The messiah?

[INsearch]

My question is this: In the old testament their are many references to a Messiah... I know that the Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament have been altered by human hands but... the prophecies of a Messiah have been mentioned many, many times in the Old Testament Since Jesus was not the Messiah but a great prophet.. and Muhammad (PBUH) was the final Messenger and Prophet (note not the messiah) how does Islam view the concept of the Messiah? I mean.. If I am not mistaken our prophets prophesied about a Messiah so their must be one right?

[INsearch]

In the end times, there will be three important figures emerging:

i. The Mahdi - The guided one, who will unite and bring justice to the world.
ii. The Dajjal - The "anti-christ".
iii. Isa Alaihe Salam - Prophet Jesus. He will come to defeat the Dajjal, but he won't be coming back as a prophet with new revelations, but rather as a follower of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

That's all in brief.

so the Mahdi would be considered the Messiah?

question: why would the Prophet Jesus (PBUH) come to defeat the anti-christ? Why would it not be Muhammad? (PBUH) since he is the greatest of all the messengers?

[anatolian]

Salam insearch.You miss something.Isa aleyhissalam(Jesus) is called the Messiah in Quran.There is not another Messiah.This is something not to be confused.

But at the same time I personally haven't seen many,many references to Messiah in OT as christians claim.I see two or three with the word "Messiah" and there might be some without mentioning the word Messiah.Many of the prophecies which christians think refering to him refer to other people, I think.Some of them refer to Muhammed aleyhisselam I believe.Some refer to completely different things.

[SixTen]

so the Mahdi would be considered the Messiah?

question: why would the Prophet Jesus (PBUH) come to defeat the anti-christ? Why would it not be Muhammad? (PBUH) since he is the greatest of all the messengers?

Messiah does refer to Jesus (as). Being a Prophet/Messiah are not mutually independant. It is seen as a title, like "The appointed" one (referring to christ).

In Islam, it was Jesus (as) wish to return to this Earth, after Muhammad (saw) - hence why he will return (and hence, why he was taken up, i.e. he didn't die on Earth, and won't do so until he returns as he wished later).

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[YusufNoor]

My question is this: In the old testament their are many references to a Messiah... I know that the Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament have been altered by human hands but... the prophecies of a Messiah have been mentioned many, many times in the Old Testament Since Jesus was not the Messiah but a great prophet.. and Muhammad (PBUH) was the final Messenger and Prophet (note not the messiah) how does Islam view the concept of the Messiah? I mean.. If I am not mistaken our prophets prophesied about a Messiah so their must be one right?

:sl:

greeting little Bro!

Jesus Christ/Isa ibn Marriam [Alayhis Salaam] IS the Messiah! as well as great Prophet!

here's a tool for searching the Qur'an:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

here's one for comparing translations:

http://quran.islamicnetwork.com/


here's one for learning the Qur'an and duas:

http://transliteration.org/quran/home.htm

here's one for learning how to pray:

http://english.islamway.com/flashpag...=782&hight=438

here a site with ibn Kathir Tafseer:

http://tafsir.com/Default.asp

here's a site with the Qur'an in Arabic and English:

http://www.kalamullah.com/noble-quran.html

here's a lecture that will benefit you immensely if you listen to it:

http://www.kalamullah.com/al-fatihah.html

here's a site with some great video, please make sure that you watch the Foundations of Islamic Studies series at the bottom of the page! it's about 18 hours, but you will learn alot!

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pa...sk=view&id=288

may Allah[swt] make it easy on you and may He[swt] guide you and keep you on the Straight Path and may He[swt] grant you Jannah and may He[swt] answer your duas! Ameen!

it must be hard being a Muslim in the Republic of Vermontistan! :D

i'm from Cow Hampshire, btw! thought i'm currently in the Seattle area.

i will, In Sha'a Allah [if Allah[swt] wills] post you more links that will benefit you!

:w:

[INsearch]

:sl:

greeting little Bro!

Jesus Christ/Isa ibn Marriam [Alayhis Salaam] IS the Messiah! as well as great Prophet!

here's a tool for searching the Qur'an:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

here's one for comparing translations:

http://quran.islamicnetwork.com/


here's one for learning the Qur'an and duas:

http://transliteration.org/quran/home.htm

here's one for learning how to pray:

http://english.islamway.com/flashpag...=782&hight=438

here a site with ibn Kathir Tafseer:

http://tafsir.com/Default.asp

here's a site with the Qur'an in Arabic and English:

http://www.kalamullah.com/noble-quran.html

here's a lecture that will benefit you immensely if you listen to it:

http://www.kalamullah.com/al-fatihah.html

here's a site with some great video, please make sure that you watch the Foundations of Islamic Studies series at the bottom of the page! it's about 18 hours, but you will learn alot!

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pa...sk=view&id=288

may Allah[swt] make it easy on you and may He[swt] guide you and keep you on the Straight Path and may He[swt] grant you Jannah and may He[swt] answer your duas! Ameen!

it must be hard being a Muslim in the Republic of Vermontistan! :D

i'm from Cow Hampshire, btw! thought i'm currently in the Seattle area.

i will, In Sha'a Allah [if Allah[swt] wills] post you more links that will benefit you!

:w:

Whoa!! thank you for the sites!:muddlehea oh and many sitings apparently for the Messiah was in the book of Isaiah you can find a crap load of them supposedly. Question: since Jesus was indeed the Messiah.... what did he bring? what was he the messiah of? (sorry for the confusion in Christianity he is the savior of the world but since this is of course they got it wrong... what is it?)

[SixTen]

He brought revelations - the Gospels, to guide people.

[INsearch]

ok but the gospels have been corrupted by human hands thus everyones confusion about Jesus (PBUH) and such?

[SixTen]

ok but the gospels have been corrupted by human hands thus everyones confusion about Jesus (PBUH) and such?

Indeed, hence the reason Muhammad (saw) came to provide new revelations - which fixed previous confusions, corruptions and so fourth. Throughout history, people always deviated from what they have been taught - and Prophets have been sent to correct them. Even, in the end time, people will have left the way of Muhammad (saw), except this time the Earth will end - their will be no further prophets to bring revelations.

[YusufNoor]

Whoa!! thank you for the sites!:muddlehea oh and many sitings apparently for the Messiah was in the book of Isaiah you can find a crap load of them supposedly. Question: since Jesus was indeed the Messiah.... what did he bring? what was he the messiah of? (sorry for the confusion in Christianity he is the savior of the world but since this is of course they got it wrong... what is it?)

:sl:

Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] brought the Injeel, NOT to be confused with the Gospels!

it's EASY to see why the "Christians" came to believe what they did! the Qur'an says:

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

and it's relatively easy to see how the word "Savior" could confuse them! you see, EACH [lead]Prophet is a "saviour" for his time and place! look at the words of Nehemiah Chapter 9:

The following is an excerpt from “Levites Song of Praise”, taken from Mesorah Publication’s The Stone Edition of the Tanakh. Of course, this is a Jewish Publication. We pick it up at the conquest of Canaan:

Nehemiah 9:24

24) The children [of Israel] came and took possession of the land, and YOU subdued inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, before them, and delivered them into their hand, along with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased.

25) They captured fortified cities and a fertile land; they took possession of houses filled with every good thing, chiseled cisterns, vineyards and olive trees, and abundant fruit trees; so they ate and became satiated and fattened and took delight in YOUR great bounty.

26) Then they became recalcitrant and rebelled against YOU, casting YOUR Torah behind their backs. They killed YOUR Prophets who had warned them in order to make them return to YOU, and they committed great provocations.

27) So YOU delivered them into the hands of their enemies and YOU afflicted them. But at the time of their affliction they would cry out to YOU and YOU would hear them from Heaven; and in YOUR abundant compassion YOU would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies.

28) But when it would ease for them they would revert to doing evil before YOU, so YOU would abandon them into the hands of their enemies, and would oppress them. They would once again cry out to YOU, and YOU would hear from Heaven and in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times.

29) YOU warned them, to return to YOUR Torah, but they acted wickedly and did not listen to YOYR commandments and transgressed through YOUR laws, which man should do in order that he may live through them. They turned a rebellious shoulder away and stiffened their necks and did not listen.

30) Yet YOU extended {grace} to them for many years, and YOU warned them by YOUR spirit, through the hand of YOUR Prophets, but they did not give ear; so you delivered them into the hands of the people of the lands.

31) In YOUR abundant compassion YOU did not annihilate them and YOU did not abandon them, for YOU are A Gracious and Compassionate God.
I Kings 18:1-4

here we see the word saviors used BY THE JEWS to refer to those who Allah[swt] "would send!"

so to some, it APPEARED that the "SAVIOR" was crucified! btw, Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] was the JEWISH Messiah!

:w:

[Trumble]

But at the same time I personally haven't seen many,many references to Messiah in OT as christians claim.I see two or three with the word "Messiah" and there might be some without mentioning the word Messiah.Many of the prophecies which christians think refering to him refer to other people, I think.

Such references (and they are few and far between, and non-existent in the Torah) are not really relevant. The whole Messianic concept is absolutely fundamental to Judaism, and that was true long before the NT was written. It would have been well known and accepted by all Jews at the time of Jesus.

What is more important is that the Christian idea of the Messiah is vastly different from the Jewish conception, which is of a human (i.e not divine or semi-divine) political, military and religious leader. Whatever his real nature, Jesus was never going to be considered the Messiah by the Jews; he simply didn't fit the job description. In other words,

Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] was the JEWISH Messiah!

No, he wasn't, and never could have been.

[The Khan]

Brother INsearch, the reason why Isa (AHS) will return is due to the fact that he's the only prophet who's still not dead.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them [or it appeared so unto them], and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (4:157)

[INsearch]

Jesus (PBUH) never died? or did he die and get risen from the dead? If he did not die.... why did they think he did?

[Zafran]

salaam

First of all Isa (as) Jesus is the messiah OF THE JEWISH people accroding to Islam. He is also the messiah for Muslims and Christains. The job of Isa (as) Jesus was to guide the Jewsih people back to God but as everyone knows they rejected him and still do (atleast mainstream Judaism) however before they could kill him Allah or God saved Isa (as) who will return for his second job which is to kill the dajjal.

why kill the Dajjal??

because he is the deciever and will claim to be the Messiah in the future leading a lot of people away including (i'm afraid) the Jews. Isa (as) will come and fulfil his mission by killing the Dajjal and stay with humainty until he dies and then the end of days come.

By the way before Isa (as) comes a riteous man called Mahdi will come who will bring peace back for a short whilst until Dajjal comes and then finally Isa (as) comes to kill the Dajjal.

hope that helps

May Allah guide you and keep you on the straight path.

peace.

[Imam]

:sl:

Did Jesus (peace be upon him) fulfilled such old testament prophecies regarding such long awaited messiah?
No he isn’t….

Did Mohamed (peace be upon him ) fulfilled such old testament prophecies regarding such long awaited messiah?

No he isn’t….

But who should care !!!

Don’t be surprised ,

Who is such old testament messiah and what is the basic Scriptural requirements concerning him:



•He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
•Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
•There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
•The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
•The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel
•The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
•He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

In other words according to such prophecies there will be heaven on earth !!
And due to the fact that Jews still believe that such prophecies are truly inspired and been truly prophesied by the prophets, they have never accepted the message of Jesus and Mohamed peace be upon them....

They seek some king who would establish such heaven on earth and restore for them the glory days of King David …


Now let me highlight and solve the issue from Quranic and Islamic point of view:

Our brother INsearch, asks ,how does Islam view the concept of the Messiah?

The concept of a person (from the seed of David and Solomon, whom is his arrival There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease, rebuild the Jewish temple etc….) is not a Quranic concept .. There will be death ,hunger ,illness ,suffering ,wars, disbelieve till day of judgment.....

There is nothing in the quran about a king who came or will come to fulfil such old testament messianic prophecies……. The whole old testament messianic structure is a pure fabrication ,according to the Quran...

Jesus is according to the Quran is the messiah ( term is used in to describe ANY Israelite priests, prophets, and kings who were anointed with oil in consecration to their respective offices) son of mary who came to remind the Jews of the necessity of monotheism and to make lawful to them part of what was (Before) forbidden to them
…
Holy Quran 3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.


Mohamed(peace be upon him) is again a prophet preaching the same message of monotheism and giving a comprehensive law for all…
There is no quranic mention of God ever sent or will send kings from the seed of david to put an end to hunger or death , ,illness ,suffering ,wars, etc…….that is mere ethnocentric wishes that never and will never be materialized.

some Jews invented the messianic prophecies during the time when they were not satisfied with their life and the feeling that they failed to satisfy God and satisfy their hunger for power and glory .....

they needed to feel comfort , CONSOLATION
and that there will be an end to their suffering and their shortcoming with God......

Have we a clue for such Jews invention of the character of the king messiah?


"an analysis of the Jeremiah manuscript will be sufficient to refute the claim that we can be reasonably sure the present day text of the Bible is essentially the same as what was in the so called "original auto-graphs."

The sections missing from the Septuagint and Qumran versions of Jeremiah clearly testify to what Fitzmyer called "a Palestinian reworking of the book." Let's consider, for example, the following omission:

Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will perform that
good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and
concerning the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time,
will I cause a Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and
he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those
days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and
this is the name whereby she shall be called: Yahweh our right-
eousness. For thus saith Yahweh: David shall never want a man to
sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; neither shall the priests
the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to
burn meal-offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of Yahweh came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith Yahweh: If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, so that there shall not be day and night in their season; then may also my covenant be broken with David my serv- ant, that he shall not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured; so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister
unto me. And the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah, saying, Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which Yahweh did choose, he hath cast them off? thus do they
despise my people, that they should be no more a nation before
them. Thus saith Yahweh: If my covenant of day and night stand
not, if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
then will I also cast away the seed of Jacob, and of David my
servant, so that I will not take of his seed to be rulers over the
seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity
to return, and will have mercy on them, (33:14-26, ASV with
Yahweh substituted for Jehovah).

The passage is about Yahweh's promise to establish an eternal, perpetual throne of David over the house of Israel,it concerns a cen-tral biblical theme and must therefore be considered important, yet it was in neither the Septuagint version nor the Jeremiah scroll found at Qumran. (The Jeremiah Dilemma,Farrell till)

In a word, the credibility of such messianic structure would be seriously undermined if it could be proven that such messianic passage is absent from
Septuagint version and the Qumran text...

I found nothing better to conclude the post than :

"The central problem of Christianity is: if the Messiah has come, why is the world so evil? For Judaism, the problem is: if the world is so evil, why does the Messiah not come." Seymour Siegel

thanx for our brother INsearch
for such thread

and peace for all.....

[doorster]

after his arrival There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease, rebuild the Jewish temple etc….) is not a Quranic concept .. There will be death ,hunger ,illness ,suffering ,wars, disbelieve till day of judgment.....

where did you get that from? can you give me a reference from Quraan and/or Sahih Ahaadees (not from anymore Seymour Siegels)?

[Imam]

where did you get that from? can you give me a reference from Quraan and/or Sahih Ahaadees (not from anymore Seymour Siegels)?

:sl:
Do you think the people on earth would stop to die ,being ill,being hungry ,to make wars,to suffer ?!!!


Now The burden of proof lies on your shoulder not mine ,to prove that with a reference from the Quraan.....

:w:

[doorster]

:sl:
Do you think the people on earth would stop to die ,being ill,being hungry ,to make wars,to suffer ?!!!


Now The burden of proof lies on your shoulder not mine ,to prove that with a reference from the Quraan.....

:w:

thanx that is all I needed to know from you to confirm something that was nagging at me for a while now.

[Imam]

thanx that is all I needed to know from you to confirm something that was nagging at me for a while now.

doorster just be factual

Yes the burden on your shoulder to prove that the people on earth would stop to die ,being ill,being hungry ,to make wars,to suffer


such things are established facts in human life ,claiming otherwise needs a textual proof from a divine book, that is why I told you ,it is your burden not mine......

The sun rises from the east , but I could assert that it will rise in the west as a sign of the day of judgment supporting my claims with a hadith

Abu Hurayrah(RA) narrated that the messenger of Allah (Pbuh) said, “The day of the hour will not come until the sun rises from the west” (Sahih Muslim).

Now where is you textual proof that the people on earth would stop to die ,being ill,being hungry ,to make wars,to suffer ?!

Can't you get the argument yet?!!!!!

[doorster]

doorster just be factual

Yes the burden on your shoulder to prove that the people on earth would stop to die ,being ill,being hungry ,to make wars,to suffer


such things are established facts in human life ,claiming otherwise needs a textual proof from a divine book, that is why I told you ,it is your burden not mine......

The sun rises from the east , but I could assert that it will rise in the west as a sign of the day of judgment supporting my claims with a hadith

Abu Hurayrah(RA) narrated that the messenger of Allah (Pbuh) said, “The day of the hour will not come until the sun rises from the west” (Sahih Muslim).

Now where is you textual proof that the people on earth would stop to die ,being ill,being hungry ,to make wars,to suffer ?!

Can't you get the argument yet?!!!!!

I am being factual when I say that thank you very much for letting me know all that I needed to know about you. I would be grateful if you would now let me exit the thread peacefully

[Imam]

:sl:

I am being factual when I say that thank you very much for letting me know all that I needed to know about you.

obviously it is You who let me know all that I needed to know about you ,by editing your post and taking my words out of context,giving the impression that it was me who made the flawed statement

The concept of a person (from the seed of David and Solomon, whom is his arrival There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease, rebuild the Jewish temple etc….) is not a Quranic concept .. There will be death ,hunger ,illness ,suffering ,wars, disbelieve till day of judgment

anyway May Allah forgive you

... :w:

[SixTen]

:sl:



obviously it is You who let me know all that I needed to know about you ,by editing your post and taking my words out of context,giving the impression that it was me who made the flawed statement



anyway May Allah forgive you

... :w:

Imam, If I was you I would just ignore doorster. He is known and has been warned by people, for, lets say, "harassing" others on this forum. No point wasting time with him, I mean once you refute one thing he says he will go off "surrendering" anyway.

[Imam]

Jesus (PBUH) never died? or did he die and get risen from the dead? If he did not die.... why did they think he did?

:sl:

What if Jesus (peace be upon him ) was really crucified ? What if he rose from the dead?


If one think about such issue in depth, one find out that Islam case against Christianity goes much further than (no, Jesus wasn’t crucified)



What if Jesus (peace be upon him) was killed by the Jews or the Romans?

Let’s imagine the Quranic verse like that

verse 4:156-159 “That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; and they killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. and Allah rose him from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights)


would Islam and Christianity, if the verse like that, go together hand in hand?

That is impossible and let me explain why:

Actually Some Christians fancy themselves that all what they need is to prove for the Muslims is that Jesus was crucified ,after that Muslims would easily swallow the concept of (blood atonement)

Unfortunately for them ,the problem is more profound ,it is not only Jesus was crucified or not ,it is ,has such crucifixion any significance with the so called (atonement)?


Does The Quran negate the crucifixion in order to negate the (blood atonement)?

Absolutely not …..


the Quran is of no need to claim that Jesus wasn't crucified to oppose the (blood atonement)

the Quran affirmed that some Jews were responsible for the killing of some of their prophets, and if Jesus has been really executed ,that would has been mentioned in the Quran and there wouldn’t have been any wonder about that …..

what is the big deal about a great prophet that has been added to the list of those great executed prophets?!!


Our case against Christianity is not that they believed the Jewish false hearsay (we killed Jesus son of Mary) ,but the fact that they not only believed the hearsay but also misused it (the invention of the so called blood atonement).



why did they think he was crucified?

How many humans all over history and till this moment would believe in a false hearsay?

The importance not whether they believed the hearsay or not ,it is the misuse of the hearsay (making the execution of a moral teacher, miracles maker ,prophet ,messiah etc…… as a way for atoning all humans)

Peace be upon those who believed the message of affirming monotheism, keeping the commandments ,which Jesus peace be upon him brought, though they were misinformed about the way his life was terminated on earth…

A true believer is the one who busy his mind with the teachings which the great man brought ,not the way his journey on earth ended
....

another post with related questions ,for those who interested to resd more

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...s-islam-4.html

and peace for all

:w:

[seeker-of-light]

so is the revelation story in the bible very similiar to the islam version of "armageddon"? i havent read much about it^_^

[Hamayun]

Where has Brother InSearch gone? He was really enthusiastic in the beginning.

I hope all the arguing didn't scare him off....