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Uthman
10-17-2008, 04:59 PM
Protesters have gathered outside a mosque in opposition to a woman leading a mixed congregation in Islamic prayer for the first time in the UK.

Professor Amina Wadud took the service - or khutbah - to mark the start of a conference on Islam and feminism at Wolfson College in Oxford.

The move has provoked opposition as it is traditional in Islam that imams, who are always men, hold mixed services.

One protester said she disagreed with it as it was "against Islam".

The sermon is being held at the the Muslim Educational Centre.

A local Muslim leader advised people not to picket the mosque as it would give the move more publicity.

But some said they felt so strongly against it that they had to protest.

We're here to uphold the traditions and the values of Islam and uphold the ways of the prophet - peace be upon him


Aishah Samah, protester

Aishah Samah, a protester from Oxford said: "We're here to uphold the traditions and the values of Islam and uphold the ways of the prophet - peace be upon him.

"We have no objections to women being heads of state, or organisation leaders.

"Women are highly respected in Islam but in Islamic law, women cannot lead prayer."

Maryanne Ramzy added: "What she is doing is against Islam. I disagree with it."

Mokhtar Badri, vice-president of the Muslim Association of Britain said: "It has nothing to do with position of women in society. It is not to degrade them or because we don't think they are up to it.

"This is something divine not human. We have to do it in the way it has been ordained by God to do it."

Women are forbidden under Islamic law to enter a mosque when they are menstruating as they are "unclean", which prevents them from being an Imam.

Organisers heralded the decision to allow the scholar to lead the service as a "leap forward" for "theological destiny".

Chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre Oxford (MECO) Dr Taj Hargey said: "We believe Islam is a gender-equal religion.

"There is a record that the Prophet Mohammed allowed a woman to lead a mixed-gender congregation, but this precedent has been ignored."

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papa_smurf
10-17-2008, 05:21 PM
What is the world coming to!!!,
It's another way of spreading fitnah around. How can she even lead prayers!!:-\
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SixTen
10-17-2008, 05:26 PM
Progressionists make no sense to me. Their logic is, they want to bring equality. This can only mean they don't think Islam is perfect as it was introduced - I mean, why follow it if you don't accept it as it is? Moulding something and practicing it is so intellectually dishonest.
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Pen Marks
10-17-2008, 05:30 PM
Professor Amina Wadud took the service - or khutbah - to mark the start of a conference on Islam and feminism at Wolfson College in Oxford.
was she the same Amina Wadud that led a few years ago in Newyork? :?

this is gettin really weird though
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Uthman
10-17-2008, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
"There is a record that the Prophet Mohammed allowed a woman to lead a mixed-gender congregation, but this precedent has been ignored."
This is what I really want to know about. If this is a hadith, then I'm guessing that it's considered weak or fabricated by the majority of 'Ulema?
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Snowflake
10-17-2008, 06:00 PM
I want to know to. I can't remember where but I do remember hearing that a woman can lead prayer but she has to stand behind the men. Allahu alim.
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ummsara1108
10-17-2008, 06:08 PM
Ok I know i'm gonna get alot of neg. reasponses but here goes...

If men and women are seperated in a majid, why not let a woman lead the women the same as the male does, sounds pretty closed minded, after all if not for your mother and father given a gift from God to beable to produce you, you would not exsist. Point being, they both had some part.

I love how a woman has so many obsticals, but a man has so much freedom.

I also love how men think they own women, they own no one except themselves and even then they don't truely have ownership over themselves, GOD does.

Surely it states NOWHERE that a man can run naked but a woman has to cover from head to toe. They both must be modestly dressed.

Men support there families, yet, women provide EVERYTHING for the families.

Success of children in there adult lives is only due to the women, after all where are the men for the first part of there children's lives? Understandably they need to work to support the family and the women mostly stay home to guard and educate them, however a man's duties are less than what a woman's duties are. hmmm man = work (support) V woman = (wife, mother, guardian, educator, feeder, caretaker, nurse, listener) hmmm, you men are right about something there is no equality between men and women....WOMEN SIMPLY DO MORE
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Uthman
10-17-2008, 06:22 PM
:sl:

Sister, as far as I'm aware, women are allowed to lead all-women prayers but not mixed-gender ones.

:w:
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ummsara1108
10-17-2008, 06:30 PM
well of course not, mixed gendered ones, I may have mis understood then, is she promoting mixed gendered prayers? If so then i would also agree.

agree that she should not be allowed, except for women only
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Chuck
10-17-2008, 08:02 PM
Some people have crazy idea for gender equality, it is like saying guy should get pregnant for gender equality.
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doorster
10-17-2008, 08:16 PM
:sl:
even though it would not cause fitnah if men and women were in separate partitions, pray tell, who is gonna takeover every month during her monthly break (or there will be 2 lady imams who will have periods at different times)?

edit: this lady "imam" wants mixed jamaat so my original point is lost^^

:w:
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YusufNoor
10-18-2008, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummsara1108
Ok I know i'm gonna get alot of neg. reasponses but here goes...

Allah[swt] knows best!

If men and women are seperated in a majid, why not let a woman lead the women the same as the male does, sounds pretty closed minded, after all if not for your mother and father given a gift from God to beable to produce you, you would not exsist. Point being, they both had some part.

you only need one person to lead prayers. to change THAT would be innovation!


I love how a woman has so many obsticals, but a man has so much freedom.

going off are we?

I also love how men think they own women, they own no one except themselves and even then they don't truely have ownership over themselves, GOD does.

the men may be misguided, but Islam doesn't misguide!


Surely it states NOWHERE that a man can run naked but a woman has to cover from head to toe. They both must be modestly dressed.

there's a Sunnah for both! [that MOST men don't follow]

Men support there families, yet, women provide EVERYTHING for the families.

which is EXACTLY why women don't have to go to the Masjid for Salat or even Jummu'ah!

Success of children in there adult lives is only due to the women, after all where are the men for the first part of there children's lives?

there's a great Hadeeth on this that you should try to find!

Understandably they need to work to support the family and the women mostly stay home to guard and educate them, however a man's duties are less than what a woman's duties are. hmmm man = work (support) V woman = (wife, mother, guardian, educator, feeder, caretaker, nurse, listener) hmmm, you men are right about something there is no equality between men and women....WOMEN SIMPLY DO MORE

to quote one of my favorite speakers, Mufti Ismail Menk, "women CAN be "wife, mother, guardian, educator, feeder, caretaker, nurse, listener" because they were created from a living human being and thus have greater mercy and heart than men do! men were created after all, from...dirt...
:sl:

man or woman, we simply aren't allowed to change the religion according to our whims!

don't let the men make you disillusioned! you can discover the joys of Islam DESPITE us!

:w:
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The Khan
10-18-2008, 01:08 AM
:sl:

I don't want to go into sectarian discussions, but all Sunni madhabs except the Hanbalis allow women to lead the jamaat, under the following conditions:

If there's no man who has a better knowledge of the Qur'an and Sunnah.

The female Imam should stand behind the men.

In China, the Hui Muslims have masjids called a Nüsi. These are women-only masjids.

In Hyderabad, over here, I have yet to come across a single mosque which allows women to pray all year round. The mosque I go to allows women to go to the top floor only during Ramadhan for Tarawih.
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Yanal
10-18-2008, 02:56 AM
Unless it is a total woman mosque.
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ummsara1108
10-18-2008, 03:00 AM
Isn't there great love for Mohammad's wife for the things she had done? (PBUTB)

Was she (PBUH) not some kind of scholor, or in a high status amungst the women of her time?

If so then why was she? Mohammad (PBUH) surely knew better, wasn't his words more than her's? (PBUH) Don't remember hearing anything about her (PBUH) standing behind him?

Are there not more male imam's that can replace another male imam if he bocomes sick or unable to fullfil his duties? Yes of course! Same would apply to a menstrating female imam, surely she would not be the only female imam.

I mean no offense, and appologize for (going off a bit) in my first post. And sorry I do not remember her name off hand.

I'm by no means am an equalist, but do believe in fairness, men have there place and women also have there place, however when it comes to religion we all have a place and a duty.
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Yanal
10-18-2008, 03:05 AM
exactly why allow her in the first place than rather not allow her at all
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ummsara1108
10-18-2008, 03:06 AM
however for a female to imply we should equally join together men and women in mosques and preach together in mosques, i'm affraid I disagree. But seperately, sure why not.
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alcurad
10-18-2008, 03:25 AM
originally it was that women didn't pray behind walls or different floors, rather they would form lines behind men. for not following this, and erecting walls, and I don't mean just physical ones, we have this 'backlash'.
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MustafaMc
10-18-2008, 03:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
originally it was that women didn't pray behind walls or different floors, rather they would form lines behind men. for not following this, and erecting walls, and I don't mean just physical ones, we have this 'backlash'.
I personally agree with you. I will even go so far as to say that I see it is wrong for the men to basically not allow women to pray in the masjid and if they are allowed into the masjid they are made to go to an upper room or behind a physical barrier. I personally see this as an innovation that is harmful to the ummah. People in the West see this and the niqab examples of oppression against women and the liberals are encouraging an ultra-feminist approach as a backlash against Islam.
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SixTen
10-18-2008, 10:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I personally agree with you. I will even go so far as to say that I see it is wrong for the men to basically not allow women to pray in the masjid and if they are allowed into the masjid they are made to go to an upper room or behind a physical barrier. I personally see this as an innovation that is harmful to the ummah. People in the West see this and the niqab examples of oppression against women and the liberals are encouraging an ultra-feminist approach as a backlash against Islam.
You are right brother, they have the permission, however, note

Because of what `Amra the daughter of `Abd al-Rahman said: I heard `A'isha (the Prophet's wife) say: "If Allah's Messenger had seen what new things the women have introduced (in their way of life) he would have definitely prevented them from going to the mosque, as the women of Bani Isra'il were prevented afore." (Muslim #895, Abu Dawud #569);

Because of Ibn `Umar's caution, despite his insistence on their Allah-given permission, in that he reported that the Prophet said: "Do not prevent your women from visiting the mosques; but their houses are better for them (for praying)." (Abu Dawud #567).

Because of Ibn `Umar and (more likely) `Umar's narration that the Prophet (s) indicated a certain door of his (?) mosque with the words: "Leave this door for women." Nafi` [the sub-narrator] said: "Ibn `Umar did not enter this door until his death. (Abu Dawud #462) Nafi` said: "`Umar ibn al-Khattab used to prohibit men to enter through the door reserved for women. (Abu Dawud #464).

Because of the Prophet's explicit saying reported by Abu Hurayra: Allah's Messenger said: "The best rows for men are the first rows and the worst, the last rows; and the best rows for women are the last rows and the worst, the first." (Muslim #881) Imam Nawawi said in his commentary on Muslim ("Sharh sahih Muslim" ed. Shaykh Khalil al-Mays, Beirut: Dar al-Qalam, 3rd ed. 4:404 book of Salat ch. 28 #132): "The part of the statement concerning men is understood in absolute terms; the part of the statement concerning women, in relative terms, i.e. if they pray in mixed congregation. However, if they pray alone, then the same applies to them as for the men: the best rows are the first, and the worst rows, the last. What is meant by "worst rows," both for men and for women, is that there is the least reward and merit in them and that they are the farthest from the criteria of the law, and vice-versa concerning "the best." The only merit of the last rows for women in a mixed congregation is that these rows are the farthest removed from mixture with men, from their sight by women, and from the heart's fondness upon seeing their motions and hearing their voices and so forth, and vice-versa concerning the blameworthiness of their first rows. And Allah knows best."

Because of Sahl ibn Sa`d's report: "I saw men having tied the ends of their lower garments around their necks, like children, due to shortage of cloth [because of poverty] and offering their prayers behind Allah's Messenger, Peace be upon him. One of the proclaimers said: O womenfolk, do not lift your heads [from prostration] until men raise theirs [and readjust their garments]." (Muslim #883). This shows that the women prayed behind the men, else there would have been no sense in specifically prohibiting them from raising their heads first.

So, it probably has authentic basis (in terms of beneficial) and we should not call it innovation in a haste.
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doorster
10-18-2008, 10:53 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by ummsara1108
Isn't there great love for Muhammad's wife for the things she had done? (PBUTB)

Was she (PBUH) not some kind of scholar, or in a high status amongst the women of her time?

If so then why was she? Muhammad (PBUH) surely knew better, wasn't his words more than her's? (PBUH) Don't remember hearing anything about her (PBUH) standing behind him?

Are there not more male imam's that can replace another male imam if he becomes sick or unable to fulfil his duties? Yes of course! Same would apply to a menstruating female imam, surely she would not be the only female imam.

I mean no offence, and apologize for (going off a bit) in my first post. And sorry I do not remember her name off hand.

I'm by no means am an equalist, but do believe in fairness, men have there place and women also have there place, however when it comes to religion we all have a place and a duty.
I am getting rather frustrated with advocates of feminism so I'll try to counter them in my usual clumsy style by quoting from other Muslim sites (at least until Bros. Woodrow and abu Sayyad come on line and explain to these persons in proper English).

Question:
"Why do women have to pray behind men in Islam?"

Answer:
Because the Prophet, May Peace and blessings of Allah be upon Him, said so.

further reading:

Woman Imam Leading Men and Women in Salat
By Dr Muzammil H. Siddiqi


Islam places no restrictions on women to teach, preach and guide both women and men.

“Men and women are supporters of each other. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong… (Al-Tawbah 9:71)

There are many women today who are fully qualified to be jurists (faqihah) and give religious opinions (fatawa). They do issue fatwa and teach Qur’an and Hadith in schools, colleges and universities all over the world.

Many Islamic organizations, Islamic centres and mosques in America also have very learned and knowledgeable sisters who participate in their Masajid’s boards and involve themselves in administration, teaching, preaching and counselling. Muslims should give them more opportunities, allow them and encourage them to become full partners in Islamic work.

Leading Salat, however, is restricted to male Imams only when the congregation consists of men and women both, whether the prayer is performed in the mosques or outside mosques, whether they are daily Salat or Friday and Eid Salat. Women are not allowed to lead such prayers.

This has also been the practice of Muslims all over the world since the time of the Prophet - peace be upon him. This Shar’i ruling is not because of any notion of spiritual deficiency among women. Men and women both are equal in the sight of Allah and both of them must be fully respected and honored. Women are allowed to lead the Salat when the congregation is all females. They are also allowed to lead the Salat in their homes among their family members, if they are more knowledgeable of the Qur’an and Islamic rules.

Recently some people have started a controversy about this matter of Shari’ah. Questions are being asked about the Islamic reasons why women are barred from leading the prayers of men and women both. In order to understand the rules and wisdom of Shari’ah in this matter, following points are in order:

There is a difference between Salat and Du’a in Islam. Salat is a fixed and formalized form of prayer. Its timings, positions, posture, style including the wording and recitations, are all fixed by the Prophet - peace be upon him. It is not permissible to introduce any new style or liturgy in Salat.

Du’a, however, is another form of Islamic prayer that is informal and there is no restriction as to who performs it and how and when it is performed. It can be performed in any language. It can be done individually or collectively. It can be led by males or females. In Salat we are supposed to follow the Sunnah. We cannot add or delete anything from the Salat if we want our Salat to be valid and acceptable to Allah.

About Du’a one can say that since we are not forbidden to do our Du’a in a particular manner we are allowed to do it the way we want it; but in Salat every thing is forbidden unless it is allowed. For example the Prophet -peace be upon him - did not say that Salat cannot be performed in English. He did not say that you cannot have Salat in congregation six times a day. Now based on this argument we cannot start having our Salat in English or six times every day.

In our Salat we stand very close to each other or as we say “shoulder to shoulder and ankle to ankle” almost touching each other. We stand in straight lines. We make ruku’ and sujud. We are supposed to pray with sincerity and devotion concentrating our heart and mind towards the prayer. For this reason the Prophet - peace be upon him - told us that men and women should have separate lines. The lines of men should be in the front area, then the lines of children and then women. The Imam should stand in front of the congregation and should make ruku’ and sajdah before the congregation and they should follow the Imam.

The ideal way in this structure of prayer service is to separate men from women and not allow a woman to be ahead of all men and bow and prostrate in front of them. Haya’ is a special character of Islam. It is emphasized that men and women both must observe Haya’ (modesty) always and especially in their places of worship. Prophet’s wife ‘Aishah and his Companion Ibn ‘Abbas are reported to have said that a woman leading other women in prayer should not stand in front of them like a male Imam, but in their midst.

Some people refer to the Hadith of Um Warqah who was allowed by the Prophet - peace be upon him - to lead the Salat. According to the Sunan of Abu Da’ud, the Hadith says: “Umm Waraqah wanted to accompany the Prophet - peace be upon him- to the battle of Badr, but the Prophet told her to stay in her home.” Further in this Hadith it is said that the Prophet - peace be upon him - used to visit her in her home. He appointed a person to give Adhan for her and he told her to lead the prayer for the people of her house (Ahl dariha). Abdur Rahman ibn Khallad (the reporter of this Hadith) said, “I saw her mu’adhin who was a very old man.” (Abu Da’ud 500). In another reports of this Hadith it is said that the Prophet told her to lead the prayers of the women of her house (nisa’ dariha). (Reported by Dar Qutni).

This Hadith does not give permission to women to lead the Salat of men in the Masjid, it is restricted to home and according to some version only for the women of the home. Most of the scholars of Hadith and Fiqh did not use this as a general permission of the Prophet for women to be Imams of the Masajid and lead men and women in prayers. If this would have been the general case then many other very able and qualified women in the time of the Prophet and after him would have been leading Salat in the Masajid.

We pray to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala that we sincerely follow His Deen without any innovation or exaggeration. Ameen.


contact - DrSiddiqi@aol.com




Related: Can Women Lead People in Friday Prayer?

:w:
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maryam87
10-18-2008, 10:58 AM
i agree that women can lead for WOMEN ONLY prayers but for mix come off it guys its big time HARAM. Is she supposed to recite Quran in a high voice infront of all the men? lol
yes i believe in gender equality but not beyond islamic laws
And Allah (swt) knows best
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Malaikah
10-18-2008, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummsara1108
Surely it states NOWHERE that a man can run naked but a woman has to cover from head to toe. They both must be modestly dressed.
Fascinating. Where have you seen Muslim men running around naked? I sure must have missed it!

Success of children in there adult lives is only due to the women, after all where are the men for the first part of there children's lives? Understandably they need to work to support the family and the women mostly stay home to guard and educate them, however a man's duties are less than what a woman's duties are. hmmm man = work (support) V woman = (wife, mother, guardian, educator, feeder, caretaker, nurse, listener) hmmm, you men are right about something there is no equality between men and women....WOMEN SIMPLY DO MORE
That is so unfair! You've totally ignored all the hard work men do! Who said men don't also have a duty to educate their children and look after them?

Let's not forget that men are also: husbands, fathers, guardians, educators, feeders (they might not always cook but at least they work hard for the money to buy the food with), listeners (who said men can't listen??), disipliner (my mum can't discipline us, sad but true), main source of income (typically - and this can be VERY stressful, imagine juggling two jobs or being fired and how ashamed they would be that they can't provide for their family, or being stuck in a job they hate to provide for their kids), gardener, handyman and so much more!!!

By the way, are you a Muslim?
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maryam87
10-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Well lets put it into perspective, usually the highest earning job is not necessarily the most work but the one with most responsibilities and the one with most stress
So I have to say men have the biggest responsiblility in the household so if anything goes wrong we just blame them LOL
Thats what mum does LOL
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Snowflake
10-18-2008, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
:sl:
even though it would not cause fitnah if men and women were in separate partitions, pray tell, who is gonna takeover every month during her monthly break (or there will be 2 lady imams who will have periods at different times)?

edit: this lady "imam" wants mixed jamaat so my original point is lost^^

:w:
A person with more knowledge than the rest can lead prayer. There is no thing as having a fixed imam in islam. So the 'monthly' issue isn't a problem.
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doorster
10-18-2008, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
A person with more knowledge than the rest can lead prayer. There is no thing as having a fixed imam in islam. So the 'monthly' issue isn't a problem.
ah yes that was all me (made in haste due to the fact that Imam in our local Mosque is paid a weekly "wage" by us and if we changed to 2 lady imams (due to the fact that every person in our mosque is not an aalim we are a collection of half-educated and illiterate Pakistanis) we will end up needing to collect twice the amount we currently require.

What do you say to this >> http://www.islamicboard.com/1029122-post21.html
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Cabdullahi
10-18-2008, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummsara1108
Success of children in there adult lives is only due to the women, after all where are the men for the first part of there children's lives? Understandably they need to work to support the family and the women mostly stay home to guard and educate them, however a man's duties are less than what a woman's duties are. hmmm man = work (support) V woman = (wife, mother, guardian, educator, feeder, caretaker, nurse, listener) hmmm, you men are right about something there is no equality between men and women....WOMEN SIMPLY DO MORE
Sister i dont know but from your name i guess you are married because you are the mother of sara and by the style you write by its as if though you have had a bad relationship with your husband and from that 1 encounter you have deduced that men are losers...

....ok you are right we men are losers but you have to go a bit further because both us men and women are losers
arguing about petty things,sister i would suggest you to stop visiting feminists websites that get poor women all hyped up and worked up because its clouding your judgment and that clashes with the 'set' islamic rules
Us males have testosterone and for a woman to bend over and lead the prayer with a gentle voice i dont want that!!! i want to focus and keep humble..as a femi you are probably gonna say 'its not fair we should also have testosterone'

No hard feelings my sister,i respect you with all my heart because you are a mother
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SixTen
10-18-2008, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by J.U.N.I.O.R
Sister i dont know but from your name i guess you are married because you are the mother of sara and by the style you write by its as if though you have had a bad relationship with your husband and from that 1 encounter you have deduced that men are losers...
Sherlock Junior? :giggling:
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MustafaMc
10-18-2008, 12:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
So, it probably has authentic basis (in terms of beneficial) and we should not call it innovation in a haste.
If so, quote an authentic hadith to show that women leading men in congregational prayer is not a modern innovation, or bida.
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barney
10-18-2008, 12:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Some people have crazy idea for gender equality, it is like saying guy should get pregnant for gender equality.

Yes. Just as it is totally impossible for a man to get pregnant, it is likewise laughably impossible for a woman to lead prayers. The very thought!

Removed by Admin.
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S_87
10-18-2008, 12:30 PM
Allah will always expose the plots of these evil people, they will never be successful in their plans of changing islam.
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doorster
10-18-2008, 12:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Yes. Just as it is totally impossible for a man to get pregnant, it is likewise laughably impossible for a woman to lead prayers. The very thought!

EDITED..:rollseyes
did you read this >> http://www.islamicboard.com/1029122-post21.html

or are you just doing your usual trolling duties without reading or understanding anything?
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Woodrow
10-18-2008, 01:03 PM
This thread is getting a bit too deep to continue without the input of a scholar.


It is far better we just look at this as some possible questions to refer to a scholar and not try to carry it on as our opinions over what is or is not bi'dah.

If you are a Muslim and do not know the answers ask a scholar or your Imam.

If you are not a Muslim, this thread has gone as far as us lay people can explain.

:threadclo:
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