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The Khan
10-15-2008, 11:13 PM
:sl:

I have created this thread to discuss the origins of the Holy Ghost/Spirit in Christianity. As we all know, the trinitarian concept consists of "God the father", "God the son", and "God the holy ghost".

Numerous threads have popped up here to discuss the trinity concept, particularly regarding God the son.

Hence, I've decided to express my view regarding the concept of the Holy Ghost and Mariolatry (worship of the Virgin Mary, may Allah be pleased with her).

This is what Wikipedia says about the Holy Spirit in brief:

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit leads people to faith in Jesus and gives them the ability to lead a Christian life. The Holy Spirit dwells inside every Christian, each one's body being his temple (1 Corinthians 3:16). The Holy Spirit is depicted as a 'Counselor' or 'Helper' (paracletus in Latin, derived from Greek), guiding people in the way of the truth. The Holy Spirit's action in one's life is believed to produce positive results, known as the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. A list of "spiritual gifts" that may be bestowed include the charismatic gifts of prophecy, tongues, healing, and knowledge. Christians holding a view known as cessationism believe these gifts were given only in New Testament times. Christians almost universally agree that certain spiritual gifts are still in effect today, including the gifts of ministry, teaching, giving, leadership, and mercy (see, e.g. Romans 12:6-8). The experience of the Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to as being anointed.
When searching the forum, I discovered this thread regarding the Islamic view: http://www.islamicboard.com/aqeedah/...ly-spirit.html

Now, I shall discuss the pagan origins of the Holy Ghost in the trinity. First, this image:



I have linked this image from wikipedia. The description is as follows: The Descent of the Holy Spirit in a 15th century illuminated manuscript. Musée Condé, Chantilly. The Holy Spirit is depicted as a dove in the topmost area of painting.

Almost every Christian painting of the Holy Ghost depicts it as a bird, usually a dove. More examples:





Now, let us examine other holy spirits from the ancients:



This is possibly one of the earliest discovered trinities in history, and most definitely the earliest which depicts the Holy Ghost along with it. It was discovered in Northern Iraq, and was popular in ancient Assyria prior to the Christianisation of the land. In it, we have God the father, God the son, and the Holy Ghost. Some of you might recall this symbol. It's the main symbol of the Zoroastrian faith, the Faravahar (pronounced: Fravahar). The Faravahar symbol represents a Fravashi. A Fravashi is the guardian spirit of an individual, who sends out the urvan (often translated as 'soul') into the material world to fight the battle of good versus evil. On the morning of the fourth day after death (In Zoroastrianism, the body takes three days to ascend into heaven/hell. Sounds familiar?), the urvan returns to its fravashi, where its experiences in the material world are collected.

This is Hannah M.G. Shapero's (an artist and writer who studied Greek and Latin classics at Harvard. She's an expert on the Zoroastrian faith) description of the the origin of the Faravahar: http://www.pyracantha.com/Z/fravahr2.html

The history of the Faravahar design begins in ancient Egypt, with a stylized bird pattern which is known as the "spread-eagle." A "spread-eagle" (as it is called in heraldry) features a flying bird shown from below, with its wings, tail, and legs outstretched. Such designs have been used in cultures throughout history, including American, where the seal of the U.S. Government features a "spread-eagle."

An Egyptian "spread-eagle" device is featured in the treasure of Tut-ankh-amoun which has a bird's body with a human head, and in which hieroglyphic symbols are held in the outstretched talons. (Illustration: Tut-ankh-amoun) These features will later re- appear, transformed, in the Faravahar. Closer still to the Faravahar are Egyptian designs which feature a sun-disc with wings. (Illustration: Egyptian winged disc.) This winged sun-disc represents Horus, the hawk-god believed by the ancient Egyptians to be incarnate in Pharaoh, the god-king.

The winged disc was from the beginning a symbol of divine kingship, or the divine favor upon a king. Very early on (second millennium B.C.) this design had migrated from Egypt to the ancient Near East. It appears above the carved figure of a Hittite king, (The Hittites flourished from about 1400-1200 B.C.) symbolizing a god's favor in the "spread-eagle" form. In Syria it is shown on a seal from the Mitanni civilization (c.1450-1360 BC) (Illustration: Mitanni winged disc).

The proto-Faravahar symbol may also have a native Mesopotamian origin, which was combined with the Egyptian symbol in ancient Assyria. Assyrian art also associates the winged disc with divinity and divine protection of the king and people. It appears both with and without a human figure. Without the human figure, it is a symbol of the sun-god Shamash, but with the human figure, it is the symbol of the Assyrian national god Assur. This appears on many carvings and seals. The Assyrian versions of the winged disc sometimes have the kingly figure inside the disc, and others have him arising from within the disc in a design that is very close to the Faravahar as it appears in Persian art. The graphic evolution from the "spread-eagle" is evident in the stylized Assyrian version of the design, where the bird's legs are abstracted into wavy streamers on either side of the disc which end either in "claws" or in scrolls, as they do in the Persian design. (Illustration : 2 versions of Assyrian faravahar)

By the time of the Achaemenid kings (dynasty flourished from about 600 B.C. to 330 B.C.), then, the design that would become the Faravahar had already been in use for at least 1000 years, from Egypt to Syria and then to Assyria. The early Achaemenids conquered Mesopotamian lands in the 6th century B.C., and re-patriated all the peoples subject to Babylonian rule, the Jews among them. These same Achaemenids also adopted Assyrian and Babylonian motifs for their monumental art, including the winged disc.



Now, as she pointed the origins of the Faravahar to Egypt, I shall point out my understanding of the Egpytian version of the Faravahar. Egypt is where a huge bulk of Christianity's pagan influences occured, as well as Assyria, Babylon, Syria, etc. These areas were where Christianity first spread to, outside Palestine.



This is Horus depicted as an Eagle. Horus was a popular God in Egypt. He was introduced by invaders to the Egyptians, first as a War God. Later on, the Pharoahs promoted and demoted him as they pleased. He became a Sky God, as well as a Sun God in the end. Horus was a very important deity for the Egyptians.



This is Nekhbet. She was a very important deity for the Pharoahs. Her role for the Pharoahs was similar to the role of a Faravahar, or Holy Ghost. She is depicted as a vulture. As you can see, birds were very important creates, like cats, for the Egyptians.

Now, we shall move on to Babylon, home of the origin of the Holy Ghost and Mariolatory.



This depiction is of a mother Goddess. As everyone knows, Goddess worship was and still is prevalent throughout the Pagan world. In Babylon, she was represented in the form of a dove.

The Assyrian goddess Juno or "the Virgin Venus" was identified with the Air. Why would "air" be identified with her? Well, the symbol for the pagan goddess of this trinity was the dove. In Chaldee, the same word which is translated "air" is also translated "Holy Ghost". "Juno imparts the generation of soul". And where does man's soul come from? It comes from the Spirit of God, or, in paganism, the third person of the pagan trinity.

Now connect this with an Orphic Hymn:

"O royal Juno, of majestic mien, Aerial formed, divine, Jove's blessed queen, Throned in the bosom of Caerulean air, The race of mortals is thy constant care; The cooling gales, thy power alone inspires, Which nourish life, which every life desires, Mother of showers and winds, from thee alone Producing all things, mortal life is known; All natures show thy temperament divine, And universal sway alone is thine, With sounding blasts of wind, the swelling sea And rolling rivers roar when shook by thee."

In the temple of Hieropolis in Syria a famous statue existed of Juno with a golden dove on her head, and was called Semeion. Only in that country was it thus called, meaning "The Habitation". And the golden dove shows what she was the habitation of - the Spirit of God - paganism's third person of the trinity.

Of course, the depiction of Infant Jesus and Son is mainly inspired by Egyptian paganism, ie, Isis and Horus.



According to the Greeks and Romans, Cybele, the mother of the gods, and of Venus, the goddess of love, are in general very distinct. Many have found it most difficult to identify the two. But keep in mind the fundamental principle of the Mysteries and you have no trouble.

At first the Mysteries only had Adad as the "One God". Adad, being triune, allowed three different forms of divinity when the Babylonian Mystery of Iniquity formed further. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to display this concept, just as Trinitarians do today. The Egyptians did the same.

These forms became the Father, Mother and Son. Apuleius tells us that when he was initiated, the goddess Isis revealed herself to him as:

"The first of the celestials, and the uniform manifestation of the gods and goddesses... WHOSE ONE SOLE DIVINITY the whole orb of the earth venerated, and under a manifold form, with different rites, and under a variety of appellations;"
And going over many of these appellations, she declares herself at one instance as "Pessinuntica, the mother of the gods (i.e. Cybele), and Paphian Venus."
Originally the Mysteries set out with the doctrine of the Unity of the godhead. Wilkinson writes:

"I have stated that Amun-re and other gods took the form of different deities, which, though it appears at first sight to represent some difficulty, may readily be accounted for when we consider that each one of those figures or emblems that were adopted, was only an emanation, or deified attribute of the Same Great Being to whom they ascribe various characters, according to the several offices he was supposed to perform."
Based on the question of the identification of Cybele and Astarte we see the following. Fundamentally there was only one goddess - the Holy Spirit, represented as female, when the distinction of sex was wickedly assigned to the godhead. This happened through a perversion of the Scriptural idea that all children of God were begotten by the Father, and born of the Spirit in a husband and wife scenario.
The Spirit of God was represented as the Mother in the form of a dove. This was supposedly based upon the reference to the Spirit that "fluttered" at the creation. This is the exact meaning of the term in Gen. 1:2. "The Spirit fluttered on the face of the waters". Therefore this goddess was called Ops, "the Flutterer", or Juno, "The Dove", or Kubele, "The Binder with Cords". This last title had a reference to the "bands of love, the cords of man", referred to in Hosea 11:4 as "Khubeli Adam". God supposedly draws man unto himself with such cords, and also bound Adam to God through the Spirit's indwelling while the covenant of Eden was unbroken.

The Romans joined the two terms Juno and Kubele - or as it was commonly pronounced, Cybele - together. And on certain occasions they invoked their supreme goddess by the name of Juno Covella, "the Dove that binds with cords". In "STATIUS", the name of the great goddess is Cybele:

"Italo gemitus Almone Cybele Ponit, et Idaeos jam non reminiscitur manes."

The triune emblem of the supreme Assyrian divinity was pictured as a man holding a large ring. Large wings protrude from an orb out of which the upper half of the man appears. Instead of two feet there are two bands portrayed with the wings and tail of this dove.
It was only natural that once the "Christian" trinity was introduced this pagan trend would lead further until Mary-worship became an integral part of the Roman Catholic Church. Just as Paganism birthed departures from the true God and this One God became three persons, so did paganism's traits appear within Christian circles, and there resulted a Trinitarian doctrine. And as the pagan trinity spawned into mother worship, by linking motherhood with birthing of the Spirit, so, too, did the Roman Catholic Church (which allowed Trinity creeds within) begin to worship Mary the mother of Jesus.

Mariolatry (Mary worship) was only a natural byproduct of the Trinitarian doctrine of three person being Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you consider the Holy Spirit as a separate person whose only characteristics are "birthing" all into being, and "gentleness", then such a "person" is easily connected to motherhood. But keep the Oneness of the Godhead in mind and you do not separate each manifestation as a person. And you do not thereby assign a personality of a divine member of some trinity who is in question. Therefore Mary worship could only result from a Trinitarian view of the Godhead. And this is precisely how paganism also developed over the ancient centuries into various forms. It changes. Christianity supposedly changed in the first four centuries into a Trinitarian-oriented concept of God. But truth does not change! When one looks at the things of God from that basis of concept, one will never accept any dogmatic assertion that is not explicitly taught in Scripture. Therefore, Trinity-type doctrines are cast away by people, even today, who realize that it was a "developed doctrine", as admitted by Trinitarian scholars.

This alone sheds great insight into the pagan nature of a Trinity doctrine. It shows the potential spreading of leaven that can only come from that which has leaven already in it.

Sources: Many. Online sources (with lots of citations and references from scholars):

http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm

http://pocm.info/

http://www.pyracantha.com/Z/fravahr2.html

And many more scattered here and there.

For a brief introduction on Pagan elements in Christianity, please refer to: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

Now, my question to Christians is this: What are your views regarding the Holy Spirit? What are its origins? How is the Holy Spirit different from an angel? How is the Holy Spirit a part of God? What makes you believe that the Holy Spirit protects you?
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Keltoi
10-17-2008, 05:14 AM
Well, your claim of paganism aside, I will do my best to answer your questions.

Origins of the Holy Spirit: As for the origins of the Holy Spirit, of course that origin is God. As to the first mention, most Christians believe it can be found in the Old Testament. "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen. 1:2).
by His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens" (Job 26:13). The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (33:4). "Thou sendest forth Thy Spirit, they are created: and Thou renewest the face of the earth" (Ps. 104:30).

How is the Holy Spirit different that an angel? The obvious difference is that the Holy Spirit is God. An angel is not God, at least not by most understandings of what an angel is. Another aspect would be the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

How is the Holy Spirit part of God? I suppose it would be best to describe the Holy Spirit as God at work. When the Holy Spirit does something, God is doing it. When the Holy Spirit speaks, God is speaking. Without God, there is no Holy Spirit.

What makes me think the Holy Spirit can protect me? I wouldn't characterize it as protection. The Holy Spirit is what guides me on the rocky road to salvation.
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alcurad
10-17-2008, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

How is the Holy Spirit part of God? I suppose it would be best to describe the Holy Spirit as God at work.
and so there is no need for the Holy Spirit being spoken of as a persona? it simply being god's actions...
or is it that God is different when he works? if so, does that mean God's state change's?
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The Khan
10-17-2008, 06:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Well, your claim of paganism aside, I will do my best to answer your questions.

Origins of the Holy Spirit: As for the origins of the Holy Spirit, of course that origin is God. As to the first mention, most Christians believe it can be found in the Old Testament. "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen. 1:2).
by His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens" (Job 26:13). The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (33:4). "Thou sendest forth Thy Spirit, they are created: and Thou renewest the face of the earth" (Ps. 104:30).
How can a dove move upon the face of the waters? Can you please elaborate?

How is the Holy Spirit different that an angel? The obvious difference is that the Holy Spirit is God. An angel is not God, at least not by most understandings of what an angel is. Another aspect would be the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Good point.

What makes me think the Holy Spirit can protect me? I wouldn't characterize it as protection. The Holy Spirit is what guides me on the rocky road to salvation.
I have a Christian friend, a protestant, and she told me that she feels the holy spirit's protection when she's scared. Now, either her pastor's lying to her, or there's a lot of controversy regarding the role of the holy spirit.

I have another question - Is there any verse in the bible which describes the shape of the holy spirit, ie, a dove? If not, why is the holy spirit pictured as a dove?

Another question - If the holy spirit is pictured as a dove guiding every single Christian, as you say so, then how is one dove guiding every single Christian? Does that imply there are multiple dove-like holy spirits? Isn't that polytheistic?
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Keltoi
10-17-2008, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
How can a dove move upon the face of the waters? Can you please elaborate?
The Holy Spirit is not a dove. In Christian art the Holy Spirit is sometimes depicted as a dove due to the description of Christ's Baptism. The Holy Spirit is Spirit.


format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I have a Christian friend, a protestant, and she told me that she feels the holy spirit's protection when she's scared. Now, either her pastor's lying to her, or there's a lot of controversy regarding the role of the holy spirit.
Nobody is lying to her. She feels comforted, which is one of the things Christ told us would be the job of the Holy Spirit. That is why Christ called the Holy Spirit a Comforter.

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I have another question - Is there any verse in the bible which describes the shape of the holy spirit, ie, a dove? If not, why is the holy spirit pictured as a dove?
As I mentioned before, the Holy Spirit is often depicted as a dove because of the description of Christ's Baptism, "And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. " That is where the iconography comes from, but Christians do not believe the Holy Spirit to literally fly around like a dove. It is Spirit, an indwelling Spirit at work in our lives.

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
Another question - If the holy spirit is pictured as a dove guiding every single Christian, as you say so, then how is one dove guiding every single Christian? Does that imply there are multiple dove-like holy spirits? Isn't that polytheistic?
Again, the artwork representing the Holy Spirit as a dove does not mean we believe the Holy Spirit to be a dove. We believe the Holy Spirit to be what the name implies...a Holy Spirit.
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The Khan
10-17-2008, 03:26 PM
I see. Thanks for explaining the Christian perspective.

I have more questions:

What is the Jewish view of the holy spirit?

How come they never considered the holy spirit as part of Yahweh?

What was Arius's view of the holy spirit?

What is the unitarian view of the holy spirit?

Why have the binitarians rejected the holy spirit as a part of God?

If the holy spirit is also a part of God, then why don't you pray in the name of the holy spirit rather than the son? If the Holy spirit is God at work, surely, it would be more closer to monotheism if one prays in the name of the holy spirit instead of the son. Surely, the holy spirit existed longer than the son.
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Keltoi
10-17-2008, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I see. Thanks for explaining the Christian perspective.

I have more questions:

What is the Jewish view of the holy spirit?
I would be more comfortable with someone who practices Judaism answering that question.

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
How come they never considered the holy spirit as part of Yahweh?
I'm not sure that they didn't. Again, that would best be answer by a Jew.

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
What was Arius's view of the holy spirit?
I believe Arius referred to the Holy Spirit as the "exerted energy of God".

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
What is the unitarian view of the holy spirit?
Well, Unitarians simply call each aspect of God described in the Bible, God. The reason traditional Christianity did not simply call these aspects God and leave it at that is because each aspect serves a different function and purpose. Some might call it semantics, but in reality making the distinction is an important part of understanding how God works in our lives, which is why traditional Christianity cannot simply meld the three together without making the distinctions of purpose and nature.

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
Why have the binitarians rejected the holy spirit as a part of God?
From what I understand they believe the Holy Spirit to exist within the Son and to come from the Son.

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
If the holy spirit is also a part of God, then why don't you pray in the name of the holy spirit rather than the son? If the Holy spirit is God at work, surely, it would be more closer to monotheism if one prays in the name of the holy spirit instead of the son. Surely, the holy spirit existed longer than the son.
We pray in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Added to that, we do not believe the Holy Spirit existed "longer" than the Son. All three are eternal and have always existed.
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The Khan
10-17-2008, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I believe Arius referred to the Holy Spirit as the "exerted energy of God".
Do you disagree with this?

We pray in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Added to that, we do not believe the Holy Spirit existed "longer" than the Son. All three are eternal and have always existed.
I shall quote my question in the "Questions for Christians" thread, as it's unrelated to the topic here.
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barney
10-18-2008, 04:48 PM
What hasnt been addressed is the need for a Holy Ghost. What point does it serve. Why not just call it "Gods actions".

In the Torah, it is Yahweh himself acting. Like when he turned Miriams skin white for saying that god had spoken through her and Aaron,(amongst a few hundred other occassions), the Holy spirit isnt needed at that point.

Surely its an extra layer of complication?
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The Khan
10-18-2008, 07:17 PM
Or rather, a pagan concept.
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barney
10-18-2008, 08:51 PM
Yes its a pagan concept, like angels and devils and halo's and crosses and eating souls and ressurection and life after death and bread into wine and walking on water and talking animals and blood for sin and.....you get the drift.
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The Khan
10-19-2008, 02:47 AM
I can't 100% agree with you, regarding the angels and devils... but yeah, I get the drift. ^^
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