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جوري
10-18-2008, 08:43 PM
The "knowledge" already exists within mans' autonomous soul, as he has already been "previously given" this knowledge. That is, all men; both regenerate and unregenerate. Regeneration therefore becomes a complete non-issue, for mans' soul already "innately knows all things" as "collective memories" from "past lives".


Allah SWT in the Quran states..

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الأَسْمَاء كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلاَئِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاء هَـؤُلاء إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {31}
[Pickthal 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

قَالُواْ سُبْحَانَكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَنَا إِلاَّ مَا عَلَّمْتَنَا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ {32}
[Pickthal 2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنبِئْهُم بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ فَلَمَّا أَنبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُل لَّكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ {33}
[Pickthal 2:33] He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.


My question to you then would be...
Do you think all the knowledge we amass in the world is already innate in us and we are to reach for it? that would cover such instinctive things as seeking God.

or do you think we are blank slates only taught only by formal schooling, from our parents, society and natural curiosity?

:w:
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barney
10-18-2008, 08:48 PM
Nice thread.
:D


I dont beleive in past lives. Sounds a bit Bhuddistic. Little evidence for it, although there is some.

We are blank slates i think, but have some genetic personality traits, as shown by studies on children who have grown up orphans sharing very similar interests skills and hence knowlage on aspects of life. A facinating subject indeed.
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جوري
10-18-2008, 09:40 PM
Nothing to do with past lives.. just that we already internally know everything, and coming across it in our day to day life is a mere recovery of our already embedded memories...
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barney
10-18-2008, 11:16 PM
That would suggest that the neural pathways that are formed when a particular thing is remembered are already burned, its simply a case of opening them.

I havnt run any numbers on it, but would suggest that the possible combinations of firings may make that a possibility. However we are talking here about fantastic numbers. I may be able to remember my mate Kevin in 1981 on the 17th of january outside Hillards Supermarket eating a banana, but what about him making that particular movement with his mouth as he ate it? Thats a new knowlage for my brain to accept. Its a singular moment in time that will never be the same again. Not from that angle not from that perspective emotionally, not from that particular chance of a gust of wind on my face. We are saying here that these pre-burned pathways present almost infinate oppotunitys?
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جوري
10-18-2008, 11:26 PM
Hmmmmmmn.. my thoughts were running more along you seeing a firefly for the first time, and always internally knowing what it is though you may have forgotten its name, and in seeing it again you retrieve that knowledge...

that the universe is built upon a number of themes which we are subconsciously aware of, but try to re acquaint ourselves during our life..

another example for instance is that you innately know all languages when born, but through your parents etc you bring that phonetic transcription into an actual language.. and that is actually on some level true, I have read through my studies though can't recall the name of the person.
also by the same token innately know of your God, but spend your life trying to recover your understanding of him...


thanks you for your input...
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Woodrow
10-18-2008, 11:41 PM
Inherited memory is an interesting thought. I do not think it has been proved, but there is evidence it exists. As such it helps explain some deja vu experiences, seems to cause what "appears" to be rebirth and reincarnation.

But it would not mean everybody would have the same memories. True we all trace our ancestry back to Adam, but the family tree has many branches and it seems each of us is the fruit from separate branches each with a unique twist or flavor.

The only people that could have the exact same inherited memories would be siblings and most likly only identical twins. Provided inherited memory exists.
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barney
10-18-2008, 11:57 PM
I see what your getting at, but the firefly's name is simply one tiny part of what we would remember when we see it for the first time. The intensity of the wing, the blade of grass behind it?

For this theory to hold solid we would need to map every possible combination of every possible thing and experience. The absolute intensity of my dislike of the pickled onion when i was 3 years old.

I somehow struggle that even the human brain has that many possible computations. We are truely looking at almost infinite numbers.
I am bending still further towards a blank sheet that is written on.

We must also factor in, how incredibly imperfect our memories are. Knowlage is a similarly infinate slab to which we add predjudice, experience, and almost again infinate other variables.
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جوري
10-19-2008, 12:39 AM
it isn't so much name as recognition of object do you understand what I am driving at?.. nothing in existence really shocks you? it might leave you with a feeling of wonder or admiration but not shock that it is beyond comprehension if you'll commit to learning it..
part of the reason you can't fathom heaven or hell is because you think or believe or ingrained to scope all that could possibly be, and nothing outside of that could exist, hence all that there is, is what we already know?

possible of course I am confabulating due to too much time spent writing on acid/base disorders :D

no other courageous souls out there?
perhaps this belongs in comparative or the philosophy section? if we have one?
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alcurad
10-19-2008, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الأَسْمَاء كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلاَئِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاء هَـؤُلاء إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ }
[Pickthal 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.
hmm, I always thought it meant he was given the ability to learn, rather than literally being taught everything.

collective unconsciousness is what i would say is responsible for for 'not being shocked' at finding new things, not actual inherited memory.
the human mind is limited, regardless of how great and unlimited it seems, and so hell and heaven are not very clear concepts.
I would go with a partial blank slate. the mind grows wherever it is allowed to grow.

btw I always thought about this, wouldn't people in heaven ever get bored, I mean there is so much you can do, and then what:?
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جوري
10-19-2008, 01:00 AM
what in your opinion is the difference between collective unconsciousness and innate memory?..

btw I am not using the verses to render my own interpretation to be quite honest I am not sure exactly what the verse means, and don't want to get preposterous with what I think it means.. it is a genuine philosophical query on my part...

I haven't formed an opinion but leaning toward having knowledge already, the way we babble as children and by three speak a language.. production from innate perception and prior understanding that we cultivate from the experience of others around us...
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alcurad
10-19-2008, 01:37 AM
collective unconsciousness is culture, or the fables formed to make us aware of certain things, or even religion. it is anything we are taught and conditioned to believe, that comes naturally as an answer that we rarely question, anything that seems obvious and gives us the feeling we know it all along.

I believe we babble in imitation, not because it's innate to speak, but it's innate to be able to form speech. if someone is raised amongst people who don't speak he will never speak no matter how much babbling he did or still does.
I don't think the ability to learn means you know it already.

ok this is too simplistic, but right now it's the best i can write...
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