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arabianprincess
10-26-2008, 01:24 AM
salam wa 3lykom
im writing an essay about Islam and i just needed a second opinion and ur thoughts on it...

any websites etcccccccccccccccc can help me so thank u yall.

Consider the following statement: “Islam an “Arab” religion.” Do you agree or disagree? Please discuss this issue in detail, with sufficient examples and references to support your position as well as due attention to the opposing position as well.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-26-2008, 07:37 AM
wa alaykum us-Salaam

i would mention the fact that on every corner of the planet, so to speak, arab or non, there is a Muslim...back that up with the fact that the country with the most Muslims is Indonesia (i.e a non arab country), as far as i remember, anyway:D

is that what your after :? hmmm

:)
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alcurad
10-28-2008, 03:24 AM
the prophet was arabic, the holy book is in arabic, but the teachings are not special to the arabs, like prayer and so on.
now to understand the qur'an 'correctly' you need to have an Arab's understanding of it, the same goes for the sunnah, since the prophet was addressing the Arabs.
so the religion does have a very strong undertone of 'Arab' in it, but it's forms of worship are universal.
I hope that helps
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czgibson
10-28-2008, 03:32 AM
Greetings,

It's an interesting question, and I like alcurad's answer above.

I haven't got any figures on this, but I often hear it said that most Muslims are non-Arab, so that would be something to look into.

Peace
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iftikhar01
10-29-2008, 07:19 AM
:w:
I dont think so what you are thinking mt brother islam for all universe I am from Pakistan & our country has been independent for the Islam.We asked that We Muslim Cannot Live our life freely in a non Muslim State(India) so there is a State namely Pakistan Which represent also Muslims in world.The Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (S.A.W) is the prophet for all universe.:thumbs

Allah Hafiz:thumbs_up
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Tilmeez
10-29-2008, 08:23 AM
NO! Islam is a universal religion. Apart from the only point that Muhammad S.A.W - the prophet of Islam, was from Arab there is nothing that can be taken as a proof for the point that "Islam is an Arab Religion".

If we closely look at the teachings of Islam we will find that these are for whole world (Universal) regardless of geographical location. Same goes for the number of muslims in Arab /Non-Arab world.
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north_malaysian
10-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Disagree.

1) If Islam is an Arab religion, why it has so many similarities with Judaism? Are Jews ...Arabs too?

2) Islam reformed the Arabs....in fact it deArabized the Arabs... Islam introduced monotheism, banned infanticide, allowed divorce, banned wine, gave women rights to property, introduced almsgiving etc which were foreign to the Arabs.

3) Majority of Muslims are non-Arabs, and there are Arabs who are Christians, Jewish, Sabaeans, Atheists, Buddhists, Baha'is etc... Arabs themselves are multireligious people...
Reply

The Khan
10-29-2008, 10:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
3) Majority of Muslims are non-Arabs, and there are Arabs who are Christians, Jewish, Sabaeans, Atheists, Buddhists, Baha'is etc... Arabs themselves are multireligious people...
The Sabaean term is controversial. It's still not know whether it refered to the Yemenites who worshiped stars or the Mandean gnostic Christians of Southern Iraq.

On topic;

There's nothing Arab in Islam except that the Qur'an is in classical Arabic (which is not spoken by Arabs anymore) and that the preferred language for Salah is in Arabic.

:w:
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 10:13 AM
I once heard

everybody was born a muslim, but it was their choices that made them christian, jewish, hindu, buddhist etc?

I dont know how right that is, so that would explain something, just now sure what!!! :D
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alcurad
10-29-2008, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
1) If Islam is an Arab religion, why it has so many similarities with Judaism? Are Jews ...Arabs too?
rather, Islam and Judaism influenced each other. not to mention both peoples share/d much culturally.

format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
2) Islam reformed the Arabs....in fact it de Arabized the Arabs... Islam introduced monotheism, banned infanticide, allowed divorce, banned wine, gave women rights to property, introduced alms giving etc which were foreign to the Arabs.
infanticide was hardly wide spread, women could divorce before Islam, actually Islam doesn't allow women to 'divorce' rather to seek a settlement, and giving to the needy and travelers was considered quite a good trait much longer before islam and was incorporated within the religion.

format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
3) Majority of Muslims are non-Arabs, and there are Arabs who are Christians, Jewish, Sabaeans, Atheists, Buddhists, Baha'is etc... Arabs themselves are multireligious people...
yes but Islam started amongst the arabs.
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alcurad
10-29-2008, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
...classical Arabic..is not spoken by Arabs anymore...
are you sure of that brother:?
true not as much as it used to be, but it is still contained within modern arabic.
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suffiyan007
10-29-2008, 03:37 PM
if islam is arab religion...No point Allah create a deen for humankind...there're no such thing ...islam is arab religion....only islam written in arabic....just the writting and pronounce the words in arabic....islam is universal..there're many kind race enter islam...some in malaysia, people think islam that enter malay...because malay mostly islam...if malay mostly christian so it will be like english..is it? there no such thing Arab religion..Arab is a race and islam is a religion...:coolious:
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MO783
10-29-2008, 04:12 PM
:sl:

Its a religion for all mankind
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 04:14 PM
i disagree because it makes it sound like its meant for arabs only, or arabs understand it best.

You can excell islamically as a scholar and spiritual leader even if your not arabic by simply learning the language.



:sl:
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waji
10-29-2008, 06:03 PM
:sl:

I disagree with this term "Islam an Arab religion"
Islam is for all Mankind and In Quran Allah said in some ayat (i don't remember the ayat)
that "I have made whole world a of prayer rag for you"
so how can we say that Islam an Arab religion
and it is also a duty of Muslims to Teach others about Islam

:w:
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-30-2008, 10:52 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
are you sure of that brother:?
true not as much as it used to be, but it is still contained within modern arabic.
true say..and it depends on what part of the mid east your at...some dialects are more 'further' than the classical than others...
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chances
11-03-2008, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by waji
:sl:

I disagree with this term "Islam an Arab religion"
Islam is for all Mankind and In Quran Allah said in some ayat (i don't remember the ayat)
that "I have made whole world a of prayer rag for you"
so how can we say that Islam an Arab religion
and it is also a duty of Muslims to Teach others about Islam

:w:
I agree..
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brotherinfaith
11-03-2008, 02:01 PM
wa ma arsalnaka illa rahmaran lil 'alamin
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Liberty
11-04-2008, 12:12 PM
Hahahah considering only 20% of the world's Muslim population are Arabs, fact speaks for itself :)
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Banu_Hashim
11-11-2008, 01:29 PM
Interesting topic. Islam as a religion is unique, because it evolved as a political, social, economic, religious and philosophical entity. It flourished in the Arabian peninsula (specifically the "hejaz" region), the homeland of the Masjid-Al-Haram and Masjid-Al-Nabawi. For this reason, the area has significant importance to muslims. However to say that Islam belongs to the people of this region (i.e. arabs) is wrong. To the OP, in your assignment use the quote of rasullullah (saws) "an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab... except by piety and good action". This shows the Islam was a guidance for all humanity, and not a racial religion as Judaism is essentially (in orthodox judaism i think you can only be a jew is your mother is?).

And as the poster above said... use facts and figures to further back up your point. Stress Islam's position spiritually contradicts any suggestion that it is an "arab religion".
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Banu_Hashim
11-11-2008, 01:38 PM
.... and regarding the classical vs. modern arabic thing.... I don't think even arabs understand the Qur'an properly. They speak conversational arabic which is totally different the classical (and poetical) arabic of the Qur'an. Even if an arab can get the jist of it, it is unlikely they will have understood it properly as it may be a metaphor for something else etc.

So unless you've been trained by a scholar specifically to read and interpret the Qur'an it gets a bit difficult. Ofcourse many words in the Qur'an are used to today... but the context in which they are used was done so 1400 years ago. The language has evolved so much since.
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gmaall
09-30-2009, 01:30 AM
Islam an Arab religion” Do you agree or disagree?.

Islam is compeletly an arab religion.
who is an Arab entity
some one with a native speaker of the arabic language.

a) the quran is native arab ie revealed in arabic
sources: revealed in Arabic 12:2, 13:37, 16:103, 20:113, 26:195, 39:28, 41:3, 43:3,
44:58
b)the secondary sources are also Arabic for logical reasons,
c) the early muslims were arabs
d) the religion practices are done in arabic.
e) even if the muslim do not speak arabic , they pray in arabic.

compare to christianity

a) christians also believe the jewish scripture therefore not all sources were from Jesus christ
b) the jewish scripture are translated in many ancient and modern languages from Hibrew, roman, German english and so on.
c) a part from the gospels other writings are from different apostles such as simon peter, and saint paul and others
d) the christians are not required to pray in one language but do so in various languages.

fathermore both the quran and hadith are attributed to one single source and that is prophet mohamed.

not only is islam arabic but it is totally from single source.
prophet mohammed Ibn abdullah ibn abdul mitalib.,
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جوري
09-30-2009, 01:36 AM
lol funny guy..
if christians believed in jewish scriptures why do they fail to uphold its commandments?
Jews don't recognize a mangod your effigies of him nor do they believe that god eats pigs, a delicatessen loved by christians amongst other nonsensical things that have no room in monotheism..christianity is monolithic in its pagan practices, and no one else recognizes it as monotheistic save for christians!

Islam and Christianity aren't even on the same platform for comparison, but you really gave me a good chuckle with the rest..

didn't your god come from a middle eastern country by the way? I don't think he spoke english nor was he a french man!

all the best
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Rabi Mansur
09-30-2009, 01:41 AM
:sl:

In Islam, the majority of followers are not Arab. Also, look at the story of Malcolm X for an example of how it can be a universal religion. If practiced correctly, it could bring down a lot of racial barriers.

On the other hand, you have to study Arabic to get a handle on the Quran and a lot of the teachings. Arabic seems to me to be the language of Islam. So it definitely has a strong Arabic influence and reflects an Arabic mindset.

:wa:
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Ramadhan
09-30-2009, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
a) christians also believe the jewish scripture therefore not all sources were from Jesus christ

Is this supposed to be a joke, an irony, or a sarcasm?
because that statement is so wrong on so many counts, so many levels.

I do not get it.
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gmaall
09-30-2009, 02:46 AM
Gossamer skye

The point I was making is that the christian scriptures include OT and NT and they are written in many languages therefore all the people understand it in their own language and people do not have to pray in one language. Arabic.

hence the point Islam is an Arabic religion.
she is arabic because she speaks arabic.

muslim have to pray 4 times a day
and have to do so in arabic.
to do so the have to learn the arabic prayers.
to understand the religion really well you have to understand arabic.

to get to islam you need arabic.

Islam is sea vassel
and arabic is the water.

the more water the better for the vassel of islam so it can sail.

I am not saying it is bad or good.,

just making the point how arabic is important to Muslims and Islam.

not so is christianity. today.
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جوري
09-30-2009, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
Gossamer skye

The point I was making is that the christian scriptures include OT and NT and they are written in many languages therefore all the people understand it in their own language and people do not have to pray in one language. Arabic.
indeed, but is a pointless point to point out ;D given the jews don't acknowledge you or your god and you in fact don't follow the laws orcommandments of God- at least as far as the god of the OT is concerned!

hence the point Islam is an Arabic religion.
she is arabic because she speaks arabic.
Not only is that fragment a non-sequitur it is also nonsensical!
muslim have to pray 4 times a day
Muslims pray five times a day plus nawafil.. shouldn't you do some basic learning before writing out of your a**?
and have to do so in arabic.
to do so the have to learn the arabic prayers.
to understand the religion really well you have to understand arabic.
The best folks to understand the religion are devout Muslims, and that actually goes without saying unless you prefer to bury your head in the sand.. indeed prayers are performed in Arabic, which is a Semitic language, same as the Jews pray in Hebrew another Semitic language of inferior breeding but that is a digression.. the point you have made actually should highlight to you, how you differ from monotheistic religion and their practiced prayers.. only paganists I believe then and now played the organ and dance around like hooligans before effigies of their gods!

all the best!
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north_malaysian
09-30-2009, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
hence the point Islam is an Arabic religion.
I prefer to say that Islam is a religion which Arabic is an important language... plus not all words in the Quran are of Arabic origin.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
she is arabic because she speaks arabic.
there are millions of Malaysians who can speak Arabic, but they dont call themselves Arabs or recognised by the Arabs as Arab people.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
muslim have to pray 4 times a day
5 times.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
Islam is sea vassel
and arabic is the water.

the more water the better for the vassel of islam so it can sail.
wow... I'll give you reps for this.

format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
I am not saying it is bad or good.,

just making the point how arabic is important to Muslims and Islam.
ok. point taken.
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Rabi Mansur
09-30-2009, 03:04 AM
am not saying it is bad or good.,

just making the point how arabic is important to Muslims and Islam.

not so is christianity. today.
:sl:
Interesting points. :hmm: It certainly helps to study Hebrew and Greek if you want to understand Christianity but it is not essential. I've studied both and it made a big difference in my Bible studies, but one can really do just fine with English only. There are plenty of really good translations and commentaries on the Bible.

On the other hand, Arabic is fundamental to Islam. I have been studying the past few months and Arabic is still a barrier to me. Many of the religious terms are Arabic terms, they haven't always translated to english well. And when I study Quran in english, I am told that I better keep studying Arabic or I won't really appreciate and understand Quran. It is discouraging. :exhausted

:wa:
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Ramadhan
09-30-2009, 04:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
Gossamer skye

The point I was making is that the christian scriptures include OT and NT and they are written in many languages therefore all the people understand it in their own language and people do not have to pray in one language. Arabic.

hence the point Islam is an Arabic religion.
she is arabic because she speaks arabic.

muslim have to pray 4 times a day
and have to do so in arabic.
to do so the have to learn the arabic prayers.
to understand the religion really well you have to understand arabic.

to get to islam you need arabic.

Islam is sea vassel
and arabic is the water.

the more water the better for the vassel of islam so it can sail.

I am not saying it is bad or good.,

just making the point how arabic is important to Muslims and Islam.

not so is christianity. today.

Did you get all these stuff from your priest or did you make those up yourself?
What stuff are you on?

The only truth in your babble is that arabic language is important to muslims, because that's the language in which Al Qur'an is revealed.

Don't you think there should be Aramaic or ancient hebrew bible so we know what the christianity teachings actually are?
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Sojourn
09-30-2009, 04:33 AM
I'd say there's some truth to the phrase since following the sunnah is integral and that requires accepting some aspects of Arab culture.
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gmaall
09-30-2009, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
:sl:
, but one can really do just fine with English only. There are plenty of really good translations and commentaries on the Bible.

.. I am told that I better keep studying Arabic or I won't really appreciate and understand Quran. It is discouraging. :exhausted

:wa:
good points.

I want to not offend Muslims for their believes but so far

"Gossamer skye"
claimed the (all) christians eat bigs and probably enjoy and
"Hebrew another Semitic language of inferior breeding"..

how can you offend other people if you are promoting a religion that is for all minkind.
it is hard to differenciate "Us" the Arabic people from the arabic muslim Identity against them the chrisitans and the Jewish... really really difficult.


if islam compelete way of live at the center of that is a) the Quran and the sunnah and all the Islamic documentations. which is arabic.. scriptures.

no other people have translated the whole islamic scriptures and totaly made it into other languages.. (as far as I know)..

I would love to see the world where everyone prays their mother language.
and praise god who made them their languages.

and Arabic is just one of the langauges of the world not more important then others.

and I would be the first to defend if people claim it is inferior or the people are. that is immature.

making people learn your language is a bit imperialism.
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Hugo
09-30-2009, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
good points. I want to not offend Muslims for their believes but so far

"Gossamer skye" claimed the (all) christians eat bigs and probably enjoy and
"Hebrew another Semitic language of inferior breeding"..

how can you offend other people if you are promoting a religion that is for all minkind. it is hard to differenciate "Us" the Arabic people from the arabic muslim Identity against them the Christian and the Jewish... really really difficult. if islam compelete way of live at the center of that is a) the Quran and the sunnah and all the Islamic documentations. which is arabic.. scriptures.

no other people have translated the whole islamic scriptures and totaly made it into other languages.. (as far as I know).. I would love to see the world where everyone prays their mother language. and praise god who made them their languages. and Arabic is just one of the langauges of the world not more important then others.

and I would be the first to defend if people claim it is inferior or the people are. that is immature.

making people learn your language is a bit imperialism.
When writing an essay like this it is a good starting point to think about what problem you are trying to solve by completing the essay. Here we might say the problem might be mutual misunderstanding or cultural misrepresentation or a possible clash between western and eastern modes of thought or Muslims tend to give unquestioning support to Islamic dogma but Christians and Jews take a more openly questioning approach to their faith etc. That will give your essay focus.

Now I am not suggesting you will solve an age old difficulty but you can try to go some way to bridging any gaps there are if only in your own mind.

Secondly, you must understand that everyone has bias and there is not a lot you can do about it but you can KNOW or be aware of your own bias and that will help you keep a balanced course.

One must not set out to offend but on the other hand one has to be honest and forthright if any value is to emerge here. For example Professor Bernard Lewis has been both very critical of Islam and very complimentary so one does not have to be one or the other to say something of value. As Professor Bronowski once said about the role of a student:

It important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are not here to hero-worship what is known but to question it.
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GreyKode
09-30-2009, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
good points.

I want to not offend Muslims for their believes but so far

"Gossamer skye"
claimed the (all) christians eat bigs and probably enjoy and
"Hebrew another Semitic language of inferior breeding"..

how can you offend other people if you are promoting a religion that is for all minkind.
it is hard to differenciate "Us" the Arabic people from the arabic muslim Identity against them the chrisitans and the Jewish... really really difficult.


if islam compelete way of live at the center of that is a) the Quran and the sunnah and all the Islamic documentations. which is arabic.. scriptures.

no other people have translated the whole islamic scriptures and totaly made it into other languages.. (as far as I know)..

I would love to see the world where everyone prays their mother language.
and praise god who made them their languages.

and Arabic is just one of the langauges of the world not more important then others.

and I would be the first to defend if people claim it is inferior or the people are. that is immature.

making people learn your language is a bit imperialism.
One simple question,
What language did Jesus(pbuh), speak? One language or many?
The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and the sayings of the prophet(pbuh) were in his mother tongue what is so strange about that?
There are translations of the Qur'an in many different languages, some of the top scholars of Islam were not arab but persian like the famous hadith collector al bukhari, and also there are famous pakistani and Indian muslim scholars, islamic material is present in those languages as well, urdu, farsi and indonesian. etc etc
Second, Islam spread in the region of the arabian peninsula and the middle east which is predominantly arab speaking.
Third, arab christians have hymns and prayers which are in greek I think, (correct me if wrong) but not arabic.
Fourth, Islam didn't spread very much into europe or the roman empire thus you can't find much material in those languages, unlike for example pakistan or Indonesia.
Finally, what other christian material exists in different languages besides the bible? I need an answer.
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al Iskander
09-30-2009, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
I'd say there's some truth to the phrase since following the sunnah is integral and that requires accepting some aspects of Arab culture.
I saw during the pilgrimage a lot of muslims coming from Russia , Albania or Bosnia . These countries are not Arabic but European or Slavic and those people don't know the Arabic culture .

I am french of origin and Christian converted to the Islam and I promise you it is by no means to be Arabic to be Muslim .

Moreover , that means " Arabic culture " today ? :hmm:

Friendly .
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Sojourn
10-01-2009, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by al Iskander
I saw during the pilgrimage a lot of muslims coming from Russia , Albania or Bosnia . These countries are not Arabic but European or Slavic and those people don't know the Arabic culture .
Non-Arabs can adopt Arab culture.
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north_malaysian
10-01-2009, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Non-Arabs can adopt Arab culture.
in this part of the world the Arabs adopted Malay culture.
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mkh4JC
10-01-2009, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Finally, what other christian material exists in different languages besides the bible? I need an answer.
As just two examples, John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress is translated into many languages, an allegorical tale about the life of Christians, translated into more than 200 languages actually: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_Progress

C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia series has Christian elements (Lewis was Christian) and is available in 41 languages.
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Ramadhan
10-01-2009, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
if islam compelete way of live at the center of that is a) the Quran and the sunnah and all the Islamic documentations. which is arabic.. scriptures.
Yeah...so?

Are you suggesting that Al Qur'an should have been revelead in other languages, such as italian and all the sunnah been recorded in english, considering:
a. The prophet Muhammad SAW was an arab AND illiterate
b. the community where Muhammad SAW lived was an arab community
?

Do you think the jewish community where Jesus pbuh lived would have accepted his teachings if Jesus pbuh started to speak to them in GREEK?
Or was the injeel revealed to Jesus pbuh in chinese?


no other people have translated the whole islamic scriptures and totaly made it into other languages.. (as far as I know)..
apparently you do not know very far.


I would love to see the world where everyone prays their mother language.
and praise god who made them their languages.
Muslims can pray in ANY language they understand. It is only the recitation of Al Qur'an that we recite in Arabic, because well...if you still don't know yet.. Al Qur'an is in arabic.
And why the Qur'an must be in arabic? let me see.... maybe it's one way to preserve it, unlike some other scriptures?

I speak four languages, I can pray to Allah SWT in any of those four languages that I am comfortable with, with the exception of shalat and Qur'an recitation.


making people learn your language is a bit imperialism.
You have not traveled much, have you?
Reply

جوري
10-01-2009, 06:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall

"Gossamer skye"
claimed the (all) christians eat bigs and probably enjoy and
"Hebrew another Semitic language of inferior breeding"..
The point is neither of all or some.. the point is that your alleged god abrogated a commandment and not directly of something he loathed.. one wonders why your god is so fickle and indecisive?
Indeed Hebrew is a lesser language than Arabic even though they are both Semitic but that was never the point as I have no interest in expanding on details of what makes languages evolved and rich, surely even you can understand that no messenger or god on earth spoke English, rather your apologists can't agree whether it was Latin/Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic that he spoke, don't you think the words of your god and his language are of supreme importance? Just so you are not alleging this one day
Leviticus 11,7-8 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you (KJV.) Deuteronomy 14,8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass (KJV.)

and then changing his mind the next by some questionable means?

how can you offend other people if you are promoting a religion that is for all minkind.
it is hard to differenciate "Us" the Arabic people from the arabic muslim Identity against them the chrisitans and the Jewish... really really difficult.
Where in any of my posts did I affirm that I am promoting my religion to you or anyone else? Doesn't logic dictate that if I were interested in extending that promotion that I'd be in pursuit of Christian/ Jewish/Atheist/Buddhist forums than being a member on an Islamic board?

As far as I am concerned you have no religion or identity, you are folks content turning a man (as per the epistle of his own brother James) cursing the earth for not bearing him fruit, going hungry, using bathrooms, praying not to be forsaken, a man who has poor judgment over the people whom he chose to carry the torch in his absence; into a god and making the central theme of your religion focus on something as anti-climactic as his death, not his message or his work.. what is the point of that? Good for you, you are eating your god's flesh and drinking his blood, and believe that he died for you. God has died and the universe didn't collapse, to you that is a proper superior religion, then be happy and go live your life.. not sure what the deal is, why do you have to spend the bulk of your life fixating on something entirely laughable (as Islam being an 'Arab religion') simply to appease yourself into believing the man/god fantasies are valid?

if islam compelete way of live at the center of that is a) the Quran and the sunnah and all the Islamic documentations. which is arabic.. scriptures.
What is your point?
no other people have translated the whole islamic scriptures and totaly made it into other languages.. (as far as I know)..
really?
http://www.islamway.com/SF/quran/

funny you should say as Islam has 1.86 billion adherents and it seems that your church elders are having a fit over it..
For the first time in history we are no longer at the top: the Muslims have overtaken us," Formenti told Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano in an interview, saying the data referred to 2006.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL3068682420080330

I would love to see the world where everyone prays their mother language.
and praise god who made them their languages.
That is called supplication, people make supplications in their mother tongue all the time.. Proper prayer (salat) and supplication (treating god as your personal genie on the occasion of stress) are completely different things!

and Arabic is just one of the langauges of the world not more important then others.
and I would be the first to defend if people claim it is inferior or the people are. that is immature.
You are as smart as you are educated.. everyone has an opinion of course and you are entitled to yours, so long as in the scheme of things you realize that no one really gives a **** what you think!
making people learn your language is a bit imperialism.
whatever you say..
for the Muslims on board.. I end on this most noble note:


(Yusuf Ali: 6:66-68)

"But thy people reject this, though it is the Truth. Say: "Not mine is the responsibility for arranging your affairs."

"For every Message is a limit of time, And soon shall ye know it."

"When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong."




:w:
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kawaiigardiner
10-01-2009, 06:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Liberty
Hahahah considering only 20% of the world's Muslim population are Arabs, fact speaks for itself :)
And the interpretations of Islam are diverse as well - too bad there are those who are using islam to push pan-Arab colonialism by stealth by claiming it is part of Islam.
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جوري
10-01-2009, 06:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
And the interpretations of Islam are diverse as well - too bad there are those who are using islam to push pan-Arab colonialism by stealth by claiming it is part of Islam.
'pan-Arabism' is actually a British grounded and endorsed constitution meant of course to divide and conquer.. something they have dominated and mastered for centuries to bring age old empires to shambles.

all the best!
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kawaiigardiner
10-01-2009, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
'pan-Arabism' is actually a British grounded and endorsed constitution meant of course to divide and conquer.. something they have dominated and mastered for centuries to bring age old empires to shambles.

all the best!
Ah yes, conspiracy theories are abound; when people are goose stepping to Arab Islam its because they're practicing the pure Islam but when there are many varieties of Islam being practiced it is apparently the 'evil British' intervening in Muslim countries.
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جوري
10-01-2009, 07:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Ah yes, conspiracy theories are abound; when people are goose stepping to Arab Islam its because they're practicing the pure Islam but when there are many varieties of Islam being practiced it is apparently the 'evil British' intervening in Muslim countries.
It is no conspiracy theories, haven't you ever opened a history book?
How hilarious are you, you don't even need to focus on Muslims on this matter, look at their history in Hong Kong, India, China (forcing people into opium trade and imposing an open door policy) you can't possibly be that ignorant?.. and if you are, as stated on my other thread, I have to get up in four hours and not that interested in teaching you history anew, if you can't keep yourself on a level without stopping down to sarcastic platitudes that a fifth grader can rebut with minimal effort then just wait this one out on the sidelines!

all the best
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GreyKode
10-01-2009, 07:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Ah yes, conspiracy theories are abound; when people are goose stepping to Arab Islam its because they're practicing the pure Islam but when there are many varieties of Islam being practiced it is apparently the 'evil British' intervening in Muslim countries.
Indeed youre right there have been several interpretations of Islam,
Particularly youre very fond of the mu'tazilite direction, throughout history people have tried to shape Islam in a way to suit their mindsets, but a true believer who searches for the true path will accept the method of the prophet muhammad(pbuh) and his companions, wethere arab or not they are to be followed in matters of religion.
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kawaiigardiner
10-01-2009, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Indeed youre right there have been several interpretations of Islam,
Particularly youre very fond of the mu'tazilite direction, throughout history people have tried to shape Islam in a way to suit their mindsets, but a true believer who searches for the true path will accept the method of the prophet muhammad(pbuh) and his companions, wethere arab or not they are to be followed in matters of religion.
Assuming that what Muhammad demanded was blind and illogical obedience regardless of whether it conflicts with rationalism and reason; whether one is willing to contextual and then extrapolate from that lessons that can be learned and values that are transcendent.

Personally for me, I don't see it as being a matter of being one as superior to another; or one being 'more correct' or otherwise you'll fall into the trap of Plato's Ghost which causes a confrontational ultimate truth rather than the possible existence of multiple truths emanating from a single source.
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Hugo
10-01-2009, 11:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Indeed youre right there have been several interpretations of Islam,
Particularly youre very fond of the mu'tazilite direction, throughout history people have tried to shape Islam in a way to suit their mindsets, but a true believer who searches for the true path will accept the method of the prophet muhammad(pbuh) and his companions, wethere arab or not they are to be followed in matters of religion.
You have a point but how can we, anyone know he or she is a 'true' believer as opposed to a false one? Here one could easily say that you have a mindset that tells you you are a true believer and that hardly seem rationally different to any other person. Being a true believer is not it seems to me a question of mindset but a question of what would constitute a minimum set of beliefs and one supposes that to be a Muslim its just the 5 pillars?
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kawaiigardiner
10-01-2009, 12:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You have a point but how can we, anyone know he or she is a 'true' believer as opposed to a false one? Here one could easily say that you have a mindset that tells you you are a true believer and that hardly seem rationally different to any other person. Being a true believer is not it seems to me a question of mindset but a question of what would constitute a minimum set of beliefs and one supposes that to be a Muslim its just the 5 pillars?
You could ask the same thing about Christianity; there are Christians who claim that their interpretation is more 'correct' and 'authentic' than others. There is a common set of principles, as soon as you start moving up from the 5 pillars you're eventually going to start kicking a lot of people out of 'Islam' because they don't happen to sit with what you might consider Islam.

This is why there is sectarianism that is rife in the Ummah; it isn't the differences but the lack of respect for those differences that is causing friction. Until there is respect by all sides and agreement not to impose views via either political or violent means on another group of people, things won't improve.
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Danah
10-01-2009, 12:42 PM
Arabs in Islam are the minority.

Personally, I find it a blessing that Quran and Sunnah happened to be in one language, let alone Arabic. That was one of the most effective reasons (After the well of Allah) that lead to preserve the Quran for more than 1400 years in a way to make it preserved in one language to be the source and be translated to other languages. Much better than what we are seeing now in many "versions" of the bible where no two copies are identical, claiming that they are only differ in the use of words!!! due to the facts that it was written in more than one language at the early beginning.

In case of Quran there is no space for such thing, if you read any translation of Quran and have some doubts about some words and want to know the EXACT words just refer back to the original preserved copy of Quran which is in Arabic
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Hugo
10-01-2009, 01:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Danah
Arabs in Islam are the minority. Personally, I find it a blessing that Quran and Sunnah happened to be in one language, let alone Arabic. That was one of the most effective reasons (After the well of Allah) that lead to preserve the Quran for more than 1400 years in a way to make it preserved in one language to be the source and be translated to other languages. Much better than what we are seeing now in many "versions" of the bible where no two copies are identical, claiming that they are only differ in the use of words!!! due to the facts that it was written in more than one language at the early beginning.

In case of Quran there is no space for such thing, if you read any translation of Quran and have some doubts about some words and want to know the EXACT words just refer back to the original preserved copy of Quran which is in Arabic
Its only a blessing if you happen to be an Arab speaker and also acquainted with the way the words were used when they were written, they were not special words, they were everyday words. In practice if you have doubts about the meaning of a word in the Qu'ran ones goes to an Arab/English lexicon to find out its meaning such as Edward Lanes. One cannot simply go to the Qu'ran and instantly know exactly what a word means and any scholar worth his salt will have a lexicon.

There are 1,000 of different translation of the Bible in umpteen different languages but they don't just appear out of nowhere they are derived from the original Greek/Hebrew language or in some cases other translations and someone has decided to do it. The Bible overwhelmingly is written in either Hebrew or Greek so you are I feel exaggerating to make a point.

Of course translations differ in the words they use - what possible point are you making here? The Qu'ran borrowed words from many other languages because one presumes there were no Arabic words for some of the ideas that needed to be expressed so one could argue it was written in several languages.
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Muslimlearner
10-01-2009, 04:04 PM
Dear sister,you can use the words of the Prophet Muhammad SAUS form his last ceremon:
...........
,,All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.''
........

Bismillah wa salatu wa salam ala Russul-Allah SAUS!
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Uthman
10-01-2009, 04:17 PM
Greetings Hugo,
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
One cannot simply go to the Qu'ran and instantly know exactly what a word means and any scholar worth his salt will have a lexicon.
Lisaan ul-'Arab is considered the standard lexicon amongst scholars and all the words from the Qur'an are contained therein and their meanings explained.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
The Qu'ran borrowed words from many other languages because one presumes there were no Arabic words for some of the ideas that needed to be expressed so one could argue it was written in several languages.
Although some of the words used in the Qur'an had originally come from other languages, all of the words had already become a part of the Arabic language by the time that the Qur'an was revealed.

Regards
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gmaall
10-01-2009, 04:53 PM
a, If i read verses from the quran in any langauge other then arabic it is not quran but translation.

the issue is that muslims believe that what is holy and from god is the arabic words that are the holy quran. it is devine from god. they can not be substitute into another langauge. you can comment about them and translate them but what is holy is the words from god (that is the arabic vesion) and reading it you get rewards.

therefore Islam is an Arab religion.

the Islam holy book is arabic,
you have to pray 5 times a day in arabic,
call to prayer 5 times aday in arabic,
turn towards mecca (arab country) ,
and go and visit there if you can afford it.

and yeah imitate the sunnah.. of the prophet and his friends. all a group of arab men.
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zakirs
10-01-2009, 06:04 PM
Peace ,

a, If i read verses from the quran in any langauge other then arabic it is not quran but translation.

the issue is that muslims believe that what is holy and from god is the arabic words that are the holy quran. it is devine from god. they can not be substitute into another langauge. you can comment about them and translate them but what is holy is the words from god (that is the arabic vesion) and reading it you get rewards.
True , any other language is interpretation but not translation since exact translation is next to impossible.But remember reading in What ever language you know is also full of rewards

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Those who attempt to read it with difficulty (because of their lack of familiarity with the language) will merit double rewards.” (Reported by at-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud; also Bukhari and Muslim in their own words)

therefore Islam is an Arab religion.
So according to your logic Science is an British subject because these days scientific papers are published in english ? rubbish right ?

the Islam holy book is arabic,
So? It had to be in some language, God willed it to be arabic

turn towards mecca (arab country) ,
More than the fact that its arabic it is home to Kabah

and go and visit there if you can afford it.
even if you can't chances are you can visit thanks to many donors :)

and yeah imitate the sunnah.. of the prophet and his friends. all a group of arab men.
Aisha (raziallahu anha ) is an counter example -Historians see Aisha as a learned woman, who tirelessly recounted stories from the life of Muhammad and explained Muslim history and traditions. She is considered to be one of the foremost scholars of Islam's early age with some historians accrediting up to one-quarter of the Islamic Sharia (Islamic religious law), based on the collection of hadiths, to have stemmed from her narrations. Aisha became the most prominent of Muhammad’s wives and is revered as a role model by millions of women.
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Muslimlearner
10-01-2009, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
a, If i read verses from the quran in any langauge other then arabic it is not quran but translation.

the issue is that muslims believe that what is holy and from god is the arabic words that are the holy quran. it is devine from god. they can not be substitute into another langauge. you can comment about them and translate them but what is holy is the words from god (that is the arabic vesion) and reading it you get rewards.

therefore Islam is an Arab religion.

the Islam holy book is arabic,
you have to pray 5 times a day in arabic,
call to prayer 5 times aday in arabic,
turn towards mecca (arab country) ,
and go and visit there if you can afford it.

and yeah imitate the sunnah.. of the prophet and his friends. all a group of arab men.
O,that's not all:the language in Paradise will be...... guess which one!
Yeah:arabic :)

do you know that among the Prophets there are more arabs:they were sent to their nations,(whatever languages they had),but the last one Muhammad SAUS was send to all mankind.And Allah SUT told us He will give the knowledge so Islam will spread with no language barriers,as you can see today.

Subhan-Allah!
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GreyKode
10-01-2009, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
a, If i read verses from the quran in any langauge other then arabic it is not quran but translation.



the issue is that muslims believe that what is holy and from god is the arabic words that are the holy quran. it is devine from god. they can not be substitute into another langauge. you can comment about them and translate them but what is holy is the words from god (that is the arabic vesion) and reading it you get rewards.

The style of the arabic in the Qur'an is miraculously unique and profound, I don't think that's the case for the bible(i.e. it is any different if in its original language), nevertheless the Jews do maintains that the OT is most unique in hebrew.



the Islam holy book is arabic,
The Qur'an was revealed in arabic, what's the problem with that?the bible was reveled in...Hebrew
you have to pray 5 times a day in arabic,
How many times do chrisitians pray? I know youre gonna answer me saying we can pray all day but that only compares to du'aa, and du'aa can be in any language.
call to prayer 5 times aday in arabic,
what is the call for prayer in chrisitianity like?
turn towards mecca (arab country) ,
and go and visit there if you can afford it.
Are you serious? Jesus(pbuh) was born in an arab country and christians do pilgrimage to that country therefore chrisitianity is only for arabs.


and yeah imitate the sunnah.. of the prophet and his friends. all a group of arab men.
What were the friends of Jesus(pbuh) like?

The simple answer to this argument is that christianity's history is not as documented as that of Islam, do you know how Jesus(pbuh) and his companions acted, fine details of their lives, I don't think so, although I could be wrong but anyways I think christians would be very fond of imitating Jesus(pbuh) and his companions.
Consider the Jews for example, they have a lot of things they do that can be considered the sunna of moses(pbuh) and his companions.
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Muhaba
10-01-2009, 06:56 PM
Why is english the international language? why is it that in airports, airlines, etc all over the world staff speak their native language as well as english? Why do ppl all over the world try to learn english as well as their native language? So that the world can have a common language to communicate in. The same is the case with arabic for the Muslims. It is the muslim international language. All muslims should try to learn arabic so they can understand Quran, hadith, & great islamic books for themselves! Although many books have been translated into other languages, still translation is usually not the same as the work in its original language.
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zakirs
10-01-2009, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
Why is english the international language? why is it that in airports, airlines, etc all over the world staff speak their native language as well as english? Why do ppl all over the world try to learn english as well as their native language? So that the world can have a common language to communicate in. The same is the case with arabic for the Muslims. It is the muslim international language. All muslims should try to learn arabic so they can understand Quran, hadith, & great islamic books for themselves! Although many books have been translated into other languages, still translation is usually not the same as the work in its original language.
^^ +1 , and i guess Islam is a universal religion with some emphasis given to arabic.But we should not also forget that there have been many other Prophets pbut sent to many tribes of humanity in many other languages.So i guess no language is superior over other.(may Allah pardon me if i am wrong)
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Danah
10-01-2009, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Its only a blessing if you happen to be an Arab speaker
Did you read my post very well? I said "I find it a blessing that Quran and Sunnah happened to be in one language, let alone Arabic" so I was talking about it being revealed along with Sunnah in one language so that will be way easier for those who will follow the teachings, they will have to learn one language to know the teaching.


and also acquainted with the way the words were used when they were written, they were not special words, they were everyday words.
If you are an Arab speaker you will not find them normal everyday words! the miracle of Quran is in its wording, It was a challenge for the most eloquent Arabs at that time (Tribes of Quraish) which they failed to came up with one verse like it.

In practice if you have doubts about the meaning of a word in the Qu'ran ones goes to an Arab/English lexicon to find out its meaning such as Edward Lanes. One cannot simply go to the Qu'ran and instantly know exactly what a word means and any scholar worth his salt will have a lexicon.
Bro Uthman Answered, no need to repeat.

There are 1,000 of different translation of the Bible in umpteen different languages but they don't just appear out of nowhere they are derived from the original Greek/Hebrew language or in some cases other translations and someone has decided to do it.
Having the bible in two languages Greek/Hebrew is one reason to have such variety in all versions

The Bible overwhelmingly is written in either Hebrew or Greek so you are I feel exaggerating to make a point.
Am I?
Okay, then let me make it clearer.
Its Allah way in sending prophets to people. Any holy book has to be revealed in the language of the messenger that this book is revealed to in order to know how to explain it to people (Arabic was the language of Muhammed Peace be upon him). At the same time any prophet has to speak the same language that the people he sent to speak so they can understand each other perfectly. This has been mentioned already in the Quran:
And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.[14:4]
So we can't imagine an Arab prophet sent to Chinese people and Allah reveal an English holy book!!!

Of course translations differ in the words they use - what possible point are you making here? The Qu'ran borrowed words from many other languages because one presumes there were no Arabic words for some of the ideas that needed to be expressed so one could argue it was written in several languages.
Answered by bro Uthman as well.
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Hugo
10-01-2009, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
Why is english the international language? why is it that in airports, airlines, etc all over the world staff speak their native language as well as english? Why do ppl all over the world try to learn english as well as their native language? So that the world can have a common language to communicate in. The same is the case with arabic for the Muslims. It is the muslim international language. All muslims should try to learn arabic so they can understand Quran, hadith, & great islamic books for themselves! Although many books have been translated into other languages, still translation is usually not the same as the work in its original language.
I am not quite sure why it is the international language but it is. However, English borrows from everywhere and when a language does that it adds richness and subtlety which perhaps could not be obtained in any other way because it is not just the words that transfer but the idea behind them. If my memory serves me well I think this year the number of difference words in English reached over a million which is a staggering amount given that an educated person probably has a vocabulary of about 50,000.

In practice this means you can say or express just about anything in English that can be said at all. The Qu'ran in Arabic has 2,822 different words with 582 words covering 80% of what is said.

So it seems to me it is perfectly possible to provide an excellent translation into English and that goes for all the hadith and other Islamic books and if you go to Amazon you can find almost everything you need there (some are a bit pricey though) and for research you can use one of the many online libraries such as searchtruth.com and of course the same applies to the Bible.

Of course I agree that there is nothing like reading it in the original language but to do that you have to know what the words meant 14 centuries ago so just being able to speak and read Arabic is not sufficient and neither is it a practical possibility for the vast majority of people.

There is nothing special about Arabic or English they are just what we have after a long line of language development going back 5 or 6 thousand years - long before Abraham - the Sumarians it is said for example invented writing 15 centuries before Abraham.

My own view for what its worth is we need to hear God speaking to us through the scriptures and I am absolutely sure he is not limited to English or Arabic or Hebrew.
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Hugo
10-01-2009, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Danah
Did you read my post very well? I said I find it a blessing that Quran and Sunnah happened to be in one language, let alone Arabic" so I was talking about it being revealed along with Sunnah in one language so that will be way easier for those who will follow the teachings, they will have to learn one language to know the teaching.

Hugo - yes I think I understood what you said but my point still seems to be valid unless you meant that at the time of the prophet it had to be in Arabic.

If you are an Arab speaker you will not find them normal everyday words! the miracle of Quran is in its wording, It was a challenge for the most eloquent Arabs at that time (Tribes of Quraish) which they failed to came up with one verse like it.

Hugo - I am not sure what you are saying, they are not in the 21 centenary everyday words because they were written 14 centuries ago so yes they would be a challenge today and that is why I and Uthman mentioned lexicons. They had to be everyday words back then else no one would have understood them at the time.

Having the bible in two languages Greek/Hebrew is one reason to have such variety in all versions.

Hugo - there is no more variety in Bible translations than one would find in translations of the Qu'ran and I think you are overstating the point. Translations are made one hopes by scholars or Herbrew and Greek

Its Allah way in sending prophets to people. Any holy book has to be revealed in the language of the messenger that this book is revealed to in order to know how to explain it to people (Arabic was the language of Muhammed Peace be upon him). At the same time any prophet has to speak the same language that the people he sent to speak so they can understand each other perfectly. This has been mentioned already in the Quran:

And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.[14:4]
I absolutely agree with you but it is not an argument that would say we should never make translations because that would condemn that vast majority of people to have no scriptures at all - do you not agree?
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Hugo
10-01-2009, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zakirs
Peace,True, any other language is interpretation but not translation since exact translation is next to impossible.But remember reading in What ever language you know is also full of rewards
This just reminded me of a principle use by Jews and Christians with regard to meaning and application of what we read in scripture. It is that to go from the text to application without interpretation is itself heresy.

This frees up the notion of meaning and language wonderfully because it forces us to ask what is God saying not just what are the words. Hence it seems to me you are right in your last sentence
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Hugo
10-01-2009, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zakirs
^^ +1 , and i guess Islam is a universal religion with some emphasis given to arabic.But we should not also forget that there have been many other Prophets pbut sent to many tribes of humanity in many other languages.So i guess no language is superior over other.(may Allah pardon me if i am wrong)
I don't think you are wrong - a limitless God cannot be limited by the bounds of one language or one time that would be to make God the measure of our own puny minds
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Danah
10-01-2009, 08:54 PM
yes I think I understood what you said but my point still seems to be valid unless you meant that at the time of the prophet it had to be in Arabic.
Exactly, if you read my quote in my second post you will get what I meant. Since the Arabic was the language of the prophet and the people that time it had to be in Arabic. How can an Arab an illiterate prophet deal with Arab people if the holy book was revealed to him in another language.


Hugo - I am not sure what you are saying, they are not in the 21 centenary everyday words because they were written 14 centuries ago so yes they would be a challenge today and that is why I and Uthman mentioned lexicons. They had to be everyday words back then else no one would have understood them at the time.
It was not even the everyday language at that time before 1400 years. I mentioned already that it was a challenge to the most eloquent Arabs tribes there, but even though, it was way higher than their abilities, they couldn't match with Quran.
Do you think that Allah will challenge people with their daily language?

as I said before, they couldn't come up with one verse when Allah challenged them in Quran!

Hugo - there is no more variety in Bible translations than one would find in translations of the Qu'ran and I think you are overstating the point. Translations are made one hopes by scholars or Herbrew and Greek
Even if I agree with you "when I am not" that there are many translations, but the original source is still there! so no two can argue over one word.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I absolutely agree with you but it is not an argument that would say we should never make translations because that would condemn that vast majority of people to have no scriptures at all - do you not agree?
Sure, there must be translations of any holy books. But they have to be "accurate" in translation rather than adding/deleting/changing in the words or meaning.
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al Iskander
10-01-2009, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Non-Arabs can adopt Arab culture.
That's right , but these people had nothing Arabic in their manners . They were Muslims simply .

In other words that the Christianity is a Jewish religion because the first Christians were jewish .

Don't forget the original message of the Evangile was in Aramaic . It's regrettably lost , but we are lucky to have the original of the Koran in Arabic wich is a nearly language .

Friendly .
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gmaall
10-01-2009, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
It is the muslim international language. All muslims should try to learn arabic so they can understand Quran, hadith, & great islamic books for themselves! Although many books have been translated into other languages, still translation is usually not the same as the work in its original language.
your honest answers are very admirable.

imagine you are in a relationship with your mother, father, siblings, your best friends, lovers and neighbours, and every person you know since you are good person and every1 likes you. how difficult would this be if you speak different language. with every1 one of them.

and expand this and say you have Japanese good friend and you convert them into Islam.
do you say to him praise god and love god. and do this in your mother language. or ask him you need to learn arabic to pray and read quran.
so in the end every muslim have to learn arabic for better.

hince the point Islam is an Arabic religion.

god bless.
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GreyKode
10-01-2009, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gmaall
your honest answers are very admirable.

hehehe, that's the only post that you could address, you recevied several responses to your previous points and you don't even care to address them

imagine you are in a relationship with your mother, father, siblings, your best friends, lovers and neighbours, and every person you know since you are good person and every1 likes you. how difficult would this be if you speak different language. with every1 one of them.

and expand this and say you have Japanese good friend and you convert them into Islam.
do you say to him praise god and love god. and do this in your mother language. or ask him you need to learn arabic to pray and read quran.
so in the end every muslim have to learn arabic for better.

I really didn't get what youre trying to say here

hince the point Islam is an Arabic religion.

god bless.
*.....filler....*
Reply

gmaall
10-02-2009, 01:56 AM
Greykode

I do not think trading any insults with you is profitable to me or you and anyone else. I am done with the above topic. I made my points.


Gospel of John ,
10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.


Bukhari vol.3 book 46 no.717 p.431-432. "the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as Captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day.
Reply

kawaiigardiner
10-02-2009, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
Why is english the international language? why is it that in airports, airlines, etc all over the world staff speak their native language as well as english? Why do ppl all over the world try to learn english as well as their native language? So that the world can have a common language to communicate in. The same is the case with arabic for the Muslims. It is the muslim international language. All muslims should try to learn arabic so they can understand Quran, hadith, & great islamic books for themselves! Although many books have been translated into other languages, still translation is usually not the same as the work in its original language.
You might as well make the same thing about Christianity; that Latin should become the international language given that it used to be the lingua franca of international diplomacy and intellectual debate.

Considering how vague Arabic is to transmit even the most basic of ideas I'd sooner see English become an international language due to the ability to transmit an exact piece of information with no ambiguity or excuses relating to 'interpretation' which gets thrown around about Arabic.
Reply

جوري
10-02-2009, 03:31 AM
what a couple of bumpkins with doctored up crap as it is certainly the 'perk' of the common language,-- commonality brings out vulgarity and common myths becomes common place, common knowledge-- common practice to the herd!.. how else would a god be born of the 'seed of man', and die and have the epistle of god's brother censored by the church for an expose of the ignorant who'd rather persist in folly than give up the charade. And for some reason believe that taking snippets of their very questionable book which doesn't seem to hold its value against its self to assert equally comical claims about other religions? Why spend so much of your time obsessed with other religions, is it that after your god died having eaten you sin and you danced before his effigies you find yourself empty for what next to do? ..
But it is strange indeed to allege that Islam is a religion of Arabs, and yet bring us vague ahadith in English undoubtedly bites the two of you in the a$$, if nothing else exposes you for the two hypocrites that you actually are!.

If you are not here to treat with contempt what are you here for? I think folks would rather be atheists of Janists than succumb to borrowed paganism that can't sustain itself against the most infantile of mythologies!

on Bani al-Mustaliq!

An-Nur (The Light)
Name
This Surah takes its name, An Nur, from verse 35.
Period of Revelation
The consensus of opinion is that it was sent down after the Campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq and this is confirmed by vv. 11-20 that deal with the incident of the "Slander", which occurred during that Campaign. But there is a difference of opinion as to whether this Campaign took place in 5 A. H. before the Battle of the Trench or in 6 A. H. after it. It is important to decide this issue in order to determine whether this Surah was sent down earlier or Surah Al- Ahzab(XXXIII), which is the only other Surah containing the Commandments about the observance of purdah by women. Surah Al-Ahzab was admittedly sent down on the occasion of the Battle of the Trench. Now if this Battle occurred earlier, it would mean that the initial instructions in connection with the Commandments of purdah were sent down in Surah Al-Ahzab? and they were complemented later by the Commandments revealed in this Surah. On the other hand, if the Campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq occurred earlier, the chronological order of the Commandments would be reversed, and it would become difficult to understand the legal wisdom and implications of the Commandments of purdah.
According to Ibn Sa'd, the Campaign against Bani al Mustaliq took place in Shaban 5 A. H. and the Battle of the Trench in Zil- Qa'dah the same year. This opinion is based on some traditions from Hadarat Ayesha about the events connected with the "Slander" in which she refers to a dispute between Hadrat Sa'd bin 'Ubadah and Sa'd bin Mu'az. Hadrat Sa'd bin Mu'az, according to authentic traditions, died during the Campaign against Bani Quraizah, which took place immediately after the Battle of the Trench. It is, therefore, evident that he could not be present in 6 A. H. to take part in a dispute about the "Slander".
On the other hand, Muhammad bin Ishaq says that the Battle of the Trench took place in Shawwal 5 A. H. and the Campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq in Sha'ban 6 A. H. This opinion is supported by many authentic traditions from Hadrat Ayesha and others. According to these traditions, (1) the Commandments about purdah had been sent down in Surah Al-Ahzab before the incident of the "Slander", (2) the Holy Prophet had married Hadrat Zainab in Zil-Qa'dah 5 A. H. after the Battle of the Trench, (3) Hamnah, sister of Hadrat Zainab, had taken a leading part in spreading the "Slander", just because Hadrat Ayesha was a rival of her sister. All this evidence supports the view of Muhammad bin Ishaq. Now let us consider the two opinions a little more closely. The only argument in favor of the first opinion is the mention of the presence of Hadrat Sa'd bin Mu'az in a dispute connected with the incident of the "Slander". But this argument is weakened by some other traditions from Hadrat Ayesha, in which she mentions Hadrat Usaid bin Hudair instead of Hadrat Sa'd bin Mu'az in this dispute. It may, therefore, be assumed that there has been some confusion regarding the two names in reporting the traditions. Moreover, if we accept the first opinion, just because of the mention of the name of Hadrat Sa'd bin Mu'az in some traditions, we encounter other difficulties that cannot be resolved in any way. For, in that case, we shall have to admit that the revelation of the Commandments of purdah and the Holy Prophet's marriage with Hadrat Zainab had taken place even earlier than the Battle of the Trench. But we learn from the Qur'an and many authentic traditions that both these events happened after that Battle and the Campaign against Bani Quraizah. That is why Ibn Hazm, Ibn Qayyim and some other eminent scholars have held the opinion of Muhammad bin Ishaq as correct, and we also hold it to be so. Thus, we conclude that Surah Al Ahzab was sent down earlier than Surah An-Nur, which was revealed in the latter half of 6 A. H. several months after Surah Al Ahzab.

Historical Background
Now let us review the circumstances existing at the time of the revelation of this surah. It should be kept in mind that the incident of the "Slander", which was the occasion of its revelation, was closely connected with the conflict between Islam and the disbelievers. After the victory at Badr, the Islamic movement began to gain strength day by day; so much so that by the time of the Battle of the Trench, it had become so strong that the united forces of the enemy numbering about ten thousand failed to crush it and had to raise the siege of Al Madinah after one month. It meant this, and both the parties understood it well, that the war of aggression which the Disbelievers had been waging for several years, had come to an end. The Holy Prophet himself declared: "After this year, the Quraish will not be able to attack you; now you will take the offensive."
When the disbelievers realized that they could not defeat Islam on the battlefield, they chose the moral front to carry on the conflict. It cannot be said with certainty whether this Change of tactics was the outcome of deliberate consultations, or it was the inevitable result of the humiliating retreat in the Battle of the Trench, for which all the available forces of the enemy had been concentrated:They knew it well that the rise of Islam was nor due to the numerical strength of the Muslims nor to their superior arms and ammunition nor to their greater material resources; nay, the Muslims were fighting against fearful odds on all these fronts. They owed their success to their moral superiority. Their enemies realized that the pure and noble qualities of the Holy Prophet and his followers were capturing the hearts of the people, and were also binding them together into a highly disciplined community. As a result of this, they were defeating the mushriks and the Jews both on the peace and on the war front, because the latter lacked discipline and character.
Under the above mentioned circumstances, the wicked designs of the disbelievers led them to start a campaign of vilification against the Holy Prophet and the Muslims in order to destroy the bulwark of morale that was helping them to defeat their enemies. Therefore the strategy was to attain the assistance of the hypocrites to spread slanders against the Holy Prophet and his followers so that the mushriks and the Jews could exploit these to sow the seeds of discord among the Muslims and undermine their discipline.
The first opportunity for the use of the new strategy was afforded in Zil-Qa'dah 5 A. H. when the Holy Prophet married Hadrat Zainab (daughter of Jahsh), who was the divorced wife of his adopted son, Zaid bin Harithah. The Holy Prophet had arranged this marriage in order to put an end to the custom of ignorance, which gave the same status to the adopted son that was the right only of the son from one's own loins. The hypocrites, however, considered it a golden opportunity to vilify the Holy Prophet from inside the community, and the Jews and the mushriks exploited it from outside to ruin his high reputation by this malicious slander. For this purpose fantastic stories were concocted and spread to this effect: "One day Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him) happened to see the wife of his adopted son and fell in love with her; he maneuvered her divorce and married her." Though this was an absurd fiction it was spread with such skill, cunning and artfulness that it succeeded in its purpose; so much so that some Muslim tradtionalist and commentators also have cited some parts of it in their writings, and the orientalists have exploited these fully to vilify the Holy Prophet. As a matter of fact, Hadrat Zainab was never a stranger to the Holy Prophet that he should see her by chance and fall in love with her at first sight. For she was his first cousin, being the daughter of his real paternal aunt, Umaimah, daughter of Abdul Muttalib. He had known her from her childhood to her youth. A year before this incident, he himself had persuaded her against her will to marry Hadarat Zaid in order to demonstrate practically that the Quraish and the liberated slaves were equal as human being. As she never reconciled herself to her marriage with a liberated slave, they could not pull on together for long, which inevitably led to her divorce. The above mentioned facts were well known to all, yet the slanderers succeeded in their false propaganda with the result that even today there are people who exploit these things to defame Islam.
The second slander was made on the honor of Hadrat Ayesha, a wife of the Holy Prophet, in connection with an incident which occurred while he was returning from the Campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq. As this attack was even severer than the first one and was the main background of this Surah, we shall deal with it in greater detail. Let us say a few words about Abdullah bin Ubayy, who played the part of a villain in this attack. He belonged to the clan of Khazraj and was one of the most important chiefs of Al-Madinah. The people had even intended to make him their king a little before the Holy Prophet's migration there, but the scheme had to be dropped because of the changed circumstances. Though he had embraced Islam, he remained at heart a hypocrite and his hypocrisy was so manifest that he was called the "Chief of the Hypocrites". He never lost any opportunity to slander Islam in order to take his revenge.
Now the main theme. When in Sha'ban 6 A. H. the Holy Prophet learned that the people of Bani al-Mustaliq were making preparations for a war against the Muslims and were trying to muster other clans also for this purpose, he fore- stalled and took the enemy by surprise. After capturing the people of the clan and their belongings, the Holy Prophet made a halt near Muraisi, a spring in their territory. One day a dispute concerning taking water from the spring started between a servant of Hadrat Umar and an ally of the clan of Khazraj, and developed into a quarrel between the Muhajirs(immigrants) and the Ansar(Muslims of Madinah), but was soon settled. This, however, did not suit the strategy of Abdullah bin Ubayy, who also had joined the expedition with a large number of hypocrites. So he began to incite the Ansar, saying, "You yourselves brought these people of the quraish from Makkah and made them partners in your wealth and property. And now they have become your rivals and want domination over you. If even now you withdraw your support from them, they shall be forced to leave your city." Then he swore and declared, "As soon as we reach back Al-Madinah, the respectable people will turn out the degraded people from the city."
When the Holy Prophet came to know of this, he ordered the people to set off immediately and march back to Al-Madinah. The forced march continued up to noon the next day without a halt on the way so that the people became exhausted and had no time for idle talk.
Though this wise judgment and quick action by the Holy Prophet averted the undesirable consequences of the mischief, Abdullah bin Ubayy got another opportunity for doing a far more serious and greater mischief, i. e. by engineering a "Slander" against Hadrat Ayesha, for that was a mischief which might well have involved the young Muslim Community in a civil war, if the Holy Prophet and his sincere and devoted followers had not shown wisdom, forbearance and marvelous discipline in dealing with it. In order to understand the events that led to the incident of the "Slander", we cite the story in Hadrat 'Ayesha's own words. She says :
"Whenever the Holy Prophet went out on a journey, he decided by lots as to which of his wives should accompany him. Accordingly, it was decided that I should accompany him during the expedition to Bani al Mustaliq. On the return journey, the Holy Prophet halted for the night at a place which was the last stage on the way back to Al- Madinah. It was still night, when they began to make preparations for the march. So I went outside the camp to ease myself. When I returned and came near my halting place, I noticed that my necklace had fallen down somewhere. I went back in search for it but in the meantime the caravan moved off and I was left behind all alone. The four carriers of the litter had placed it on my camel without noticing that it was empty. This happened because of my light weight due to lack of food in those days. I wrapped myself in my sheet and lay down in the hope that when it would be found that I had been left behind, a search party would come back to pick me up. In the meantime I fell asleep. In the morning, when Safwan bin Mu'attal Sulami passed that way, he saw me and recognized me for he had seen me several times before the Commandment about purdah had been sent down. No sooner did he see me than he stopped his camel and cried out spontaneously : "How sad! The wife of the Holy Prophet has been left here!" At this I woke up all of a sudden and covered my face with my sheet. Without uttering another word, he made his camel kneel by me and stood aside, while I climbed on to the camel back. He led the camel by the nose-string and we overtook the caravan at about noon, when it had just halted and nobody had yet noticed that I had been left behind. I learnt afterwards that this incident had been used to slander me and Abdullah bin Ubayy was foremost among the slanderers.(According to other traditions, when Hadrat Ayesha reached the camp on the camel, led by Safwan, and it was known that she had been left behind, Abdullah bin Ubayy cried out, 'By God, she could not have remained chaste. Look, there comes the wife of your Prophet openly on the camel led by the person with whom she passed the night.')
"When I reached Al-Madinah, I fell ill and stayed in bed for more than a month. Though I was quite unaware of it, the news of the "Slander" was spreading like a scandal in the city, and had also reached the Holy Prophet. Anyhow, I noticed that he did not seem as concerned about my illness he used to be. He would come but without addressing me directly, would inquire from others how I was and leave the house. Therefore it troubled my mind that something had gone wrong somewhere. So I took leave of him and went to my mother's house for better nursing.
"While I was there, one night I went out of the city to ease myself in the company of Mistah's mother, who was a first cousin of my mother. As she was walking along she stumbled over something and cried out spontaneously, 'May Mistah perish!' To this I retorted, 'What a good mother you are that you curse your own son -- the son who took part in the Battle of Badr.' She replied, 'My dear daughter, are you not aware of his scandal mongering?' Then she told me everything about the campalgn of the "Slander".(Besides the hypocrites, some true Muslims also had been involved in this campaign, and among them who took leading part in it, were Mistah, Hassan bin Thabit, the famous poet of Islam, and Hamnah, daughter of Jahsh and sister of Hadrat Zainab). Hearing this horrible story, my blood curdled, and I immediately returned home, and passed the rest of the night in crying over it. "During my absence the Holy Prophet took counsel with Ali and Usamah bin Zaid about this matter. Usamah said good words about me to this effect:'O Messenger of Allah, we have found nothing but good in your wife. All that is being spread about her is a lie and calumny.' As regards Ali, he said, 'O Messenger of Allah, there is no dearth of women; you may, if you like, marry an other wife. If, how- ever, you would like to investigate into the matter, you may send for her maid servant and enquire into it through her.' Accordingly, the maid servant was sent for and questioned. She replied, 'I declare on an oath by Allah, Who has sent you with the Truth, that I have never seen any evil thing in her, except that she falls asleep when I tell her to look after the kneaded dough in my absence and a goat comes and eats it.'
"On that same day the Holy Prophet addressed the people from the pulpit, saying:'O Muslims, who from among you will defend my honor against the attacker of the person who has transgressed all bounds in doing harm to me by slandering my wife. By God, I have made a thorough enquiry and found nothing wrong with her nor with the man, whose name has been linked with the "Slander". At this Usaid bin Hudair (or Sa'd bin Mauz) according to other traditions) stood up and said, 'O Messenger of Allah, if that person belongs to our clan, we will kill him by ourselves, but if he belongs to the Khazraj clan, we will kill him if you order us to do so.' Hearing this Sa'd bin 'Ubadah,2 chief of the Khazraj clan, stood up and said, 'You lie you can never kill him. You are saying this just because the person belongs to our clan of Khazraj. Had he belonged to your clan, you would never have said so.' Hadrat Usaid retorted, 'You are a hypocrite: that is why you are defending a hypocrite.' At this, there was a general turmoil in the mosque, which would have developed into a riot, even though the Holy Prophet was present there the whole time. But he cooled down their anger and came down from the pulpit."
The remaining details of the incident will be cited along with our commentary on the Text, which honorably absolved Hadrat Aishah from the blame. But here we would only want to point out the enormity of the mischief that was engineered by Abdullah bin Ubayy: (1) It implied an attack on the honour of the Holy Prophet and Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddiq.(2) He meant to undermine the high moral superiority which was the greatest asset of the Islamic Movement (3) He intended to ignite civil war between the Muhajirs and the Ansar, and between Aus and Khazraj, the two clans of the Ansar.

Theme and Topics
This Surah and vv. 28-73 of Surah Al-Ahzab(of which this is the sequel) were sent down to strengthen the moral front, which at that time was the main target of the attack, vv. 28-73 of Al-Ahzab were sent down concerning the Holy Prophet's marriage with Hadrat Zainab, and on the occasion of the second attack (the "Slander" about Hadrat Aishah), Surah An-Nur was sent down to repair the cracks that had appeared in the unity of the Muslim Community. If we keep this in view during the study of the two Surahs, we shall understand the wisdom that underlies the Commandments about purdah. Allah sent the following instructions to strengthen and safeguard the moral front, and to counteract the storm of propaganda that was raised on the occasion of the marriage of Hazrat Zainab:

  1. The wives of the Holy Prophet were enjoined to remain within their private quarters, to avoid display of adornments and to be cautious in their talk with other persons (vv. 32, 33).
  2. The other Muslims were forbidden to enter the private rooms of the Holy Prophet and instructed to ask whatever they wanted from behind the curtain.(v. 53).
  3. A line of demarcation was drawn between the mahram and the non-mahram relatives. Only the former were allowed to enter the private rooms of those wives of the Holy Prophet with whom they were so closely related as to prohibit marriage with them.(v. 55).
  4. The Muslims were told that the wives of the Prophet were prohibited for them just like their own real mothers; therefore every Muslim should regard them with the purest of intentions.(vv. 53, 54).
  5. The Muslims were warned that they would invite the curse and scourge of Allah if they offended the Holy Prophet. Likewise it was a heinous sin to attack the honor of or slander any Muslim man or woman.(vv. 57, 58).
  6. All the Muslim women were enjoined to cover their faces with their sheets if and when they had to go out of their houses.(v. 59).

On the occasion of the second attack, this Surah was sent down to keep pure and strengthen the moral fiber of the Muslim society, which had been shaken by the enormity of the slander. We give below a summary of the Commandments and instructions in their chronological order so that one may understand how the Qur'an makes use of the psychological occasion to reform the Community by the adoption of legal, moral and social measures.

  1. Fornication which had already been declared to be a social crime (IV: 15,16) was now made a criminal offense and was to be punished with a hundred lashes.
  2. It was enjoined to boycott the adulterous men and women and the Muslims were forbidden to have any marriage relations with them.
  3. The one, who accused the other of adultery but failed to produce four witnesses, was to be punished with eighty lashes.
  4. The Law of Li'an was prescribed to decide the charge of adultery against his own fife by a husband.
  5. The Muslims were enjoined to learn a lesson from the incident of the "Slander" about Hadrat Aishah, as if to say, "You should be very cautious in regard to charges of adultery against the people of good reputation, and should not spread these; nay, you should refute and suppress them immediately." In this connection, a general principle was enunciated that the proper spouse for a pure man is a pure woman, for he cannot pull on with a wicked woman for long, and the same is the case with a pure woman, as if to say, "When you knew that the Holy Prophet was a pure man, nay, the purest of all human beings, how could you believe that he had experienced happiness with a wicked woman and exalted her as the most beloved of his wives? For it was obvious that an adulterous woman could not have been able to deceive, with her affected behavior, a pure man like the Holy Prophet. You ought also to have considered the fact that the accuser was a mean person while the accused was a pure woman. This should have been enough to convince you that the accusation was not worth your consideration; nay, it was not even conceivable.
  6. Those who spread news and evil rumours and propagate wickedness in the Muslim Community, deserve punishment and not encouragement.
  7. A general principle was laid down that relations in the Muslim Community should be based on good faith and not on suspicion: everyone should be treated as innocent unless he is proved to be guilty and vice versa.
  8. The people were forbidden to enter the houses of others unceremoniously and were instructed to take permission for this.
  9. Both men and women were instructed to lower their gaze and forbidden to cast glances or make eyes at each other.
  10. Women were enjoined to cover their heads and breasts even inside their houses.
  11. Women were forbidden to appear with make-up before other men except their servants or such relatives with whom their marriage is prohibited.
  12. They were enjoined to hide their make-ups when they went out of their houses, and even forbidden to put on jingling ornaments, while they moved out of their houses.
  13. Marriage was encouraged and enjoined even for slaves and slave girls, for unmarried people help spread indecency.
  14. The institution of slavery was discouraged and the owners and other people were enjoined to give financial help to the slaves to earn their freedom under the law of Mukatabat.
  15. Prostitution by slave girls was forbidden in the first instance, for prostitution in Arabia was confined to this class alone. This in fact implied the legal prohibition of prostitution.
  16. Sanctity of privacy in home life was enjoined even for servants and under age children including one's own. They were enjoined not to enter the private rooms of any man or woman without permission; especially in the morning, at noon and at night.
  17. Old women were given the concession that they could set aside their head covers within their houses but should refrain from display of adornments. Even they were told that it was better for them to keep themselves covered with head wrappers.
  18. The blind, lame, crippled and sick persons were allowed to take any article of food from the houses of other people without permission, for it was not to be treated like theft and cheating, which are cognizable offenses.
  19. On the other hand, the Muslims were encouraged to develop mutual relationships by taking their meals together, and the nearest relatives and intimate friends were allowed to take their meals in each other's house without any formal invitation. This was to produce mutual affection and sincere relationships between them to counteract any future mischief. Side by side with these instructions, clear signs of the Believers and the hypocrites were stated to enable every Muslim to discriminate between the two. At the same time the Community was bound together by adopting disciplinary measures in order to make it stronger and firmer than it was at the time so as to discourage the enemies from creating mischief in it.

Above all, the most conspicuous thing about this discourse is that it is free from the bitterness which inevitably follows such shameful and absurd attacks. Instead of showing any wrath at this provocation, the discourse prescribes some laws and regulations and enjoins reformative commandments and issues wise instructions that were required at the time for the education and training of the Community. Incidentally, this teaches us how to deal with such provocative mischiefs coolly, wisely and generously. At the same time, it is a clear proof that this is not the word of Prophet Muhammad (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) but of a Being Who is observing all human conditions and affairs from the highest level, and guiding mankind without any personal prejudices, feelings and leanings. Had this been the word of the Holy Prophet; there would have been at least some tinge of natural bitterness in spite of his great generosity and forbearance, for it is but human that a noble man naturally become enraged when his own honor is attacked in this mean manner.
(Introduction By: Syed Abu Al-Ala Al-Maududi)
http://www.islamonline.net/surah/eng...sp?hSurahID=46
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by al Iskander
That's right , but these people had nothing Arabic in their manners . They were Muslims simply.
But the Sunnah is Arabic, and so those who adopt the sunnah way of doing things, adopt in some part a piece of Arab culture.

In other words that the Christianity is a Jewish religion because the first Christians were jewish.
The difference is Christians do not try to adopt the culture of 1st century Jews living in Judea. Within the lives of the Apostles the issue arose of what to do with Gentiles who accepted Christianity. Should they be circumcised and adopt Mosaic law? The answer was no. Gentiles had to abandon some practices, but they did not have to abandon their culture.

Don't forget the original message of the Evangile was in Aramaic . It's regrettably lost , but we are lucky to have the original of the Koran in Arabic wich is a nearly language .
Actually most, if not all, of the NT was originally written in Greek.
Reply

Rasema
10-03-2009, 10:44 PM
:sl:
It doesn't matter what 'culture' we adapt. The importance is that we all love eachother in the name of Allah. And that 'culture' causes unity among us, through Allah's will.
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جوري
10-03-2009, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
But the Sunnah is Arabic, and so those who adopt the sunnah way of doing things, adopt in some part a piece of Arab culture.
the point being?
The difference is Christians do not try to adopt the culture of 1st century Jews living in Judea. Within the lives of the Apostles the issue arose of what to do with Gentiles who accepted Christianity. Should they be circumcised and adopt Mosaic law? The answer was no. Gentiles had to abandon some practices, but they did not have to abandon their culture.
Perhaps that is another sore point on why your religion seems to only have a strong hold with paganists? as it is far removed from monotheism and the laws of Moses?


Actually most, if not all, of the NT was originally written in Greek.
Another sad fact, your questionable book, wasn't written in the language of your god.. how can it maintain its integrity?
when does rabb hatha albyet start becoming god instead of head of a household or instance?

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Another sad fact, your questionable book, wasn't written in the language of your god.. how can it maintain its integrity?
when does rabb hatha albyet start becoming god instead of head of a household or instance?
First you have to understand that Christianity is not a religion of the book, and that Jesus did not bring a kitab. The Gospel, or good news, is the redemption of mankind through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself never wrote a kitab, nor did He command one written. It was rather the Holy Spirit who moved the Apostles and disciples to begin documenting the life of Christ, and other important writings.

As for how it maintains its integrity, I guess the question is why would it have to be in Aramaic? The point is the substance of Jesus message is preserved, and it was done so by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles and their disciples.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
First you have to understand that Christianity is not a religion of the book, and that Jesus did not bring a kitab. The Gospel, or good news, is the redemption of mankind through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself never wrote a kitab, nor did He command one written. It was rather the Holy Spirit who moved the Apostles and disciples to begin documenting the life of Christ, and other important writings.
That is something that makes sense only to you as is instructed by the whims of your forefathers who not agree on content as we see different passages around the same event in the different books, but can't agree as denominations either, how many sects do you have, all deeming the other heretics. I mean you are certainly welcome to your beliefs.. it is as far as your understanding is concerned and no one else's

As for how it maintains its integrity, I guess the question is why would it have to be in Aramaic? The point is the substance of Jesus message is preserved, and it was done so by the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles and their disciples.
If it were preserved, you wouldn't have so many contradictions and internal errors. your whole religion wouldn't be centered around one theme and that is the 'death of god' rather than how to worship and approach your day to day living.

What is the point of life if yours sins are paid for in advance? and how hypocritical your god if he'd forgo the kind deeds and good work of those who slave day and night for the mere fact that they didn't believe he died that fateful day?
in fact what is the point at all of his descent to earth? what is the point of impregnating a woman with his person, after annunciation again of himself to the same woman, what is the point of living like a pauper and then ****ing the earth he allegedly created? what is the point that he should spend the night in prayer? what is the point in him asking himself of why he allegedly was about to forsake himself? what is the point that he couldn't defend himself against a bunch of human jews that he allegedly created? what is the point of his death, what is the point in his being in Nazareth or beyt lahem or wherever else in the middle east, who was governing the affairs of the universe while he was in the womb as a child? and who managed the same affairs when he was dead? and if the other two gods managed said affairs then how do you reconcile that with the concept of monotheism and anything else at all brought by his predecessors? Do you ever think about your religion? or it is all just belief? and if it is just belief then on what basis exactly do you expect others to subscribe to it? because of your dreams? because 'Mark' and 'Luke' said so?

give me a break mac!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
That is something that makes sense only to you as is instructed by the whims of your forefathers...
So you think Jesus brought a kitab that was meant to be passed down the way the Quran was passed down?

The rest of your post was another one of your angry diatribes...

wa salaam
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جوري
10-03-2009, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
So you think Jesus brought a kitab that was meant to be passed down the way the Quran was passed down?

The rest of your post was another one of your angry diatribes...

wa salaam
He brought the injil, and the message of it was for the Jews who fell astray.
the rest are really simple questions, that anyone naturally ponders if you don't want to address them, that is fine.. I suppose they have no logical explanation!

all the best
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Grace Seeker
10-04-2009, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Actually most, if not all, of the NT was originally written in Greek.
True, but it is still pretty obvious that the culture behind it was Jewish. Even to fully understand Paul, who is often accused of being so against Judiasm and pro-Greek, when you read his letters written in Greek to Greek speaking Christians living in Greece requires a great deal of familiarity with the Hebrew Tanakh and that one approach his propositional truths by \adopting a semetic way of thinking.

And still, I don't see anyone suggesting that Christianity is less than a universal religion. This despite the fact that some missionaries (especially those from 18th century Europe) often did as much exporting of their own particular culture as they did sharing of the Gospel in their missionary efforts. Another example of that is the American missionary in Hawaii in the 19th century. So, inspite of (certainly not because of) their culturally influenced versions of Christianity, th appeal of the Christian gospel has not been that of a Hebrew, or Greek, or Latin, or any other cultures religion. It is about Jesus.

I think the same can be said of Islam. Yes, there is a great deal that Arabic in form, but the content is not about Arab culture, it is about God. That the Arabic word Allah is used doesn't make it an Arabic religion. I notice that the strange stares of people at the local mall directed at Muslims dressed in strict keeping with their understanding of what is proper is no different the stare received by the Amish. They stand out because they don't melt into the background of the culture, but that would simply mean that the culture of the mall is not Islamic, not that Islam is Arabic. These same Muslim that I know are every bit as American in their worldview as their mall-blending neighbors. They are upset 8 years later about 9/11 and see it as an attack on their country. They don't trust Iran with nuclear power. And they vote and don't vote in elections about on par with their non-Islamic neighbors. Some of them speak Arabic in their homes, but more of them speak Malay or Urdu or English as their first language. And when you accept the invitation to join them for the feast at the end of Ramadan, you can be sure that there never was a table filled with as many different good foods from around the world. This is even more so than at a potluck at my church. My church potluck might have German potato salad, Swedeish meatballs, and Hungarian goulash. But you'll notice it's still all European in origin. At a feast at the local Islamic center, the food is true from all over the globe as is the dress of those who attend.

So, in my opinion, while Islam may have begun as an Arabic religion, it is so no more. It is in international experience to be part of the Ummah.
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Caller الداعي
10-21-2009, 11:39 AM
islam is not an arab religion but an international religion . being revelead in the arab lands doesnt not make it for the arabs i mean this is a general law anything whichis established in a country in that language doesnt make it for them only e.g. like HUMAN RIGHTS doesnt mean its only for geneva and only for those who speak english!!!
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Hugo
10-21-2009, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by caller
islam is not an arab religion but an international religion . being revelead in the arab lands doesnt not make it for the arabs i mean this is a general law anything whichis established in a country in that language doesnt make it for them only e.g. like HUMAN RIGHTS doesnt mean its only for geneva and only for those who speak english!!!
I see your point but why does Islam in practise hang on to so much that is Arab such as people changing their names to Arab ones, using Arab dress, the Arabic language etc since these things do not make it look international do they?
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ardianto
10-21-2009, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I see your point but why does Islam in practise hang on to so much that is Arab such as people changing their names to Arab ones, using Arab dress, the Arabic language etc since these things do not make it look international do they?
Why people changing their names to Arab ones ?.

Do you mean Muslim convert ?. Because they like it.
Using Arab name is not obligated. Muslim converts can use their old name, or use Arab name, or use non-Arabic new name.
In example, there is a Muslim who often gives da'wah in Indonesian television. He was Scottish, and after he converted to Islam he use an Indonesian name, Wahyu Soeparno Putro. Actually, no one forced him to change his name, but he decided to change his name into Indonesian name because he love Indonesia.


Why people using Arab dress ?

Muslims have a right to wear Arab dress or wear other culture dress. I never worn Arab dress. South East Asian Muslim have their own Islamic dress that
different than Arab dress.


Speak and learn Arabic language ?

Many Muslims speak in non-Arabic language.
Learn Arabic language is not obligated, Muslim are allowed to learn other language without learn Arabic. And if I want to learn Arabic language that because I want to know what my Arab brothers say.



Every non-Arab Muslim has a right, adopt Arab culture or not adopt Arab culture. I decided to not adopt Arab culture because Islam is not only for Arab.
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Hugo
10-22-2009, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Why people changing their names to Arab ones ?.

Do you mean Muslim convert ?. Because they like it.
Using Arab name is not obligated. Muslim converts can use their old name, or use Arab name, or use non-Arabic new name.
In example, there is a Muslim who often gives da'wah in Indonesian television. He was Scottish, and after he converted to Islam he use an Indonesian name, Wahyu Soeparno Putro. Actually, no one forced him to change his name, but he decided to change his name into Indonesian name because he love Indonesia.

Why people using Arab dress ?
Muslims have a right to wear Arab dress or wear other culture dress. I never worn Arab dress. South East Asian Muslim have their own Islamic dress that
different than Arab dress.

Speak and learn Arabic language ?
Many Muslims speak in non-Arabic language.
Learn Arabic language is not obligated, Muslim are allowed to learn other language without learn Arabic. And if I want to learn Arabic language that because I want to know what my Arab brothers say.

Every non-Arab Muslim has a right, adopt Arab culture or not adopt Arab culture. I decided to not adopt Arab culture because Islam is not only for Arab.
I think if I may say so you have not understood what was asked or what I said. The thread is about perceptions, is Islam perceived as an Arab religion. That has nothing whatever to do with personal choice and you or any one may dress more or less as they please - although in many Muslim countries there would at least for women be little choice.

God could one supposes have caused revelations to occur anywhere to any people. So suppose there had been revelations to North American Indians instead of to the Arabs do you suppose that Muslim and Muslim converts would be naming themselves and their children Sitting Bull, Moose, Big Foot or Hiawatha and wearing North American Indian dress and feathers?

If Prophet Mohammed were born to day in say New York how would he dress and what would be his likely name?
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ardianto
10-22-2009, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I think if I may say so you have not understood what was asked or what I said. The thread is about perceptions, is Islam perceived as an Arab religion. That has nothing whatever to do with personal choice and you or any one may dress more or less as they please - although in many Muslim countries there would at least for women be little choice.
Muslims are suggested to follow prophet Muhammad Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasalam. But some Muslims thinking it including follow his dress, how he ate, etc. Because he was lived in Arab culture, these Muslims also adopt Arab culture.
Muslims are also suggested to give names of Sahabaah to their children. And because Sahabaah were Arabs, of course those names are Arab names.
This causing a wrong perception, Islam is Arab religion.

God could one supposes have caused revelations to occur anywhere to any people. So suppose there had been revelations to North American Indians instead of to the Arabs do you suppose that Muslim and Muslim converts would be naming themselves and their children Sitting Bull, Moose, Big Foot or Hiawatha and wearing North American Indian dress and feathers?
Wearing Native American dress and feather is not a problem for Muslim men, but Muslim women need a little modification to their native American dress and must covering their hairs with hijab.
Native Americans can named their children with their typically names, but need a little change in their tradition. Usually, a moment after their children born, a Native American dad looked around and named their children like something that they saw first. But now, they can named their children like something that they saw second or third. This is for prevent them give a strange name like Smiling Dog, or Wrecked Car.

If Prophet Mohammed were born to day in say New York how would he dress and what would be his likely name?
This is IF, okay ?
He dressed like New Yorker, but I can't imagine his name.
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Muslim Woman
10-22-2009, 03:22 PM
:wa:

format_quote Originally Posted by arabianprincess
salam wa 3lykom

..“Islam an “Arab” religion.” Do you agree or disagree? .
Julia - United States

Title Is Islam a Religion for Arabs Only?


*{We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.}* (Al-Anbiyaa' 21:107)
*{We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to mankind, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not.}*(Saba' 34:28)
*{Say: "O mankind! I am sent unto you all, as the Apostle of God, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."}*(Al-A`raf 7:158)
*{Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;}*(Al-Furqan 25:1)


..

Useful Links:
Teenage White American and Muslim?
The Spread of Islam in Persia


http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE
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GuestFellow
10-22-2009, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
the Arabic language
Well the Arabic language cannot be altered into a different meaning. For example Allah and God. Both have the same meaning but God can be changed into Goddess meaning God is a female or God's meaning more than one God. Allah just means God and only one God...an Arabic student told me this. This is why Muslims try to learn and read the Quran in Arabic. Meaning cannot be altered...unless if taken out of context.
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Woodrow
10-22-2009, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I see your point but why does Islam in practise hang on to so much that is Arab such as people changing their names to Arab ones, using Arab dress, the Arabic language etc since these things do not make it look international do they?
Very few Muslims wear Arabic clothing. The most common clothing styles worn by Muslims can best be described as Pakistani, Bengali or Indonesian.

From what I understand a Muslims name only has to be Islamic. Not necessarily Arabic. Although I took a new name when I reverted I have been told by several scholars that there was no need to as the name Woodrow has an acceptable meaning.

It should also be noted that not all Arabic names are Islamic as not all Arabs are Muslim and some Arabic names have non-Islamic meanings. When one chooses an Arbic name it should be chosen with care.
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Danah
10-22-2009, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It should also be noted that not all Arabic names are Islamic as not all Arabs are Muslim and some Arabic names have non-Islamic meanings. When one chooses an Arbic name it should be chosen with care.
^ second that.

I can give a list of Arab names non-islamic meanings.
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GreyKode
10-22-2009, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Danah
^ second that.

I can give a list of Arab names non-islamic meanings.
If I might add here,

"Abdullah" which is probably one of the most common muslim names is quite common amongst christian arabs as well.

But then again, here in egypt arab christians prefer to name themselves with western/roman names, why don't they name themselves arab names?

Most (if not all) of christians that I know have the following names
Botros
Paulus
Michael
Mark
Gerges
Samuel

Now christians tell me, are not all those names western/non-arab?
Does that make chrisitianity a non-arab religion?
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Woodrow
10-22-2009, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
If I might add here,

"Abdullah" which is probably one of the most common muslim names is quite common amongst christian arabs as well.

But then again, here in egypt arab christians prefer to name themselves with western/roman names, why don't they name themselves arab names?

Most (if not all) of christians that I know have the following names
Botros
Paulus
Michael
Mark
Gerges
Samuel

Now christians tell me, are not all those names western/non-arab?
Does that make chrisitianity a non-arab religion?
At east one of those names is an Anglicized Arabic/Hebrew name. Michael is fro Mi'kail

Come to think of it many English names are Anglicized versions of the names of Prophets(PBUT) The non-Biblical names are usually a description of a persons work or what they desire to work as or where they live. My old English name of Woodrow has several meanings one being "Lives by the Forest"

Since Christianity was founded by Jews it seems the only genuine Christian names should be either Arabic or Hebrew.
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Hugo
10-22-2009, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
If I might add here,

"Abdullah" which is probably one of the most common muslim names is quite common amongst christian arabs as well.

But then again, here in egypt arab christians prefer to name themselves with western/roman names, why don't they name themselves arab names? Most (if not all) of christians that I know have the following names
Botros, Paulus, Michael, Mark, Gerges, Samuel

Now christians tell me, are not all those names western/non-arab?
Does that make chrisitianity a non-arab religion?
This thread is about the perception of Islam as an Arab religion. Parents choose names and they might do it for all sorts of reasons. Christians feel no obligation whatever to use Biblical names although many do but of course not all Biblical names would be suitable outside of Israel - who would want to call their child Mephibosheth or Ishbosheth for example. In my church a quick count shows me over 150 different first names and most are not Biblical ones: Nigel, Geraldine, Magda, Charlotte, Kevin, Maxine, Zoe, Merrielle and so on.

If Arab Christians prefer to use Western names that was I guess their parents choice or did you want to decide for them? In Western Society if a name is liked for whatever reason it is usually quickly assimilated, for example, Ali is used quite often and of course because Western Societies welcome people from almost everywhere we are all quite used to various names in our friends and neighbours. No one thinks they are letting the side down just because they like a names of a particular type and to think so is absurd.

I don't understand why say a Muslim convert whose given names was John Smith would want to change it and more than likely insult his parents and grandparents in so doing. In any case what useful purpose does it have? Ed Husain in his book "The Islamist" describes how he went to great length to dress in an Arab Islamic way and when he got to Syria he tells how they thought him some sort of idiot for such a pointless activity as far as faith was concerned.

I spend a lot of time in the Middle East and it is my impression that there Arabs dress as they do because that is how they feel comfortable - it has nothing much if anything to do with the devotion to Islam and when they come to London they dress in a Western way because that is how they feel most comfortable here - well part of it is practical as one might find it not very practical to use Arab dress at -5C on a cold Glasgow night. Westerners do not typically reciprocate but no one stops them if they wish to do that.

If you visit a church compound say in Abu Dhabi you will see Christians from every where and they often dress in their native ways and its a great sight to see such variety and colours in dress and manners. So no, only one thing defines what a Christian is and that is their belief in Jesus.
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Danah
10-22-2009, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
If I might add here,

"Abdullah" which is probably one of the most common muslim names is quite common amongst christian arabs as well.
yeah, come to think of it. Arab Christians and Jews called God: Allah. Even in the Arabic version of Bible they used Allah to refer to God
the right way "linguistically" to write the name is Abd-Allah like its written in Arabic....but since we combine it in pronunciation it comes as Abdullah.
the word Abd means the slave of
Allah: God
so its the slave of God
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GuestFellow
10-22-2009, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I don't understand why say a Muslim convert whose given names was John Smith would want to change it and more than likely insult his parents and grandparents in so doing.
I don't understand why changing a name would be an insult.
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Grace Seeker
10-23-2009, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I don't understand why changing a name would be an insult.
Yeah, there are plenty of other examples of people changing names from a whole host of cultures and religions:

Countless people change their name when they immigrate from one country to another in order to "fit" in their new land.

Abram, Sarai, and Jacob all had their names changed by God as an expression of their encounter with God.

Catholics today still receive a new name at the time of their confirmation. I had high school classmates who chose to use them as their new everyday name in place of the one they had been given at their birth and christening -- all with the blessing of their parents.

My son has gone through so many name changes (none to avoid the law or anyone), that sometimes I have actually had trouble keeping up with its present rendering.

And of course in Anglo cultures it is common for women to change their surname upon marriage, but in Hispanic cultures one keeps one's surname without changing it at the time of marriage. Some of my Hispanic friends think that for a woman to change her name is an insult to the family she was born in, but of course I don't think it is meant that way at all.

So, Hugo, just because you (or I) don't understand why a Muslim convert would want to change his name, that doesn't mean that we should project that it would necessarily be received as an insult to one's parents or grandparents.
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Hugo
10-23-2009, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Yeah, there are plenty of other examples of people changing names from a whole host of cultures and religions:

Countless people change their name when they immigrate from one country to another in order to "fit" in their new land.

Abram, Sarai, and Jacob all had their names changed by God as an expression of their encounter with God.

Catholics today still receive a new name at the time of their confirmation. I had high school classmates who chose to use them as their new everyday name in place of the one they had been given at their birth and christening -- all with the blessing of their parents.

My son has gone through so many name changes (none to avoid the law or anyone), that sometimes I have actually had trouble keeping up with its present rendering.

And of course in Anglo cultures it is common for women to change their surname upon marriage, but in Hispanic cultures one keeps one's surname without changing it at the time of marriage. Some of my Hispanic friends think that for a woman to change her name is an insult to the family she was born in, but of course I don't think it is meant that way at all.

So, Hugo, just because you (or I) don't understand why a Muslim convert would want to change his name, that doesn't mean that we should project that it would necessarily be received as an insult to one's parents or grandparents.
You may be right but my words were might be regarded as an insult to the family name.
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Grace Seeker
10-23-2009, 02:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You may be right but my words were might be regarded as an insult to the family name.
If I am to understand your use of the word "might" means that you weren't really saying that the family would be insulted, shall I also understand your use of the word "may" in saying that I "may be right" means that you really aren't saying that I am right?
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OurIslamic
10-23-2009, 03:00 PM
Islam isn't an arab religion..I'm Pakistani and I'm Muslim and follow Islam. I even made a website (http://www.OurIslamic.WebNode.com) to honor Islam and Allah (SWT)
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al Iskander
10-23-2009, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I don't understand why changing a name would be an insult.
:sl:

When I became muslim , people gived me a new name , Mustapha .

It is not an insult for my mother and she is calling me "Philippe" . In fact , I did'nt change my name , but Mustapha is a new name . :D

This is not an obligation in Islam to change the name , Arabic or not .

Iskander is a muslim name but not an Arabic name .;D

Be happy with Islam .

:sl:
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Hugo
10-23-2009, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If I am to understand your use of the word "might" means that you weren't really saying that the family would be insulted, shall I also understand your use of the word "may" in saying that I "may be right" means that you really aren't saying that I am right?
Does ".. aren't ...I am right" - you are wrong?

I just offered an opinion and I can be as wrong or right as anyone else. Thomas Paine once said:

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it the superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
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Bittersteel
10-24-2009, 07:31 AM
If Prophet Mohammed were born to day in say New York how would he dress and what would be his likely name?
New York didn't use to exist back then.Islam isn't perceived as an Arab religion but a lot of Muslims follow the Sunnah,traditions of the Prophet Mohammad(PBUH).
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GuestFellow
10-24-2009, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
If you visit a church compound say in Abu Dhabi you will see Christians from every where and they often dress in their native ways and its a great sight to see such variety and colours in dress and manners. So no, only one thing defines what a Christian is and that is their belief in Jesus.
If everyone dressed the same then that means they're equal in some sense. For example when Muslims go Hajj they wear the colour white only to symbolize that they're all equal.
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Hugo
10-24-2009, 11:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
If everyone dressed the same then that means they're equal in some sense. For example when Muslims go Hajj they wear the colour white only to symbolize that they're all equal.
Surely you are not advocating by this that everyone should look exactly alike all the time - what a really boring world that would be!
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GuestFellow
10-24-2009, 12:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Surely you are not advocating by this that everyone should look exactly alike all the time - what a really boring world that would be!
Nope. Just saying that in some aspects wearing something the same could symbolize equality. I did not suggest everyone should look the same all the time.
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Mujahideen92
10-24-2009, 12:07 PM
I disagree, Islam has the most diverse of races and origins. Simply, it is a human religion
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Woodrow
10-24-2009, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mujahideen92
I disagree, Islam has the most diverse of races and origins. Simply, it is a human religion

On a personal note.

Nearly all of the Arabs I know are not Muslim while virtually all of the Muslims I know are not Arab.

NOTE: This only applies regarding the people I know in the USA
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Grace Seeker
10-24-2009, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
On a personal note.

Nearly all of the Arabs I know are not Muslim while virtually all of the Muslims I know are not Arab.

NOTE: This only applies regarding the people I know in the USA

Funny, but now that you mention it, the same is true for me. None of the Muslims I have any sort of personal relationship are Arabs. Rather, they are from Turkey, Pakastan, India, Iran, Malaysia, and USA (and of either European or African ancestory). The one Arab I know well enough to claim a personal kinship with is from Egypt and while once a secular Muslim is now a devout Christian and has been for more than 30 years. His name is Omar; I've never asked him what it's origin is or its meaning.
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seeker-of-light
10-24-2009, 11:12 PM
islam is not a religion just meant for arabs, it is a religion that Allah has given to the entire world to live and follow by. there are many verses in the Quran that have already pointed this out in this thread, as well as Allah created all of humankind, so why would islam only be reserved for the arabs? i dont understand the logic behind that
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Hugo
10-25-2009, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Funny, but know that you mention it, the same is true for me. None of the Muslims I have any sort of personal relationship are Arabs. Rather, they are from Turkey, Pakastan, India, Iran, Malaysia, and USA (and of either European or African ancestory). The one Arab I know well enough to claim a personal kinship with is from Egypt and while once a secular Muslim is now a devout Christian and has been for more than 30 years. His name is Omar; I've never asked him what it's origin is or its meaning.
Funny in a way that we all have such different expediences as the Muslims I know are almost exclusively Arab but I guess that is primarily because I spend time in the Middle East.
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Woodrow
10-25-2009, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Funny in a way that we all have such different expediences as the Muslims I know are almost exclusively Arab but I guess that is primarily because I spend time in the Middle East.
When I lived in the Mideast that was true for me also. However here in the USA it is a different scenario.
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Mujahideen92
10-25-2009, 06:45 PM
I dont really know any Arab muslims, most are either white/black/indian/pakistani
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Alim Apprentice
10-31-2009, 09:27 PM
Well, actual statistics would back up the fact the Islam has diversity. A quick Wikipedia (I know, not the most authoritative source, but still a rough guide anyway) gives:

Country- % of world Muslim population
_________________________________
Asia Pacific- 61.9%
Middle East & North Africa- 20.1%
Sub Saharan Africa- 15.3%
Europe- 2.4%
Americas- 0.3%


Given that there are around 1.6 billion Muslims, even slight percentages are significant.

Thats for the stats. From personal experience, I've met Muslim brothers and sisters from all over the world (by virtue from studying in an International Islamic uni).
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Hugo
11-01-2009, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alim Apprentice
Well, actual statistics would back up the fact the Islam has diversity. A quick Wikipedia (I know, not the most authoritative source, but still a rough guide anyway) gives:

Country- % of world Muslim population
_________________________________
Asia Pacific- 61.9%
Middle East & North Africa- 20.1%
Sub Saharan Africa- 15.3%
Europe- 2.4%
Americas- 0.3%
Given that there are around 1.6 billion Muslims, even slight percentages are significant.

Thats for the stats. From personal experience, I've met Muslim brothers and sisters from all over the world (by virtue from studying in an International Islamic uni).
If one is going to use stats with your figures then Islam is an Asian religion and definitely not a European or an American one. I have met Christians from all over the world; Muslims from all over the world; and those with no religion at all from all over the world - just go to any British University or live in any British city.

The thread is asking is Islam distinctively Arab and I have seen nothing so far that indicates that it is not. I don't know if this makes it bad, good or indifferent it just to me a fact.
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Alim Apprentice
11-01-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
If one is going to use stats with your figures then Islam is an Asian religion and definitely not a European or an American one.
You are correct, it does seem to be skewed that way since Asia consists of 60% the world population.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
The thread is asking is Islam distinctively Arab and I have seen nothing so far that indicates that it is not. I don't know if this makes it bad, good or indifferent it just to me a fact.
Lets try to break it down. If the assumption is that "Arab" consists of regions in the Middle East and some northern African countries, then Islam is relatively dominant in these regions. But since we want to compare against other regions in absolute terms, a majority of Muslims are from countries not in this "arab" region.. and their cultures are quite diverse.

To put it into one perspective, the number of Muslims in China alone (who are minorities) is nearly equivalent to the total population of Saudi Arabia. I chose these two countries to that differ geographically, culturally and linguistically.

Therefore one conclusion is that Islam is not an Arab religion, rather a global religion with diversity amongst Muslims.

Its more profound than saying English is an international language, even if is only natively spoken by 27% of the world population and dominant in less than a dozen countries.
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Caller الداعي
11-01-2009, 05:32 PM
islam teaches:
*to follow Allahs commands
*to fulfill the rights of others
so wheres the arab in there????
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Supreme
11-01-2009, 08:43 PM
Islam is no more an Arab's religion than Christianity is a Jew's religion. Any religion that discriminates on the grounds of race is barbaric. Thankfully, very few religions are.
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Grace Seeker
11-02-2009, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
The thread is asking is Islam distinctively Arab and I have seen nothing so far that indicates that it is not. I don't know if this makes it bad, good or indifferent it just to me a fact.
I'm not trying to be an apologist for Islam, but I do see things differently than you do as far as this particular thread goes. As you noted yourself, the predominance of Muslims are not Arab. The posters to this very thread include people from Indonesia, Malaysia, the UK, Indiana, non-Arabs from the Middle East, and one Arab Princess. I myself told about the languages and foods that I experienced when attending a mosque in the USA as (in addition to of the dominant American culture) being largely representative of largely Pakistani and Indonesia and the races being dominated by Asians, Africans and Europeans -- but not Arabs. So, I don't know why you say that you don't see anything so far to indicate the Islam is anything other than distinctively Arab. Certainly none of that which I have mentioned is distinctively Arab.

So, if it isn't the people, the language, the food, or the culture of the community that is distinctively Arab, but you still consider Islam to be Arab, maybe we need to hear more from you as to what it is that makes it distinctively Arab, and you might begin by clarifying what you mean by distinctively. I'm wondering, once we see the measuring standard you are using for your determination of the distinctively Arab nature or character of Isalm, will Christianity still be a world religion, or might it be distinctively Western/European or perhaps even still a Semitic religion?
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Woodrow
11-02-2009, 12:50 AM
With the revelation of the Qur'an, the Arabic Culture was removed and replaced with Islam which is not limited by any National Culture.

Pre-Islamic Arabia was a vicious land with a barbaric culture in the time of Mhammad(PBUT) the polytheistic Arab culture was removed and Islam came to the hearts of the Arab people and replaced Arab culture.

Islam is not of Arabs it came for Arabs and all people.
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MT2
11-02-2009, 12:55 AM
Disagree since as a religion, Islam is not directed towards one group of people. Classifying all Arabs as Muslims is wrong since there are some Christian Arabs, such as the Coptic Egyptians, and Jewish Arabs. Categorized as a racial group, being Arab, just like being Hispanic, is not a mean of affiliation to any religious community. Similarly, considering all Muslims as Arabs is invalid. Islam does not distinguish between people or favor groups of people over others. It views everyone equally and is just in all matters.
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edinal
11-02-2009, 01:23 AM
Islam is all muslims religion...but the way Arbans behave is selfish from my point of view....most of arabic country are closed society and thta is what make me angrre...noone of us did not chose where will be born....when someone ask me who I m, first i will tell: I m muslim, after that i m bosnian, european, girl , white....God is not arabic privacy...
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Grace Seeker
11-02-2009, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MT2
Similarly, considering all Muslims as Arabs is invalid. Islam does not distinguish between people or favor groups of people over others. It views everyone equally and is just in all matters.
Yes, but I don't think that is where Hugo is coming from. I don't hear him suggesting that either all Arabs are Muslims nor that all Muslims are Arabs. He knows better. We all seem to know better than that. If I can speak for Hugo (who surely could speak better for himself that I can, but he just hasn't posted today), what I am hearing him suggest is that the values and many key aspects at the core of Islam have their roots in the culture of the Arab people. Just as in the same way I have heard people suggest that 18th and 19th century Christian missionaries didn't just teach Christianity, they also taught western ways wherever they went, sometimes even going so far as to stamp out indigenious forms of Christianity in places where they found it already existing before they arrived there. Maybe another way to address the question is to ask if Islam is able to express itself as a religion independent enough of its Arabic origins?
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Woodrow
11-02-2009, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Maybe another way to address the question is to ask if Islam is able to express itself as a religion independent enough of its Arabic origins?
Peace Gene,

Just my view. I believe in the past you stated you have read at least some of the Qur'an in English. Now if you were unaware that it was originally written in Arabic would you have suspected it had an Arabic origin?

Our source of our belief is the Qur'an and the Ahadeeth even reading both in Arabic I can not find anything in it I would view as Arabic influenced. But, that could be just me.

The style of The Qur'an does not match any Arabic literature I know of. The Ahadeeth at least to me closely resembles what I would find in typical court transcriptions of testimony. The only Arabic influence or what could be seen as influence is the use of the Arabic writing.
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Grace Seeker
11-02-2009, 04:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace Gene,

Just my view. I believe in the past you stated you have read at least some of the Qur'an in English. Now if you were unaware that it was originally written in Arabic would you have suspected it had an Arabic origin?
I don't know enough about Arabic life, culture, history, tradition, or other ways apart from that which I learned in association with Islam to answer that question.

Off topic, but I have a sense that many people make the same mistake with Christianity. For instance, I am constantly amazed at how much people on LI think that Paul was the "creator" or "inventor" of Christianity because (they suggest) he introduce all sorts of novel ideas to it. The reality is that if one knows the background, Paul's letters are simply filled with allusions that are based in Jewish tradition and culture. Even though he was writing to a Greek world, he remained a Jew at his core, but unless you know that Jewish core most people miss it and assume that Paul was an innovator. I would probably make the same mistake with regard to seeing/missing any of the Arabic origins in the Qur'an.
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Getoffmyback
12-31-2009, 12:03 PM
None arab muslim who never learned arabic will never read qoran. Even if they did learn arabic they won't understand the depth of it as arabs do.
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Caller الداعي
12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
sorry i dont agree with that. thats like saying a non english wont understand english literature like the english even if he learns it !!!!!!
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Hugo
12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
None arab muslim who never learned arabic will never read qoran. Even if they did learn arabic they won't understand the depth of it as arabs do.
There are so many double negatives here that it is hardly possible to work out what you might be saying but it seems to be that Islam is really only for Arabs who can read 14the century Arabic
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Getoffmyback
12-31-2009, 12:30 PM
As the azhar scholars banned the translation of qoran because that the words of allah came in arabic. Also because of the arabic multi meaning to a single word. Then its not possible for non arabs to recieve the concept easily as arabs. A non arab will need to spend his life learning arabic or he will need a constant arab teacher's help in order to reach an arab level of understanding and how many non arabs done that? A small percentage of course . English is the easiest language on earth.
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Foulana
12-31-2009, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
None arab muslim who never learned arabic will never read qoran. Even if they did learn arabic they won't understand the depth of it as arabs do.
many arabs dont fully understand arabic, most arabs speak colloquial which is not the same as qur'anic arabic and so themselves dont have a great understanding of the language of the Qur'an.

I understand what you are saying learning a language is different to being brought up on it but I disagree.

Islam is not an arab religion but it is a religion based upon arabic, learning the language is fundamental if you really want to know you deen in depth.

but not being able to speak arabic doesnt prevent you from knowing and believing in Allah swt or worshipping him. but the preservation of the arabic languge has been very important in the preservation of Islam where other religions such as christianity have been open to corruption and change.
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Woodrow
12-31-2009, 01:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
None arab muslim who never learned arabic will never read qoran. Even if they did learn arabic they won't understand the depth of it as arabs do.
That is true for some. But, remember the Qur'an was written to be easy for us to understand. A person who was not born speaking Arabic, need not become fluent in conversational Arabic to Understand the Glorious Qur'an. With dedication and a good teacher, it is not a difficult task to learn the Qur'anic Arabic.
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Supreme
12-31-2009, 01:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
That is true for some. But, remember the Qur'an was written to be easy for us to understand. A person who was not born speaking Arabic, need not become fluent in conversational Arabic to Understand the Glorious Qur'an. With dedication and a good teacher, it is not a difficult task to learn the Qur'anic Arabic.
What about those of use just naturally crap at other languages? Even eith private tutoring for two years, I barely managed to scrape a C at GCSE German, and that's closely related to English and in the same alphabet. I'd find it frustrating to keep the patience to learn another language, even at conversational level.
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Woodrow
12-31-2009, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
As the azhar scholars banned the translation of qoran because that the words of allah came in arabic. Also because of the arabic multi meaning to a single word. Then its not possible for non arabs to recieve the concept easily as arabs. A non arab will need to spend his life learning arabic or he will need a constant arab teacher's help in order to reach an arab level of understanding and how many non arabs done that? A small percentage of course . English is the easiest language on earth.
English is a paradoxical language. Possibly the most difficult language there is for clear understanding. Even very simple sentences such as "Red, read the red lead book sufficiently to take the lead and become the leader and led all who read about red lead." It will be difficult to find even 2 people who will understand that the same way.

Add to that you have major differences between British, American, Australian and Canadian English. Then you have the very many colloquial/local dialects. It is even difficult for a Texan to understand what a person from New York is saying. Add to that the various forms:standard, slang, Traditional, formal, legal, political, business, scientific, medical etc each with it's own vocabulary and grammatical rules. Then to complicate matters it is a constantly changing language and the meaning of words change almost as fast as they are written. I do not speak the same English as many of the younger members here. Sometimes I wonder if it is even possible for any 2 English speaking people to actually understand each other.
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Woodrow
12-31-2009, 02:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
What about those of use just naturally crap at other languages? Even eith private tutoring for two years, I barely managed to scrape a C at GCSE German, and that's closely related to English and in the same alphabet. I'd find it frustrating to keep the patience to learn another language, even at conversational level.
If you speak English, you are already speaking at least 10 or 15 languages. Although none of them with full awareness. English is a hodge podge Language made up of a multitude of languages.

Yes, it can be difficult to learn another language, but not impossible if a person can submerse themselves in it. Admittedly, I have difficulty with Urdu, even though some of my grandchildren have it as their first language.

I also had difficulty with German, although I can read it reasonably well I can not understand it when it is spoken and I butcher the pronunciations when I attempt to speak it.

However, for some reason most of us reverts find it easy to learn Qur'anic Arabic. Perhaps because we have both desire and incentive to learn it. My spoken Arabic is horrible, probably because it is in the Darija dialect and the spoken Darija is only understood by those who have lived in the Maghreb
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Getoffmyback
12-31-2009, 02:59 PM
Its not about english or arabic literature. You will be forgiven if you make a small mistake when translating a sentence. The teacher will probably give you an F for it and no one will judge you. Its impossible to translate qoran.
Non arab muslims will never have the privilege of reading qoran by their own mother tongue language.
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Woodrow
12-31-2009, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
Its not about english or arabic literature. You will be forgiven if you make a small mistake when translating a sentence. The teacher will probably give you an F for it and no one will judge you. Its impossible to translate qoran.
Non arab muslims will never have the privilege of reading qoran by their own mother tongue language.
Perhaps it would be better to just say those who do not speak Arabic as their native language. There are non Arabs who speak Arabic as their native language and there are Arabs who do not speak Arabic. You do have non Arab Muslims who speak Arabic as their Native Language.

I do know a few non Muslim Arabs who speak Arabic as their native language, but do not understand Qur'anic Arabic very well.
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Grace Seeker
12-31-2009, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
Its impossible to translate qoran.
Given that there are many translations already in existence, that seems to be a misstatement. Of course, I recognize that Islam does not consider any of these translations to actually be the Qur'an, but then that is another issue. It is possible to translate the Quranic Arabic into other languages, and still communicate the essential truths revealed in the Qur'an to non-Arabic speakers.

Non arab muslims will never have the privilege of reading qoran by their own mother tongue language.
DUH!!

In case you are a non-native speaker of English, that's American slang for "Duh! That's obvious!" If they were native speakers then it would be their mother tongue. But that it isn't their mother tongue doesn't mean that one cannot learn it well enough to understand it in Arabic.

But, I think you miss another point in your series of objections to non-Arabic speakers ability to truly understand the message of the Qur'an. Any communication is about more than just the words themselves, but the context from which they were written. There is no person alive today who is able to recapture the context in which the Qur'an was written. So, just as you seem to imply that non-Arabic speakers cannot really grasp the whole message of the Qur'an because they don't think in Arabic, so I would suggest to you that non-7th century Arabs cannot do so either simply because they don't think out of that context. Indeed it wouldn't surprise me that if one were to find a time machine and transport Muhammad into the present that he might wonder about more than just a few of the ways that the Qur'an has come to be interpreted and applied today. Ways that he never understood them, but because of the changing context from which people read and understand the unchanged written word, the meaning of the message has changed for today's hearer of the Qur'an vs. those who heard it originally.

I'm not even saying that this is in any way a corruption, for all texts need to speak to their present day audience as much as they did their original audience. But, for the text to do that, the message must by the very nature of communicating to a different group change ever so slightly in the process.



Lastly, Getoffmyback, you are the only person I know that writes in English of the sacred book of Islam and calls it the qoran. Are you sure your the most qualified person there is to talk about issues of translation between languages?
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Getoffmyback
12-31-2009, 09:18 PM
grace seeker . i'm french educated we used to say qoran qouran etc....you r really sensitive towards my qualifications. why do u care? did u see me presenting a solution for any issues?
and by the way i'm with the translation of qoran not against. and i hope the people in charge will come up with an idea to do it.
u wanna show off u linguistic heroism over an unofficial site. well be sure ur not going to be credited for it. just be a normal internet user as i am. or apply for a job that will satisfy ur heroism.duhhhh
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KittenLover
12-31-2009, 09:54 PM
Islam came for all of mankind, the final messenger was sent for everyone, not just for a specific set of people like Moses and Jesus, they were both sent to the Jews only.


format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
What about those of use just naturally crap at other languages? Even eith private tutoring for two years, I barely managed to scrape a C at GCSE German, and that's closely related to English and in the same alphabet. I'd find it frustrating to keep the patience to learn another language, even at conversational level.
I didn't read the whole thread but it seemed people were talking about languages,

remember Jesus revealed his message in his own language and what you people read is only a translation.

We have the same in Islam translations but many people learn the arabic since it's easy to learn with dedication. Just like you would learn the language that Jesus spoke to read the original scriptures if they still exist.
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Getoffmyback
12-31-2009, 10:44 PM
why i cant post my own post?
how do u multi quote?
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Grace Seeker
01-01-2010, 02:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover
Just like you would learn the language that Jesus spoke to read the original scriptures if they still exist.

Jesus was probably tri-lingual, speaking not just Aramaic, but also Greek and Latin. As to the language the original scriptures were written in, I dispute your implied reality. The original language of the Christian scriptures depends on which particular book you are referring to. Most of the Tanakah was written in Hebrew. Some of it was written in a Babylonian dialect of Aramaic. And the majority (if not the entirety) of the New Testament was written in Greek (there is a possibility that Matthew was written in Hebrew originally, but the oldest copies of it that we have are all in Greek). As for what you consider to be the "original" scriptures of Jesus' Injil, Jesus is not reported to have ever written scripture himself, so there would be nothing at all to read.
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