An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

[Questfortruth]

:sl:

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=722493&da=y

[MSalman]

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

just to point out that the author's approach doesn't completely follow the Sunni 'aqeedah (creed). I'm sure people who have studied this subject know what i'm talking about.

[Trumble]

First, do human beings exist or not? No one can rationally prove that we do not exist. Any person that argues that we do not exist, disproves himself or herself by the very fact of the denial. Non existent beings don’t speak. So, it is clear that we exist because we cannot deny it without being stupid or mad.

Hmmmm...

It certainly seems true that anyone who denied they existed would be self-refuting; a sort of cogito ergo sum in reverse. That's about as far as it goes, though, there is nothing to stop you denying that anybody else exists, or least accepting that you don't and can't know if they do or not, a position known as solipsism.

Since we did not make ourselves, it follows that something made us. This is also clear.

As mud. Why does it 'follow' that 'something' made us?

Let us refer to the thing that brought us into being as our Cause. Since we all agree that we have a Cause, the question can never be whether our Cause exists or not, rather what is the nature of this Cause. Let me reword the whole things. Some people call this Cause “God”. So, if we replace Cause with God, we can see that questions as to whether or not God exists become nonsensical. The real issue is never whether there is God but what kind of God are we talking about.

Again, even if you accept the necessity for a 'cause' (of people, at least) there is no reason it need be a 'thing'. The second point is more interesting though. Let me reword things. Some people call this Cause "the Flying Spaghetti Monster". Therefore, the real issue is not whether there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster, but what sort of Flying Spaghetti Monster we are talking about. Or, more even interestingly, some people call this cause "NOT God". Therefore, the real issue is what sort of 'NOT God' we are talking about.

“Evolution, explains the origin of everything in space. So, God does not exist. Discuss.”

Where do you begin with this one?

You can both begin, and end, with one word, STRAWMAN

After that, I rather lost interest.

[root]

First, do human beings exist or not? No one can rationally prove that we do not exist.

I exist, all around me are mere images of my own created reality. "Probably"

Any person that argues that we do not exist, disproves himself or herself by the very fact of the denial.

I don't think it does. I have already demonstarted that I can exist alone and everyone else does not. You simply cannot prove me wrong......

Non existent beings don’t speak. So, it is clear that we exist because we cannot deny it without being stupid or mad.

I am neither stupid or mad please don't offend me with my belief that I alone exist and everyone else is just imagenary within my own mind.....

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[brotherinfaith]

let's say that we don't exist can anyone tell me how we do not exist ?
if you say that you don't exist how can i know you then and how can you know me if you don't exist and what about all our feelings experiences desires emotions good actions bad ones and all the events which keep going on around us all the time.when you say that something can move without having a force applied to it you are violating the laws of physics and then you are trying to disprove what was proved by expreience and no one can agree with that our life is the same because a life can never exist without someone tio live it and one who can not think and feel and react and act that one is called dead and that existence is what makes the difference between us and the dead

[root]

let's say that we don't exist can anyone tell me how we do not exist ?

Because I exist, you dont.

if you say that you don't exist how can i know you then and how can you know me if you don't exist and what about all our feelings experiences desires emotions good actions bad ones and all the events which keep going on around us all the time.

I say that I exist

when you say that something can move without having a force applied to it you are violating the laws of physics

The laws of physics do not exist either, they too are "rules" made by my brain to give me a sense of reality. These rules were to give me a sense of existense in a world that is not real, like you.

and then you are trying to disprove what was proved by expreience and no one can agree with that our life is the same because a life can never exist

You cannot "prove" my hypothosis is wrong. You cannot prove you are right, your left with no other logical conclusion other than my hypothosis being correct has a probability that I am right, no matter how illogical it might be to you. Therefore, a probability does exist that you are not real.

without someone tio live it and one who can not think and feel and react and act that one is called dead and that existence is what makes the difference between us and the dead

If something never really existed, how can it die. My brain simply uses death as a convenient means of disposing of someone in a way that makes sense to me.

Of course if you can prove me wrong, feel free and bring forth the evidence!!!!

[Hamayun]

Because I exist, you dont.

Thats impressive. So if I stab you with a rusty knife you won't feel a thing :)

What is your address?

I think this could be a very interesting experiment :coolious:

[root]

Thats impressive. So if I stab you with a rusty knife you won't feel a thing :)

What is your address?

I think this could be a very interesting experiment :coolious:

I will cease to exist for a while, my mind must not be pleased that I did not prey enough to myself or something and punished me, not to worry though I will immediately regain conciousness at some point and a few years later after that become self aware again. You cannot destroy me really, I simply play out another life in my mind then start all over again.....

If my mind will's it.

[Abdul Fattah]

I wasn't able to read the full article either as I got frustrated with the many logical fallacies. I remember writing a refutation somewhere on this forum about another book of this author (I think it was the good logic of evil) but I can't find it...
The ideologies in these books lean close to sufism where they mix in pseudo-philosophy with mysticism (which in my opinion are two things that contradict one another). I'd advice people to be careful with these books...

[MSalman]

As mud. Why does it 'follow' that 'something' made us?

Let's simply follow the rhetoric questions of the Qur'aan: "Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief". [52:35-36 - interpretation of the meaning]. Now, there're only two possibilities: (1) We always have been around (2) Someone which always has been around created us

I exist, all around me are mere images of my own created reality. "Probably"

If every single individual prove that they exist then ...

[brotherinfaith]

when a human loses all ability to use his logic to find the truth they don't exist to as god said '' say does the one who sees as the blind one surely they are not equal '' and he said '' dead are not equal to alive ones'' yes you are right fellow you don't exist

[Questfortruth]

I wasn't able to read the full article either as I got frustrated with the many logical fallacies. I remember writing a refutation somewhere on this forum about another book of this author (I think it was the good logic of evil) but I can't find it...
The ideologies in these books lean close to sufism where they mix in pseudo-philosophy with mysticism (which in my opinion are two things that contradict one another). I'd advice people to be careful with these books...

I met the person who maintains the website and published his own books. I am not quite sure if he wrote this book aswell. But he does make claims that average Muslims would disagree. Such as we are inside Allah swt. He claimed he knows the R'uh. Apparently, something no Muslim knew of before. So its like secret knowledge. He is very smart but I personally think too smart for his own good. He agrees with the Mu'tazilites Aqeeda. For some reason he uses Algebraic problems to find answers in Quran. He made bunch of claims that I cannot recall anymore.

I found this book interesting. Can you please point out the logical fallacies? I am not too educated on these sorts of in-depth matters on Islam.

[Trumble]

Let's simply follow the rhetoric questions of the Qur'aan: "Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief". [52:35-36 - interpretation of the meaning]. Now, there're only two possibilities: (1) We always have been around (2) Someone which always has been around created us

That passage makes exactly the same logical error, the conclusion simply doesn't follow from the premises. Indeed, this is actually rather worse as it makes a far more specific claim. Why should there be 'someone'? Why, even if there was, need that 'someone' have always been around? Sure, there might be suggested answers to those questions, but they are not argued there.

You use the essential word in 'rhetoric'. It is rhetoric, and should be assessed on that basis. The so called 'amazing proof', however, at least starts off trying to present its conclusions using formal logic and should be assessed on that basis.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Questfortruth;

Can you please point out the logical fallacies?

If there were absolute proof for the existence of God then we would all see this proof in the same way. There is Islamic, Christian and Hindu, ways to prove Gods existence, but this is not proof, this is faith.

2+2 = 4, Muslims, Christians and Hindus will agree on this proof in the same way.

Now find a proof for the existence of God that Christians, Muslims and Hindus can agree on and see in the same way. But do not loose your faith and trust in God, these questions always exist to challenge our beliefs.:)

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God,

Eric

[MSalman]

That passage makes exactly the same logical error, the conclusion simply doesn't follow from the premises. Indeed, this is actually rather worse as it makes a far more specific claim. Why should there be 'someone'? Why, even if there was, need that 'someone' have always been around? Sure, there might be suggested answers to those questions, but they are not argued there.

maybe you can tell us how do you explain our coming into existence and coming only recently rationally and logically.

[Hamayun]

maybe you can tell us how do you explain our coming into existence and coming only recently rationally and logically.

You can't expect that of Brother Trumble...

Big words, confusion, philosophy, and long encrypted sentences are Trumble's fortes. :D

[Gator]

maybe you can tell us how do you explain our coming into existence and coming only recently rationally and logically.

Just to jump in here if this wasn't just for Trumble.

How about through natural non-deity guided processes?

[Questfortruth]

I feel bad for disbelievers. They live such a miserable life on earth because they reject Allah. After they die they will find the truth and that will not help them in anyway.

[KAding]

I feel bad for disbelievers. They live such a miserable life on earth because they reject Allah. After they die they will find the truth and that will not help them in anyway.

You are mistaken we live a miserable life on this earth. My life is quite enjoyable, thank you very much.

[MSalman]

How about through natural non-deity guided processes?

how do you explain our coming to existence only recently?

[Gator]

how do you explain our coming to existence only recently?

Well by natural process that gave rise to humans approximately 300,000 years ago.

[MSalman]

^why this much late, why not early or why not later? You know that the natural process needs things to work with. If every thing which would needed to give rise to creation were already present, what took it so long; there was nothing to stop the natural process? If those things were not already present then there's no other place to get them from, so where did they come from?

I guess, i save the example for later.

[Gator]

I'm sorry, I don't get the question. Are you asking why humans evolved at the exact time that they did? Or asking what purpose for the timing of the evolution? Or are you asking for transitional forms leading up to humans and their time frame?

If you could rephrase or give the example later, I would appreciate it.

But I would point out it may be irrelevant to the thread as the point being discussed was that "Since humans exist, they must have been caused and whatever the cause let's call it god".

I believe that any definition of god must include that it is a conscious, intelligent being.

The natural processes I believe created everything are not conscious or intellgent.

Thanks.

[Hamayun]

Like a Brother once said...

"You yourself are the proof of God but you fail to see it."

That sums it up.
Now you can debate till eternity and not come to a conclusion. Your choice...

[Gator]

Hi.

We have each come to our own conclusions. Here we are just discussing and trying to communicate and understand them.

Thanks.

[barney]

You are mistaken we live a miserable life on this earth. My life is quite enjoyable, thank you very much.

Yup, mine too.And I dont have to spend what life i do have worrying about "Hell". I can simply get on with things.

[MSalman]

Are you asking why humans evolved at the exact time that they did?

yes

[Gator]

Well, if it was through natural processes, there would be no purpose as to the timing.

Therefore, humans would be result of one more step in the changes of genetic material of living creatures as it (1) adapts to the payoffs of different environmental conditions and (2) is constricted by the gaussian likeliness of permutations given the proceeding arrangement of genetic material.

Why weren't humans developed at the instant of the Big Bang? Well no planet yet so it would have violated premise (1).

Why didn't humans come about 350 million years ago? We'll I'd surmise the drastic change in genetic material that would had to have taken place to go from the human ancestor at that time directly to human was drastic, so it did not take place in favor of other permutations from that ancestor that survived. If it did it would have violated premise (2).

Why did humans appear about 300k years ago? Because the change in genetic material from the direct human ancestor was not drastic and not preceeded by another possible change (therefore passing premise (2)) and the payoff of environmental conditions were favorable for human survival given their physical and mental attributes (poor neaderthals).

The timing of humans appearing on earth was the sum result of the state of nature progression influenced by the differing payoffs and genetic changes that occured.

(That was a tough question, but probably not how you think.)

Thanks.

[brotherinfaith]

so where the proof in allt hsi which says that what you believe is right ?

talking about the big bang where the matter came fromso that there will be an explosion ?
god says ''[12] Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);

[13] Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;

[14] Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create! '' surat al muminun.
if those who pretend to know when man was created why they didn't know how man was formed inside his mother till the last century when our prophet told us about it forteen century ago.who is worth believing then the one who speaks facts or the one who have just theories ?
and by the way our faith is not the blind kind of faith in fact there is now faith in islam without knowledge

[Woodrow]

This is a very old topic of discussion amongst instructors of debating. It is a very vivid tool for showing it is impossible to prove a negative and impossible to prove a fact unless all parties agree to the same references.

Sort of like telling a person that the word gold exists and you are using an English dictionary while the other person is using a Spanish dictionary.



I will let the thread continue, but keep in mind this can go on ad infinitum with no agreement.

[Gator]

so where the proof in allt hsi which says that what you believe is right ?

Hi there. We aren't talking proofs here. As an agnostic I don't believe the TRUTH to be ultimately knowable.

As for the quran's description of embryology, I would raise the usual counter arguments. For those visit another thread.

If we could, I'd like to get back on track...

The premise put out was that "Since humans are here, we must have been caused and since we can call that cause (whatever it is) god, there must be a god"

My counter was that "my basic definition of god would include consciousness and intelligence and since another possiblity would be non-conscious natural causes and I would not call natural causes "god", the premise fails."

The theists next counter should be to either say why (1) natural processes can be included in a definition of god or (2) natural processes are not a possiblity.

Thanks.

[Duncan Ferguson]

First, do human beings exist or not? No one can rationally prove that we do not exist. Any person that argues that we do not exist, disproves himself or herself by the very fact of the denial. Non existent beings don’t speak. So, it is clear that we exist because we cannot deny it without being stupid or mad. Since we did not make ourselves, it follows that something made us. This is also clear.

35 pages of this...

"The Bridge" is equivocating when he speaks of "made". One meaning of "made" is "designed" as in "something designed us". But something that is made does not have to be designed. Humans are not made in the same way that chairs or watches are made.

Some people call this Cause “God”. So, if we replace Cause with God, we can see that questions as to whether or not God exists become nonsensical. The real issue is never whether there is God but what kind of God are we talking about.

If we replace the word cause with "Frank the Bus Driver" we can see that questions as to whether or not Frank the Bus Driver exists become nonsensical. Or maybe that whole paragraph is nonsensical. Or maybe we could replace cause with evolution - unlike with God or Frank the Bus Driver we would be able to perform tests to check the validity of such an assertion.

[MSalman]

@Gator
I'm not talking about the humans specifically; my question is regarding the creation, you can say the universe in other words.

Let's recall the definition and basic assumption: A process tells us how things came about. Now, for evolution process to work and explain the coming of our creation, there must be some things to start with. We assumed that they were always present. Let's call these things 'alpha' for simplicity.

So, in the beginning there was nothing beside alpha, and alpha doesn't have a conscious. If there was no other factor present, how did the first change come about - meaning how did it start to evolve? Without any first and subsequent changes it should be just sitting there no matter how many years pass by. For now, let's assume that 'alpha' has been evolving from eternity and then some X years ago it became/gave rise to our universe. There was nothing else beside alpha so nothing could limit its changes and nor it had a conscious. So why did it evolve into universe or gave rise to universe recently? Remember that there was nothing to limit it and there's no way it could have controlled its own changes due to absence of consciousness. So, I can conclude that alpha didn't have everything which by evolution could give rise to us. So then, where did it get it from because there was nothing beside alpha? But if you say alpha had everything then go back to original question.

Now, if you say because not all the changes had taken place but then again I ask, there was nothing to limit it and it had everything then changes should took place right away. To say otherwise is saying that it was limited by certain factors but there was nothing beside alpha and so how could anything limit it! Even so, why did all the changes completed only recently took place now? Why not earlier or later? You could say they just did. So, I ask is this a valid and logical conclusion and evidence?

lol, anyway enjoy it

[Gator]

@Gator
I'm not talking about the humans specifically; my question is regarding the creation, you can say the universe in other words.

OK. Just a quick thing, evolution has nothing to do with creation or giving rise to life. Its just how things changed once life began. Once again we are dealing with philosophical questions so there is no evidence and noone knows the true answers.

Alright, I'm going to try present a possible scenario with and unconscious cause. This is just my thoughts given your parameters.

Before the universe there was unconscious "alpha".
The basic nature of "alpha" was fluctuating?
Then in a certain moment in these fluctuations "alpha" released energy.
The energy turned into matter (E=mc^2) and gave rise to the universe et al.

That would account for an non-conscous start to the universe and take care of the timing question.

Thanks, this is fun.

[Hamayun]

OK. Just a quick thing, evolution has nothing to do with creation or giving rise to life. Its just how things changed once life began. Once again we are dealing with philosophical questions so there is no evidence and noone knows the true answers.

Alright, I'm going to try present a possible scenario with and unconscious cause. This is just my thoughts given your parameters.

Before the universe there was unconscious "alpha".
The basic nature of "alpha" was fluctuating?
Then in a certain moment in these fluctuations "alpha" released energy.
The energy turned into matter (E=mc^2) and gave rise to the universe et al.

That would account for an non-conscous start to the universe and take care of the timing question.

Thanks, this is fun.

Did Alpha exist since infinity?

If it did was it in a steady state in the beginning?

Oh hang on there is no beginning?

So it was in an unsteady state since infinity? That in itself is a contradiction.

What caused the unsteady state? If Alpha is one single entity and has existed since infinity then how can it be unstable?

And I still haven't got to the the question about the composition and source of Alpha...

[Gator]

Did Alpha exist since infinity? In this case yes.

If it did was it in a steady state in the beginning? No there was no beginning and not in a steady state because its basic structure acted upon itself continuously creating fluctuations

Oh hang on there is no beginning? Right no beginning.

So it was in an unsteady state since infinity? That in itself is a contradiction. For matter or energy that would be the case but this is neither.

What caused the unsteady state? If Alpha is one single entity and has existed since infinity then how can it be unstable? See above.

And I still haven't got to the the question about the composition and source of Alpha... Great!

Answers in blue. Thanks.

[Hamayun]

For matter or energy that would be the case but this is neither.

lol So its not matter or energy?

If its not matter or energy then "it" does not exist....

and if "it" does not exist then there can be no Big Bang.

You do realise to cause a Big Bang you would need matter and energy?

[Trumble]

lol So its not matter or energy?

If its not matter or energy then "it" does not exist....

Fascinating. Exactly how do you reach that conclusion; you seem to be missing an argument? Imagine that you are holding a red rose, which you proceed to sniff. Your experience of the colour red undoubtably exists, is that experience matter or energy? Your experience of the smell exists, is that experience matter or energy? Indeed, your thought of the imaginary rose exists; is that thought made of matter or energy?

Is the human soul made out of matter or energy? Is God made out of matter or energy?

You do realise to cause a Big Bang you would need matter and energy?

I think that might be news to most cosmologists. Which particular theory are you referring to?

BTW, I wouldn't dismiss Gator's friend 'alpha' too quickly, particularly if we return to renaming and call it `a hypothetical vector in the Hilbert space of a theory of quantum gravity' ;)

[Hamayun]

Fascinating. Exactly how do you reach that conclusion; you seem to be missing an argument? Imagine that you are holding a red rose, which you proceed to sniff. Your experience of the colour red undoubtably exists, is that experience matter or energy? Your experience of the smell exists, is that experience matter or energy? Indeed, your thought of the imaginary rose exists; is that thought made of matter or energy?

Is the human soul made out of matter or energy? Is God made out of matter or energy?




I think that might be news to most cosmologists. Which particular theory are you referring to?

So you are comparing an experience in my head to the source of Big Bang? :? what exactly is that supposed to mean?

So according to you the big bang had nothing to do with matter or energy? How do you explain the Sun and the matter in the universe?

I have to say your posts have always been full of many sarcastic words but never any real information. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

[Gator]

BTW, I wouldn't dismiss Gator's friend 'alpha' too quickly, particularly if we return to renaming and call it `a hypothetical vector in the Hilbert space of a theory of quantum gravity' ;)

Dang! Great catch Trumble!

Yes islamiclife's "alpha" (he started it) and what I'm describing is the theory of folds in the fabric of space time and the curvature which fluctuates without cause which cause particles to appear and disappear from nothing sponaneously all the time. (very roughly speaking).

So much for my fun Trumble.

[Trumble]

So you are comparing an experience in my head to the source of Big Bang? :? what exactly is that supposed to mean?

It was simply to demonstrate that for something to be real it is at least an open question as to whether it has to consist of matter or energy.

So according to you the big bang had nothing to do with matter or energy? How do you explain the Sun and the matter in the universe?

I said nothing of the sort. Your claim was that matter and energy were needed to create the Big Bang. The Sun and matter in the universe originated with the Big Bang.

I have to say your posts have always been full of many sarcastic words but never any real information. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

It would only sound harsh from someone who knew what they were talking about and here, frankly, you don't. Gator's example is actually very clever, and far closer to current thinking on the Big Bang than your rather strange idea of it. Where is this matter and energy needed to 'cause' the Big Bang supposed to have come from?

[Hamayun]

It was simply to demonstrate that for something to be real it is at least an open question as to whether it has to consist of matter or energy.

So could I create an explosion like big bang using an experience from my brain or something similar? Cool!

It would only sound harsh from someone who knew what they were talking about and here, frankly, you don't.

Do you???

I have yet to see a post from you that contains any real information. Being sarcastic to others might make you feel intelligent but that is just "an experience in your mind" as there is no evidence of its existence so far.

Where is this matter and energy needed to 'cause' the Big Bang supposed to have come from?

Funny!!! I was just about to ask you the same thing. Where did Alpha come from? If it does not contain matter or energy then how is it capable of creating it? Enlighten me oh wise one...

[Trumble]

So could I create an explosion like big bang using an experience from my brain or something similar? Cool!

I don't recall suggesting that; my intention was, as I said, solely to demonstrate that for something to be real it need not be made of matter or energy. Perhaps a more directly relevant example may help.. probability functions aren't made of mass or energy either. As an aside let's assume you couldn't do that. Surely you believe, though, that God did?

I have yet to see a post from you that contains any real information. Being sarcastic to others might make you feel intelligent but that is just "an experience in your mind" as there is no evidence of its existence so far.

I haven't been 'sarcastic' to anybody (and will ignore the puerile insult). The 'real information', I'm afraid, you are just choosing to ignore.

Funny!!! I was just about to ask you the same question Oh wise one...

Perhaps you might care to actually answer? I have no need to... you are the only one claiming such matter and energy were needed to 'create' the Big Bang.

[barney]

Gator, could you change your "tag" to agnostic, its confusing as imaginary hell.

[MSalman]

Bimsmillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem

Let's rewind back a bit because i think we're forgetting where the whole discussion started from:

I said, concluding from the ayaat of the Qur'aan, either we've always been around or were created by someone who has always been around. There is not third possibility. Note: the word "we" is not referring to humans specifically; i'm referring to the whole creation.

The response was: why it has to be someone or why is it has to someone who has always been around?

The answer is that there's no other possibility and you cannot explain logically why we only came recently.

Gator responded: how about a natural process?

I think he misunderstood my use of the word "we", he thought i was talking specifically talking about humans.

For argument sake if we agree with him then according to him it only explains the life after the big bang and not before that.

So, we're stuck again and go back:

1) we've always been around
2) something/someone who has always been around gave rise to this universe

Again, there's no third possibility, unless someone can show me.

Now, if we assume that a non-conscious entity gave rise to universe then we're simply saying that there was something always existed from eternity, alpha, it could be anything i.e. matter, energy, etc. So, we can conclude that without any changes in alpha, it couldn't have give rise to universe, unless you say that the alpha was the universe but this is not correct - both logically and scientifically. Now, there're few cases to consider:

1) Alpha was always at rest
2) Something else caused its beginning to change
3) Alpha was always changing
4) Alpha caused it beginning to change

1) Alpha was always at rest

If so, then it would have simply remained what it was for eternity and none of us would be here today

2) Something else caused its beginning to change

There was nothing else existed beside Alpha so something else couldn't have done it.

The other two cases are lengthy but here is my poor attempt and I hope you enjoy it:

3) Alpha was always changing

Here, we're saying that there was no beginning of change. However, by definition, the change are successive. No change come at once, there has to be a prior change. In other words, any subsequent change requires a prior change. Even if we assume that it has been changing forever then it should have been given rise to us from eternity because there's nothing to limit it to not to do so. Have this happened? I don't think so, only X billion years ago this universe came into being. The other possibility is that it required certain things but then where did it get those things from?

4) Alpha caused it beginning to change

This possibility again have the same problem as the one at above: if alpha has been around from eternity then there was nothing beside it, nothing could limit and it was the reality. Whatever we see today or has come in the past or will come in the future must always have been the possibility of the alpha or the result of its changes. For example, let's say it requires "y" to make the universe. This "y" must always have been present in alpha because there was no other place to get it. If it was present then the changes must have occur long before it did.

anyway, for Muslims this is bunch of confusing philisophy; the Qur'aan, the Sahih Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf and the later 'ulama is enough for us. Allah Ta'ala says that He created us and asked us to ponder on the creation and what He told us.

I guess the others can enjoy this, lol!

my response in red

OK. Just a quick thing, evolution has nothing to do with creation or giving rise to life. Its just how things changed once life began. Once again we are dealing with philosophical questions so there is no evidence and noone knows the true answers.

ok,

Alright, I'm going to try present a possible scenario with and unconscious cause. This is just my thoughts given your parameters.

Before the universe there was unconscious "alpha". Yes, could be anything
The basic nature of "alpha" was fluctuating? Not necessarily; depending on the option the discussion can be lengthy
Then in a certain moment in these fluctuations "alpha" released energy. if alpha was fluctuating then it would have been releasing energy from eternity not at some moment in time because there was nothing to limit it
The energy turned into matter (E=mc^2) and gave rise to the universe et al.

That would account for an non-conscous start to the universe and take care of the timing question.

Thanks, this is fun.

So it was in an unsteady state since infinity? That in itself is a contradiction.

sorry, i'm bit slow so didn't pick this one up; bro can you explain how is this contradiction.

[Hamayun]

Trumble,

I do not expect to comprehend the answers you will give me but I will ask anyway...

If the "alpha" contained no matter or energy then where did matter and energy come from? How do you explain the energy of the stars and the matter scattered all over the universe?

If matter and energy were a result of "Alpha" exploding then did it contain the matter? Or did it create matter and energy from nothing?

[Hamayun]

sorry, i'm bit slow so didn't pick this one up; bro can you explain how is this contradiction.

I am no good with words so will probably fail at explaining myself :(

What I meant was...

If something is infinite then it is in a constant state.

Does that make sense?

[Gator]

Gator, could you change your "tag" to agnostic, its confusing as imaginary hell.

hey Barney, I'm an atheist as I don't believe that there's a god.

I'm an agnostic as that I don't believe anyone can know the truth. I was using the term agnostic in its epistemological sense.

Thanks.

[brotherinfaith]

your ignorance is not a fact when you say you think no one can know the truth you are just trying to justify your doubts and fears and if the truth is not clear for you it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
everything is a choice and when you say there is no truth you are claiming tha it's the truth and what you have reached as a conclusion but things are very simple your denial of the existance of god is a personal choice and we will know one day who is right and who is wrong but it will be too late then

[Trumble]

Trumble,


If the "alpha" contained no matter or energy then where did matter and energy come from? How do you explain the energy of the stars and the matter scattered all over the universe?

If matter and energy were a result of "Alpha" exploding then did it contain the matter? Or did it create matter and energy from nothing?

From nothing. :)

The problem here is in appreciating what alpha (in Gator's sense) is; it is not the sort of thing than can 'explode', but is a wave function; a mathematical entity, not a physical one. What the wave function defines is the probability distribution that determines what state a physical system, in this case 'the universe' (or potential universe), will be in. I don't really want to get too caught up in that as, frankly, my math and physics is nowhere near good enough.

At a more general level though, away from Hawking-Land, the answer to your question is really covered by a better understanding of what the Big Bang theory actually is. According to that theory at the very beginning the universe popped into existence in the form of a 'singularity' (something infinitely small, infinitily dense and infinitely hot).. we simply don't know as yet exactly what they are, and how they/it could occur - so assign that to God as you wish!

The point here, though, is that at the singularity (and indeed for an infinitesimal time after it), the 'laws of physics' as we know them simply did not exist. According to the math that defines the theory your question simply has no meaning, as it makes no sense to talk of 'matter, or 'energy', or even 'space' and 'time' prior to the Big Bang. The matter and energy ultimately came from the singularity, as the universe expanded, but did not and could not exist prior to that; let alone 'cause' it.

I know you have problems with the idea that something can be 'caused' without matter and/or energy, but that idea is integral to the whole Big Bang theory, or at least insofar as it wasn't really 'caused' by anything at all.

That's the best I can do, I'm afraid... the math and physics you will need to research yourself.

[Hamayun]

OK then I won't ask where that singularity came from... lol

[Gator]

your ignorance is not a fact when you say you think no one can know the truth you are just trying to justify your doubts and fears and if the truth is not clear for you it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
everything is a choice and when you say there is no truth you are claiming tha it's the truth and what you have reached as a conclusion but things are very simple your denial of the existance of god is a personal choice and we will know one day who is right and who is wrong but it will be too late then

Hi there. I'm not denying TRUTH exists. I'm just saying no one can know it with certainty.

I'm not justifying my doubts and fears, I'm just looking at the world and coming to the reasonable conclusion that the TRUTH is not self evident.

Just a quick question. If I go to hell just for the fact that I don't believe, do you, in your heart, consider that justice that I spend eternity in hell?

Thanks!

[Hamayun]

quick question. If I go to hell just for the fact that I don't believe, do you, in your heart, consider that justice that I spend eternity in hell?

Thanks!

In one word? Yes!




lol only kidding. Don't get mad :D

Who am I to say what is justice and what isn't? In the grand scheme of things I am just like spec of dust. only Allah knows.

[Gator]

In one word? Yes!
lol only kidding. Don't get mad :D
Who am I to say what is justice and what isn't? In the grand scheme of things I am just like spec of dust. only Allah knows.

Ha! no worries I won't get mad.

I'm just asking your opinion and what you feel about that question in your heart. you're a person with an opinion and I'd like to hear it. You don't have to give it if you don't want to.

Do you feel it is justice?

Do you feel its not justice, but since its a foundation of your faith you have override what your heart says and accept it as Allah's will?

Don't worry I get all sorts of answers (and evasions) to this question.

Thanks.

[Hamayun]

In my honest opinion I think if I was to reject the existence of Allah. After everything I know and feel about Islam? Then yes. I really do deserve to burn in Hell.

Especially when every breath I take is a favour from him that I owe him for. He has given me everything and more than I could have ever needed. He gave me life. It would take eternity to count his favours upon me.

So if I am ungrateful and blind towards all his wonders and blessings around me? Then yes. I deserve to go to hell.

Hope that answers your question :)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Gator,

Just a quick question. If I go to hell just for the fact that I don't believe, do you, in your heart, consider that justice that I spend eternity in hell?

No, I don’t believe that would be justice.

Some Christians say that Muslims will not achieve salvation; some Muslims say that Christians will not achieve salvation. It seems we are all prone to making judgements as to how God will judge us. BUT, who can honestly say how God will judge each and every one of us?

Yet in our scripture it says you will be judged in the way you judge others, and that has to be were we find hope, we need to pray for each other despite all our differences.

I am not sure how we juggle about in our own minds that Christians Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs have different Gods. One thing is for sure it will be the same God judging all of us. There is one and the same God who hears all our prayers, this should make us all brothers and sisters together despite all our differences.

Just try and imagine what it must be like for God, how must he feel when he looks down and sees the way we treat each other. If we could be kind and merciful to people who are different from us; we might understand how God can be kind and merciful to all of us?

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric

[brotherinfaith]

yes it will be justice if you spend all you eternity in hell because it will be your decision. and chrostians and muslims have the same god but believers and disbelievers are never equal and one will be judged for their deeds not how you judge others if you do good you will find good and if you do bad don't blame anyone.
if you live your life for yourself then you will have nothing in the other life and disbelief is the worst of sins and the one which god never forgives.also there is no other way to god than the way the prophet uhammad prayeers of god upon him showed us and it was a message for all humans and it's the way of all prophets david moses abraham noah and jesus.
just look at the world and you will know what disbelief means and why it's the worst of all sins.and yes we are told to be merciful to all people but not to make them believe they are right and god has always been merciful and kind to us when he created us and gave us all what we need and sent us his prophets to teach us the right ways and show us the way to god.
god doesn't need us but we do need god and if you think of that you will know that god didn't create us to punish us or throw us in hell but we do disobey and when we disobey we spread bad and we cause harm and if you can imagine the suffering of hungry people and homeles and those who can't find water to drink while other waste food and money you will understand why disbelief is the worst of sins and the one which god never forgives

[Trumble]

Just try and imagine what it must be like for God, how must he feel when he looks down and sees the way we treat each other.

Responsible.

[جوري]

[QUOTE=root;1031538]I exist, all around me are mere images of my own created reality. "Probably"

QUOTE]

lol.. indeed your own created reality can sometimes come and bite you in the A** on a public forum ;D

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Trumble

Responsible.

I am sure God must feel responsible for his creation, we pray to God our Father and it must be so distressing for God to see how we treat each other. God has the chance to put all things right in a greater good life after death, when we will know for certain about God.

We cannot blame God for everything; we also have some responsibility towards each other. God has given us commandments to love our neighbour as ourselves and to even love our enemy. If we obeyed the greatest commandments there would be no reason to have conflict in this world.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God

Eric

[brotherinfaith]

god has always felt responsable for us that's why he sent us his prophets to show us the right way and protect us against our desires and weaknesses and god is not a human to be distressed and we can't blame god for nothing because we want to disobey and we want to live our life away from god.
we are told to love and forgive everybody to love people of faith for their faith and love others by having mercy of them and care for them and to show them the right way by teaching as well as good exapmle unfortunately most muslims don't do that and have made humany very confused about what is true but god guides those he want and if we pray to god sincerely he will never decieve us.
god is always loving and merciful but we refuse his guidance and we follow our desires and we expect god to forgive us and put us at the same level of people of faith which is unjust.also there is a very big mistake which needs to be cleared and that is we think of god as a big human and that is very wrong and that will never help us to know god.

may guide us to his straight way and teach us what is good for us ameen

[Pygoscelis]

It never ceases to amaze me how many believers when I tell them I don't believe in God, ask me "THen what created the universe", as if my not knowing proves God-did-it. Why can't these people simply admit the honest truth as I do. They don't know. Its like they need an answer, regardless of whether its true or false.

[barney]

It never ceases to amaze me how many believers when I tell them I don't believe in God, ask me "THen what created the universe", as if my not knowing proves God-did-it. Why can't these people simply admit the honest truth as I do. They don't know. Its like they need an answer, regardless of whether its true or false.

You really need to change that Tag to Agnostic dude.:thankyou:

[Tornado]

You really need to change that Tag to Agnostic dude.:thankyou:

He said he doesn't believe in a god.
If you don't know if a god exists or not, then obviously you can't believe either way. That means, you both don't believe in a god and you don't believe in no gods. I'm also an athiest for that reason, atheist because I'm agnostic.
Not sure if that made sense though.

All the best.

[barney]

He said he doesn't believe in a god.
If you don't know if a god exists or not, then obviously you can't believe either way. That means, you both don't believe in a god and you don't believe in no gods. I'm also an athiest for that reason, atheist because I'm agnostic.
Not sure if that made sense though.

All the best.

Mkay. I would argue that if you know that theres no god by some amazing discovery, lets say the secret of the universe is suddenly discovered by you...then Gratz! Your the worlds first Atheist.
Otherwise there are simply agnostics , (and agnostics who think they know called atheists and theists)!

[Tornado]

If atheist meant knowing there's no god. I guess it depends how you define atheism. If you are agnostic, you obviously aren't believing either way. That can make you an atheist if atheism is just not believing.
It should be
Athiest - believe there are no gods
_______- don't believe either way (<------ I'd be here)
Agnostic - who isn't agnostic, of course there's no evidence either way

belief in no gods =/= don't believe in a god

This terminology is a waste of time hah, can't believe i started it.
It should simply be: religous or not religious

[barney]

If atheist meant knowing there's no god. I guess it depends how you define atheism. If you are agnostic, you obviously aren't believing either way. That can make you an atheist if atheism is just not believing.
It should be
Athiest - believe there are no gods
_______- don't believe either way (<------ I'd be here)
Agnostic - who isn't agnostic, of course there's no evidence either way

belief in no gods =/= don't believe in a god

This terminology is a waste of time hah, can't believe i started it.
It should simply be: religous or not religious

I will have to have a word with Richard Dawkins about it to make a ruling on it. I'm seeing him tommorow down the chippy.

I'm an agnostic that dosnt beleive in any of the current or past Gods but dosnt discount the possibility that there is a God that started creation. It is evidently either unaware of us now /dead/on holiday or lost its powers.

[Tornado]

I will have to have a word with Richard Dawkins about it to make a ruling on it. I'm seeing him tommorow down the chippy.

Great :D

I'm an agnostic that dosnt beleive in any of the current or past Gods but dosnt discount the possibility that there is a God that started creation. It is evidently either unaware of us now /dead/on holiday or lost its powers.

Or maybe a god that just doesn't care? Maybe we're all part of an experiment :uuh: If there was a god, it'd be pretty bored after living an eternity or so. I'll call myself an agnostic atheist !

[barney]

Great :D



Or maybe a god that just doesn't care? Maybe we're all part of an experiment :uuh: If there was a god, it'd be pretty bored after living an eternity or so. I'll call myself an agnostic atheist !

Or Malevonent?

I really liked the scene at the end of Men In Black 1, where the scene pans out into space through the universe and eventually comes out showing the universe as a marble in a bag of marbles in a game played by two impossibly huge creatures. I know its nuts but I liked it.:rollseyes

[AntiKarateKid]

Great :D



Or maybe a god that just doesn't care? Maybe we're all part of an experiment :uuh: If there was a god, it'd be pretty bored after living an eternity or so. I'll call myself an agnostic atheist !

Noone can imagine the gifts of paradise.

You desire for "oblivion" is interesting.

There is no experiment good friend, at your current place in life, you just have to struggle a bit more than others to find God.

But the silver lining is that no soul is burdened beyond what it can bear. Perhaps you will find your inner spirituality and conquer your doubts and become a better believer than me. God cares, but you have admitted that you don't.

[AntiKarateKid]

I will have to have a word with Richard Dawkins about it to make a ruling on it. I'm seeing him tommorow down the chippy.

I'm an agnostic that dosnt beleive in any of the current or past Gods but dosnt discount the possibility that there is a God that started creation. It is evidently either unaware of us now /dead/on holiday or lost its powers.

Reading your posts over the last few months, I vaguely remember you mentioning that you had fought in a war of some sort. Is it fair to say that this is what makes you question God? The existence of the horrors of war?

Your posts have often come across and humorously cynical. Sometimes you were impressed with Islam as in the case of the "google earth" miracle thread.

Your road might be harder than others but as I told tornado, no soul is burdened beyond what it can bear. Just step up to the plate and find the truth instead of dismissing it in comedic ways.

You both have hundreds of posts in an Islamic website. Could you ever tell God that he did not give you the opportunity to learn about him? To read the Quran and to witness the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh?

Sure you laugh at the "lack" of evidence behind Moses' crossing of the Red Sea, or poke fun at Isa in the various gospels and their differing accounts. But. You have complete access and knowlege to the Prophet of Islam and the last Prophet to Mankind.

Is it a coincidence that every iota of this religion, right down to the very words of the Prophet is available oto you to read? And an unchanged book that noone could challenge in 1400 years?


Evil has been done in the name of every single ideology in existence. But could anyone ever claim to have done as much good and ispired so many lives as the Great Prophets of God? Moses,Jesus, Muhammad? Is it so hard to say that you KNOW there is God?