Confusing Religions

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Trying to understand what God wants from us can seem confusing, and often in conflict. On the one hand we each seek a deep and sincere faith and trust in God, and I recognise this in many of my Muslim brothers and sisters on this forum.

Beyond a doubt we are all created by the same God, and it seems strange that God should give you a deep and sincere faith through Islam and me the same through Christianity. Why would the same God do this?

As to our atheist, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh friends, they are still created by the same God, but why?

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[Keltoi]

I'm sure we all agree that what exists is because God willed it to be so. There are two ways to approach this problem:

1. We all worship the same God but in different ways, no particular faith being the one true path to salvation.

2. We all worship the same God, but only one faith is the true path to salvation.

[alcurad]

Why would the same God do this?

he is not "doing" it, we have free will, thus it is us who are doing it, not him.
and it is up to us to believe in whatever we will, and he will judge us accordingly. if we are found to have had faith in a false matter, that is not his fault, he has already sent the messengers, rather some of us choose to ignore knowingly, or blindly.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

1.We all worship the same God but in different ways, no particular faith being the one true path to salvation.

2. We all worship the same God, but only one faith is the true path to salvation.

Supposing God created us with number one as his goal, he accepts all beliefs, because they are all centred on justice to the poor, kindness and forgiveness.
And all goodness comes from God.

Supposing people in faith can only see your number two solution as being correct, and many of us do.

That might explain the conflict in this world.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God,

Eric

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[Trumble]

he is not "doing" it, we have free will, thus it is us who are doing it, not him.
and it is up to us to believe in whatever we will, and he will judge us accordingly. if we are found to have had faith in a false matter, that is not his fault, he has already sent the messengers, rather some of us choose to ignore knowingly, or blindly.

What sort of real 'choice' do you believe there to be? Sure, there are many exceptions but still for the vast majority religious beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, not some 'free choice' from a selection of equally weighted alternatives which are presented to them.

[AntiKarateKid]

We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had Allah willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to Allah and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed. Judge between them by what Allah has sent down and do not follow their whims and desires. And beware of them lest they lure you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you (The Qur’an)


Peace, Eric. Do not fall into the trap that so many theists are prey to. God has sent 1, just 1, perfect religion down. You believe it is CHristianity, I believe it is Islam. Our job is to find out who is right, not declare everyone right.

23 Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse.

God knows all and has appointed each of us a specific test. This is a long topic but to make it really short: Allah has introduced you to Islam because he knows that you would make a good believer. Take the chance or leave it. As for those who have never heard of it, Allah knows best.

[Hafswa]

he is not "doing" it, we have free will, thus it is us who are doing it, not him.
and it is up to us to believe in whatever we will, and he will judge us accordingly. if we are found to have had faith in a false matter, that is not his fault, he has already sent the messengers, rather some of us choose to ignore knowingly, or blindly.

Hi Eric,
Just as Alcurad said, we were each born with a free will and a desire to acknowledge a higher power(God) who created us and who requires us to live by His statues and Virtues.
Our will is the one thing that God or Satan cannot take over hence it is always our decision in the end. An example is how in movies you have a devil and an angel on each shoulder trying to persuade and sway your decision to suit their nature becasue thats all they can do. The decision is ours.
God only brings different situations our way so that we can
1. be tested
2. our faith can be sharpened and made stronger
3. that in our tribulation, we can come closer to him.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Beyond a doubt we are all created by the same God, and it seems strange that God should give you a deep and sincere faith through Islam and me the same through Christianity. Why would the same God do this?

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

Eric,

i have always been pleased by your mannerisms so i apologise for any offense caused by my following words.


What needs to be addressed here is what is your sincere faith upon?

We believe in Allaah and his final messenger and all he has revealed. Every word is accepted as the words of God in the Quran. The Hadith are subject to scrutiny but also have been collected and authenticated in the thousands.


I must ask, Do you believe in the Bible, in the words of Paul to the very letter?

Or is your strong faith just on God... and God alone?...


hopefully by contemplating my questioning you will realise what i am getting at...


the strong faith is indeed in the same thing... but what surrounds it can either be false... or true, that shouldnt negate our faith in whats true... for example many of the companions of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam before islaam were indeed Idol Worshippers and polytheists etc but they always had a extremely Strong believe in Allaah. Even the disbelievers claimed to believe in Allaah, a strong belief indeed because when asked they would say that Allah created the heavens and the earth. SO the strong belief was there.. the difference comes in associating partners with Allaah.

You see the Devil Believers and KNOWS God exists, yet he chose to associate partners with him and drive people away from God.

What you must contemplate is... which form of worshipping God is most pure?... most unadulterated...




Peace Dear Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

Eric

Also, it must be remembered that as Muslims, we belive that Allah has taught us the same thing in every age. Many thousands of Prophets have gone out into the world with the same message, " There is no God except God." When humans corrupted their own scriptures by adding what they pleased and changing what they didnt like, we got all these differences and conflicts between faiths.

Those other religions were all steps up till when God revealed his final and complete way of life, Islam. This religion is here to unite the other faiths and remind them of what they once knew, but have long since forgotten. La ilaha ilala. There is no God but God.

In case, I didnt make it clear by my above statements, the answer to your question about confusing religions is that God did not make other religions, humans altered his religion. It is our duty to distinguish truth from falsehood.

[August]

While I agree that we should be trying to follow the correct religion, and believe the right things, I think part of this question is about the mercy of God. I'm Catholic, and I think that that is the correct church, and Christianity the correct religion. However, I have a hard time believing that God would condemn people just for following the wrong religion, if they are sincere in their committment to God.

[AntiKarateKid]

While I agree that we should be trying to follow the correct religion, and believe the right things, I think part of this question is about the mercy of God. I'm Catholic, and I think that that is the correct church, and Christianity the correct religion. However, I have a hard time believing that God would condemn people just for following the wrong religion, if they are sincere in their committment to God.

Really? I thought since CHristians belive that you would need to be Saved by Jesus, that everyone else would go to hell? Their sins are not forgiven by the sacrifice which is the cornerstone of your religion right? I am only saying this because I thought that that was what your Church fathers ahd taught for centuries?

“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

[Grace Seeker]

What sort of real 'choice' do you believe there to be? Sure, there are many exceptions but still for the vast majority religious beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, not some 'free choice' from a selection of equally weighted alternatives which are presented to them.

How far are you willing to take these deterministic views? Sure simple observation teaches us that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, thus the person brought up by a father in the KKK is more likely to hold similar views, and a person brought up by a mother who does not even acknowledge the existence of God and lives a purely hedonistic lifestyle is not likely to become the next Pope. But I why modify your statement to refer to just religious beliefs? Isn't it true that the vast majority of all beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, everything from views about whether or not the world it flat or round to whether one wants a big or small family, even our preferences for foods, humor, and political parties. Keep pushing it and whether I choose to take the expressway or surface streets to work is no doubt a product of my conditioning through previous experiences, as is the type of job I look for, and the model of car I drive, or who I find appealing as a mate, and what clothes I choose to put on this morning. It isn't long before we have a purely deterministic view on all of life, including whether or not you even agree with this post.

I on the other hand happen to believe that people actually are empowered to make independent choices regarding what to eat and what to wear, and if things that we can easily be so conditioned regarding are areas in life where one can exercise freewill, then surely those aspects that engender such significant thought as one's religious views are open to free will as well.

[Grace Seeker]

Eric

Also, it must be remembered that as Muslims, we belive that Allah has taught us the same thing in every age. Many thousands of Prophets have gone out into the world with the same message, " There is no God except God." When humans corrupted their own scriptures by adding what they pleased and changing what they didnt like, we got all these differences and conflicts between faiths.

Those other religions were all steps up till when God revealed his final and complete way of life, Islam. This religion is here to unite the other faiths and remind them of what they once knew, but have long since forgotten. La ilaha ilala. There is no God but God.

In case, I didnt make it clear by my above statements, the answer to your question about confusing religions is that God did not make other religions, humans altered his religion. It is our duty to distinguish truth from falsehood.

And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?


For instance, since you will find that we don't in fact say "none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Christian or a Jew," (note August's statement above) is it possible that the following statement is itself in error?

“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

[AntiKarateKid]

And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?


For instance, since you will find that we don't in fact say "none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Christian or a Jew," (note August's statement above) is it possible that the following statement is itself in error?

Are you really denying that the Church used to propagate this idea of a Christian only heaven?


The Vatican says that one who truly believes in Catholic teachings and lives a life in accord with those beliefs is guaranteed a place in heaven, said Matthew Ogilvie, assistant professor of systematic theology at the University of Dallas, a Catholic school in Irving.

What about non-Catholic Christians? "Fifty years ago, if you asked your average parish priest or nun, they would have told you than non-Catholics are not going to heaven," he said.

THis was an extremely pervasive view throughout Christiandom fromwhat I have heard.

It may or may not be supported by the Bible, but the fact is, that people were told this and many many belived it. Why else would it be a topic of discussion?

[August]

Really? I thought since CHristians belive that you would need to be Saved by Jesus, that everyone else would go to hell? Their sins are not forgiven by the sacrifice which is the cornerstone of your religion right? I am only saying this because I thought that that was what your Church fathers ahd taught for centuries?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

[AntiKarateKid]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

And what of the people who knew about the gospel, rejected its teachings, and followed another religionf aithfully like Judaism or Islam

[Trumble]

How far are you willing to take these deterministic views?

Not very, in this instance. I wasn't attempting to present a position in the free will v. determinism debate, only point out that religious beliefs are usually far more dependent on the factors you describe than on any deliberate choice.

[Grace Seeker]

Not very, in this instance. I wasn't attempting to present a position in the free will v. determinism debate, only point out that religious beliefs are usually far more dependent on the factors you describe than on any deliberate choice.

OK. Gotcha.

[Grace Seeker]

Are you really denying that the Church used to propagate this idea of a Christian only heaven?

You will notice that in addition to August's quoting of the official Catholic position, that the Qur'an quotation doesn't say anything about a "Christian only" heaven. It says

And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’

Those Christians that hold to a Christian only idea of heaven would not say the above which the Qur'an says we would say because such Christians would not admit any non-Christian, including Jews. And other Christians who will admit Jews will also admit other sincere believers who are neither Christian nor Jew. So the statement as it is formed in the Qur'an is not something that you are going to find Christians saying. Either we would say, "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Christian." Or we would say, "None shall enter Paradise that God does not reach out to in love." But you will find few Christians who will say what it is that the Qur'an says we will say. Though, I suppose given the 2 billion Christians that exist in the world, you may be able to find a handful that would say that other, so I guess that makes the statement factually true, even if it is inaccurate in terms of stating overall Christian theology.

[August]

And what of the people who knew about the gospel, rejected its teachings, and followed another religionf aithfully like Judaism or Islam

It depends. If they knew that the gospel was true, and then joined another religion anyway, then they would be rejecting God, and would probably not be saved. If they understood it poorly, or were given false information about the gospel, and then joined another religion out of a sincere desire to serve God, then they probably would be saved. However, I am not God, so I can't say with certainty.

[alcurad]

that makes the statement factually true, even if it is inaccurate in terms of stating overall Christian theology.

the verse was describing the christians and the jews at the time of the prophet, most probably those nearest to him. I don't think it has nothing to do with inaccuracy.

[Woodrow]

I find this to be a very interesting thread and a very useful one.

I doubt very much we will answer any questions, probably we will raise even more. But, I do see this as a very good starting point for dialog, understanding and peaceful coexistence among us.

The one point I hope we all can see, is that in spite of our insurmountable differences, we all worship for the same reason. Love of God(swt)


Why do we try so hard to hate and persecute our neighbors who love God(swt) just as strongly as we do?

I wonder if perhaps one of our trials we face is in the manner we lead others to truth. Do we strive to be leaders, or do we desire to be conquerers?

[Hawa]

Not very, in this instance. I wasn't attempting to present a position in the free will v. determinism debate, only point out that religious beliefs are usually far more dependent on the factors you describe than on any deliberate choice.

All things considered, at some point in one's adult life, one does make a deliberate choice to prescribe to certain beliefs or non at all, doesn't that count for something?
I know it isn't really saying much considering that choice would be influenced by all the factors mentioned, still, actively following a religion (or simply professing a belief) requires a lot from an individual, much more than one who is merely following the crowd would be willing to partake in surely?

[جوري]

All things considered, at some point in one's adult life, one does make a deliberate choice to prescribe to certain beliefs or non at all, doesn't that count for something?
I know it isn't really saying much considering that choice would be influenced by all the factors mentioned, still, actively following a religion (or simply professing a belief) requires a lot from an individual, much more than one who is merely following the crowd would be willing to partake in surely?

:sl:

exactly,
especially in a religion that asks for rituals that require daily efforts-- and Allah swt has mentioned in the Quran that just keeping with 'prayers' is a great feat..
you can always secretly not pray, or fast, or give to charity or make pilgrimage.. no one is watching 24/7 ...

It is an effort in which as a reasoning, rational adult will have to make a conscious attempt to make and maintain..

Jazaki Allah khyran

:w:

[Trumble]

Possibly, Hawa. I think 'actively following' rather than belief, maybe; I don't think we can ever choose what we believe. Our religious choices depend on our beliefs, not the other way around.

I'm straying from the point I was originally trying, and probably failing, to make in relation to alcurad's post. If you assume one religion (Islam, presumably, in his case) to be 'true' and other religions to be 'false' it is surely much easier to make the 'right' choice if you are born into and brought up in the 'right' religion? Doesn't that seem a tad unfair if you happen to believe we are 'judged' according to such a choice?

[Hawa]

Possibly, Hawa. I think 'actively following' rather than belief, maybe; I don't think we can ever choose what we believe. Our religious choices depend on our beliefs, not the other way around.

I'm straying from the point I was originally trying, and probably failing, to make in relation to alcurad's post. If you assume one religion (Islam, presumably, in his case) to be 'true' and other religions to be 'false' it is surely much easier to make the 'right' choice if you are born into and brought up in the 'right' religion? Doesn't that seem a tad unfair if you happen to believe we are 'judged' according to such a choice?

Your argument sadly stands true for a lot of people who profess to follow a religion, but it's rather tenuous to assume that most if not all who do so have no choice in the matter. Likewise one can't simply assume those who follow the religion of their parents haven't arrived at that choice independently.
Religion doesn't turn human beings into sheeps...If one believes that they are to be judged on this decision (which religion to follow), then they owe it to themselves to question what they're told. With judgment looming over a persons head they wouldn't simply go with what's easier on the off chance that they might be in the right. So far from being unfair, it acts as a catalyst for personal inquiry and deduction I would say...

[August]

Religion doesn't turn human beings into sheeps...If one believes that they are to be judged on this decision (which religion to follow), then they owe it to themselves to question what they're told. With judgment looming over a persons head they wouldn't simply go with what's easier on the off chance that they might be in the right. So far from being unfair, it acts as a catalyst for personal inquiry and deduction I would say...

Sometimes true, sometimes not. If you're raised to believe that choosing a different religion leads to an eternity of suffering, you might not be willing to open-mindedly examine other faiths.

[Grace Seeker]

Possibly, Hawa. I think 'actively following' rather than belief, maybe; I don't think we can ever choose what we believe. Our religious choices depend on our beliefs, not the other way around.

I'm straying from the point I was originally trying, and probably failing, to make in relation to alcurad's post. If you assume one religion (Islam, presumably, in his case) to be 'true' and other religions to be 'false' it is surely much easier to make the 'right' choice if you are born into and brought up in the 'right' religion? Doesn't that seem a tad unfair if you happen to believe we are 'judged' according to such a choice?

Or it might be actually harder for those brought up in a particular religious environment to actually choose it rather than just sort of fall into it without thinking. Since I'm not Muslim allow me to draw a parallel from my own Christian experience.

I was raised in a Christian home. My dad made sure we went to church every Sunday. And of course the culture around me accepted such behavior as normative. So, I never really had to think about my faith, I just did it. That is until one day in high school when I was challenged to take it more seriously. That was a genuine point of decision for me. I considered as best I could with at my limited 16-year-old understanding what I knew about other faiths, and realized that I did indeed truly believe in the faith in which I had been raised. Even still the true test did not come until a couple of years later when I was in the Navy. In that new circumstance, away from home, surrounded by people who slept in every Sunday morning, rooming with people who had other faiths or no faith whatsoever, and while the military was not antagonistic toward me practicing my Christian faith, they also did nothing to make it easier for me. I would have to "actively follow" now. No longer could I just nominally follow as I had done my whole life up till that point. And in having to make that choice of actually choosing to practice my faith, rather than people just assume that I was a Christian because everyone around me was, I found that my faith become much more real to me than ever before. So, paradoxically it wasn't the Christian environment that really helped me grow as a Christian as much as the a-religious environment that did.

[suffiyan007]

God had sent many prophets approx. 25,000 prophets to bring the deen of God.
which is call Tauheed.pray to one God,one true God....when year by year....the prophets have been killed by their people or died.To Acclaim that people so love to the prophet to their deen...like buddha,thai buddha, hindu, sikh, christian and etc, has been shiRk to God....they created the statue or a sculpture of prophets or dolls of many God to pray and worship...and lotsa polytheism around the world not like Islam, and old nassara(old christian) that jesus, mohammad and jews that moses,noah and etc brings...! i becauSe the people has change the concepts of Jesus bringing christian and moses and all the prophets bringing their religion to pray to one True God(Laa ilaha ilallah)...that why people are confusing to choose the Religions...if the statue that u crafted is that really help you or the statue have broken is that your God has died....nonsense....no way....God is unseen and his unseen creation is around us...like syaitan,angel and jinn....are around us....whether we follow the syaitan or angel..is in your hands...salam!:D

[AntiKarateKid]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

Interesting, this wasnt the view of the church before.


The fate of non-Catholics, as stated prior to Vatican II: Before Vatican II, the Church consistently taught that only Roman Catholics had a chance to be saved and attain Heaven. Followers of other Christian denominations and of other religions would be automatically routed to Hell for all eternity:


Pope Innocent III (circa 1160 - 1216 CE) is considered "one of the greatest popes of the Middle Ages..." 1 At the Fourth Lateran Council (a.k.a. the General Council of Lateran, and the Great Council) he wrote: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved."


Pope Boniface VIII (1235-1303 CE) promulgated a Papal Bull in 1302 CE titled Unam Sanctam (One Holy). He wrote, in part: "Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins...In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed....Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." 2


Why the swing in opinion? Obviously the church had taught for quote a while that only CHristians go to heaven.

Graceseeker: Can you see why my statement was NOT in error now?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved

Despite what eminent people might say, they are not God, scriptures say that we will be judged in the way that we judge others. So if a Pope is saying that non Catholics will not achieve salvation, will God turn this judgement back at him?

But I wonder what things die with us when we die, and I wonder what qualities or things continue after our death?

I can imagine qualities like justice, fairness, love, mercy and forgiveness will still have meaning after death. But what happens to beliefs like Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, will any of these belief systems still have a meaning in part or in full?

I can imagine after death that we each shall not have to go around trying to convert others to our beliefs.

We are all going to answer to the same God who exceeds the sum of all the religions of the world put together. After death is God going to separate us all into groups of Christians, Muslims, Hindu, atheists and judge us each within our respective groups?

Is God really going to judge each of us because we have diverse beliefs, I do not pretend to know the answer, we can only pray?

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people, despite our differences

Eric

[August]

Why the swing in opinion? Obviously the church had taught for quote a while that only CHristians go to heaven.

It's more a change in how we understand salvation. What the RCC says now is basically that you can belong to the church without knowing it, if you would have been a Christian had you had the chance.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you August;

It's more a change in how we understand salvation. What the RCC says now is basically that you can belong to the church without knowing it, if you would have been a Christian had you had the chance

I am a Catholic and struggle with the notion that the church can change its stance, and its interpretation. Will we change again in another 5oo years time.

I wonder if God changes in the same way as we change our intrerpretations of him?

Mankind seems to gain in knowledge of many things, I wonder if we can ever understand and obey God?

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Eric's given us an interesting thread to think about.

It's always struck me as strange that one god would have placed the holiest sites of major world religions so close to each other. The best of planners? It sounds more like a recipe for disaster to me.

This quote given by AntiKarateKid seems almost to touch on this point:

We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had Allah willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to Allah and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed. Judge between them by what Allah has sent down and do not follow their whims and desires. And beware of them lest they lure you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you (The Qur’an)

Does Allah like to keep us ignorant and divided?

Peace

[Woodrow]

Back in the stone age when i was taking Sociology 101 I recall hearing that the closer beliefs were to each other, the stronger the disagreements became. The worse wars have been fought among people that were similar than among those with totaly different views.

This seems to be true with religion. The Abrahamic Faiths are so similar that to an outsider they would appear to be one religion.

Perhaps this has to do with human arrrogance and an inner view that those who are similar are corrupting what we believe. There seems to be fear that when something is similar but has differences, it is an attempt to corrupt what we believe. In some ways that is true. We see that happen with Evangelicals, Fanatics, Zealots, Zionists, etc. As a Muslim I tend to feel that Jews and Christians had lost and/or corrupted the True Teachings. I also feel that a Christian feels the same about Muslims and Jews, A Jew probably feels the same about Christians and Muslims. Naturally the 3 of us feel that the Hindus, Buddhists etc are so far off base that they can not corrupt our thinking.

It takes a Human to have the ability to twist Love of God(swt) into a war. It is like siblings fighting over which one loves his parents the most and kicking the tail of each other because they do not love their parents.

Human arrogance is a great trial we all need to overcome. Talk about the Greater Jihad, that is a Jihad we all fight in. Sadly, it seems that too many of us are loosing the battle and think we have won it.

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings,

Eric's given us an interesting thread to think about.

It's always struck me as strange that one god would have placed the holiest sites of major world religions so close to each other. The best of planners? It sounds more like a recipe for disaster to me.

This quote given by AntiKarateKid seems almost to touch on this point:



Does Allah like to keep us ignorant and divided?

Peace

CZ,

I respect you as a debater but please don't take that verse out of context like that. You sound like one of those "answering Islam" fools. I believe there are some threads on this site and many good articles on the internet addressing this deep topic.


From my limited knowledge, that verse means that God could has let humans have free will. HE could have made us all believe but instead he choose to give us the ability to reject it or accept it, and the believers would test the unbelievers and vica versa.

[MSalman]

What sort of real 'choice' do you believe there to be? Sure, there are many exceptions but still for the vast majority religious beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, not some 'free choice' from a selection of equally weighted alternatives which are presented to them.

here we go again; you do realize that when it comes to religion there're no such thing as equally weighted! but let's suppose your hypothesis is 100% correct. Now, there're two possibilities:
1 - you were raised as Buddhist
2 - you choose to be Buddhist

1 - you were raised as Buddhist

So you were raised as one but now that you're sound minded and know about other religions and maybe even learned about them. So, who's making you not to embrace another belief? God? your parents? or yourself?

2 - you choose to be Buddhist

I don't have to say much for this

just to remind you that Islamic position in regard to someone, who never heard about Islaam, is that the person will be questioned on the day of Judgement and upon his answers the final judgment will be passed. So, he's not in trouble really.

[Grace Seeker]

Interesting, this wasnt the view of the church before.


The fate of non-Catholics, as stated prior to Vatican II: Before Vatican II, the Church consistently taught that only Roman Catholics had a chance to be saved and attain Heaven. Followers of other Christian denominations and of other religions would be automatically routed to Hell for all eternity:


Pope Innocent III (circa 1160 - 1216 CE) is considered "one of the greatest popes of the Middle Ages..." 1 At the Fourth Lateran Council (a.k.a. the General Council of Lateran, and the Great Council) he wrote: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved."


Pope Boniface VIII (1235-1303 CE) promulgated a Papal Bull in 1302 CE titled Unam Sanctam (One Holy). He wrote, in part: "Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins...In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed....Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." 2


Why the swing in opinion? Obviously the church had taught for quote a while that only CHristians go to heaven.

Graceseeker: Can you see why my statement was NOT in error now?

I can see why you think it was not in error, but it is important to understand just how egotistical the Roman See is, and then you will see in this statement more arrogance than condemnation. In saying "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." what I understand the Catholic church to have been saying is that they see themselves as instrumental in anyone's salvation who is saved. They are not saying, as many have inferred, that people such as the Greek Orthodox cannot be saved since they are not Catholic, they are saying that if they are saved it is because the Catholic church exists. The same would apply to protestants that they see as being outside of the one true church, yet still saved by the work of Christ and the continued presence of the Catholic church. The same would hold for anyone else as well.

But more importantly, do you see that as regards the Quranic verse you provided eariler:

“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

Whether one accepts your interpretation of Catholic theology (wherein only Catholics are saved) or accepts my interpretation of Catholic theology (wheren in any and all who might be saved is up to God, but is possible only because of the Catholic church's existence), that in neither context would they say what the Quran claims would be said.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Woodrow;thanks for that young brother Woodrow, you come up with some profound stuff for one so young.:)

Back in the stone age when i was taking Sociology 101 I recall hearing that the closer beliefs were to each other, the stronger the disagreements became. The worse wars have been fought among people that were similar than among those with totaly different views.

Just to highlight your point, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is said to be on the site of the tomb of Christ, should be the most sacred Christian site shared by Christians of all denominations.
This causes huge problems for us, the various denominations argued so much between themselves, and we have not trusted any Christian group to hold the keys. It seems the key holder can control or appear to own the church. Rather than be fair and gracious towards each other they have given the role of key holder to a non- Christian faith group to stop the squabbling.

As a Catholic I have a great sadness that St. Peter seems to be the head of the Catholic Church in Rome. Jesus must be the centre for Christianity, and I feel sad that Christians have their main churches in Rome or Canterbury and not Jerusalem.

It seems we are to blind and foolish, and what kind of a burden must we be to God with all this arguing and fighting. We must appear just like foolish children fighting our brothers and sisters; and causing pain to the parents at the same time.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and friendship

Eric

[Woodrow]

Very good emphasis Eric. It also just reminded me of something else I once heard.

"You can not hate somebody you do not love."

Very paradoxical does not seem to be true, but it is and it is the reason hate causes so much pain.

[Argamemnon]

And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?

The source is the Qu'ran. I suggest reading it carefully from begin to end with patience and an open mind and heart. Then decide for yourself if it makes sense or not :)

[AntiKarateKid]

I can see why you think it was not in error, but it is important to understand just how egotistical the Roman See is, and then you will see in this statement more arrogance than condemnation. In saying "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." what I understand the Catholic church to have been saying is that they see themselves as instrumental in anyone's salvation who is saved. They are not saying, as many have inferred, that people such as the Greek Orthodox cannot be saved since they are not Catholic, they are saying that if they are saved it is because the Catholic church exists. The same would apply to protestants that they see as being outside of the one true church, yet still saved by the work of Christ and the continued presence of the Catholic church. The same would hold for anyone else as well.

But more importantly, do you see that as regards the Quranic verse you provided eariler:
Whether one accepts your interpretation of Catholic theology (wherein only Catholics are saved) or accepts my interpretation of Catholic theology (wheren in any and all who might be saved is up to God, but is possible only because of the Catholic church's existence), that in neither context would they say what the Quran claims would be said.

I am sorry Seeker but you're fighting a losing battle. It is impossible to deny that churches have taught that only Christians go to heaven for centuries. YOUR interpretation is a relatively new one, right alongside the new "limbo" rules. I am not stating my interpretation but rather the view than many CHristians hold, whether or not the Bible actually supports their claims. Here just try and type "only christians go to heaven in ANY search engine," ill give you a hand!


We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull, Unam Sanctum, 1302.)

I'm just scratching the tip of the iceberg here.

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

I could find more but meh... you see my point?

[Grace Seeker]

I am sorry Seeker but you're fighting a losing battle. It is impossible to deny that churches have taught that only Christians go to heaven for centuries.

I'm not saying that none have said that. If you read what I wrote I noted that indeed there are many who have said that. (I don't think that is the Roman Catholic position, but it is the position of many Christians.)

But I think you are missing something bigger. Just take a look at what yourself say the church says below:

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also [including] Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal

Now compare that statement with what the Qur'an says will be said:

Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

The Qur'an says that Christians will say that Jews can enter Paradise, but you say that is not what Christians actually say. You say that Christians say that Jews will not enter life eternal. So, which is right, you or the Qur'an?

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm not saying that none have said that. If you read what I wrote I noted that indeed there are many who have said that. (I don't think that is the Roman Catholic position, but it is the position of many Christians.)

But I think you are missing something bigger. Just take a look at what yourself say the church says below:
Now compare that statement with what the Qur'an says will be said:

The Qur'an says that Christians will say that Jews can enter Paradise, but you say that is not what Christians actually say. You say that Christians say that Jews will not enter life eternal. So, which is right, you or the Qur'an?

I'm afraid you have misinterpreted the verse and are setting up a false dichotomy. It is saying both Jews and Christians think THEY themselves are the only people going to heaven. NOT that they both are going to heaven only.

As I have shown you, many many Christians do believe that only they go to heaven, THAT is the point. As simple as that. It is quite a common belief that God addresses here.

[Argamemnon]

edit: already answered above by AntiKarateKid..

[Grace Seeker]

I'm afraid you have misinterpreted the verse and are setting up a false dichotomy. It is saying both Jews and Christians think THEY themselves are the only people going to heaven. NOT that they both are going to heaven only.

As I have shown you, many many Christians do believe that only they go to heaven, THAT is the point. As simple as that. It is quite a common belief that God addresses here.

OK. Yes, I was definitely reading it differently.

And, yes, as I have previously agreed it true that some Christians do think that NONE will be in heaven except for Christians, sometimes even just their own little clique of Christians. I hope you do recognize that such a belief is NOT a universal trait among Christians. But that doesn't change the fact that your clarification of that verse's meaning addresses everything I was challenging you with before. Thank-you for that clarification.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all, and thanks for all your replies.

This thread is starting to follow familiar arguments, we are each trying to prove which Holy Books are right. Each of us sincerely believes we are right.

But why would the same God, find it necessary to allow all these seemingly conflicting beliefs to flourish, over hundreds of years, and separate billions of people, often with wars?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you all, and thanks for all your replies.

This thread is starting to follow familiar arguments, we are each trying to prove which Holy Books are right. Each of us sincerely believes we are right.

But why would the same God, find it necessary to allow all these seemingly conflicting beliefs to flourish, over hundreds of years, and separate billions of people, often with wars?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

Perhaps you're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be why human beings feel the need to kill each other to prove which religion of peace is the right one?

[maryam87]

Perhaps you're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be why human beings feel the need to kill each other to prove which religion of peace is the right one?

I dont personally believe thats the case. People to start to kill eachother when one side opressors the other side and doesnt allow them to fully adhere to their own religious beliefs.

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?

The source is the Qu'ran. I suggest reading it carefully from begin to end with patience and an open mind and heart. Then decide for yourself if it makes sense or not :)

Some people who believe the Bible is authoritative like to quote "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17), as a way to prove their point. Somehow they miss the irony of quoting the Bible as if it were an accepted authority to prove the authority that is in question.

I find a similar sort of logic in what you suggest. I hear you suggesting that if one questions the validity of a statement in the Qur'an, that one should read the Qur'an to see if one might be pre-disposed to accepting it and then make the call.

Well, two points: (1) I have read the Qur'an. And (2) I still would like to know to what objective source does one turn when the Qur'an and the Bible disagree with one another?

[Argamemnon]

Some people who believe the Bible is authoritative like to quote "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17), as a way to prove their point. Somehow they miss the irony of quoting the Bible as if it were an accepted authority to prove the authority that is in question.

I find a similar sort of logic in what you suggest. I hear you suggesting that if one questions the validity of a statement in the Qur'an, that one should read the Qur'an to see if one might be pre-disposed to accepting it and then make the call.

Well, two points: (1) I have read the Qur'an. And (2) I still would like to know to what objective source does one turn when the Qur'an and the Bible disagree with one another?

Well, we are talking about religion here. There is no other source than the Quran or Bible. We can only evaluate them with an open mind and heart and make up our own mind, there is no alternative. Religion is not science, but that doesn't mean that it's illogical or irrational by any means..

[Keltoi]

I dont personally believe thats the case. People to start to kill eachother when one side opressors the other side and doesnt allow them to fully adhere to their own religious beliefs.

So you're suggesting there has been no religious violence? Of course there has. Many times religion has been used by leaders to justify violence and war. While it is true that the religions themselves don't sanction violence, especially in the case of Christianity, the people that practice that faith will resort to unspeakable acts of violence in the name of their faith. That is the point I was making.

[Argamemnon]

So you're suggesting there has been no religious violence? Of course there has. Many times religion has been used by leaders to justify violence and war. While it is true that the religions themselves don't sanction violence, especially in the case of Christianity, the people that practice that faith will resort to unspeakable acts of violence in the name of their faith. That is the point I was making.

I agree with you. Even though I'm Turkish, I'm against the unnecessary wars the Ottoman Empire waged, except those when we were attacked. I'm also convinced that it's against Islamic teachings. Besides, the Ottoman Empire, like other empires, used religion as an excuse to expand the empire.

[Argamemnon]

While it is true that the religions themselves don't sanction violence, especially in the case of Christianity..

What about this verse (just trying to understand the meaning)?

"Do not spare them, put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys"

1 Samuel 15:13

[Grace Seeker]

What about this verse (just trying to understand the meaning)?

"Do not spare them, put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys"

1 Samuel 15:13

Even though that verse is from the Bible, that's not the Christian message. You will find that Jesus specifically re-interpreted many parts of the law with his "You have heard it said ___________, but I say unto you _________." motiff.


The standard for Christians then is Christ, who specifically addressed those who would follow him with these words: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

[August]

Well, we are talking about religion here. There is no other source than the Quran or Bible. We can only evaluate them with an open mind and heart and make up our own mind, there is no alternative. Religion is not science, but that doesn't mean that it's illogical or irrational by any means..

I agree with this, to a point. Sure, the ultimate proof of either text comes from reflection and prayer, but I think you can look at historical evidence and other writings for some proof. For instance, if you can prove historically that the Bible was not changed, and that it agreed with other historical records, you would have pretty strong evidence of its truthfulness. You are very correct that religion should not be irrational. Of course, rationality can be in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure most people think that their religious beliefs are the most rational.

[alcurad]

a bit too simplistic perhaps, but here goes:
searching for the truth is nothing more than an excuse, an excuse for not believing in something, nothing wrong with that but no one will ever find "truth".
rather, religion is true as long as it serves a purpose. as for those whom it doesn't serve, they won't believe no matter how many "proofs" are presented.
as it is, in light of advancement in science and so on all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive, regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise.

[Argamemnon]

Even though that verse is from the Bible, that's not the Christian message. You will find that Jesus specifically re-interpreted many parts of the law with his "You have heard it said ___________, but I say unto you _________." motiff.


The standard for Christians then is Christ, who specifically addressed those who would follow him with these words: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

I think all religions are essentially peaceful, but there are always people who twist the meanings.

BTW, killing donkeys is mentioned several times in the Bible, I believe. I hope I'm not offending anyone, but does anyone actually believe these to be the words of God?

[alcurad]

^that, or the text really does call for violence, how would you know either way?

[Argamemnon]

I agree with this, to a point. Sure, the ultimate proof of either text comes from reflection and prayer, but I think you can look at historical evidence and other writings for some proof. For instance, if you can prove historically that the Bible was not changed, and that it agreed with other historical records, you would have pretty strong evidence of its truthfulness. You are very correct that religion should not be irrational. Of course, rationality can be in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure most people think that their religious beliefs are the most rational.

Yet, if religion could be proven to be truthful (leaving no doubt) would God reward us for believing in it? And would not everyone believe in the same religion in that case?

[August]

Yet, if religion could be proven to be truthful (leaving no doubt) would God reward us for believing in it? And would not everyone believe in the same religion in that case?

I don't think any religion can be conclusively proven true, but we can use some evidence. I became a Catholic because of both faith and reason. I certainly agree that faith is necessary to believe in any religion, but God does not ask us to believe blindly. On the other hand, some religions can be proven false on the basis of evidence alone. (cough.....scientology.....cough)

[Keltoi]

as it is, in light of advancement in science and so on all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive, regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise.

That is an important point. The increase in scientific knowledge isn't something to be rejected, but something to be pondered and explored. Those responsible for writing the Bible and the Qu'ran would have limited knowledge of chemical compositions, which are vital to the origins of life, for example. Fearing increased knowledge is irrational, especially if one truly has faith in their religion.

[Argamemnon]

Those responsible for writing the Bible and the Qu'ran would have limited knowledge of chemical compositions, which are vital to the origins of life, for example. Fearing increased knowledge is irrational, especially if one truly has faith in their religion.

Are you saying that God has limited knowledge of science?

[Keltoi]

Are you saying that God has limited knowledge of science?

No, but I also don't believe God writes books. However, I will reword it another way.

What is contained within the Bible or the Qu'ran does not explain areas of scientific knowledge that are vital to understanding ourselves. Such as chemical compositions and elements that make up the universe.

[alcurad]

agreed, but I didn't mean science only. socially, we have come far-for the most part- from burning witches, slavery, beating women etc, these are generally rejected nowadays but in their time they mostly were religiously sanctioned.
that might free religion from much of what is holding many from embracing it,or the opposite.
perhaps we might yet see the majority of the world following a religion or no religion at all.

[AntiKarateKid]

a bit too simplistic perhaps, but here goes:
searching for the truth is nothing more than an excuse, an excuse for not believing in something, nothing wrong with that but no one will ever find "truth".
rather, religion is true as long as it serves a purpose. as for those whom it doesn't serve, they won't believe no matter how many "proofs" are presented.
as it is, in light of advancement in science and so on all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive, regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise.

Brother, can you rephrase that for me?

When making statements such as "all religions will have to let go of much of their teachings to survive," I hope to God that you do not believe that this is relevant to Islam.

Know that on the basis of this statement alone, you do not speak for Islam. Science studies Allah's creation. Allah's chosen religion is Islam. Through science we have discovered secrets in the scripture that have increased our faith.

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion." Quran 5:3


Islam will never change, but the behavior of Muslims who follow it ebbs and flows.

[alcurad]

true, but I also said:"regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise."

[AntiKarateKid]

true, but I also said:"regardless of said teachings being truly part of the religion or otherwise."

So? I cant understand what you are getting at. The fact is that nothing will change for Islam.

[Grace Seeker]

agreed, but I didn't mean science only. socially, we have come far-for the most part- from burning witches, slavery, beating women etc, these are generally rejected nowadays but in their time they mostly were religiously sanctioned.
that might free religion from much of what is holding many from embracing it,or the opposite.
perhaps we might yet see the majority of the world following a religion or no religion at all.

I wish that were true. I am afraid that there are many who have not come so far from these acts. Have we not just recently seen beautiful and historically significant statues destroyed because some saw them as violating their understanding of God's will: Taliban-destroyed Buddhas may never be restored

In the weeks before the Taliban destroyed the giant Buddhas, they also entered the Kabul Museum wielding sledgehammers. They smashed 2,500 priceless artifacts stored there.

"It was a sad action," said museum director Omar Khan Masoudi, who has worked at the museum for almost three decades.

Asked if the Taliban had ever apologized for their actions, he smiled slightly and said, "No."

I know that such behavior is not reflective of Islam as a whole, but still there are people within both Islam and Christianity (and I suspect most religions) who see any other practice as a threat and react accordingly. Slavery is the most common human rights violation, and if found world-wide in every society, even if hidden underground. My Turkish daughter tells me that women might still be killed by their own famiilies in the eastern parts of her country if they suspect that she may have engaged in sexual relations prior to marriage (even if raped) as what they call an honor killing. At the other extreme, in the USA, there are "Christian" groups (though I hate to call them that, they are so far out on the edge) that will basically prostitute their barely turned teen-aged daughters because in their twisted view of religion it is a way help them secure salvation. And witches are still put to death in other cultures of the world specifically because of religious fears associated with them.

I suspect mot of us here think all of those acts are atrocities. But there are still acts that are accepted today that I wonder what generations of future believers will feel the same way toward with regard to our practices of restricting the role of women in the household, taking revenge on one who insults our God, considering as an attack worthy or reprisals the cariacature of a significant religious leader, relegating those who don't share our ethic to lower status in our society. These are not uncommon acts today. Indeed do a quick search on the internet and you will even find people who defend these practices as a part of their religious value system. I suspect that perhaps even among those who frequent this website there are some who would hold to some of those views if I were to discuss specific instances rather than speaking in generalities.

[جوري]

I wish that were true. I am afraid that there are many who have not come so far from these acts. Have we not just recently seen beautiful and historically significant statues destroyed because some saw them as violating their understanding of God's will: [.

ha?

'beautiful and significant' statues have a way of being the object of adoration..

sort of like Jesus a man becoming a God, with scores of christians kneeling before his statues in every church in every color.. Not sure where the religion begins and the absurdities end?!

I don't condone the destruction of monuments --but I do of effigies that folks take for worship---

I am glad they did it.. if I saw a statue of 'Jesus' on Muslim land with intent to misguide people as the christians themselves are misguided, I'd probably destroy it, as Jesus PBUH will himself do when he descends on earth!


cheers

[AntiKarateKid]

ha?

'beautiful and significant' statues have a way of being the object of adoration..

sort of like Jesus a man becoming a God, with scores of christians kneeling before his statues in every church in every color.. Not sure where the religion begins and the absurdities end?!

I don't condone the destruction of monuments --but I do of effigies that folks take for worship---

I am glad they did it.. if I saw a statue of 'Jesus' on Muslim land with intent to misguide people as the christians themselves are misguided, I'd probably destroy it, as Jesus PBUH will himself do when he descends on earth!


cheers

Perhaps there is another way to further Islam?

I agree that I would not tolerate idols which are placed to try and CONVERT Muslims.

On the other hand, if they are not shoving them in our face and are minding their own business, we are obliged to tolerate them within reason.

If we want to see idols smashed, perhaps it is better to prove to the people how futile worshipping those statues is, so that THEY THEMSELVES may destroy the statues.

[AntiKarateKid]

I wish that were true. I am afraid that there are many who have not come so far from these acts. Have we not just recently seen beautiful and historically significant statues destroyed because some saw them as violating their understanding of God's will: Taliban-destroyed Buddhas may never be restored

So tell me, would you have chastised Prophet Abraham for smashing his father's idols?

Those idols are historically misleading rather than "significant". As long as their influence is kept to a minimum, I am happy. Let those false Gods defend themselves.

[جوري]

Perhaps there is another way to further Islam?

I agree that I would not tolerate idols which are placed to try and CONVERT Muslims.

On the other hand, if they are not shoving them in our face and are minding their own business, we are obliged to tolerate them within reason.

If we want to see idols smashed, perhaps it is better to prove to the people how futile worshipping those statues is, so that THEY THEMSELVES may destroy the statues.

I am not promoting Islam to the Christians on board.. if I were, I believe I would be on a christian forum?
on that very thread that Gene was so kind to share, the actual reason for destroying effigies is expressed if you are interested in reading!...

Many Muslim countries under actual khalifate rule managed to keep statues .. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria Iraq etc etc --no?

I am not going to condemn Afghans for doing whatever they saw fit in their own land when under occupation.
Nor will I congratulate a christian on his futile effort to use what he thinks a trump card against Muslims..

I hope we are done insha'Allah?


:w:

[Follower]

GOD will judge us by the religion we follow. Muslims and Jews must follow all the laws to the letter. Christians have a gift of grace through Jesus- Christians must follow the Law, but if they stumble they have Jesus to save them.

Romans 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

John 14

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

[Argamemnon]

My Turkish daughter tells me that women might still be killed by their own famiilies in the eastern parts of her country if they suspect that she may have engaged in sexual relations prior to marriage (even if raped) as what they call an honor killing.

Turkish daughter?

[Argamemnon]

I am not going to condemn Afghans for doing whatever they saw fit in their own land when under occupation.

You may not want to condemn them, but that doesn't make it right. I prefer condemning every action that I consider wrong, whether done by Christians or Muslims (or anyone else).

[Grace Seeker]

As I said Alcurad, I wish your statement was true:

socially, we have come far-for the most part- from burning witches, slavery, beating women etc, these are generally rejected nowadays but in their time they mostly were religiously sanctioned.

But I just refer you back to some of the recent posts that have been made, and you will see why I suggest that I don't think we really have. We still give religious sanction to things that I would hope were things of the past, but they are not. But I am glad to see folks express views like Argamemnon above; he gives me hope for the future.

[جوري]

You may not want to condemn them, but that doesn't make it right. I prefer condemning every action that I consider wrong, whether done by Christians or Muslims (or anyone else).

In this case it was exactly right, spending a fortune on effigies for paganists, or on civilians? you need to define your priorities!... wish that world wide concern would spill over as Americans have desecrated the treasures of ancient Sumaria in Iraq

During the Iraqi war, the Iraqi National Museum had over 170,000 artifacts stolen. Officials recovered more than 40,000 stolen artifacts that belonged to the museum. Hundreds of these artifacts have been returned by Iraqi people to the museum. U.S. officials also are accepting the looted items without questions at the museum gates.

http://www.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e...NationalMuseum

let's start condemnation right there shall we?

[Argamemnon]

Frankly, I think a great deal of people of all religions and nationalities are hypocrites. They are quick to condemn every misdeed done by others, but ignore when their people do the same or something similar. It's a fact of life, isn't it.

As I said Alcurad, I wish your statement was true:
But I just refer you back to some of the recent posts that have been made, and you will see why I suggest that I don't think we really have. We still give religious sanction to things that I would hope were things of the past, but they are not. But I am glad to see folks express views like Argamemnon above; he gives me hope for the future.

[Argamemnon]

In this case it was exactly right, spending a fortune on effigies for paganists, or on civilians? you need to define your priorities!...

Wrong still remains wrong - if I killed someone, it wouldn't excuse another man's theft.

[alcurad]

human life is much more important than a bunch of carved stones.
grace seeker, I understand that these things still happen, rather I was pointing out that they are not generally accepted as part of the religion anymore.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Thank you all for your comments, I wonder if we can follow on from our friend Woodrows post.

Woodrow;
Back in the stone age when i was taking Sociology 101 I recall hearing that the closer beliefs were to each other, the stronger the disagreements became. The worse wars have been fought among people that were similar than among those with totaly different views

This seems to be true with religion. The Abrahamic Faiths are so similar that to an outsider they would appear to be one religion.

Perhaps this has to do with human arrrogance and an inner view that those who are similar are corrupting what we believe. There seems to be fear that when something is similar but has differences, it is an attempt to corrupt what we believe. In some ways that is true. We see that happen with Evangelicals, Fanatics, Zealots, Zionists, etc. As a Muslim I tend to feel that Jews and Christians had lost and/or corrupted the True Teachings. I also feel that a Christian feels the same about Muslims and Jews, A Jew probably feels the same about Christians and Muslims. Naturally the 3 of us feel that the Hindus, Buddhists etc are so far off base that they can not corrupt our thinking.

It takes a Human to have the ability to twist Love of God(swt) into a war. It is like siblings fighting over which one loves his parents the most and kicking the tail of each other because they do not love their parents.

Human arrogance is a great trial we all need to overcome. Talk about the Greater Jihad, that is a Jihad we all fight in. Sadly, it seems that too many of us are loosing the battle and think we have won it

God would know what is in human nature, after all he created us. I have highlighted a couple of paragraphs, and just wonder how this relates to Muslims and Christians.

How should we treat each other, should we try and convert the other, what does God want from Muslims and Christians who live as neighbours?

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Thank you all for your comments, I wonder if we can follow on from our friend Woodrows post.



God would know what is in human nature, after all he created us. I have highlighted a couple of paragraphs, and just wonder how this relates to Muslims and Christians.

How should we treat each other, should we try and convert the other, what does God want from Muslims and Christians who live as neighbours?

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship

Eric

To the Ummah,

While considering our similarities, I feel that many of my brothers and sisters here are forgetting our DIFFERENCES!

For Pete's sake brothers and sisters, Allah sent Prophet Muhammad for a REASON. That reason was to CORRECT our Christian and Jewish brethering.


Please, in all of this interfaith talk, let us not lose sight of our mission as MUSLIMS! Do the Jews or Christians say La ilaha ilala???


[Call (all mankind) unto your Lord's way with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner: for, behold, your Lord knows best as to who stray from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided] (An-Nahl 16:125).

[Keltoi]

To the Ummah,

While considering our similarities, I feel that many of my brothers and sisters here are forgetting our DIFFERENCES!

For Pete's sake brothers and sisters, Allah sent Prophet Muhammad for a REASON. That reason was to CORRECT our Christian and Jewish brethering.


Please, in all of this interfaith talk, let us not lose sight of our mission as MUSLIMS! Do the Jews or Christians say La ilaha ilala???


[Call (all mankind) unto your Lord's way with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner: for, behold, your Lord knows best as to who stray from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided] (An-Nahl 16:125).

I understand this is an element of both Christianity and Islam, but I think this was part of the issue Eric brought up. Is the relationship between Christianity and Islam all about who is right and who is wrong? Or is there a possibility of simple plain old co-existence?

[AntiKarateKid]

I understand this is an element of both Christianity and Islam, but I think this was part of the issue Eric brought up. Is the relationship between Christianity and Islam all about who is right and who is wrong? Or is there a possibility of simple plain old co-existence?

That is up to God who brought both religions into existence.


They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Quran 19:88

Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing 19:89

Whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins 19:90


Seems pretty important that we should clear up who is right and wrong...no?


Of course we can coexist peacefully. BUT that does not preclude us from DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSING the trinity.

Muslims can absolutely coexist in peace. But never expect us to acknowledge any other religion as even a vague alternative to Islam, which teaches that they are distortions.

[Grace Seeker]

Frankly, I think a great deal of people of all religions and nationalities are hypocrites. They are quick to condemn every misdeed done by others, but ignore when their people do the same or something similar. It's a fact of life, isn't it.

I agree. You will note in my original post on that topic, I cited things done all across the globe and by various religious groups, but began by focusing on my own. In general, I think we excuse ourselves way to quickly. Jesus even commented on this: "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)

[Grace Seeker]

human life is much more important than a bunch of carved stones.
grace seeker, I understand that these things still happen, rather I was pointing out that they are not generally accepted as part of the religion anymore.

Yes, I understand what you were saying. But what I was trying to point out is that even people who don't do such things seem to be willing to defend those who do. Hence my view that religion is still used to excuse things that for me are the equivelant of burning witches.

[Grace Seeker]

I understand this is an element of both Christianity and Islam, but I think this was part of the issue Eric brought up. Is the relationship between Christianity and Islam all about who is right and who is wrong? Or is there a possibility of simple plain old co-existence?

That is up to God who brought both religions into existence.

Why is it up to God? Does not God/Allah command us to live at peace with each other? Does that not make it up to us to either keep his command or reject it and go our own way?

Seems pretty important that we should clear up who is right and wrong...no?

Sure, but we clear it up with conversation and debate, not hostility.

Of course we can coexist peacefully. BUT that does not preclude us from DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSING the trinity.

Muslims can absolutely coexist in peace. But never expect us to acknowledge any other religion as even a vague alternative to Islam, which teaches that they are distortions.

Of course not. Nor will I ever do less than to confess Jesus to be both "my Lord and my God." But I don't see how your lack of making that confession, nor your repudiation of the Trinity as a justifiable reason for me to attack you. Nor would I hope you see my proclaimation of my faith and lack of acknowledging Muhammad as THE prophet of Allah to be justification for attacking me.

Co-existence means giving the other room to actively live out their faith.


Nor should we stand idly by when others falsely turn to faith as ways to convince others that their own political agendas of explotation, imperilism, colonialism, or terrorism are justified.

[AntiKarateKid]

Why is it up to God? Does not God/Allah command us to live at peace with each other? Does that not make it up to us to either keep his command or reject it and go our own way?


Sure, but we clear it up with conversation and debate, not hostility.

Of course not. Nor will I ever do less than to confess Jesus to be both "my Lord and my God." But I don't see how your lack of making that confession, nor your repudiation of the Trinity as a justifiable reason for me to attack you. Nor would I hope you see my proclaimation of my faith and lack of acknowledging Muhammad as THE prophet of Allah to be justification for attacking me.

Co-existence means giving the other room to actively live out their faith.


Nor should we stand idly by when others falsely turn to faith as ways to convince others that their own political agendas of explotation, imperilism, colonialism, or terrorism are justified.

To clarify, the bulk of my post was not addressing any inability to live in peace but rather the "does it matter who is right or wrong" part.

[Woodrow]

To the Ummah,

While considering our similarities, I feel that many of my brothers and sisters here are forgetting our DIFFERENCES!

Our differences are very important. Yet, at the same time we need to keep in mind that our differences should be shared as an act of love and not flaunted as indignant self righteousness.

For Pete's sake brothers and sisters, Allah sent Prophet Muhammad for a REASON. That reason was to CORRECT our Christian and Jewish brethering.

True. This also places a tremendous burden upon us, to CORRECT, not to mistreat or to belittle.

Please, in all of this interfaith talk, let us not lose sight of our mission as MUSLIMS! Do the Jews or Christians say La ilaha ilala???

I do not know about the Jews, but most Christians recite the Apostles creed which begins with "I believe in one God......" No Christians do not recite the Shahadah as we do, but I think most sincerly believe they say things that carry similar meaning. This is a difficult area for us to educate Non-Muslims in. It often leads to anger and animosity. It is difficult for us to keep a cool head and not become angered when we see what we believe is a misuse of our belief or a blatant refusal to see the error.

This is a two way street, Christians also feel we are doing the same to their beliefs and understanding. We need to keep in mind when we are teaching, correcting, that failure to understand does not indicate hatred.

[Call (all mankind) unto your Lord's way with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner: for, behold, your Lord knows best as to who stray from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided] (An-Nahl 16:125).

Very true and let us always keep in mind:
"and argue with them in the most kindly manner"

When an argument becomes embittered with anger, it is no longer arguing, it becomes a fight and it will be a fight with only losers.

Argue, debate and teach but we must do it with kindness and not out of personal desire to prove somebody is wrong.

Remember, to prove somebody is wrong, is not proof we are right.

I think sometimes we loose track that it is our burden to prove we are correct, if we are to correct another's errors. We have no need to prove another person is wrong, that falls into place and becomes an accepted fact, when we prove ourselves right. Too often we waste too much time and create barriers by mistakenly thinking , if we prove somebody is wrong, it is proof we are correct

As an analogy:

Man A believes 5+5=6 Man B believes 5+5=7. Man A proves to man B that 5+5 does not equal 7 and walks away believing he is correct and 5+5=6

Man C comes along and proves 5+5=10. His argument is finished, he does not have to prove Man A and Man B are wrong. The important thing is he is able to show he is correct and it is up to A and B to decide what to do with the truth.

The burden of proof is upon us to prove we are correct, not to prove somebody is wrong.

[AntiKarateKid]

Very true bro Woodrow.

Proving myself true instead of proving them incorrect huh....

What the heck, I give it a shot! :p

[Woodrow]

I think if all of us concentrated on shwowing and living what we believe to be true, it would end the battles brought about by trying to prove the other guy is false.

To me it makes no difference if Christianity, Judaism, Hinuism, Taoism etc are true or false. I am Muslim simply because I found Islam to be true, not because anything else is false.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think if all of us concentrated on shwowing and living what we believe to be true, it would end the battles brought about by trying to prove the other guy is false.

To me it makes no difference if Christianity, Judaism, Hinuism, Taoism etc are true or false. I am Muslim simply because I found Islam to be true, not because anything else is false.

I agree with your first paragraph but must disagree with your second. Yes, our Ummah is an example to every other nation in the world. Nothing comes close to our ethics, prayer, and unity. If we displayed the characteristics of the Prophet pbuh more often, things would be so much better for Muslim and non- Muslim alike.

Religion is more than just a choice of " whatever fits you". If peoples' choice was subjective like that, we wouldnt be punished for choosing the wrong one.

It is extremely important that we find the TRUTH. It is the only way we will be able to truly please Allah and bring justice to this world. What would happen if choice of religion became as subjective and personal as choosing a favorite movie???

We thank Allah that as Muslims, we have THE truth.

[doorster]

....

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Woodrow my friend;

Man A believes 5+5=6 Man B believes 5+5=7. Man A proves to man B that 5+5 does not equal 7 and walks away believing he is correct and 5+5=6

Man C comes along and proves 5+5=10. His argument is finished, he does not have to prove Man A and Man B are wrong. The important thing is he is able to show he is correct and it is up to A and B to decide what to do with the truth.

God may have given us that mathematical simplicity to make our religions add up to ten in our own eyes, but we are not able to show others that proof. God has left us with a real dilemma, Christianity’s 5+5 appears to add up to 6, 7, 8 or 9, or any number apart from ten, amongst all the denominations and to non Christians. Similarly with Islam 5+5 appears to add up to any number apart from ten to outsiders.

When our religion adds up to ten in our own eyes it is a validation from God that he exists for me in this way. The validation comes at a price, because we have instructions to do things, to change ourselves, to struggle against temptations.

I am a Catholic and it gives me a greater joy to work and share in the community with Christians of other denominations than it does to work with other Catholics. I would find it a greater joy still to share and work with non-Christians, but sadly there are no places of worship in my neighbourhood.

Our friend glo on this forum has recently said that her Christian community is starting to build friendships with the local mosque. I find this a great inspiration when people of seemingly opposing beliefs make an effort to get to know each other openly.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[جوري]

Wrong still remains wrong - if I killed someone, it wouldn't excuse another man's theft.

:sl:

You should compare things that share some semblance, if you wish to loan your statement some credence? We are not comparing murder to theft.. we are comparing destruction of thousands of year old structures of ancient Iraq to the destruction of a quasi modern day statue of a worshiped effigy.

Again putting things into perspective will allow you to define your priorities better... except in this case Americans did it to loot priceless historical pieces, while in the afghans case, they did it to define that the deprivation of their citizens from basic human rights is far more important than leading folks astray through the restoration of a Buddha belly!

:w:

[Khalil_Allah]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

I love Catholicism. I used to think that Catholics were crazy, seeing the history of the Vatican. But you know, the more I learn about Catholics, the more similar I think we are.


We all have different paths to God. My grandmother is one of the most pious people I know. If I try to compete with her in doing good works, then I will lose because her entire day is devoted to helping others. But you know, she has no context for being a Muslim. She is acting just like a good Muslim, but if you ask her, then you would hear her say that Jesus died for her sins and she prays to him and worships him. We think that this is not good to do, but it is how she was taught and how she practices her faith in God.

He guides whoever He wishes on whatever terms He wishes. A Muslim cannot expect that everyone who turns to God will see Him as He is described in Islamic texts. Rather people see God according to their own experiences. I learned about several religions and took the time to consider God in each context, eventually accepting Islam as the accurate account of God. But my grandmother was raised in the church, has been in the church for probably 60 years, and will die serving the Lord as she understands from the church. But you know I am no closer to God than she is, even if I think the Islamic perspective is correct.

[Grace Seeker]

:sl:
Likewise,I try to avoid initiating an insult against other religions lest they retaliate by insulting Allah, Quraan and Prophets. on the other hand if they were to quote a distortion of my faith, I see no choice but show them the mirror by pointing out absurdities of their own position

That is an excellent practice. For myself, when someone makes a comment about Christianity that I feel is a distortion of my faith, even more than wanting to show them a mirror that points out similiar absurdities in theirs, I want to try to correct that distortion with the truth as I understand it. (Not that I always put my will into the practice I intend.)

He guides whoever He wishes on whatever terms He wishes. A Muslim cannot expect that everyone who turns to God will see Him as He is described in Islamic texts. Rather people see God according to their own experiences.

Very insightful.

[AntiKarateKid]

I love Catholicism. I used to think that Catholics were crazy, seeing the history of the Vatican. But you know, the more I learn about Catholics, the more similar I think we are.


We all have different paths to God. My grandmother is one of the most pious people I know. If I try to compete with her in doing good works, then I will lose because her entire day is devoted to helping others. But you know, she has no context for being a Muslim. She is acting just like a good Muslim, but if you ask her, then you would hear her say that Jesus died for her sins and she prays to him and worships him. We think that this is not good to do, but it is how she was taught and how she practices her faith in God.

He guides whoever He wishes on whatever terms He wishes. A Muslim cannot expect that everyone who turns to God will see Him as He is described in Islamic texts. Rather people see God according to their own experiences. I learned about several religions and took the time to consider God in each context, eventually accepting Islam as the accurate account of God. But my grandmother was raised in the church, has been in the church for probably 60 years, and will die serving the Lord as she understands from the church. But you know I am no closer to God than she is, even if I think the Islamic perspective is correct.

Again, it is great that your grandmother is so pious but your comments are not representative of Islamic theology.

I think Muslims need to be reminded waht it means to be a Muslim.


Tell me Khalil, if there are so many different ways to Allah, why does Allah say this:

"He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. God suffices as a witness." 48:24

The fact that your grandmother is, in your own words, more "pious" than you, that is because Allah chose to grant her a good FITRAH. If she were Muslim, her fitrah would be EVEN more refined and perfectly directed towards Allah.

BTW Catholocism, with the pope, clergy, idols, etc is probably the FARTHEST Christian sect from Islam.


WHy is so hard to grasp that Islam's truth isn't PERSONAL, it is UNIVERSAL!
God is God, and no distorted personal experience changes that. He is not some figment of your imagination to tailor to your WHIMS!

Disagree with me? Go ahead bring up your Islamic proofs and I will bring mine.

[Khalil_Allah]

I wish that you would be more calm about this because you are conveying a lot of energy through your keyboard, akhi.

I am not saying that I believe that Christianity is true in its own way and Islam is true in its own way.

I believe that Rasulullah saws taught us the truth about Allah swt and the nature of the world. The message of the Prophet saws is the truth and this belief is what makes me Muslim and my grandmother's non-belief in this is what makes her not a Muslim.

Islam prevails over the other religions and will continue to do so in the future both in committed followers and in population alone. It seems clear that there are more of us striving to pass on our religion to our children and practicing in front of them. This is how I interpret 48:24. It does not mean that it is our duty as Muslims to make sure that Islam is prevailing over other religions in the sense that I should be trying to convert my pious grandmother and tell her that her beliefs are wrong. Of course I think that she would find greater happiness if she reverted because she would be aligning her beliefs with the TRUTH akhi. I commend her because her life looks like Siratal-mustaqim; it is filled with good works. Of course it is not because she doesn't pray like we do and she doesn't confess shahada.

Comparatively, who is better? The one who confesses shahada and then goes on to commit sins and not pray and these things or the one who does not but commits the life to good works and the worship of God in her best understanding? Only Allah knows...


I'm getting angry with you right now akhi, so I have to pause for a moment.

And with respect to the Catholics, they are not the farthest from Islam. They are the ones who believe in the rewards of good works. Among the Catholics I know are the only christians I have met who seek repentance for their sins. They are the ones who do not just move from sin to sin and saying "well, jesus died for forgiveness of my sins." (although I do not hold that all protestants do this, this attitude seems to prevail)


So akhi, why don't you remind us all what it means to be muslim? Why don't you go find your Islamic proofs in spite of my beliefs, or better for the sake of Allah, and come show us all how to be Muslim. I'm just a revert man, what the hell do I know? estaghfirallah, I'm sorry for my anger, but if I perceive your attitude correctly, then I think that you would benefit from changing the way you think.

Give them the benefit of the doubt and love them because they are striving in the path of Allah whether they know it or not.

[AntiKarateKid]

I wish that you would be more calm about this because you are conveying a lot of energy through your keyboard, akhi.

I am not saying that I believe that Christianity is true in its own way and Islam is true in its own way.

I believe that Rasulullah saws taught us the truth about Allah swt and the nature of the world. The message of the Prophet saws is the truth and this belief is what makes me Muslim and my grandmother's non-belief in this is what makes her not a Muslim.

Islam prevails over the other religions and will continue to do so in the future both in committed followers and in population alone. It seems clear that there are more of us striving to pass on our religion to our children and practicing in front of them. This is how I interpret 48:24. It does not mean that it is our duty as Muslims to make sure that Islam is prevailing over other religions in the sense that I should be trying to convert my pious grandmother and tell her that her beliefs are wrong. Of course I think that she would find greater happiness if she reverted because she would be aligning her beliefs with the TRUTH akhi. I commend her because her life looks like Siratal-mustaqim; it is filled with good works. Of course it is not because she doesn't pray like we do and she doesn't confess shahada.

Comparatively, who is better? The one who confesses shahada and then goes on to commit sins and not pray and these things or the one who does not but commits the life to good works and the worship of God in her best understanding? Only Allah knows...


I'm getting angry with you right now akhi, so I have to pause for a moment.

And with respect to the Catholics, they are not the farthest from Islam. They are the ones who believe in the rewards of good works. Among the Catholics I know are the only christians I have met who seek repentance for their sins. They are the ones who do not just move from sin to sin and saying "well, jesus died for forgiveness of my sins." (although I do not hold that all protestants do this, this attitude seems to prevail)


So akhi, why don't you remind us all what it means to be muslim? Why don't you go find your Islamic proofs in spite of my beliefs, or better for the sake of Allah, and come show us all how to be Muslim. I'm just a revert man, what the hell do I know? estaghfirallah, I'm sorry for my anger, but if I perceive your attitude correctly, then I think that you would benefit from changing the way you think.

Give them the benefit of the doubt and love them because they are striving in the path of Allah whether they know it or not.

Hi Khalil,

I had to laugh at the keyboard comment, I didn't mean it to come out like that. LOL.

Anywhoo, alot of times when someone says "we all have different paths to God" they usually follow up with some pluralist ( AKA all religions are equally OK) nonsense.

Thanks for the clarification on your view. I feel that too many people fall into a false pluralist mindset when taking part in interfaith discussions.

I disagree with your Catholicism comments though. Saying " THe catholics I know act more pious than the protestants I know" is.... not the right way to go about these sorts of discussions. THe catholic doctrine is further from Islam than the Protestant one ( catholics have their pope, rituals, cult of saints etc).

My statement about what it means to be Muslim, admittedly, overstepped the boundary and I apologize, I am not well versed in Islam. Other than this, I fail to see why you are getting angry. I merely said she would be even more pious with Islam. I do not expect everyone to see God the same way as in Islam, but that does NOT mean that their action are acceptable. But, like you said, if she is doing good, then she may still be granted heaven. Allah knows best.

Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Day of Judgment, and perform righteous deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve (Quran 2:62, 5:69).

[Khalil_Allah]

brother this was very gracious of you to respond so smoothly when I was snapping back like a madman.

Please forgive me for losing my patience, I think we just misunderstood each other, you know? But you are a good man, AKK.

[AntiKarateKid]

brother this was very gracious of you to respond so smoothly when I was snapping back like a madman.

Please forgive me for losing my patience, I think we just misunderstood each other, you know? But you are a good man, AKK.

Meh I lost my patience first when I didnt read your post carefully. I beat u too it!:D

More on topic though, perhaps through interfaith understanding we could eliminate much of the hostile barriers between religions and make the truth more clear.

Whos a better Muslim, the one who knows why he isnt a Jew or Christian or Hindu, or the one who doesnt?

Whos more likely to convert, the person who knows what the Quran and Prophet Muhammad pbuh really stands for or the one who STILL thinks "Moslems" want to kill everyone and worship a moon god?

[Khalil_Allah]

And brother, in good spirits now, I shall defend the catholics again! Call me Khalil, defender of the catholics!

They ARE more like us! Standardized ritual prayers? Repent for ALL of your sins, young catholic children are told! They have better religious education systems. Their priests are generally well-educated like our imams.

that's all i got right now :)

lol stay away from the moon god

[AntiKarateKid]

And brother, in good spirits now, I shall defend the catholics again! Call me Khalil, defender of the catholics!

They ARE more like us! Standardized ritual prayers? Repent for ALL of your sins, young catholic children are told! They have better religious education systems. Their priests are generally well-educated like our imams.

that's all i got right now :)

lol stay away from the moon god

Well well defender... we meet again.

The protestants criticise the cathlolics of worshipping amry and the saints because of their excessive devotions to them. Also, the protestants dont acknowledge a pope too. This seems closer to No God but God

Thats all i got for now.... darn organic chemistry test.

[Follower]

Catholics and Protestants hold the same basic beliefs with different ways of celebrating them.

I don't see Muslims as being in unity. Quran only nineteen people shia, sunni, ******, etc.

LOL!! Protestant pope= Billy Graham just joking but he is a great preacher!!

Performing rituals and certain numbers of prayers does not neccessarily prove what is in your heart.

[جوري]

great analogy 'follower'
90% of Muslims are sunna can you say that about any sect of christianity?.. how is that for unity.. shiite use the same Quran that sunnis do though interpret it differently.. do catholics use the same book you use?
the rest of the 2% aren't recognized as Muslims, even if they wish to bestow that label upon themselves...

you are right, performing rituals doesn't tell what is in the heart.. I have never found much heart in a bunch of hallaballoos clapping and singing to the organ.. I am not sure where God or Jesus is in all that hooliganism, candles and stain glass --but whatever rocks your world--

if you really want to take that route, I don't think you'll come out a winner!

cheers

[Khalil_Allah]

skye you crack me up.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Khalil_Allah; I find your replies very encouraging and helpful.

We all have different paths to God. My grandmother is one of the most pious people I know. If I try to compete with her in doing good works, then I will lose

You do not loose to your grandmother, neither of you looses, and most importantly doing good works is the one that wins.

Can it be possible for Muslims and Christians to not so much compete in doing good deeds, but share good works together?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship,

Eric

[doorster]

Can it be possible for Muslims and Christians to not so much compete in doing good deeds, but share good works together?

perhaps then apathy will set in?

5:48"And We have sent down to you the Book (Quran) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it , and guarding it In safety: . So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ."

http://islamawakened.com/Quran/5/48/

[Khalil_Allah]

perhaps then apathy will set in?

Holla!

[Follower]

Here is what Jesus says on the matter:

Matthew 6
Giving to the Needy
1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

[Follower]

Maybe the problem of unity in Islam is following hadith, which are true which are false. I know that all Muslims have diagreement on which ones to follow. Actually why follow any? They are not the word of GOD!! They are history.

All Christians follow the same basic Books of the Holy Bible.

[doorster]

Maybe the problem of unity in Islam is following hadith, which are true which are false. I know that all Muslims have diagreement on which ones to follow. Actually why follow any? They are not the word of GOD!! They are history.

All Christians follow the same basic Books of the Holy Bible.

there is a difference between "comparing" your religion with ours and tutoring us on what to or not to follow.

Stop preaching before I say something which will cause some of staff to "punish" [hassle] me

[جوري]

Maybe the problem of unity in Islam is following hadith, which are true which are false. I know that all Muslims have diagreement on which ones to follow. Actually why follow any? They are not the word of GOD!! They are history.

All Christians follow the same basic Books of the Holy Bible.

You are so ignorant, shouldn't you educate yourself on Islam before engaging with Muslims on an Islamic forum?

why do you post random quotes from 'whicever' bible?-- I mean what is the point? do you know how to engage in a topic.. or it is about random quotes? then pls let me join in and share a few from the Quran-- a few on charity


:254] O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the provisions we have given to you, before a day comes where there is no trade, no nepotism, and no intercession. The disbelievers are the unjust.

[2:262] Those who spend their money in the cause of GOD, then do not follow their charity with insult or harm, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:263] Kind words and compassion are better than a charity that is followed by insult. GOD is Rich, Clement.

[2:267] O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the good things you earn, and from what we have produced for you from the earth. Do not pick out the bad therein to give away, when you yourselves do not accept it unless your eyes are closed. You should know that Allah is Rich, Praiseworthy.

[2:270] Any charity you give, or a charitable pledge you fulfill, GOD is fully aware thereof. As for the wicked, they will have no helpers.

[2:272] You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided). Any charity you give is for your own good. Any charity you give shall be for the sake of GOD. Any charity you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.

[2:273] Charity shall go to the poor who are suffering in the cause of GOD, and cannot emigrate. The unaware may think that they are rich, due to their dignity. But you can recognize them by certain signs; they never beg from the people persistently. Whatever charity you give, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[2:274] Those who give to charity night and day, secretly and publicly, receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:277] Those who believe and lead a righteous life, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), they receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:280] If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew.

[3:92] You cannot attain righteousness until you give to charity from the possessions you love. Whatever you give to charity, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[3:134] who give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable.

[4:38] They give money to charity only to show off, while disbelieving in GOD and the Last Day. If one's companion is the devil, that is the worst companion.

[4:77] Have you noted those who were told, "You do not have to fight; all you need to do is observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)," then, when fighting was decreed for them, they feared the people as much as they feared GOD, or even more? They said, "Our Lord, why did You force this fighting on us? If only You respite us for awhile!" Say, "The materials of this world are nil, while the Hereafter is far better for the righteous, and you never suffer the slightest injustice."


[Pickthal 2:177] It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing


______________

now, if the bible is the 'word of God' how come you have a thousands of versions and millions of sects?
further your christian counterparts on the forum, highly disagree that your bible (whichever) version is the absolute word of God..
the hilarity of your use of 'history' there is no recorded history of a man/god named Jesus even existing outside of your bible(s) which isn't very credible, given the deplorable state Christianity finds itself in --

in closure, you should go join in on the fun and do some xmas shopping to celebrate the birth of your God while boosting your very ailing economy charging money you don't have on credit cards instead of arguing your nonsense in show of unity and to loan the 'birth of God' some credence-- on the account all your rituals from hand clapping to organ playing are nonsensical...
indeed you are a 'follower' for if you had a functioning brain cell -- you'd work on the gross errors that are at the very crux of your religion before venturing on a debate with another!

[جوري]

I thought this was really nice to show the 'unity of Christianity' and I have already listed numerous versions of the bibles here for those interested-- (I am sure they are all correct)

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Cul...ons_and_Sects/

African Methodist Episcopal (1)
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Anglican Catholic Church@
Anglican Church (133)
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Associated Gospel Churches of Canada@
Association of Vineyard Churches (5)
Baptist (147)
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[Woodrow]

I agree with your first paragraph but must disagree with your second. Yes, our Ummah is an example to every other nation in the world. Nothing comes close to our ethics, prayer, and unity. If we displayed the characteristics of the Prophet pbuh more often, things would be so much better for Muslim and non- Muslim alike.

Religion is more than just a choice of " whatever fits you". If peoples' choice was subjective like that, we wouldnt be punished for choosing the wrong one.

That is true. The closest analogy I can make is one is eating poison and the other is eating healthy food. All any of us can do is show the benefits of a healthy diet and let them decide if the diet they choose is healthy. We can not force people to eat what we believe is healthy.

It is extremely important that we find the TRUTH. It is the only way we will be able to truly please Allah and bring justice to this world. What would happen if choice of religion became as subjective and personal as choosing a favorite movie???

Two different topics. The importance of our religious beliefs results in our choice for eternity. But, we must remember the key is in education, not in hatred of neighbors.

We thank Allah that as Muslims, we have THE truth.

Ameen

[Grace Seeker]

I thought this was really nice to show the 'unity of Christianity' and I have already listed numerous versions of the bibles here for those interested-- (I am sure they are all correct)

Your list of "numerous" versions continues not to be different versions, but different translations, just like there are Yusufali, Picthal and Shakir translations of the Qur'an. That list of course goes on and on as well. Does that mean that there are "numerous versiions" of the Qur'an. No, there is only one Qur'an. There is only one Bible as well, but since we don't insist that people must read it in the original tongue, we feel very comfortable in reading it from any of the numerous translations you often post and know that it is still the same* Bible.

* -- I will admit that there is disagreement between various Christian groups as to whether or not the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees should or should not be considered part of the canon. But then there is disagreement between Muslims regarding which Hadith are or are not authentic. Since the Hadith are considered sufficient as a guide to faith and practice (the very definition of what it means if a book is in the biblical canon), it seems both Muslims and Christians are left to ponder why they can't agree amongst themselves as to what does and does not belong in their respective sacred texts.



As for the list of groups you published which you listed as Christian, your definition of Christian is different than mine, for I would not include the following that you listed:

Branch Davidian
Christadelphian
Christian Identity
Christian Science
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Church of the New Jerusalem
Church Universal and Triumphant
Family, The (aka Children of God)
Gnostic
Jehovah's Witnesses
Living Church of God
Local Church
Nation of Yahweh
Rosicrucian
Spiritist
True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
Two-by-Twos
Unification Church
Unitarian-Universalism
Unity Church
Unity Fellowship Church
Waldensian Church
Way International, The
Worldwide Church of God


These above are groups that are actually antithetical to Christianity -- declaring that Jesus is not the Christ (hard to be a Christian if you don't accept the Christ), say that Jesus is nothing more than a special enjoy from God, are accepting of all religions as equal, using other revelation subsequent to the Bible as authoritative, deny the value of Jesus sacrifice or the reality of his resurrection, and in other ways seperate themselves off from historic Christianity. Some of them think that it doesn't matter what you believe -- hardly a Christian concept. And others think that they are the only one's who are right and thus deny that anyone else other than them could be Christian -- obviously thereby isolating themselves from the predominant Christian culture as not a part of it. And therefore, given those views and those practices, I do not include them as a part of the mix of denominations and churches (which is a large number) that are Christian.


As for the remaining list, of literally hundreds of Christian bodies from large denominations like the Catholic Church right down to individual community churches, I submit to you that we are one body in Christ just the same as the Ummah views itself as a single community. This is what we mean when even groups like Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans and other proclaim "we believe in the holy catholic church". We don't mean Catholic as in the church led by the pope; we are using the term "catholic" in its other sense, meaning universal. We believe that there is one universal church to which all Christians belong, no matter what the name above the door where they happen to worship reads. And this universal Church is composed of many different groups (some you listed and some you didn't) who don't all agree with each other about sources of authority in Christian lives today any more than Sunni and Shia agree about such authorities. Many of these groups have other unique beliefs that are not shared by all other Christians. But the membership of them all (or at least their official teachings) do share a oneness in their understanding of the person and work of Jesus. And that makes us one body in Christ, a universal church, just as unified as the Ummah that I find present here.

(Note: Not being a member of both the Umman and the Church, I can't say for sure that one community is more or less or exactly the same in their "oneness" or "universality" than the other. I'm making my assessment based on what I know of the Church from having been in it for more than half a century, and from the little bit of the Ummah I have experienced in 2 years of being on LI and a little less than a decade of regular intermingling with members of the Ummah in my daily life.)

[جوري]

the content of your many bibles differs, I have in fact quoted various paragraphs where it says one thing in one version and another in a different version.. that isn't lost in the translation that is tampered with text.. tampered with text ISN'T the word of God.. the least God can do with text with which he wishes to guide millions is to at least avow to sustain it.. such was accomplished indeed with the Quran... I don't wish to go find old threads to show that again, a mere google can do so, I don't have a strong interest in comparative when there is nothing to compare -- but I do have a strong distaste for bible thumpers who don't even know the content of their own text to take on someone else's

as for which sects you deem heretical or devout, well it doesn't concern me either.. It was aimed at the fellow who seems to see christian unity and textual unity where none in fact exists!


peace

[Khalil_Allah]

is everyone showin' some love in here? EEP!

[AntiKarateKid]

is everyone showin' some love in here? EEP!

Absolutely brother. I have lost my temper too many times on a few thread such as this.

Let the Muslims here take a step back for a second and look to the Quran.

Call people to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and best advice, and reason with them, if you have to, in the most courteous manner: for your Lord knows best who strays from His Way and He knows best who is rightly guided.

Now, with this guide, lets continue to reason with our cousins on this board!:statisfie

[AntiKarateKid]

Your list of "numerous" versions continues not to be different versions, but different translations, just like there are Yusufali, Picthal and Shakir translations of the Qur'an. That list of course goes on and on as well. Does that mean that there are "numerous versiions" of the Qur'an. No, there is only one Qur'an. There is only one Bible as well, but since we don't insist that people must read it in the original tongue, we feel very comfortable in reading it from any of the numerous translations you often post and know that it is still the same* Bible.

* -- I will admit that there is disagreement between various Christian groups as to whether or not the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees should or should not be considered part of the canon. But then there is disagreement between Muslims regarding which Hadith are or are not authentic. Since the Hadith are considered sufficient as a guide to faith and practice (the very definition of what it means if a book is in the biblical canon), it seems both Muslims and Christians are left to ponder why they can't agree amongst themselves as to what does and does not belong in their respective sacred texts.



As for the list of groups you published which you listed as Christian, your definition of Christian is different than mine, for I would not include the following that you listed:

Branch Davidian
Christadelphian
Christian Identity
Christian Science
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Church of the New Jerusalem
Church Universal and Triumphant
Family, The (aka Children of God)
Gnostic
Jehovah's Witnesses
Living Church of God
Local Church
Nation of Yahweh
Rosicrucian
Spiritist
True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
Two-by-Twos
Unification Church
Unitarian-Universalism
Unity Church
Unity Fellowship Church
Waldensian Church
Way International, The
Worldwide Church of God


These above are groups that are actually antithetical to Christianity -- declaring that Jesus is not the Christ (hard to be a Christian if you don't accept the Christ), say that Jesus is nothing more than a special enjoy from God, are accepting of all religions as equal, using other revelation subsequent to the Bible as authoritative, deny the value of Jesus sacrifice or the reality of his resurrection, and in other ways seperate themselves off from historic Christianity. Some of them think that it doesn't matter what you believe -- hardly a Christian concept. And others think that they are the only one's who are right and thus deny that anyone else other than them could be Christian -- obviously thereby isolating themselves from the predominant Christian culture as not a part of it. And therefore, given those views and those practices, I do not include them as a part of the mix of denominations and churches (which is a large number) that are Christian.


As for the remaining list, of literally hundreds of Christian bodies from large denominations like the Catholic Church right down to individual community churches, I submit to you that we are one body in Christ just the same as the Ummah views itself as a single community. This is what we mean when even groups like Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans and other proclaim "we believe in the holy catholic church". We don't mean Catholic as in the church led by the pope; we are using the term "catholic" in its other sense, meaning universal. We believe that there is one universal church to which all Christians belong, no matter what the name above the door where they happen to worship reads. And this universal Church is composed of many different groups (some you listed and some you didn't) who don't all agree with each other about sources of authority in Christian lives today any more than Sunni and Shia agree about such authorities. Many of these groups have other unique beliefs that are not shared by all other Christians. But the membership of them all (or at least their official teachings) do share a oneness in their understanding of the person and work of Jesus. And that makes us one body in Christ, a universal church, just as unified as the Ummah that I find present here.

(Note: Not being a member of both the Umman and the Church, I can't say for sure that one community is more or less or exactly the same in their "oneness" or "universality" than the other. I'm making my assessment based on what I know of the Church from having been in it for more than half a century, and from the little bit of the Ummah I have experienced in 2 years of being on LI and a little less than a decade of regular intermingling with members of the Ummah in my daily life.)

I disagree Seeker. The differences between the Sunnia and Shia ( who use the exact same book) are trifling compared to the massive theological differences between different branches of christianity.


One thing to consider. Sunnias and Shias use the SAME mosque and SAME book. But different christian denominations hole themselves up in seprate churches with varying names and many Bibles.

The unity is clearly not the same.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Khalil_Allah;

is everyone showin' some love in here? EEP!

Are you sure your not a Christian:)

In the spirit of praying to One God,

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

In a way our differences appear to be greater than God !

In a way our own true religion and beliefs appear greater than God !

If we are all created by the same God, we should all be like brothers and sisters together, despite all our differences.:)

In the spirit of praying to the One God we all share.

Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you Khalil_Allah;

Are you sure your not a Christian:)

In the spirit of praying to One God,

Eric

Hes just being a godfearing Muslim. Theres an overlap!

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

Hes just being a godfearing Muslim. Theres an overlap!

Amen to that.:)

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

I disagree Seeker. The differences between the Sunnia and Shia ( who use the exact same book) are trifling compared to the massive theological differences between different branches of christianity.


One thing to consider. Sunnias and Shias use the SAME mosque and SAME book. But different christian denominations hole themselves up in seprate churches with varying names and many Bibles.

The unity is clearly not the same.

You know, I appreciate the way you disagree. There are points that one could actually discuss and that is very helpful if we are to better understand each other.

I agree that there massive theological differences between various denominations. But Christians of different sects can and sometimes do share the same church as well. Just this past Tuesday, I participated in a worship service that included a Roman Catholic priest, a United Presbyterian pastor, a pastor of an independent community church, a Free Methodist pastor, and 2 United Methodist pastors. We do this because we consider our theological differences to be trifling compared to what we hold in common with one another as Christians. That is why I say that despite our many differences there is still unity in the Body of Christ.

On the point you make with regard to the Bible, I need some more information. Other than the fact that Protestant bible's dispute the above mentioned books as not being canonical (thus reflecting the official Hebrew canon used by Jews today) while Catholic and Orthodox allow for them (thus reflecting the unofficial list of books included in the Hebrew canon at the beginning of the Common Era), what "many Bibles" are you referring to?

[AntiKarateKid]

You know, I appreciate the way you disagree. There are points that one could actually discuss and that is very helpful if we are to better understand each other.

I agree that there massive theological differences between various denominations. But Christians of different sects can and sometimes do share the same church as well. Just this past Tuesday, I participated in a worship service that included a Roman Catholic priest, a United Presbyterian pastor, a pastor of an independent community church, a Free Methodist pastor, and 2 United Methodist pastors. We do this because we consider our theological differences to be trifling compared to what we hold in common with one another as Christians. That is why I say that despite our many differences there is still unity in the Body of Christ.

On the point you make with regard to the Bible, I need some more information. Other than the fact that Protestant bible's dispute the above mentioned books as not being canonical (thus reflecting the official Hebrew canon used by Jews today) while Catholic and Orthodox allow for them (thus reflecting the unofficial list of books included in the Hebrew canon at the beginning of the Common Era), what "many Bibles" are you referring to?

Hi Seeker,

That interchurch meeting sounded wonderful. But isnt that the exception rather than the rule?

Im not a Bible expert but just the fact that there is the NIV, NAS, RSV, LB, NLT, and NKJV Bibles among others is a direct cause of controversy and hence disunity.

The more similar a community is, the more unity, right? Various churches even have different forms of service.

Thats all I was getting at really, Alot of Christians I talk to immediately identify themselves as Catholic, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. Why not Christians first? Off the top of my head I cant remember ever meeting another Muslim who immediately said " I'm Sunni".

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Seeker,

That interchurch meeting sounded wonderful. But isnt that the exception rather than the rule?

Depends on what you mean by "the rule". It is a regular event. And is just one of several such regularly scheduled events that we have not just in this community, but in every community in which I have ever had the privilege to live and serve. In fact, where I am now, we get together at least once a month. But if you mean is it every Sunday? No it is not. I'm afraid that Sunday morning remains one of the most divided day of the week. And that is something that needs to be changed.

Im not a Bible expert but just the fact that there is the NIV, NAS, RSV, LB, NLT, and NKJV Bibles among others is a direct cause of controversy and hence disunity.

I thought that might be what you were referring to, and this is not the big deal that people outside of the faith think that it is. (BTW, it isn't just Muslims who are confused by this abundance of translations.) Most Christians would actually see this as a plus. I can go into it further is you want to understand more of why I see a multiplicity of Bibles as a plus. But in short I just encourage you to think of the value of having more than just one English translation of the Qur'an available for those Muslims who don't speak Arabic. If you had only one translation, then any mistake in the translation of the text would be magnified by those who were dependent on it not knowing that there was another way that the passage could have been translated and perhaps getting the wrong idea. For instance, think how some misunderstand those passages that say that a Muslim should not be friends with non-Muslims. Multiple English translations of the Qur'an help those who speak English but not Arabic understand that the meaning behind the translation isn't identical to what most people think of when they see the word "friend" in English. Therefore, based on all that I have read, as most Anglo-phones perceive the connotations of friendship, it is OK for a Muslim and a non-Muslims to be friends, even though it seems at face value to be in direct contradiction to passages like 5:51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." If this was the only translation available in English those who only spoke English would be actually misguided by reading it. In similar ways having multiple English translations of the Bible is helpful to those who wish to understand it, but only speak English and not the native tongues in which the Bible was written.

The more similar a community is, the more unity, right? Various churches even have different forms of service.

I submit that there is also value in diversity. For instance, though I got through school with just a basic 8-pak of Crayola crayons, those who were true aritsts wanted the 64-pak so that they could have access to many different shades. It wasn't enough to draw an orange sun at sunset, they also needed multiple reds, pink, magenta, violets and colors inbetween to express what they saw of God in just a single simple sunset. So, too, we in the church often offer up worship in different forms, but it is all to the same God and we who utilize one style in my church don't pretend that it is better than a different style used in another congregations. Differences don't occur just between denominations, they can occur within a single denomination as well. And this is not bad, this is a good thing as it allows people who are each made differently to find the a place that most closely fits the way that God has created them to offer him the praise he is due. Does that make any sesne to you?

I see our diversity in styles and forms of worship as an expression of the bigness of God, so great is he that no one form can capture all that there is to say and do to praise him. So let there be many forms, just as God created us each as a unique individual. In my community, there are not only many different denominations, there are many different congregations of my own United Methodist Church. Some are small family type churches, some are larger congregations, mine is large enough we actually have 3 different services and each of them has a different style to it, and yet we are just one church. So, are we experiencing disunity or diversity? Well, actually there is a little bit of both. Having more than one service makes it difficult for our congregation to know each other as well as if we only had one larger service, but it also give opportunity for those who do better worshipping in a more formal environment to attend one service and those who are better able to worship using informal forms to worship in another. And yet all understand themselves as belonging to just one church.

That's all I was getting at really, Alot of Christians I talk to immediately identify themselves as Catholic, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. Why not Christians first? Off the top of my head I cant remember ever meeting another Muslim who immediately said " I'm Sunni".

I lot of New Yorkers I talk to immediately identify themselves as from the Bronx, Brooklynn, or Staten Island. Why not as New Yorkers first? Does that mean that they really aren't all part of one city? I note that you list your location as New York and I list mine as USA. Does that mean you are less American than I am? I hope you get my point, and actually I do get yours. I wonder if that experience which you shared changes depending on whether or not Christianity is or is not the dominant religion in the culture. See, I know that in the US what you say is exactly true. But I have been other places in the world where the reversed is true.

I recently interviewed with a church in Hong Kong, and there they didn't distinguish between the various branches of Christianity, accepting them all as one and the same. In Mexico where Catholicism is dominant, all of the Protestant churches share so much with each other, that I had been there for a couple of weeks before I realized that of the 3 people leading the service at the Methodist church I was attending only one was actually a Methodist the others were Presbyterian and Lutheran and they shared all things with one another.

Even in the USA denominationalism is dead. The new people who come to my church don't bother to read the label on the building. They care more about their own personal relationships with the people they meet on the inside. Several years ago the Catholic church in the small town I served closed down, and because my people at the Methodist Church had done so many things cooperatively with them over the years, they actually gave us some of their most precious objects which we continued to use in our church's worship life.

So, while I do accept your point that there is a lot of brokenness in the Christian Church, I do so with modifications that there is also a lot of unity. Certainly more than might be apparent to you at first.

[Follower]

I have done Bible studies where the leaders ask you to bring the so called different Bibles. It is most certainly a plus- a greater depth to the message is revealed.

GOD loves diversity- Look at al the different creatures he created, different landscapes, heavenly bodies, people, etc.

People holding the same basic tenets of faith, but with a different way of expressing that faith is a thing of beauty!!

Maybe because the USA is the melting pot!!