Christian woman murdered in Afghanistan

[Thinker]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...hjZJQD93UCPN00

This woman gave up a life of peace and comfort to help disabled people in Afghanistan. She was murdered because she was Christian by people who believe (I presume) that they are acting in the interests if Islam and that Allah will rewarded them for their actions.

Would you agree with me that if I say that Allah will in fact punish them as murderers of this woman?

Would you agree with me if I said that any Muslim who (in their heart) supports such killings will similarly be punished?

[Hamayun]

There is no question. You shouldn't even have to ask this after being here so long.

Her murder equates to killing all of humankind. Murderers should be and will be punished.

According to the Quran killing of an innocent person (Muslim or non-Muslim) is the same as killing all of humanity.

[doorster]

I don't think that he wants to know that (you should have read some of his deleted posts in order to really understand him)

anyway he would have posted this in world affairs forum, had he not been in a rush to prove something

[Güven]

this is disgusting , killing an innocent and especcialy someone who was helping the people and then say Allah(swt) will reward me?

And YOU are asking that to us ??

:w:

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Hamayun]

I am still a bit surprised that he put that question across like that as if we would agree with the murder of an innocent person. Especially a noble woman who was helping our people.

Thinker did you put any thought into that post of yours Bro? Do you really think Muslims are some kind of Barbarians? You should know better than that Bro...

[kwolney01]

I agree, in Islam we are taught to tolerate other peoples beliefs and religions. Just because someone may not be Muslim does not mean they deserve to be murdered.
I don't even think you can call these type of people Muslims, a real Muslim who practices Islam knows what is right and what is wrong.

Allah knows best and he is the ultimate judge. Any atoms weight of good or bad will be judged on the day of judgment.


Allahu Alum (Allah knows best)

I wish you the best

[nocturnal]

It was a reprehensible and sickening act. Taking the life of someone who devotes her time to humanitarian causes and to improve the lives of others, it's abominable.

This is explicitly forbidden in Islam. The prophet (pbuh) treated prisoners of war in the most humane manner and decreed that they must not be aggressed against. Yet, we have rabid heretics here who purport to further Islamic values and causes carrying out such acts. Rank hypocrisy this is.

[doorster]

Yet, we have rabid heretics here who purport to further Islamic values and causes carrying out such acts. Rank hypocrisy this is.

more ignorance than hypocrisy, I'll send you PM to explain my meaning

[nocturnal]

:enough!:

more ignorance than hypocrisy, I'll send you PM to explain my meaning

I can see why you believe it is ignorance not hypocrisy, but i cannot agree with that.

Ignorance, with respect to this tragic incident, could be applied to these callous fanatics if they were not aware of the Quran'ic verdicts on such matters. For a group of "Islamic" militants that claims it's grievance is against the "political system", and not anyone else, to murder a humanitarian worker and actually have the effrontery to justify it by invoking the Qur'an and Hadith in a perverted manner is indeed hypocrisy. Not ignorance.

Ignorance, i would say is more to do with suicide bombers, even though they too kill people indiscriminately, but not individually in the manner in which this one was carried out.

[doorster]

:enough!:

I can see why you believe it is ignorance not hypocrisy, but i cannot agree with that.

Ignorance, with respect to this tragic incident, could be applied to these callous fanatics if they were not aware of the Quran'ic verdicts on such matters. For a group of "Islamic" militants that claims it's grievance is against the "political system", and not anyone else, to murder a humanitarian worker and actually have the effrontery to justify it by invoking the Qur'an and Hadith in a perverted manner is indeed hypocrisy. Not ignorance.

Ignorance, i would say is more to do with suicide bombers, even though they too kill people indiscriminately, but not individually in the manner in which this one was carried out.

there is something about you that frightens me now (but cant quite put my finger on it yet)

[Thinker]

Why did I post this question – you question my motives (again)? Please stop presuming that I am trying to do some mischief; I am just trying to understand how you guys think.

I posted it for two reasons;

First; because it was such a shameful act I had hoped that it would have been posted here by a Muslim member saying just that, when it wasn’t I wondered whether all the members here knew of it and if they didn’t I believed they should know. (For those who think it would be unbelievable that some would not know of the incident I can tell you that my wife wouldn’t know of it as she refuses to watch news programmes saying it depresses her).

Second; as I have consistently said, I am here to learn and understand and I am still trying to understand how Muslims reconcile certain beliefs and actions. I believe that a good percentage of members of this forum are of Pakistani descent. I have formed a view that the difference between the Taliban and the north western tribes in Pakistan is minimal and that their extreme interpretation of and implementation of a Muslim way of life is moderated only gradually as you move towards the urban areas of Pakistan. So I wondered if there were some Pakistani Muslim amongst members here who could clarify how their kinsmen reconcile Islamic teachings with their actions. And, yes, I although I expect all of you here would condemn the killing I wondered if any of you might suggest that because there was a suggestion (denied) that the woman was promoting Christianity this might have been somehow mitigated the actions of the killers.

Of course most of you here would feel more closely affiliated to Martians than the Taliban but there some things that I just can’t reconcile. For example there was a question posted here some time back asking whether or what was forbidden in painting an image of a human being. I expressed my shock at (what to me) seemed bizarre. Later I remembered world outrage when the Taliban had blown up some national historical treasures of images carved in rock in Afghanistan. To me (a simple outsider) both beliefs / actions are ‘extreme;’ I can’t draw much of a difference between the reasoning on both those things.

Finally, during the period when the UK was fighting the IRA (or vice versa), the IRA was supported and comforted not just by those gave to them or spoke for them but by the thousands of ordinary people who just said nothing. It would have me feel better about Muslims on this forum if one of you had taken the initiative to register your distance with those who perpetrated this act and those that teach them that Allah will reward their actions.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

...So I wondered if there were some Pakistani Muslim amongst members here who could clarify how their kinsmen reconcile Islamic teachings with their actions. And, yes, I although I expect all of you here would condemn the killing I wondered if any of you might suggest that because there was a suggestion (denied) that the woman was promoting Christianity this might have been somehow mitigated the actions of the killers.

As a pakistani muslim, I am ashamed of this horrific act. It is not supported on any grounds in the Quran, Hadith or sunnah. Murdering of civilians is a very serious sin under Islam as shown in Sura 5, verse 32:

''Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing''

[ZPE]

There is no question. You shouldn't even have to ask this after being here so long.

Her murder equates to killing all of humankind. Murderers should be and will be punished.

According to the Quran killing of an innocent person (Muslim or non-Muslim) is the same as killing all of humanity.

Yes innocent maybe but the killer(s) might have done it as they thought she was a missionary. I don't know enough so I won't comment further.

[Hamayun]

Yes innocent maybe but the killer(s) might have done it as they thought she was a missionary. I don't know enough so I won't comment further.

Still doesn't give anyone the right to kill her. She didn't kill or rape anyone.

It is a digusting crime and completely against the examples of our Prophet (Peace be upon him).

[Muezzin]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...hjZJQD93UCPN00

This woman gave up a life of peace and comfort to help disabled people in Afghanistan. She was murdered because she was Christian by people who believe (I presume) that they are acting in the interests if Islam and that Allah will rewarded them for their actions.

Taking that course of action makes them murderers in my eyes.

Would you agree with me that if I say that Allah will in fact punish them as murderers of this woman?

Yes.

Would you agree with me if I said that any Muslim who (in their heart) supports such killings will similarly be punished?

Yes.

[barney]

I wonder if the Taliban sit about planning this stuff.
"Hmm, What can we do thats really evil today?"
"Bomb a market?"
"Nahh thats old hat, everyones totally used to it..."
"Stone a woman with her wrists exposed"
"Nope not evil enough...I'm getting bored with that, and despite the fact this is afganistan, we are running out of stones"
"Kill some infidels by beheading them and stick the vid up on Youtube?"
"Yawn...Well ...Sigh...I suppose so...but we need a twist"
"What about this one...she works with orphans and the disabled"
"Hmm...OK then, but I want Ideas people...Ideas...We need to start thinking outside the box, Tommorows atrocity better have something special, like lava spitting sharks torturing kittens or you lot are all fired"

[Woodrow]

I wonder if the Taliban sit about planning this stuff.
"Hmm, What can we do thats really evil today?"
"Bomb a market?"
"Nahh thats old hat, everyones totally used to it..."
"Stone a woman with her wrists exposed"
"Nope not evil enough...I'm getting bored with that, and despite the fact this is afganistan, we are running out of stones"
"Kill some infidels by beheading them and stick the vid up on Youtube?"
"Yawn...Well ...Sigh...I suppose so...but we need a twist"
"What about this one...she works with orphans and the disabled"
"Hmm...OK then, but I want Ideas people...Ideas...We need to start thinking outside the box, Tommorows atrocity better have something special, like lava spitting sharks torturing kittens or you lot are all fired"

I am assuming you are posting in terms of exaggerated sarcasm an your actual message is the Taliban has neither the time or resources to deliberately plan such act.

I too doubt this was planned by any organized group and was the act of individuals acting alone.

I agree with Bro Doorster, that it was an act born of ignorance and the perpetrators probably do believe they were doing the right thing. This is not typical Pakistani or typical of any people. It is the result of angry people acting without knowledge. That does not excuse their guilt as each person has a responsibility to learn the truth and should never follow any alleged human leader blindly.

[barney]

I am assuming you are posting in terms of exaggerated sarcasm an your actual message is the Taliban has neither the time or resources to deliberately plan such act.

I too doubt this was planned by any organized group and was the act of individuals acting alone.

I agree with Bro Doorster, that it was an act born of ignorance and the perpetrators probably do believe they were doing the right thing. This is not typical Pakistani or typical of any people. It is the result of angry people acting without knowledge. That does not excuse their guilt as each person has a responsibility to learn the truth and should never follow any alleged human leader blindly.

The Taliban have admitted responsibility for it Woody, They are proud of what they have done. Organisation wise they are roughly 40000 strong with millions and millions of quids of aid coming from all over the muslim world and the very best in Organised terror working for them. To say they cant organise a simple drive by shooting in a country stuffed with guns against an unarmed target is a bit naive me old mate.

[Al-Zaara]

I wonder if the Taliban sit about planning this stuff.
"Hmm, What can we do thats really evil today?"
"Bomb a market?"
"Nahh thats old hat, everyones totally used to it..."
"Stone a woman with her wrists exposed"
"Nope not evil enough...I'm getting bored with that, and despite the fact this is afganistan, we are running out of stones"
"Kill some infidels by beheading them and stick the vid up on Youtube?"
"Yawn...Well ...Sigh...I suppose so...but we need a twist"
"What about this one...she works with orphans and the disabled"
"Hmm...OK then, but I want Ideas people...Ideas...We need to start thinking outside the box, Tommorows atrocity better have something special, like lava spitting sharks torturing kittens or you lot are all fired"

Ooooh, that conversation could so be the supporters of Mao, or wait, Stalin, no wait.. Hitler... Nah, too big ones, why not the Ku Klux Klan! Too big still. Hmmm... It could be anyone, just change some of the info about the place of the happening and occupations/race/religion of the victim, isn't that nice? Such a sweet world we live in.

Oooh and 'cause it's an evil act, who whose evil aswell, wouldn't wanna take the glory? Nah, darn, the Talibans were too fast. No worries, next time someone else will shine.

[/deep sarcasm mixed with real thoughts, I hope you'll get it]

I feel very sorry for the lady and the ones who know her, but most sorry for the ignorants who did it. though, I can't help but remember:

“The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."

Why? 'Cause although I feel for the dead ones, I can't help but taste the irony.

[doorster]

The Taliban have admitted responsibility for it Woody, They are proud of what they have done. Organisation wise they are roughly 40000 strong with millions and millions of quids of aid coming from all over the muslim world and the very best in Organised terror working for them. To say they cant organise a simple drive by shooting in a country stuffed with guns against an unarmed target is a bit naive me old mate.

what a load of tosh! barney, you are getting ever so bold by the day!

I bet you had Saudi Arabia in mind re "the millions and millions" like you did say in harun yayah bashing thread.

but saudis would never hand out a penny without permissions from their parent country the UK.

the only source of incomes I can see for taliban are proceeds from general banditry (and ransoms from kidnapping victims)

The taliban are hidiously bad fighters. They are simply appauling. All they have is sheer rage and ignorance. They cant shoot, they cant fight for toffee. They take casulties at rates of 50:1. Their main victim is the innocent afgan civilian.

in one thread he says taliban were so crap that they could not fight for toffee, in another thread they are sophisticated planners with backing from all over the Muslim world

[Woodrow]

The Taliban have admitted responsibility for it Woody, They are proud of what they have done. Organisation wise they are roughly 40000 strong with millions and millions of quids of aid coming from all over the muslim world and the very best in Organised terror working for them. To say they cant organise a simple drive by shooting in a country stuffed with guns against an unarmed target is a bit naive me old mate.

I admit you are making a good point. I just have difficulty in accepting that any Muslim would deliberately commit such an act with planning and knowledge.

This horrible act violates nearly everything we believe in. It is as much an atrocity against Islam as it is against the woman.

[Keltoi]

Here is a little good news as far as abductions go...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/...erican_hostage

[barney]

)

in one thread he says taliban were so crap that they could not fight for toffee, in another thread they are sophisticated planners with backing from all over the Muslim world

Murdering isnt fighting.Thats why the actual battle casulties are so asymmetrical.


As for money, Millions are needed, not billions. Just enough to keep them in bread and bullets.

@ woody, Yup I imagine that its hard. It wouldnt be that easy to beleive that a british soldier would deliberatly shoot an innocent, yet i imagine that it will have happened more than once in the last 7 years.

[doorster]

Murdering isnt fighting.Thats why the actual battle casulties are so asymmetrical.


As for money, Millions are needed, not billions. Just enough to keep them in bread and bullets.

if you knew any thing about anything you would know that in all the lawless areas of NW. frontier and afghanistan, making of small arms and ammo making has been a cottage industry ever since I could remember. banditry and kidnaping raids (even deep inside Pakistan) has been their profession. that is the only way they have ever known even when my dad was a child in 1930s and 40s.

the sooner the numpties and liars in London and Washington admit that they've taken on gangs of thugs (only weaker than themselves) the better and that they actually NEED to be in Afghanistan for other reasons, instead of the pretence that some militant Islamic force is being fought.

[barney]

If your assuming that I think the Taliban are some sort of centrally controlled organised force with letterheaded paper and a formal command structure, then you are mistaken.

The Taliban used to have nominal control and indeed had a central core, but was and always will be a collection of warlords and militias loyal to tribe over anything other than faith.
The Talibans interpretation of Islam is why they act the way they do. Not their interpretation of Zen Bhuddism or their interpretation of the latest Bond Movie. They are killing Christians and attacking NGO's for "preaching their faith". Thats it , pure and simple.
Do they represent the muslim ummah? No , I dont think they do. Are they supported by this "no muslim can do something wrong, unless its against another muslim" attitude, then they probably are.

As an Agnostic, I find it very easy to acknowlage that Christian Serbs could commit the hidious crimes I saw in Kosovo. Except when I went there I was a CofE "Christian".
I simply assumed that they hadnt understood the "Message of christianity" (TM Copyright Augustine 334AD)

As per bullet factories, i think you'll find that the ancient art of blackpowder which the afgans were so fond of to fuel their Jezzailarchs, require a different setup to produce the 7.62X39mmSR's for their AKM's. They also receive modern plastique explosives and shaped charges, and relitively sophisticated IED's. Thei RPG warheads are iranian manaufacture, etc etc etc.
What are you saying then? The taliban dont exist and if they did they receive no support?

[doorster]

They also receive modern plastique explosives and shaped charges, and relitively sophisticated IED's. Thei RPG warheads are iranian manaufacture, etc etc etc.

forgot about Iran, you reminded of the time when America sent Pakistan some stingers to use against soviet gunships, the real taliban stole around a dozen or so and took them to Iran who promptly opened them up and created exact working copies, same thing Afghans and pathans of lawless areas were doing with half burnt vehicles by scavenging parts from many, they don't just make pistols and rifles but also light artillery pieces.

I've been out of Pakistan for more than 3 years now so cant exactly say what the bandits can or can not still make (then they were masters of replicating anything they could lay their hands on)

I don't know much about plastic explosives but would not put it past Iran or anyone else selling it to them. it is in Iran's interests to cause as much trouble for Pakistan as it possibly can. selling and buying and profit are the key words.

What are you saying then? The taliban dont exist

yes! Taliban were students (whose parent could not afford to keep them) in Pakistani madrasahs. they were originally like budhist monks in the sense that they were studying/praying then going out begging charity.

Then when Soviets took over, America did not like that, Pakistan did not care for it much either but could not afford to fight openly, america was not too keen on it either.

so the students were indoctrinated, were taught to hate soviets by teachers who were quickly trained by Saudis, madrasahs were given American money via Saudis, instead of going out begging they were taught to fire small arms.

They were sent to Afghanistan to make a lot of noise to distract Russians while Pakistani commandos and CIA got on with the real tasks like killing Soviets. and all the credit was duly given to students who were made to believe that they were actually being helped by supernatural forces

then soviets left, union broke up, taliban were invited to Washington to negotiate access rights for America to carry gas/ oil from former soviet countries. students' leaders wanted better terms believing that they were invincible and the rest is history

[seeker-of-light]

it is a shame that these people who call themselves muslims and yet are farthest from it continue to make the rest of us look bad to most of the world=x

[maryam87]

ok before everyone starts blaming those who killed her maybe u should do a search about christian missionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan
They basically believe that God has now gave them the opportunity to preach their religion. Now normally i wouldnt mind this they have a right to preach and so do we but when they go in war torn countries and work on the orphans but giving them false love and dreams on the same time have a hidden agenda to convert them thats extremely sad and low

Alot of militants have seen this happening therefore to them the missionaries have commited a crime worse than murder, they are killing their children by converting them to christians

Plz dont get me wrong im not saying it was correct for him to kill her but being a muslim i understand his anger. This happened even during the Bosnian war, a friend was telling me they took and feed the orphans and raised them as christians and made em forget their true identity, arent they killing the kids that way?

[The_Prince]

every one would be FOOLING themselves if they think that she nor her Christian group were not preaching on these little children. they tell them God loves you, he came for you, died for you etc etc they do these things to these ppl until they brainwash and manipulate them.

you see these missionaries are deceptive, when they say were not preaching they are trying to be technical, yes were not preaching and saying accept Jesus etc etc but they are trying to convert the ppl in other deceptive ways such as saying God died for you, he loves you bla bla bla that to them is not preaching.

also dont forget that Paul gave missionaries the way on how to convert:

1 Corinthians chapter 9 verses 19-22:



19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

as you can see deception is the key to gain the people. :) so lets not kid ourselves and say oh these ppl arent trying to convert the people.

[Keltoi]

I wondered how long it would take for the justifications for murder to appear...

[roohani.doctor]

there are NO justifications for murder, one man's or one group's or even one nation's acts dont define islam, they never have and they never will....

[Thinker]

I was asked about my motives for posting this question and gave them including the line . . . And, yes, I although I expect all of you here would condemn the killing I wondered if any of you might suggest that because there was a suggestion (denied) that the woman was promoting Christianity this might have been somehow mitigated the actions of the killers.

The question is: if the woman was promoting Christianity does that mitigate the actions of the killers?

Two members have posted messages (above) have answered that question one who said . . . . to them (the killers) the missionaries have committed a crime worse than murder, they are killing their children by converting them to Christians thus inferring that their actions in killing the woman might be justified.

If that is the case i.e. it is justifiable for someone to be murdered or punished in any way for attempting to convert a Muslim to Christianity would it be justifiable for someone to kill a Muslim attempting to convert a Christian?

What does the Qur’an / hadith say on the subject; does Islam teach that it’s 'OK for the goose but not for the gander’?

[doorster]

I was asked about my motives for posting this question and gave them including the line . . . And, yes, I although I expect all of you here would condemn the killing I wondered if any of you might suggest that because there was a suggestion (denied) that the woman was promoting Christianity this might have been somehow mitigated the actions of the killers.

The question is: if the woman was promoting Christianity does that mitigate the actions of the killers?

Two members have posted messages (above) have answered that question one who said . . . . to them (the killers) the missionaries have committed a crime worse than murder, they are killing their children by converting them to Christians thus inferring that their actions in killing the woman might be justified.

If that is the case i.e. it is justifiable for someone to be murdered or punished in any way for attempting to convert a Muslim to Christianity would it be justifiable for someone to kill a Muslim attempting to convert a Christian?

I was thinking of asking exactly that but decided to wait for someone else to notice it first.

What does the Qur’an / hadith say on the subject; does Islam teach that it’s 'OK for the goose but not for the gander’?

I want to know this too, since I believe that no person born a Muslim who knows his religion will apostate.

regarding the matter of orphans being coerced in to Christianity, I say if its in their qadr to die Muslim, they will come back, first thing is to save them from death any which way we can (even if it is with help from Catholics)

[aamirsaab]

....
If that is the case i.e. it is justifiable for someone to be murdered or punished in any way for attempting to convert a Muslim to Christianity would it be justifiable for someone to kill a Muslim attempting to convert a Christian

What does the Qur’an / hadith say on the subject; does Islam teach that it’s 'OK for the goose but not for the gander’??

Apostacy has been covered countless times. Please use the search function or better yet view any of my posts on the matter.

[Thinker]

Apostacy has been covered countless times. Please use the search function or better yet view any of my posts on the matter.

I don't think I was asking about Apostacy, perhaps I didn't exlain myself properly?

Hmm . . . . I have re-read my post I am talking about the person who does the converting not the person who converts.

[suffiyan007]

that's why people think that islam is terrorist.....!stupidity...that a muslim killed a christian woman...she is innocent...!

[aamirsaab]

I don't think I was asking about Apostacy, perhaps I didn't exlain myself properly?

Hmm . . . . I have re-read my post I am talking about the person who does the converting not the person who converts.

Oh my mistake. In that case, there is nothing (that I have read at least) in the Quran or Hadith that would allow that to occur.