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Re.TiReD
10-21-2008, 01:40 PM
Is it Permissible to Talk to ones Fiancée over the Telephone?



Answered by



the Muhadith, the ‘Allaama, Shaykh of Hadeeth


Muhammad Nasr ud-Deen al-Albaani



Translated by


Abbas Abu Yahya



This is a translation of the transcript of a question that was asked to Shaykh al-Albaani - may Allaah have mercy upon him.

Shaykh: Yes

Questioner: Assalamu alaykum

Shaykh: wa Alaykum Assalamu wa Rahmatullaahi wa Baraktuhu

Questioner: If you don't mind is the noble Shaykh al-Albaani there?

Shaykh: He's with you.

Questioner: Good, if you would allow me O Shaykh I have some questions to ask.

Shaykh: Go ahead.

Questioner: Is it permissible to talk to my fiancée over the phone?

Shaykh: have you contracted the marriage yet or not?

Questioner: not yet.

Shaykh: It's not permissible.

Questioner: Not permissible??

Shaykh: Not allowed.

Questioner: Even if it's for advice?

Shaykh: it's not permissible.

Questioner: ok is it permissible for me to visit her and sit with her if the Mahram is present?

Shaykh: with a Mahram being present and she comes in front of you wearing a Jilbaab in Hijab, like when she goes out, then it's allowed, otherwise no.

Questioner: is it possible for her to uncover her face?

Shaykh: it's possible, if it's only the face.

Questioner: only the face?

Shaykh: She shouldn't wear a beautified dress and a short dress etc.

Questioner: ok regarding sitting with her, what is permissible for me to talk to her about?

Shaykh: Do not talk to her except with what you would talk to with other than her.

Questioner: Ok if she asks me for a picture of me, is it ok to give it to her or not?

Shaykh: just like if you asked her for her picture.

Questioner: yes??

Shaykh: I said just like if you asked her for her picture.

Questioner: yeah.

Shaykh: Is it permissible?

Questioner: No.

Shaykh: and my answer is also no.

Questioner: your answer is no??

Shaykh: no, definitely no.

Questioner: about what??

Shaykh: About what! For the same thing what you said, that you cannot ask her for her picture.

Questioner: yeah.

Shaykh: understand?

Questioner: yeah, yes.

Shaykh: If you understand then stick to it.

Questioner: But O Shaykh sometimes a person is forced to phone her, is this permissible?

Shaykh: I don’t think there is a need, you want to marry her don’t you?

Questioner: For example, is it permissible to phone her for the possibility that I can visit her, at such and such time?

Shaykh: why do want to visit her?! What's the difference between her and any other woman?

Questioner: Do you mean it's not allowed to visit her?

Shaykh: O my brother, I say to you what's the difference between her and any other woman? Why do you want to visit her? You want to marry her; you marry her by requesting it from her guardian.

Questioner: If her guardian is present?

Shaykh: You want to marry her, you marry her by requesting her guardian, if there is an original agreement then you can visit her if the guardian is present, to see her and she sees you, as for visiting her then no!

Questioner: It's still not allowed to visit even after the engagement?

Shaykh: After the engagement?

Questioner: Yeah.

Shaykh: She remains to be a stranger to you O brother until you perform the marriage contract.

Questioner: Thank you, may Allaah reward you O Shaykh.

Shaykh: And you.

Questioner: May Allaah be generous to you.

Shaykh: May Allaah protect you… Sallamu alayk.

Questioner: Assalamu alaykum

Shaykh: Wa Alaykum Assalamu wa Rahmatullaahi wa Baraktuhu


Taken from: Silsilah Huda wa Noor, tape no. 269 at 10mins
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-21-2008, 02:05 PM
lol i found that funny mashaAllaah !
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truemuslim
10-21-2008, 02:08 PM
Lol why issit soundin like playa shiekh :p
nah im kiddin, jazakallah khair sis :p
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Musaafirah
10-21-2008, 02:17 PM
Lol! I've read this somewhere before. It's still funny though.
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maryam87
10-21-2008, 02:18 PM
i dont know a single person who is engaged that doesnt speak ova the phone. How else r u supposed to know the other person?
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-21-2008, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
i dont know a single person who is engaged that doesnt speak ova the phone. How else r u supposed to know the other person?
get married ;D
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maryam87
10-21-2008, 02:21 PM
then get divorced when they realised they dont suit each other
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Musaafirah
10-21-2008, 02:22 PM
Depends on what you mean by engaged as well sis.
I have relatives who have had their nikaah performed about 6 months before their departure from their house where they have their wedding 'party' but that was so they got to know each other before moving in and it's all halaal coz they've already maintained that they'll marry each other and have already done the preliminary checks and all....
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Ansariyah
10-21-2008, 02:22 PM
"My sheikh said its halal"

"My Sheikh told me its haram"

some stuff I hear.

jzk.
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maryam87
10-21-2008, 02:24 PM
oh ok i understand what u mean
Yeah but no-one unfortuanetly does it that way, it more like read the fatiha talk to each other if its all good after bout a couple of months get married
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Questfortruth
10-21-2008, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
then get divorced when they realised they dont suit each other
:sl:
My sister knew her husband before marriage. But they never seem to get along. My cousin met his wife many times before marriage and they ended up in a divorce. So it just depends on the person if (s)he wants to make it work or not.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-21-2008, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
then get divorced when they realised they dont suit each other
obviously u do a background check before marriage.


you make sure your both attracted


and then you get married


and statistics SHOW


.... you can be married 10 years thinkin u guys match n still end up in a divorce, u can THINK you match n still end up in a divorce after 2-3 months.


think more deeply, if you marry for the sake of Allaah, you can make it last n love each other
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maryam87
10-21-2008, 02:41 PM
i totally agree with u bro
its jst try changing the minds of people they will think ur weird
example my brother is getting engaged to this girl this saturday n they talk on the phone everyday apparently her parents are religious
thats why i initially thought it was ok noone seemed to be saying otherwise
i guess u learn something new everyday
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-22-2008, 11:08 AM
:sl:
jazakiallahu khair for the share :)
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Re.TiReD
10-22-2008, 11:12 AM
:wasalamex

BarakAllah feeki hun :D

And at everybody else, you're just making a big hoo-haa over nothing :)
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_Rida_
10-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
then get divorced when they realised they dont suit each other
yes maryam87 you are correct.i have seen many extreme cases like this.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-22-2008, 11:32 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by maryam87
its jst try changing the minds of people they will think ur weird
OR you could set an example :)

Originally Posted by Diya

yes maryam87 you are correct.i have seen many extreme cases like this.
thats why u pray istikhara :D
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Re.TiReD
10-22-2008, 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by Diya

yes maryam87 you are correct.i have seen many extreme cases like this.
True, but we shouldnt generalise. Many many people get married without having spoken without need or too frequently before marriage and they are now living happily ever after. Alhamdulillah.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-22-2008, 11:39 AM
:sl:
^ yeah people have been getting married this way for centuries...they're as happy as larry :p :D
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-22-2008, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
True, but we shouldnt generalise. Many many people get married without having spoken without need or too frequently before marriage and they are now living happily ever after. Alhamdulillah.
you know whats shocking bout that sis


ive seen couples who married this way and live in such a way that people "THINK" from observation that they arent happy. But the actuality is this couple care for each other and love each other from the bottom of their hearts. Obviously it isnt for display.


Even after all the troubles, worries fights and struggles they maintain the relationship, its just a new generation thing... dating/pre-marital business is the worst idea ever.
Arranged is in my opinion.. the only way to a successful marriage
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Re.TiReD
10-22-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Mz

Even after all the troubles, worries fights and struggles they maintain the relationship, its just a new generation thing... dating/pre-marital business is the worst idea ever.
Arranged is in my opinion.. the only way to a successful marriage
I dont know, maintaining the relationship when it comes to an arranged marriage, specially if its within the family... sometimes I cant help but think that they have to maintain the relationship because of pressure from family etc...(or they feel that they have to) specially in the families that are high on pride and honour :rollseyes

I'm not saying the love is fake, its just a flawed thought I used to have and sometimes still think.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-22-2008, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
I dont know, maintaining the relationship when it comes to an arranged marriage, specially if its within the family... sometimes I cant help but think that they have to maintain the relationship because of pressure from family etc...(or they feel that they have to) specially in the families that are high on pride and honour :rollseyes

I'm not saying the love is fake, its just a flawed thought I used to have and sometimes still think.
well whom i was talking about isnt cousins, isnt related. But they indeed DID have honour, and HONOUR is a beautiful thing! everyone should try to maintain honour, and have a clear idea of just what honour is. Struggling to keep a failing marriage is one of the greatest things i think people can do in this dunya. and to those who struggle in such a way, surely their marriage (If it ends up working) will be far better then those whos marriage started from pre-marital love

wallahu a'lam
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Re.TiReD
10-22-2008, 11:54 AM
Allahu A'lam.

By honour I meant the type of honour that is used in the term 'Honour-killings'.

And that is not a good type of honour believe you me :)

But yeh, JazakAllah khayr for your insights.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-22-2008, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Allahu A'lam.

By honour I meant the type of honour that is used in the term 'Honour-killings'.

And that is not a good type of honour believe you me :)

But yeh, JazakAllah khayr for your insights.
beautiful words are being slaughtered by stupid things like this seriously !


injustice ISNT honour therefore the very term "honour-killing" is an oxymoron IMHO because if your recognised as one who has slaughtered their own how can you be honoured amongst your community? maybe in the past yes



i think we've totally gone off on a tangent here :|

but... defiling a prospect by extreme intermingling is definitly gnna affect the marriage afterwards...
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Re.TiReD
10-22-2008, 12:04 PM
injustice ISNT honour therefore the very term "honour-killing" is an oxymoron IMHO because if your recognised as one who has slaughtered their own how can you be honoured amongst your community?
True true, but just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is honour in the eyes of the one who seeks it. Trying to keep summin going in the name of honour is summin to be aplauded though I guess


but... defiling a prospect by extreme intermingling is definitly gnna affect the marriage afterwards...
For the purpose of this thread, Yup I agree akhee :)
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-23-2008, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Mz
you know whats shocking bout that sis


ive seen couples who married this way and live in such a way that people "THINK" from observation that they arent happy. But the actuality is this couple care for each other and love each other from the bottom of their hearts. Obviously it isnt for display.


Even after all the troubles, worries fights and struggles they maintain the relationship, its just a new generation thing... dating/pre-marital business is the worst idea ever.
Arranged is in my opinion.. the only way to a successful marriage
:sl:

I agree with everything you said bro, except the last part. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that arranged marriages are 'a' way to successful marriage, not 'the' way? After all, there are halal methods to get married to someone without it being arranged.
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SixTen
10-23-2008, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:

I agree with everything you said bro, except the last part. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that arranged marriages are 'a' way to successful marriage, not 'the' way? After all, there are halal methods to get married to someone without it being arranged.
Would you share some methods? Jazakhallah Khair.
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Re.TiReD
10-23-2008, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Would you share some methods? Jazakhallah Khair.
:salamext:

Maybe you could define what you mean by an 'arranged marriage' first Akhee?

Abdullah came to know Amatullah through College/Uni, he liked what he saw and heard and rather than get into sin he got hold of her wali's number and contacted them and tried for her in the best way he could think of. It all worked out and they got married and lived happily.

Thats an alternative ^^ not sure if they'd all end happily, but then again...we dont know a lot of things do we. Wallahu A'lam

WassalamuAlaykum
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-23-2008, 10:07 AM
^ thats still arranged imho, you know what woulda made it love? if Abdullah just couldnt liev without her and HAD to marry her coz SHE is the one :p

but Abdullah knew if the parents never agreed its a no-no, therefore arranged.

imho i wudda approached parents before HER wali, its just common courtesy !
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Re.TiReD
10-23-2008, 10:34 AM
Well obviously few would go against the wishes of their parents. I disagree at the 'what would have made it love' part though. Even pursuading his parents would have meant that she was worth it...

But anyway, I'm going off on one

WassalamuAlaykum
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-23-2008, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Would you share some methods? Jazakhallah Khair.
:sl:

Sure.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He does some research, likes what he finds and gets her wali's contact and goes and proposes.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He becomes good friends with the brother of Sr. Y. He lets him know that he likes his sister, and it goes to the parents and they get married.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He proposes to her (lets her know of his intentions) directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette) and asks for the contacts of her wali, which she gives to him. He contacts the wali and they're married later. If she doesn't, then that means she isn't interested in the proposal.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.")

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She thinks he might like her too. She goes to her dad to let him know, they contact the brother and a few months later they're married.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She knows the brother's sister and gets information about him through her. She likes it, and once she knows she has a chance of marrying the brother, she goes to her wali. They get married later.

As you can probably tell, I'm very much against the desi style of arranged marriages, (at least for the brothers/sisters who've grown up here, I'm sure it works well back home) where the only thing the two see of each other are like 4 or 5 pics, then once more when they meet the family and she brings the chai, where the compatibility is judged by level of education and how they'll look with each other, and what do you know, they're married like a few months later. I personally could never go through that. I'd have to know that I like the sister, that I'm compatible with the sister in the major areas such as deen, understanding of each other's roles, family, children, etc.

Originally Posted by Mz
^ thats still arranged imho, you know what woulda made it love? if Abdullah just couldnt liev without her and HAD to marry her coz SHE is the one :p

but Abdullah knew if the parents never agreed its a no-no, therefore arranged.

imho i wudda approached parents before HER wali, its just common courtesy !
It can still be love if Abdullah was seriously in love and couldn't get to be with her. Likewise, it can still be love if he goes to the wali. I'd go so far as to say that it is genuine feelings for the sister that would make the brother go straight to the parents, I mean after all, the father is the wali.

Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Well obviously few would go against the wishes of their parents. I disagree at the 'what would have made it love' part though. Even pursuading his parents would have meant that she was worth it...

But anyway, I'm going off on one

WassalamuAlaykum
I agree :thumbs_up
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chacha_jalebi
10-23-2008, 04:57 PM
lol bless sheikh al albani :D

anddd halaal methods lol

let me tell you a truer then true story :embarrass

there was mr x and he knew ms z from back in days, when they both start becomin propa practicin muslimists, they obviously lost contact, so then one day in a sunny day,the sun at its peak and its blazin rays, settin the air on fire :p lol and in such a environment they suddenly met, had a hi hello, and then just didnt talk for the rest of the journey, again this happened a few times and one time they just began start talkin generally hello hi, what you upto nowadays laaa dee daa, and then pops the question are you married, lookin? mr x says "why u askin u interested, im gay" (true story remembaa:p) andd ms z says "yes i am, and if you are here is my house number" mr z was rather shocked, and after buildin up the courage arranged a meetin with her parents and also bought along his parents, and after a few hoo haa daas from ms z father, because he was a bit of a backward, caste believin chap, mr x and ms z are gettin married :D

and another story

mr abc, was strollin around and ms 123, who had recently converted didnt know any masjid or any muslims, and she recognised mr abc from school, and went up to him and asked him, about mosques and muslims in the area, mr abc gave his mothers number, who was a teacher in the mosque, and then after a while mr abc said to his mother, i want to marry ms 123, ask her for me, and now they are happily married with 2 kids, one of whom is bit of a spastick :D

but the moral is halaal ways are possible, its about bein confident and just hangin in there tbh :D
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 09:18 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.")
she'd have to be oooone brave sis to do that :phew:exhausted...
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 09:48 AM
:salamext:

Yup sis ^ but didnt you hear of the hadeeth where a female companion did just that? And she was commended for it? :)
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 09:52 AM
:sl:
lol no i havnt, pls share...like directly to the guy :?
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:
lol no i havnt, pls share...like directly to the guy :?
:wasalamex

Yeah, she offered herself in marriage...I'll try doing a search for it because I cant remember it exactly atm.

WassalamuAlaykum
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 10:03 AM
:sl:
oh cool, jazakillahu khair :)...wait, was it the lady who offered herself to the Prophet, sallahu aleyhi wa sallam ?
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:
oh cool, jazakillahu khair :)...wait, was it the lady who offered herself to the Prophet, sallahu aleyhi wa sallam ?
:wasalamex

BarakAllah Feeki, yeh! I think it was that one! Do you have the hadeeth? I found one but its not the exact one I first came across:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 48:

Narrated Hisham's father: Khaula bint Hakim was one of those ladies who presented themselves to the Prophet for marriage. 'Aisha said, "Doesn't a lady feel ashamed for presenting herself to a man?" But when the Verse: "(O Muhammad) You may postpone (the turn of) any of them (your wives) that you please,' (33.51) was revealed, " 'Aisha said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you.' " (Bukhari)

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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 10:25 AM
:sl:
^nah i thought it was that...but i just remembered it was this :D

Imam Ahmad recorded from Sahl bin Sa`d As-Sa`idi that a woman came to the Messenger of Allah and said, "O Messenger of Allah, verily, I offer myself to you (for marriage).'' She stood there for a long time, then a man stood up and said, "O Messenger of Allah, marry her to me if you do not want to marry her.''
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=41951
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 10:27 AM
No I found the actual one that I was originally referring to :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 53:

Narrated Thabit Al-Banani: I was with Anas while his daughter was present with him. Anas said, "A woman came to Allah's Apostle and presented herself to him, saying, 'O Allah's Apostle, have you any need for me (i.e. would you like to marry me)?' "Thereupon Anas's daughter said, "What a shameless lady she was ! Shame! Shame!" Anas said, "She was better than you; she had a liking for the Prophet so she presented herself for marriage to him." (Bukhari)
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 10:34 AM
:sl:
jazakiallahu khair...
subhanallah! i wudda thought (islamically) that if a sis had an interest in a bro she wouldve had to do it indirectly

there you go, you learn something new :D
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 10:36 AM
:wasalamex

BarakAllah feeki. Tbh, before reading that hadeeth I thought it to be the ultimate lack of Haya to present yourself to a bro. Wallahu A'lam
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:

Sure.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He does some research, likes what he finds and gets her wali's contact and goes and proposes.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He becomes good friends with the brother of Sr. Y. He lets him know that he likes his sister, and it goes to the parents and they get married.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He proposes to her (lets her know of his intentions) directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette) and asks for the contacts of her wali, which she gives to him. He contacts the wali and they're married later. If she doesn't, then that means she isn't interested in the proposal.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.")

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She thinks he might like her too. She goes to her dad to let him know, they contact the brother and a few months later they're married.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She knows the brother's sister and gets information about him through her. She likes it, and once she knows she has a chance of marrying the brother, she goes to her wali. They get married later.
How would you know you liked her, unless you go to know her through non-halal means? (e.g., talked/met in school and so fourth). I mean, as a stranger, she should not make talk or discussion with you, and be fully covered - how would a brother end up liking her in such a way?

What I mean is I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't deem that completely halal - in that it requires you to get to know the sister (to like her), but that means usually in a non-halal way - Even though the next steps may be halal (contacting wali etc).

It can still be love if Abdullah was seriously in love and couldn't get to be with her. Likewise, it can still be love if he goes to the wali. I'd go so far as to say that it is genuine feelings for the sister that would make the brother go straight to the parents, I mean after all, the father is the wali.
Some scholars have stated, their is no love outside wedlock - and its just lust. How would you reply?
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:03 AM
At Br.SiXten's final comment:

Some scholars have stated, their is no love outside wedlock - and its just lust. How would you reply?
I think there's a reason the Prophet (saw) said that when two people love one another they should marry

“There is nothing better for two who love one another than marriage.” Recorded by Ibn Majah.

That will be the meaning understood from it, but a better translation is: "There is nothing for two who love one another like marriage."

And, yes, the meaning is: "nothing better."

In Faidh al-Qadeer (the notes on Jami` as-Sagheer) al-Munaawi said:

“‘It is when a man looks at an ajnabiyah [unrelated woman] and his heart has desire of intercourse, then marrying her will result in increased love.’ This was mentioned by at-Teebi. And more correct than him is the saying of some of the elders that the meaning is that it is the greatest remedy to treat the passion of desire for marital relations. For it is a remedy which there is no equal for by any means. And this is the meaning which is indicated by Allah, Glorious is He, after making women lawful; the free of them, and the slaves of them due to need, by His saying:

(Allah wants to lighten [the burden] for you, and man was created weak.) (An-Nisa’ 4:28)

http://talk.islamicnetwork.com/showthread.php?t=2610
Wallahu A'lam
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:06 AM
How would 2 people, love eachother, through halal means? I mean, consider the etiquettes of men and women, strangers.

Also, the 2nd example you gave, showed a man to have lust for a woman (desired intercourse), which goes with what I had stated. Also, you can argue, in the 2nd scenario, the woman should not have attracted a man who is a stranger.
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
How would 2 people, love eachother, through halal means? I mean, consider the etiquettes of men and women, strangers.

Also, the 2nd example you gave, showed a man to have lust for a woman (desired intercourse), which goes with what I had stated.
Wallahu A'lam. Because I will truthfully say that I dont know.

But yeah, with a non-mahram I'd say that if love was substituted by 'Genuine feelings', liking what you have seen and heard about a person, their character and their dealings with others...Its possible for one's heart to be inclined towards a person in such instances. And the result can most often be marriage but in a halal way.... i.e. going through parents etc
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:12 AM
Also, you can argue, in the 2nd scenario, the woman should not have attracted a man who is a stranger.
Hmm, so you'd blame a sis for having such a beautiful character and displaying perfect akhlaaq and showing Ikhlaas whilst acquiring 'Ilm....

You'd blame her if you felt as though you wanted to marry her?
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 11:13 AM
:sl:
Also, you can argue, in the 2nd scenario, the woman should not have attracted a man who is a stranger.
the accidental look, perhaps...i mean thats how he would be attracted to her, unintentionally.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Wallahu A'lam. Because I will truthfully say that I dont know.

But yeah, with a non-mahram I'd say that if love was substituted by 'Genuine feelings', liking what you have seen and heard about a person, their character and their dealings with others...Its possible for one's heart to be inclined towards a person in such instances. And the result can most often be marriage but in a halal way.... i.e. going through parents etc
I don't know If I am completely convinced, of another route other than arranged being the only halal. Some try to use the Prophet (saw) examples, but he was a Prophet, and he did dealings differently then we are allowed to on many things - he was on a prophetic mission in the end of the day.

I know of people, who "loved" eachother and got married - but they only "loved" eachother, because of having had an illegal relationship (this could merely be that they meeted, talked, maybe the girl wasn't full covered, the modesty laws were not fully addressed - I mean a guy and a girl, who are strangers, just joking around, having "fun", would be considered an illegal relationship).

One would say, just hearing about someone, would be sort of arranged still - as you did not initiate it.

So, really it was more of a reply to some of the examples I was given by the brother.

the accidental look, perhaps...i mean thats how he would be attracted to her, unintentionally.
I know these things happen, but, you and I know, that isn't the "halal" way, that is, a man not lowering his gaze - or a woman not being covered enough as to not attrat men.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Hmm, so you'd blame a sis for having such a beautiful character and displaying perfect akhlaaq and showing Ikhlaas whilst acquiring 'Ilm....

You'd blame her if you felt as though you wanted to marry her?
As I stated, outside of arranged - one can argue, situation should not arise, where a man, was able to know a stranger, to the extent he wanted sexual relations with them.
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maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:



Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.") :thumbs_up

He he funny one I would wonder what they guy would think if a girl proposed to him these days LOL
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:21 AM
By what you're saying I think it all boils down to how you translate the word 'arranged'....I recall the brother saying he would not be able to go through with a marriage where you bearly know the person, they're from 'back home' etc etc

Obviously if you have wali in the picture from the start then you may argue that it's arranged.... if it comes down to the interpretation of words then its possible for any of the bro's examples to be halal and 'arranged' with the help of the wali.

It is possible to like somebody without having engaged in haram talk or haram glances....
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
As I stated, outside of arranged - one can argue, situation should not arise, where a man, was able to know a stranger, to the extent he wanted sexual relations with them.
One can argue it, but one may not always be able to prevent it. Guarantee me that a bro is able to remain in a segregated setting throughout his student/uni and worklife and then maybe I'd be able to see where you're coming from.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
One can argue it, but one may not always be able to prevent it. Guarantee me that a bro is able to remain in a segregated setting throughout his student/uni and worklife and then maybe I'd be able to see where you're coming from.
You see, this is irrelevant. My arguement wasn't these things don't happen, I am fully aware of what happens. My arguement was, show me a non-arranged situation, where it was totally halal. Obviously, someone who was not in a completely segreated situation, who ended up marrying someone by liking them due to some glances or talks - would not be totally halal.

The whole discussion was not, "Do people always prevent haram relationships", rather, "Give me another system, other than the arranged, which is 100% halal" which no one has yet to provide me with.

Jazakhallah Khair.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:26 AM
[QUOTE=JolieFleur;1034446]By what you're saying I think it all boils down to how you translate the word 'arranged'....I recall the brother saying he would not be able to go through with a marriage where you bearly know the person, they're from 'back home' etc etc

Obviously if you have wali in the picture from the start then you may argue that it's arranged.... if it comes down to the interpretation of words then its possible for any of the bro's examples to be halal and 'arranged' with the help of the wali.

It is possible to like somebody without having engaged in haram talk or haram glances....[/QUOTE]

How can you like someone, you know nothing about (aka the halal way to strangers). Hence, the arranged being, you find wali's/parents who have sons/daughters who wish to get married, or people who are advertising to get married - and do the arranged halal thing.

I don't agree that, one day, you suddenly like an individual, without knowing him at all - which means, be it either the halal way (wali etc, who can tell you about him/her, give pictures etc) or by haram means (engage in talks/discussion with strange women - strange meaning strangers here)
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maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:30 AM
your making it sound like its haram to speak to the opposite sex ?
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
your making it sound like its haram to speak to the opposite sex ?
It is, you can't just go around talking to boys/girls who are strangers, unless of dire need or if they are with mahrams.
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:37 AM
OK...I see what you want to hear now.

But are you telling me it's haram for somebody to get in touch with my parents after having seen my sis at college and sat in the same lectures as her without having spoken to her...? I think not, I'd commend that person for going straight to the wali rather than engaging in chit-chat and the like.

You're saying that an arranged marriage is the only halal way, then are you teling me the rest are absolutely haram? And to me an arranged marriage is one initiated by the parents/wali...although the dude may have expressed an interest but referred it straight to the parents after that....How is that haram?

If you think him actually being in a situation where he saw the sis is haram then fine, I'd agree and say that the only 100% halal marriage is one where the parents bring the propsal to you.

I don't agree that, one day, you suddenly like an individual, without knowing him at all - which means, be it either the halal way (wali etc, who can tell you about him/her, give pictures etc) or by haram means (engage in talks/discussion with strange women - strange meaning strangers here)
See I think you can, nobody expects for it to be love at first sight but to feel as though this person could potentially be good for you...Is not something strange IMO
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maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
It is, you can't just go around talking to boys/girls who are strangers, unless of dire need or if they are with mahrams.
ok i dont go to uni with a mahram with me, so if i need to communicate for a group project or something do i speak in sign language??
confused
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
OK...I see what you want to hear now.

But are you telling me it's haram for somebody to get in touch with my parents after having seen my sis at college and sat in the same lectures as her without having spoken to her...? I think not, I'd commend that person for going straight to the wali rather than engaging in chit-chat and the like.
You see, in this situation, their has been some haram done already, that is, the freemixing in college.

You're saying that an arranged marriage is the only halal way, then are you teling me the rest are absolutely haram? And to me an arranged marriage is one initiated by the parents/wali...although the dude may have expressed an interest but referred it straight to the parents after that....How is that haram?
Like I said, I have never heard of another system which is 100% halal, maybe they are 90%, 80%, 50%, but never 100%.

If you think him actually being in a situation where he saw the sis is haram then fine, I'd agree and say that the only 100% halal marriage is one where the parents bring the propsal to you.
So we agree.

See I think you can, nobody expects for it to be love at first sight but to feel as though this person could potentially be good for you...Is not something strange IMO
It is, since you won't know if they are potentially good for you, as in a 100% halal situation, you won't know ANYTHING about them.
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
ok i dont go to uni with a mahram with me, so if i need to communicate for a group project or something do i speak in sign language??
confused
:salamext:

Just want to mention firstly, that although I may not fully agree with SiXten, I dont advocate talking to non-mahrams excessively or without reason.

If you need to communicate and can do so without causing fitnah or having to work completely alone with a bro then I dont see why you cant talk to him.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
ok i dont go to uni with a mahram with me, so if i need to communicate for a group project or something do i speak in sign language??
confused
I go to uni too, and as their is freemixing, it is indeed "haram", theirs no use me playing innocent, that the schools/college/uni system, in England, is not segregated and hence has no haram in it.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-24-2008, 11:41 AM
Edit
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:44 AM
If I lived like a total recluse, and could prevent being in contact at all with bro's (and by contact I mean just seeing them around), I'd have no choice but to agree with you fully and to go down the path you're talking about.

But since I cant control the people who see me, since I cant block the ears of the ones who might hear me, and who like what they hear...then I cant see how I'd be committing a sin by accepting such a proposal.

And at free-mixing at uni/college. The individuals dont have to have 'free-mixed' for things to get as far as a proposal
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maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
I go to uni too, and as their is freemixing, it is indeed "haram", theirs no use me playing innocent, that the schools/college/uni system, in England, is not segregated and hence has no haram in it.
Is having male friends haram? i mean i thought the prophet (pbuh) had female companions???
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
If I lived like a total recluse, and could prevent being in contact at all with bro's (and by contact I mean just seeing them around), I'd have no choice but to agree with you fully and to go down the path you're talking about.

But since I cant control the people who see me, since I cant block the ears of the ones who might hear me, and who like what they hear...then I cant see how I'd be committing a sin by accepting such a proposal.
You have just basically said - due to the unislamic situation that you live in, marriages happen which have some haram in it, which is what I have been saying all along.

No one has yet given me, a 100% halal way of marriage other than arranged.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
Is having male friends haram? i mean i thought the prophet (pbuh) had female companions???
Prophet (saw), was a Prophet, he also had more than 4 wives.
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Re.TiReD
10-24-2008, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
You have just basically said - due to the unislamic situation that you live in, marriages happen which have some haram in it, which is what I have been saying all along.

No one has yet given me, a 100% halal way of marriage other than arranged.
Hmm, you're branding something haram that doesnt have to be haram. Not really.

A quick question, I know it was a completely different way of life and set of circumstances etc, but just for my personal knowledge, how did marriages come to be in the Prophets time?
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maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:49 AM
can you provide me with evidence its haram to have a male friend if the relationship is totally halal as it totally uni work related
im not arguing jst want to know
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Hmm, you're branding something haram that doesnt have to be haram. Not really.

A quick question, I know it was a completely different way of life and set of circumstances etc, but just for my personal knowledge, how did marriages come to be in the Prophets time?
I have branded things haram, as according to Qur'an and sunnah, not personal opinion, but what scholars have stated.

As for the Prophet (saw) time, I do not know the details. It should be noted, they lived in a time of war, so things were probably far different to now. One should not excuse, what has been laid down by law to them, by finding a counterexample, which may not apply to them.
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
can you provide me with evidence its haram to have a male friend if the relationship is totally halal as it totally uni work related
im not arguing jst want to know
You can do some searches yourself, to find rulings on free mixing in Islam, they will give you scholarly guidance. Sister, in Islam, their would be no schools which isn't segregated - just for your information. The reason you are in your current situation, is not because it is halal, but because you live in an unislamic society. The fact, that Islam demands schools to be segregated, should be enough evidence for you to know its not halal to free mix, even over work.
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maryam87
10-24-2008, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by SixTen
You can do some searches yourself, to find rulings on free mixing in Islam, they will give you scholarly guidance. Sister, in Islam, their would be no schools which isn't segregated - just for your information. The reason you are in your current situation, is not because it is halal, but because you live in an unislamic society. The fact, that Islam demands schools to be segregated, should be enough evidence for you to know its not halal to free mix, even over work.
Does that mean we are going to punished for it on the day of judgement??
If Allah (swt) doesnt forgive us we r all going to hell
May Allah (swt) forgive us all
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SixTen
10-24-2008, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by maryam87
Does that mean we are going to punished for it on the day of judgement??
If Allah (swt) doesnt forgive us we r all going to hell
May Allah (swt) forgive us all
I won't answer this, because I am not a scholar. You can ask a scholar, what you must do - or if you are excused - for freemixing in schools. Either way, it is not halal, but again, seek scholarly advice. You may be given advice, as to how to be in such a situation, such as, avoid talking to the opposite sex unless neccessary, and so fourth.

It is possible we are excused because we live in an unislamic country, but don't take my word for it.
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S_87
10-24-2008, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He does some research, likes what he finds and gets her wali's contact and goes and proposes.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He becomes good friends with the brother of Sr. Y. He lets him know that he likes his sister, and it goes to the parents and they get married.

Br. X likes Sr. Y. He proposes to her (lets her know of his intentions) directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette) and asks for the contacts of her wali, which she gives to him. He contacts the wali and they're married later. If she doesn't, then that means she isn't interested in the proposal.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She proposes to him directly (while observing proper Islamic etiquette). (I.e. "I am interested in marrying you, here are the contacts to my wali if you're interested.")

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She thinks he might like her too. She goes to her dad to let him know, they contact the brother and a few months later they're married.

Sr. Y likes Br. X. She knows the brother's sister and gets information about him through her. She likes it, and once she knows she has a chance of marrying the brother, she goes to her wali. They get married later.
what about the part where they both want to get married but the girls parents wont agree. now that is a big problem.


Is having male friends haram? i mean i thought the prophet (pbuh) had female companions???
companions as in followers. not 'friends' as we consider friends today.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-24-2008, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:

she'd have to be oooone brave sis to do that :phew:exhausted...
:w:

Yeah. I remember hearing in a lecture that there was this student at Madinah Uni or Umm al-Qura, one of them and basically he was in class, just got finished and was leaving. This sister comes up to him, all niqaab and everything and basically tells him that she's interested in marrying him, and is giving him the contacts for her wali. Now this poor brother, having a sister propose to him for the very first time, is scared out of his wits. Guess what he does? :D He turns around, doesn't say a word to the sister and runs away! Poor soul. lol.

Originally Posted by JolieFleur
:wasalamex

BarakAllah feeki. Tbh, before reading that hadeeth I thought it to be the ultimate lack of Haya to present yourself to a bro. Wallahu A'lam
:wasalamex

This is the thing ukthi. Sometimes we confuse our understanding of 'hayaa' and modesty with what our culture defines for us, meaning that what we think is hayaa is actually from our culture and not from the religion. Our religion isn't black and white, there are shades of gray and there are things that are allowed whilst the Islamic ettiquete are properly observed. Directly proposing is one of them - it is completely permissible for a man to directly propose to a woman and vice versa. Sure, culture might play a role, but that doesn't neccasarily mean that it is haraam. Shaykh Anwar once said in one of his lectures - he said that the Prophetic generation was more liberal than the conservatives of today, and more conservative than the liberals of today. Meaning, there was balance in their lives, in all aspects, including gender relations.

Originally Posted by SixTen
How would you know you liked her, unless you go to know her through non-halal means? (e.g., talked/met in school and so fourth). I mean, as a stranger, she should not make talk or discussion with you, and be fully covered - how would a brother end up liking her in such a way?
:sl:

I think that if you believe that talking in school when it is needed such as MSA, class etc, is haraam and that this point can actually be observed, then you're living in ideals. Because by the same exact token, talking online such as this forum ought fall into haraam as well. If you believe that interaction between males and females is completely haraam, then I think that if you were to pick up Ibn Qayyims' Rawdatul Muhibeen or Ibn Hazm's Tawq al-Hamamah, you'd be very shocked.

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...onversing.html

Secondly, how an individual likes another person varies from person to person. Some people start liking a person only when they hear a description, some at first sight, and some after knowing the person for a long time. It's the heart, and the liking someone isn't controlled by an individual. If you've experienced it, then I believe you'd understand my point.

What I mean is I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't deem that completely halal - in that it requires you to get to know the sister (to like her), but that means usually in a non-halal way - Even though the next steps may be halal (contacting wali etc).
You're assuming that to like someone, you need to know them very well which can only be done through long conversations etc. But that's an incorrect premise, because liking someone can come just from seeing or noticing a quality they have. Also, when a person is serious about marrying someone, they're allowed to observe that person from far in order to see how they interact. There's a hadeeth in Abu Dawud where the companion, Jabir b. Abdullah says: "I asked a girl in marriage, I used to look at her secretly, until I looked at what induced me to marry her. I, therefore, married her." Notice: 1) He asked the girl to marry her. 2) He used to look at her secretly, 3) Not just a glance, but until he saw what he liked within her. Ofcourse, this was after he proposed to her, but nevertheless, with changes in circumstances, things that are normally impermissible can become permissible as exceptions.

So my point is basically, there are different things that are allowed at different times in accordance with each scenario, that's why it isn't balanced and quite impractical to take a brush and paint everything with the same color.

Some scholars have stated, their is no love outside wedlock - and its just lust. How would you reply?
I'd say that these scholars haven't experienced it because there have been other scholars that have, and that therefore they are basing their opinion upon what has reached them.

After all, it is known that love can exist before marriage, acknowledged by the Messenger sallalahu alayhi wa sallam himself when he said (in a hadeeth collected by Ibn Maajah):
"Ibn Abaas (radi Allahu anhu) reported that a man came to the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) and said, 'We have an orphan girl under our custody. A poor man and a rich man have both courted her. She prefers the poor man, but we prefer the rich man. (What should we do?)" The Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wassalam) responded, "For those who love each other, nothing has proven as good as marriage."
The Prophet sallalahu alayhi wa sallam didn't condemn the orphan girl for loving someone before her marriage. Therefore, we can conclude that it isn't something haraam.

Another incident was at the time of Umar ra. I believe this was mentioned by Ibn Hazm as well, but I don't remember at the moment. This man said to him: "O Ameer ul mu’mineen…I’m in love with her". Umar r.a. replied: “It’s not in your hands, what can I do for you?”

Originally Posted by SixTen
How would 2 people, love eachother, through halal means? I mean, consider the etiquettes of men and women, strangers.
Believe me bro, it can and does happen. Each person is different, and some types of people cannot fall in love easily. Some can. Everyone's different.

Also, the 2nd example you gave, showed a man to have lust for a woman (desired intercourse), which goes with what I had stated.
Isn't one of the reasons a woman is married for, beauty, as per the hadeeth? Isn't intercourse one of the intentions in marriage? Really, if someone were to suggest that it wasn't, I'd say they're expecting men to be like the Malaikah.

Originally Posted by SixTen
I don't know If I am completely convinced, of another route other than arranged being the only halal. Some try to use the Prophet (saw) examples, but he was a Prophet, and he did dealings differently then we are allowed to on many things - he was on a prophetic mission in the end of the day.
You would have to bring proof though that the incidents we're discussing were specific to him only and no one else. Marrying more than 4 women is only for him salalahu alayhi wa sallam, there is proof for that. But for the other things such as a women directly proposing to a man?

I know of people, who "loved" eachother and got married - but they only "loved" eachother, because of having had an illegal relationship (this could merely be that they meeted, talked, maybe the girl wasn't full covered, the modesty laws were not fully addressed - I mean a guy and a girl, who are strangers, just joking around, having "fun", would be considered an illegal relationship).
Then akhi, I'd have to say you havent seen much. I've seen brothers and sisters who genuinly loved each other without ever coming close to haraam, and they're married and happy, Alhamdullilah.

I know these things happen, but, you and I know, that isn't the "halal" way, that is, a man not lowering his gaze - or a woman not being covered enough as to not attrat men.
You're right, the eye is what starts it all off. But it is reality that when you're on a campus setting there will be more interaction such as talking in class, MSAs, etc. And like I said before, sometimes it might not be beauty that attracts, it could be a quality, or the way the person carries them self etc.

Originally Posted by maryam87
He he funny one I would wonder what they guy would think if a girl proposed to him these days LOL
:sl:

It depends on the brother. Some brothers might not like it, others might not care, and others might actually like it. I personally wouldn't mind if a sister directly proposed to me. I'd consider it seriously.

Check out this poll where this same question was put to a number of brothers:

http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=19511

Originally Posted by amani
what about the part where they both want to get married but the girls parents wont agree. now that is a big problem.
:sl:

Ofcourse, but that's a different story. I made sure in the scenarios I gave the parents were involved and the scenario worked out via mutual family approval. If the girl's parents don't agree...it depends on her..can she slowly work on them to get them to approve or not?
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SixTen
10-25-2008, 09:08 AM
Brother, you still didn't give an example. To notice qualities and so fourth - would require some kind of free mixing interaction.

You have any anecdotes to share? Because I am sure, due to a westernised setting, or an unislamic settings, scenarios which would not exist in the perfect Islamic society would have been the causes in my utmost opinion.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-25-2008, 09:10 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:w:

Yeah. I remember hearing in a lecture that there was this student at Madinah Uni or Umm al-Qura, one of them and basically he was in class, just got finished and was leaving. This sister comes up to him, all niqaab and everything and basically tells him that she's interested in marrying him, and is giving him the contacts for her wali. Now this poor brother, having a sister propose to him for the very first time, is scared out of his wits. Guess what he does? :D He turns around, doesn't say a word to the sister and runs away! Poor soul. lol.
ummm....no comment :hiding: @the guy i mean...
i mean if he didnt agree, he could have said that he was going to think about it, but really send someone to tell her, instead of doing that :muddlehea



This is the thing ukthi. Sometimes we confuse our understanding of 'hayaa' and modesty with what our culture defines for us, meaning that what we think is hayaa is actually from our culture and not from the religion. Our religion isn't black and white, there are shades of gray and there are things that are allowed whilst the Islamic ettiquete are properly observed. Directly proposing is one of them - it is completely permissible for a man to directly propose to a woman and vice versa.
too true... in some cultures, if a girl proposes to the guy, shes seen as cheap and desperate, :rollseyes this is indirectly as well (i.e through family, etc). id hate to see what they'd think of her if she did it directly. poor thing :offended: she would be the talk of the town:rollseyes


but i would personally advice sisters to do it through family, etc not because of a hayaa thing, but he may react as above...OR at the very least, get a vague idea through a mutual friend or something of what he would think of a direct proposal...i mean background info is always good, so that you know what your in for. :thumbs_up

and even that its permissible, not every one thinks/acts like the sahabis
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crayon
10-25-2008, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Brother, you still didn't give an example. To notice qualities and so fourth - would require some kind of free mixing interaction.

You have any anecdotes to share? Because I am sure, due to a westernised setting, or an unislamic settings, scenarios which would not exist in the perfect Islamic society would have been the causes in my utmost opinion.
"Liking" someone does not necessarily have to mean "liking" someone in the way I think you're understanding it. The way I understand it is seeing/hearing about someones characteristics, liking them (the characteristics), and then deciding whether or not you would be compatible with someone with those characteristics.

For example, I have a friend who has 2 older brothers, and she talks about them a lot. I've only ever seen them perhaps twice in my 4 years of knowing her, and it was a mere "salam" that was spoken. BUT I feel like I already know them from all she has said. She talks about me to her family quite a bit as well, so they probably know me too. So if either party was interested, there could have been "like", through 100% halal means.
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S_87
10-25-2008, 01:16 PM
Yeah. I remember hearing in a lecture that there was this student at Madinah Uni or Umm al-Qura, one of them and basically he was in class, just got finished and was leaving. This sister comes up to him, all niqaab and everything and basically tells him that she's interested in marrying him, and is giving him the contacts for her wali. Now this poor brother, having a sister propose to him for the very first time, is scared out of his wits. Guess what he does? He turns around, doesn't say a word to the sister and runs away! Poor soul. lol.
wowwwwwwww SubhanAllah, poor sister and brother!
i think it would be a cool thing to do :exhausted

SixTen there are different degrees of love and love isnt just of one type. the love for parents/friends/that special person its all different types of love and love can grow and can just be on the surface. It depends, but there can be love before marriage.
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brotherinfaith
10-25-2008, 02:03 PM
i don't think it's a safe think to do sister and that may be opening doors to satan and no one is stronger than fitna the prophet sala lahu alaihi wa sallam said ''man ittaka shobohat fakad istabraa li dinih wa man wakaa fi shobuhat wakaraa fi al haaram ''

may god clear our basira and lead us to what he loves ammen
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Re.TiReD
10-25-2008, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad



:wasalamex

This is the thing ukthi. Sometimes we confuse our understanding of 'hayaa' and modesty with what our culture defines for us, meaning that what we think is hayaa is actually from our culture and not from the religion. Our religion isn't black and white, there are shades of gray and there are things that are allowed whilst the Islamic ettiquete are properly observed. Directly proposing is one of them - it is completely permissible for a man to directly propose to a woman and vice versa. Sure, culture might play a role, but that doesn't neccasarily mean that it is haraam. Shaykh Anwar once said in one of his lectures - he said that the Prophetic generation was more liberal than the conservatives of today, and more conservative than the liberals of today. Meaning, there was balance in their lives, in all aspects, including gender relations.
:salamext: Akhee

JazakAllah khayr, I meant thats the way I felt before coming across that hadeeth. I totally understand now.

Anyway, dont you guys think you're going off-topic? If you wanna find halal ways of finding a partner I think you should make a new thread for it :)

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-25-2008, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Brother, you still didn't give an example. To notice qualities and so fourth - would require some kind of free mixing interaction.
No bro, not necessarily. I gave you the example of Jabir r.a. when he proposed. That was done in an Islamic environment.

You have any anecdotes to share? Because I am sure, due to a westernised setting, or an unislamic settings, scenarios which would not exist in the perfect Islamic society would have been the causes in my utmost opinion.
Plus I think we're on different pages here when we're using the word 'like'. What a person likes and is attracted to is relative and can easily happen without interaction. Sometimes it can be through hearing about the person, it can be a glance, it can be normal talk without crossing the boundaries.

Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:

but i would personally advice sisters to do it through family, etc not because of a hayaa thing, but he may react as above...OR at the very least, get a vague idea through a mutual friend or something of what he would think of a direct proposal...i mean background info is always good, so that you know what your in for. :thumbs_up

and even that its permissible, not every one thinks/acts like the sahabis
I'd advise them to do as per their cultural norms because of the disastrous results it can have otherwise, like you said, she'd be 'the talk of the town' - and in desi culture, I can attest that yeah, that would definetly be the case.
Reply

Re.TiReD
10-25-2008, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

Plus I think we're on different pages here when we're using the word 'like'. What a person likes and is attracted to is relative and can easily happen without interaction. Sometimes it can be through hearing about the person, it can be a glance, it can be normal talk without crossing the boundaries.

That's what I've been trying to get across before aswell :thumbs_up

JazakAllah khayr
Reply

barney
10-25-2008, 06:08 PM
Isnt it the case that if you were talking over the phone you might find something attractive about the other persons voice? Not their speech content , but their actual voice?
Reply

Re.TiReD
10-25-2008, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Isnt it the case that if you were talking over the phone you might find something attractive about the other persons voice? Not their speech content , but their actual voice?
Yup

Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)

33:32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the [other] women, provided that you remain [truly] conscious of God. Hence, be not over-soft in your speech, lest any whose heart is diseased should be moved to desire [you]: but, withal, speak in a kindly way.
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barney
10-25-2008, 06:21 PM
So in summary the tone of voice should hence be very matter of fact, blunt and not give any intonation that may cause attraction.
The Call must be neccessery and unavoidable.(which I cant think of a situation where that would be the case, you could always get your family to call and pass on the message)
The subject matter must not be trivial or flirtatious.
Reply

Re.TiReD
10-25-2008, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by barney
So in summary the tone of voice should hence be very matter of fact, blunt and not give any intonation that may cause attraction.
The Call must be neccessery and unavoidable.(which I cant think of a situation where that would be the case, you could always get your family to call and pass on the message)
The subject matter must not be trivial or flirtatious.
Got it in one :thumbs_up
Reply

Danah
10-26-2008, 04:58 PM
okay I did not check all the replies but here is my opinion on the issue

actually I am not a fan of talking to the fiancee or fiance before marriage, simply because, the majority of them are not acting as they are in the reality. everyone is trying to be looks good, they always show their good side and trying to be kind to the other.
many couples discovered after the marriage the true personality of their mates
for me I dont think that I will let that happen in the future

but above all of this, those two are not married yet so they there is no point from doing so
Reply

SixTen
10-26-2008, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by SAYA
okay I did not check all the replies but here is my opinion on the issue

actually I am not a fan of talking to the fiancee or fiance before marriage, simply because, the majority of them are not acting as they are in the reality. everyone is trying to be looks good, they always show their good side and trying to be kind to the other.
many couples discovered after the marriage the true personality of their mates
for me I dont think that I will let that happen in the future

but above all of this, those two are not married yet so they there is no point from doing so
Actually, this is one of the scarier things of arranged marriage. How does one really know that person, in such short period of time? It is too easy to think your in love, when your in lust and just get married and after maybe a week or month or so - you get tired of eachother, find out your not really compatible - but with divorce being very looked down upon, you may end up sticking up with it for the rest of your life :-\

And as you stated, it is commonly known that - people rarely act themselves - around potential wife/husband, heck most start acting strange just meeting people who they find attractive.
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Re.TiReD
10-26-2008, 07:38 PM
^ Agreed.

To be fair, I think it's like that with any sort of marriage. When you're looking to please somebody, to impress them...people most often than not we put on an act, a facade...I guess it's best to do some background research into the person and ask the people who know the individual well.
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
^ Agreed.

To be fair, I think it's like that with any sort of marriage. When you're looking to please somebody, to impress them...people most often than not we put on an act, a facade...I guess it's best to do some background research into the person and ask the people who know the individual well.
It could be the lesser of 2 evils. I mean, if it was allowed that everyone can have temporary relationships to see if they are compatible (aka Mut'ah), all the problems that you see, due to zina, would be rampant.

I guess, the idea is, that everyone should be bought up mannered, patient and so fourth. As long as the couple are attracted, maybe they can get along fine in life.

Not like any couple won't have problems, or get tired of eachother now and then eh?

Allah knows best.
Reply

barney
10-26-2008, 07:45 PM
Hmm. I went out with and lived with Mrs Barney for 4 years before marriage. I dont think I got to really know her for about 16 years.
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Danah
10-26-2008, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Actually, this is one of the scarier things of arranged marriage. How does one really know that person, in such short period of time? It is too easy to think your in love, when your in lust and just get married and after maybe a week or month or so - you get tired of eachother, find out your not really compatible - but with divorce being very looked down upon, you may end up sticking up with it for the rest of your life :-\

And as you stated, it is commonly known that - people rarely act themselves - around potential wife/husband, heck most start acting strange just meeting people who they find attractive.
yeah...soo right
its just a temporary period of time while every one try to be the best in front of the other...........no one will show his/her true responsibility to the other,

thats why many married people miss their engagement days.
I heard many people after marriage said that they find their partners changed a lot after the nikah...but the fact is that they did not change at all, but their true personalities were appeared
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Re.TiReD
10-26-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
It could be the lesser of 2 evils. I mean, if it was allowed that everyone can have temporary relationships to see if they are compatible (aka Mut'ah), all the problems that you see, due to zina, would be rampant.

I guess, the idea is, that everyone should be bought up mannered, patient and so fourth. As long as the couple are attracted, maybe they can get along fine in life.

Not like any couple won't have problems, or get tired of eachother now and then eh?

Allah knows best.
Hmm, I'm not sure why you mentioned the lesser of the two evils part but yeah...you're right in a way. BUT even if attraction is sky-high...the attitude and character of a life-partner needs to be compatible also in my opinion.

Anyway I think this threads is past it's sell-by date. May Allah (swt) grant you and us all pious spouses. Ameen.
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Re.TiReD
10-26-2008, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Hmm. I went out with and lived with Mrs Barney for 4 years before marriage. I dont think I got to really know her for about 16 years.
Lol. I think thats just the changing nature of man that's all. We change throughout our lives. It's possible you knew her before marriage but knew her in a different way after 16 years.
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Hmm, I'm not sure why you mentioned the lesser of the two evils part but yeah...you're right in a way. BUT even if attraction is sky-high...the attitude and character of a life-partner needs to be compatible also in my opinion.

Anyway I think this threads is past it's sell-by date. May Allah (swt) grant you and us all pious spouses. Ameen.
I meant that, the potential problems you can have through not knowing a partner enough - may not be as bad - as the problems that are caused with dating and non-committed relationships etc.
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Danah
10-26-2008, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
^ Agreed.

To be fair, I think it's like that with any sort of marriage. When you're looking to please somebody, to impress them...people most often than not we put on an act, a facade...I guess it's best to do some background research into the person and ask the people who know the individual well.
I dont think that doing some background research will help a lot...there is nothing accurate as living with the person in the same place to know their personalities.
and yeah....every one want to bless the other on that period. but becuase everyone is overdo it, it just make the other part to think like wow I will live with that person for the rest of my life?
it just let them have high expectations of how their life will be with the partner, which will crumble all that at the end
Reply

chances
11-03-2008, 03:26 PM
Jazak Allah for that sis
Reply

Hamida.gp
04-16-2013, 05:23 AM
This had me chuckling.
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