How was the trinity adopted?

[rpwelton]

It's no surprise that the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible. So how did Christians come to adopt this belief? I know Christians believe that it is the true form of God, and therefore it was not "invented". But surely there had to be a specific point in time where this was revealed to Christians as the truth (whether through direct revelation or divine inspiration).

Since the trinity is not intuitive, I'm just curious how it came to be.. Please explain. Thanks.

[The Khan]

:sl:

The trinity is a pagan concept. The concept of trinity has existed throughout the pagan world. For example, the trinity in Hinduism is called trimurti "three deities", and there are two versions, the male version, and that of their consorts. The male version is "Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the preserver), and Shiva (the destroyer). Their consorts are Shakti, Parvati, and Saraswati. The trinity in Zoroastrianism is known as the "Ahuric triad", and consists of Ahura Mazda (the wise Lord), Mithra (the Ahura of the Sun), and Apam-Napat (a water Ahura who prevents rebellions, can be compared to Saraswati). The Egyptian trinity used to change every dynasty, according to the whims and fancies of the Pharoahs who considered themselves as the greatest of the Gods. For example, one certain trinity was - Osiris (the father), Horus (the son + holy ghost), Isis (the mother). Here's another trinity from Assyria, showing God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost:

Likewise, there have been many many trinities in polytheistic faiths.

Of course, the "Son of God" concept is of Roman Pagan origin. There have been many "sons of a God" in Rome, such as Augustus Caesar, Dionysus, Scipio Africanus, etc. When Justin Martyr, one of the earliest Christian martyrs was asked about the Son of God concept, he said that "we found nothing different from what you view on the Sons of Jupiter". However, Justin had a solution: The Devil did it. The Devil had the foresight to implement all these characteristics of the trinity into the pagan world before the advent of Jesus (AHS).

As for Mariolatry and the Holy Ghost, please read my thread here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ariolatry.html



These are the early non-trinitarian Christian views. The third council of Nicaea suppressed all these views.

Arius (AD ca. 250 or 256 - 336) believed that the Son was subordinate to the Father, firstborn of all creation. However, the Son did have Divine status.

Ebionites (1st to 4th century AD) believed that the Son was subordinate to the Father and nothing more than a special human.

Marcion (AD ca. 110-160) believed that there were two Deities, one of creation / Hebrew Bible and one of the New Testament.

Modalism states that God has taken numerous forms in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and that God has manifested Himself in three primary modes in regards to the salvation of mankind. Thus God is Father in creation (God created or begat a Son through the virgin birth), Son in redemption (God manifested Himself into or indwelt the begotten man Christ Jesus for the purpose of His death upon the cross), and Holy Spirit in regeneration (God's indwelling Spirit within the souls of Christian believers). In light of this view, God is not three separate Persons, but rather one God manifesting Himself in multiple ways. It is held by its proponents that this view maintains the strict monotheism found in Judaism and the Old Testament scriptures.

Many Gnostic traditions held that the Christ is a heavenly Aeon but not one with the father.
Docetism comes from the Greek: δοκηο (doceo), meaning "to seem." This view holds that Jesus only seemed to be human and only appeared to die.

Adoptionism (2nd century AD) holds that Jesus became divine at his baptism (sometimes associated with the Gospel of Mark) or at his resurrection (sometimes associated with Saint Paul and Shepherd of Hermas).

:w:

[rpwelton]

Salam Khan,

I understand the idea that the trinity has pagan roots. I also know that it does not represent the true belief that Jesus (as) preached.

However, what I want to know is when and how the trinity came to be accepted as the ultimate doctrine of faith by Christians.

Something so complicated and convoluted as the trinity (which even Christians contend cannot be understood by human reasoning) could not have been something that a multitude of Christians simply "understood" to be true after the death of Jesus (as), so it had to come from some primary source. I would like to know what that primary source is and when it happened.

[Keltoi]

Ignatius of Antioch "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever"

Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John and died around 110 A.D. Here one can clearly see a distinction between the three aspects of God. Known as the Trinity. Of course the word Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible. Either is the word Bible. The point is that the Trinity is a word created to explain what we believe about God.

Polycarp, another disciple of the Apostle John. Bishop of Smyrna."O Lord God Almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"

This from Hippolytus, 190 A.D. If then the word was with God and was also God what follows ? Would one say that he speaks of two God’s ? I shall not speak of two Gods but of one; of two persons however and of a third economy, the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father is indeed one but there are two persons because there is also the son; and there is the third the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the word executes and the son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of the harmony is led back to the one God, for God is one. It is the father who commands and the son who obeys and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding; The Father is above all the son is through all and the holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit".

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[anatolian]

Paul first thraw it's seeds and then thetheology evolved through the centuries and took the modern shape with Constantine(or his priests) in the 4th century.

[rpwelton]

In response to a private message I received (because I'm not allowed to reply to PMs yet), I am looking for the Christian/historical explanation of how the trinity came about. There are plenty of threads here where we Muslims bash on the trinity, but I would like this to not be one of them. I would like to give Christians a place to explain the trinity without someone interrupting the thread and turning it into another debate. I'm mostly just trying to gather as much information from the Christian perspective that I can. Thanks for understanding.

[anatolian]

But your question is not an answerable question for christians.You strat with accepting the non-existence of the Trinity in Bible which is denied by almost all Christians.They will say every christian, all twelve disciples knew and did teach the trinity...etc

[Grace Seeker]

But your question is not an answerable question for christians.You strat with accepting the non-existence of the Trinity in Bible which is denied by almost all Christians.They will say every christian, all twelve disciples knew and did teach the trinity...etc

But if that is the Christian perspective, then that is the Christian perspective. Let each individual for themselves determine whether that perspective is true. But we can't tell the Christian perspective by beginning with a theory that comes out of the Qur'an. That would be to tell the story from an Islamic perspective, which is not what is being asked for.

[rpwelton]

But if that is the Christian perspective, then that is the Christian perspective. Let each individual for themselves determine whether that perspective is true. But we can't tell the Christian perspective by beginning with a theory that comes out of the Qur'an. That would be to tell the story from an Islamic perspective, which is not what is being asked for.

Exactly. Please let the Christians explain this from their point of view.

[mkh4JC]

Salam Khan,

I understand the idea that the trinity has pagan roots. I also know that it does not represent the true belief that Jesus (as) preached.

However, what I want to know is when and how the trinity came to be accepted as the ultimate doctrine of faith by Christians.

Something so complicated and convoluted as the trinity (which even Christians contend cannot be understood by human reasoning) could not have been something that a multitude of Christians simply "understood" to be true after the death of Jesus (as), so it had to come from some primary source. I would like to know what that primary source is and when it happened.

Well, there are verses in the Old Testament that point to the Trinity. Have a look at this verse in Psalms 110: 1:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footsool.'

Here's Jesus in Matthew speaking on this verse:

'Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.'

Matthew 22: 42-46.

Let's take a look at what is in Genesis, during the creation:

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.'

Genesis 1: 1-2

Most interpret the mention of the spirit to be the Holy Spirit.

In terms of someone having a difficulty trying to grasp the Trinity, well, it stands to reason that there would be things about God that surpass our understanding, and the Trinity is one of them. But that doesn't mean you can't come to some kind of understanding, as it is stated in Genesis during the creation account (when God made man) that we ourselves are made in the image and likeness of God, and as we are triune in nature and are still one, so too is God. As it goes: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

[wth1257]

Exactly. Please let the Christians explain this from their point of view.

Here is the explination of the Roman Catholic Church:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER ONE
I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER

ARTICLE I
"I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH"

Paragraph 2. The Father

I. "IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"

232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"53 Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."54

233 Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,55 for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith".56 The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".57

235 This paragraph expounds briefly (I) how the mystery of the Blessed Trinity was revealed, (II) how the Church has articulated the doctrine of the faith regarding this mystery, and (III) how, by the divine missions of the Son and the Holy Spirit, God the Father fulfills the "plan of his loving goodness" of creation, redemption and sanctification.

236 The Fathers of the Church distinguish between theology (theologia) and economy (oikonomia). "Theology" refers to the mystery of God's inmost life within the Blessed Trinity and "economy" to all the works by which God reveals himself and communicates his life. Through the oikonomia the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia. God's works reveal who he is in himself; the mystery of his inmost being enlightens our understanding of all his works. So it is, analogously, among human persons. A person discloses himself in his actions, and the better we know a person, the better we understand his actions.


237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

II. THE REVELATION OF GOD AS TRINITY

The Father revealed by the Son

238 Many religions invoke God as "Father". The deity is often considered the "father of gods and of men". In Israel, God is called "Father" inasmuch as he is Creator of the world.59 Even more, God is Father because of the covenant and the gift of the law to Israel, "his first-born son".60 God is also called the Father of the king of Israel. Most especially he is "the Father of the poor", of the orphaned and the widowed, who are under his loving protection.61

239 By calling God "Father", the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father.


240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."64

241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"; as "the image of the invisible God"; as the "radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature".65

242 Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (325) that the Son is "consubstantial" with the Father, that is, one only God with him.66 The second ecumenical council, held at Constantinople in 381, kept this expression in its formulation of the Nicene Creed and confessed "the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father".67

The Father and the Son revealed by the Spirit

243 Before his Passover, Jesus announced the sending of "another Paraclete" (Advocate), the Holy Spirit. At work since creation, having previously "spoken through the prophets", the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples, to teach them and guide them "into all the truth".68 The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father.

244 The eternal origin of the Holy Spirit is revealed in his mission in time. The Spirit is sent to the apostles and to the Church both by the Father in the name of the Son, and by the Son in person, once he had returned to the Father.69 The sending of the person of the Spirit after Jesus' glorification70 reveals in its fullness the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father."71 By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity".72 But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son."73 The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified."74

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)". The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."75

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447,76 even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.


248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son.77 The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason",78 for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle",79 is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.80 This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.


III. THE HOLY TRINITY IN THE TEACHING OF THE FAITH

The formation of the Trinitarian dogma

249 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church's living faith, principally by means of Baptism. It finds its expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, such as this salutation taken up in the Eucharistic liturgy: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."81

250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people's sense of the faith.

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance", "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, "infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand".82

252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:


Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92

IV. THE DIVINE WORKS AND THE TRINITARIAN MISSIONS

257 "O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!"93 God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the "plan of his loving kindness", conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: "He destined us in love to be his sons" and "to be conformed to the image of his Son", through "the spirit of sonship".94 This plan is a "grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began", stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.95 It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.96

258 The whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons. For as the Trinity has only one and the same natures so too does it have only one and the same operation: "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but one principle."97 However, each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. Thus the Church confesses, following the New Testament, "one God and Father from whom all things are, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are".98 It is above all the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit that show forth the properties of the divine persons.

259 Being a work at once common and personal, the whole divine economy makes known both what is proper to the divine persons, and their one divine nature. Hence the whole Christian life is a communion with each of the divine persons, without in any way separating them. Everyone who glorifies the Father does so through the Son in the Holy Spirit; everyone who follows Christ does so because the Father draws him and the Spirit moves him.99

260 The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God's creatures into the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity.100 But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity: "If a man loves me", says the Lord, "he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him":101


O my God, Trinity whom I adore, help me forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity. May nothing be able to trouble my peace or make me leave you, O my unchanging God, but may each minute bring me more deeply into your mystery! Grant my soul peace. Make it your heaven, your beloved dwelling and the place of your rest. May I never abandon you there, but may I be there, whole and entire, completely vigilant in my faith, entirely adoring, and wholly given over to your creative action.102

IN BRIEF

261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

262 The Incarnation of God's Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.

263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (Jn 14:26) and by the Son "from the Father" (Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. "With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified" (Nicene Creed).

264 "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son" (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).

265 By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

53 Mt 28:19.
54 St. Caesarius of Arles, Sermo 9, Exp. symb.:CCL 103,47.
55 Cf. Profession of faith of Pope Vigilius I (552):DS 415.
56 GCD 43.
57 GCD 47.
58 Dei Filius 4:DS 3015.
59 Cf. Deut 32:6; Mal 2:10.
60 Ex 4:22.
61 Cf. 2 Sam 7:14; Ps 68:6.
62 Cf. Isa 66:13; Ps 131:2.
63 Cf. Ps 27:10; Eph 3:14; Isa 49:15.
64 Mt 11-27.
65 Jn 1:1; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3.
66 The English phrases "of one being" and "one in being" translate the Greek word homoousios, which was rendered in Latin by consubstantialis.
67 Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed; cf. DS 150.
68 Cf. Gen 1:2; Nicene Creed (DS 150); Jn 14:17, 26; 16:13.
69 Cf. Jn 14:26; 15:26; 16:14.
70 Cf. Jn 7:39.
71 Nicene Creed; cf. DS 150.
72 Council of Toledo VI (638): DS 490.
73 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 527.
74 Nicene Creed; cf. DS 150.
75 Council of Florence (1439): DS 1300-1301.
76 Cf. Leo I, Quam laudabiliter (447): DS 284.
77 Jn 15:26; cf. AG 2.
78 Council of Florence (1439): DS 1302.
79 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331.
80 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 850.
81 2 Cor 13:14; cf. 1 Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6.
82 Paul VI, CPG § 2.
83 Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
84 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.
85 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.
86 Fides Damasi: DS 71.
87 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:25.
88 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.
89 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528.
90 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330.
91 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331.
92 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 40,41: PG 36,417.
93 LH, Hymn for Evening Prayer.
94 Eph 1:4-5,9; Rom 8:15,29.
95 2 Tim 1:9-10.
96 Cf. AG 2-9.
97 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331; cf. Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
98 Council of Constantinople II: DS 421.
99 Cf. Jn 6:44; Rom 8:14.
100 Cf. Jn 17:21-23.
101 Jn 14:23.
102 Prayer of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity.

[Follower]

Man always has to label things! I don't like the term Trinity, the concept of Trinity is in the Bible but look at the problems it has caused with Muslims. Some still think we worship 3 gods!

Through the Bible Christians understand that GOD has manifest Himself to us in different ways.

I like Tri-unity- Muslims understand Unity "There is no deity but Allah". How can there be unity when there is only one?

[URL="http://http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unity"[/URL]

–noun, plural -ties. 1. the state of being one; oneness.
2. a whole or totality as combining all its parts into one.
3. the state or fact of being united or combined into one, as of the parts of a whole; unification.
4. absence of diversity; unvaried or uniform character.
5. oneness of mind, feeling, etc., as among a number of persons; concord, harmony, or agreement.
6. Mathematics. a. the number one; a quantity regarded as one.
b. identity (def. 9).

7. (in literature and art) a relation of all the parts or elements of a work constituting a harmonious whole and producing a single general effect.
8. one of the three principles of dramatic structure (the three unities) derived from Aristotelian aesthetics and formalized in the neoclassic canon in which a play is required to represent action as taking place in one day (unity of time), as occurring within one place (unity of place), and as having a single plot with a beginning, middle, and end (unity of action).

[rpwelton]

Man always has to label things! I don't like the term Trinity, the concept of Trinity is in the Bible but look at the problems it has caused with Muslims. Some still think we worship 3 gods!

I will actually agree that some Muslims and non-Christians have the wrong perception about Christianity and think it is polytheistic in nature. I understand that Christians do not worship three separate Gods. However, it's hard to blame them when most Christians do not even agree on how to explain the trinity. You have to admit that it's a very confusing doctrine to an outsider (and even to some Christians).

As far as I understand, Christians and Muslims believe in the same ONE God. The difference arises when trying to characterize the nature of God.

Muslims say he is ONE and nobody is with Him.

Christians say he is ONE, but there are three components that make up God. There's the Father, Jesus (as) and the Holy Spirit.

Again, I started this thread and another ("How much do you rely on the Bible") in order to get a better understanding of Christianity. I do not want to engage in any debate here, but merely to clarify my knowledge of Christianity. If someone wishes to engage in debate, then please start another thread. These things often get sidetracked and I would like for that not to happen.

The three forms of God all play a different role, is that right? I know Jesus (as) is the one whom through Christians seek salvation. The Holy Spirit is the one that dwells inside those who are saved. But now where does the Father come into play if the other two have all ready taken care of a) salvation and b) personal relationship with God?

I'm just having trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that all three are equal and eternal, but yet they seem to serve different purposes. Thanks.

[Grace Seeker]

rpwelton, are you a reader? I've wanted to post more on this thread, but a thorough discussion of the Trinity (or Tri-unity, I don't have a problem with that term) does not lend itself well to a forum conversation in which people prefer shorter posts. But there are some very good sources that you could read independently that might help you to understand both the historic origins of the Trinitarian forumlary (which is a little less pagan than the Khan would have you to believe) and the theological understandings that led to its creation. The following are some of my suggestions (beyond the first three, they are not in any particular order of usefulness to you):

Early Christian Doctrines, by J.N.D. Kelly, 1958, Harper Press.

The Trinity: Global Perspectives, by Veli-Matti Karkkainen, 2007, Westminster John Knox Press.

Issue No. 85 of Church History magazine includes the following articles of interest:

Why a Creed?
A Conversation with Robert Louis Wilken
Robert Louis Wilken

Who Came to the Council of Nicaea?
D. H. Williams

Which Creed is Which?

The Road to Nicaea
The Council of Nicaea Strove to Answer one of the Central Questions of the Christian Faith, but it also Proved that Theology is Never a Tidy Buisiness
John Anthony Mcguckin

How Arianism Almost Won
After Nicaea, the Real Fight Began
Christopher A. Hall

Debating Jesus' Divinity: Did You Know?
Interresting and Unusual Facts about the Council of Nicaea
Compiled by Steven Gertz, D. H. Williams, and John Anthony McGuckin

Athanasius
Pugnacious Defender of Orthodoxy
Patrick Henry Rardon

Changes and Challenges
David Neff

Dogs, Missions, and Holy Relics
Compiled by Ted Olsen

The Dead Sea Scrolls Unrolled
Joseph L. Trafton

New wine, new wineskins
Jennifer Woodruff Tait

Taking Care of (Church) Business
More was decided at the Council of Nicaea than the nature of Christ.
Paul L. Maier

Do You Know Whom You Worship?
Did the Nicene Creed distort the pure gospel, or did it embody and protect it?
D. H. Williams

Saints and Heretics
Key players in a high-stakes game of politics and theology.
Elesha Coffman

A Marriage Made in Byzantium
When it came to determining doctrine, there were limits to an emperor's power.
Bradley Nassif

The Final Act
It took almost 60 years for the church to make Nicaea its standard of faith.
Lewis Ayres

The Council of Nicaea and its bitter aftermath
Steven Gertz and Jennifer Trafton

Holiness of heart, life, and pen
Charles Wesley and Charles H. Sheldon
Chris Armstrong

How Armenia "Invented" Christendom
Steven Gertz

Surprised by Orthodoxy
Thomas C. Oden

Debating Jesus' Divinity: Christian History Timeline
The Trials and Triumphs of Nicaea

Also, the article "A Hammer Struck at Heresy" which discusses what happened at the famous Council of Nicea, when the Roman emperor convened some 250 quarreling Christian bishops in Issue No. 51, is very informative.



Other writings worth reading if you are seriously interested in the topic are:

Against the Arians, by Athanasius.

On Luke 10:22, by Athanasius.

On the Trinity, by Augustine.

Against Heresies, by Irenaeus.

Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew, by Justin Martyr.

On First Principles, by Origen.

Against Marcion, by Tertullian.

Against Praxeas, by Tertullian.



Arianism After Arius: Essays on the Development of the Fourth Century Trinitarian Conflicts, by M.R. Barnes and Daniel Williams, eds., 1993, T&T Clark.

The Trinity and the Kingdom: The Doctrine of God, by Jurgen Moltman, 1981, Harper & Row.

The Tripersonal God: Understanding and Interpreting the Trinity, Gerald O'Collins, 1999, Paulist Press.

Systematic Theology, vol. 1, by Wolfhart Pannenberg, 1991, Eerdmans.

The Four Great Heresies, by J.W.C. Wand, 1955, Mowbray.

"Tertullian and the Doctrine of the Trinity" in Studies in Tertullian and Augustine, by Benjamin Warfield, 1930, Oxford University Press.

The Shawdow of the Almighty: Father, Son, and Spirit in Biblical Perspective, by Ben Whitherington and Laura Ice, 2002, Eerdmans.

[rpwelton]

Thanks for the above reading list, Grace Seeker. I will check them out.

[anatolian]

I like Tri-unity- Muslims understand Unity "There is no deity but Allah". How can there be unity when there is only one?

[URL="http://http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unity"[/URL]

–noun, plural -ties. 1. the state of being one; oneness.

Salam.So we refer to the 1st meaning of the word? :)

[suffiyan007]

because of the pope john paul adopt the trinity in Jesus..and that's why follow lotsa bidaah.! i really wanna said why should a son die for people to wash away the sin of the world....if Jesus so powerful where should God puts his face?:rollseyes

[Grace Seeker]

if Jesus so powerful where should God puts his face?:rollseyes

I'm not sure I understand your question. Christians would say that whenever you were looking into the face of Jesus, that you were in fact looking into the face of God himself.

[Follower]

The three forms of God all play a different role, is that right?

Yes, there are different roles just as your mind, body and soul each has a different role.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus work under the authority of God the Father.

[Grace Seeker]

The three forms of God all play a different role, is that right?

Yes, there are different roles just as your mind, body and soul each has a different role.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus work under the authority of God the Father.

In the eastern half of the Christian Church it is usually expressed that both the Spirit and the Son proceed from the Father, while in the western half of the Church it is usually said that the Son proceeds from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. Whichever group you are speaking to then Christians agree that there are distinctions between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. If this idea of procession is what you mean by authority, then you are in speaking in accord with the early patristic fathers of the Christian faith.

However, one must be careful not to confuse this distinctiveness with the idea that each person exercises a different role to the point that one then says that the Father does task A and only A, while the Son alone does B and the Spirit does C and never either A or B. The reality is that the whole Godhead (Father, Son, and Spirit) is involved in all of the acts of God from creation to redemption. To speak of them having roles that are so different that they are uniquely the ministry of one and not shared by all is to drift from a tri-unity to tri-theism.

[Follower]

Thank you for adding that clarification. We don't want anyone thinking we are tri-theists!!!

[rpwelton]

The three forms of God all play a different role, is that right?

Yes, there are different roles just as your mind, body and soul each has a different role.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus work under the authority of God the Father.

Wait, I thought all 3 were equal and part of the same being? If God the Father has the authority, then he has two "less than equal" parts?

^o)

[Grace Seeker]

Wait, I thought all 3 were equal and part of the same being? If God the Father has the authority, then he has two "less than equal" parts?

And that is why I prefer to talk about the idea of the Spirit and the Son "proceeding from" the Father rather than being under "authority" of the Father. But in truth, depending on which one of the early Christian fathers you spoke to some would say that the Father, Son and Spirit are all equal, and others would say that while one that there is inequality in the Godhead. Origen, I believe, even slipped a little too far and said some things that to me are contrary to the teaching of scripture and are perilously close to the Arian view that the Son is a creation of the Father. But in his Homilies on Numbers 12 Origen still does imply the existence of three persons and one shared substance.

Regarding your specific question, the idea of the subordination of the Son and the Spirit to some "higher" status of the Father is mentioned by such notables as Justin Martyr and Ireneus in different forms. And while Justin Martyr's views were considered heretical, I find it interesting that Ireneus's view is actually called "orthodox subordinationism" -- an oxymoron if there ever was one.

Origen took from Ireneus the idea that while one, there still might be some sort of order or priority within the Godhead. He affirmed that all three persons were co-eternal, but he insisted that only the Father was autotheos, that is self-subsistent. This is not what was meant by those before him who said that the Son and the Spirit proceeded from the Father, but for Origen it meant that the Son and the Spirit exisited by derivation from the Father, and thus they had their origins (no pun intended) not in themselves but in the Father. It was not that big of a step then for Arius to take this idea and quit affirming what Origen still insisted on that the Son (or the Logos, as Origen spoke of him) never had a beginning

Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of his only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of him, and derives from what he is, but wtihout any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself.... Therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.

Origen in First Principles

To Arius' view, if the Son originated from the Father, then he must have also originated after the Father, and so to Arius the Son was just one more creature, and a temporal creature at that, hence the famous dictum of Arianism: "There was a time when the Son was not."

It was into this fray, a slippery slope moving away from the Biblical teaching regarding the Logos that first Arius' bishop, Alexander, stepped to correct the priest and then a young deacon in Alexander's service, Athanasius, arose to defend what the church saw as a key understanding of the Logos that he was not created but had always been.

It was Athanasius who distinguised between the ideas of "generation" and "creation". Athanasius argued that this generation of the Logos (and by inference the Spirit as well, though no one was arguing about the Spirit at the time) was eternal and internal to God, whereas creation was in time and external to God. The Son was therefore homoousios (being of the same substance) and co-eternal with the Father, not simply homoiousios (being of similar substance to God) as some Arians claimed.

Note: the only difference between those two Greek words is the letter 'iota'. But it is the between Christ being God and Christ being like God.

[Now, that's a lot for one post, and it just scratches the surface of the process that the church went through over a period of about 300 years. If you find it interesting, understandable, and worthy of your time to read, I can expand on it for you. However, if so, I ask you to remember I am not writing to argue a point as being one that I am proposing, but because you have asked for this history which includes the history of the understanding of Christian thought and a little bit of politics in the process. So, I'm not asking if it makes ontological sense to you or anyone else, but only if you are able to follow what the respective parties were talking about with each other and why each thought it was important.]

[barney]

Thats a interesting post Grace, and I never knew the fine detail of it before, so thanks for that.

Are you sure you dont wanna argue it, cos I have my argueing boots on. :D

[suffiyan007]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Christians would say that whenever you were looking into the face of Jesus, that you were in fact looking into the face of God himself.

the meaning i meant for: if jesus so powerful and where should God puts his face? mean if jesus has a power, so where should God puts his face...of shameful...because Jesus teach the people...Worship one true God,your God and my God...He is Elah(Allah).... why should jesus have to die for people wash away the sins of the world.?..Jesus doesnt have to be so dignified/possessing to show that he has to die on the Cross to show feelings that he's a saviour...Jesus is just a prophet of Allah...he's Weak..and he do a lotsa miracle because of God's power..is From Allah.:coolious:

[anatolian]

What do christians understand of this?

"I can of mine own self do nothing : as I hear , I judge : and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

"I am the vine, you are the branches ; he who abides in me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing ."

[barney]

Meh, even if its polytheism, polytheism has lotsa pluses and few minuses.

Pour Example:
1)More ears to listen to prayers.
2)More miracles.
3)More stuff to go around.
4)You’d get to pick and choose which gods you want to worship.
5)Gods could compete over you!
6)Some gods might be friendlier
7) Some might have a buy now-pray later deal or other benifits like Tax Free paradise or allow bacon,(although most gods do actually hate bacon)

[rpwelton]

Meh, even if its polytheism, polytheism has lotsa pluses and few minuses.

Pour Example:
1)More ears to listen to prayers.
2)More miracles.
3)More stuff to go around.
4)You’d get to pick and choose which gods you want to worship.
5)Gods could compete over you!
6)Some gods might be friendlier
7) Some might have a buy now-pray later deal or other benifits like Tax Free paradise or allow bacon,(although most gods do actually hate bacon)

:laugh:

[YusufNoor]

Meh, even if its polytheism, polytheism has lotsa pluses and few minuses.

Pour Example:
1)More ears to listen to prayers.
2)More miracles.
3)More stuff to go around.
4)You’d get to pick and choose which gods you want to worship.
5)Gods could compete over you!
6)Some gods might be friendlier
7) Some might have a buy now-pray later deal or other benifits like Tax Free paradise or allow bacon,(although most gods do actually hate bacon)

you missed some of the best part Barney!

one of the gods allows another one to be sacrificed! this is done as "payment" for all "lawbreaking!" in doing so, you can claim that "ALL the law" has been fulfilled! NOW, you can obey ANY laws that you feel like!

and as a bonus, you bring the sacrificed god BACK TO LIFE! you may now either worship thru him or just worship him directly!

AND if anyone tries to question this, you claim the "HE" was the real god in the 1st place! [as was each of the other gods ^o)]

you may now feel free to adopt any pagan custom that you want and as long as you are doing it to worship the minor god/killed now the major god, it's KOOL!

what a concept! a designer god so to speak!

why didn't we think of this before?

:w:

[Follower]

anatolian- just as my words are under the authority/proceed from my mind, Jesus GOD's WORD in the flesh was on earth to fufill GOD's plan of salvation.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are always in sync, working towards the same end.

Did you read all that goes with that verse?

John 15

The Vine and the Branches
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

[barney]

you missed some of the best part Barney!

one of the gods allows another one to be sacrificed! this is done as "payment" for all "lawbreaking!" in doing so, you can claim that "ALL the law" has been fulfilled! NOW, you can obey ANY laws that you feel like!

and as a bonus, you bring the sacrificed god BACK TO LIFE! you may now either worship thru him or just worship him directly!

AND if anyone tries to question this, you claim the "HE" was the real god in the 1st place! [as was each of the other gods ^o)]

you may now feel free to adopt any pagan custom that you want and as long as you are doing it to worship the minor god/killed now the major god, it's KOOL!

what a concept! a designer god so to speak!

why didn't we think of this before?

:w:

I dunno! it's the innovation thats sweeping teh nation!

I'd like mine to be one that pops out infinate doughnuts in paradise. By eating the doughnut you are physically eating him, but thats ok because he likes being scoffed. The worry would be that the schism between followers who beleive that Jam-filled is the truepath and the ones who think that Sprinkles are the only true way might end up in jamshed and crumbs rent asunder.