The Rival to the Bible - BBC

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Quite the interesting read, I wonder what our resident Christian members will think of this?

------

The Rival to the Bible

What is probably the oldest known Bible is being digitised, reuniting its scattered parts for the first time since its discovery 160 years ago. It is markedly different from its modern equivalent. What's left out?

The world's oldest surviving Bible is in bits.

For 1,500 years, the Codex Sinaiticus lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain.

Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation. For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.

The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.

Anti-Semitic writings

The fact this book has survived at all is a miracle. Before its discovery in the early 19th Century by the Indiana Jones of his day, it remained hidden in St Catherine's Monastery since at least the 4th Century.
It survived because the desert air is ideal for preservation and because the monastery, on a Christian island in a Muslim sea, remained untouched, its walls unconquered.

Today, 30 mainly Greek Orthodox monks, dedicated to prayer, worship there, helped as in ages past by the Muslim Bedouin. For this place is holy to three great religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam; a land where you can still see the Burning Bush where God spoke to Moses.
The monastery itself has the greatest library of early manuscripts outside the Vatican - some 33,000, and a collection of icons second to none.

Not surprisingly, it is now a World Heritage Site and has been called a veritable Ark, bringing spiritual treasures safely through the turbulent centuries. In many people's eyes the greatest treasure is the Codex, written around the time of the first Christian Emperor Constantine.
When the different parts are digitally united next year in a £1m project, anyone will be able to compare and contrast the Codex and the modern Bible.

Firstly, the Codex contains two extra books in the New Testament. One is the little-known Shepherd of Hermas, written in Rome in the 2nd Century - the other, the Epistle of Barnabas. This goes out of its way to claim that it was the Jews, not the Romans, who killed Jesus, and is full of anti-Semitic kindling ready to be lit. "His blood be upon us," Barnabas has the Jews cry.

Discrepancies

Had this remained in subsequent versions, "the suffering of Jews in the subsequent centuries would, if possible, have been even worse", says the distinguished New Testament scholar Professor Bart Ehrman.
And although many of the other alterations and differences are minor, these may take some explaining for those who believe every word comes from God.

Faced with differing texts, which is the truly authentic one?

Mr Ehrman was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he read the original Greek texts and noticed some discrepancies.

The Bible we now use can't be the inerrant word of God, he says, since what we have are the sometimes mistaken words copied by fallible scribes.

"When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer 'which Bible?'"

The Codex - and other early manuscripts - omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.

Other differences concern how Jesus behaved. In one passage of the Codex, Jesus is said to be "angry" as he healed a leper, whereas the modern text records him as healing with "compassion".

Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned - until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Nor are there words of forgiveness from the cross. Jesus does not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Fundamentalists, who believe every word in the Bible is true, may find these differences unsettling.

But the picture is complicated. Some argue that another early Bible, the Codex Vaticanus, is in fact older. And there are other earlier texts of almost all the books in the bible, though none pulled together into a single volume.

Many Christians have long accepted that, while the Bible is the authoritative word of God, it is not inerrant. Human hands always make mistakes.

"It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex.

Others may take it as more evidence that the Bible is the word of man, not God.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7651105.stm

----

I look forward to researching this Bible when it gets online.

[The Khan]

:w:

Isn't the dead sea scrolls the oldest discovered Bible, which is also being digitalised?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls

[coddles76]

This only enhances what Muslims around the world have been arguing for centuries. I would hope, in a perfect world, that our christian friends will open there minds to the truth and reject the falsehood that has hijacked the teachings of Jesus(Peace be upon him). Sadly many will just ignore these facts that continue to open, crushing falsehood but muslims will not cease to argue and spread the truth of islam regardless. The Proof is there, The bible has many alterations/versions and the true teachings of Jesus(Peace be upon him) are lost and can only be found in islam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abu Sayyad;thank you for starting this thread. It seems we are always having our faith challenged in many ways, yet that is all we each have, faith without proof.

We cannot even prove that God exists, all Holy Books depend on faith and trust in God. Theists firmly believe in a greater life after death without any real proof. I trust in God that the Bible I read today has all the knowledge I need to gain salvation, without a hundred percent proof.

If God has hidden parts of the Bible away that I need for salvation then I am lost, but I trust that God is fair and just, and he has given me all I need for salvation in the Bible I read today. Although Bibles are interpreted by man and translated from many languages, I still trust that I am reading what God intends me to read.

Holy Books are written to inspire people to believe, and more importantly to live their lives in a good way, so they might find life with God after death. There are messages that run throughout the Bible, and if parts of the Bible are missing these same important messages can be picked up in other places.

I am not a scholar, and it will be interesting to read these “additions” next year.

Billions of people have lived and died, they have worshiped through many different religions, somehow God had a fair and just plan for each one of these people.

Somehow we are all brothers and sisters together despite all our different beliefs, there is one God our creator.:)

In the spirit of praying to a fair and just God

Eric

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[IbnAbdulHakim]

i'll never trust bbc when it comes to faith be it my own or others

[The Khan]

Mz, the discovery of the Codex Sinaiticus and the Dead Sea Scrolls is an undisputed fact, along with the differences when compared to modern day version of the Hebrew Tanakh as well as the multi-language Bible.

Greetings and peace be with you Abu Sayyad;thank you for starting this thread. It seems we are always having our faith challenged in many ways, yet that is all we each have, faith without proof.

We cannot even prove that God exists, all Holy Books depend on faith and trust in God. Theists firmly believe in a greater life after death without any real proof. I trust in God that the Bible I read today has all the knowledge I need to gain salvation, without a hundred percent proof.

If God has hidden parts of the Bible away that I need for salvation then I am lost, but I trust that God is fair and just, and he has given me all I need for salvation in the Bible I read today. Although Bibles are interpreted by man and translated from many languages, I still trust that I am reading what God intends me to read.

Holy Books are written to inspire people to believe, and more importantly to live their lives in a good way, so they might find life with God after death. There are messages that run throughout the Bible, and if parts of the Bible are missing these same important messages can be picked up in other places.

I am not a scholar, and it will be interesting to read these “additions” next year.

Billions of people have lived and died, they have worshiped through many different religions, somehow God had a fair and just plan for each one of these people.

Somehow we are all brothers and sisters together despite all our different beliefs, there is one God our creator.:)

In the spirit of praying to a fair and just God

Eric

Blind faith?

[Malaikah]

i'll never trust bbc when it comes to faith be it my own or others

:sl:

Exactly bro. I've seen articles similar to this were they try to show the Quran has been changed. I knew it was a load of crap (anyone who knows anything about the way the Quran was complied knows it is rubbish). Therefore, I would take this article with a pinch of salt too.

[coddles76]

If God has hidden parts of the Bible away that I need for salvation then I am lost, but I trust that God is fair and just, and he has given me all I need for salvation in the Bible I read today.

Peace be upon you Eric,
I applaud your faith and trust, The above article is just another of the many proofs that the bible you read today is NOT the true word of God. Your salvation will only come through the Quran, which is the true and infallible word of God, unaltered and unchanged for over 1400 Hundred years. God has given you all you need within the Quran as a complete guide which will perfect you as a man of faith. If you really want to follow Jesus(Peace be upon him), then follow the Quran. This is not a quest for conversion, its a statement of the facts. Many revelations had been tampered with by man but the Quran has the promise of protection from God himself, so it will never be able to be modified. Thats the trust you need in what you follow. Its this protection that will allow you to know that what your following and reading is the 100% true word of God without any errors. This is your salvation

[coddles76]

i'll never trust bbc when it comes to faith be it my own or others

We Don't need the BBC to confirm that the Bible has been modified and altered. The proof is already there in the many bible versions that have been created. So I would suggest that the BBC has just added to that proof.

[Hafswa]

Greetings and peace be with you all. I do not despute that the Bible has had several translations to the extent of some denominations having a Bible with additional books. This has caused several debates not only with other faiths but also with Christians as well on the authenticity of the Bible. Irrespective of the translations, I believe that the differences are simply a matter or translation and interprettation of the Indivivdual to whom God spoke to- prophets in this case- and Muhammed in the Isalm Religion. How I persive for example God's love , Perfection and natureis totally different from how a small child does or someone who had lost hope in life .

Additionally, the Bible says that In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. John 1:1 NIV I am not a scholar but my transalation of this is that the Word of God is all about Him and HIs nature which He communicated to individuals. The different perceptions of this word (translations) can be simply viewed like the different reactions, opinions and understanding that we each bear as individuals just like we demonstrate on this forum. I'm sure if we were all worthy to be Prophets, we would all translate what we receive from God differently.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

We Don't need the BBC to confirm that the Bible has been modified and altered. The proof is already there in the many bible versions that have been created. So I would suggest that the BBC has just added to that proof.

i didnt say the bible hasnt been altered.


Im just saying BBC is known for taking things out of context, and i know how angry that makes me feel when i see it done to islaam and i know how i wish other people would ignore its lies. So in the same manner i would ignore BBC when it comes to any faith and take from the most reliable sources

[Zafran]

Greetings and peace be with you Abu Sayyad;thank you for starting this thread. It seems we are always having our faith challenged in many ways, yet that is all we each have, faith without proof.

We cannot even prove that God exists, all Holy Books depend on faith and trust in God. Theists firmly believe in a greater life after death without any real proof. I trust in God that the Bible I read today has all the knowledge I need to gain salvation, without a hundred percent proof.

If God has hidden parts of the Bible away that I need for salvation then I am lost, but I trust that God is fair and just, and he has given me all I need for salvation in the Bible I read today. Although Bibles are interpreted by man and translated from many languages, I still trust that I am reading what God intends me to read.

Holy Books are written to inspire people to believe, and more importantly to live their lives in a good way, so they might find life with God after death. There are messages that run throughout the Bible, and if parts of the Bible are missing these same important messages can be picked up in other places.

I am not a scholar, and it will be interesting to read these “additions” next year.

Billions of people have lived and died, they have worshiped through many different religions, somehow God had a fair and just plan for each one of these people.

Somehow we are all brothers and sisters together despite all our different beliefs, there is one God our creator.:)

In the spirit of praying to a fair and just God

Eric

salaam

That sounds like blind faith. As Muslims we believe that the proof of God is the messengers (Adam to Muhammad pbut) and the last scripture (The Quran) in its original language (arabic) and no human can produce anything like it. The conditions are in the Quran for us Muslims and the rest of humainty should look into seriously. Reading your statement it looks to me that you have to believe your book blindly, unlike Islam as the Quran has a very reflective approach. I always expect the christain to say that the bible and Jesus are his proofs not that "We cannot even prove that God exists" - just look around you and read the Quran seriously to learn about the existince of God, what better way then to listen to the word of God.

peace.

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

Quite the interesting read, I wonder what our resident Christian members will think of this?

i'm thinking ZERO EFFECT!
------

The Rival to the Bible

What is probably the oldest known Bible is being digitised, reuniting its scattered parts for the first time since its discovery 160 years ago. It is markedly different from its modern equivalent. What's left out?

The world's oldest surviving Bible is in bits.

as long a bit points to something they want to use, they are fine with it...

For 1,500 years, the Codex Sinaiticus lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain.

Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation. For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer.

MOST Christians just don't believe that, they only use the bits that agree with what they say anyway...

It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.

if Paul can alter the religion, man can alter the "Bible", it makes no difference to "Christians," as i've said, "they only use the bits that agree with what they say anyway..."

The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.

Anti-Semitic writings

The fact this book has survived at all is a miracle. Before its discovery in the early 19th Century by the Indiana Jones of his day, it remained hidden in St Catherine's Monastery since at least the 4th Century.
It survived because the desert air is ideal for preservation and because the monastery, on a Christian island in a Muslim sea, remained untouched, its walls unconquered.

Today, 30 mainly Greek Orthodox monks, dedicated to prayer, worship there, helped as in ages past by the Muslim Bedouin. For this place is holy to three great religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam; a land where you can still see the Burning Bush where God spoke to Moses.
The monastery itself has the greatest library of early manuscripts outside the Vatican - some 33,000, and a collection of icons second to none.

Not surprisingly, it is now a World Heritage Site and has been called a veritable Ark, bringing spiritual treasures safely through the turbulent centuries. In many people's eyes the greatest treasure is the Codex, written around the time of the first Christian Emperor Constantine.
When the different parts are digitally united next year in a £1m project, anyone will be able to compare and contrast the Codex and the modern Bible.

Firstly, the Codex contains two extra books in the New Testament. One is the little-known Shepherd of Hermas, written in Rome in the 2nd Century - the other, the Epistle of Barnabas. This goes out of its way to claim that it was the Jews, not the Romans, who killed Jesus, and is full of anti-Semitic kindling ready to be lit. "His blood be upon us," Barnabas has the Jews cry.

Discrepancies

Had this remained in subsequent versions, "the suffering of Jews in the subsequent centuries would, if possible, have been even worse", says the distinguished New Testament scholar Professor Bart Ehrman.
And although many of the other alterations and differences are minor, these may take some explaining for those who believe every word comes from God.

Faced with differing texts, which is the truly authentic one?


like i said, "they only use the bits that agree with what they say anyway..."

Mr Ehrman was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he read the original Greek texts and noticed some discrepancies.

The Bible we now use can't be the inerrant word of God, he says, since what we have are the sometimes mistaken words copied by fallible scribes.

most "Christians DON'T have a problem with that!

"When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer 'which Bible?'"

actually, that's what Muslims say!

The Codex - and other early manuscripts - omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.

Other differences concern how Jesus behaved. In one passage of the Codex, Jesus is said to be "angry" as he healed a leper, whereas the modern text records him as healing with "compassion".

Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned - until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Nor are there words of forgiveness from the cross. Jesus does not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Fundamentalists, who believe every word in the Bible is true, may find these differences unsettling.

i doubt it...

But the picture is complicated. Some argue that another early Bible, the Codex Vaticanus, is in fact older. And there are other earlier texts of almost all the books in the bible, though none pulled together into a single volume.

Many Christians have long accepted that, while the Bible is the authoritative word of God, it is not inerrant. Human hands always make mistakes.

"It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex.

that's sounds like what they say...

Others may take it as more evidence that the Bible is the word of man, not God.

yes, but NOT the Christians..

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7651105.stm

----

I look forward to researching this Bible when it gets online.

:sl:

OLD NEWS, really!

even as it exists now, "Christians" don't faithfully follow the Bible, as they continue to reinterpret it, they interpret it with their current practices in mind.

to misquote, Paul, "whatever it takes!"

the "Christian" message is about "accepting Jesus as your personal saviour', ANYTHING that conflicts with that is easily ignored.

a tempest in a teacup!

:w:

[barney]

i'll never trust bbc when it comes to faith be it my own or others

The BBC are not translating it. They are reporting the results.

[doorster]

The BBC are not translating it. They are reporting the results.

I was going to say that too.

if anything BBC supports Christianity, one of its highest bosses is a practising Christian.

I trust BBC more than any news/current affairs channel from anywhere in the world (except war related news) during the times when Britain is at war itself

[coddles76]

i didnt say the bible hasnt been altered.


Im just saying BBC is known for taking things out of context, and i know how angry that makes me feel when i see it done to islaam and i know how i wish other people would ignore its lies. So in the same manner i would ignore BBC when it comes to any faith and take from the most reliable sources

Thankyou Mz, My personal view is that I haven't completely disregarded the News viewed by the BBC as it only enhances the facts that the Bible has been altered so we can atleast take that evidence as extra proof.
And Allah SWT knows best.

[Malaikah]

Thankyou Mz, My personal view is that I haven't completely disregarded the News viewed by the BBC as it only enhances the facts that the Bible has been altered so we can atleast take that evidence as extra proof.

Well, the proof is no good if it isn't true, because if you try to convince someone using it they can easily refute you and then you look like the person who doesn't have a clue what's going on!

[coddles76]

Well, the proof is no good if it isn't true, because if you try to convince someone using it they can easily refute you and then you look like the person who doesn't have a clue what's going on!

Thankyou for you remarks Malaikah but as the statement says, this is my personal view on the matter. I understand that I can be easily refutted and so can any man that exsists, as I am only human........but no one can refute the words of Allah SWT, "The Sentence that comes from Me cannot be changed, and I am not unjust (to the least) to the slaves." (Qaf 50:29)", And Allah SWT has already stated these facts.

But those among them who did wrong changed the word that had been told to them.(Al-A'raf 7:162)

But those who did wrong changed the word from that which had been told to them for another, so We sent upon the wrong-doers Rijzan (a punishment) from the heaven because of their rebelling against Allah's Obedience. (Al-Baqarah 2:59)

[Malaikah]

You personal view is that it is okay to use fake proof to prove a valid point?

[coddles76]

You personal view is that it is okay to use fake proof to prove a valid point?

Sorry Malaikah but I never knew that you had proved that it was fake. Did you state the proof that it was fake already? cause if you have I must of missed it. I guess your making a statement against an assumption. Once again, My personal view is that Whether or not its fake we don't need BBC to prove the fact that the Bible has been altered. MY View is that since I know for a fact that the bible has been altered I won't discard the article in the BBC Entirely. I will just take it on board as extra knowledge.

[Follower]

[URL="http://www.sinaiticus.com/"[/URL]

All of you should read it for yourself! LOL!!

[Follower]

http://www.sinaiticus.com/

[Follower]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through him, and without him came into being not one thing that is in being.

4 In him is life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There came a man, sent from God; his name was John:

7 this man came for a testimony, that he might testify of the light, that all through him might believe.

8 He was not the light, but came that he might testify of the light.

9 That was the true light, which, coming into the world, gives light to every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came to his own country, and his own people received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, to those that believe on his name,

13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.