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ATR
10-28-2008, 07:32 AM
One thing that greatly troubles me about Islam is the lack of female clergy.

I believe very strongly in women clergy. It is more than simply women's rights. I believe in a religion women must hold equal position in clerical positions as men. This is because women interpret things differently than men. An entire faith can be effected by whether or not women can be clergy. A woman will see things in scripture and other things, in different ways than a man and vice versa. Catholicism, for example, is very male dominant because women are not allowed to be priests.

I think it also very disheartening and almost putting down to girls growing up. Yes, Allah sees you as equal to men, no sorry you cannot give the sermons in the mosque. I know it was for me.

I was told by my mother that women are not allowed to be clergy because it is inconvenient. That having a family, raising kids, then going to the mosque to preach is difficult. What if you aren't married? What if you are willing and want to do it anyway? And what kind of excuse is that? It's inconvenient?

Why cannot women be clergy in Islam?imsad
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 11:54 AM
its good question? I dont kow the answer tho!! :D
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maryam87
10-28-2008, 11:58 AM
Were there female clergy at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?
NO
therefore stop arguing and wanting to start innovation in our religion. every innovator goes straight to hell
Islam is complete dont need ur 2 cent views
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 12:04 PM
Nobody was arguing, it was simply a question, isnt that what this forum is for? asking questions? nobody is trying to do anything to YOUR religion.
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The Khan
10-28-2008, 12:08 PM
ATR, there are women Imams in China belonging to Hanafi madhab.

There are women-only mosques present there called Nüsi's. Check up on it. :)

Peace.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-28-2008, 12:09 PM
calm down maryam his just asking


well you see we do give women extremely important roles in islam, infact it equates the roles of men.

women have taken positions of great piety before, such as Maryam the mother of mary, who is believed to be the greatest woman to ever exist in islam. They dont need positions of clergy to be great, and Allah knows best what position is suitable most for whom
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maryam87
10-28-2008, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mz
calm down maryam his just asking


well you see we do give women extremely important roles in islam, infact it equates the roles of men.

women have taken positions of great piety before, such as Maryam the mother of mary, who is believed to be the greatest woman to ever exist in islam. They dont need positions of clergy to be great, and Allah knows best what position is suitable most for whom
i apologies
It just that i hear it soo often people think they should give women more rights in islam, when i believe no other religion gives better rights to women than islam
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brotherinfaith
10-28-2008, 12:22 PM
i hope i can help you if you sincerely want to know not someone who just wants to argue
first i want to say that islam is the only religion which accepted women's narrations and women's fatwa if you know the terms and ummuna aicha may god be pleased with her narrated almost the third of the religion and she used to clarify many matter for the companions of the prophet and so did the other wives of the prophet and student ( tulab al 3ilm) came from different places to learn from them, there was also many women who used to teach in mosques and they were wives of some great immams.
and what you said about women's understanding and seeing things in a different way i don't agree with that because in our faith and in our religion the truth is the truth and it doesn't need any personal interpretation there is a saying which says ( it's by the truth that men are not not by the men we know the truth ) your interpretation or my interpration or someone's else doesn't matter really because our religion is two things an order for the good and a warning from the bad.
being clergy or not doesn't make any difference really but in life god created us so that each one will have a task to perform but we are equal in responsability and what makes the difference is our faith and our relation with god.the example of men and women in that matter is like the example of a tire and a gear box in a car you can't say that the tired or the engine is better than the gear box or the brakes because each one has a role and without it nothig will work or if it works it will be faulty so when we say clergy man it doesn't mean that no clergy means the woman is less worth than a man but it's just a matter of what we were created for and god who created us knows better than you and i puts each one in his position and if we just accept and understand why we are put where we are we will not what we are now and many things would have changed
sorry for making it so long but i have an advice for you be careful with questions they whether help us or make us sink in doubt and confusion
may god guide us all to what he loves and to hi straight way
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Thank you, I didnt ask the question but it certainly a good question, I dont think ATR wanted an arguement, I genuinely think he/she was just curious!

somethings get blown out of proportion I think!

Never mind, Thank you :D
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'Abd-al Latif
10-28-2008, 12:41 PM
Status of Women in Islam

Part 1


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Part 2


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'Abd-al Latif
10-28-2008, 12:42 PM
This is a bit long but beneficial

Women in Islam, Liberated or Subjugated? - AbdurRaheem Green

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Anette
10-28-2008, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
ATR, there are women Imams in China belonging to Hanafi madhab.

There are women-only mosques present there called Nüsi's. Check up on it. :)

Peace.
And in Sweden.

http://www.metro.se/se/article/2007/...3-45/index.xml

Suad Mohamed is an Imam but only to lead other women (not in the mosque).
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-28-2008, 12:42 PM
I think it also very disheartening and almost putting down to girls growing up.
not necessarily...i think it depends on how its taught to the individual quite honestly. i mean if this 'teaching'; is taught with harshess and its coupled with the mentality that women are inferior to men, than yes, it may come across as something harsh. however, if its taught with positiveness, etc than it comes of as something really beautiful-which is is- alhamdulillah! so yeah, it depends on how its taught to the individual.

Yes, Allah sees you as equal to men, no sorry you cannot give the sermons in the mosque. I know it was for me.
can u image if a women got up to give a sermon...i mean women possess beauty different to a guy. she can look attractive in so many ways, including her voice. in Islam, the women is told not to make her voice soft, what if a women got up and her voice is like this...and it attracts men...where is the humility before Allah gone.
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam87
i apologies
It just that i hear it soo often people think they should give women more rights in islam, when i believe no other religion gives better rights to women than islam
Not a snotty question, I promise!

but what are women rights in islam?

In england, Women just do as they please, my friend got married to a young american girl and she spent more time in the pub getting hammered than she did with him and the way she acted really let the side down for women, he did nothing and has now just recently filed for divorce. I think its a shame that women in the UK (not all women) cant control themselves around other people.
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramlah
can u image if a women got up to give a sermon...i mean women possess beauty different to a guy. she can look attractive in so many ways, including her voice. in Islam, the women is told not to make her voice soft, what if a women got up and her voice is like this...and it attracts men...where is the humility before Allah gone.
Can the men not control themselves? I have a naturally soft voice and I dont find men falling at my feet because of it? My brother went to church to have his daughter christened and the vicar was female and he wasnt attracted to her!!? She is a woman of the cloth therefore she is repected for that, surely it would be the same, if not more so, as I feel Islam is a more respectful and peaceful religion.
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'Abd-al Latif
10-28-2008, 12:50 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ml#post1036253
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'Abd-al Latif
10-28-2008, 12:51 PM
This is excellent.


http://www.asterpix.com/console/?avi=14158461
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maryam87
10-28-2008, 12:52 PM
if u want to know there is heaps of information out there on internet and in books bout women rights in islam
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 12:54 PM
thanks
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-28-2008, 12:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
Can the men not control themselves? I have a naturally soft voice and I dont find men falling at my feet because of it?
they're gonna admit it to your face that they find your voice attractive :)
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buddy1
10-28-2008, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramlah
they're gonna admit it to your face that they find your voice attractive :)
but its a voice, this is what i dont understand, you hear 100's of voices in a day, and so what if one is nicer than an other, surely the prayer has the same meaning.
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Danah
10-28-2008, 01:02 PM
who said that there are no women clergy?

I dont know about the other nations but at least in the Arab world you will find many.....there are sooo many female students in my university studying the Islamic study and they become like teachers for islamic studies or Professors on the same field and they help the other women in their questions and concerns about Islam.

even if you dont see much appearing on the TV or on the newspaper, but there are soo many in the schools and the university.....so its not the case of being so popular that people will see you in the media to know your job.

about the inconvenient that you mention.....women do not have to expose theirselves to men...so they are doing their job in special places for women, so there are no thing impossible
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-28-2008, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
Can the men not control themselves? .
lol we can control ourselves Alhamdulillah but thats not the problem. The problem is even though we are controlled we will be distracted, and even during the prayer we may remain distracted.


so to avoid distraction its better for a woman to not give sermon.


Allah knows best how we think, he created us and has advised us how to best conduct oruselves, and with this advice comes even this ruling of women not giving friday sermons to men and leading them in prayer etc, Allah knows best what he created and what benefits them most...
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maryam87
10-28-2008, 01:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
but its a voice, this is what i dont understand, you hear 100's of voices in a day, and so what if one is nicer than an other, surely the prayer has the same meaning.
Yeah but when ur praying u dnt want to get distracted by anything, when ur praying u have to submit ur self 100%
u might not find a certain females voice attractive but another might
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MO783
10-28-2008, 01:10 PM
:sl:

I can understand people habving thoughts in their heads, its the work of shytaan. There may be alot of things we do not understand etc but we should have Blind Faith, as in some things you accept and carry on.
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Re.TiReD
10-28-2008, 01:10 PM
I was in lecture today, talking about female 'Imaams'....he said something like, if a woman distracts a man during his salah i.e. she is present, either standing towards the back of the masjid or in her role of Imaam, it's the guys prayer that is invalid.

Has anybody heard that before? I think it's a view within one of the schools of thought, can't remember which now...

SubhanAllah I don't understand how men could pray salah behind a woman. Even if these 'progressive Muslims' may deem it to be correct, there's always that doubt isnt there.... That the salah is not valid.

May Allah (swt) guide us all. Ameen.
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UmmSqueakster
10-28-2008, 01:27 PM
What exactly do you mean by clergy? We don't have clergy in Islam. We have people who fill different roles in the community, and women can do most of those. So we aren't imams at masjids and don't give the friday sermon. So what? That doesn't mean we can't learn the deen and become scholars.

MashaAllah, there are many women today who are reclaiming the roles that the first generations of female muslims held. We have an islamic university in our town, and there are two sisters on staff who have masters degrees. I take classes online and several of the teachers are women scholars. The wife of my sheikh is a very knowledgable woman and teaches the female murids.


Here are some things you may find interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/25/ma...in&oref=slogin

Akram embarked eight years ago on a single-volume biographical dictionary of female hadith scholars, a project that took him trawling through biographical dictionaries, classical texts, madrasa chronicles and letters for relevant citations. “I thought I’d find maybe 20 or 30 women,” he says. To date, he has found 8,000 of them, dating back 1,400 years, and his dictionary now fills 40 volumes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/us...l?pagewanted=3

Hundreds of Muslims come to Zaytuna for evening and weekend classes on the Prophet Muhammad, the Koran and the Arabic language. The institute's full-time seminary program is in the pilot phase, with only six students. It is expected to double its enrollment next fall.

Besides Mr. Bah, there are two women — one a former software engineer, the other a former prenatal genetic counselor — and three men — a former jazz musician from Maryland, a motorcycle mechanic from Atlanta and a son of Bangladeshi immigrants in New York City who chose Zaytuna over the Ivy League.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/29/wo...=1&oref=slogin

Women are in the vanguard. Though men across the Islamic world usually interpret Scripture and lead prayers, Syria, virtually alone in the Arab world, is seeing the resurrection of a centuries-old tradition of sheikhas, or women who are religious scholars. The growth of girls’ madrasas has outpaced those for boys, religious teachers here say.

There are no official statistics about precisely how many of the country’s 700 madrasas are for girls. But according to a survey of Islamic education in Syria published by the pan-Arab daily Al Hayat, there are about 80 such madrasas in Damascus alone, serving more than 75,000 women and girls, and about half are affiliated with the Qubaisiate (pronounced koo-BAY-see-AHT).
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youngsister
10-28-2008, 02:40 PM
:sl:

Were there female clergy at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?
NO
therefore stop arguing and wanting to start innovation in our religion. every innovator goes straight to hell
Islam is complete dont need ur 2 cent views
He is not a muslim, if you are going to preach do it in a soft way and in good manners. subxanallah
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ATR
10-28-2008, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
Can the men not control themselves? I have a naturally soft voice and I dont find men falling at my feet because of it? My brother went to church to have his daughter christened and the vicar was female and he wasnt attracted to her!!? She is a woman of the cloth therefore she is repected for that, surely it would be the same, if not more so, as I feel Islam is a more respectful and peaceful religion.
I was going to say the same thing. Are Muslim men less able to control themselves than Christian and Jewish? There are women rabbis and priests and they do not have any problems from it. Why cannot there be women leaders in the Mosques?

format_quote Originally Posted by brotherinfaith
i hope i can help you if you sincerely want to know not someone who just wants to argue
first i want to say that islam is the only religion which accepted women's narrations and women's fatwa if you know the terms and ummuna aicha may god be pleased with her narrated almost the third of the religion and she used to clarify many matter for the companions of the prophet and so did the other wives of the prophet and student ( tulab al 3ilm) came from different places to learn from them, there was also many women who used to teach in mosques and they were wives of some great immams.
and what you said about women's understanding and seeing things in a different way i don't agree with that because in our faith and in our religion the truth is the truth and it doesn't need any personal interpretation there is a saying which says ( it's by the truth that men are not not by the men we know the truth ) your interpretation or my interpration or someone's else doesn't matter really because our religion is two things an order for the good and a warning from the bad.
being clergy or not doesn't make any difference really but in life god created us so that each one will have a task to perform but we are equal in responsability and what makes the difference is our faith and our relation with god.the example of men and women in that matter is like the example of a tire and a gear box in a car you can't say that the tired or the engine is better than the gear box or the brakes because each one has a role and without it nothig will work or if it works it will be faulty so when we say clergy man it doesn't mean that no clergy means the woman is less worth than a man but it's just a matter of what we were created for and god who created us knows better than you and i puts each one in his position and if we just accept and understand why we are put where we are we will not what we are now and many things would have changed
sorry for making it so long but i have an advice for you be careful with questions they whether help us or make us sink in doubt and confusion
may god guide us all to what he loves and to hi straight way
What you take about was hundreds of years ago. We often look at other religions and say, Islam gave women rights the others didn't but that was a very long time ago and things have changed. We cannot keep looking to the past! We need to look forward. We cannot keep boasting we did great advancements in the past and use that as justification for todays wrongs.

Then Islam does not allow for the use of reason in interpreting doctrine and dogma? It is all based on blind faith and obedience? But did not God give us minds to think and see for ourselves? Interpretation isn't in changing the faith, a man reads a book, a woman reads a book, they will see things differently. We do interpret in Islam. If I simply say, "The cat in the hat" well one person will think one thing from that simple line and another something else. It is the same when reading the Quran.

As for your car example, you are talking about prescribed gender roles. This is something I am completely against. I means that a person born in a gender must fit in and desire a certain role in life. There are women out there who do not want to or know themselves would not do well getting married and having kids, and there are men who stay at home. If a person does not fit these prescribed roles, what then? There are women leaders out there.

As for my questions, these are my doubts, my reasons for considering conversion to Anglicanism and the Episcopal church, a form of Christianity. Before I do anything drastic I want to make sure about my doubts, see if they are true. I do not want to, perhaps, maybe, leave Islam, based on false information.

Anglicans do allow for female clergy. The Primate Bishop is a woman. In one of the churches I have visited the Rector is a woman and the curate is a man, that means the woman is in charge. I am friends with the curate and I asked him about gender roles in Anglicanism. There are none. Even the clericals, [the clothing a priest wears] are the same for male and female.

format_quote Originally Posted by maryam87
Were there female clergy at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?
NO
therefore stop arguing and wanting to start innovation in our religion. every innovator goes straight to hell
Islam is complete dont need ur 2 cent views
I thought the asking of questions was encouraged in Islam! I have been told many Christians converted to Islam because they were not allowed to ask things in Christianity! I am trying to find the truth behind my doubts.
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FatimaAsSideqah
10-28-2008, 07:19 PM
The status of woman in Islam constitutes no problem. The attitude of the Quran and the early Muslims bear witness to the fact that woman is, at least, as vital to life as man himself, and that she is not inferior to him nor is she one of the lower species. Had it not been for the impact of foreign cultures and alien influences, this question would have never arisen among the Muslims. The status of woman was taken for granted to be equal to that of man. It was a matter of course, a matter of fact, and no one, then, considered it as a problem at all.
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'Abd-al Latif
10-28-2008, 09:03 PM
Question:
Is there a mention of the equality of women in the qur'an?


Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when the speaker attributes this idea of equality to the Qur’aan and to Islam.

One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality”. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, they started to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same, and then the communists said, ‘What difference is there between ruler and subject? No one has any authority over anyone else, not even fathers and sons; the father has no authority over his son,’ and so on.

But if we say justice, which means giving each one that to which he or she is entitled, this misunderstanding no longer applies, and the word used is correct. Hence it does not say in the Qur’aan that Allaah enjoins equality, rather it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah enjoins Al‑‘Adl (i.e. justice)” [al-Nahl 16:90]

“and that when you judge between men, you judge with justice” [al-Nisa’ 4:58]

Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.

No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality. Rather what shows you that this principle is false is the fact that most of what is mentioned in the Qur’aan denies equality, as in the following verses:

‘Say: Are those who know equal to those who know not?” [al-Zumar 39:9]

‘Say: Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light?’ [al-Ra’d 13:16]

‘Not equal among you are those who spent and fought before the conquering (of Makkah, with those among you who did so later’ [al-Hadeed 57:10]

‘Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allaah with their wealth and their live’ [al-Nisa’ 4:95]

Not one single letter in the Qur’aan enjoins equality, rather it enjoins justice. You will also find that the word justice is acceptable to people, for I feel that if I am better than this man in terms of knowledge, or wealth, or piety, or in doing good, I would not like for him to be equal to me.

Every man knows that he find it unacceptable if we say that the male is equal to the female.”

Sharh al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitah, 1/180-181

Based on this, Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice.

The Qur’aan commands women to wear clothes that are different from those worn by men, because of the differences in the ways each sex is tempted by the other. The temptation posed by men is less than the temptation posed by women, so the clothes that women should wear are different than the clothes that men wear. It makes no sense to tell women to expose the parts of the body that men are allowed to expose, because of the differences in the temptation posed by a woman’s body and a man’s body – as we shall explain.

There are matters in which men and women are treated differently in Islamic sharee’ah, such as:

1 – Qiwaamah (being in charge of the household)

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means” [al-Nisa’ 4:34]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Allaah says ‘Men are the protectors and maintainers of women’ meaning that the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray.

‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as was the position of khaleefah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘No people shall ever prosper who appoint a woman as their ruler.’ This was narrated by al-Bukhaari from the hadeeth of ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Abi Bakrah from his father. The same applies to the position of qaadi (judge), etc.

‘and because they spend (to support them) from their means’ refers to the mahr and the spending on women’s maintenance that Allaah has enjoined upon men in His Book and in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So a man is inherently better than a woman, and he is superior to her because he spends on her. So it is appropriate that he should be in charge of her, as Allaah says, ‘but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them’ [al-Baqarah 2:228].

‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: ‘Men are the protectors and maintainers of women’ means that men are the leaders of women and they should obey them in areas where Allaah has enjoined obedience. Obedience may mean treating his family kindly and protecting his wealth.”

(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/490)

2 – Testimony or bearing witness. The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her” [al-Baqarah 2:282]

Ibn Katheer said:

Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason, as Muslim narrated in his Saheeh… from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O women, give in charity and seek forgiveness a great deal, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.” A wise woman among them said, “Why is it, O Messenger of Allaah, that we are the majority of the people of Hell?” He said, “Because you curse too much, and you are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you.” The woman asked: “O Messenger of Allaah, what is wrong with our common sense and our religion?” He said: “Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion.”

(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/336)

There may be some women who are wiser than some men, but this is not the usual rule and such women are not in the majority. Sharee’ah is based on what is general and most common.

The fact that women are lacking in reason does not mean that they are crazy, rather their reason is often overtaken by their emotions, and this happens to women more often than it happens to men. No one would deny this except one who is arrogant.

3 – A woman inherits half of what a man inherits.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah commands you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females” [al-Nisa’ 4:11]

Al-Qurtubi said:

Because Allaah knows better than they do what is in their best interests, He made the division of inheritance based on differentiation, because He knows what is in their best interests.

Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 5/164

For example, a man is obliged to spend more than a woman, so it is appropriate that he should have a larger share of inheritance than a woman.

4 – Clothing:

A woman’s ‘awrah includes her entire body. The least that can be said is that she should not uncover anything except her face and hands, and it was said that she should not even uncover that.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Ahzaab 33:59]

The ‘awrah of a man is the area from the navel to the knees.

It was said to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ja’far ibn Abi Taalib, “Tell us what you heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and what you saw of him, and do not tell us about anyone else, even if he was trustworthy.” He said, “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘The area between the navel and the knee is ‘awrah.’”

Narrated by al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (6418); classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 5583.

Other examples include the following, which is not a comprehensive list.

There are other differences between the sexes, including the following:

- A man can marry four women, but a woman can only have one husband.

- A man has the right to issue a divorce and it is valid if he does so, but a woman does not have the right to issue a divorce.

- A man may marry a woman from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), but a Muslim woman may not marry anyone but a Muslim.

- A man may travel without his wife or any of his mahrams, but a woman may not travel unless she is accompanied by a mahram.

- Prayer in the mosque is obligatory for men, but not for women; a woman’s prayer in her house is more beloved to Allaah.

- A woman may wear silk and gold, but a man must not wear them.

Everything that we have mentioned is based on the difference between men and women, because the male is not like the female. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the male is not like the female” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:36]

The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle.

And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.

With regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation.

Jihad is obligatory for men, but jihad in the sense of fighting is not obligatory for women. This is the mercy of Allaah towards them, and consideration for their nature.

In conclusion we may say that the rulings for men are not like the rulings for women.

Islam regards men and women as equally obliged with regard to many acts of worship and interactions with others. For example, women do wudoo’ just as men do, they do ghusl as men do, they pray as men do, and they fast as men do, except when they are menstruating or bleeding following childbirth. Women pay zakaah as men pay zakaah, and they do Hajj as men do, except for a few differences in the rulings. It is permissible and acceptable to buy from a woman, and if a woman gives charity, that is permissible. It is permissible for a woman to set free the slaves that she owns, and there are many other similar cases because women are the twin halves of men, as it says in the hadeeth:

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about a man who finds some wetness (on his clothes) but did not have an erotic dream, and he said, “He should do ghusl.” He was asked about a man who had an erotic dream but did not find any wetness, and he said, “He does not have to do ghusl.” Umm Salamah said, “O Messenger of Allaah, if a woman sees that, does she have to do ghusl?” He said, “Yes, for women are the twin halves of men.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 113; Ahmad, 25663. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 98)

Conclusion:

Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally. In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from Allaah and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant kaafir sees it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly beat his head against the rock of reality. But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of Allaah.

“Should not He Who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All‑Aware (of everything)” [al-Mulk 67:14 – interpretation of the meaning]

And Allaah knows best.

IslamQA.com
Reply

seeker-of-light
10-28-2008, 09:21 PM
interesting points given here:) allah knows best
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 12:17 AM
But you have not answered my question. Are Muslim men less capable of controlling themselves than nonMuslim. I have yet to hear anyone who goes against Christian clergy complain they cannot pay attention because of the women priests during services. In fact it seems in many many things Muslim men are less able to control themselves. Even the Catholics do not want women priests not because they distract men but because Jesus was male!
Reply

Khatoon
10-29-2008, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
can u image if a women got up to give a sermon...i mean women possess beauty different to a guy. she can look attractive in so many ways, including her voice. in Islam, the women is told not to make her voice soft, what if a women got up and her voice is like this...and it attracts men...where is the humility before Allah gone.

I agree! as a woman i believe lowering your gaze and softening tone of your voice is important as men are very easily attracted to such beauty.

and comment by Buddy 1

"In england, Women just do as they please, my friend got married to a young american girl and she spent more time in the pub getting hammered than she did with him and the way she acted really let the side down for women, he did nothing and has now just recently filed for divorce. I think its a shame that women in the UK (not all women) cant control themselves around other people"

please don't disrespect women, I'm from england and majority of women around myself are well respected..Oh your friend married an "american" lass not english. Then you diss girls in england tut tut

Idont was to lead to an argument, i mean who am i to judge!

Allah knows best
Reply

Khatoon
10-29-2008, 12:47 AM
I only been here a day, still browsing....

Salamz
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khatoon
Originally Posted by Ramlah
can u image if a women got up to give a sermon...i mean women possess beauty different to a guy. she can look attractive in so many ways, including her voice. in Islam, the women is told not to make her voice soft, what if a women got up and her voice is like this...and it attracts men...where is the humility before Allah gone.

I agree! as a woman i believe lowering your gaze and softening tone of your voice is important as men are very easily attracted to such beauty.

and comment by Buddy 1

"In england, Women just do as they please, my friend got married to a young american girl and she spent more time in the pub getting hammered than she did with him and the way she acted really let the side down for women, he did nothing and has now just recently filed for divorce. I think its a shame that women in the UK (not all women) cant control themselves around other people"

please don't disrespect women, I'm from england and majority of women around myself are well respected..Oh your friend married an "american" lass not english. Then you diss girls in england tut tut

Idont was to lead to an argument, i mean who am i to judge!

Allah knows best

I do not agree. Nearly every argument against women has been they distract men, they attract men. What are women? Sex objects? Why should women suffer because God made men with an excess of sex drive?

Women are allowed to preach in other faiths and there are no problems from it. Christian Priests and Bishops, Jewish Rabbis, and I have never heard anywhere the argument, women preaching distract me from the service.

Muslim men seem extremely oversexed. You breath wrong and they will complain. You show an ankle and they complain.*It is no† the women that are the problem it is the men
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-29-2008, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
But you have not answered my question. Are Muslim men less capable of controlling themselves than nonMuslim. I have yet to hear anyone who goes against Christian clergy complain they cannot pay attention because of the women priests during services. In fact it seems in many many things Muslim men are less able to control themselves. Even the Catholics do not want women priests not because they distract men but because Jesus was male!
It's not so much 'are muslim men less able to control themselves' but the issue is that a woman by nature is beautiful. And a male by nature is one who desires females and is attracted by their beauty much more then a female is to a male. When a man comes to a mosque, putting behind him all his wordly objects in order to remember god with his undivided attention and there happens to be a female preacher preaching to men, the men will be distracted by the beauty of a woman which may even become a source temptation for him. Needless to say her presence may cause more distraction then benefit. For these reasons mosques are segregated, because a woman may not be tempted by the voice of a man, and she may not find their presence a distraction during worship so she finds it easier to restrain herself.

This doesn't mean that muslim men are unable to control themselves, rather all the doors that lead to evil are closed, doors which may at one point lead to the female preacher and a male being alone if advice is needed from her because Prophet Muhammad said that when a man and woman are alone, satan is the third present amongst them, always ready to stir evil desires. Others such as preserving their modesty because as Prophet Muhammad said "All of shyness is good". This doesn't mean that females can never be preachers, they can be preachers with other woman but not at the gatherings of men. This is forbidden becaose of the above mentioned.
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
It's not so much 'are muslim men less able to control themselves' but the issue is that a woman by nature is beautiful. And a male by nature is one who desires females and is attracted by their beauty much more then a female is to a male. When a man comes to a mosque, putting behind him all his wordly objects in order to remember god with his undivided attention and there happens to be a female preacher preaching to men, the men will be distracted by the beauty of a woman which may even become a source temptation for him. Needless to say her presence may cause more distraction then benefit. For these reasons mosques are segregated, because a woman may not be tempted by the voice of a man, and she may not find their presence a distraction during worship so she finds it easier to restrain herself.

This doesn't mean that muslim men are unable to control themselves, rather all the doors that lead to evil are closed, doors which may at one point lead to the female preacher and a male being alone if advice is needed from her because Prophet Muhammad said that when a man and woman are alone, satan is the third present amongst them, always ready to stir evil desires. Others such as preserving their modesty because as Prophet Muhammad said "All of shyness is good". This doesn't mean that females can never be preachers, they can be preachers with other woman but not at the gatherings of men. This is forbidden becaose of the above mentioned.
But again you have not answered my question. Christians and Jews have no problem with this. I spoke with several Christians I work with and none of them have problems with female clergy. It seems this is a problem limited to Islam alone
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-29-2008, 01:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
But again you have not answered my question. Christians and Jews have no problem with this. I spoke with several Christians I work with and none of them have problems with female clergy. It seems this is a problem limited to Islam alone
Jews have their synagogues segregated like muslims do and i've seen this myself.

Christian nuns have to cover their their heads which is the same concept as the hijab. And if they do not cover their heads then they should shave their heads.

The concept is more or less the same.
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جوري
10-29-2008, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
But again you have not answered my question. Christians and Jews have no problem with this. I spoke with several Christians I work with and none of them have problems with female clergy. It seems this is a problem limited to Islam alone
What is a Muslim woman's duty as 'clergy' in your opinion?
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 02:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Jews have their synagogues segregated like muslims do and i've seen this myself.

Christian nuns have to cover their their heads which is the same concept as the hijab. And if they do not cover their heads then they should shave their heads.

The concept is more or less the same.
No it is not. Far from it. You talk only of Nuns. Firstly not all Nuns cover their heads. Secondly Catholics do not allow women clergy not for the reasons Islam gives but because Jesus was male! No Christian denomination, not a single one, does not allow women to preach because it will "distract" men. In fact most Christian denominations allow female clergy. And the arguments, as I have said numerous times, have nothing to do with distract. Primarily they deal with Jesus being male and the priest being a representative of Christ.

Referring to Nuns you are talking about something completely different.

In addition you speak of Judaism? Every denomination of Judaism ordains women as Rabbis and cantors, except the Orthodox. That is the majority. In addition it is only in Orthodox synagogues that the genders are separated.

As for churches, men and women do sit together. In nearly all denominations.

So, aside from one denomination of Judaism, a tiny minority of Christian denominations, and Islam, everyone else always women to be clergy and are not distracted by their female preachers.
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ATR
10-29-2008, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
What is a Muslim woman's duty as 'clergy' in your opinion?
The right to give Friday sermons, to everyone. The right to be leaders in the Mosque and make decisions. The right to study theology, interpret and make laws. Basically the equivalent of the Priests and Bishops in Christianity. The right to be equal in the running of the faith as men.
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 02:12 AM
You can be a female and a scholar in Islam, you can teach and preach, half the ahadith were narrated by Aisha (RA) and she taught grown men.. that equates to rabbi if you wish to make that comparison ..
but at least Muslim men, unlike their Jewish counterparts, don't end up thanking God that they are not women!
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'Abd-al Latif
10-29-2008, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
No it is not. Far from it. You talk only of Nuns. Firstly not all Nuns cover their heads. Secondly Catholics do not allow women clergy not for the reasons Islam gives but because Jesus was male! No Christian denomination, not a single one, does not allow women to preach because it will "distract" men. In fact most Christian denominations allow female clergy. And the arguments, as I have said numerous times, have nothing to do with distract. Primarily they deal with Jesus being male and the priest being a representative of Christ.

Referring to Nuns you are talking about something completely different.

In addition you speak of Judaism? Every denomination of Judaism ordains women as Rabbis and cantors, except the Orthodox. That is the majority. In addition it is only in Orthodox synagogues that the genders are separated.

As for churches, men and women do sit together. In nearly all denominations.

So, aside from one denomination of Judaism, a tiny minority of Christian denominations, and Islam, everyone else always women to be clergy and are not distracted by their female preachers.
Just a quick question out of curiosity. Are you basing this with what you have seen in the bible/torah or from what you have seen from the actions/statements of these individuals?
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جوري
10-29-2008, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
The right to give Friday sermons, to everyone. The right to be leaders in the Mosque and make decisions. The right to study theology, interpret and make laws. Basically the equivalent of the Priests and Bishops in Christianity. The right to be equal in the running of the faith as men.
what are the decisions that you want them to make? that seems vague to me.. also who said you can't study and teach theology and be a scholar?..
who said you can't head women in prayers?

Have you ran a survey asking Muslim women, whether or not they desire to stand before a large congregation, bending kneeling in prayer while behind her are rows of men? also what do you propose when she is menstruating or just not in the mood? or prego? that prayer and sermons be put on hold?
Reply

doorster
10-29-2008, 02:18 AM

Same ole stuff rehashed over and over
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 02:23 AM
This is not a power that has been restricted to scholars of the religion. For example, Umar sought to lower the dowry paid by husbands to their wives because excessive demands were limiting the number of men who could be married. A woman stepped forward and objected stating Umar could not remove a right that was granted by the traditions of Muhammad. Umar, realizing his transgression, rescinded.[110]

Consultation is a highly regarded principle in Islam.


http://www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/cours...ar%20Paper.htm

I think it is rather rudimentary to even the most uneducated of Muslims to know a little something about Islam.. what do others on board think? we are being led by the nose by another evangelist... not smooth.. I tell you do some research first before singing the praise of idolatry.. that way you'd be inherenly more convincing ..

all the best
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 02:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Just a quick question out of curiosity. Are you basing this with what you have seen in the bible/torah or from what you have seen from the actions/statements of these individuals?
From what I know of modern Judaism and Christianity. Look it up. All of these faiths have allowed women to become leaders in their religious organizations.

However, if you want the Bible. In Paul's letter to the Romans he praises women deacons and priests. Women, it is known, held leadership roles in the church until men took over. In the first century. There is one case in the Pastoral Epistles that does not allow women clergy, however, most theologians believe this letter to not have been written by Paul, the language is clearly not his writing style.

The early Church especially allowed for leadership roles for women and many churches were going back to that tradition. In fact Jesus had a rather revolutionary position on women. They traveled with them, he sat and preached to them alone
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 02:27 AM
amazing

here is what we remember reading the bible..
on women

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."


and, my personal favorite wish Anne coutler would conform to that given how she likes to be a bible thumper-much like you!

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-29-2008, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
From what I know of modern Judaism and Christianity. Look it up. All of these faiths have allowed women to become leaders in their religious organizations.

However, if you want the Bible. In Paul's letter to the Romans he praises women deacons and priests. Women, it is known, held leadership roles in the church until men took over. In the first century. There is one case in the Pastoral Epistles that does not allow women clergy, however, most theologians believe this letter to not have been written by Paul, the language is clearly not his writing style.

The early Church especially allowed for leadership roles for women and many churches were going back to that tradition. In fact Jesus had a rather revolutionary position on women. They traveled with them, he sat and preached to them alone
Is your reason for choosing a religion, then, one which gives you the same rights as men and to do everything they do?
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
This is not a power that has been restricted to scholars of the religion. For example, Umar sought to lower the dowry paid by husbands to their wives because excessive demands were limiting the number of men who could be married. A woman stepped forward and objected stating Umar could not remove a right that was granted by the traditions of Muhammad. Umar, realizing his transgression, rescinded.[110]

Consultation is a highly regarded principle in Islam.


http://www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/cours...ar%20Paper.htm

I think it is rather rudimentary to even the most uneducated of Muslims to know a little something about Islam.. what do others on board think? we are being led by the nose by another evangelist... not smooth.. I tell you do some research first before singing the praise of idolatry.. that way you'd be inherenly more convincing ..

all the best

If one more person accuses me of being a Christian, or an Evangelist! I am not Christian! How many times do I have to say this! I AM NOT CHRISTIAN!!!! I was born and raised a Muslim! I consider myself an agnostic and am considering converting to the Episcopal church. Before I do something drastic I want to make sure I am not switching out of Islam based on false information and beliefs!
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 02:36 AM
you were born and raised full of crap.. see I can say this with conviction because I have no such restriction in the Quran as--1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ...


you should go become a full fledged crapper or whatever it is you desire to be and stop bugging everyone about it!

cheerio
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
amazing

here is what we remember reading the bible..
on women

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."


and, my personal favorite wish Anne coutler would conform to that given how she likes to be a bible thumper-much like you!

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."
I am impressed. Okay as I mentioned the Pastoral Epistles are not considered to be actually written by Paul. So scratch out Timothy from your list.

And even with all that, yes it leaves other verses left over but that does not change the fact that nearly every church lets women preach. They take those versus in the context they were written in. In addition there is, as I mentioned Romans, in which Paul talks of women priests and deacons and we know for a fact women initially historically did preach.

But that still does not change the fact women in Christianity preach. They are leaders of the church. Christians have taken those versus and realized the context they are in is no longer valid. Surely Islam can do the same? Women are not in the same position they were once in.
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 02:44 AM
the fickle(ness) of christianity is no concern of Islam which parts you want to burn and which you want to keep as hilarious as it is in a creed is also no cocnern of Islam.. you can apparently work at 'hoot' --ers' bang your way through life and be accepted into heaven because 'Jesus/God' is so allowing and forgiving to people of ill repute so long as they accept he left the universe behind to show up in Nazerth to foresake himself and break a few of his own commandements--in lieu of proper prayer and proper chastitiy and proper charity, but I do digress...you haven't answered my previous questions

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
what are the decisions that you want them to make? that seems vague to me.. also who said you can't study and teach theology and be a scholar?..
who said you can't head women in prayers?

Have you ran a survey asking Muslim women, whether or not they desire to stand before a large congregation, bending kneeling in prayer while behind her are rows of men? also what do you propose when she is menstruating or just not in the mood? or prego? that prayer and sermons be put on hold?
listen pal. I am pressed for time, so instead of beating around the bush go be an evangelist, and preach on jihad/sina/pipes/dawkin sites but take a hike from this forum!

cheerio
Reply

ATR
10-29-2008, 03:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
the fickle(ness) of christianity is no concern of Islam which parts you want to burn and which you want to keep as hilarious as it is in a creed is also no cocnern of Islam.. you can apparently work at 'hoot' --ers' bang your way through life and be accepted into heaven because 'Jesus/God' is so allowing and forgiving to people of ill repute so long as they accept he left the universe behind to show up in Nazerth to foresake himself and break a few of his own commandements--in lieu of proper prayer and proper chastitiy and proper charity, but I do digress...you haven't answered my previous questions



listen pal. I am pressed for time, so instead of beating around the bush go be an evangelist, and preach on jihad/sina/pipes/dawkin sites but take a hike from this forum!

cheerio
Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching? Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-29-2008, 03:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching? Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.
Answer this question:

What are the basic tenants of Islam?
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching?
I have already established that women in Islam can preach, can be scholars! I so hate repeating myself! Is that you are unwilling or unable to read?


Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.
What is belittling, I really don't understand? I think being asked to be in full subjugation to a man as per bible is belittling and shutting up in church is belittling -- again I have fully demonstrated how a woman told Omar ibn ilkhtab off in a Mosque!

further Muslim prayer differs greatly than christian prayer.. they sing and dance and 'praise the lawd', we kneel, and recite Quran.. I am still not certain where you draw the assimilations?

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.
your choice seems clear to me, I really have no idea why you are wasting your time and everyone else's here? you don't seem at all interested in the replies given you

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.
You haven't demonstrated a keen ability to understand or to profit from experience of others, so it is frankly a waste, not to mention, you are evasive, and don't seem to read the replies given you.. can you give me one good reason folks ought to go on humoring you?
If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.
lol.. that is hilarious and very mature.. yes pls take that to your grave--


all the best
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 03:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
he is off to google them...

:w:
Reply

doorster
10-29-2008, 03:30 AM
If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.
(if you ever were a Muslim, which I do not believe)I am more than willing to take the credit if you leave, for I will plead with Allah that I was just shedding dead weight and millstone from around our collective neck!
Reply

Woodrow
10-29-2008, 04:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
One thing that greatly troubles me about Islam is the lack of female clergy.

I believe very strongly in women clergy. It is more than simply women's rights. I believe in a religion women must hold equal position in clerical positions as men. This is because women interpret things differently than men. An entire faith can be effected by whether or not women can be clergy. A woman will see things in scripture and other things, in different ways than a man and vice versa. Catholicism, for example, is very male dominant because women are not allowed to be priests.

I think it also very disheartening and almost putting down to girls growing up. Yes, Allah sees you as equal to men, no sorry you cannot give the sermons in the mosque. I know it was for me.

I was told by my mother that women are not allowed to be clergy because it is inconvenient. That having a family, raising kids, then going to the mosque to preach is difficult. What if you aren't married? What if you are willing and want to do it anyway? And what kind of excuse is that? It's inconvenient?

Why cannot women be clergy in Islam?imsad
One reason is because we have no ordained clergy. Male or female.


The Imam is simply the person who leads us in prayer. It would be an insult to a woman to have her bow in prostration in front of a man. So women do not lead men in prayer, but there are Mosques that are all female, and women do often lead the prayers in front of other women.

As far as giving sermons. women often are the instructors at a mosque.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
10-29-2008, 04:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching? Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.

Holy shamolie. THere is a strange amount of hostility here from my brothers and sisters.


Listen, ATR, if you want a full complete answer, you should go talk to real life scholars and such. It is quite out of character for these members of the forum to have spoke angrily at you but please remember, NOONE here is a scholar and we are taking our best guesses. Here are some hadiths that you may want to read. From my limited knowlege, I think women are encouraged to lead women only congregations. Mixed gender oens should be lead by men because many men cant help themselves when looking at a girl anywhere.

ALso, just because the church allows somehting or the synagogues allow somehting does not mean it is OK. You seme to be making that error. Many of my friends talk about checking out girls ALL THE TIME at church and noone thinks it is wrong.

Women are more respected in Islam thna anywhere else. Our laws are ther eot make sure that they are never treated as objects by men. Our first priority is their dignity. So please seek a scholar out in real life and remember that laws are there for a reason, not just the clergy ones you may not understand but also the ones granted women protection and rights not foudn anywhere else.

The hadith of `A’ishah and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them). `Abdur-Raziq (5086), Ad-Daraqutni (1/404) and Al-Bayhaqi (3/131) reported from the narration of Abu Hazim Maysarah ibn Habib from Ra’itah Al-Hanafiyyah from `A’ishah that she led women in Prayer and stood among them in an obligatory Prayer. Moreover, Ibn Abi Shaybah (2/89) reported from the chain of narrators of Ibn Abi Layla from `Ata’ that `A’ishah used to say the Adhan, the Iqamah, and lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row. Al-Hakim also reported the same hadith from the chain of narrators of Layth Ibn Abi Sulaim from `Ata’, and the wording of the hadith mentioned here is Al-Hakim’s.

Furthermore, Ash-Shafi`i (315), Ibn Abi Shaybah (88/2) and `Abdur-Raziq (5082) reported from two chains of narrators that report the narration of `Ammar Ad-Dahni in which he stated that a woman from his tribe named Hujayrah narrated that Umm Salamh used to lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row.

The wording of `Abdur-Raziq for the same hadith is as follows: “Umm Salamah led us (women) in the `Asr Prayer and stood among us (in the same row).”
Reply

AntiKarateKid
10-29-2008, 04:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
One reason is because we have no ordained clergy. Male or female.


The Imam is simply the person who leads us in prayer. It would be an insult to a woman to have her bow in prostration in front of a man. So women do not lead men in prayer, but there are Mosques that are all female, and women do often lead the prayers in front of other women.

As far as giving sermons. women often are the instructors at a mosque.
Nice response! You said it better than I did in a few paragraphs.
Quick and painless answer huh? :giggling:
Reply

AntiKarateKid
10-29-2008, 04:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
(if you ever were a Muslim, which I do not believe)I am more than willing to take the credit if you leave, for I will plead with Allah that I was just shedding dead weight and millstone from around our collective neck!
Shame on your attitude brother.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
10-29-2008, 04:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
you were born and raised full of crap.. see I can say this with conviction because I have no such restriction in the Quran as--1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ...


you should go become a full fledged crapper or whatever it is you desire to be and stop bugging everyone about it!

cheerio


Honestly, you may know how to argue agaunst the Bible, but you sure as heck don't know how to argue against a human being and come off acting like a normal one.

Please respect visitors sister. Would the Prophet (pbuh) ever have responded like that? :-[
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Honestly, you may know how to argue agaunst the Bible, but you sure as heck don't know how to argue against a human being and come off acting like a normal one.

Please respect visitors sister. Would the Prophet (pbuh) ever have responded like that? :-[
it depends on the visitor =)

being muslim doesn't = to being gullible!

How do you think the Prophet would advise a Muslim and handle a hypocrite, is the better question here---
Don't nullify an act you deem abhorrent by committing one yourself..


:w:
Reply

doorster
10-29-2008, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Shame on your attitude brother.
Thank you but I think I'd rather take lessons about survival from wildebeest than you, each time some one real apostated I used to say to my dad we lost another one boo hoo hoo, he showed me a film about migrating wildebeest, and his reply was that with every perceived loss we become healthier and purer, they will be a burden on there new community freeing us to pursue cause of Allah for we do not have to suffer from their corrupting influence any more!
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 04:53 AM
that is to say this fellow is a 'potential apostate.'..
the net does offer folks anonymity and most abuse it.. Evangelists do get creative when desperate and in fact the topics tackled are exactly the sort revivalists mis-quote and misuse.. No one learns religion from the web.. get real.. When I had interest in learning Zoroastrianism I purchased a book!..
an easy caveat on how to distinguish a fraudsters in the very least how much better versed in christianity than Islam --he doesn't even know Islam's basic tenets, I reference you to Br. Abd-al Latif's post where he asked him just that with a surrprise no reply.. further, he doesn't read the answers posted him and repeats the same questions... so what is the point? just spamming the forum?

you want to handle this one antiK-kid.. by all means


:w:
Reply

UmmSqueakster
10-29-2008, 11:07 AM
I find it funny that on two threads I've given you thoughtful, and you ignore those in favor of going after what you disagree with, without so much as a comment to me.

The only thing women cannot do "clerically" is give the friday sermon and lead the prayer. Here in america, women run mosques. They teach classes. They study theology. And they do all this with the blessings of traditional religious leadership firmly grounded in the Qur'an, Sunnah and 1400 years of traditions of our scholars.


The issue of women leadership in both christianity and judaism is not as cut and dry as you think. I used to be lutheran. There are 3 main lutheran denominations here in the US. 2 out of the 3 do not allow women to be ordained. None of the three allow practicing homosexuals to be ordained. The anglican church is currently in the midst of a threatened schism because many elements of the church to not agree with what their more liberal counterparts in the UK and america are doing.
Reply

The Khan
10-29-2008, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATR
But you have not answered my question. Are Muslim men less capable of controlling themselves than nonMuslim. I have yet to hear anyone who goes against Christian clergy complain they cannot pay attention because of the women priests during services. In fact it seems in many many things Muslim men are less able to control themselves. Even the Catholics do not want women priests not because they distract men but because Jesus was male!
Firstly, as brother woodrow said, the role of the Imam is simply to lead people in prayer. There's no ban in any school of thought (except hanbali, I think, please correct me if i'm wrong) for women leading jamaat, it's just highly discouraged. Personally, I have no qualms with it, provided the woman leading the jamaat is standing behind the men. However, when a woman is bowing in prostration and a man is behind her, he can glimpse the area of her private parts. Generally, it's man's nature to look at women and women's nature to like being looked at by men. Now, this is supposed to be restricted between a husband and wife. Imagine staring at a woman's behind while you're praying to your Lord... what a terrible sin that is!

I really like the concept of women-only mosques. It's ingenious.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
10-29-2008, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
Thank you but I think I'd rather take lessons about survival from wildebeest than you, each time some one real apostated I used to say to my dad we lost another one boo hoo hoo, he showed me a film about migrating wildebeest, and his reply was that with every perceived loss we become healthier and purer, they will be a burden on there new community freeing us to pursue cause of Allah for we do not have to suffer from their corrupting influence any more!

Holy Quran 3:159
Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.



How could you say she is a loss already? Are you aware of the future? THe girl has questions, I had questions too when I was exploring Islam. I kept my faith and found the answers. THis girl still needs that boost and reassurance from the Islamic community she needs to join again and you ALREADY count her as a PERMANENT loss?

Take a lesson from the Quran verse quoted above and soften up. The girl took the time to find an Islamic forum, get in contact with other Muslims and ask questions that address her doubts. I hardly think the Ummah will benefit from such a harsh attitude like yours. We should encourage her to find the complete answer with truested scholars and not dismiss her as gone for good.


ATX, please read brother Woodrow and Khan's answers as they seem to be the best ones here. ALso, if you are not a girl, I apologize for using "she" to address you. I will make dua for you so that Allah guides you to Islam and the straight path.
Reply

doorster
10-29-2008, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Holy Quran 3:159
Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.



How could you say she is a loss already? Are you aware of the future? THe girl has questions, I had questions too when I was exploring Islam. I kept my faith and found the answers. THis girl still needs that boost and reassurance from the Islamic community she needs to join again and you ALREADY count her as a PERMANENT loss?

Take a lesson from the Quran verse quoted above and soften up. The girl took the time to find an Islamic forum, get in contact with other Muslims and ask questions that address her doubts. I hardly think the Ummah will benefit from such a harsh attitude like yours. We should encourage her to find the complete answer with truested scholars and not dismiss her as gone for good.


ATX, please read brother Woodrow and Khan's answers as they seem to be the best ones here. ALso, if you are not a girl, I apologize for using "she" to address you. I will make dua for you so that Allah guides you to Islam and the straight path.
that shows me how much you read!

in any case I will tell you this when advising some one based on google searches for Quraanic Ayyaat.

you just endorsed Mr the khan, who has on this very site made halal what is harram , and made haraam what is halal, did you you actually read much of his posts (or mine for that matter)?

it might impress some people when you throw around verses willy nilly but it does no good to anyone, people like you have turned this once great cite into a circus, a ruddy freak show, learn some common-sense and learn to recognise that just like one swallow does not make a summer nor does a drop of water make the ocean in the same way one seemingly decent post does not make Mr. khan the scholar and wipes of his declaring pig breeding permissible for Muslims as long as they obey the Quraan and not eat the flesh and use only its great leather.

Quraan is not there to take bits out to score points but its their to understand in its entirety. your munajjid style decree against me is just dumb and distorted, here I have posted a sample fatwa to show dummies how it should be done. find it at http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...alal-meat.html

I really really am done here now I bid good bye to friends, and the rest of you scholars just carry on!
Reply

AntiKarateKid
10-30-2008, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
that shows me how much you read!

in any case I will tell you this when advising some one based on google searches for Quraanic Ayyaat.

you just endorsed Mr the khan, who has on this very site made halal what is harram , and made haraam what is halal, did you you actually read much of his posts (or mine for that matter)?

it might impress some people when you throw around verses willy nilly but it does no good to anyone, people like you have turned this once great cite into a circus, a ruddy freak show, learn some common-sense and learn to recognise that just like one swallow does not make a summer nor does a drop of water make the ocean in the same way one seemingly decent post does not make Mr. khan the scholar and wipes of his declaring pig breeding permissible for Muslims as long as they obey the Quraan and not eat the flesh and use only its great leather.

Quraan is not there to take bits out to score points but its their to understand in its entirety.

I really really am done here now I bid good bye to friends, and the rest of you scholars just carry on!

Hmm. You just ranted against a person I pointed out and not MY POINT? Haha, anyways, if you got so much of a problemw ith Khan, lets say bro Woodrow then. Now what? Please keep it civil. Being on the internet does not give you permission to be so rude. How about calming down and thinking about my points then.

By the way, what I quoted is entirely relevant to our discussion and it refutes your attitude utterly.

As for your scholar comment:

1. You ignored the fact that I repeatedly asked her to find the opinion of a rela scholar
2. You act as if your Imaan is the highest here and you can tell the future of who wills tay with and turn away from Islam
3. you forget that you being Muslim obligates you to show others the way and not to shun them totally
4. You forget your manners while talking to a fellow Muslim
5. as for endorsing what is haram and vica versa, your actions endorse all the above and Mr. Khan is suddenly the evil one?? ^o)


All I am saying is that we keep together and help ATX without bickering like chickens.
Reply

The Khan
10-30-2008, 12:13 AM
Oh, he considers me a heretic. :)

I do question EVERYTHING after all.

Let's not argue about our views, I do respect his after all, although he may not respect mine.

My view on this topic is the same as that of 3 out of 4 Sunni madhabs. Still not sure whether Hanbali allows women Imams in exceptional circumstances.

Personally, I don't like gender segregation, but I believe it is a must in a mosque. Haraam thoughts must not be present while in prayer, for this is when shaytan whispers the most in your head.

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