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north_malaysian
10-29-2008, 03:53 AM
Wednesday October 29, 2008

Wife beaten up for failed marriage bid

KUANTAN: She tried to get the consent of the woman her husband wanted as a second wife. But the woman was already married.

The husband got angry because of her failure to get the woman’s approval and beat her up. He also threatened her with a parang (machete) and tried to shoot her.

Fearing for her safety, the 60-year-old woman ran to her son’s house nearby in Pancing before lodging a police report.

State CID deputy chief Supt Mohd Haris Daud said the woman was asked by her husband, aged 57, to seek the consent of the other woman, in her 30s, to be his second wife on Oct 24.

“The woman did so and went to the other woman’s house but found out that she was already married. She returned home and informed her husband, who became agitated and started to assault her and threatened to chop her with a parang,” he said.

Supt Mohd Haris said the man, who is a security guard and Rela member, threatened to shoot her with a shotgun if she failed to get the woman’s approval.

He said a suspect has been detained to assist in the investigation.

“The case is being investigated for criminal intimidation,” he said.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...960&sec=nation

P/S: "Bodo punya orang ... akai tarak!!" (what a stupid man...with no brain) :enough!:
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Zahida
10-29-2008, 09:04 AM
:enough!::enough!::enough!::enough!::enough!::enou gh!: HE SHOULD BE GIVEN THE SAME TREATMENT HE GAVE HIS WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:enough!:
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north_malaysian
10-29-2008, 09:33 AM
The wife was too nice enough to go to the house of the woman that her husband is crazy about just to get consent from her to marry that old man!

And it's not the wife's fault that the other woman is already married.

I really want to kick this guy!:enough!:
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Malaikah
10-29-2008, 09:44 AM
He doesn't even deserve to have one wife, let alone two!
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 09:56 AM
Polygamy's legal in Malaysia? I want to have 4 wives and move to KL. :D
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 10:03 AM
you wouldbe able to keep 4 women happy!!! Us women are very hard to please!! :D
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 10:05 AM
I know. That's the problem okhee.

Best if I marry some traditional Kashmiri Muslim girls, lol, who aren't rebellious. ^__^;;
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 10:10 AM
All women will give you a little bit of grief its their job!! to keep you on your toes!

I spoke to muslim friend in his shop while my partner and I were in there, my partner made a comment about how I was going to be the first of his wives!

so I told him off OBVIOSULY!

but our friend said in these exact words "brother, you could never cope with more than one woman like the one you have! (meaning me!) you run around after that one and moan about it, you couldnt keep 4 of her happy!!!"

and he is right!

i would make his life far to difficult!! and he knows it!! :D
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Zahida
10-29-2008, 10:44 AM
:sl: Hey bro you funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!:w::giggling:
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
Polygamy's legal in Malaysia? I want to have 4 wives and move to KL. :D
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 11:10 AM
That man should be castrated with a parang.
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 11:13 AM
I agree, all jokes aside, its disgusting to hurt someone you are supposed love and cherish, I dont understand how any man can do it.

I know in Islam beating is not permitted, but is there anything else to "punish" (not brutally) anyone?
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 11:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
I agree, all jokes aside, its disgusting to hurt someone you are supposed love and cherish, I dont understand how any man can do it.

I know in Islam beating is not permitted, but is there anything else to "punish" (not brutally) anyone?
Well, you can't punish that woman in that scenario under any Islamic rule - seeing as she has done no wrong at all.

For very rebellious wives, you are allowed to hit her, in a means where no mark/bruise are formed and you don't hit her on the face - where you can only use your hand, or a siwaak - in a unviolent/unexaggerated manner. But, that obviously does not count towards the woman in the OP.
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Danah
10-29-2008, 11:17 AM
what rudeness, after what his wife did to him and he still agitated ?
argggggghh I want to shoot his head if I meet him
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 11:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Well, you can't punish that woman in that scenario under any Islamic rule - seeing as she has done no wrong at all.

For very rebellious wives, you are allowed to hit her, in a means where no mark/bruise are formed and you don't hit her on the face - where you can only use your hand, or a siwaak - in a unviolent/unexaggerated manner. But, that obviously does not count towards the woman in the OP.
So you are allowed to hit her? i personally dont agree with that being permitted, What happened to talking about things, there would be a reason why she is being rebellious, so surely solving it is better than making her fear you.
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 11:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
So you are allowed to hit her? i personally dont agree with that being permitted, What happened to talking about things, there would be a reason why she is being rebellious, so surely solving it is better than making her fear you.
It has been made as a last resort - and it is not promoted or encouraged - just permissable, as a last resort to someone who is very rebellious.
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Ansariyah
10-29-2008, 11:26 AM
He wanted to shoot her?..For that? Who does he think he is? what an idiot.
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mohammed_alim
10-29-2008, 11:40 AM
i dont think hittin ur wife is allowed even if there is no bruises!!! if we r allowed to hit women then they r allowed to hit back. works both ways. does any 1 know if our prophet mohammed PBUH ever hit any of his wifes?????
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 11:45 AM
The Qur'an makes it quite clear that you can hit your wife without injuring her. In other words, it's effectively banned. Only the psychological impact exists, not the physical one.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zahida
:sl: Hey bro you funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!:w::giggling:
Jazakallah. ^^;;

Actually, I was joking around. I can't imagine myself having more than one wife.
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 11:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mohammed_alim
i dont think hittin ur wife is allowed even if there is no bruises!!! if we r allowed to hit women then they r allowed to hit back. works both ways. does any 1 know if our prophet mohammed PBUH ever hit any of his wifes?????
Its clear in the Qur'an and hadith:

The Qur'an:
Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."


Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them.

Ishaq 969 - Commands that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

The tafsirs of the Qur'an, testify it to.

Tafsir Al-jalalayn

Men are in charge of, they have authority over, women, disciplining them and keeping them in check, because of that with which God has preferred the one over the other, that is, because God has given them the advantage over women, in knowledge, reason, authority and otherwise, and because of what they expend, on them [the women], of their property. Therefore righteous women, among them, are obedient, to their husbands, guarding in the unseen, that is, [guarding] their private parts and otherwise during their spouses’ absence, because of what God has guarded, for them, when He enjoined their male spouses to look after them well. And those you fear may be rebellious, disobedient to you, when such signs appear, admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds]. If they then obey you, in what is desired from them, do not seek a way against them, a reason to strike them unjustly. God is ever High, Great, so beware of Him, lest He punish you for treating them unjustly.
Tafsir Ibn Abbas

Men are in charge of women) they are in charge of overseeing the proper conduct of women, (because Allah hath made the one of them) the men through reason and the division of booty and estates (to excel the other) the women, (and because they spend of their property (for the support of women)) through paying the dowry and spending on them, which the women are not required to do. (So good women) He says: those wives who are kind to their husbands (are the obedient) they are obedient to Allah regarding their husbands, (guarding) their own persons and the wealth of their husbands (in secret) when their husbands are not present (that which Allah hath guarded) through Allah's protection of them in that He gave them the success to do so. (As for those from whom ye fear) know (rebellion) their disobedience to you in bed, (admonish them) by means of sacred knowledge and the Qur'an (and banish them to beds apart) turn your faces away from them in bed, (and scourge them) in a mild, unexaggerated manner. (Then if they obey you) in bed, (seek not a way against them) as regards love. (Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted) above every single thing, (Great) greater than every single thing. Allah has not burdened you with that which you cannot bear, so do not burden women with that which they cannot bear of affection.
So yes, it is allowed, but, not in a violent/exaggerated manner.
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 12:02 PM
poor women, she even went to the other ladies house for her husband, i think he needs to wake up n see his got a queen by his side
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 12:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I know. That's the problem okhee.

Best if I marry some traditional Kashmiri Muslim girls, lol, who aren't rebellious. ^__^;;
LOL keeps us in touch how it all goes brother
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mohammed_alim
10-29-2008, 12:07 PM
u guys were rite thanx i looked it up myself....
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doorster
10-29-2008, 12:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mohammed_alim
i dont think hittin ur wife is allowed even if there is no bruises!!! if we r allowed to hit women then they r allowed to hit back. works both ways. does any 1 know if our prophet mohammed PBUH ever hit any of his wifes?????
[start sarcasm]ooh don't say that, we are not allowed to unless we can first get seal of approval from someone approved by al saud e.g Munajjid[/end sarcasm]

saying correct things here is like trying to light up a dark wind tunnel with a candle

:w:
edit:
format_quote Originally Posted by mohammed_alim
u guys were rite thanx i looked it up myself....
there you go, now you too have been "blessed" by the light spread here by sixten school of sharia
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 12:23 PM
I still think if my other half raised his hand to me I would be gone like a shot, he wouldnt raise his hand to me anyway but if he did, I would walk straight out on him. and like someone said before, If a man hits a woman then she has a right to hit him back, its self defence.

conclusion,

I would not stand for it, thats not me rebelling against anything but unfairness.
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mohammed_alim
10-29-2008, 12:23 PM
i dnt no wat u mean?? i wud never ever hit my wife bcos she no's wat makes me happy n wat dont and i no same abt her. we av an understanding between us. if there is ever any problems we talk it over n sort it out.
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
[start sarcasm]ooh don't say that, we are not allowed to unless we can first get seal of approval from someone approved by al saud e.g Munajjid[/end sarcasm]

saying correct things here is like trying to light up a dark wind tunnel with a candle

:w:
edit:

there you go, now you too have been "blessed" by the light spread here by sixten school of sharia
Someone looks like they want to get warned. If you had any common sense, you would know its not my opinion, but that of a huge consensus of muslim scholars. Don't hit your head on the way out of this thread.
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buddy1
10-29-2008, 12:26 PM
talking about the problem - Thats what people do nawadays, its so old fashioned hitting your wife. there are strict laws against it.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 12:26 PM
sick man, someone should shoot him out of a cannon
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doorster
10-29-2008, 12:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Someone looks like they want to get warned. If you had any common sense, you would know its not my opinion, but that of a huge consensus of muslim scholars. Don't hit your head on the way out of this thread.
no doubt the same scholars who taught you that descent from ape is possible and breeding of pigs and leather from pigskin is technically halal?
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Güven
10-29-2008, 12:31 PM
What tha **** ?

thats insane...

:w:
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
no doubt the same scholars who taught you that descent from ape is possible and breeding of pigs and leather from pigskin is technically halal?
Looks like you fail to understand anything (evident from previous neg reps you have given me).

And, who said anything about pigskin? You are going to be added to my ignore list, you are just a waste of time.
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
no doubt the same scholars who taught you that descent from ape is possible and breeding of pigs and leather from pigskin is technically halal?
please do inform us of such scholars, its good to have an open mind
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doorster
10-29-2008, 12:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Looks like you fail to understand anything (evident from previous neg reps you have given me).

And, who said anything about pigskin? You are going to be added to my ignore list, you are just a waste of time.
following quote might ring a bell
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I've come across pictures of hijabi Malay girls posing with pigs. I wonder what was the meaning of that, lol. As far as I understand, Allah (SWT) has created every creature for a purpose. He has forbidden us from eating pork, that's all. So, what's wrong with working in a pig farm? I haven't come accross any aya stating that it's forbidden to own pigs for any purpose apart from eating them. I mean, pigs are a good source of leather, after all.

Intolerance. Pure intolerance.
Although you have some technical valid points - the problem is - the intent of those farms, that is, sell off pork for people to eat - albeit them being non-muslim.

This itself is not allowed, as is, you can't sell alcohol to non-muslims.
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Sahabiyaat
10-29-2008, 03:19 PM
the older these men get, the more wives they want.

If my husband wanted to remarry at that age and after so many yrears of being together, it would cause me hurt beyond words, but i would let him, and that would be the end of our relationship.Id live with him, clean up after him, cook his food, to seek reward from Allah, but i could never even smile at him again, let alone show any love.

Women have to endure so much, ...this poor poor woman, first the hurt of him requesting a second wife at that age!...then the humiliation of actually being forced to go ask for her hand for her own husband!....and then being beaten up for something beyond her control....

Can some brother tell me why you men are like this?
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm not like that. +o(
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Nájlá
10-29-2008, 03:38 PM
arghhhhhhh i wanna shoot this stupid man :enough!:
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Sahabiyaat
10-29-2008, 03:40 PM
reading about incidents like this really makes me lose hope in people....It takes so much for me to convince myself that there are good people out there, but things like this, make me lose all hope in an instant....its just so sad isnt it. :(
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 03:47 PM
That's like an Islamophobe saying there's no hope for Muslims, all are terrorists, etc etc.

That's like saying all women are *****y, like to gossip, and spread false rumors.

Sisters, this is one man. He doesn't represent all men.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
reading about incidents like this really makes me lose hope in people....It takes so much for me to convince myself that there are good people out there, but things like this, make me lose all hope in an instant....its just so sad isnt it. :(
think of ten people who you know are better then you who exist today

that should help you restore your faith in people


if you cant do that, then... lol you got superiority issues :p
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Sahabiyaat
10-29-2008, 03:51 PM
:hmm: i know....just makes me sick, these incidents do.
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Sahabiyaat
10-29-2008, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mz
think of ten people who you know are better then you who exist today

that should help you restore your faith in people


if you cant do that, then... lol you got superiority issues :p
i cant name 10 good men i know! ....i can prob name a couple, and thats not much.and women are even less! lol.....and i do not have superiority issues!...i hope! ...i just dont like lustful, wife beating, stinky old men. :enough!:

i dont want to hijack the thread my brothers, please carrry on people.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
i cant name 10 good men i know! ....i can prob name a couple, and thats not much.and women are even less! lol.....and i do not have superiority issues!...i hope! ...i just dont like lustful, wife beating, stinky old men. :enough!:

i dont want to hijack the thread my brothers, please carrry on people.
i didnt mean men you KNOW as in your brothers/father etc, i meant even on TV, around the world, etc like jalal ibn saeed, Muhammad Al Faqih, Awlaki just to name a few :p !


yeah i dont like those men either

may Allah keep me and my brothers safe from coming close to becoming anything like that, Ameen
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Sahabiyaat
10-29-2008, 04:01 PM
yes you do not want to become wife-beating, stinky and old.Ameen!
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 04:02 PM
i have no problem with becoming old


as long as old doesnt entail feeble that is or ugly
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 04:08 PM
Old is gold.
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جوري
10-29-2008, 04:41 PM
You shouldn't beat your wife even gently .. thought this discussion was a done deal?
If you have pugilistic issues (I know I do) then invest in boxing equipment or join a gym..
"Never beat God's handmaidens."
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

I am surprised how many of you out there are ignorant of this!
Sob7an Allah..


| Home Page | Email | LIVE Broadcasts | Order Tapes, Videos & CDs | EZ-Islam |
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Author:
Br. Estes

RasulAllah P.B.U.H. Said:
"Never beat God's handmaidens."
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"


Question:
Could you please tell me why the Quran tells men to "beat them" meaning their wives? (chapter 4, verse 34)

Answer:
Thank you for asking about Islam. It is our committment to try our best to provide answers to questions to the best of our ability. However, sometimes we come across questions for which we do not have answers. In this case we will refer you to others who may be able to provide you with proper answers.

Please be aware that we as Muslims, must never lie about anything, especially our religion.

Secondly, we do have the original text of the Quran and the preserved teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him. This enables us to verify exactly what was said, intended and taught by Muhammad, peace be upon him, as being the religion of Islam.

Third, I would like to remind myself and all who read this in the future that not all questions are purely questions. Some contain statements and implications, that may or may not be true.

Finally, it is important to keep in mind anytime we discover something in the answers to actually be better than what we already have, we should be committed to change our position and accept that which is true over that which is false and take that which is better for that which is inferior.

After taking all of the above into consideration, if we find that the answer to this question provides us with a better approach to understanding what Almighty God has provided us with as a way of life on this earth and in the Next Life, we should then make the logical decsion to begin to worship Him on His terms.

Having said that, let us now look to the particular verse in question in the original text (Arabic), followed by the phonetic sounds in Latin letters and then finally, followed by a translation of the meaning to the English language by experts in both Arabic and in Quranic meanings.




Transliteration
Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisa-i bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran

Explanation (tafsir) of Sura 4:34
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding the woman who is guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Meaning of the Words
For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here ‘speak to them in a persuasive manner’, ‘leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),’ and ‘have intercourse’, respectively, see Raghib Lisan al-'Arab and Zamakhsari. Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qur'an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. Fa-'izu, he says, means to 'to talk to them so persuasively as to melt their hearts.'
(See also v.63 of this Surah where it has been used in a similar sense.)
Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or moleste them)
Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding women guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Let me begin by explaining the English language is not powerful enough when it comes to translating the meanings of the Arabic of the Quran. Nor for that matter, is any other language on earth. So, all we have is translations of meanings according to the best understanding of the translators.

The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning. Let us examine them.

Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:
Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat)

Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, 'the stud camel covered the she-camel,' which is also quoted by Lisan al-'Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)
One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:
Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala “Thus Allah sets forth a parable”
[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]
Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”
And again in the next verse: Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi
“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]
Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi
“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
Surah Ar-Rum (30:28) Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum
“He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”
Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”
In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.
The words for (beat) as in [to hit] found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."

As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).
Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behavior. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.

The first part of 34 deals with all men taking care of all women. Then goes on to explain the wife's proper obedience to Allah because He is the One Who has ordained this relationship of provision and protection for her and to be appreciative and respectful of her husband, guarding herself and his property in his absence. The man is told the proper way to behave when he finds his wife not complying with decency and proper behavior of a Muslim wife. He has a direct order to begin with admonishing her and then if there is compliance to leave her be and don't give her a hard time about it.

However, if this continues, he should not have sex with her and this makes it clear to her that he is most serious and this not a joke. Again, if she comes around then he is to let it go and not bother her about it. Finally, if she still insists on such lewdness and bad conduct, he is to make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that they are going to be heading for separation or even divorce unless she comes back to proper behavior. Again, if she complies, then he should not bring it up and return to the bed with her.
And of course, this is all in an effort to translate one short but powerful phrase from Arabic to English. The sources are quoted herein and there may be other interpretations but the only acceptable ones are those based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.
And as always, Allahu 'Alim (Allah is the Knower)

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari as mentioned above and those who are well grounded in both Islam understanding and the English language.
34.
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.
The understanding now is that some of the translations are not properly representing the spirit of the meaning. Therefore, they cannot be considered to be the representation of what has been intended by Almighty God.

Now we can properly understand that Almighty God has commanded the men to provide for the women and allow them to keep all of their wealth, inheritance and income without demanding anything from them for support and maintenance. Additionally, if she should be guilty of lewd or indecent conduct, the husband is told to first, admonish her and then if she would cease this lewdness. If she should continue in this indecency, then he should no longer share the bed with her, and this would continue for a period of time. Finally, if she would repent then he would take up sharing the bed with her again.

And Allah is All Knowing of the meanings.
Reply

Zahida
10-29-2008, 05:58 PM
Well done!!!! Where are the rest of the male population???????????
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I'm not like that. +o(
Reply

Zahida
10-29-2008, 06:04 PM
:sl: Skye this is for you CONGRATULATIONS! That was a good post. I am quite angry because men think women are a joke and can make a joke of this situation, they are forgetting that this is real and this woman represents to us a Mother figure, what she has gone through is unacceptable. I want to reach out and hug her and protect her...........

Boys be mature about this!!!!:w:
Reply

SixTen
10-29-2008, 09:33 PM
You shouldn't beat your wife even gently .. thought this discussion was a done deal?
If you have pugilistic issues (I know I do) then invest in boxing equipment or join a gym..
"Never beat God's handmaidens."
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

I am surprised how many of you out there are ignorant of this!
Sob7an Allah..
Thats all very well - with all respects sis - but, their are authentic scholars who do not prohibit it - or even translate it as that guy has done so.

I won't ever be hitting anyone - but then I also know that we should not distort what was allowed or not - based on how we grew up.

Islam QA on the issue

With regard to hitting one’s wife, this is not the first choice of ways to discipline her. First of all one should exhort and advise her. If that does not work, then (the husband) should forsake her in bed [i.e., not have conjugal relations with her]. If that does not work, then he may hit her, but not severely, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning);
Even some other madhab websites I visited, stated the same. Anyone have any opinions from the 4 schools, or very authoritive scholars who share the opinon of this article?

I don't think Ahmed Ali from Princeston uni, as well as some other contemporary scholars - who have done similar work (personal translation/interpration?) - actually hold a authorative consensus on the issue.

I am not promoting wife hitting - and even when one accepts the Qur'an allows it - it does not mean the Qur'an promotes it. Permisibility =/= promoted. Just as the sharia allows a man to marry a 2nd wife without the permission of the 1st, just because it is allowed, doesn't mean scholars will ever advice you to do this.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zahida
Well done!!!! Where are the rest of the male population???????????
its sad if we actually have to announce it .... seriously..
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جوري
10-29-2008, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Thats all very well - with all respects sis - but, their are authentic scholars who do not prohibit it - or even translate it as that guy has done so.

I won't ever be hitting anyone - but then I also know that we should not distort what was allowed or not - based on how we grew up.

.
How do you deem a scholar authentic or inauthentic I am curious?
There is such a thing in Islam as Ijtihad!

there is also rules on grammar.. do you speak Arabic? I do.. There is more than one meaning to the word.. whether or not you speak Arabic, merely browse the Quran and you'll find it for instance

فَضَرَبْنَا عَلَى آذَانِهِمْ فِي الْكَهْفِ سِنِينَ عَدَدًا {11}
[Yusufali 18:11] Then We draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of years, in the Cave, (so that they heard not):
[Pickthal 18:11] Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.

here is that word again 'fa'darabna'
do you think God smacked their ears? beat their ears?
what is your rendering as a scholar and a polyglot?

or should I await a cut and paste from a scholar you deem authentic?

It doesn't bother me personally, even if you thought that was a good approach to your wife... I am putting it out there so folks can use their mind and decide for themselves!


all the best
Reply

SixTen
10-29-2008, 09:43 PM
I deem it authentic - if it has basis in the 4 main schools.

Also, itjihaad is forbidden by many, on many issues - it is only the shi'a sect which actively allows itjihaad.

Anyway, the arabic part is irrelevant. With the same arguement, we can defend those scholars who say hijaab isn't in the Qur'an.

If your opinion has basis in the 4 schools, I'll give it value.
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doorster
10-29-2008, 09:51 PM
you still have not told me which of the 4 schools made pig leather halal nor have you told me yet as to which of them preached the possibility of man descending from ape (was it the mouse warrior? I wonder!)
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
I deem it authentic - if it has basis in the 4 main schools.

Also, itjihaad is forbidden by many, on many issues - it is only the shi'a sect which actively allows itjihaad.

Anyway, the arabic part is irrelevant. With the same arguement, we can defend those scholars who say hijaab isn't in the Qur'an.

If your opinion has basis in the 4 schools, I'll give it value.
where is this >> 33:59 found but in Quraan o mighty "salafi"?

I know google is great for copy pasting "knowledge" but its even better when one know what to look for
Reply

جوري
10-29-2008, 09:52 PM
amazing..
which one said it was ok to beat your wife? Hanafi? Shafi? Maliki or Hanbali?
I'd like the Quote by the original scholar!
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Zahida
10-29-2008, 10:06 PM
:sl:Yes very sad................. First of all may i point out to you that what has angered me most about this is the age of the poor woman!! Like i said she [B]REPRESENTS a mother figure for us .......... and we should respect that. If this was happening to one of our own mothers (Allah have Mercy) then how would we feel........... instead this has gone from one extreme to the other and pigskins are being discussed.

I do not wish to offend any of the posters above but i think Skye is the only one who has taken this matter seriously and looked into it with thought and understanding........ This poor woman has not done anything wrong but obeyed her husband.........and has been treated by him in this manner where has she broken the law what crime has she committed??:enough!::w:
format_quote Originally Posted by Mz
its sad if we actually have to announce it .... seriously..
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doorster
10-29-2008, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zahida
:sl:Yes very sad................. First of all may i point out to you that what has angered me most about this is the age of the poor woman!! Like i said she [b]REPRESENTS a mother figure for us .......... and we should respect that. If this was happening to one of our own mothers (Allah have Mercy) then how would we feel........... instead this has gone from one extreme to the other and pigskins are being discussed.

I do not wish to offend any of the posters above but i think Skye is the only one who has taken this matter seriously and looked into it with thought and understanding........ This poor woman has not done anything wrong but obeyed her husband.........and has been treated by him in this manner where has she broken the law what crime has she committed??:enough!::w:
if you had taken the trouble to read or understand, you would know that this person has been preaching all sorts of rubbish and lies which should be exposed lest some one starts taking "knowledge" from him. each time he is proven wrong by quotes from contemporary scholars, he resorts to insulting them and starts to claim that he is follower of Salaf.:rollseyes

and it is our right to know which of the Salaf made things like pig breeding and leather halal

wa salam
from one extreme to the other and pigskins are being discussed.
that is an attempt on my part to remind you all about is previous posts

Read this http://www.islamicboard.com/1039203-post53.html and pay particular attention to the red part in text quoted from him
Reply

Zahida
10-29-2008, 10:55 PM
:sl: I do believe this thread was about the woman who had gotten beaten by her husband for something which was not a crime or sin???? Sorry for my ignorance........ And yes you are quite right it is your duty as it is mine and everyone elses to educate one another on what we do not know and share this..........:w:QUOTE=doorster;1039286]if you had taken the trouble to read or understand, you would know that this person has been preaching all sorts of rubbish and lies which should be exposed lest some one starts taking "knowledge" from him. each time he is proven wrong by quotes from contemporary scholars, he resorts to insulting them and starts to claim that he is follower of Salaf.:rollseyes

and it is our right to know which of the Salaf made things like pig breeding and leather halal

wa salam
that is an attempt on my part to remind you all about is previous posts

Read this http://www.islamicboard.com/1039203-post53.html and pay particular attention to the red part in text quoted from him[/QUOTE]
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 11:58 PM
Zahida you are being over-emotional

no one supported this sick-mans action as you will clearlyfind from my first remark in this thread, which i still support btw, he should indeed be shot out of a cannon.


preferably into thorns or fire, but whatever eh :ooh:
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north_malaysian
10-30-2008, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
Polygamy's legal in Malaysia? I want to have 4 wives and move to KL. :D
Yes... polygamous marriage is allowed in all 13 states and 3 federal territories in Malaysia.

But, in most states, a man need consent from his current wife/wives in order he want to marry another woman.....

In some states, there would be hearing conducted by Sharia Courts... to examine whether the man is fit physically, financially or emotionally to have another wife...

And in most states, polygamous marriage is one of a ground for a wife to seek divorce... ie. Ali want Amina's consent to marry Fatima....Amina can use this reason that she would never give consent and and want a divorce from Ali.

But, there is one state which needs no consent from the existing wife or court's findings in order for a man to have a polygamous marriage. It's the smallest state in Malaysia called Perlis. They even encourage men from other states to come to Perlis and have an easy polygamous marriage.
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The Khan
10-30-2008, 01:26 AM
I see. I assumed Terengganu would have the easiest polygamy law, considering it's generally depicted as the most orthodox state in Malaysia.
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north_malaysian
10-30-2008, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
I see. I assumed Terengganu would have the easiest polygamy law, considering it's generally depicted as the most orthodox state in Malaysia.
Terengganu is the state with the highest % of Muslims...but when it comes to religiousness.... personally I believe Kelantan Muslims are the most religious people in Malaysia... the proof is that... they've elected the Islamists to rule the state since 1990 until now.

FYI, Shafi'i madhhab is the official madhhab in all states but Perlis. Perlis dont follow particular madhhab and majority of the Muslims in Perlis are Salafis.
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The Khan
10-30-2008, 02:31 AM
Salafis are present in Malaysia? :O

No wonder their polygamy law is so.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-30-2008, 07:33 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by The Khan
Best if I marry some traditional Kashmiri Muslim girls, lol, who aren't rebellious.
or perhaps you should treat your wife well to begin with, and she wont 'rebel' :rollseyes
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SixTen
10-30-2008, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
amazing..
which one said it was ok to beat your wife? Hanafi? Shafi? Maliki or Hanbali?
I'd like the Quote by the original scholar!

The quote from the original scholar does not = representation of the whole school - its not how the madhabs work (Imam Shafi for example, deemed shaving of the beard unlawful in his Umm, but the official position of the madhab is that it is offensive rather than unlawful).. And actually, if anyone does have it directly from them, please do share.

Anyway, you can read some opinions from the scholars of the schools - you will see they all discourage it, but they do not forbid the hit.

Anyway, their is no need for this to be a hostile debate. I am asking (as I do not have a lot of information regarding Malik/Hanbal schools), does anyone have opinions rooted from the salaf? Surely its understandable why I cannot accept Br Estes opinion as he did not mention any prominent scholars in his article (or fatwa?)

You can never be too careful, nowadays we have progressionist itjihaad everywhere - heck even non-muslims start to debate against qualified scholars - because they feel they have the true interpretation from having watched somthing like Channel 4's Qur'an :blind: (which contained many orientalist and progressionist interpretations - and then people put these on the same level as those of the scholars of the past - infact just the other day - I was debating against a non-muslim on the hijaab, she was adamant that it is not in the Qur'an and that it is only (astagfirullah) closet homosexual scholars who say so! The worlds gone mad >.<)

I guess, my problem was your comment of
I am surprised how many of you out there are ignorant of this!
- it wasn't a fair comment, as you did not establish a viewpoint from the salaf, but merely that of Br Estes, which if wrong - will unjustly confuse brothers and sisters. (Not saying it is your intention to but you know..)

I will like to just remind, none of the schools would promoted - and also - I am a stern that I would never hit my wife belive you me and my opinion on the issue is not to do with WHAT I BELIEVE IS GOOD MEANS. I am just trying to avoid the trap of accepting somthing, because it seems appealing due to my own morals, rather than what Allah has allowed and dissallowed. You know, somtimes you got to accept things and reject things for the sake of Allah - as you would have to love and hate things for him - even if you yourself are not "comfortable" with the ruling.

So to conclude, if someone does have this as a basis from the salaf, I am very happy to give it seal of approval :thumbs_up (though technically I can't :exhausted )
And Allah knows best
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buddy1
10-30-2008, 10:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramlah
:sl:



or perhaps you should treat your wife well to begin with, and she wont 'rebel' :rollseyes
Well Said, Treat others how you wish to be treated, therefore, you treat your Wife well, she will treat you well! Comprende!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Zahida
:sl:Yes very sad................. First of all may i point out to you that what has angered me most about this is the age of the poor woman!! Like i said she [B]REPRESENTS a mother figure for us .......... and we should respect that. If this was happening to one of our own mothers (Allah have Mercy) then how would we feel........... instead this has gone from one extreme to the other and pigskins are being discussed.

I do not wish to offend any of the posters above but i think Skye is the only one who has taken this matter seriously and looked into it with thought and understanding........ This poor woman has not done anything wrong but obeyed her husband.........and has been treated by him in this manner where has she broken the law what crime has she committed??:enough!::w:
I do agree with you, I once worked at a crown court and i used to sit in on public galleries on my breaks,

one I sat in was a man had beaten his fiancee so hard she had to reconstructive surgery on her face. and the judge said,

A woman is a motherly figure, she will hug you when you need it and calm you when necessary, just like your mother would when you were young. Would you ever raise your hand to your mother??

he hung his head in shame and cried. he got 2 years in prison, and 1 for good behaivour, where was the justice in that. but the point i am trying to raise is you wouldnt hit your mother, and you would go mad if anyone hit your mother so where in all of that does the right come in for your to hit your lady? I think it shows weakness!
Reply

Zahida
10-30-2008, 07:16 PM
:sl: Thankyou for that buddy....... The poor woman is old enough to be either one of our mothers.......... i wept when i heard this and wept even more for her when i learnt of her age............ Allah have Mercy on HIs Mankind, and fill our hearts with love, peace and harmony............... All this makes me want to curl up into a ball and hide away.........:cry::w:
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
Well Said, Treat others how you wish to be treated, therefore, you treat your Wife well, she will treat you well! Comprende!!



I do agree with you, I once worked at a crown court and i used to sit in on public galleries on my breaks,

one I sat in was a man had beaten his fiancee so hard she had to reconstructive surgery on her face. and the judge said,

A woman is a motherly figure, she will hug you when you need it and calm you when necessary, just like your mother would when you were young. Would you ever raise your hand to your mother??

he hung his head in shame and cried. he got 2 years in prison, and 1 for good behaivour, where was the justice in that. but the point i am trying to raise is you wouldnt hit your mother, and you would go mad if anyone hit your mother so where in all of that does the right come in for your to hit your lady? I think it shows weakness!
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-30-2008, 07:21 PM
:salamext:

The star newspaper is one most unreliable news paper out there. It's full of gossip and rumours.
Reply

Malaikah
10-30-2008, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
talking about the problem - Thats what people do nawadays, its so old fashioned hitting your wife. there are strict laws against it.
If you read sixtens post properly you would have realised that hitting is only permitted when TALKING FAILS.

And we are talking about the kind of hit a women would need to seek self defense from either. It is more like a tap.

format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
Well Said, Treat others how you wish to be treated, therefore, you treat your Wife well, she will treat you well! Comprende!
No. Not at all. By that logic, the women in this article must have done something really bad for her husband to get angry with her!

format_quote Originally Posted by buddy1
but the point i am trying to raise is you wouldnt hit your mother, and you would go mad if anyone hit your mother so where in all of that does the right come in for your to hit your lady? I think it shows weakness!
The point is that is is disiplinary not just because they had a fight, and that it is as a LAST resort (i.e. teh situation is coming close to divorce) and in a way that does not cause any harm and should be light such that it does not cause pain.

Therefore examples of how a women needed surgery are irrelevant because Islam does not permit that.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-30-2008, 09:15 PM
i think i'll emphasise that hitting women was hated by the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam greatly.


it is a last resort:


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BXJBj7Rj0yg
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The Khan
10-30-2008, 09:23 PM
Hitting women is wrong, mmkay... except, as you said bro, a last resort.
Reply

qassy!
10-30-2008, 10:26 PM
i personaly like to meet this man. i would introduce myself and my cricket bat 2 his face
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جوري
10-30-2008, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
The quote from the original scholar does not = representation of the whole school -
You'll forgive me for not reading all that, I have a long and trying day..
what schools of thoughts are you following then? on what grounds when they have so far strayed?
The original scholars followed proper sunna!.. and prophet Mohammed SAW stated 'never beat God's handmaidens'.
a school of thought can only be formed from original sunna, as you have so proudly stated not a couple of posts ago 'ijtihad' isn't allowed.. well what do you think a fatwa is?
If it wasn't done or endorsed by the prophet or the original scholars, then Br. Estes or br. a7med or brother McNeil's opinion is a mere ijtihad!


The Prophet has the authority to permit and prohibit (Al-A`raf 7:157). And, finally, whatever the Prophet gives, must be taken; whatever he forbids, must be eschewed (Al-Hashr 59:7).


Thus any secondary opinion evolving from the original is well a subaltern! a fatwa, and 'ijtihad'...

you feel it ok as a 'last resort' by all means.. you want to promote it here, again?, by all means.. but the prophet and the original scholars didn't condone that even as a last option!

all the best

P.S .. who would have thunk it and this by noway meant as a derision.. but you aren't even willing to admit you are a Muslim, and from what I have read, have some eschewed non orthodox opinions about evolution, but such strong convictions when it comes to hitting women..

amazing!

:w:
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جوري
10-31-2008, 12:02 AM
Addendum to above

Sunan Abu Dawud

Book 033, Hadith Number 4478.
------------------------------
Chapter : Not known.

Narated By Abu Hurairah : The Prophet (pbuh) said: When one of you inflicts a beating, he should avoid striking the face.


Book 005, Hadith Number 2138.
------------------------------
Chapter : Not known.

Narated By Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah : I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.
Reply

جوري
10-31-2008, 01:22 AM
by the way, I found this on Load Islam..
of all places =)

Misconceptions

Islam and the Independent Thinker

By : Al-Jumuah



Islam encourages ijtihad, which is translated as "independent opinion or judgment." Its purpose is to update, amend, and review matters of religion. It is especially needed whenever new situations are encountered, particularly when they have not been addressed in a timely manner.

Ijtihad not only insures that Islam keeps abreast with current trends, but it also protects society from stagnation and prevents cultural imitation from shaping and defining society. The Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be upon him] said, "Allah sends to this Ummah every hundred years, someone who will amend the matters of its religion." (Abu Dawud)

This hadeeth gives a guarantee of renewal and sets a specific period of time during which the trust and responsibility for this religion must be upheld. The trust includes preserving religious texts (i.e., Qur'an and Sunnah), continuing to propagate Islam, and ensuring that Islam has a positive influence on people's lives. It also includes ensuring ijtihad continues. Ijtihad is needed to solve the problems of each time or age, because a judgment that is correct for a particular age will not necessarily by correct for all ages.

Ijtihad, and the updating of religion, does not mean the abrogation of religious texts - it means new understandings in line with existing religious texts. It guides Muslims to solve their problems, especially problems specific to their time and location, and provides solutions in accordance with revelation.

This understanding of ijtihad explains how it is able to immortalize the Islamic message and incorporate Islam into every aspect of life. It provides the means of forming a common understanding of Islam, and helps people's attention to remain focused on an Islamic life, so that they can achieve personal growth and social development.

It is said in a hadeeth, "If a Hakim makes a ruling using his own judgment (ijtihad) and is correct, then he will receive two rewards; and if he makes a ruling and uses his own judgment, and makes a mistake, then he will receive one reward." The Hakim here means anyone who is authorized to give rulings, to look into a matter, or to make an independent judgment (ijtihad) in a case.

No matter what the condition or concerns of a Muslim population, it is a community obligation (fard kifayah) for someone to make the effort to learn the rulings pertaining to different problems and emergency situations. If no one devotes himself to the study of Islamic Law, so that ijtihad can be used to determine ruling concerning recent problems, then all Muslims are in the wrong.

Perhaps it is this condition that prompted a past Imam to say that it is not permissible for any period of time to be devoid of ijtihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah of Allah's Prophet (PBUH.) Another understanding is that one role of a new age, time, or generation, is to expose people to new problems, customs, and situations.

There must always be scholars to perform ijtihad and deduce rulings appropriate to new customs and situations. People's lives are filled with complicated questions, and in some situations it is impossible for them to find satisfactory answers. However, this does not mean that we should surrender to this fact as if it were unsurpassable. The human intellect can take one of two courses when faced with this problem: The first is to assume that the solution does in fact lie within the existing body of law and that it must therefore be possible to rule or govern according to it.

The second is to assume that existing laws do not cover the problem and to seek to deduce laws to deal with it. Between these two assumptions are numerous other possibilities, each lying somewhere between the two extremes. Each assumption has practical implications, but how they manifest themselves will depend on circumstances and human nature, and how closely the problem falls within the scope of the two assumptions.

In summary: The need to open the door of ijtihad has become a pressing one and, therefore, is an obligatory religious duty. This is because we live in a time of continuous, yet permanent changes: A time of confusion in which the specific, the general, the unrestrained, and the limited have become mixed. We have become rich in understanding acts of worship and religious rites, but this has been accompanied by poverty in understanding how to treat people. We lack modern ways of thinking to accompany modern times, and we are out of harmony with the new ways of doing things that surround us.

This reveals the need for an endeavor that will unite the Ummah (Muslim Nation). Together, we must formulate the essential characteristics of a method for dealing with current problems and crises, using as our guidelines the methodology that Allah ordained for His creation.

In encouraging this, we support the opinion of the majority of the scholars who proposed the institution of collective ijtihad for the Ummah. They laid the foundations for a system of consultancy in ijtihad. This was the gathering of scholars that came together for collective ijtihad in the early days of Islam. The scholars were the Companions of the Prophet and the system was called 'ijmaa' or consensus.

There is a need to have a centralized ijmaa' on some basic issues for the entire Muslim Ummah. These issues include: cases that are fundamentally different from any previously known cases for which there were clear rulings; cases whose rulings were given in a different time or place; recent developments especially in areas of rapid change such as science, technology, medicine, war, and agriculture; determining the strongest of sometimes conflicting sayings of past scholars; and determining which opinions are the most suitable for the state of the Ummah in the present time.

Modern civilization suffers from many complicated problems, many of which have arisen due to rapid progress, unbridled development, and unbalanced growth.

The solutions offered by Islam open before all humanity opportunities to overcome present day crises, and heal the rift between spiritual and material values, for the benefit of humankind, the environment, and all other life on earth.

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
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doorster
10-31-2008, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
by the way, I found this on Load Islam..
of all places =)

Misconceptions

Islam and the Independent Thinker

By : Al-Jumuah
:sl:
That was the old LI I bet new LI did not know it was there
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north_malaysian
10-31-2008, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
:salamext:

The star newspaper is one most unreliable news paper out there. It's full of gossip and rumours.

This story is reported by a Malaysian English Language daily called "The Star"... it's also being reported by Malay languuage dailies and the tv stations too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Malaysia)
Reply

SixTen
10-31-2008, 11:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You'll forgive me for not reading all that, I have a long and trying day..
what schools of thoughts are you following then? on what grounds when they have so far strayed?
I take from the Hanafi school, I have read several articles by some scholars I respect, such as Farz Rabbani. They all strongly explained that it is not liked, showed hadiths and so fourth - but again they did not state that it is not mentioned in the Qur'an. The stray so to say, is the translation that it means "appoint people", you know to deal with issue.

The original scholars followed proper sunna!.. and prophet Mohammed SAW stated 'never beat God's handmaidens'.
a school of thought can only be formed from original sunna, as you have so proudly stated not a couple of posts ago 'ijtihad' isn't allowed.. well what do you think a fatwa is?
If it wasn't done or endorsed by the prophet or the original scholars, then Br. Estes or br. a7med or brother McNeil's opinion is a mere ijtihad!



The Prophet has the authority to permit and prohibit (Al-A`raf 7:157). And, finally, whatever the Prophet gives, must be taken; whatever he forbids, must be eschewed (Al-Hashr 59:7).


Thus any secondary opinion evolving from the original is well a subaltern! a fatwa, and 'ijtihad'...
Hmm, again it is posting hadiths, infact hadiths which the scholars who permitted the hitting - to use to show how much it is disliked, disapproved - and that you should not read the Qur'an to be saying as that of "AND HIT THEM", look at Mz's video if you can, by Abdul Raheem Green. What I mean is, it is rather the Qur'an translation that seems alien, to that of how many respectable scholars have stated it as. Hence, I asked, did you have any rooting from the salaf on such interpretation? Or is it just one of the modern ones. I am not a scholar and neither are you

I am not asking if the arabic can be translated to mean that, I am aware that you can translate things in many ways, but I believe that the verses arn't ambigious in preach - that is Allah did not give a Qur'an which is confusing to people, in that - even though you can technically derive several meanings from 1 verse - you can't have contradicting meanings which are all equally weighted as "authentic".

Either way, your comment of "ignorance" was uncalled for, simply due to many respectable scholars not agreeing to that viewpoint of Br Estes, and not just some LI members who arn't scholars. Your comment would have been justified if, that opinion of Br Estes was that of the mainstream, so to speak of.



you feel it ok as a 'last resort' by all means.. you want to promote it here, again?, by all means.. but the prophet and the original scholars didn't condone that even as a last option!
Its not about me, feeling anything. Like I said, I would not ever hit anyone, or even close to hit a wife. My opinion is based nothing on how "I" feel things or how "I" interpret things. I put my trust in scholars which follow the salaf. Hence my query, does Br Este's view go back to early generations? I mean, if his opinon is highly valid, you can say, it is technically "BETTER" for me, as I am unaffected as I would not hit anyway, and that it makes dawah easier to the non-muslims.

P.S .. who would have thunk it and this by noway meant as a derision.. but you aren't even willing to admit you are a Muslim, and from what I have read, have some eschewed non orthodox opinions about evolution, but such strong convictions when it comes to hitting women..

amazing!
Kind of borderline ad-hominem skye >.<, you have a habit of being like this :exhausted

Firstly, I didn't even state my gender, nor my location - wasn't just way of life. It did give a nice "unbiased" look when you discuss though, I have experience in other forums where my posts have been judged merely because I am a muslim, or I am from a certain country, or my gender. However, due to mass confusions/questions (over both deen and gender :S??) I decided to fill them up.

Anyway, most of the sites which I go to don't really talk about science - (atleast where I got views of the woman hitting, I couldn't find articles from them on evolution). I guess, science is like, not a mesh with religion - that is they are 2 different things. I have had differing views over time but this is my finalised view on evolution. Macroevolution if animals did happen, infact none of the fossil record is false - but Adam (as) did not have a forefather - and that view I believe does not contradict Islam. I think brother Ansar's Islamic view on evolution has a good way of putting things, that Islam neither condemns nor condones the evolution theory - and those things may have existed and came about via macroevolution.

My whole quarrel on those threads was merely, that people posting very bad material against evolution. Personally whether one believes any part of evolution or not is irrelevant - but posting bad science is pretty bad dawah, and that is really why I ever even indulge in those threads.

:w:
:w:
Reply

Riyadh-ul-Jannah
10-31-2008, 11:45 AM
:sl:

This man should be chopped with a parang, and he should be beaten,
like he beat his wife, that is wrong, why is it his wifes fault? This man is
stupid!!

:w:
Reply

جوري
10-31-2008, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
I


:w:
I have had an idea who you were from the the second week you signed on, in fact, I have my reasons to suspect you to be a former member who requested or was banned.

It doesn't matter to me which school of thought you follow, or what you deem ad hom or is a habit of mine etc.
There was a time when people needed a fatwa on whether or not they should use a faucet (imagine staying back in prehistoric times on the account it would have been deemed unislamic?.. a thinking Muslim should use his devices what God naturally gave him to reason with proper sunna, and the proper teaching of the original school from which all else has branched in lieu of simply accepting without a rational basis of what was even originally mentioned in hadith!



pls in the future just contract your replies to the two sentences I need to take home.. I can't possibly sit here and sort through an essay that is fully based on a belief of yours and held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof!

all the best

:w:

P.S not that I want to re-touch back on your topic of evo.. it actually had nothing to do with macro or microevolution.. but I don't want to open a bag of worms.. I don't find it entertaining and it is too time consuming!

:w:
Reply

Javba
10-31-2008, 04:55 PM
Bros & Sisters.
Divorce is also allowed in Islam, but most disliked by Allah SWT. Allowance of aggression / hitting is not socially acceotable, nor will benefit health of a marriage.
While 4 wives are allowed, you also have to be able to treat them equally. Try meeting that condition :)
Allah SWT knows best
Jazak Allah
Reply

north_malaysian
10-31-2008, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Riyadh-ul-Jannah
:sl:

This man should be chopped with a parang, and he should be beaten,
like he beat his wife, that is wrong, why is it his wifes fault? This man is
stupid!!

:w:
wow... suddenly the word "Parang" is so famous...:D
Reply

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