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maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:06 PM
Im just wondering does one need to follow a madhab? if so how do u choose which one?
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 01:09 PM
This is a fatwah - defending the position of those who wish to make taqleed on to the madhabs - and are often accused of wrongful blind following.

Shaykh Murabtal Haaj’s Fatwa on Following
One of the Four Accepted Madhhabs
By Murabtal Haaj, Mauritania, Translated by Hamza Yusuf Hanson


In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Amongst the most important replies that I have given, is my reply concerning the one who has deviated to the point where he censures the importance of studying the branches [furu'] of jurisprudence, and we seek refuge in Allah from the deviation of such a wandering deviant. Would that he simply had claimed independent reasoning (ijtihad) for himself only, and Allah is his reckoner, but abandoned the call of Muslims to leave that which is incumbent upon them. In our reply to such a one, we make mention what the scholars of the methodological bases of Islamic jurisprudence (usuli’un) and the Imams of jurisprudence themselves have said about such a matter. As for my labelling him a deviant, it is only because he has desired to impose upon common people the precious rank of absolute independent reasoning [ijtihad], about which Muhammad an-Nabigha said,

And ijtihad in the land of the Moroccans,
The western phoenix has taken to flight with it.
I say in reply, that the following of qualified scholarship (taqlid) is an obligation on anyone other than an absolute mujtahid. I shall make mention of all his prerequisites if Allah wills. [Sidi Abdullah Ould Hajj Ibrahim] has said in his Maraqi as-Sa’ud:
“[taqlid] is necessary for other than the one who has achieved the rank of absolute ijtihad. Even if he is a limited [mujtahid] who is unable [to perform absolute ijtihad].”

Commenting on this line, [Sidi Abdullah] said in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that taqlid is an obligation on anyone who is not an absolute mujtahid, even if he has achieved the limited rank of ijtihad muqayyad . . . [until he says], ‘And ask the people of the reminder, if you yourselves do not know.’”

By using the line of Muhammad an-Nabigha above, I am in no way claiming that all ijtihad has been severed in every land; how [could I say such a thing] when [Sidi Abdullah] says in Maraqi as-sa’ud:

“The earth will never be void of a mujtahid scholar until its very foundations shake.”

He also said,

“[Regarding] the necessity of binding to a specific madhhab, the [scholars] have mentioned its obligation upon anyone falling short [of the conditions of ijtihad].”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is incumbent for whoever falls short of achieving the rank of absolute ijtihad to follow a particular madhhab.”

Again, in Maraqi as-Sa’ud, Sidi Abdullah says,

“The consensus today is on the four, and all have prohibited following [any] others.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“This means that the consensus of the scholars today is on the four schools of thought, and I mean by the schools of Malik, Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Ahmad. Indeed, all of the scholars have prohibited following any other school of an independent and absolute mujtahid since the eighth century when the school of Dawud adh-Dhahiri died out and until the 12th Century and all subsequent ones.”

In the chapter concerning inferential reasoning, from Maraqi as-sa’ud, [Sidi Abdullah] says,

“As for the one who is not a mujtahid, then basing his actions on primary textual evidence [Qur’an and hadith] is not permissible.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is prohibited for other than a mujtahid to base his actions upon a direct text from either the Book or the Sunna even if its transmission was sound because of the sheer likelihood of there being other considerations such as abrogation, limitations, specificity to certain situations, and other such matters that none but the mujtahid fully comprehends with precision. Thus, nothing can save him from Allah the Exalted excepted following a mujtahid.Imam al-Qarafi1 says,

‘And beware of doing what some students do when they reason directly from the hadith, and yet they don’t know their soundness, let alone what has been mentioned [by the Imams] concerning the subtleties involved in them; by doing this, they went astray and led others astray. And whoever interprets a verse or hadith in a manner that deviates from its intended meaning without proof [dalil] is a kafir.’”

As for the conditions of the absolute and independent ijtihad, they are mentioned in the Maraqi as-sa’ud in the following line and what follows:

“And that [word ‘faqih’2] is synonymous with the [word] ‘mujtahid’ coupled with those things which bear upon [him] the burden of responsibility,

Such as his being of extreme intelligence by nature, and there is some debate about one who is known to reject juristic analogy [qiyas]

He knows the [juristic] responsibilities through intellectual proofs unless a clear transmitted proof indicates otherwise.

[Sidi Abdullah] says [in his commentary] Nashru al-bunud,

“This means that among the conditions of ijtihad is that [the mujtahid] knows that he must adhere to the intellectual proof which is the foundational condition [al-bara’atu al-asliyya3] until a transmitted proof from a sacred law indicates otherwise.”

He then goes on to mention the other conditions of a mujtahid:

[The sciences of] grammar, prosody, philology, combined with those of usul and rhetoric he must master.

According to the people of precision, [he must know] where the judgements can be found without the condition of having memorized the actual texts.

[All of the above must be known] according to a middle ranked mastery at least. He must also know those matters upon which there is consensus.

[Moreover, he must know] things such as the condition of single hadiths and what carries the authority of great numbers of transmissions; also [knowledge of] what is sound and what is weak is necessary.

Furthermore, what has been abrogated and what abrogates, as well as the conditions under which a verse was revealed or a hadith was transmitted is a condition that must be met.

The states of the narrators and the companions [must also be known]. Therefore, you may follow anyone who fulfils these conditions mentioned above according to the soundest opinion.

So, consider all of the above-mentioned, and may Allah have mercy upon you, and [may you] see for yourself whether your companion is characterized by such qualities and fulfils these conditions—and I highly doubt it. More likely, he is just pointing people to himself in his demands that the people of this age take their judgements directly from the Book and Sunna. If, on the other hand, he does not possess the necessary conditions, then further discussion is useless.

In Muhammad ‘Illish’s, Fath al-‘Ali al-Malik, there are many strong rebukes for those who wish to force people to abandon the study of the judicial branches and take directly from the Book and the Sunna. The actual text of the question put to him is as follows:

“What do you say about someone who was following one of the four Imams, may Allah the Exalted be pleased with them, and then left claiming that he could derive his judgements directly form the Qur’an and the soundly transmitted hadiths, thus leaving the books of jurisprudence and inclining towards the view of Ahmad bin Idris? Moreover, he says to the one who clings to the speech of the Imams and their followers, “I say to you ‘Allah and His Messenger say’, and you reply ‘Malik said’ and ‘Ibn al-Qasim said’ or ‘Khalil said.’”

To this, Imam ‘Illish replies:

“My answer to this all this is as follows: Praise be to Allah, and Prayer and Safety be upon our Master Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. It is not permissible for a common person to abandon following the four Imams and take directly from the textual sources of the Qur’an and the hadiths for the simple reason that this entails a great many conditions that have been clarified in the books of usul. Moreover, these conditions are rarely met by the great scholars, especially in these last days in which Islam has become a stranger just as it began a stranger.”

Ibn ‘Uyyana, may Allah be pleased with him, has said,

“The hadiths are a source of error except for the jurists.”

What he means is that people, other than the scholars, might interpret a tradition based on an apparent meaning, and yet [the hadith may] have another interpretation based on some other hadith that clarifies the meaning or some proof that remains hidden [to the common people]. After a long discussion, he remarks,

“That as for their saying, ‘How can you leave clear Qur’anic verses and sound hadiths and follow the Imams in their ijtihads, which have a clear probability of error,’”

His answer to them is as follows:

“Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

“Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5,mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

“Thus, as far as this little band of men is concerned, there is only one of two possibilities: either they are attributing ignorance to Imams whose knowledge is considered by consensus to have reached human perfection as witnessed in several traditions of the truthful Lawgiver, upon him be prayers and peace, or they are actually attributing misguidance and lack of din to Imams who are all from the best of generations by the testimony of the magnificent Messenger himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Surely, it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts in our breasts.

As for their saying to the one who imitates Malik, for example, “We say to you ‘Allah says’ or ‘the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, says’ and you reply, ‘Malik says’, or ‘Ibn al-Qasim says’, or ‘Khalil says’, for example,” our response is that the follower who says, “Malik says . . . etc.,” means that, “Malik says based on his deep understanding of the Word of Allah, or of the words of the Messenger, or of those firmly adhering to the actions of the companions, or of the tabi’in who understood clearly the Word of Allah and the word of the Messenger of Allah or took their example from the actions of His Messenger.” And the meaning of [a follower] saying “Ibn al-Qasim said . . .” is that he has [faithfully] transmitted what Malik said based on his understanding of the Word of Allah or of what Ibn al-Qasim himself understood from the word of Allah the Most Exalted. And the meaning of him saying, “Khalil said . . . .”, for example, is that he is transmitting only from those [Imams] aforementioned. As for Malik and Ibn al-Qasim, they are both Imams whose spiritual and judicial authority is agreed upon by unanimous consensus of this Umma; and they are both from the best of generations.

As for the one who leaves their leadership and says, “Allah said and His Messenger said . . . ,” he has relied solely on his own understanding despite the fact that he is incapable of having any precision in the verses and hadiths that he quotes since he is unable even to provide chains of transmission [with any authority], let alone that he lacks knowledge concerning the abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the ambiguous and the clarifying, the apparent and the textual, the general and the specific, the dimensions of the Arabic and the cause for revelation, the various linguistic considerations, and other various ancillary sciences needed. So, consider for yourself which is preferable: the word of a follower who simply quotes the understanding of Malik, an Imam by consensus—or the word of this ignoramus who said “Allah said and His Messenger said . . . .” But it is not the sight that goes blind, but rather the hearts in our breasts.

Furthermore, know that the origin of this deviation is from the Dhahiriyya10 who appeared in Andalucia [Muslim Spain] and whose power waxed from a period until Allah obliterated all traces of them until this little band of men set about to revive their beliefs. Imam al-Barzuli said, “The first one ever to attack the Mudawwana11 was Sa’id bin al-Haddad .”

If you consider carefully the above-mentioned texts, you will realize that the one who censures you from following [the Imams] is truly a deviant. And I am using the word “deviant” to describe them only because the scholars [before me] have labelled this little band and their view (madhhab) as deviant. Moreover, you should know that those who condemn your adherence to the Imams have been fully refuted by Muhammad al-Khadir bin Mayyaba with the most piercing of refutations, and he himself called them, in his book, “the people of deviation and heterodoxy.” He called his book, Refuting the people of deviation of heterodoxy who attack the following [taqlid] of the Imams of independent reasoning, and I used to have a copy but no longer do. So, my brother, I seriously warn you from following the madhhab of these people and even from sitting in their company, unless there is an absolute necessity, and certainly from listening to anything they have to say, because the scholars have declared their ideas deviant. Ibn al-Hajj says in his book, al-Madkhal,

“Umar ibn al-‘Aziz said, ‘Never give one whose heart is deviant access to your two ears, for surely you never know what may find fixity in you.’”

I ask Allah to make you and me from those who listen to matters and follow the best of them.


Footnotes

Ahmad ibn Idris Shihabudin as-Sanhaji al-Qarafi al-Maliki was born in Egypt in the seventh Century, and died there in the year 684. He was one of the greatest Maliki scholars who ever lived and is especially known for his work in methodology and law (usul al-fiqh). He was a master of the Arabic language and has remarkable works in grammar. His book adh-Dhakhira is a magisterial 14 volume work recently published in the Emirates, that looks at Maliki fiqh with proofs from usuli sources. He is buried in Qarafi in Egypt near Imam as-Shafi’i. May Allah have mercy on them both. [BACK]
Sidi Abdullah says in his commentary on this line that the faqih is synonymous with mujtahid in the science of usul. There are different types of faqih. A faqih according to the scholars of usul is anyone who has achieved the rank of ijtihad. According to the scholars of furu’u, a faqih is anyone who has reached the level of knowledge in which he can give valid juristic opinion. This latter definition is important considering endowments that are given to fuqaha. See Nashur al-bunud `ala maraqi as-sa’ud, kitab al-ijtihad fi al-furu’u (1409 Hijrah. Beirut: Maktabat al-Kutub. p.309) [BACK]
The foundational condition is that a human being is not asked by Allah to do anything other than those things which have a firm proof through the transmission of the prophets, peace be upon them, and that the human being is only accountable for those things in which there is clear responsibility. All other matters are considered permissible because of the lack of a proof indicating their impermissibility.
The transmission (sanad) goes to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) the hadith came from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace).
A tabi’i related it from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace); a companion (sahabah) is missing from the line of the transmission.
The hadith comes from so many sources that it is an absolute proof.
A hadith, that at some point in the line of transmission, has only one narrator.
Two people in a row are missing in the chain of narrators.
The narrator of the hadith is trustworthy, but no one else related the hadith.
The Dhahiriyya followed Daw’ud ad-Dhahiri’s madhhab.
Mudawwana: Imam Malik’s work of fiqh.
Reply

Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 01:13 PM
Try reading, 'The legal status of following a madhab' by Taqi Usmani. :thumbs_up
Reply

maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:18 PM
Thanks, i get it now
its just i hear people say we are hanafi or shafi followers and it confuses me
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MO783
10-29-2008, 01:20 PM
This is a very deep issue, best to look in to kitaabs etc
Reply

SixTen
10-29-2008, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
Thanks, i get it now
its just i hear people say we are hanafi or shafi followers and it confuses me
Yes, it is people following the schools, founded by, the 4 absolute mujtahids.
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Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
Thanks, i get it now
its just i hear people say we are hanafi or shafi followers and it confuses me
Yup you'll hear all sorts. Best thing is to stick to one and follow it rather than confusing yourself with the many differing opinions.

People most often than not tend to go with what their families believe.
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Yup you'll hear all sorts. Best thing is to stick to one and follow it rather than confusing yourself with the many differing opinions.

People most often than not tend to go with what their families believe.
i dont even know which one my family follow
i should ask dad
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Güven
10-29-2008, 01:25 PM
but most importantly , none of the four madhabs are superior to one another , they are all equal and all correct InshaAllah :)

:w:
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 01:29 PM
There are six madhabs. Not four.
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Güven
10-29-2008, 01:30 PM
Four ACCEPTED madhabs...
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 01:31 PM
By Sunni Muslims. Isn't sectarian bias forbidden in this forum?

There were two other Sunni madhabs which are no more. Hanbali also almost died out but was revived in the 17th century.
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
There are six madhabs. Not four.
great u just confused me even more:-\
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
By Sunni Muslims. Isn't sectarian bias forbidden in this forum?

There were two other Sunni madhabs which are no more. Hanbali also almost died out but was revived in the 17th century.
what happened to them?
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 01:35 PM
The two madhabs which are no more were Zahiri and Jariri. Zahiri is ultra-orthodox, even more so than the Hanbalis, and the Jariri was ultra-liberal, allowing women Imams to lead men in jamaat.

They died out due to their extreme views, unacceptable by most Muslims.
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Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
great u just confused me even more:-\
Sis there's no need to go into this nitty-gritty.

There are 4 madhabs insha'Allah.

You just need to do a little reading, I guess on Taqleed first and foremost and Ijtihad.
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Sis there's no need to go into this nitty-gritty.

There are 4 madhabs insha'Allah.

You just need to do a little reading, I guess on Taqleed first and foremost and Ijtihad.
inshallah will do :)
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Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Try reading, 'The legal status of following a madhab' by Taqi Usmani. :thumbs_up
http://www.cometoislam.com/fiqh/legal/main.htm
Reply

doorster
10-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by JolieFleur
Try reading, 'The legal status of following a madhab' by Taqi Usmani. :thumbs_up
jazakillah khair

http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Lega...ingAMadhab.pdf

This book is the English translation of sayyidi Mufti Mohammad Taqi Usmani’s book “Taqleed ki Sharaiee Haisiyat“.

It sheds light on the reality of following a madhab (taqleed), its different types and why it is necessary today. It also answers the doubts and objections of people on this topic.
:w:
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UmmSqueakster
10-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
Thanks, i get it now
its just i hear people say we are hanafi or shafi followers and it confuses me
Why? Following a madhab simply is putting my trust in a group of scholars who have had infinately more time and experience in examining the sources of sacred law than I have. The many of the scholars of these madhabs were hafiz of hadith, ie they had memorized over 100,000 with their chains of transmition. I don't know about you, but I don't have a dozen hadith memorized in english, let alone in arabic, let alone with their chains of transmition.

I'm a shafi'i, which means that when I want a legal opinion on something, I refer to shafi'i scholars. I know enough about their methodology and about their knowledge to trust their opinions. That's that.
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Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
BarakAllah feek wa Iyaak.

JazakAllah khayr to you also, the page you provided is easier to read than my link.

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

UmmSqueakster
10-29-2008, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by The Khan
The two madhabs which are no more were Zahiri and Jariri. Zahiri is ultra-orthodox, even more so than the Hanbalis, and the Jariri was ultra-liberal, allowing women Imams to lead men in jamaat.

They died out due to their extreme views, unacceptable by most Muslims.

Actually, the zahari madhab is making a comeback. With increased printing capabilities, the books of the madhab, mainly those of ibn Hazm, are become more widely available. I should know, I'm married to a zahari. Um yeah, it's interesting to say the least :enough!:
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maryam87
10-29-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Janaan
Why? Following a madhab simply is putting my trust in a group of scholars who have had infinately more time and experience in examining the sources of sacred law than I have. The many of the scholars of these madhabs were hafiz of hadith, ie they had memorized over 100,000 with their chains of transmition. I don't know about you, but I don't have a dozen hadith memorized in english, let alone in arabic, let alone with their chains of transmition.

I'm a shafi'i, which means that when I want a legal opinion on something, I refer to shafi'i scholars. I know enough about their methodology and about their knowledge to trust their opinions. That's that.
is it possible to take from all 4? like instead on sticking with one
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
is it possible to take from all 4? like instead on sticking with one
As a layman (i.e. unqualified), no.
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Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by maryam87
is it possible to take from all 4? like instead on sticking with one
I ditto what SixTen said. Because there are some instances where things are not clear, in that case...rather than taking fatwa's from here, there and everywhere....I find it makes more sense to look to the teachings of a particular madhab. Wallahu A'lam.

By here there and everywhere.. I dont mean to cause offence. I just mean that take it from all four schools of thought
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S_87
10-29-2008, 02:14 PM
theres nothing wrong with following a madhab but following one is not compulsory
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by amani
theres nothing wrong with following a madhab but following one is not compulsory
*for a mujtahid



^ she forgot to add that part

no mujtahid has ever changed a madhab maybe clarified - added to it, therefore every muslim by default, follows a madhab
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S_87
10-29-2008, 02:35 PM
not necessarily, for example in my town there are mostly hanafis... two different types of hanafis both have some very opposing views and both with views from imam abu hanifa. bottom line is we always refer back to the Quran and sunnah in all matters
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by amani
not necessarily, for example in my town there are mostly hanafis... two different types of hanafis both have some very opposing views and both with views from imam abu hanifa. bottom line is we always refer back to the Quran and sunnah in all matters
lol that doesnt go against what i said previously in the slightest

im well aware of the differing views within a madhab, thats why we have imaams and teachers.


DIY is worst idea
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S_87
10-29-2008, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Mz
lol that doesnt go against what i said previously in the slightest

im well aware of the differing views within a madhab, thats why we have imaams and teachers.


DIY is worst idea
yes diy isnt a good idea but not following a madhab doesnt = diy
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The Khan
10-29-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Janaan
Actually, the zahari madhab is making a comeback. With increased printing capabilities, the books of the madhab, mainly those of ibn Hazm, are become more widely available. I should know, I'm married to a zahari. Um yeah, it's interesting to say the least :enough!:
That's interesting.

The Salafi movement has a lot of Zahari ideology too.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by amani
yes diy isnt a good idea but not following a madhab doesnt = diy
oh?

either your diy or following a diy

one of those two
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S_87
10-29-2008, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Mz
oh?

either your diy or following a diy

one of those two
so long as its backed upwith the Quran and Sunnah and not this scholar said so so it must be true.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by amani
so long as its backed upwith the Quran and Sunnah and not this scholar said so so it must be true.
that wasnt that clear, are you saying that if you dotn follow a madhab but refer to the Quran and Sunnah and scholars who dont follow a madhab, that isnt DIY?
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S_87
10-29-2008, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mz
that wasnt that clear, are you saying that if you dotn follow a madhab but refer to the Quran and Sunnah and scholars who dont follow a madhab, that isnt DIY?
im saying there is nothing wrong with following a madhab so long as you dont reject everything else even when what may be 'in a madhab' is not according to the Quran and Sunnah. And that is not DIY.
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UmmSqueakster
10-29-2008, 03:00 PM
The thing is though, that oftentime there are seemingly conflicing ahadith. One can't simply flip through a book of al bukhari in english, or even arabic, find a single hadith, and say, ah the sunnah says so!

Someone posted this link earlier - http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Lega...ingAMadhab.pdf - and on page 7, there's an excellent example re: reciting behind an imam in prayer. There are several ahadith that seem to contradict each other. We rely on the scholars who are have more knowledge and experience to know all of these hadith to work and reconcile them to create a ruling for us.

Until you know the reason behind a ruling in a particular madhab, you shouldn't reject it simply because it doesn't fit the Qur'an and Sunnah in from your point of view.
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by amani
im saying there is nothing wrong with following a madhab so long as you dont reject everything else even when what may be 'in a madhab' is not according to the Quran and Sunnah. And that is not DIY.
The teachings of the madhabs are in accordance to the Qur'an and sunnah. Their may be scholars with differeing opinions but they can't consider the madhabs of any wrong - as they have been carefully formulated to adhere to the Qur'an and Sunnah.
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IceQueen~
10-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Until you know the reason behind a ruling in a particular madhab, you shouldn't reject it simply because it doesn't fit the Qur'an and Sunnah in from your point of view.
Nor can you claim its correct without having the knowledge of its background
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 03:05 PM
^ with utmost respect to you bro ....

surely the Hanafi, Hambali, Shaafi'i, Maaliki madhaahib are all the DIY of our great scholars ...?
I am not sure what you meant - but no one has been given the title of absolute mujtahid, after them.
Reply

S_87
10-29-2008, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Janaan
The thing is though, that oftentime there are seemingly conflicing ahadith. One can't simply flip through a book of al bukhari in english, or even arabic, find a single hadith, and say, ah the sunnah says so!

Someone posted this link earlier - http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Lega...ingAMadhab.pdf - and on page 7, there's an excellent example re: reciting behind an imam in prayer. There are several ahadith that seem to contradict each other. We rely on the scholars who are have more knowledge and experience to know all of these hadith to work and reconcile them to create a ruling for us.

Until you know the reason behind a ruling in a particular madhab, you shouldn't reject it simply because it doesn't fit the Qur'an and Sunnah in from your point of view.
yes definitely and i am not in any way putting down the scholars who gave their lives to studying the deen. nor am i rejecting the four imams of fiqh
i AM rejecting blindly following a ruling because its 'hanafi' or 'shafi' and there is not back up.. not from the imams themselves nor from the Quran and Sunnah..

The teachings of the madhabs are in accordance to the Qur'an and sunnah. Their may be scholars with differeing opinions but they can't consider the madhabs of any wrong - as they have been carefully formulated to adhere to the Qur'an and Sunnah.
ive said it before and ill say it again i am all for the 4 imams of fiqh.. however would u reject a pious scholar for a ruling because hes of the wrong madhab? or he does somethign that conflicts with your madhab?
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SixTen
10-29-2008, 03:07 PM
ive said it before and ill say it again i am all for the 4 imams of fiqh.. however would u reject a pious scholar for a ruling because hes of the wrong madhab? or he does somethign that conflicts with your madhab?
Someone who makes taqleed on a madhab - won't be in such a situation - as he would not be taking rulings from someone who is not of that madhab. I thought this was clear sis, if you read my first post on the thread.
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UmmSqueakster
10-29-2008, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by IceQueen~
Nor can you claim its correct without having the knowledge of its background
Unless I've dedicated considerable amount of time to the study of fiqh, who am I to disagree with the mujtahid imams?
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IceQueen~
10-29-2008, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Janaan
Unless I've dedicated considerable amount of time to the study of fiqh, who am I to disagree with the mujtahid imams?
What I mean is for eg you agree with one of them but his opinion disagrees with another- without knowledge how do choose which is right for you?
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alcurad
10-29-2008, 03:25 PM
no such thing as an absolute mujtahid exists, nor has existed, if there were such, you would have to absolutely follow him in every ruling he makes, since he would be correct in all of his rulings. the only person with that kind of authority was the prophet.
and following a particular math-hab was good in the old days, when the opinions and rulings of the other scholars could not be shared easily, not now when all of them have been written down and could be found with the utmost ease. you cannot still follow a math hab based on your family's choice or whatnot, what adheres closes to the qur'an and sunnah is what is to be followed. and not all of the mathahib are equal for all rulings either, some have much stronger evidence for a ruling than others.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-29-2008, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by amani
im saying there is nothing wrong with following a madhab so long as you dont reject everything else even when what may be 'in a madhab' is not according to the Quran and Sunnah. And that is not DIY.
madhaabs strongly endorse ikhtilaaf, its those who oppose madhabs who seem to oppose ikhtilaaf.

yes definitely and i am not in any way putting down the scholars who gave their lives to studying the deen. nor am i rejecting the four imams of fiqh
i AM rejecting blindly following a ruling because its 'hanafi' or 'shafi' and there is not back up.. not from the imams themselves nor from the Quran and Sunnah..
i set to you the task of finding me just one opinion of the schools of thought which has ZILCH backing and is authentically from the madhab. because i know from my madhab that every opinion is firmly rooted in Quran and Sunnah. Alhamdulillaah.

Therefore taking the opinion of sheikh so and so, who takes from such and such madhaab without showing the daleel (and ive seen pages of daleel for the tiniest topics) is permissable inshaAllah and not to be rebuked or reprimanded. Of course you can check out the daleel... but you wouldnt really be able to understand whats authentic and whats not, therefore you'll taqleed somethign else to grasp that matter...

:sl:

may Allah guide us ameen, plz make dua' for me ukhtee
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UmmSqueakster
10-29-2008, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by IceQueen~
What I mean is for eg you agree with one of them but his opinion disagrees with another- without knowledge how do choose which is right for you?
This is what taqleed is about - we admit that we do not have the time, resources and energy to invest in the study that is needed in order to come to our own conclusions based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. Thus, we put our trust in the mujtahid imams and in the madhabs, because we know they've had that time, experience and knowledge. If they disagree with one another, then that's ikhtilaaf, which is an acceptable disagreement.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-29-2008, 09:50 PM
:sl:

Most of the people I've come across usually tend to go to extremes in regards to this issue. There are on one side, a group of people that advise the laymen to make Ijtihad and abandon Taqleed trying to use some quotes from the four Imaams that indicate abandoning Taqleed of them and going back to the sources themselves. Those statements, in and of themselves are correct, but they're not intended for the laymen. They were intended for the students of the Imaams who maybe werent completely Mujtahid Mutlaq but were knowledgeable enough to decipher the evidences and extract jurisprudential rulings on their own and evaluate differences. In explaining this position, Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah says: “[Imam Ahmad] would order the layman to ask (yustafti) Ishaq, Abu ‘Ubaid, Abu Thawr, Abu Mus’ab, whilst he would forbid the scholars from his followers, such as Abu Dawud (the compiler of Sunan), ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id, Ibrahim al-Harbi, Abu Bakr al-Athram, Abu Zur’ah, Abu Hatim al-Sajistani, Muslim (the compiler of Sahih) and others, from making Taqleed of anyone from the scholars. He would say to them: You must refer to the sources, to the Book and the Sunnah.”

See al-Manhaj 373-376, al-Tahqiqat 643-645, Majmu’ah 20/116, 124-126, al-Mustadrak 2/241, 258, al-Furu’ 6/492, al-Insaf 11/147, I’lam 6/203-205, Mukhtasar al-Tahrir 103, Hal al-Muslim Mulzam… 14, Rawdhat al-Talibin 11/117, Usul al-Fiqh al-Islami 2/1166

So that is one extreme. The second extreme I've found amongst the people are those that make it completely mandatory (i.e. wajib) for everyone to adhere to a madhab. I understand that it is perhaps a lot better for a layman to stick to a madhab, but I have yet to see evidence that it is wajib. This is different from being la madhabi - that position is the extreme described above.

So personally, I've found the following beneficial. i) Avoiding arguments about these issues. ii) Finding a scholar that I trust, who has learned fiqh traditionally via a madhab, and asking him my questions, because to me at the end of the day, that is me fulfilling the obligations Allaah has placed upon me ('Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know'). After all, the madhab of the layman is the madhab of the scholar he refers to. I've found this to be balance between the two extremes. I might also add, this position (of following a madhab not being wajib, but asking a scholar that one trusts) is supported by many of the previous scholars such as Imam an-Nawawi, Ibn Qawan al-Shafi’i, Mulla ‘Ali al-Qari al-Hanafi, Ibn al-Humam al-Hanafi, and even some of the recent scholars such as Shaykh ‘Abdul-Fattah Abu Ghuddah (rahimullah) held this opinion.

My personal advise would be to not turn this issue into a gigantic argument, except against those that are la-madhabi ofcourse ;). Follow whichever madhab you want Insha'Allaah - there isn't a problem with that. I remember reading from a trustworthy Shaykh who studied with Shaykh Uthaymeen that once he attended a lecture of the Shaykh and in that lecture Shaykh Uthaymeen rahimullah advised and encouraged the listeners to choose and follow a madhab. Notice that this advice wasn't given to lay people like us, but actual students of knowledge - how much more important would it be for us to follow it?

Lastly, is just the issue of tolerance. A lot of us Alhamdullilah are tolerant of other madahib, but in the past and still today in places, people tend to go to extremes. The rivalry between the hanafis and the shafiees in the past is well known and one can give many examples of the type of fantacism that existed in the past. My point is basically, choose a madhab or a scholar that your trust, don't become la madhabi, follow it, but be open and tolerant to those that choose to follow a different one. :thumbs_up
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Re.TiReD
10-29-2008, 09:53 PM
^ Excellent post masha'Allah!

*been waiting ages for you to post here* :$
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Güven
10-29-2008, 10:04 PM
^lol me too , but it was worth it mashaAllah , JazakAllahu Khair !
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north_malaysian
10-30-2008, 02:21 AM
Zahiri was the official madhhab of the Andalucians right? It became extinct when the Muslims were chased away out of Spain.

In Malaysia, the official madhhab is Shafi'i. But in some rules in our religious enactments in various states some opinion from other madhhabs are used too..

About 10% of Penangite Muslims are Hanafis... thus we have Shafi'i and Hanafi mosques... but both Hanafis and Shafiis have no problems praying in each others mosques.

like Guven said, no madhhab is superior than the others....

Do u peeps realised that a great majority of Muslims living in the coastal areas and islands of the Indian Ocean (Southeast Asia, Sri Lanka, Kerala, Maldives, Yemen, Somalia, Eastern Africa) are Shafi'is... I wonder why? Maybe becoz they love eating shrimps?:-[
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