. Exactly how was Earth attached to the heaven again? Also, the Earth is not detached from the Universe, so it definatly wasn't cloved ASUNDER from the universe (if you take heaven to imply Universe). The Earth formed 8-9 billions years after the big bang, their was no seperation. So, really, none of these, make sense.
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Trumble
10-19-2008, 01:13 PM
Found it, HERE in something called the 'authorized English version', translated by Rashad Khalifa. It doesn't say who 'authorized' it.

Whatever Dr Khalifa's qualifications and expertise may be, the fact that the quoted passage appears immediately after (presumably) his own annotation;

The Big Bang Theory confirmed
rather speaks for itself. :rollseyes

Pickthal's translation is;

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

No doubt an Arabic speaker will tell us in due course which is actually closest, or whether another alternative is better than either.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 01:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Found it, HERE in something called the 'authorized English version', translated by Rashad Khalifa. It doesn't say who 'authorized' it.

Whatever Dr Khalifa's qualifications and expertise may be, the fact that the quoted passage appears immediately after (presumably) his own annotation;



rather speaks for itself. :rollseyes

Hmm, don't think LI would appreciate the works of Khalifa, he has been known to have tampered with Islam, and has takfir made on him by various scholars (he claims to be a messenger from God, he has a website (which I won't link), where you can find many of his controversial views. His translation definatly isn't viable. I believe he also, deleted 2 Quran verses, to justify his number 19 miracle. He is also a stern hadith rejector.

I wonder how Hamayun would feel, knowing that, Khalifa also believes, the evolution theory is confirmed in the Qur'an.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 01:17 PM
whats the difference between this >> do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?
and what Hamayun posted?
No doubt an Arabic speaker will tell us in due course which is actually closest, or whether another alternative is better than either.
Not allowed here! -- nothing posted by Muslims here is authentic unless its a copy/paste from al-Munajjid -- as can be seen in wife beating thread

Also I cant afford to waste much time here since mods keep deleting my posts on mere suspicion of me being disagreeable to their Mullahs at islamqa fatwa shop

I would ask Br.Hamayun to give up too, since the Mods are lacking the understanding themselves as well as not knowing what being even handed means

Note: it takes me hours to translate my thoughts from Urdu into something resembling English with help from various dictionaries then it takes one click of their delete button and its gone
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
whats the difference between this >> do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?
and what Hamayun posted?
It added a few descriptions, which were neither in the authentic translations, or tafsirs.

Notably, solid mass - this is added to suggest confirmation, of the dense singularity state at the big bang.

and also, explosion, another description not in either tafsir or authentic translations.

I cant afford to waste much time here since mods keep deleting my posts on mere suspicion of me being disagreeable to their Mullahs at islamqa fatwa shop
Funnily, I am discussing with mods, to try remove the censorship of other opinions.

I would ask Br.Hamayun to give up too, since the Mods are lacking the understanding themselves as well as not knowing what being even handed means
You should probably advise him also, not to post Khalifa material.
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Trumble
10-19-2008, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
Not allowed here! -- nothing posted by Muslims here is authentic unless its a copy/paste from al-Munajjid
My apologies, on re-reading I didn't make myself clear. I didn't intend to ask for an for an interpretation of the whole verse, just the most appropriate translation into English of a particular word (or phrase), i.e. "explosion". The resident Qur'anic Arabic experts such as Skye and Woodrow have never had any problem with doing that, and their comments have been most informative to muslims and non-muslims alike.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
My apologies, on re-reading I didn't make myself clear. I didn't intend to ask for an for an interpretation of the whole verse, just the most appropriate translation into English of a particular word (or phrase), i.e. "explosion". The resident Qur'anic Arabic experts such as Skye and Woodrow have never had any problem with doing that, and their comments have been most informative to muslims and non-muslims alike.
ok, I've sent a PM to Br. Woodrow asking for help
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Woodrow
10-19-2008, 02:40 PM
At the moment I am traveling and posting wireless on the laptop and have little time to post. I will address this thread this evening when I stop for the night.
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Hamayun
10-19-2008, 02:43 PM
I hear you brother doorster. I do indeed give up.

"Clove them asunder" or "exploded" either way you look at it... ah what's the point...

Doesn't matter. I have nothing to gain from this debate so why waste my time.

toodle-pip :)
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Ali_Cena
10-19-2008, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Brave, although fallacious, nonetheless brave statements.
What do you mean "brave", you really do know nothing about islam, becuase no where in the Quran-e-Shariffe does it say that the earth is 6000 years old.

so that does show that you have no understanding of islam.
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
What do you mean "brave", you really do know nothing about islam, becuase no where in the Quran-e-Shariffe does it say that the earth is 6000 years old.

so that does show that you have no understanding of islam.
Now, Einstein, just show me where I said that the Qur'an does say the Earth is 6000 years old?

I was merely stating, that, doorster, can believe WHATEVER HE WANTS, that I am not forcing him to accept my opinions - even if its something crazy like the Earth is 6000 years old.
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doorster
10-19-2008, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Now, Einstein, just show me where I said that the Qur'an does say the Earth is 6000 years old?

I was merely stating, that, doorster, can believe WHATEVER HE WANTS, that I am not forcing him to accept my opinions - even if its something crazy like the Earth is 6000 years old.
there was you accusing others of arrogance yet you are full of it, it looks as our complaints of personal abuse/insults from you fall on deaf ears, it looks as if they are repping you instead of giving you infractions

weird place!
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SixTen
10-19-2008, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
there was you accusing others of arrogance yet you are full of it, it looks as our complaints of personal abuse/insults from you fall on deaf ears, it looks as if they are repping you instead of giving you infractions

weird place!
How was my comment arrogant? This guy comes, doesn't comprehend my post, and then continues to insult by stating I know nothing about Islam and states somthing that is competly made up (that I am implying 6000 years exists in Qur'an).

Doorster, was you seriously expecting me, to reply, cheerfully, with flowers and chocolates to add to the guy?
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Woodrow
10-20-2008, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
My apologies, on re-reading I didn't make myself clear. I didn't intend to ask for an for an interpretation of the whole verse, just the most appropriate translation into English of a particular word (or phrase), i.e. "explosion". The resident Qur'anic Arabic experts such as Skye and Woodrow have never had any problem with doing that, and their comments have been most informative to muslims and non-muslims alike.
Although I take that as a compliment, I am very far from being an Arabic expert. But, I do have some good Arabic dictionaries and find them better to use that trying to find a translation of a specific word.

No words translate very well into another word, the best that can be found in a translation is more of a synonom, similar meaning but not the exact definition of the word. Far better to find a definition and try to explain in terms of the definition, rather than reducing it to one word.

That is what seems to be happening in this thread. Translations are used and the actual meaning is lost or changed.
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Woodrow
10-20-2008, 03:11 PM
Now to begin addressing this thread.

On a personal basis I like Harun Yaha's books. But, I do often find error in his "scientific" explanations. I persoanly feel he may mislead some people if they view his explantations as "scientific proof" and accept them as tasfir.

But, to read his books with the idea of seeing possibilities and with some facts backing up the possibilities, they seem to be good food for thought and can lead to beneficial discussions.
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doorster
10-20-2008, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Now to begin addressing this thread.

On a personal basis I like Harun Yaha's books. But, I do often find error in his "scientific" explanations. I personally feel he may mislead some people if they view his explanations as "scientific proof" and accept them as tasfir.

But, to read his books with the idea of seeing possibilities and with some facts backing up the possibilities, they seem to be good food for thought and can lead to beneficial discussions.
:sl:

the question of these people's right to call him a liar, charlatan etc. is still outstanding

for reference see http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1027183

:w:
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root
10-20-2008, 05:28 PM
It would make for an interesting RE Lesson....

I hear that the Church Of The Flying Sphagetti Monster are also about to send it's books to schools too. Great, let's tech the controversy :D
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doorster
10-20-2008, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
It would make for an interesting RE Lesson....

I hear that the Church Of The Flying Sphagetti Monster are also about to send it's books to schools too. Great, let's tech the controversy :D
I wish the non-Muslims in this thread would actually quote something from the book and refute it in a civil manner rather than just being flippant and talking bull.

also these mods who say that Harun might/could/is misleading Muslims, could post a paragraph or two from the book to show how we are being misled. that would make more sense as well as save bandwidth instead of just letting them play about in over 50 threads throughout the site

if LiStaff would post and refute parts from Harun's book, surely that would get them more approval from these people and get rid of us at same time
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Hamayun
10-20-2008, 06:33 PM
Here is an article I read on the BBC website. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I hope you will too..





Discrepancies in the Theory of Evolution

Many people believe that science has proven that life and all it encompasses evolved by infinitesimal gradiations, a theory we call evolution. According to creationist theory, this is simply not true. The theory of evolution has many discrepancies and often conflicts with reality. Let us take a walk down popular science's timeline of the universe, and examine it objectively and scientifically.
Prebiological Evolution
First let us look at the theory of evolution itself. Before life can evolve from one thing to another it must be created in its simplest form. All life undergoes something called protein 'transcription' and 'translation'.
It starts with DNA. DNA is described as a twisted ladder. Now try making a ladder with as many rungs as the Encyclopaedia Britannica has letters! Furthermore, these letters - or 'bases' - must be in a set order according to what organism they are in. In short, DNA is like a book. A book cannot be made by throwing random letters of the alphabet together. The letters must be carefully selected by an intelligent source - the author. This means DNA needs a writer, and we can certainly suppose that the being who created the universe also 'writes' DNA.
DNA must interact with mRNA1 to continue the transcription and translation. mRNA is created base by base copying the opposite of DNA. Then this mRNA goes through a ribosome (or rRNA2) and connects with tRNA3. tRNA is a smaller version of mRNA that picks up complex organic compounds called amino acids. When tRNA and mRNA meet they form a long chain of amino acids called a protein. You can see now how hard it is for these compounds to simply come together. The odds against these five compounds being randomly formed in a pool of muck just after the planet has cooled and then to have suddenly begun this cycle are astronomical, if not impossible, yet life according to evolution requires that this happen. In fact, life requires that this happen.
In 1953, a scientist named Stanley Miller mixed several chemicals is a glass tube, zapped them with electricity, and subsequently created the previously-mentioned amino acids. This, he said, was probably what happened in that pool of muck billions of years ago to create life. Newspapers cited a breakthrough and subsequent experiments popped up, some using heat instead of electricity, others ultraviolet rays to mimic the sun.
But organisms only use a specific kind of amino acids known as 'left handed'. Miller's amino acids were of both kinds. There is no natural process that creates only left-handed, life-supporting amino acids.
Five years later, a chemist named Sidney Fox boiled already existing amino acids in water, and some of them formed protein-like chains of amino acids. Again, the scientific community cited a breakthrough. But lifeforms require that proteins are linked by peptide bonds. Fox's protein-like structures had all sorts of different kinds of bonds, rendering them useless to a living organism. Also, a true protein has its amino acids linked in a particular order. Fox's protein-like structures were the equivalent of throwing Scrabble letters on the floor and calling it a sentence.
In both of these experiments, the products were immediately put in tubes in a dark place where they would be incapable of breaking down again. Why? Because as soon as these compounds are created they will fall apart unless their environment changes to a more suitable form. In short, the environment necessary for amino acids to be created is not the same as the environment that will keep them alive. This is because heat, electricity and ultraviolet rays will destroy amino acids. If one wants to create amino acids, one must remove the very things that created them after they are created! Fox and Miller have merely proved that even the tiniest organic molecules can only be created by an intelligent force.
Fossils
In 1859, Charles Darwin published the first widely accepted theory of evolution in the tome The Origin of the Species, and the outcry was almost immediate. Contrary to popular belief, though, this disgruntlement came mostly from geologists, not clergymen. The fossil record back then (and still today) was nearly totally void of transitional species. If species are continually mutating, never constant, why do we continually find several of the same, certain prehistoric creatures, but never any that appear to be in transition? Why do paleontologists find lots of dinosaurs but never where dinosaurs come from, nor what they turned into?
In Darwin's own words, 'Why, if species have descended by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of species being, as we see them, well defined?' It is an excellent question, which he answers himself, 'I can give no satisfactory answer.'
So, resuming our trip through history, let us examine the most abundantly fossilised life forms: vertebrates. These are animals with backbones, including fish, reptiles, mammals, birds and so on.
Fish to Amphibians
The evolutionary thesis states that certain fish species evolved the ability to crawl out of the water and then evolved the other amphibious characteristics. There is no specific fossil fish species yet identified as an amphibian ancestor, but an extinct order known as the rhipsodians are dubbed by Darwinists as the 'ancestral group'. Their skeletal features have certain characteristics that resemble early amphibians, but according to the textbook Vertebrate History by Barbara Stahl, 'none of the known fishes is thought to be directly ancestral to the earliest land vertebrates. Most of them lived after the first amphibians appeared, and those that came before show no evidence of developing the stout limbs and ribs that characterise the primitive tetrapods.' There are other inconsistencies, such as the major differences in the reproductive systems of fish and amphibians.
In 1938, a coelacanth, a fish thought to have been extinct for 70 million years, was caught in the Indian ocean. Scientists thought that as it was a close relative of the rhipsodians it would offer new information about the soft body parts of intermediate ancestors of amphibians and fish. But, in the dissection, its internal organs showed no sign of being pre-adapted to land, nor did it give any indication of how a fish becomes an amphibian. This suggests an examination of the soft body parts of rhipsodians would be equally disappointing to the theory of evolution.
Amphibians to Reptiles
This transition is currently the least explicable. To date there is no satisfactory candidate to document it. There are fossil amphibians called seymouria that have certain reptile characteristics in their skeletal structure, but recently they have been re-labelled true amphibians. They also appear far too late in the fossil record anyway.
The most important differences between reptiles and amphibians, however, involve the soft body parts. And these, of course, cannot be fossilised. The main difficulty for Darwinists attempting to explain this transition is the vast differences in the reproductive system of these two kingdoms. Amphibian eggs are laid underwater and the hatched larvae undergo a complex metamorphosis before they become adults, whereas reptiles lay hard, shell-covered eggs on land and the young are perfect replicas of the adults. No Darwinian explanation yet exists as to how amphibians developed these reptilian reproductive processes.
Reptiles to Mammals
There are plenty of possible transitional species for this mutation, and at first a reptile to mammal transition seems quite plausible. It has even been called the 'crown jewel' of the fossil record. There is a large reptilian order called therapsida, of which some fossils have features intermediate between mammal and reptile. A fossil is considered reptilian if it has more than one bone in its jaw and if one particular jawbone, the articulator bone, connects to the skull's quadrate bone. Mammal fossils have one jawbone, the dentary bone, which connects to the squamosal bone in the skull. Assuming this criterion, some therapsids have slight mammalian characteristics, and a few could reasonably be classified as either reptiles or mammals.
Douglas Futuyuma, evolutionary biologist, writes, 'The gradual transition from therapsids to mammals is so abundantly documented by scores of species in every stage of transition that it is impossible to tell which therapsid species were actual ancestors of modern mammals.' But Darwinian transformation requires a single line of descent, so large numbers of eligible candidates prove nothing. Furthermore, the therapsids do not come in the chronological order required of them by Darwinism. What this means is, therapsid fossils do not go from most reptilian jawbone to most mammalian jawbone in chronological order. As famous Darwin critic Philip Johnson puts it, 'An artificial line of descent [between reptiles and mammals] can be constructed, but only by arbitrarily mixing species of different subgroups, and by arranging them out of chronological order. If [the evolutionary] hypothesis is that mammals evolved from therapsids only once... then most of the therapsids with mammal-like characteristics were not part of a macroevolutionary transition. If most were not, perhaps all were not.'
Besides, the only things therapsids have in common with mammals are the ear and jaw bones. One realises there is a great deal more explaining to do when one observes the vast differences in reptilian and mammalian reproductive systems and other soft body parts. If you go further, things get even trickier, especially trying to explain the mutations behind the diversity of mammals, a group that includes such varieties as monkeys, horses, platypuses, bats, whales, squirrels, polar bears, white tailed deer, etc. Again Philip Johnson is critical saying, 'If mammals are a monophyletic4 group, then the Darwinist model requires that every one of the groups have descended from a single, unidentified small land mammal. Huge numbers of intermediate species in the direct line of transition would have had to exist, but the fossil record fails to record them.'
Reptiles to Birds
Archaeopteryx is an approximately 145 million-year-old bird with skeletal features similar to a small dinosaur called compsognathus. It is birdlike in that it has wings, feathers and a wishbone, but it has a mouthful of teeth and claws on its wings. The question here is whether archaeopteyx is a direct link between reptiles and birds, or just a peculiar misfit such as the modern platypus. Until recently, it was regarded as a misfit because the next oldest birds were aquatic divers, unlikely descendants of archaeopteyx. That changed when two fossil birds with certain reptilian features, dated approximately 10 and 20 million years after archaeopteryx, were found - one in China, one in Spain. There is, however, little evidence that they are related to archaeopteryx. Now, the autheniticity of archaeopteryx has been called into question. Many scientists in good standing believe it was a hoax.
Whatever is concluded about archaeopteryx, questions still arise as to how feathered wings, the distinct avian lung, and other body parts evolved, not to mention the ability to fly. Similar to mammals, birds are a very diversified kingdom containing such species as the emu, the sparrow and the penguin, and it is difficult to explain how they evolved from a single ancestor through viable intermediate stages.
Apes to Humans
Anthropology, the study of human origins, sometimes appears to have more evidence backing it because of its nomenclature. Nebraska man and Piltdown Man were discovered to be hoaxes, Neanderthals are considered as a subspecies, not an ancestor, and Cro-Magnon man is simply modern man. That leaves us with four fossil species, Australopithecus arensis, A. africanus, Homo habilis, and Homo erectus.
The first two, known as the australopithecines, are apes no more technologically or cerebrally developed than modern gorillas or chimpanzees, but supposedly walked upright. However, one of Britain's most prestigious primate experts, Solly Zuckerman, recently performed biometric testing on them and concluded that 'the anatomical basis for the claim that [they] walked and ran upright like man is so much more flimsy than the evidence which points to the conclusions that their gait was some variant of what one sees in subhuman primates that it remains unacceptable.' Zuckerman sees the evolution of man from apes as self evident, but tends to see much of the fossil evidence as bunk. He compared it to parapsychology and claimed the amount of radical speculation 'is so astonishing that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is yet to be found in this field at all.' Other experts in good standing claim that the australopithecines were actually distinct species.
Homo habilis or 'handy man' is an ape that was given status as a human ancestor because it was found near primitive tools that it was presumed to have used. But many prestigious anthropologists now deny that he ever used tools, or even that he ever existed.
The popular current hypothesis known as the 'mitochondrial Eve' theory states that humans came from Africa less that 200,000 years ago, thus disqualifying the current Homo erectus fossils, which are older than 200,000 years. However, H. erectus is still listed as a human ancestor.
Why is there so much confusion in this field? Well, emotions often run amok in studies of one's own ancestry. Robert Lewin, in his book Human Evolution, reports numerous examples of subjectivity. He states, 'There is something inexpressibly moving about cradling in one's hands a cranium drawn from one's own ancestry.' What a way to lower objectivity!
Most Creationists do not deny the possibility that these four species might have existed, and therefore the possible transitional steps between apes and humans, but not the smooth sequence of developments proclaimed by Darwinists.
Contd...
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Hamayun
10-20-2008, 06:35 PM
And this 2nd part especially relates to the post about wings of a bird earlier...

Irreducible Complexity
Even in the present, many organisms and parts of organisms do not appear to have evolved from lesser things. This is because they are 'irreducibly compex' lifeforms. Irreducible complexity is a concept that biochemistry professor Michael Behe developed in his book, Darwin's Black Box. If something is made of interacting parts that all work together, then it is referred to as irreducibly complex. Behe uses a mousetrap as his example. A mousetrap cannot be assembled through gradual improvement. You cannot start with a wooden base, catching a few mice, then add a hammer, and catch more, then add a spring, improving it further. To even begin catching mice one must assemble all the components completely with design and intent. Furthermore, if one of these parts changes or evolves independently, the entire thing will stop working. The mousetrap, for instance, will become useless if even one part malfunctions.
Likewise, many biological structures are irreducibly complex. Bats are a well known example. They are said to have evolved from a small rodent whose front toes became wings. This presents a multitude of problems. As the front toes grow skin between them, the creature has limbs that are too long to run, or even walk well, yet too short to help it fly. There is no plausible way that a bat wing can evolve from a rodent's front toes. The fossil record supports this, because the first time bats are seen in the fossil record, they have completely developed wings and are virtually identical to modern bats.
Now consider the eye. Suppose that before animals had sight, one species decided it would be advantageous to be able to decrypt light rays. So, what do they evolve first? The retina? The iris? The eye is made of many tiny parts, each totally useless without the others. The probability that a genetic mutation that would create each of these at the same time in the same organism is zero. If, however one organism evolved just a retina, then the logic of Darwin suggests that the only solution is to rid oneself of useless traits replacing them with beneficial ones, so the idea of the eye evolving one segment at a time is bogus also.
Richard Dawkins gives the explanation that some one-celled protozoa have a light sensitive spot with a pigment screen behind it, and some multi-celled organisms have the same thing with cup-shaped cells. Then there is the nautilus which, has a pinhole eye with no lens, and the squid eye, which incorporates the lens.
But these types of eye involve different types of structures rather than a series of similar structures becoming improved, and are thus not thought to have evolved from each other. Besides, even the first step, a light-sensitive spot, is considered irreducibly complex. This apparatus can only detect some shadows, but it requires a multitude of inter-related, complex chemical reactions to work. This excerpt from a book describes it: 'A photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which changes to trans-retinal, which forces a change in the shape of a protein called rhodopsin, which sticks to another protein called transductin, which binds with another molecule...' As for those cup-shaped cells, there are dozens of proteins controlling cell structure and shape. All these would have to be spontaneously created for flat sensory cells to become cup-shaped. Even if the eye did evolve, so many different kind of species have eyes, that according to evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr, the eye would have had to evolve over 40 times to achieve its current popularity, an incredibly implausible idea.
A bird is another perfect example. A bird's entire body is built for flight. If even the slightest major mutation occurs, a bird becomes incapable of flight. If some prehistoric reptile felt the urge to fly, evolving something even as complex as wings would do no good. In fact, it would be a disadvantage to lug those wings around.
The only plausible explanation for irreducibly complex biological tissue is an intelligent creator.
So Why is the Theory of Evolution so Popular?
Richard Dawkins once said that 'Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually-fulfilled athiest.' Perhaps that is why Creationists are stereotyped as a group of Bible thumpers and scientifically-ignorant backwater folk. Evolution is taught in schools all over the world, not as a theory, but a fact.
Genetic variation is often mistaken as proof of evolution. These are often referred to as examples of 'evolution in action'. Let us examine some of these.
Evolutionary biologist Douglas Futuyama has put together a summary of examples of evolution in action in one of his books:
  • Some bacteria develop resistance to certain antibiotics. Likewise, many insects resist pesticides.
  • After a massive storm in Massachusetts, hundreds of dead birds littered the countryside. A scientist named Bumpus collected the survivors and killed them, then compared their skeletons with the birds that had died in the storm. He found that, though the size difference was minute, larger birds survived more frequently than smaller ones.
  • Scientists have observed that some mice will stop reproducing when their local population is 'flooded' with a gene that causes their males to be sterile.
  • In 1977, a drought on the Galapagos Islands forced Darwin's famous finches to eat larger seeds. For a while, many smaller finches died because they had trouble eating the bigger seeds.
There is no reason to doubt that the strongest organisms prosper, nor that certain circumstances make drug-resistant bacteria more prolific. The problem here is, none of these explain how organisms become other organisms, how organs become other organs, or even how the most minor changes in an organism can become permanent. All of these examples are isolated, special circumstances. Philip Johnson comments, 'That larger birds have an advantage over smaller birds in high winds or droughts has no tendency whatever to prove that similar factors caused birds to come into existence in the first place.' French zoologist Pierre Grasse says, 'The 'evolution in action' of J Huxley and other biologists is simply the observation of demographic facts, local fluctuations of genotypes, geographical distributions. Often the species concerned have remained practically unchanged for hundreds of centuries! Fluctuation as a result of circumstances, with prior modification of the genome, does not imply evolution...'
Indeed, science itself does not imply evolution. Life is far too complex to have been created by a natural force, and natural history contradicts the necessary timeline of evolution. Much of the basis for the theory of evolution is based on false or exaggerated information.
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Abdul Fattah
10-20-2008, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Anyone pushing Yahya's garbage onto innocent young minds should be prosecuted for child abuse. Please note I am not criticising creationist literature per se, but Yahya's version of it which is a mixture of half-truths, lies and distortions. The man is a charlatan and a clown.
Yes, I concur. It's quite sad, it even damages the creationists viewpoint, and I'm sure plenty of atheistic teachers will have a field-day with many of the flawed arguments.
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