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INsearch
10-26-2008, 01:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVkAS...eature=related

this is a vid of a game I enjoy playing on the xbox 360 altho I have not played it because I am not sure if it is Haraam or not? I was wondering if you guys could give me your opinion?
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Yanal
10-26-2008, 01:25 AM
Is there computers or world-wide players? The answer of your first question will depend on this question.:)
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INsearch
10-26-2008, 01:37 AM
I hope I know what you mean by your question lol I generally play it online so I would be playing it against real people from all over the world.
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qassy!
10-26-2008, 01:40 AM
As long as you get your priory's straight, there should not be a problem. Its all animated figures at the end of the day. Just dont get too attached to these video games. Inshallah.
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INsearch
10-26-2008, 01:43 AM
Alright I was just checking :)
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The Khan
10-26-2008, 08:35 AM
I was having my own doubts about animated characters in MMOs...I mean, if you come accross a woman not dressed properly in the outside world, you can keep your eyes away, but in an mmo, if you have to fight that animated character, it's not so easy.

I'm just sticking to good 'ol battlefield 1942 and battlefield vietnam now. :)
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Kas1m
10-26-2008, 08:40 AM
yes and the pak india 1965 battle too lol
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The Khan
10-26-2008, 12:20 PM
Lol.
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INsearch
10-26-2008, 12:29 PM
Alright I have gotten many different opinions on games... some even saying that its only Haraam if you play it to much sooooooo what? game content seriously has no bearing on whether something is Haraam? what about this game I have?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB1wD...eature=related

their is none in this vid (I think) but the game uses allot of fowl language as well... so by allot of peoples reasoning playing such a game is only Haraam if I play it to much? nothing else?
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The Ruler
10-26-2008, 12:31 PM
The game doesn't seem to have half-naked women. At least, none that I can see or know of.

And as far as my knowledge goes, if it doesn't become a net between you and islam, it's fine.
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INsearch
10-26-2008, 12:33 PM
Really? even if the game has swears and people are blown into bits with blood and crap all over the place?
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The Ruler
10-26-2008, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by INsearch
their is none in this vid (I think) but the game uses allot of fowl language as well... so by allot of peoples reasoning playing such a game is only Haraam if I play it to much? nothing else?
Can you not mute it? Or do you have to listen to the language?

The video reminded me to the Texas Chainsaw massacre. Horrible, horrible movie. Brr.
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The Ruler
10-26-2008, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by INsearch
Really? even if the game has swears and people are blown into bits with blood and crap all over the place?
I wouldn't care much for the last bit. And if I go into detail about that, I'm afraid I might be offending people.

But the language could be an issue.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by INsearch
Really? even if the game has swears and people are blown into bits with blood and crap all over the place?
I just wanted to quickly link this in with a question that INsearch asked in a seperate thread about the perceived evils of music.

It is probable that we should view computer games with FAR more caution than music. Their influence is huge. On children and adults.

Animated they may be, but there is evidence to suggest that computer games like this significantly increase agressive thoughts and feelings. Considering the highly realistic scenes these games present, it must surely be worrying (more so than listening to a bit of Stevie Wonder or the Beatles!) that children and adults alike can put themselves into the position of actually killing another life-like character.

How absolutley awful is that!?!

I don't understand why no-body really seems to be condeming computer games like this?
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
I just wanted to quickly link this in with a question that INsearch asked in a seperate thread about the perceived evils of music.

It is probable that we should view computer games with FAR more caution than music. Their influence is huge. On children and adults.

Animated they may be, but there is evidence to suggest that computer games like this significantly increase agressive thoughts and feelings. Considering the highly realistic scenes these games present, it must surely be worrying (more so than listening to a bit of Stevie Wonder or the Beatles!) that children and adults alike can put themselves into the position of actually killing another life-like character.

How absolutley awful is that!?!

I don't understand why no-body really seems to be condeming computer games like this?
I definatly played more games than I should have - and I am very unaggressive imho, as are others who I know who play games a lot. I don't think games are that influential to your behaviour - infact those who do usually pass their time mostly with games seem to be mannered people - as compared to those who are always out hanging out with people - in which I have seen them develop bad manners and habits through. Not saying everyone should start playing games but, I think you are overexaggerating effects of games (or maybe, it is from a few games) - but realistically - I think it is the society which influences those areas of human development in my honest opinion - rather than games. Infact, I feel games, T.V, movies etc are given way too much credit - when the real problems usually are just due to social norms in specific areas.

To give an example, would be some documentary I would watch - showing some children from some rough areas in Scotland, playing games - as if it was probably influencing how they are living their lives. Far from the truth it is however imo, the reason why theirs children with guns and violence being rampant is not due to the games - but due to the gang culture that has existed in those areas for so many years. Why people try to distort the root cause, bewilders me.

I can see it in my own life experiences. I think, being brought up, I have seen it all, but I have never ever got into any of that stuff that others have who may have seen the same things. Like, take those who start leading lives which you can say, fullfill that of the bollywood life style or gang style - I don't think it is because of the films they watched or the songs they listened, but rather the whole culture in the areas they lived in - they were influenced throughout school and so fourth - They had not watched any more or listened to any more than I have. Maybe, myself, being in a society where I could not really relate to others, due to different race and religion - It was harder for them to influence me.

To conclude, playing a range of games or movies - has had no effect on me, nor has watching any films. I am determined it is all down to your upgringing, as to how you play things out, not media outlets.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
I definatly played more games than I should have - and I am very unaggressive imho, as are others who I know who play games a lot. I don't think games are that influential to your behaviour - infact those who do usually pass their time mostly with games seem to be mannered people - as compared to those who are always out hanging out with people - in which I have seen them develop bad manners and habits through. Not saying everyone should start playing games but, I think you are overexaggerating effects of games (or maybe, it is from a few games) - but realistically - I think it is the society which influences those areas of human development in my honest opinion - rather than games. Infact, I feel games, T.V, movies etc are given way too much credit - when the real problems usually are just due to social norms in specific areas.

To give an example, would be some documentary I would watch - showing some children from some rough areas in Scotland, playing games - as if it was probably influencing how they are living their lives. Far from the truth it is however imo, the reason why theirs children with guns and violence being rampant is not due to the games - but due to the gang culture that has existed in those areas for so many years. Why people try to distort the root cause, bewilders me.

I can see it in my own life experiences. I think, being brought up, I have seen it all, but I have never ever got into any of that stuff that others have who may have seen the same things. Like, take those who start leading lives which you can say, fullfill that of the bollywood life style or gang style - I don't think it is because of the films they watched or the songs they listened, but rather the whole culture in the areas they lived in - they were influenced throughout school and so fourth - They had not watched any more or listened to any more than I have. Maybe, myself, being in a society where I could not really relate to others, due to different race and religion - It was harder for them to influence me.

To conclude, playing a range of games or movies - has had no effect on me, nor has watching any films. I am determined it is all down to your upgringing, as to how you play things out, not media outlets.
Ok, but that's your personal experiences and your personal opinion, which is cool.

I'm not saying that computer games are to be blamed for all of the wrongs in society, that would be ridiculous, what I am questioning is why music is shown in such a bad light, but bizarrely computer games (from the reactions so far) seem to be ok!?

Surely if music is "bad", computer games with simulated violence and killing should be altogether intolerable?!
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
Ok, but that's your personal experiences and your personal opinion, which is cool.

I'm not saying that computer games are to be blamed for all of the wrongs in society, that would be ridiculous, what I am questioning is why music is shown in such a bad light, but bizarrely computer games (from the reactions so far) seem to be ok!?

Surely if music is "bad", computer games with simulated violence and killing should be altogether intolerable?!
Music, has been explicitly forbidden in Islam, by the Prophet Muhammad (saw), is why, hence it gets much more spotlight then say movies or games. Not saying, Islam promotes games or movies, but, thats another topic.
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The Khan
10-26-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
I definatly played more games than I should have - and I am very unaggressive imho, as are others who I know who play games a lot. I don't think games are that influential to your behaviour - infact those who do usually pass their time mostly with games seem to be mannered people - as compared to those who are always out hanging out with people - in which I have seen them develop bad manners and habits through. Not saying everyone should start playing games but, I think you are overexaggerating effects of games (or maybe, it is from a few games) - but realistically - I think it is the society which influences those areas of human development in my honest opinion - rather than games. Infact, I feel games, T.V, movies etc are given way too much credit - when the real problems usually are just due to social norms in specific areas.

To give an example, would be some documentary I would watch - showing some children from some rough areas in Scotland, playing games - as if it was probably influencing how they are living their lives. Far from the truth it is however imo, the reason why theirs children with guns and violence being rampant is not due to the games - but due to the gang culture that has existed in those areas for so many years. Why people try to distort the root cause, bewilders me.

I can see it in my own life experiences. I think, being brought up, I have seen it all, but I have never ever got into any of that stuff that others have who may have seen the same things. Like, take those who start leading lives which you can say, fullfill that of the bollywood life style or gang style - I don't think it is because of the films they watched or the songs they listened, but rather the whole culture in the areas they lived in - they were influenced throughout school and so fourth - They had not watched any more or listened to any more than I have. Maybe, myself, being in a society where I could not really relate to others, due to different race and religion - It was harder for them to influence me.

To conclude, playing a range of games or movies - has had no effect on me, nor has watching any films. I am determined it is all down to your upgringing, as to how you play things out, not media outlets.
I second that.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
Music, has been explicitly forbidden in Islam, by the Prophet Muhammad (saw), is why, hence it gets much more spotlight then say movies or games. Not saying, Islam promotes games or movies, but, thats another topic.
But if games or moves had been around in the time of Muhammad surely he would have had a few bad words to say about them, at the very least?

I mean, you are actually simulating the entire process, from start to finish, of taking another persons life in many of these games. Much of the time, this is simulated cold-blooded murder.

How is this remotely permissable?
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
But if games or moves had been around in the time of Muhammad surely he would have had a few bad words to say about them, at the very least?

I mean, you are actually simulating the entire process, from start to finish, of taking another persons life in many of these games. Much of the time, this is simulated cold-blooded murder.

How is this remotely permissable?
Thats speculative. Anyway, scholars have not deemed games as haram - I mean it would be haram if you compromise Islam due to it, but thats general, that is, anything you do that compromises your Islam is haram - even if it is a certain job which stops you from doing your prayers.

Yes, I have played shooting games and so fourth - I guess it must be just the type of person really - because, I did not even get slightly affected - as to me - it is just obviously a "game", I don't see it as anything more.

I think, thats like portraying, that as I play war games - I may suddenly have urges to do mass genocide on nations or the such.

I think, theirs a great saying:

"If Pac-Man had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. "


In the end, I havn't seen any evidence of, someone commiting anything, having been greatly influenced by a game - and not by real life social circumstances. I see it that, people who are involved in both, that is in a society say which is filled with gun and gang culture, who subsequently play games too, have both labelled as key players, which I don't think is fair.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
I second that.
As I said, these are personal opinions and experiences.

I could say that I have watched many horror movies with an 18 certificate but that doesn't make me an evil person nor does it mean I'm going to go out there and hack someone to death with a kitchen knife.

I could even go as far to say that they have COMPLETELY unaffected me. WHO KNOWS.... But hey, there are people out there who create computer-based lives for themselves, perhaps almost socially cut off from the outside world, with no social interaction other than in a virtual sense.

There ARE studies to support the notion that there may be psychological implications to this type of lifestyle.

As I was saying. If music is deemed to be bad, why is the life-like killing or maiming of a person treated with acceptance?

I apologise, but I don't understand?
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
As I said, these are personal opinions and experiences.

I could say that I have watched many horror movies with an 18 certificate but that doesn't make me an evil person nor does it mean I'm going to go out there and hack someone to death with a kitchen knife.

I could even go as far to say that they have COMPLETELY unaffected me. WHO KNOWS.... But hey, there are people out there who create computer-based lives for themselves, perhaps almost socially cut off from the outside world, with no social interaction other than in a virtual sense.

There ARE studies to support the notion that there may be psychological implications to this type of lifestyle.

As I was saying. If music is deemed to be bad, why is the life-like killing or maiming of a person treated with acceptance?

I apologise, but I don't understand?

I guess, music is, scientifically known to affect human emotions and behaviour significantly relative to games.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 01:58 PM
So if they have no psychological effect, why are children not allowed to play them?

^o)
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
So if they have no psychological effect, why are children not allowed to play them?

^o)
Children are susceptible to immitating, but this isn't limited to games - thats more of a universal thing. You go show them some power rangers, and they may be in the kitchen jumping off chairs. Children I would argue are a whole different case, they are influenced by everything, from what parents say, to even what they read. Hence, in all matters, you have to be careful with them, not just games, but everything - so I wouldn't consider that a good arguement against games.
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 02:03 PM
I would also like to add, as a child, I used to play pretty violent games :P, and watch some violent movies. In either cases, I didn't become violent, aggressive or the such - just saying :P.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
I would also like to add, as a child, I used to play pretty violent games :P, and watch some violent movies. In either cases, I didn't become violent, aggressive or the such - just saying :P.
It's not sensible to put all children in the same catagory. As we've already highlighted, you sound like a fairly balanced chap who has remained unaffected by playing violent games (although why anyone would want to play these games is beyond me and I'm not entirely sure what is says about the player!).

Back to your previous comment about children being a different thing altogether that may be so in terms of their development.

NEWSFLASH: ADULTS ARE EASILY INFLUENCED TOO

Come on. We've all been influenced covertly by adverts. We've all done something because someone in authority says it's ok. We're followers. We're influenced just as much as children are but in different ways.

Anyway. Back to the original point.

Computer games like Halo 3 are simulated murder and I want to know why this is considered an acceptable passtime?

imsad :exhausted
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 02:20 PM
Oh come on, Halo 3? That is really hardly anything to worry about. I went to a cousins house a month or 2 ago, played this a bit, I think you will find it very hard to convince me these games need to be, censored.

We will have to agree to disagree, I am not convinced that games are that influential.

As for adverts, they are informing public of products - they are battling to look like the better product. I don't think we can put marketing in the same category as games influencing people to be aggressive/violent or the such.

Games are, just games in the end. I believe, when people read on the newspaper, that millions of muslims were killed in Iraq - would have influenced them to be angry and POSSIBLY become aggressive to some people, or wanting to go fight, kill - but playing Halo 3? Hardly. Its just a game, and people see it that way.

When I play Halo 3, we play laughing, jokingly, nothing serious is thought of it.
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Karina
10-26-2008, 02:30 PM
:D Well maybe that was a bad example!



OK Yes we will have to disagree.

So seriously in a nutshell what we are saying as an answer to our friend is that:

It is ok to act out the brutal ond/or bloody killing of a (simulated) person for pleasure, but it's a sin to listen to a bit of Mozart on the radio.

THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD.

Goodbye. :hiding:
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
:D Well maybe that was a bad example!



OK Yes we will have to disagree.

So seriously in a nutshell what we are saying as an answer to our friend is that:

It is ok to act out the brutal ond/or bloody killing of a (simulated) person for pleasure, but it's a sin to listen to a bit of Mozart on the radio.

THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD.

Goodbye. :hiding:
I'd rather, compare Halo 3, to, maybe, some satanic Death metal songs, I think Mozart tends to follow with something like Tetris ;)
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Karina
10-26-2008, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
I'd rather, compare Halo 3, to, maybe, some satanic Death metal songs, I think Mozart tends to follow with something like Tetris ;)
Well actually I'm in total agreement that Satanic Death Metal should be banned altogether! haha it's AWFUL! What kind of person listens to that garbage??? :D

Actually, Mozart is still music, so obviously it leads us to conclude that:

a bit of simulated mutilation, dismemberment or decapitation is entirely preferable to classical music!

As I said. It's a crazy world. :bump1:
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Karina
10-26-2008, 02:46 PM
deleted
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
This source on banning music is the same book which compares women to black dogs (which must be killed wherever they're seen as they're a "spawn of satan"). It has narrations of people watching how the prophet (S) urinated, astaghfirullah. It has narrations of men watching the prophet's (S) wives bathe (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 5, Number 251), astaghfirullah. It has narrations of the holy prophet ordering women and children to be killed astaghfirullah. It has narrations of people watching Moses bathe, astaghfirullah. Etc. What do you expect?

It's rather hillarious. :D

Plus, I yet have to come across a game which has no background music, lol.
The Khan, you can have your DIY system of belief - but to go propogate this, in this manner is unnacceptable.

For your information, lets look at Bukhairi 1/5/251

Narrated Abu Salama:

'Aisha's brother and I went to 'Aisha and he asked her about the bath of the Prophet. She brought a pot containing about a Sa' of water and took a bath and poured it over her head and at what time there was a screen between her and us.
Doesn't seem so wrong now does it? People needed to be educated as to how to perform the ghusl. I'd go over your other claims but - from previous threads - it seems that you just don't take heed.

Now, you are known to have some very dodgy sources as your educational sources - and you are insulting the works of some of the most authoritive scholars in history - and your excuse is? That you are learning Islam in your own way and from your own sources.

I hope you understand, just how offensive a lot of the stuff you post are. Be careful, mods may just have you banned.
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brotherinfaith
10-26-2008, 03:03 PM
if you speak and can read arabic the khan you would have known that it's the wives of the prophet who narrated how they bath and about the prophet urinating it's not a mistery and the one who narrated the hadith was away from him also if you really read al bukhari you would know what the prophet told the people before his death about loking at his private parts and if you have that kind of belief i am really sorry for you
and music is unlawful whether you like that or not and a true muslim just obeys without having comments
let him brother sixten he seems one of those fooled people and that he just repeats what he hears without thinking about or reading '' inna aw iyakom aala hudan aw fi dalalin mobin ''
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
SixTen, I'm not here to argue. I'm just showing my point of view regarding how baseless the prohibition of Music is, considering the revelation Allah (SWT) sent to Dawood (AHS) was the Zabur, and his gift was the sweetest meledious voice ever, which would make mountains and trees swing along with his voice.

Like I said earlier, I'm not attacking the narrations of the prophet. I'm attacking the 6 unislamic compilations by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, etc.

:w:

No, you are showing how baseless your opinions are. You arn't giving any credible arguements - you don't even know any scholars. You are learning everything by yourself - hence - you are not allowed to give rulings of Islam. If you wish to, go do it on ---------------- forum. This is an islamic forum, which only allows promotion of authentic opinions from scholars - not what you have learnt through reading websites with anyonymous writers (who btw, are progressionist muslims, they also advertise the submitters on their website, wonders why...)

When you have, real scholarly work to propose go ahead - but do not go insulting the sahih hadith collections - or make a mockery of them - because you are also making a mockery of those such as Hanifa, Malik, Shaafi etc. It won't be tolerated, I won't repeat myself. If you wan't to hold a personal opinion - so be it - but do not express it in a way where you mock consensus' of Islam, based on your highly limited (and arguably dodgy) knowledge.

I don't care if you don't want to argue, if you post stuff like that, I will not just ignore it.
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brotherinfaith
10-26-2008, 03:06 PM
the mountains and tree were glorifying allah with him not singing metal and hard rock and music in the quran is reffered to as the voice of satan surat a shuaraa
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barney
10-26-2008, 03:08 PM
I've thought of a problem.

You would have to turn off the microphone and chat options whilst playing online. I know that about 4% of the online gaming community is female and a large proportion of them are kaffir females. I played Halo online as well as COD4 and other MMO's. If you have the communication system working you may inadvertently end up talking to one.
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doorster
10-26-2008, 03:08 PM
yay! LI has its own scholar of "fiqh of games and movies" too (in sixten)!
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Karina
10-26-2008, 03:09 PM
...
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Karina
10-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Does anyone else have an opinion on what the consensus would have been in the times of Prophet Muhammad if violent video games were available as a pass-time?

Are we still saying in answer to the original question that any games involving realistic killing and violence are ok for him to use?

:)
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doorster
10-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by barney
I've thought of a problem.

You would have to turn off the microphone and chat options whilst playing online. I know that about 4% of the online gaming community is female and a large proportion of them are kaffir females. I played Halo online as well as COD4 and other MMO's. If you have the communication system working you may inadvertently end up talking to one.
:)
I am beginning to see the value of your posts.
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The Khan
10-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by SixTen
No, you are showing how baseless your opinions are. You arn't giving any credible arguements - you don't even know any scholars. You are learning everything by yourself - hence - you are not allowed to give rulings of Islam. If you wish to, go do it on ---------------- forum. This is an islamic forum, which only allows promotion of authentic opinions from scholars - not what you have learnt through reading websites with anyonymous writers (who btw, are progressionist muslims, they also advertise the submitters on their website, wonders why...)

When you have, real scholarly work to propose go ahead - but do not go insulting the sahih hadith collections - or make a mockery of them - because you are also making a mockery of those such as Hanifa, Malik, Shaafi etc. It won't be tolerated, I won't repeat myself. If you wan't to hold a personal opinion - so be it - but do not express it in a way where you mock consensus' of Islam, based on your highly limited (and arguably dodgy) knowledge.

I don't care if you don't want to argue, if you post stuff like that, I will not just ignore it.
Oh, I don't know...I haven't read their websites in quite a long time now. >_>

Like I said, I just pointed out what I've come across and have disagreements with. I'm just expressing my view.

Now, following scholars. I'll give a few examples why I don't want to follow them.

Qardawi -

Called for a ban on Pokémon.

Says drinking alcohol in small amounts in energy drinks is alright, but it is not alright to do so for medical purposes.

Says killing Israeli and American citizens (in Iraq), including women and children, is alright regardless of whether they belong to the military or not.

And this man is one of the most respected Sunni scholars in the world right now. :/

Then we heard of the mickey mouse fatwa by a Saudi cleric recently...

Then Zakir Naik praised Yazid, regardless of the fact that he ordered 1,000 women in Medinna to be raped and the holy Ka'aba to be destroyed. This is a historical fact.

If I had the time to dig up, I would do so. I laughed off what these scholars had to say a long time ago.

Anyway, like I said, the topic is music and video games. Not scholars. Stay on topic.
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barney
10-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
Back in the land of Topic....

Does anyone else have an opinion on what the consensus would have been in the times of Prophet Muhammad if violent video games were available as a pass-time?

Are we still saying in answer to the original question that any games involving realistic killing and violence are ok for him to use?

:)
Y'know games like Americas Army and others are used as training tools for the military.
The commandment to prepare yourselves for battle, in those days? I imagine in the 6th century they woulld have found it a useful training or preperation tool.
Well OK, not COD4 or Halo, mayby Rome :Total war Playing as the Parthians. :D
They could have practiced knacking the Byzantines and taking Constantinople before they took Constantinople.
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SixTen
10-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
Oh, I don't know...I haven't read their websites in quite a long time now. >_>

Like I said, I just pointed out what I've come across and have disagreements with. I'm just expressing my view.

Now, following scholars. I'll give a few examples why I don't want to follow them.

Qardawi -

Called for a ban on Pokémon.

Says drinking alcohol in small amounts in energy drinks is alright, but it is not alright to do so for medical purposes.

Says killing Israeli and American citizens (in Iraq), including women and children, is alright regardless of whether they belong to the military or not.

And this man is one of the most respected Sunni scholars in the world right now. :/
Yes, that totally justifies the mockery of the sahih collection.
/sarcasm

Also, he isn't one of the most respected scholars.

(start sarcasm again)
Lets get it straight now guys. The people who wrote, the recent wikipedia articles on Islam, and those guys on free-minds, have finally shown the true Islam, all those people 1000 years ago, were deviated.

/sarcasm
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-26-2008, 03:14 PM
Khan how do you sleep at night after distorting islam and speaking with no knowledge


how do you SLEEP MAN?
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The Khan
10-26-2008, 03:15 PM
I haven't. I've been unable to sleep in the past due to a distorted Islam. I'm on the path to discovering true Islam. I sleep peacefully now. :)

:w:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-26-2008, 03:16 PM
:sl:

I think this thread has digressed more than necessary. Might I remind that this board doesn't tolerate any attacks on Islaam; mocking the hadeeth and the collections of hadeeth is equal to mocking & attacking Islaam.

Thread closed.
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