US Attacks syria

[barney]

Just on the news.

Some building on the Syrian border hit by USAF.
No real details as yet, some civilians killed :(

[barney]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

United States military helicopters bombed targets in a Syrian border town near Iraq on Sunday after Global Jihad operatives allegedly crossed the border into Syria, killing at least eight people.


A US Army helicopter over Iraq. [illustrative]
Photo: AP [file]

Slideshow: Pictures of the week The attack, which was not confirmed by the US military, was the first ever reported American strike in Syria.

Israeli defense officials said the incident was not connected to Israel and that the American troops had been chasing Global Jihad suspects in Iraq. The helicopters then crossed into Syria in pursuit of the terrorists.

According to Syria's state-run television, US military helicopters attacked an area near the Syrian border town of Abu Kamal and that there were casualties. It gave no other details on Sunday's attack.

Local residents told The Associated Press by telephone that two helicopters carrying US soldiers raided Hwijeh village, 17 kilometers inside Syria's border, killing seven people and wounding five others. Reuters quoted residents who said that the attack targeted a house in the area in which a man and his four sons and two nearby workers were killed.

Another report said that four helicopters were involved in the operation and that two of the helicopters landed and soldiers disembarked.

[SixTen]

**** americans!

[The_Prince]

where is the western outrage, where are the protests, and the international condemnation etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

change this around with Muslims doing the act and thats what they would be asking for. yet again the Sovereignty of another Muslim country has been violated.

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[Musaafirah]

I don't know how they can bear to live with themselves.. :(

[The_Prince]

I don't know how they can bear to live with themselves.. :(

because they are hypocrites, you think they even care? they could care less if 100 Muslims were killed, its nothing but stats and numbers for them, Muslim blood is worthless and cheap. they talk about peace and respecting innocence, yet when they say that they are only referring to themselves.

[Güven]

"The dead included a man and his four children and a married couple. "

What is going on ??

:w:

[Woodrow]

because they are hypocrites, you think they even care? they could care less if 100 Muslims were killed, its nothing but stats and numbers for them, Muslim blood is worthless and cheap. they talk about peace and respecting innocence, yet when they say that they are only referring to themselves.

I very much agree with this statement. However, I think the term hypocrite is a bit harsh and actually applies mostly to some of our leaders an not to most of us Americans.

Ignorance is the biggest problem here in the US not hypocrisy. Typically we do not know much about the world beyond our own town and have no idea at all what our leaders in Washington DC do. For most of us Washington is just a place far away and we don't seem to care what they do, it has no direct effect on us, or so we fool ourselves into believing.

[Ansariyah]

^collateral damage?

[buddy1]

I dont blame the forces themselves, they are going from orders from the leaders, thats where the states have the issues, Bush is all about blowing things up, if he had left things then we wouldnt have all the problems we have.

This is supposed to be a war against terrorism, which i dont think is a bad thing, it needs to be controlled, but randomly killing Muslims is asking for trouble. Roll on the US election and get that Idiot out of the whitehouse and get someone who actually has an idea on running the country in there to sort this mess out.

For the record, I dont think Bush could run a marathon let alone a country!

[Ansariyah]

because they are hypocrites, you think they even care? they could care less if 100 Muslims were killed, its nothing but stats and numbers for them, Muslim blood is worthless and cheap. they talk about peace and respecting innocence, yet when they say that they are only referring to themselves.

surah baqarah 2:11 & 2:12

When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

[Keltoi]

From what I understand the U.S. military followed some jihadist types across the Syrian border and assaulted them there. They have been crossing the border, doing whatever it is they do, and then retreating back into Syria. If Syria wants to shout about "serious aggression" they need to reign in those who take advantage of the border to inflict damage on the Iraqi people and Coalition forces.

[The_Prince]

surah baqarah 2:11 & 2:12

When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

excellent verse, it perfectly describes the situation.

[barney]

where is the western outrage, where are the protests, and the international condemnation etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

change this around with Muslims doing the act and thats what they would be asking for. yet again the Sovereignty of another Muslim country has been violated.

Pretty much evrywhere. Try finding something on this that is celebration.

[Amadeus85]

I think that Turkey have done very similar thing a few times this year, when turkish forces crossed the Iraqi border and kill Kurd rebeliants.

[The_Prince]

Pretty much evrywhere. Try finding something on this that is celebration.

i can easily go find several comments by westerners who applaud this, just come to youtube and click on some anti-Islamic videos and enjoy the comment section where many westerners boast about killing several Muslims in Iraq.

[nocturnal]

They'll probably deny it, if they don't deny it, they'll insist that this was targetted at insurgents who were within Iraqi terriroty when the strike was launched.

It's just another case in a growing litany of american neo-imperialist air strikes that will be discounted by the Pentagon and it's subersvient Iraqi collaborators as "collateral damage".

[Chuck]

I dont blame the forces themselves, they are going from orders from the leaders, thats where the states have the issues, Bush is all about blowing things up, if he had left things then we wouldnt have all the problems we have.

This is supposed to be a war against terrorism, which i dont think is a bad thing, it needs to be controlled, but randomly killing Muslims is asking for trouble. Roll on the US election and get that Idiot out of the whitehouse and get someone who actually has an idea on running the country in there to sort this mess out.

For the record, I dont think Bush could run a marathon let alone a country!

I think right before the election something might happen that might tilt the votes for Mccain.

[Zarmina]

because they are hypocrites, you think they even care? they could care less if 100 Muslims were killed, its nothing but stats and numbers for them, Muslim blood is worthless and cheap. they talk about peace and respecting innocence, yet when they say that they are only referring to themselves.

In America right now, being a Muslim is the lowest thing you can be. Even Barack Obama, the so called "change guy", who is running for president stresses over and over that he is not a Muslim. He knows that he can be anything except a Muslim. The majority of Americans hate Muslims, and this is really sad.

[wth1257]

because they are hypocrites, you think they even care? they could care less if 100 Muslims were killed, its nothing but stats and numbers for them, Muslim blood is worthless and cheap. they talk about peace and respecting innocence, yet when they say that they are only referring to themselves.

hey champ,

You know what's a really ignorant and narrow minded thing to do?

When Americans make bigoted and prejudicial statement about Muslims, dehumanize Muslims by asigning them a monolithic purpose and disposition etc.

You know what else is ignorant and narrow minded?

When people do the same thing to Americans.

I was furious and outraged at this story, now I am jointly annoyed by the story and the news that apparently, my former beliefs to the contrary, I don't give a **** and could not care less about non-American blood.

[wth1257]

From what I understand the U.S. military followed some jihadist types across the Syrian border and assaulted them there. They have been crossing the border, doing whatever it is they do, and then retreating back into Syria. If Syria wants to shout about "serious aggression" they need to reign in those who take advantage of the border to inflict damage on the Iraqi people and Coalition forces.

No.

Syria is no saint but the US does not have the right to invade a sovereign nation, launch a military raid, and kill civilians in the process.

There is a reason we have a body of international law.

[buddy1]

I think right before the election something might happen that might tilt the votes for Mccain.

Oh I dont doubt that for one second!

But with the credit crunch getting worse, alot of the states that didnt want a black preseident are now changing their minds for the sake of their jobs and money so we may be surprised!!

[SixTen]

where is the western outrage, where are the protests, and the international condemnation etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

change this around with Muslims doing the act and thats what they would be asking for. yet again the Sovereignty of another Muslim country has been violated.

So true

[Keltoi]

No.

Syria is no saint but the US does not have the right to invade a sovereign nation, launch a military raid, and kill civilians in the process.

There is a reason we have a body of international law.

This isn't some isolated incident. Syria has been a problem for a long time. If a group of jihadists cross the border and become involved in attacks on U.S. forces, those U.S. forces will retaliate. It's understandable that Syria is upset, but perhaps this will make them more proactive in sealing their border crossings.

[SixTen]

This isn't some isolated incident. Syria has been a problem for a long time. If a group of jihadists cross the border and become involved in attacks on U.S. forces, those U.S. forces will go kill Syrian civilians who had nothing to do with any terrorist attacks. It's understandable that Syria is upset, but perhaps this will make them more proactive in sealing their border crossings - except they don't have the power or resources to actually stop the terrorists, but in the end regardless, U.S. justifies the civilian killings by saying that you should have stopped those terrorists from attacking us - just as what happened to Lebannon - where they pretend to be apparently doing what they thought the government should do(stop the terrorists) - but actually they end up not doing that either, but just killing civilians, in what is just blatant massacres of civilians

I thought, I would correct you.

[Keltoi]

I thought, I would correct you.

Firstly, terrorists hide in civilian areas. That is part of their strategy. There is no way to separate civilians from the battlefield in 99% of these scenarios. Israel has and had the same problem in Palestinian areas and with Hezbollah in Lebanon. You can kill the insurgents, but killing insurgents has a high risk of killing non-combatants who are either family members or people simply living in the building in question.

Early on in the Iraq War, U.S. forces had a very strict ROE. It didn't work. Now it is straight up "seek and destroy". Unfortunately, that also means killing insurgents where they live, which also means engaging in civilian areas. No honorable soldier wishes to be responsible for the death of non-combatants. Even more unfortunate, the insurgents are by and large strategically targeting non-combatants. It creates a hellish environment.

[SixTen]

Firstly, terrorists hide in civilian areas. That is part of their strategy. There is no way to separate civilians from the battlefield in 99% of these scenarios. Israel has and had the same problem in Palestinian areas and with Hezbollah in Lebanon. You can kill the insurgents, but killing insurgents has a high risk of killing non-combatants who are either family members or people simply living in the building in question.

Early on in the Iraq War, U.S. forces had a very strict ROE. It didn't work. Now it is straight up "seek and destroy". Unfortunately, that also means killing insurgents where they live, which also means engaging in civilian areas. No honorable soldier wishes to be responsible for the death of non-combatants. Even more unfortunate, the insurgents are by and large strategically targeting non-combatants. It creates a hellish environment.

They sure put an end to Hezbollah, and all those regimes, all those civilian lives I guess in the end were worth disposing of

/end sarcasm

Please, stop reiterating what I already see on the news. When they actually disabled the terrorist groups - then you can actually argue if what they did was justifiable or not.

Right now, Al Qaeda, and most groups, still seem live and kicking - So your arguement is fallacious.

[Keltoi]

They sure put an end to Hezbollah, and all those regimes, all those civilian lives I guess in the end were worth disposing of

/end sarcasm

Please, stop reiterating what I already see on the news. When they actually disabled the terrorist groups - then you can actually argue if what they did was justifiable or not.

Right now, Al Qaeda, and most groups, still seem live and kicking - So your arguement is fallacious.

I wasn't making an argument, I was pointing out the reality. Of course Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and the Taliban still exist. And the conflict continues.

[SixTen]

I wasn't making an argument, I was pointing out the reality. Of course Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and the Taliban still exist. And the conflict continues.

So what good, if you count all the wars and attacks, was gained - which was worth near a million civilian lives (if not more)?

The media, has desensitized people, unfortunately. Nowadays, everything just appears as statistics to people.

Rather sad, how the loss of 1 life is portrayed as a tradegy, while a million goes merely as a statistic.

[The_Prince]

btw since barney mentioned the point that the people in the west arent happy about this etc etc, here is a nice comment from the BBC forum about this incident:

No, they should be applauded! Well done, America. Now do something about Iran before it nukes our oil supplies.

anon.


Recommended by 2 people (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...0159#paginator)

:) how lovely, we are dealing with savages people, a savage that kills civillians none stop, and then cries they are the peace makers who respect humanity.

[Keltoi]

So what good, if you count all the wars and attacks, was gained - which was worth near a million civilian lives (if not more)?

The media, has desensitized people, unfortunately. Nowadays, everything just appears as statistics to people.

Rather sad, how the loss of 1 life is portrayed as a tradegy, while a million goes merely as a statistic.

If you wish to lament civilian casualties, it is striking that the thousands upon thousands of civilians killed by these terrorist groups gets nothing but silence from most people on this board. Many more Iraqi civilians have been killed by insurgent groups than have been killed by U.S. military action. That million person statistic is bogus, but the reality is bad enough. There is an interesting double standard going on when it comes to civilian deaths. You have one side that is strategically targeting civilians for death(Al-Qaeda, Taiban, related groups), and a conventional force that tries to avoid civilian death. When it comes to the former group they are usually defended by people on this forum, either by way of conspiracy theory or silence. Yet when American or British forces are involved in any situation that leads to the unfortunate deaths of civilians they are demonized as blood crazed lunatics. No civilian death is justifiable on moral grounds. Unfortunately this conflict is tied directly to the civilian population. You have the terrorist element that targets them, and the conventional forces that are forced to engage this terrorist element in a civilian environment. As I stated before, it is a hellish situation.

[SixTen]

If you wish to lament civilian casualties, it is striking that the thousands upon thousands of civilians killed by these terrorist groups gets nothing but silence from most people on this board. Many more Iraqi civilians have been killed by insurgent groups than have been killed by U.S. military action. That million person statistic is bogus, but the reality is bad enough. There is an interesting double standard going on when it comes to civilian deaths. You have one side that is strategically targeting civilians for death(Al-Qaeda, Taiban, related groups), and a conventional force that tries to avoid civilian death. When it comes to the former group they are usually defended by people on this forum, either by way of conspiracy theory or silence. Yet when American or British forces are involved in any situation that leads to the unfortunate deaths of civilians they are demonized as blood crazed lunatics. No civilian death is justifiable on moral grounds. Unfortunately this conflict is tied directly to the civilian population. You have the terrorist element that targets them, and the conventional forces that are forced to engage this terrorist element in a civilian environment. As I stated before, it is a hellish situation.

Your arguement is so flawed.

Show me where, we have ever defended or sympathised - deaths of terrorists. Why are you twisting my arguements to imply the former? Their is no double standard. As long as you kill civilians without any benefit, don't expect my backing.

Good luck

[IbnAbdulHakim]

what is done by terrorists is negligable compared to what is done by the US on every level.

[Keltoi]

what is done by terrorists is negligable compared to what is done by the US on every level.

This is what I'm talking about. I could turn the statement around and state "What is done by U.S. forces is negligable compared to what is done by terrorists on every level".

[IbnAbdulHakim]

This is what I'm talking about. I could turn the statement around and state "What is done by U.S. forces is negligable compared to what is done by terrorists on every level".

yes except that would make you a horrible horrible liar

[Keltoi]

Your arguement is so flawed.

Show me where, we have ever defended or sympathised - deaths of terrorists. Why are you twisting my arguements to imply the former? Their is no double standard. As long as you kill civilians without any benefit, don't expect my backing.

Good luck

I've seen a plethora of posts on this forum that deny terrorists are targeting civilians. I've even seen people defend the actions of the terrorists at the Beslan school massacre.

In any event, I'm simply pointing out that there are groups out there whose sole purpose is to kill civilians, and it isn't the U.S. or British militaries. It would be great if people could find it within themselves to denounce these insurgent groups who kill civilians on a daily basis with as much righteousness as they denounce the U.S. or British for their unfortunate involvement in civilian deaths.

[Keltoi]

yes except that would make you a horrible horrible liar

Really? Take the number of civilians killed by terrorist acts in the past two years in Iraq and compare it to civilians killed in U.S. military operations. The number difference is quite striking.

[SixTen]

I've seen a plethora of posts on this forum that deny terrorists are targeting civilians. I've even seen people defend the actions of the terrorists at the Beslan school massacre.

In any event, I'm simply pointing out that there are groups out there whose sole purpose is to kill civilians, and it isn't the U.S. or British militaries. It would be great if people could find it within themselves to denounce these insurgent groups who kill civilians on a daily basis with as much righteousness as they denounce the U.S. or British for their unfortunate involvement in civilian deaths.

You see, this is a debate between you and me. I am not interested what other people say. When you state that a double standard exist - unless its directed at me, their is no reason to state it.

Now, I am against all terrorist organisations, so make another paragraph keeping the discussion in context - and justify your reasons to support the US force operations - and how all those civilians lives which were killed wern't in vain.

[Izyan]

what is done by terrorists is negligable compared to what is done by the US on every level.

Have you ever been to Iraq? I have. I can honestly tell you that many injustices (rape, torture, murder, kidnappings) have been done by those we call brother. In my family's village they were more afraid of what other muslims might do to them than what the Americans would. It got even worst when other muslims that didn't look like us or talk like us started coming to town. No they weren't Americans either, Syrians have a distinct accent.

[SixTen]

Have you ever been to Iraq? I have. I can honestly tell you that many injustices (rape, torture, murder, kidnappings) have been done by those we call brother. In my family's village they were more afraid of what other muslims might do to them than what the Americans would. It got even worst when other muslims that didn't look like us or talk like us started coming to town. No they weren't Americans either, Syrians have a distinct accent.

Guess what? US forces are known to have done the same, unless you actually think they don't rape Iraqi civilians? Or harm them, torture them and various other things?

You see, we don't support or defend those Iraqis/terrorists who engage in those acts - but unlike some people- we are opposing the US forces too - as they just are doing the same thing and have yet to fix anything, Iraq is still a mess, hundreds of thousands dead. No good has come from the US forces, none which was worth all the deaths, rape and torture that they created themselves.

You need to really understand what we are saying.

[Izyan]

Guess what? US forces are known to have done the same, unless you actually think they don't rape Iraqi civilians? Or harm them, torture them and various other things?

You see, we don't support or defend those Iraqis/terrorists who engage in those acts - but unlike some people- we are opposing the US forces too - as they just are doing the same thing and have yet to fix anything, Iraq is still a mess, hundreds of thousands dead. No good has come from the US forces, none which was worth all the deaths, rape and torture that they created themselves.

You need to really understand what we are saying.

Saddam is gone that's a huge positive for me. Things are calmer in Iraq than you think

[SixTen]

Saddam is gone that's a huge positive for me. Things are calmer in Iraq than you think

So, Sadam gone - was worth all that turmoil? All those deaths?

Anyway, lets get real, the reason used to justify the war was for the protection of their own interests, against so called Weapons of mass destruction. I still wonder how they managed to fool the public, with the "Regime change" justification. Pathetic really. Iraq has been trumpled over, and all you lot got to say is - "Well Sadams gone", really, just... >.<

[buddy1]

To be fair, I dont understand the war, I first thought it was a war against terrorism, not a war against where some of the terrorist were from.

Then I thought it was a war about Oil, because the British and US Government were money hungry.

Then it was more like a religious war which would be ridiculous because its not the religion that cause's the problems its a handfull of the people in it.

now Im not sure which one of the 3 it is if any!!?

any one want to elaborate?!

[SixTen]

You know, one thing for sure is - Atleast you can trust Osama Bin laden, with what he says, you can't with Bush though can you? Ones an open terrorist, the others a terrorist in disguise (albeit a bad one).

[The_Prince]

Have you ever been to Iraq? I have. I can honestly tell you that many injustices (rape, torture, murder, kidnappings) have been done by those we call brother. In my family's village they were more afraid of what other muslims might do to them than what the Americans would. It got even worst when other muslims that didn't look like us or talk like us started coming to town. No they weren't Americans either, Syrians have a distinct accent.

are you willing to condemn the american terrorism in Iraq? or will you ignore it and probaly say its not terrorism.

[buddy1]

You know, one thing for sure is - Atleast you can trust Osama Bin laden, with what he says, you can't with Bush though can you? Ones an open terrorist, the others a terrorist in disguise (albeit a bad one).

I think thats a bit steep, How can anybody trust someone that is associated with such a mortifying terrorist act?

[buddy1]

are you willing to condemn the american terrorism in Iraq? or will you ignore it and probaly say its not terrorism.

I think whats going on in Iraq and afganisistan is a very childish retalliation act, my partner is being expected to go and fight in one of these two destination for the UK Army and he is on the verge of discharging himself because fighting for no particular reason was not what he signed up for, saving people and countries was.

[Izyan]

So, Sadam gone - was worth all that turmoil? All those deaths?

Anyway, lets get real, the reason used to justify the war was for the protection of their own interests, against so called Weapons of mass destruction. I still wonder how they managed to fool the public, with the "Regime change" justification. Pathetic really. Iraq has been trumpled over, and all you lot got to say is - "Well Sadams gone", really, just... >.<

Deaths caused by other muslims. Coalition death toll is actually below Saddams death toll.

[SixTen]

Deaths caused by other muslims. Coalition death toll is actually below Saddams death toll.

You didn't answer my question. (also dubious about your statistics)

Was, all the turmoil, the destruction of the whole nation pretty much, and the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed - a good call by the US, for the removal of Sadam?

[Izyan]

are you willing to condemn the american terrorism in Iraq? or will you ignore it and probaly say its not terrorism.

I'm willing to condemn all those that act outside of the UCMJ.

[Izyan]

I think whats going on in Iraq and afganisistan is a very childish retalliation act, my partner is being expected to go and fight in one of these two destination for the UK Army and he is on the verge of discharging himself because fighting for no particular reason was not what he signed up for, saving people and countries was.

Your partner wouldn't be going to Iraq because the UK is no longer there. What would you have had the US do in response to 9/11 instead of go into Afghanistan?

[SixTen]

Your partner wouldn't be going to Iraq because the UK is no longer there. What would you have had the US do in response to 9/11 instead of go into Afghanistan?

You may wish to explain, what was achieved by going to Afghanistan.

[buddy1]

Your partner wouldn't be going to Iraq because the UK is no longer there. What would you have had the US do in response to 9/11 instead of go into Afghanistan?

To be 100% honest with you, I wouldnt know what I have done, but i certainly dont think, barging in to a coutry where the vast majority didnt agree with what happened, and shooting, bombing and what not was the best solution, in reality Im sure there were plenty of other ways of dealing with it before the drastic action. two wrongs dont make a right, surely.

As for him not going to Iraq, thats good, but it still leaves Afganistan to wrry about. :(

[The_Prince]

Your partner wouldn't be going to Iraq because the UK is no longer there. What would you have had the US do in response to 9/11 instead of go into Afghanistan?

not stay occupiers of a country for more than 7 years. its time the soldiers pack their bags and go home.

[buddy1]

not stay occupiers of a country for more than 7 years. its time the soldiers pack their bags and go home.

100 million percent behind you on that! bring the boys home!!

woop!

[The_Prince]

Your partner wouldn't be going to Iraq because the UK is no longer there. What would you have had the US do in response to 9/11 instead of go into Afghanistan?

izyan why dont you go fight, you have a soldiers lady on this forum saying shes against it, and so is her man, and this is the majority view, hence if you support all these wars etc etc then really why dont you go to afghanistan and do Bush and Cheyneys dirty work.

[buddy1]

izyan why dont you go fight, you have a soldiers lady on this forum saying shes against it, and so is her man, and this is the majority view, hence if you support all these wars etc etc then really why dont you go to afghanistan and do Bush and Cheyneys dirty work.

Im not againts stopping terrorism, I and I speak for my partner on this aswel, am just against the way its being done. My partner, is a muslim, (syed-hussain) and if he has to go before his honourable discharge is set then there is nothing he can do about it, but he is totally against it! as am I!

[nocturnal]

I think Vladimir Putin quite acutely discerned precisely what the problem was, when you look at the Syrian incursion comparative to Russia's confrontation with Georgia. Don't loose sight of the fact that we are now just days away from possibly the most crucial US presidential election for many years.

The global economy is in a tailspin, with US resources over-stretched by trying to bail out reckless financial institutions, and waging a war on 2 fronts with no end in sight. Amidst all this smouldering political and economic carnage is the incontrovertible truism that the Republicans no matter what, will want to hold on to power.

Clearly in the Republican camp, there's a critical paucity of a tangible, genuine reformist agenda, or, anyone who can execute it. Historically, their get out of jail card has always been national security. Something Karl Rove has been keen to asseverate. That in mind, the Syrian operation must have been to play up McCain's national security "experience", especially when he's taking debilitating blows in the polls.

Nothing else makes a more plausible case.

[buddy1]

6 words

WHAT

IS

THIS

WORLD

COMING

TO?

[nocturnal]

Your partner wouldn't be going to Iraq because the UK is no longer there. What would you have had the US do in response to 9/11 instead of go into Afghanistan?

Very simple:

Extensively review it's foreign policy, and cease extending unconditional support for the Zionist regime in israel, which as everyone knows, is a de facto proxy for american hegemony in the Middle East.

[Izyan]

You didn't answer my question. (also dubious about your statistics)

Was, all the turmoil, the destruction of the whole nation pretty much, and the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed - a good call by the US, for the removal of Sadam?

From a personal stand point yes. I feel safer with Saddam gone than when he was around although now I face a different challenge when I go since my family in Iraq now know that I'm an apostate

[Izyan]

You may wish to explain, what was achieved by going to Afghanistan.

Well they can't exactly have terror camps while we're there can they? There was an alqueda attack every 2 years on the US before we went in. There hasn't been one since.

[Izyan]

To be 100% honest with you, I wouldnt know what I have done, but i certainly dont think, barging in to a coutry where the vast majority didnt agree with what happened, and shooting, bombing and what not was the best solution, in reality Im sure there were plenty of other ways of dealing with it before the drastic action. two wrongs dont make a right, surely.

As for him not going to Iraq, thats good, but it still leaves Afganistan to wrry about. :(

We asked for Osama. They knew where he was and refused to turn him over. All they had to do was turn him in and there would have been no invasion.

[Izyan]

not stay occupiers of a country for more than 7 years. its time the soldiers pack their bags and go home.

Ok what would you have done?

[Izyan]

izyan why dont you go fight, you have a soldiers lady on this forum saying shes against it, and so is her man, and this is the majority view, hence if you support all these wars etc etc then really why dont you go to afghanistan and do Bush and Cheyneys dirty work.

alas I don't think I wouldn't make a good fighter after having surgery on my eye but I do seend the troops care packages. I write them letters and I visit them at the VA

[anatolian]

Ignorance is the biggest problem here in the US not hypocrisy. Typically we do not know much about the world beyond our own town and have no idea at all what our leaders in Washington DC do. For most of us Washington is just a place far away and we don't seem to care what they do, it has no direct effect on us, or so we fool ourselves into believing.

I believed the same thing until mr.bush junior was elected for twice after all such things revealed by also some americans like micheal moore...

But now,unfortunately, I think some different about the American nation.They seem don't care so much what their leaders are planning, what their soldiers are doing..etc They simply don't care what they are doing...They are playing the three monkeys...

by the way Barney samething applies to England.

[Izyan]

Very simple:

Extensively review it's foreign policy, and cease extending unconditional support for the Zionist regime in israel, which as everyone knows, is a de facto proxy for american hegemony in the Middle East.

So in other words Al Queda attacks the US and we're supposed to go oh well we had it coming I guess we should abandon Israel?

[barney]

i can easily go find several comments by westerners who applaud this, just come to youtube and click on some anti-Islamic videos and enjoy the comment section where many westerners boast about killing several Muslims in Iraq.

Ahh yes . You Tube.
I will refer you to the answers muslims give me when I look up youtube footage of muslim celebrations of beheadings and civilain slaughter by the thousand.

"You-Tube????!!!! Lol, LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

[The_Prince]

Ok what would you have done?

i wouldnt stay there for 7 years, and i wouldnt start bombing the neighboring country.

[The_Prince]

Ahh yes . You Tube.
I will refer you to the answers muslims give me when I look up youtube footage of muslim celebrations of beheadings and civilain slaughter by the thousand.

"You-Tube????!!!! Lol, LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

youtube yes youtube, you act like youtube is some small site, it is the 2nd highest site on the planet, and many of these videos recieve views of up to more than 50,000 views.

there are several anti-Islamic videos on youtube with over 100,000 to 800,000 views, and in those videos are filled with such comments, so again its not something small and insignificant.

[The_Prince]

Ahh yes . You Tube.
I will refer you to the answers muslims give me when I look up youtube footage of muslim celebrations of beheadings and civilain slaughter by the thousand.

"You-Tube????!!!! Lol, LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

this is the same youtube where a british bigot named pat condell is in the top 100 highest subs, and he recently got into richard dawkins orginzation and they are putting him out there. so yes youtube, it does have an impact.

[barney]

Yup, I subscribe to pats vids, but also to several muslim hate-ranters. Always good to get a balance of veiws. (Hence my presence here). I dont agree with everything he says, and I dont agree wth everything the hatespeakers and Jihadists say.

Pat may have plenty of subscribers, but if you actually listen to what he's saying, he dosnt hate muslims, he hates the religion....in the aspect that it affects his country.

Imagine 1.7 million christians freely preaching worshipping prolatarilyzing and very occassionaly, very very occassionally bombing trains in Saudi Arabia.

Might you not find a Saudi version of Pat as an extremist response?
Actually no. You wouldnt be able to imagine that...It couldnt happen. If One christian preaches in a muslim state, she will face deportation or a driveby shooting.

[SixTen]

Well they can't exactly have terror camps while we're there can they? There was an alqueda attack every 2 years on the US before we went in. There hasn't been one since.

And you have, concluded this is because, they invaded Afghanistan?

Lets see, if this invasion, really did affect Al Qaeda, what have they been up to recently?

:exhausted

Oct. 7, 2004 and July 23, 2005: Attacks on three Sinai resorts in Egypt killed a total of 97 people. The October 2004 attack in Taba and Ras ****an killed 34 people, including 11 Israelis. A triple-bombing in July in Sharm el-Sheik killed at least 63 people. Three groups, including two claiming links to Al Qaeda, have said they carried out the Sharm attacks.

— March 11, 2004: Attack on four commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, killed 191 people and injured more than 1,600. The bombings were blamed on Islamic militants with suspected ties to Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said the two bombers had visited Afghanistan and investigators were looking for any Al Qaeda links. (makes you wonder, what US was doing eh)
— Aug. 5, 2003: A suicide bomber kills 12 people and wounds 150 at the J.W. Marriott hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia. Authorities blame Jemaah Islamiyah, a Southeast Asian group linked to Al Qaeda.

— May 16, 2003: Bomb attacks in Morocco kill at least 28 people and wound more than 100. The government blames "international terrorism," and local militant groups linked to Al Qaeda.

— May 12, 2003: Four explosions rock Riyadh, in an attack on compounds housing Americans, other Westerners and Saudis. The attack kills 35 people, including eight Americans. Al Qaeda's wing in Saudi Arabia, which now goes by the name Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, claimed responsibility for the attack.

— Dec. 30, 2002: A gunman kills three American missionaries at a Southern Baptist hospital in Yemen. Yemeni officials say the gunman, sentenced to death in May, belonged to an Al Qaeda cell.

— Nov. 28, 2002: Suicide bombers kill 12 people at an Israeli-owned beach hotel in Kenya and two missiles narrowly miss an airliner carrying Israelis.

— Oct. 12, 2002: Nearly 200 people, including seven Americans, are killed in bombings in a nightclub district of the Indonesian island of Bali. Authorities blame Jemaah Islamiyah.

To suddenly say, oh well U.S hasn't been attacked, with the invasion being the factor - is just lunacy, really. Ever wondered, what, all those billions of dollars in security went into? Hmm...

Well, I rest my case, Al Qaeda don't seem dead at all.

[The_Prince]

Yup, I subscribe to pats vids, but also to several muslim hate-ranters. Always good to get a balance of veiws. (Hence my presence here). I dont agree with everything he says, and I dont agree wth everything the hatespeakers and Jihadists say.

Pat may have plenty of subscribers, but if you actually listen to what he's saying, he dosnt hate muslims, he hates the religion....in the aspect that it affects his country.

Imagine 1.7 million christians freely preaching worshipping prolatarilyzing and very occassionaly, very very occassionally bombing trains in Saudi Arabia.

Might you not find a Saudi version of Pat as an extremist response?
Actually no. You wouldnt be able to imagine that...I couldnt happen. If One christian preaches in a muslim state, she will face deportation or a driveby shooting.

not everyone who subs to pats videos are there to see both sides, 95% of his subs are people who actually fully support him, hence the 5 stars and 4.5 stars his videos always recieve. and just read the lovely comments in his videos.

lol he doesnt hate Muslims, HA, yes calling all of Saudia mentally ill? lol and then he had to change his words. mocking Muslim women in the burqa, calling us mentally ill for having religous beliefs, and stupid as well. oh yes and characterising believers as dogs for the way we pray, yesssssssss thats not hating the people, give me a break!

and you show your ignorance, there are hundreds of Christian preachers in the Muslim world, in egypt there are up to 10 million coptics, and across the mid-east countries of syria, jordan, and lebanon are filled with churches and christian preachers. the same applies to Muslim nations around the world.

and you keep mentioning Saudia as if they represent 1.8 billion Muslims and the more than 50 other Muslim countries.

[The_Prince]

Yup, I subscribe to pats vids, but also to several muslim hate-ranters. Always good to get a balance of veiws. (Hence my presence here). I dont agree with everything he says, and I dont agree wth everything the hatespeakers and Jihadists say.

Pat may have plenty of subscribers, but if you actually listen to what he's saying, he dosnt hate muslims, he hates the religion....in the aspect that it affects his country.

Imagine 1.7 million christians freely preaching worshipping prolatarilyzing and very occassionaly, very very occassionally bombing trains in Saudi Arabia.

Might you not find a Saudi version of Pat as an extremist response?
Actually no. You wouldnt be able to imagine that...It couldnt happen. If One christian preaches in a muslim state, she will face deportation or a driveby shooting.

secondly your country England does EVERYTHING that pat condell is complaining about, only you guys dont see the irony.

[nocturnal]

So in other words Al Queda attacks the US and we're supposed to go oh well we had it coming I guess we should abandon Israel?

The reason the US was attacked on 9/11 and before that in East Africa was precisely because of it's stance towars Israel. You have a very ignorant, and simplistic notion of how things work in international affairs.

This is not as simple as Al Qa'ida vs US (and it's cronies). The entire international community has laid down firm preconditions for peace in the middle east which israel has routinely violated.

Cease settlements
Withdraw from all occupied territories to the 1967 borders
Lift the seiges, blockades, sanctions and military incursions
Guarantee the right of return from Palestinians who were uprooted and exiled.

The failure of Israel to observe these conditions is what spawned the likes of Al Qai'da, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. Oppression justifies resistance.

If the US called on Israel to lead the way in negotiations by implementing the aforementioned conditions, it may well have resulted in widespread international support and enhance american credibility, and also turned moderates in the Muslim world against the likes of Al Qa'ida.

It is the cataclysmic failure to do that, which has resulted in popularizing immensely the very same movements which the US today deems terrorist organizations.

[nocturnal]

From a personal stand point yes. I feel safer with Saddam gone than when he was around although now I face a different challenge when I go since my family in Iraq now know that I'm an apostate

Again, the campaigns which were undetaken by Saddam, were done so with the direct approval of the US, and with the military ordnance provided by the US administration during the Iran-Iraq war.

[nocturnal]

Deaths caused by other muslims. Coalition death toll is actually below Saddams death toll.

Not true, look at figures from Iraq Body Count. The occupation forces have been the principal protagonists in reducing Iraq to an archetypal failed state. There is international consensus about this. In Spain and Australia, it led to the ouster of two conservative governments. Here in the UK, there's increasing pressure to withdraw, and even in international institutions, there pressure is now mounting for an effective exit strategy. But is the Bush administration taking heed of that? no, in fact, they're keen to entrench themsevles by concluding rapidly, a status of forces agreement.

[nocturnal]

Im not saying that there aren't any rogue elements out there that inflict shocking harm on fellow Muslims, but by and large, even differences between Sunni and Shia are graudally being put aside as the realization becomes ever more apparent that only with the total ejection of US forces, can Iraq forge ahead with the task of economic, political and social reconstrution. Al Maliki is nothing more than an amenable lackey, just as Diem was in Vietnam.

It will only be a matter of time before a borad political movement encompassing all the various nationalist Iraqi movements are incorporated into it, and it will commence the task of much needed political reform, aimed at emancipating Iraq from the ruinous yoke of american neo-colonialism.

[wth1257]

This isn't some isolated incident. Syria has been a problem for a long time. If a group of jihadists cross the border and become involved in attacks on U.S. forces, those U.S. forces will retaliate. It's understandable that Syria is upset, but perhaps this will make them more proactive in sealing their border crossings.

The Iraqi government demands the US turn over all BlackWater soldiers accused of indiscriminate killing of Iraqi civilians. Rather than doing so the US continue to allow such soldiers to simply be fired and returned home. I response to this the Iraqi's sen an Iraqi army specail opps unit to infilitrate the US and capture the BlackWater soldiers. In the ensueing firefight 24 innocent US civilians are killed because they happen to live in the BW soldiers apartment building, 12 of which are children.

What would be the reaction of the US's civilian populace?

Because I'm willing to bet there would be hell to pay for this violate of our sovereignity and the deaths of our civilians.

[Keltoi]

The Iraqi government demands the US turn over all BlackWater soldiers accused of indiscriminate killing of Iraqi civilians. Rather than doing so the US continue to allow such soldiers to simply be fired and returned home. I response to this the Iraqi's sen an Iraqi army specail opps unit to infilitrate the US and capture the BlackWater soldiers. In the ensueing firefight 24 innocent US civilians are killed because they happen to live in the BW soldiers apartment building, 12 of which are children.

What would be the reaction of the US's civilian populace?

Because I'm willing to bet there would be hell to pay for this violate of our sovereignity and the deaths of our civilians.

Blackwater is a mercenary group hired out by companies to protect VIPs and convoys. They are not sanctioned by the U.S. military. There have already been indictments in the Blackwater convoy shooting case, and it looks like the case will go to a federal grand jury rather soon. As American citizens they will be tried under American statutes. People will be going to jail as a result.

[wth1257]

Blackwater is a mercenary group hired out by companies to protect VIPs and convoys.

I know what Blackwater is

They are not sanctioned by the U.S. military.

No, but they do work for the US government and have been given wide liberties and immunities while opperating in Iraq

There have already been indictments in the Blackwater convoy shooting case, and it looks like the case will go to a federal grand jury rather soon. As American citizens they will be tried under American statutes. People will be going to jail as a result.

Besides the fact that they ought to be tried in Iraq where they actually commited their crimes that one incident has absolutly nothing to do with my point.

I have asked you a hypothetical, how do you think the US populace would respond? Do you think they would say, "well sucks for those kids but the Bush Administration has to learn" or would there be widespread outrage?

[coddles76]

From what I understand the U.S. military followed some jihadist types across the Syrian border and assaulted them there. They have been crossing the border, doing whatever it is they do, and then retreating back into Syria. If Syria wants to shout about "serious aggression" they need to reign in those who take advantage of the border to inflict damage on the Iraqi people and Coalition forces.

LOL Thats the funniest response I've heard in centuries. Thanks for the laugh.

[coddles76]

Firstly, terrorists hide in civilian areas. That is part of their strategy.

lol Thanks for another laugh. I guess you have just added to the statistics of the majority who have no individual brains to think for themselves and fall to the prey of the propaganda and brainwashing steam train held by the one and ONLY terrorists which threaten our civilisation.

[Karl]

excellent verse, it perfectly describes the situation.

The USA was born from genocide of the Natives ...do you think these guys are going to stop...they have a plan to genocide and control all that is not in their image... that suits their way of life ...if Islam will not change it will be destroyed ...so False Muslims are being created in the West ...are put into powerful positions to usurp the real ones ...wake up people!! ...these guys are evil and they know it

[islamirama]

Syrian minister accuses U.S. of "terrorist aggression"



LONDON (Reuters) – Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moualem accused the United States on Monday of carrying out a "terrorist aggression" on Syria after a deadly raid which Damascus said killed eight civilians.


"The Americans do it in the daylight, this means it is not a mistake, its by blunt determination. For that we consider this criminal and terrorist aggression," Moualem told a news conference in London.


He said Syria will ask the United States and Iraq for an investigation into the attack, which took place in the Albou Kamal area in eastern Syria on Sunday. Baghdad has said the strike targeted insurgents who attack Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081027/ts_nm/us_iraq_syria_moualem_1

[nocturnal]

The Iraqis themselves are insisting on prosecuting crimes committed by mercenary groups like Blackwater inside Iraq where the atrocities were perpetrated. As an occupation force, granting the US military and its affiliates (of which blackwater is one), unashamed immunity from prosecution based on the Iraqi judicial system is tantamount to simply issuing them with a blank cheque to go on killing indiscriminately and relentlessly.

If the threat of Iraqi prosecution were there, perhaps even the most diabolical of elements within US forces and mercenaries would think carefully before embarking on killing sprees, but bestowing on them total freedom in that manner is just absurd and sets dangerous precedents.

[wth1257]

The Iraqis themselves are insisting on prosecuting crimes committed by mercenary groups like Blackwater inside Iraq where the atrocities were perpetrated. As an occupation force, granting the US military and its affiliates (of which blackwater is one), unashamed immunity from prosecution based on the Iraqi judicial system is tantamount to simply issuing them with a blank cheque to go on killing indiscriminately and relentlessly.

If the threat of Iraqi prosecution were there, perhaps even the most diabolical of elements within US forces and mercenaries would think carefully before embarking on killing sprees, but bestowing on them total freedom in that manner is just absurd and sets dangerous precedents.

They can be tried in the US however as late as 2008 not a single one had been prosecuted.

[Keltoi]

I have asked you a hypothetical, how do you think the US populace would respond? Do you think they would say, "well sucks for those kids but the Bush Administration has to learn" or would there be widespread outrage?

I'm sure there is outrage in Syria. As long as terrorists are crossing the border to carry out attacks that outrage means nothing. Stop jihadists from crossing the border and the problem goes away. Do you expect the U.S. military to just shrug their shoulders and say "aww shucks" when they see cross border incursions into Iraq with the intent to destabilize the country?

[Keltoi]

lol Thanks for another laugh. I guess you have just added to the statistics of the majority who have no individual brains to think for themselves and fall to the prey of the propaganda and brainwashing steam train held by the one and ONLY terrorists which threaten our civilisation.

Yeah, you're right. The brave freedom fighters stand out in the desert and face U.S. forces in righteous conventional warfare far from civilian cover. My bad.

[Izyan]

Again, the campaigns which were undetaken by Saddam, were done so with the direct approval of the US, and with the military ordnance provided by the US administration during the Iran-Iraq war.

You don't know much about the Iraqi military do you. The US does not produce:

T-55
T-72
AK47
Dassault Mirage F.1EQ
MiG-21
Tu-22KD/KDP

All of which came from France and the soviets. We were given 2 transport helicopters from the US. That's it.

[MO783]

:sl:

May Allah those who are in difficulty

Ameen

[Izyan]

The reason the US was attacked on 9/11 and before that in East Africa was precisely because of it's stance towars Israel. You have a very ignorant, and simplistic notion of how things work in international affairs.

This is not as simple as Al Qa'ida vs US (and it's cronies). The entire international community has laid down firm preconditions for peace in the middle east which israel has routinely violated.

Cease settlements
Withdraw from all occupied territories to the 1967 borders
Lift the seiges, blockades, sanctions and military incursions
Guarantee the right of return from Palestinians who were uprooted and exiled.

The failure of Israel to observe these conditions is what spawned the likes of Al Qai'da, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. Oppression justifies resistance.

If the US called on Israel to lead the way in negotiations by implementing the aforementioned conditions, it may well have resulted in widespread international support and enhance american credibility, and also turned moderates in the Muslim world against the likes of Al Qa'ida.

It is the cataclysmic failure to do that, which has resulted in popularizing immensely the very same movements which the US today deems terrorist organizations.

You mean like the Roadmap to Peace? The US has always been an honest broker. Your terms are unacceptable to muslims. It is all or nothing.

[Izyan]

The USA was born from genocide of the Natives ...do you think these guys are going to stop...they have a plan to genocide and control all that is not in their image... that suits their way of life ...if Islam will not change it will be destroyed ...so False Muslims are being created in the West ...are put into powerful positions to usurp the real ones ...wake up people!! ...these guys are evil and they know it

Well with Keltoi being native I'm sure he will tell you that things aren't as black and white as you think they are.

[nocturnal]

You don't know much about the Iraqi military do you. The US does not produce:

T-55
T-72
AK47
Dassault Mirage F.1EQ
MiG-21
Tu-22KD/KDP

All of which came from France and the soviets. We were given 2 transport helicopters from the US. That's it.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/506/27605

http://brasschecktv.com/page/17.html

[nocturnal]

You mean like the Roadmap to Peace? The US has always been an honest broker. Your terms are unacceptable to muslims. It is all or nothing.

Israel has systematically with help from the west violated egregiously the rights of the Palestinian people which is enshrined in international law. This is undeniable.

The terms i outlined are not mine, they are of the Palestinians, the Muslim world and the international community at large. And let me remind you unreservedly, that the Palestinians, just as they rejected the 1947 partition plan, are under no obligation to accept a 2 state solution. Yet they are accepting one.

What does this tell you in terms of the concessions being made to the zionist regime?

[Izyan]

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/506/27605

How about a legit site?

In December 2002, Iraq's 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries, as well as individuals, that exported a total of 17,602 tons of "dual use" chemical precursors to Iraq in the past two decades, with potential for both industrial uses and manufacture of chemical weapons. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Federal Republic of Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.

http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif

[Izyan]

Israel has systematically with help from the west violated egregiously the rights of the Palestinian people which is enshrined in international law. This is undeniable.

The terms i outlined are not mine, they are of the Palestinians, the Muslim world and the international community at large. And let me remind you unreservedly, that the Palestinians, just as they rejected the 1947 partition plan, are under no obligation to accept a 2 state solution. Yet they are accepting one.

What does this tell you in terms of the concessions being made to the zionist regime?

They are not accepting a 2 state solution. HAMAS has publicly stated that this is only to ensure a ceasefire so they can rebuild to finish the job. Ask any muslim here. Muslims are not allowed to give up 1 inch of Palestine and that includes all of Israel.

[nocturnal]

They are not accepting a 2 state solution. HAMAS has publicly stated that this is only to ensure a ceasefire so they can rebuild to finish the job. Ask any muslim here. Muslims are not allowed to give up 1 inch of Palestine and that includes all of Israel.

Ofcourse they're not allowed to, there is no secret to this. Palestine cannot be forsaken. This is in the conscience of every Muslim.

Given the prevailing circumstances at the moment, Hamas itself has offered a ceasefire with israel in return for lifting the crippling embargo on Gaza, and easing the checkpoints in the West Bank.

Why should Hamas accept the legitimacy of the state of israel? The issue is not between Muslims and Jews, it is the validity of the zionist doctrine which has led to the situation in the middle east today. During the administration of FDR, assurances were given, especially to the Saudis, that no decision would be taken to recognize a jewish homeland in Palestine, yet upon his death, Truman not only recognized it, but expedited the entire process.

Such perfidious actions are reminiscent of the British betrayal of the Arabs in the aftermath of the first world war when the Ottomans were defeated, and the Balfour declaration subsequently issued.

Israel has done in Palestine what the US did to the native Inidians, it systematically sought to exterminate them. Hamas cannot recongnize israel, asking them to do this is like asking the Jews not to recognize the holocaust.

Yet, they have made concessions for a ceasefire, one which is subject to extensions and that, if worked on assiduously, will result in a lasting peace. Do not speak ignorantly of a subject of which you know little or nothing.

[The_Prince]

They are not accepting a 2 state solution. HAMAS has publicly stated that this is only to ensure a ceasefire so they can rebuild to finish the job. Ask any muslim here. Muslims are not allowed to give up 1 inch of Palestine and that includes all of Israel.

you keep saying Muslim this Muslim that as if to assume that the Jews can give up land, many Jews thanks to the book you call 'Holy' believe the whole land is theirs, and more should be taken as well for the vision of greater Israel.

you are a Christian, it is a part of your racist bigoted view that the land only belongs to the Jews and the others there are inferior people to the chosen ones, and that eventually Jesus will come back and save Israel and destroy all the others.

so why dont you mention these facts as well instead of comming here acting like an angel and that it is only Muslims who are not allowed to do this or that.

[crayon]

WASHINGTON — The Syrian cabinet decided on Tuesday to close the American School and an American cultural center in Damascus, the capital, after a raid into Syria on Sunday by United States Special Operations forces, the official SANA news agency said.



The decision was the first retaliation against the United States by Syria, which has accused it of “terrorist aggression” in the raid.
Syria said eight civilians were killed in the attack. But American officials said the raid by American helicopter-borne forces killed an Iraqi militant responsible for running weapons, money and foreign fighters across the border into Iraq, and that all the people killed in the assault were militants.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/wo...rssnyt&emc=rss

[Izyan]

you keep saying Muslim this Muslim that as if to assume that the Jews can give up land, many Jews thanks to the book you call 'Holy' believe the whole land is theirs, and more should be taken as well for the vision of greater Israel.

you are a Christian, it is a part of your racist bigoted view that the land only belongs to the Jews and the others there are inferior people to the chosen ones, and that eventually Jesus will come back and save Israel and destroy all the others.

so why dont you mention these facts as well instead of comming here acting like an angel and that it is only Muslims who are not allowed to do this or that.

Ha ha ha ha. I can't breathe. This must be torture cause I'm dying. I'm coming to see you Elizabeth.

[Anette]

The problem began when USA politician decided to went to "war against terrorism". It is equivalent with not listen to UN and move the target when the politician decide to do so and also to arbitrary take the role of a global conscience, independent of how many countries they will invade.

My thoughts go to the familys that suffers.

[Izyan]

The problem began when USA politician decided to went to "war against terrorism". It is equivalent with not listen to UN and move the target when the politician decide to do so and also to arbitrary take the role of a global conscience, independent of how many countries they will invade.

My thoughts go to the familys that suffers.

I say we bring all troops home from everywhere it's not our problem. North Korea said today they wanted to reduce South Korea to ruble. Not our problem. Genocide in Dafur? Not our problem.

[Muezzin]

Guys, I know that somehow Israel and Palestine is connected to just about every World Affairs topic posted, but it would be really nice if we could localise this one to the attack at hand.

Translation: From this point, off-topic posts will be deleted.

[barney]

It looks like the 140000 year old habit of tribal type war is back with us after a 80 year holiday.
The people who used to cross the border , steal the cattle then sneak back and blame it on bandits are back in the form of people who cross the border blow up a bus and shrug their shoulders when confronted by it.

The US however IMO simply cant go crossing borders like that. Mine the whole border, if the iraqi's want to. Really It is up to the Iraqi Govenment on how they want to deal with this. I wonder if this cross border raid had their support.

CBA reading the whole thread, but I assume that its been pointed out that the US claims they killed Abu Ghadiya in the attack.

Another point is they put boots on the ground so that the dead people were the insurgants rather than civilians being killed by a bomb launched 70 miles away.

[Keltoi]

The US however IMO simply cant go crossing borders like that. Mine the whole border, if the iraqi's want to. Really It is up to the Iraqi Govenment on how they want to deal with this. I wonder if this cross border raid had their support.

Actually the Iraqi government did support it. They sent a response to Syria stating that the attack was against insurgents who have been crossing the border to inflict harm on the Iraqi people and destabilize the government.

[barney]

Actually the Iraqi government did support it. They sent a response to Syria stating that the attack was against insurgents who have been crossing the border to inflict harm on the Iraqi people and destabilize the government.

OK , well thats still provocative. When fighting evil, you have to fight with both hands tied behind your back.

If anyone wants me to clarify "Evil" i'm happy to do so.

[wth1257]

Yeah, you're right. The brave freedom fighters stand out in the desert and face U.S. forces in righteous conventional warfare far from civilian cover. My bad.

I will never condone useing civilian as human shields however lets not pretend that would be a fair fight

[seeker-of-light]

it is the leaders of america who are the fools not the people. the average american either disapproves of usa action taken in muslim countries or they are uneducated as to what is really happening and so just listen to the political leaders and what they say.

[The_Prince]

Ha ha ha ha. I can't breathe. This must be torture cause I'm dying. I'm coming to see you Elizabeth.

laugh all you want the facts remain and everything i said is true, as they say truth hurts.

so again, instead of point fingers at what Muslims can do or not, go look at your own Jewish 'chosen' people and your fellow evangelical Christians.

[Keltoi]

I will never condone useing civilian as human shields however lets not pretend that would be a fair fight

A fair fight? No However, if you choose to fight you choose the strategy. The strategy of the insurgents is to concentrate on those they can kill, meaning those that can't fight back. Morality in war is sometimes an abstract concept, but I would hope we could agree that if a faction decides to wage war they will do so in a way that intends to limit civilian death, not focus on it.

[Keltoi]

OK , well thats still provocative. When fighting evil, you have to fight with both hands tied behind your back.

If anyone wants me to clarify "Evil" i'm happy to do so.

I agree with you. There is a line that civilized nations should not cross, even if the goal is to fight evil. There is a famous quote from someone I can't recall which stated that if all good people got together and decided to kill all the evil people there would be nobody left. (that is a butchering of the quote, but that is the gist of it)

[coddles76]

Yeah, you're right. The brave freedom fighters stand out in the desert and face U.S. forces in righteous conventional warfare far from civilian cover. My bad.

lol Another funny comment. Once again another ridiculous statement coming from another statistic. I'd rather hear your own brain waves talking instead of just relaying information you hear in the media.
I guess the brave U.S Forces dropping Bombs from the sky into civilian areas killing enormous amounts of innocent people is your idea of "righteous conventional warfare".

[Woodrow]

it is the leaders of america who are the fools not the people. the average american either disapproves of usa action taken in muslim countries or they are uneducated as to what is really happening and so just listen to the political leaders and what they say.

Sadly, there is much truth in that.


I find that us Americans have very little knowledge as to what happens in our government. I suspect we have a number that do not even know where Washington DC is. To many Americans it seems that they view anything outside of their own state as being a foreign country.

Just from personal observations.

1. The average American does not vote in any elections, but complains about whoever is elected/

2. The average American does not know the names of the senators and congressmen who represent his state.

3. Many Americans do not know the differences between federal, state and local government.

4. As a whole we do not seem to know of any legislation our lawmakers have pending.

5. We are blind or stupid about any action that takes place in Washington. Which reminds me it seems many Americans think Washington state and Washington DC are the same place.

6, Many Americans do not realise or understand that Washington DC (our capitol) is not located in any State. It is surrounded by Maryland and Virginia, but the District of Columbia is not located in any state.

I wonder if we ever will wake up and take our government back from the District of Columbia and return to State Rights. Will we ever once again be a government for the people?

[Anette]

I say we bring all troops home from everywhere it's not our problem. North Korea said today they wanted to reduce South Korea to ruble. Not our problem. Genocide in Dafur? Not our problem.

Ok, you mean all or nothing? Nobody can help anyone if US not allowed random attacks in the Middle East? Sometimes looking för massdistruction weapons and sometimes "the random enemy".

Korea is a sad history ever since 1950. Another war ending up in nothing but a deadlock and dead civilians cought in between two at that time leading superpowers. Dafur - history shows that oil can be a curse - this time it was China last time it was US that wanted oil supply keep on coming. China, US, USSR - big giants setting the agenda, telling "us" who the enemy is and the consequence is a growing misdirected hate and fear against all muslims around the world, the faceless enemy, that was invented when US went off to "war against terrorism".

At the same time many people die - and not "only" the "guilty" ones.

As long as power, money, resources, revenge, hate, fear and many other things has direct influence in the UN/US political military agenda - instead of finding peace or strive to unify shattered people or fight for what everyone concider to be a just cause - then meaningless never ending wars will keep on coming around the world. That´s our problem.

[north_malaysian]

As long as power, money, resources, revenge, hate, fear and many other things has direct influence in the UN/US political military agenda - instead of finding peace or strive to unify shattered people or fight for what everyone concider to be a just cause - then meaningless never ending wars will keep on coming around the world. That´s our problem.

Wow...:thumbs_up

[north_malaysian]

Sadly, there is much truth in that.


I find that us Americans have very little knowledge as to what happens in our government. I suspect we have a number that do not even know where Washington DC is. To many Americans it seems that they view anything outside of their own state as being a foreign country.

Just from personal observations.

1. The average American does not vote in any elections, but complains about whoever is elected/

2. The average American does not know the names of the senators and congressmen who represent his state.

3. Many Americans do not know the differences between federal, state and local government.

4. As a whole we do not seem to know of any legislation our lawmakers have pending.

5. We are blind or stupid about any action that takes place in Washington. Which reminds me it seems many Americans think Washington state and Washington DC are the same place.

6, Many Americans do not realise or understand that Washington DC (our capitol) is not located in any State. It is surrounded by Maryland and Virginia, but the District of Columbia is not located in any state.

I wonder if we ever will wake up and take our government back from the District of Columbia and return to State Rights. Will we ever once again be a government for the people?

It must be hard for you to explain these to other fellow non-American Muslims....

But at least ... you've convinced me that a great majority of Americans are nice peeps....:thumbs_up

[Keltoi]

Ok, you mean all or nothing? Nobody can help anyone if US not allowed random attacks in the Middle East? Sometimes looking för massdistruction weapons and sometimes "the random enemy".

That assumes attacks are random. They are anything but.

Korea is a sad history ever since 1950. Another war ending up in nothing but a deadlock and dead civilians cought in between two at that time leading superpowers. Dafur - history shows that oil can be a curse - this time it was China last time it was US that wanted oil supply keep on coming. China, US, USSR - big giants setting the agenda, telling "us" who the enemy is and the consequence is a growing misdirected hate and fear against all muslims around the world, the faceless enemy, that was invented when US went off to "war against terrorism".

Terrorism is not a "faceless" enemy. They may cover their faces when they put out beheading propoganda videos, but Bin Laden and Zawahiri show their faces as much as they can. At least Zawahiri does, Bin laden's absence is striking. Pretending that no threat exists and that no enemy exists is either naive or blind.

At the same time many people die - and not "only" the "guilty" ones.

That much is true.

As long as power, money, resources, revenge, hate, fear and many other things has direct influence in the UN/US political military agenda - instead of finding peace or strive to unify shattered people or fight for what everyone concider to be a just cause - then meaningless never ending wars will keep on coming around the world. That´s our problem.

That is a very utopian view. If only the U.S. would listen to everyone else about what is important for our security the world would progress into an earthly paradise. Find a just cause that everyone would agree on? I'm afraid that is quite impossible. The U.N. is a broken body. Each country is aiming for their own long-term interests. They couldn't agree on the color of the sky.

Power, money, resources, revenge, hate, and fear are not U.S. or U.N. motivations, they are the motivations of every nation out there. Both enemies and allies.

[Izyan]

laugh all you want the facts remain and everything i said is true, as they say truth hurts.

so again, instead of point fingers at what Muslims can do or not, go look at your own Jewish 'chosen' people and your fellow evangelical Christians.

You don't know many christians do you? We don't hold any land sacred in the same terms as muslims or Jews do. you can destroy every church you see and we would still congregate and be merry. Even Jesus destroyed the church when he died. Sure we like the Holy Land as a link to our spirtuality but it don't make us who we are. It's just bricks and mortar no one else. We see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict more as a right for survival than in biblical terms. Not to say there aren't loons out there like Pat Robertson but they are in the minority

[Izyan]

Ok, you mean all or nothing? Nobody can help anyone if US not allowed random attacks in the Middle East? Sometimes looking för massdistruction weapons and sometimes "the random enemy".

Korea is a sad history ever since 1950. Another war ending up in nothing but a deadlock and dead civilians cought in between two at that time leading superpowers. Dafur - history shows that oil can be a curse - this time it was China last time it was US that wanted oil supply keep on coming. China, US, USSR - big giants setting the agenda, telling "us" who the enemy is and the consequence is a growing misdirected hate and fear against all muslims around the world, the faceless enemy, that was invented when US went off to "war against terrorism".

At the same time many people die - and not "only" the "guilty" ones.

As long as power, money, resources, revenge, hate, fear and many other things has direct influence in the UN/US political military agenda - instead of finding peace or strive to unify shattered people or fight for what everyone concider to be a just cause - then meaningless never ending wars will keep on coming around the world. That´s our problem.

Well how can you tell the good conflicts from the bad conflicts? I say it's nothing or nothing. I'm tired of the US doing all the heavy lifting and getting all the grief. I say we go back to the Monroe Doctrine and let the rest of the world settle their own problems.

[The_Prince]

You don't know many christians do you? We don't hold any land sacred in the same terms as muslims or Jews do. you can destroy every church you see and we would still congregate and be merry. Even Jesus destroyed the church when he died. Sure we like the Holy Land as a link to our spirtuality but it don't make us who we are. It's just bricks and mortar no one else. We see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict more as a right for survival than in biblical terms. Not to say there aren't loons out there like Pat Robertson but they are in the minority

i dont think anyone has to really destroy your Churches, you guys are doing a fine job of closing them down by yourselves due to low attendances, merryyyyy indeed.

[Keltoi]

i dont think anyone has to really destroy your Churches, you guys are doing a fine job of closing them down by yourselves due to low attendances, merryyyyy indeed.

Better to have five people of genuine faith than a million who simply "go to church".

[nocturnal]

You don't know many christians do you? We don't hold any land sacred in the same terms as muslims or Jews do. you can destroy every church you see and we would still congregate and be merry. Even Jesus destroyed the church when he died. Sure we like the Holy Land as a link to our spirtuality but it don't make us who we are. It's just bricks and mortar no one else. We see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict more as a right for survival than in biblical terms. Not to say there aren't loons out there like Pat Robertson but they are in the minority

That is the problem. Al Quds to us is so much more than just bricks and mortar. It is the sister of Makkah and Medinah, from were the prophet(saw) ascended to the heavens. If you believe that the US needs to stop intefering in the affairs of other nations, then thats finally something we can agree upon. It is what we, collectively Muslims, and millions of people all over the world too have been stating.

But the US will never cease it's destructive, interventionist policies in the world. This is the intrinsic nature of the American body politic. Palestine must be and Insha'Allah will be emancipated. You need to stop percieveing the the US government as a pacifist, honest broker in international affairs. Everywhere it has muddled, it has wrought havoc and destruction on unprecedented levels. Somalia, Vietnam, Iraq, Aghanistan, Nicaragua and also in it's support for dictators who massacre their own populations. This is particularly relevant to South America and Africa.

[Izyan]

That is the problem. Al Quds to us is so much more than just bricks and mortar. It is the sister of Makkah and Medinah, from were the prophet(saw) ascended to the heavens. If you believe that the US needs to stop intefering in the affairs of other nations, then thats finally something we can agree upon. It is what we, collectively Muslims, and millions of people all over the world too have been stating.

But the US will never cease it's destructive, interventionist policies in the world. This is the intrinsic nature of the American body politic. Palestine must be and Insha'Allah will be emancipated. You need to stop percieveing the the US government as a pacifist, honest broker in international affairs. Everywhere it has muddled, it has wrought havoc and destruction on unprecedented levels. Somalia, Vietnam, Iraq, Aghanistan, Nicaragua and also in it's support for dictators who massacre their own populations. This is particularly relevant to South America and Africa.

Germany, France, Italy, Japan, SKorea, Serbia, Phillipines. Yup nothing but kaos and havok there.

[Izyan]

i dont think anyone has to really destroy your Churches, you guys are doing a fine job of closing them down by yourselves due to low attendances, merryyyyy indeed.

And how many muslims are muslims just in name? There are tons of them. I know I used to be one of them

[aamirsaab]

... I say we go back to the Monroe Doctrine and let the rest of the world settle their own problems.

In addition to that, stop all funding of Israel and I'm in total agreement. Get out of other peoples' backyard an' all that!

[Anette]

That is a very utopian view. If only the U.S. would listen to everyone else about what is important for our security the world would progress into an earthly paradise. Find a just cause that everyone would agree on? I'm afraid that is quite impossible. The U.N. is a broken body. Each country is aiming for their own long-term interests. They couldn't agree on the color of the sky.

Power, money, resources, revenge, hate, and fear are not U.S. or U.N. motivations, they are the motivations of every nation out there. Both enemies and allies.

I´m curious, how can an US attack in Syria in any way be a threath against US security? Maybe a threath against what US has decided is their interest but not against US as a nation. US walk all over other countries borders like they have swinging doors, particular if the countries are placed in the Middle East. None so ever respect towards other countries sovereign. US made a hostile act against an other country in the name of US security, and the rest of the world should be happy about it? Maybe our political leaders will not condemn US but most of the people in different countries will. UN is a broken body bacause US decided that they are to good to be a part of the rest of the world. It is US way or the high way, and it will cost US a lot of respect I´m afraid.

[Anette]

Well how can you tell the good conflicts from the bad conflicts? I say it's nothing or nothing. I'm tired of the US doing all the heavy lifting and getting all the grief. I say we go back to the Monroe Doctrine and let the rest of the world settle their own problems.

Good conflict from the bad? Is there any good conflicts? If UN says no and US says yes - it is presumably a bad conflict.

I´m sorry, I do not think that US "doing all the heavy lifting" US are only lifting if they think it will benefit US somehow. The White Mans Burden has rosen in another shape. Teach the unciviliced to be civiliced - isn´t it a part of the Roosevelt Corollary, also talking about the worlds international police power?

In our history books the Monroe Doctrine is said to be a way for US to justify "interventions" in South- and Central America.

[Izyan]

Good conflict from the bad? Is there any good conflicts? If UN says no and US says yes - it is presumably a bad conflict.

I´m sorry, I do not think that US "doing all the heavy lifting" US are only lifting if they think it will benefit US somehow. The White Mans Burden has rosen in another shape. Teach the unciviliced to be civiliced - isn´t it a part of the Roosevelt Corollary, also talking about the worlds international police power?

In our history books the Monroe Doctrine is said to be a way for US to justify "interventions" in South- and Central America.

So the conflist is only good if the UN ok's it? Stopping Milosevich must have been bad since it wasn't approved by the UN. The Monroe Doctrine was an effort to keep Europe out of our affairs after the war of 1812.

[Keltoi]

I´m curious, how can an US attack in Syria in any way be a threath against US security? Maybe a threath against what US has decided is their interest but not against US as a nation. US walk all over other countries borders like they have swinging doors, particular if the countries are placed in the Middle East. None so ever respect towards other countries sovereign. US made a hostile act against an other country in the name of US security, and the rest of the world should be happy about it? Maybe our political leaders will not condemn US but most of the people in different countries will. UN is a broken body bacause US decided that they are to good to be a part of the rest of the world. It is US way or the high way, and it will cost US a lot of respect I´m afraid.

This issue wasn't about American mainland security, it was about Iraqi security. And of course the security of military forces in the Iraqi theater. The jihadists who cross the border from Syria are by and large intent upon committing terrorism against Iraqi civilians to destabilize the government.

As for the U.N., it is a broken body because of the veto power granted any member of the Security Council. It is broken because the only muscle the U.N. has is American and British military power. I will add Australia, Germany, etc, etc, for Coalition purposes. It is a paper tiger.

[Muezzin]

As Arnie might say:

'Get to da Topic!'

[nocturnal]

Germany, France, Italy, Japan, SKorea, Serbia, Phillipines. Yup nothing but kaos and havok there.

Don't look at the industrialized nations that the US has no option but to deal with. Look at individual cases in the Middle East and in Africa. You know what i mean, quit trying to play dumb.

[nocturnal]

So the conflist is only good if the UN ok's it? Stopping Milosevich must have been bad since it wasn't approved by the UN. The Monroe Doctrine was an effort to keep Europe out of our affairs after the war of 1812.

If you're ranting about the 1999 Nato bombing, then realize that things took a turn for the worst once the bombing had begun, and in it's aftermath.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20000314.htm

[Izyan]

If you're ranting about the 1999 Nato bombing, then realize that things took a turn for the worst once the bombing had begun, and in it's aftermath.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20000314.htm

Bringing up Chomsky is like me bringing up Daniel Pipes

[The_Prince]

Bringing up Chomsky is like me bringing up Daniel Pipes

lol daniel pipes is nothing close to chomsky. daniel pipes has called for cleansing of villages etc. get real.

[coddles76]

Destabilize the government.

LOL once again think outside the box you live in. The Government?? What Government. Oh your talking about the government that was invaded and installed with puppets that fulfill the American and Jewish Agenda all under the disguise of Terrorism and WMD (Which were never found). Now I know which government your talking about.
All borders were secure and living peacefully until the American Aggressors illegally invaded a soverign Country and decided to rule, stealing its precious resources and kill there civilians. Its people like you that continue to corrupt this world we live in. Disgusting!

[Keltoi]

LOL once again think outside the box you live in. The Government?? What Government. Oh your talking about the government that was invaded and installed with puppets that fulfill the American and Jewish Agenda all under the disguise of Terrorism and WMD (Which were never found). Now I know which government your talking about.
All borders were secure and living peacefully until the American Aggressors illegally invaded a soverign Country and decided to rule, stealing its precious resources and kill there civilians. Its people like you that continue to corrupt this world we live in. Disgusting!

A puppet regime? I suppose it is a puppet regime of the Americans and Jews that the Iraqi people risked their lives to come out and vote for. ^o)

[barney]

A puppet regime? I suppose it is a puppet regime of the Americans and Jews that the Iraqi people risked their lives to come out and vote for. ^o)

Nearly 80% turnout despite the risk of being bombed at the polling station as I recall.

[aamirsaab]

Nearly 80% turnout despite the risk of being bombed at the polling station as I recall.

They had little choice: no government (where mass rape, murder and the like will occur on a daily basis due to lack of security and order - it'd be survival of the fitest in its most purest form - which is actually disgusting) or A government, which would offer at the least some security to a country that has just been invaded, and with plenty of it's population on the brink of total war. In that predicament, I wouldn't hesitate to vote for any government -- in fact, I'd be there as soon as humanly possible!

Of course, I'd rather that Iraq wasn't invaded in the first place but whatever.

[nocturnal]

Bringing up Chomsky is like me bringing up Daniel Pipes

It's not about whom i bring up, but the evidence he puts forward that corroborates the fact that the atrocities took place right after observers were pulled out and the initial NATO bombing campaign commenced.

[AvarAllahNoor]

No outrage from other muslim nations, why is that do you think?

[aamirsaab]

No outrage from other muslim nations, why is that do you think?

1) they don't know
2) they don't care

Either way, it's bad :(

[AvarAllahNoor]

1) they don't know
2) they don't care

Either way, it's bad :(

How can they not know! - It's all over the joint. It's scary the ummah (as adivised) Isn't working together. Bizzare if you ask me.

[aamirsaab]

How can they not know! - It's all over the joint.

Perhaps, but I don't know much about the news coverage outside of the UK - maybe they do know, maybe they don't.

It's scary the ummah (as adivised) Isn't working together. Bizzare if you ask me.

In actuality, this point has been raised on many occasions at our local masjids, talks etc for quite some time now. I wish I knew how to unite the Ummah (I don't think I'm alone in this regard either), but the reality is that I don't. I'd say its more depressing than bizzare though.

[nocturnal]

Nearly 80% turnout despite the risk of being bombed at the polling station as I recall.

The people that you are talking about, are those who voted in the aftermath of the invasion, and who cast their votes in the false belief that the parties they were voting for were independent and free of US patronage. Al Maliki himself ran on pledges to speeden up the American withdrawal. We now know that this was a deceptive expedient, and the proof is in the mass protests that we see on a near daily basis from a cross-section of Iraqi society.

[coddles76]

A puppet regime? I suppose it is a puppet regime of the Americans and Jews that the Iraqi people risked their lives to come out and vote for. ^o)

Exactly they were voting for the American and Jews who now occupy and run the country, Illegally!!! I don't suppose you are thinking that people were actually voting for an iraqi Government. No matter who they voted for, the country is occupied and run by the U.S, Once again Illegally!!! So no matter what you witnessed in the media (Cause I know thats were you form your mentality), It was all propaganda to make us all think they were actually helping the poor Iraqi's who were living poorly before the Americans invaded. Illegally!!! They are actually worse off under the American Government because they don't care about the Iraqi people. They are there for greed and to fulfill the jewish agenda, but thats right you can't think outside that square you live in, so you probably wouldn't understand that.

[barney]

Although this is drifting into a debate on Iraq, I'll pull one single incident up as an example. Hundreds of thousands of similar examples are easy to find.

An Iraqi policeman was drunk out of his face and cycling down the street firing his pistol at anything. A PWRR British soldier arrived and disarmed him. Shamefaced he wobbled off home. The British patrol radioed in and was told to return the pistol immediatly as taking it was undermining the authority of the Iraqi police. They did so and he carried on down the road firing and laughing at the soldiers incapacity to act.

Make of this what you will.

[coddles76]

Although this is drifting into a debate on Iraq, I'll pull one single incident up as an example. Hundreds of thousands of similar examples are easy to find.

An Iraqi policeman was drunk out of his face and cycling down the street firing his pistol at anything. A PWRR British soldier arrived and disarmed him. Shamefaced he wobbled off home. The British patrol radioed in and was told to return the pistol immediatly as taking it was undermining the authority of the Iraqi police. They did so and he carried on down the road firing and laughing at the soldiers incapacity to act.

Make of this what you will.

Thats because as I said they are not there to secure the people. They couldn't care less about what the people do to themselves. They are not there to restore law and order. They are there to secure the resources and rule the country, not the people. They don't care how many they kill, or are killed from within.

[alcurad]

How can they not know! - It's all over the joint. It's scary the ummah (as adivised) Isn't working together. Bizarre if you ask me.

because the ummah is not governed by the ummah, but by oppressive mostly western backed families and dictators.

[barney]

Thats because as I said they are not there to secure the people. They couldn't care less about what the people do to themselves. They are not there to restore law and order. They are there to secure the resources and rule the country, not the people. They don't care how many they kill, or are killed from within.

then why did they remove the pistol?

[Alpher]

becouse it was the individual soldier who removed the pistol trying to do some good and it is the organisation behind him that made him give it back. It is the organisations behind these men who are evil, the individual soldiers merely pawns.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Because the ummah is not governed by the ummah, but by oppressive mostly western backed families and dictators.

But the people are power. If they all rise, the Government can do nothing. It seems, the people are more absorbed in their own cushy lives. They don't seem to care, but show a little lip service now and then and then continue in their own petty lives. That's sad.

Moderate countries like Turkey should appose such actions, but like you say, mammon is much more luring than the welfare of other beings.

In reality you should have a UNI -United Nations of Islam. THis is an army to use only in times as these. To topple radical, evil regimes, and also stop invasions by others (USA/UK etc) but what they must not do is mis-use this power to say, invade nations on crusades. Considering you have over a 100 countries that have muslims as populace. Oh well, it's not going to happen.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Originally Posted by barney
Nearly 80% turnout despite the risk of being bombed at the polling station as I recall.

This was so they could elect an Iraqi regime, and that the invaders would leave ASAP! This has not happened, and this is why you see protests since.

[doorster]

But the people are power. If they all rise, the Government can do nothing. It seems, the people are more absorbed in their own cushy lives. They don't seem to care, but show a little lip service now and then and then continue in their own petty lives. That's sad.

Moderate countries like Turkey should appose such actions, but like you say, mammon is much more luring than the welfare of other beings.

In reality you should have a UNI -United Nations of Islam. THis is an army to use only in times as these. To topple radical, evil regimes, and also stop invasions by others (USA/UK etc) but what they must not do is mis-use this power to say, invade nations on crusades. Considering you have over a 100 countries that have muslims as populace. Oh well, it's not going to happen.

kidhan sardaar ji

do you remember what Indira did to Khalsa when they once rose up to protect The Golden Temple from hindus?

Same and worse happens to Muslims every day when they try to go back to fundamentals of Islam, Every time some one tries to discard the fake religion that is being spread, he ends up in jail or dead or exiled.

[barney]

becouse it was the individual soldier who removed the pistol trying to do some good and it is the organisation behind him that made him give it back. It is the organisations behind these men who are evil, the individual soldiers merely pawns.

And yet it was the same organisation that paid and trained the police. By training I mean to veiw their job as something other than bribing and stealing from the people they were supposed to protect. The actual job of a policeman rather than the standard Iraqi interpretation of a state paid bandit.

[barney]

This was so they could elect an Iraqi regime, and that the invaders would leave ASAP! This has not happened, and this is why you see protests since.

I think you seriously need to look at some polls taken at different points since the liberation. Find some Arab organisation polls since any western poll will obviously be best mates with mossad.

In short, very very few Iraqis want the coalition, who is there on behalf of the legally elected and democratically selected to pile onto their planes and get out right now. Within a year the number rises, when there is security and thats everyone including the US.

So thats easy then. Fastest way to get the US out is to stop blowing up kids in marketplaces and Iraqi soldiers who will be providing security.
The Insurgants dont want the US to leave.

[root]

So thats easy then. Fastest way to get the US out is to stop blowing up kids in marketplaces and Iraqi soldiers who will be providing security. The Insurgants dont want the US to leave.

I totally agree with this, the bigger regional powers want the US to be bogged down, any liberator of Iraq against the crusading forces simply need to lay down their weapons and try to get a job instead. The US would pull out quick sharp and the aim is achieved.

Using violence against the crusaders, is only a tactic to actually keep them their.

[barney]

Yet it's so effective. You can shroud a campaign as a rightious fight against the evil kaffirs(LOL) Kill easy targets like families sitting at home, blow up the power lines that the coalition fix, shut down the local businesses that the coalitions pay for and set up, shoot women in the head for not wearing Hijab and you will still get unqualified support from the ummah worldwide, as we can see here, for their actions.

All aided and abbetted by the media from Al Jazerah to the BBC.

I watch Iraqi TV for my info, theres plenty of anti US anti insurgant stations out there. Take a look.

[alcurad]

barney, stop living in clouds, sure there are groups that target civilians, but there are groups that only target the occupation as well.
if there were no resistance, the US would've stayed for half a century... just like they do now in japan and south Korea. and please don't say that's because of the north, the north-south problem is not resolved as of yet because of the US...
one of the reasons for wanting to pullout has been casualties-despite how meager they are compared to Vietnam and so on. now you been brit, I can understand your feelings, but do you seriously think brits would be silent and lay down arms and get jobs so the say, germans would leave, that after the germans besiege the country for a decade, destroy most infrastructure, topple the government and destabilize the country:?

but the issue here is the raid on Syria, and as such, I blame the baathist regime there for all and every the misery the syrians are facing.
if they actually had wanted to protect their sovereignty and their civilians they could've shot down the american choppers, in fact there was a syrian airbase a few miles away from where the incident occurred...
the syrian regime is one of the most brutal and dictatorial the muslim world has seen, from the massacre of Hama, to the abuse in Sedneya, the syrians have been living one of the bleakest chapters of their history...

[barney]

barney, stop living in clouds, sure there are groups that target civilians, but there are groups that only target the occupation as well.
if there were no resistance, the US would've stayed for half a century... just like they do now in japan and south Korea. and please don't say that's because of the north, the north-south problem is not resolved as of yet because of the US...
one of the reasons for wanting to pullout has been casualties-despite how meager they are compared to Vietnam and so on. now you been brit, I can understand your feelings, but do you seriously think brits would be silent and lay down arms and get jobs so the say, germans would leave, that after the germans besiege the country for a decade, destroy most infrastructure, topple the government and destabilize the country:?

Hmm. Who runs Japan? What is the Japanse Land self Defence Force? A Puppet of the Bush administration? Who votes in their leaders? Where are the bases?(Okinawa...In other words isolated islands that dont affect Japan) 70% of Japanese people want US bases on their soil. 67% of them smaller bases. If the Japanese government asked tommorow for the US to leave, it would have to. yup it would whine and whinge, but it would have to leave.

If you think the US forces in the ROK, who have drawn down to 35000 are the cause of the stand off then you clearly have no idea about Juche, the Korean war or the history of the country. It's an inteeresting read so i would encourage you to find out, but simply quoting Kim Jong Ill's mantra is no saner than saying he is a god.

Yes the US might want permenant bases in Iraq, it'spossible, but it's up to the Iraqi Government elected by the people to decide this, not someone sitting in Peckham fuming about the capitalist pigs dominating the world.
There is no way that the US presence will drop till the country is safer for people there to walk in the streets and the Militias snap out of their tribal frenzy pumped up as they are on the support of the ignorant in muslim nations.

Six months of ceasefire and peace and no more street beheadings or IED's slaughtering ques of young Iraqi lads looking for a job serving their country, and the deverstation that Saddam methodically caused can be started to be fixed. Iraqis can have jobs, food, electricity, peace and live in harmony with its neighbours at last. The USA rebuilt all Europe's flattened cities in 10 years after WW2 costing them trillions of pounds, in the days when a trillion wasa lot of money.

Take a look at Vietnam if you like, what that nation is like now and how its people live in fear and poverty and hunger imprisonment and death.

The Mahdi Army i'm sure will within a few weeks of chasing the last chinook out of Baghdad have restored a wonderful islamic state where roses spring forth from the desert and people sing from dawn to dusk.

[alcurad]

I was speaking of the milirally not the government etc in japan.
and if you don't believe that the US policy in Korea is generally the reason for the split and so on, fine by me...
Iraqi's don't know what a western style democracy is, and never will for the foreseeable future, I don't get how you believe Iraq can have a democracy after what has been done to it, but whatever.
Iraqis will kill each other some more after the pullout, then stop and make whatever could be made, but only after the pullout, the occupation creates even more havoc while it stays, and intra-fighting has toned down only because there is not many left to kill.
the US is following what it always does in such cases,as it did in latin America, Mosaddeq's Iran, and so on. there is a book titled 'Game of Nations', I recommend it if you haven't read it already.

[barney]

I was speaking of the milirally not the government etc in japan.
and if you don't believe that the US policy in Korea is generally the reason for the split and so on, fine by me...
Iraqi's don't know what a western style democracy is, and never will for the foreseeable future, I don't get how you believe Iraq can have a democracy after what has been done to it, but whatever.
Iraqis will kill each other some more after the pullout, then stop and make whatever could be made, but only after the pullout, the occupation creates even more havoc while it stays, and intra-fighting has toned down only because there is not many left to kill.
the US is following what it always does in such cases,as it did in latin America, Mosaddeq's Iran, and so on. there is a book titled 'Game of Nations', I recommend it if you haven't read it already.

I was speaking of the military too. The Yanks stay in their base only to come out and spend hundreds of thousands on japanese goods further boosting the economy that the US kickstarted in the forties. They had a different attidude.

There was a fight not so long back in Iraq between two tribes over a cow. After the arguement left 17 dead 30 wounded and the cow dead, they went home to bomb up for tommorows scrap. This sort of thing is the norm.The US troops are not mind-controlling these people to do this.

The US however has "caused this" by removing the man who had to use bulldozers to shovel the dead civilians he killed under the sand in their hundreds of thousands.
If you fancy, visit a mass grave for the evidence.

I havnt read the book you mentioned, i'll keep a look out for it. I have read enough Chomsky however to know the mindset I imagineit is written on, but i'll still give it a read if i can.

cheers.

[doorster]

Read this Book:> Game of Nations

Posted on October 3, 2008 by Rob
There are so many books written on the Middle East that sometimes its hard to know which ones are worth reading: Game_of_Nations:The Amorality of Power Politics by Miles Copeland is UN-PUT-DOWN-ABLE.


Picture a 1950s version of Bob Baer without the cursing. Copeland was unapologetically involved in all the major US action ( instigating coups etc) in the Middle East during the 1950s and 1960s and puts Egyptian-American relations into his Ultra-Realist theory of how “The Game of Nations” is played. An awesome book. Not well known, but its an excellent and realistic look at Egyptian-American relations, Egyptian history and IR. Does a very nice job of overcoming the Vacuum problem.

Books

• The Game of Nations: The Amorality of Power Politics, New York: Simon & Schuster, 1970
• Without Cloak or Dagger: The Truth About the New Espionage, New York: Simon & Schuster, 1974
• The Game Player: Confessions of the CIA's Original Political Operative, London: Aurum Press, 1989
• Meyer, Karl E. and Shareen Blair Brysac, Kingmakers: the Invention of the Modern Middle East, New York, London: W.W. Norton, 2008, ISBN 978-0-393-06199-4

[Keltoi]

Large portions of Iraq are now under Iraqi control. All of the south and another northern province was handed over last week.

[Fishman]

:sl: This thread fails...

[aamirsaab]

:sl: This thread fails...

This combined with the amount of pages for this thread indicates it is everyone's favourite time.....

...no not lunch time. But thread-locking time!

YAY *giggles and performs star jumps*