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Faisal Pervaiz
11-18-2008, 08:18 PM
I wanted to know how to back this up as Atheists are always on about this
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Woodrow
11-18-2008, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
I wanted to know how to back this up as Atheists are always on about this
Allaah(swt) always was and always will be. He is beyond the created world and is not bound by the physical limits of time and space.



Off course the answer will be that "Then why could not matter have just formed spontaneously?" The answer is because we know it has a beginning and if it could have formed spontaneously it should have happened many times and there should be matter present that is older then the physical universe we know.
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Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 08:40 PM
Asallam Walykum
LOL when ever i hear this, well becuase it is one of an atheists stong arguments " who created God" am i not correct? they love using this question. First off lets define the word created; if you are created you have a beggining and/or possibly and end right?. Now we knoow that the universe had a begging----the big bang----so it must be created? right? now if you were not created you would be .........ETERNAL...........-with no beggining or and ending, meaning you did not have a beggining. Now you can not be "created" and be eternal as you would have a creation date or time right?. Now i think the answer is comeing, we KNOW that Allah/God is ETERNAL---which means no begging so how can Allah/God be created?---he cant then he would not be Eternal. and we know as Allah mentions that he is ETERNAL-------this must be a no brainer, i mean come on. So no one created Allah/God as he can not be created, he is ETERNAL. that is a silly question you know? think about it.....

I think Shayk Yusuf Estes gives a better answer than me but thats your opinoin:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rRT_qNN7Pvw please watch the whole thing as he covers some other good topics aswell. if you cant see link type Yusuf estes answering a question from listeners on youtube,
PEACE! from brother Ali,
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Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 08:41 PM
lol what do you guys think of my answer?
Peace
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Neo-Tech
11-18-2008, 08:42 PM
Nobody created him, he was always here and always from the beginning.
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Faisal Pervaiz
11-18-2008, 08:47 PM
Thanks, Also i was telling some people that in order for life there must be billions of conditons in order for life to be maintained, and they said that there are billions are planets so there is a good chance that a planet with nesassary condtions will arrive at some point.

What do you think about this?
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 08:52 PM
Salaam
Well that doesnt matter as Allah the creator has told us in the Quran that he has made life and scatterd it around the universe mashallah. that doesnt matter, if there are more life forms in the universe or not, that just strenghts the truthness of the Quran-e-shariffe as it would just mean that the Quran is right again ( about thier being other life forms in the univesre)
Peace brother faisal
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
11-18-2008, 08:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
I wanted to know how to back this up as Atheists are always on about this
Quran wrote:Sura 112 - Al-Ikhlas [Sincerity] Verse 1-4:
1. قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ
2. اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ
3. لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ
4. وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

Quran translation wrote:Sura 112 - Al-Ikhlas [Sincerity] Verse 1-4:
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.




This verse was revealed to Muhammad, The last and final Messenger of God, when he was asked by the idol worshippers during his life time"O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.'' So the verse was revealed

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute, He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is non comparable to Him.'

He is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.

And there is none comparable to Him.

This means that there is none similar to Him, none equal to Him and there is nothing at all like Him.


So as for us being 'part' of god, thats not true because the as the above states that Almighty god is the most unique then that means we are not like Him. Rather, we are His creation and He has created us for a purpose and that is to worship Him and ascribe no partners to Him, for He is far above any equals. As Allah says;

Surely, His is the creation and commandment. Blessed is Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, spirits and all that exists)!
[al-A’raaf 7:54]


www.tafsir.com
Reply

Faisal Pervaiz
11-18-2008, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Salaam
Well that doesnt matter as Allah the creator has told us in the Quran that he has made life and scatterd it around the universe mashallah. that doesnt matter, if there are more life forms in the universe or not, that just strenghts the truthness of the Quran-e-shariffe as it would just mean that the Quran is right again ( about thier being other life forms in the univesre)
Peace brother faisal
yes but Athiests are saying as if the universe didnt need a god, all of what happend , bing bang, Evolution etc happend on its own, by chance.
Reply

Faisal Pervaiz
11-18-2008, 09:03 PM
help please anyone
Reply

Faisal Pervaiz
11-18-2008, 09:12 PM
they belive that the big bang and evolution happend by chane and they belive that this could have happend on at least one planet (earth)

What do you think of this?
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 09:14 PM
Salaam, ok brother well lets put it this way. i find atheist well the say science explains everything right?, well that is thier only option i mean they cant say ohh the universe was created by God, but we evolved and didnt need a God, get what i am saying. they have to base thier thesis on science. now if you want to beat them at thier own game. lets look at the two major atheistic theorys BIG bang and evolution. firstly let me put it this way both of the theorys do not in any way hold account to how the universe started, or how life began, they just explain how the universe grew up, or how life evovoled. so for starters, they are going for something which is not even 50% done, so they are living on something which is not even explaining to them why the univesr of life begin or how it began. they say science solves everything well can scieince say how life began from non-life into life? can they say how the universe started?, they try i mean look at the recent theory M-theory they say branes are being banged which caues another brane to form? i think thats right, yea so they cant answer it properly they have to make some thing up, ok then if branes are being formed by other branes baing together how did the first brane come???? 1+0=/= 2 1 plus nothing doesnt equal 2 lol. anways, look at brother Abdul Fattahs website all about evolution and big bang:

http://www.seemyparadigm.webs.com/
check this out on how evolution doesnt explain how life began: from Abdul Fattah website:
Theory or hypothesis?

First one on the list is abiogenesis. Most evolutionists will avoid this theory claiming it is not a part of evolution. That is why I started of by pointing out the importance of correct terminology. Abiogenesis is not a part of "the evolution of the different species"; however the theory of abiogenesis it is a part of "biological evolution".

Well actually since there are a lot of gaps here -as stated before- abiogenesis is closer to hypothesis rather than a theory. Some scientists speculate that it happened, but they failed to explain in detail exactly how it happened. Since, it's strictly speculation at this point, no proof, no falsifiability and no testability; in all common sense, we should even label this as science. The confusion though, is that this hypothesis is backed up with some scientific speculation, which makes the hypothesis appear scientific in nature. But that however doesn't change the lack of falsifiability, testability and proofs. That being said, lets look at some of the challenges of this theory.


Criteria for the first life

At first one might suggest that the first life form was a virus, since that would have been the easiest to create, since it requires the least number of parts. However a virus is parasitic in nature, and needs a host to reproduce. Another problem with the idea of the first life form being a virus is, that even if there would find a way that this virus would reproduce, it would never be able to evolve into a one-celled-organism. As soon as it would do so, the new evolved organism would immediately be invaded by it's brethren viruses, and wouldn't stand a fighting chance to survival. For this and many more problems, most abiogenesists suggest that the first living organism was a single-cell organism. But even the most simple one-celled organism is incredibly complex when looked at from a chemical level. It requires very specific molecules to be build in very specific manners at very specific places. It's like suggesting that a fully operative factory with working personal included was created from a tornado passing trough a scrapyard and then passing trough a cemetery. Even if the explanation brings you the right components, the tornado lacks the methodology to make those parts into a working plant with living operators. I said "even if", because neither abiogeneses nor evolution can even account for all the necessary parts, let alone explain how they were used together to build a cell. So let us consider what criteria the first biological entity should have had in order to evolve into the different species we know today.

1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.
2. A way to harvest energy.
3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.
4. A way to reproduce.


1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.

For the first part, the container, that sounds very plausible at first. From a chemical point of view, it's not that hard to create a membrane. And some promising work has been done in this field. However, that doesn't cut the mustard. A simple membrane enclosing all the parts would make it a closed system, we need our organism to have some basic interactions with its environment for the second criteria. If our organism should be able to harvest energy from it's environment, it needs "floodgates" in it's membrane that keeps harmful substances out but allows useful ones to enter. There can of course be many substances speculated on which this alleged first organism survived on. So depending on which form of energy it lived on, we need to adjust our membrane to allow that specific substance to pass.

2. A way to harvest energy.

We also need some organelles to harvest and convert this energy which again depends on which form of energy this system lives on. The energy will among other things be required to counter entropy at some point and guarantee the survival of the organism. Evolutionists propose that the first organism was a prokaryote; an organisms without any organelles in its cell that have a membrane-boundary. Most such organisms harvest energy by converting Dihydrogen (4H2) and Carbondioxide (CO2) into (CH4) and (2H2O). This is a process that requires very specific catalysts. Not only to convert the Carbondioxide and Dihydrogen to produce the methane; but also to fix a small remaining percentage of the CO2 into the cell structure.


3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.

The biggest challenge to the theory is DNA or RNA. And without it, there can be no evolution, without it no progress of previous life can be past down. And without passing down information, you cannot build up something, you cannot have an evolution. Since all living things have RNA or DNA, abiogenesists would expect the very first alive being to have it as well..Those molecules however are immensely complex. So the biggest challenge to abiogenesis is explaining how it could have formed spontaneously out of lifeless matter. But we encounter a paradox a bit similar as the chicken or the egg problem. Organisms carry genetic information in these nucleic acids; in their RNA or DNA. This information is then used to specify the composition of the amino acid sequences of all the proteins each cell needs to make. The cell also relies on organelles built out of proteins to replicate DNA or RNA during cell-division. So these proteins are required for self-perpetuation. So the question is: How did such a circular system come to existence? This is a real paradox. Nucleic acids are made with the help of proteins and proteins are made with the presence of their corresponding nucleotide sequence. So which of those two was first? The chicken or the egg? Common sense suggests that they were both created independently; which is even harder to phantom.

In 1953 the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted that attempted to mimic the conditions on earth during the time life originated. They mixed water and hydrogen as well as methane and ammonia. Then they used electrodes to emit electrical charges into the mixture. After several days of continuously charging the mixture with sparks, they managed to get about 2% of amino acids. However, much larger percentage of substances that are harmful to life also were created trough the process. Next to that the experiment didn't account by far for all types of amino acids required to make the needed proteins. Furthermore the experiment also failed to explain how these amino acids would then go on to form the required proteins. The experiment also showed some of the building blocks for nuclide acids, but again does not account for how they could have formed DNA/RNA. Furthermore, there were both left handed as well as right handed isomers in a 50% to 50% ratio, whereas only one type is used in our DNA.

Now, often people reply that this experiment only lasted a couple of days or a week, whereas the earth existed millions of years for this process to take place. But how does this change anything? The experiment was a controlled structured environment, whereas earth was an open unstructured chaotic environment, if anything the experiment should bring forth life a lot faster then the earth did, that is off course, if abiogenesis would be true. But let me expose the flaw in this counterargument by making a comparison. Lets say mankind cannot run 100m in 3.2 sec. We are simply unable to do so. Now if a track would run a stretch of 100m on a track of 200m or 300m or even 1000m; that would still not enable anyone to run those 100m of that track in 3.2 sec. In other words the length of the track -as long as it is longer then 100 meter- hardly affects the possibility of the performance because the additional length has no bearing on the likeliness of the performance. Likewise; the many years that the universe existed, and the many planets that were suitable for this process to occur does not influence the likeliness of such a process to be possible. If a process that should take 5 minutes cannot occur in a week, it cannot occur in a million years either. The amount of time available, as long as it is enough, doesn't make the chemically impossible into probable. Just putting ingredients together and stirring it up doesn’t suffice. That’s as ludicrous as saying that if you shake a box of Lego blocks long enough, eventually the building blocks in the box will spontaneously construct the house that is displayed on the front of the box.

But that's just the beginning. Next to the shortcomings of the experiment a lot of other criticism exists as to how representative it was. The experiment did not contain oxygen, since oxygen generally oxidizes anything it comes in contact with. This oxidation is quite destructive. Some scientists reply to this that the atmosphere didn't contain oxygen at that time. Be that as it may, no oxygen means that there also was no ozone, which is formed by oxygen. Ozone blocks us from UV light from the sun. Without ozone we'd be bombarded by it. And UV-light breaks down ammonia, one of the major components of the experiment. So I guess you're catching my drift by now. Either the experiment should have contained oxygen, to account for the presence of ammonium or we have to explain the high presence of ammonium despite the lack of ozone.

Another angle to looking at it -panspermia- is even more far fetched. Rather then only suggesting lightning struck at the exact same spot for a whole week, it also suggest that a meteor carrying amino acids also hit the very same spot. Now it is true that some meteors carry amino acids and that under unique circumstances the impact could cause peptides. But these peptides are short chains of amino acids, not the long proteins necessary for life. Furthermore it's even more unlikely considering not just any meteor would fit the bill. It has to be exactly the right size. Not to small so it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere destroying the amino acids, and not to big so the impact isn't to destructive either. At the same time delivering enough energy for the chemical process to take place. Also note, that this shifts part of the problem. It's true that some meteors carry amino acids, but how did those amino acids form in the meteor in the first place? This simply avoids the problem of having to explain how these molecules were formed trough natural processes.
4. A way to reproduce. Reproduction is obviously also a vital part.

If the organism just dies out without reproducing itself, the process of abiogenesis would just have to start all over again. As I said before we would have to have the right nucleic acids and the right proteins as well. The process of DNA reproduction, which is vital to cell division and reproduction is a very complex process which relies on different organelles.
Conclusion.

So I think you would see by now that the process of abiogenesis is most unlikely. And by unlikely I do not mean there are a number of different possible outcomes of which abiogenesis is just one. I do not mean it as a statistical implausibility. It is unlikely much rather because the circumstances allegedly giving this outcome are insufficient to explain the process at all.


Peace brothers and sisters from brother ALi
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 09:15 PM
Sallam
let me know what you think brother faisal

Peace wasallam
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 09:17 PM
Salaam i replied to this brother check it out, please dont make lots of threads when you have a topic coverd already, sorry brother. here it is again:
Salaam, ok brother well lets put it this way. i find atheist well the say science explains everything right?, well that is thier only option i mean they cant say ohh the universe was created by God, but we evolved and didnt need a God, get what i am saying. they have to base thier thesis on science. now if you want to beat them at thier own game. lets look at the two major atheistic theorys BIG bang and evolution. firstly let me put it this way both of the theorys do not in any way hold account to how the universe started, or how life began, they just explain how the universe grew up, or how life evovoled. so for starters, they are going for something which is not even 50% done, so they are living on something which is not even explaining to them why the univesr of life begin or how it began. they say science solves everything well can scieince say how life began from non-life into life? can they say how the universe started?, they try i mean look at the recent theory M-theory they say branes are being banged which caues another brane to form? i think thats right, yea so they cant answer it properly they have to make some thing up, ok then if branes are being formed by other branes baing together how did the first brane come???? 1+0=/= 2 1 plus nothing doesnt equal 2 lol. anways, look at brother Abdul Fattahs website all about evolution and big bang:

http://www.seemyparadigm.webs.com/
check this out on how evolution doesnt explain how life began: from Abdul Fattah website:
Theory or hypothesis?

First one on the list is abiogenesis. Most evolutionists will avoid this theory claiming it is not a part of evolution. That is why I started of by pointing out the importance of correct terminology. Abiogenesis is not a part of "the evolution of the different species"; however the theory of abiogenesis it is a part of "biological evolution".

Well actually since there are a lot of gaps here -as stated before- abiogenesis is closer to hypothesis rather than a theory. Some scientists speculate that it happened, but they failed to explain in detail exactly how it happened. Since, it's strictly speculation at this point, no proof, no falsifiability and no testability; in all common sense, we should even label this as science. The confusion though, is that this hypothesis is backed up with some scientific speculation, which makes the hypothesis appear scientific in nature. But that however doesn't change the lack of falsifiability, testability and proofs. That being said, lets look at some of the challenges of this theory.


Criteria for the first life

At first one might suggest that the first life form was a virus, since that would have been the easiest to create, since it requires the least number of parts. However a virus is parasitic in nature, and needs a host to reproduce. Another problem with the idea of the first life form being a virus is, that even if there would find a way that this virus would reproduce, it would never be able to evolve into a one-celled-organism. As soon as it would do so, the new evolved organism would immediately be invaded by it's brethren viruses, and wouldn't stand a fighting chance to survival. For this and many more problems, most abiogenesists suggest that the first living organism was a single-cell organism. But even the most simple one-celled organism is incredibly complex when looked at from a chemical level. It requires very specific molecules to be build in very specific manners at very specific places. It's like suggesting that a fully operative factory with working personal included was created from a tornado passing trough a scrapyard and then passing trough a cemetery. Even if the explanation brings you the right components, the tornado lacks the methodology to make those parts into a working plant with living operators. I said "even if", because neither abiogeneses nor evolution can even account for all the necessary parts, let alone explain how they were used together to build a cell. So let us consider what criteria the first biological entity should have had in order to evolve into the different species we know today.

1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.
2. A way to harvest energy.
3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.
4. A way to reproduce.


1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.

For the first part, the container, that sounds very plausible at first. From a chemical point of view, it's not that hard to create a membrane. And some promising work has been done in this field. However, that doesn't cut the mustard. A simple membrane enclosing all the parts would make it a closed system, we need our organism to have some basic interactions with its environment for the second criteria. If our organism should be able to harvest energy from it's environment, it needs "floodgates" in it's membrane that keeps harmful substances out but allows useful ones to enter. There can of course be many substances speculated on which this alleged first organism survived on. So depending on which form of energy it lived on, we need to adjust our membrane to allow that specific substance to pass.

2. A way to harvest energy.

We also need some organelles to harvest and convert this energy which again depends on which form of energy this system lives on. The energy will among other things be required to counter entropy at some point and guarantee the survival of the organism. Evolutionists propose that the first organism was a prokaryote; an organisms without any organelles in its cell that have a membrane-boundary. Most such organisms harvest energy by converting Dihydrogen (4H2) and Carbondioxide (CO2) into (CH4) and (2H2O). This is a process that requires very specific catalysts. Not only to convert the Carbondioxide and Dihydrogen to produce the methane; but also to fix a small remaining percentage of the CO2 into the cell structure.


3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.

The biggest challenge to the theory is DNA or RNA. And without it, there can be no evolution, without it no progress of previous life can be past down. And without passing down information, you cannot build up something, you cannot have an evolution. Since all living things have RNA or DNA, abiogenesists would expect the very first alive being to have it as well..Those molecules however are immensely complex. So the biggest challenge to abiogenesis is explaining how it could have formed spontaneously out of lifeless matter. But we encounter a paradox a bit similar as the chicken or the egg problem. Organisms carry genetic information in these nucleic acids; in their RNA or DNA. This information is then used to specify the composition of the amino acid sequences of all the proteins each cell needs to make. The cell also relies on organelles built out of proteins to replicate DNA or RNA during cell-division. So these proteins are required for self-perpetuation. So the question is: How did such a circular system come to existence? This is a real paradox. Nucleic acids are made with the help of proteins and proteins are made with the presence of their corresponding nucleotide sequence. So which of those two was first? The chicken or the egg? Common sense suggests that they were both created independently; which is even harder to phantom.

In 1953 the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted that attempted to mimic the conditions on earth during the time life originated. They mixed water and hydrogen as well as methane and ammonia. Then they used electrodes to emit electrical charges into the mixture. After several days of continuously charging the mixture with sparks, they managed to get about 2% of amino acids. However, much larger percentage of substances that are harmful to life also were created trough the process. Next to that the experiment didn't account by far for all types of amino acids required to make the needed proteins. Furthermore the experiment also failed to explain how these amino acids would then go on to form the required proteins. The experiment also showed some of the building blocks for nuclide acids, but again does not account for how they could have formed DNA/RNA. Furthermore, there were both left handed as well as right handed isomers in a 50% to 50% ratio, whereas only one type is used in our DNA.

Now, often people reply that this experiment only lasted a couple of days or a week, whereas the earth existed millions of years for this process to take place. But how does this change anything? The experiment was a controlled structured environment, whereas earth was an open unstructured chaotic environment, if anything the experiment should bring forth life a lot faster then the earth did, that is off course, if abiogenesis would be true. But let me expose the flaw in this counterargument by making a comparison. Lets say mankind cannot run 100m in 3.2 sec. We are simply unable to do so. Now if a track would run a stretch of 100m on a track of 200m or 300m or even 1000m; that would still not enable anyone to run those 100m of that track in 3.2 sec. In other words the length of the track -as long as it is longer then 100 meter- hardly affects the possibility of the performance because the additional length has no bearing on the likeliness of the performance. Likewise; the many years that the universe existed, and the many planets that were suitable for this process to occur does not influence the likeliness of such a process to be possible. If a process that should take 5 minutes cannot occur in a week, it cannot occur in a million years either. The amount of time available, as long as it is enough, doesn't make the chemically impossible into probable. Just putting ingredients together and stirring it up doesn’t suffice. That’s as ludicrous as saying that if you shake a box of Lego blocks long enough, eventually the building blocks in the box will spontaneously construct the house that is displayed on the front of the box.

But that's just the beginning. Next to the shortcomings of the experiment a lot of other criticism exists as to how representative it was. The experiment did not contain oxygen, since oxygen generally oxidizes anything it comes in contact with. This oxidation is quite destructive. Some scientists reply to this that the atmosphere didn't contain oxygen at that time. Be that as it may, no oxygen means that there also was no ozone, which is formed by oxygen. Ozone blocks us from UV light from the sun. Without ozone we'd be bombarded by it. And UV-light breaks down ammonia, one of the major components of the experiment. So I guess you're catching my drift by now. Either the experiment should have contained oxygen, to account for the presence of ammonium or we have to explain the high presence of ammonium despite the lack of ozone.

Another angle to looking at it -panspermia- is even more far fetched. Rather then only suggesting lightning struck at the exact same spot for a whole week, it also suggest that a meteor carrying amino acids also hit the very same spot. Now it is true that some meteors carry amino acids and that under unique circumstances the impact could cause peptides. But these peptides are short chains of amino acids, not the long proteins necessary for life. Furthermore it's even more unlikely considering not just any meteor would fit the bill. It has to be exactly the right size. Not to small so it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere destroying the amino acids, and not to big so the impact isn't to destructive either. At the same time delivering enough energy for the chemical process to take place. Also note, that this shifts part of the problem. It's true that some meteors carry amino acids, but how did those amino acids form in the meteor in the first place? This simply avoids the problem of having to explain how these molecules were formed trough natural processes.
4. A way to reproduce. Reproduction is obviously also a vital part.

If the organism just dies out without reproducing itself, the process of abiogenesis would just have to start all over again. As I said before we would have to have the right nucleic acids and the right proteins as well. The process of DNA reproduction, which is vital to cell division and reproduction is a very complex process which relies on different organelles.
Conclusion.

So I think you would see by now that the process of abiogenesis is most unlikely. And by unlikely I do not mean there are a number of different possible outcomes of which abiogenesis is just one. I do not mean it as a statistical implausibility. It is unlikely much rather because the circumstances allegedly giving this outcome are insufficient to explain the process at all.


Peace brothers and sisters from brother ALi
Reply

Argamemnon
11-18-2008, 09:19 PM
My questions to the knowledgeable among us;

1) Is evolution really a scientific theory, or is it pseudo-science, a belief system?

2) Even if evolution is a scientific theory, does it in any way "disprove" the existence of a Creator? Why do atheists use this theory to disprove something that can never be disproven?
Reply

Woodrow
11-18-2008, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
Thanks, Also i was telling some people that in order for life there must be billions of conditons in order for life to be maintained, and they said that there are billions are planets so there is a good chance that a planet with nesassary condtions will arrive at some point.

What do you think about this?
To begin with the creation of life and the creation of matter are two seperate issues. Life as we know it can not exist matter. Matter came before life was created. The only material life we know the specific of being created directly by a Allaah(swt) is Adam(as). And he was created from clay.

Now can life form spontaneously from matter? I do not think that has been ruled out by anything said in the Qur'an. We do not that man was not created spontaneously, but I can not verify one way or the other in the Qur'an or Ahadeeth.

I can not find anything to rule out the possibility of life on other planets. Nor can I find anything to prove that there is, but for some reason in al-Fatiha we say "Lord of the Worlds" Not "Lord of the World"

If life is found on other planets, I can think of no reason that would go against the teachings of Islam. No problem if it is found and no problem if it is never found. Either way it is not a proof or disproof of Islam.
Reply

Hamayun
11-18-2008, 09:19 PM
Brother do a search on youtube for Sheikh Yusuf Estes because as a brother above mentioned he has given some brilliant lectures.

The simple fact is:

1. If God was "created" then he can not be God.

2. A creator can not be part of the creation. If he is part of the creation then he is not the creator.

3. Laws of physics and constraints of time only apply to us. God is not bound by them.

4. Even if life started by "chance" from basic elements then where did those elements come from?

I could go on for weeks but there is enough info available here and on the Idawah site.

Peace :)
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
My questions to the knowledgeable among us;
Salaam brother, well i dont know if i am on that level but i will give it a go with a bit of help from Abdul Fattah webiste lol
What's at stake?

As you undoubtedly know already; evolution has been a hot topic for decades, and it's still being widely discussed today. And all to often proponents of evolution like to create the illusion as if the debate on evolution is a debate of science vs. religion. But let's look at what's really at stake shall we?

The theistic agenda.

Let us say for the sake of argument that as an extreme example tomorrow every single little thing that falls under biological evolution turns out to be true! How would that influence the theist his paradigm? Well it wouldn't change a lot. Even in the worst case scenario that all turns out to be true, intelligent design (ID) still 'rescues' religion. Like I explain here, our current scientific knowledge on causality still leaves more then enough room for divine powers to be at the source of it. So from that viewpoint of science, a God that creates species in a metaphysical was is just as miraculous as a God creating them trough his habitual enforcement of physical law. So this means nothing really changes, at least not for Muslims. So the reason that I reject some parts of evolution is not because of my religion, because I started to doubt some of those parts even before I became Muslim. I simply question some parts because they don't seem to be making any sense. Christians on the other hand would have some problems, since their scripture includes specific details that would be rendered false if every last part of evolution turns out to be true. However the late Catholic pope John Paul did publish an open letter stating that these specific details from the book of genesis were added by the Catholic church when the Bible was being compiled, for the purpose of answering questions that weren't answerable at that time. The letter was being published at the time that Christians in the US were lobbying to introduce the theory of creation in science classes. To that subject I would like to state that although I myself am a creationists, I recognize that this theory has no place in science class. However at the same time as a scientist I must add that some parts of biological evolution don't belong in science class either!

The atheistic agenda.

Now, again for the sake of argument, let us assume the opposite extreme. Say that tomorrow every single part of biological evolution turns out to be false. How would that alter the atheists paradigm? Well the atheist would have some major unsolved mysteries in his paradigm. Although some might be fine with that, others may find their paradigm to crumble. As it is today, the wrongful usage of randomness as a counter against the anthropic argument is already a bit of a stretch, as explained here. But if on top of that, the whole lot of theories under biological evolution fall away; this counter simply can't be stretched that far. The atheistic paradigm would have a huge gap there. I argue atheists would automatically start to formulate their personal beliefs of what did happen. Now these beliefs may vary from alien conspiracy theories, to philosophical abstract visions or classical religious views. Nevertheless each self aware atheist will start to inevitably wonder about this and consider alternative explanations. I would say such qualifies as a major change of paradigm. And major paradigm changes is something that people tend to fear and dislike. Changing paradigms is scary due to the uncertainty of what the change will lead to. The human psyche has a natural inclination to fear everything that is unknown. So changing paradigms means that during the transition you would need to consider your whole world as unknown. Not an easy thing to look forward to.

Likely suspect?

Although both creationists and evolutionists have a tendency to be biased by their religious views, or their lack thereof. The bias is much more crucial for the atheists as opposed to the theists! Since accepting evolution is allot less crucial for a theist as opposed to rejecting evolution is for an atheist. So when an atheist accuses his opponent of being reluctant to accept his view because of his religious views, it is most likely a case of projection where the atheist is actually the one reluctant to consider the opposite viewpoint. In conclusion the atheist is the likely suspect of hidden agendas.

the theory of evolution in no way denies the existance of a creator, it is just becuase most religions dont accept it in a way of coming to existance, even if it was true it doesnt matter.

Peace
Reply

yasin ibn Ahmad
11-18-2008, 09:29 PM
May be this simple example would help.You know the system of trains.There are lots of wagons linked to each other.None of them has a power to move them on themselves.Every wagon moves thnks to the previous one.And the first one which has a power source, lokomotive, has nothing in front of it.It is not a wagon.It is a different kind of carriage.No one can ask "Who pulls the lokomotive?"
Salaam alaikoum
Reply

Woodrow
11-18-2008, 09:31 PM
REMINDER:

Do not make separate threads for related topics. Keep similar topics together.
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 09:36 PM
Salaam,
turning out to be a good thred? inshallah we hope to have answered you questions faisal
Peace wasalaam
Reply

Faisal Pervaiz
11-18-2008, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Salaam i replied to this brother check it out, please dont make lots of threads when you have a topic coverd already, sorry brother. here it is again:
Salaam, ok brother well lets put it this way. i find atheist well the say science explains everything right?, well that is thier only option i mean they cant say ohh the universe was created by God, but we evolved and didnt need a God, get what i am saying. they have to base thier thesis on science. now if you want to beat them at thier own game. lets look at the two major atheistic theorys BIG bang and evolution. firstly let me put it this way both of the theorys do not in any way hold account to how the universe started, or how life began, they just explain how the universe grew up, or how life evovoled. so for starters, they are going for something which is not even 50% done, so they are living on something which is not even explaining to them why the univesr of life begin or how it began. they say science solves everything well can scieince say how life began from non-life into life? can they say how the universe started?, they try i mean look at the recent theory M-theory they say branes are being banged which caues another brane to form? i think thats right, yea so they cant answer it properly they have to make some thing up, ok then if branes are being formed by other branes baing together how did the first brane come???? 1+0=/= 2 1 plus nothing doesnt equal 2 lol. anways, look at brother Abdul Fattahs website all about evolution and big bang:

http://www.seemyparadigm.webs.com/
check this out on how evolution doesnt explain how life began: from Abdul Fattah website:
Theory or hypothesis?

First one on the list is abiogenesis. Most evolutionists will avoid this theory claiming it is not a part of evolution. That is why I started of by pointing out the importance of correct terminology. Abiogenesis is not a part of "the evolution of the different species"; however the theory of abiogenesis it is a part of "biological evolution".

Well actually since there are a lot of gaps here -as stated before- abiogenesis is closer to hypothesis rather than a theory. Some scientists speculate that it happened, but they failed to explain in detail exactly how it happened. Since, it's strictly speculation at this point, no proof, no falsifiability and no testability; in all common sense, we should even label this as science. The confusion though, is that this hypothesis is backed up with some scientific speculation, which makes the hypothesis appear scientific in nature. But that however doesn't change the lack of falsifiability, testability and proofs. That being said, lets look at some of the challenges of this theory.


Criteria for the first life

At first one might suggest that the first life form was a virus, since that would have been the easiest to create, since it requires the least number of parts. However a virus is parasitic in nature, and needs a host to reproduce. Another problem with the idea of the first life form being a virus is, that even if there would find a way that this virus would reproduce, it would never be able to evolve into a one-celled-organism. As soon as it would do so, the new evolved organism would immediately be invaded by it's brethren viruses, and wouldn't stand a fighting chance to survival. For this and many more problems, most abiogenesists suggest that the first living organism was a single-cell organism. But even the most simple one-celled organism is incredibly complex when looked at from a chemical level. It requires very specific molecules to be build in very specific manners at very specific places. It's like suggesting that a fully operative factory with working personal included was created from a tornado passing trough a scrapyard and then passing trough a cemetery. Even if the explanation brings you the right components, the tornado lacks the methodology to make those parts into a working plant with living operators. I said "even if", because neither abiogeneses nor evolution can even account for all the necessary parts, let alone explain how they were used together to build a cell. So let us consider what criteria the first biological entity should have had in order to evolve into the different species we know today.

1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.
2. A way to harvest energy.
3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.
4. A way to reproduce.


1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.

For the first part, the container, that sounds very plausible at first. From a chemical point of view, it's not that hard to create a membrane. And some promising work has been done in this field. However, that doesn't cut the mustard. A simple membrane enclosing all the parts would make it a closed system, we need our organism to have some basic interactions with its environment for the second criteria. If our organism should be able to harvest energy from it's environment, it needs "floodgates" in it's membrane that keeps harmful substances out but allows useful ones to enter. There can of course be many substances speculated on which this alleged first organism survived on. So depending on which form of energy it lived on, we need to adjust our membrane to allow that specific substance to pass.

2. A way to harvest energy.

We also need some organelles to harvest and convert this energy which again depends on which form of energy this system lives on. The energy will among other things be required to counter entropy at some point and guarantee the survival of the organism. Evolutionists propose that the first organism was a prokaryote; an organisms without any organelles in its cell that have a membrane-boundary. Most such organisms harvest energy by converting Dihydrogen (4H2) and Carbondioxide (CO2) into (CH4) and (2H2O). This is a process that requires very specific catalysts. Not only to convert the Carbondioxide and Dihydrogen to produce the methane; but also to fix a small remaining percentage of the CO2 into the cell structure.


3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.

The biggest challenge to the theory is DNA or RNA. And without it, there can be no evolution, without it no progress of previous life can be past down. And without passing down information, you cannot build up something, you cannot have an evolution. Since all living things have RNA or DNA, abiogenesists would expect the very first alive being to have it as well..Those molecules however are immensely complex. So the biggest challenge to abiogenesis is explaining how it could have formed spontaneously out of lifeless matter. But we encounter a paradox a bit similar as the chicken or the egg problem. Organisms carry genetic information in these nucleic acids; in their RNA or DNA. This information is then used to specify the composition of the amino acid sequences of all the proteins each cell needs to make. The cell also relies on organelles built out of proteins to replicate DNA or RNA during cell-division. So these proteins are required for self-perpetuation. So the question is: How did such a circular system come to existence? This is a real paradox. Nucleic acids are made with the help of proteins and proteins are made with the presence of their corresponding nucleotide sequence. So which of those two was first? The chicken or the egg? Common sense suggests that they were both created independently; which is even harder to phantom.

In 1953 the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted that attempted to mimic the conditions on earth during the time life originated. They mixed water and hydrogen as well as methane and ammonia. Then they used electrodes to emit electrical charges into the mixture. After several days of continuously charging the mixture with sparks, they managed to get about 2% of amino acids. However, much larger percentage of substances that are harmful to life also were created trough the process. Next to that the experiment didn't account by far for all types of amino acids required to make the needed proteins. Furthermore the experiment also failed to explain how these amino acids would then go on to form the required proteins. The experiment also showed some of the building blocks for nuclide acids, but again does not account for how they could have formed DNA/RNA. Furthermore, there were both left handed as well as right handed isomers in a 50% to 50% ratio, whereas only one type is used in our DNA.

Now, often people reply that this experiment only lasted a couple of days or a week, whereas the earth existed millions of years for this process to take place. But how does this change anything? The experiment was a controlled structured environment, whereas earth was an open unstructured chaotic environment, if anything the experiment should bring forth life a lot faster then the earth did, that is off course, if abiogenesis would be true. But let me expose the flaw in this counterargument by making a comparison. Lets say mankind cannot run 100m in 3.2 sec. We are simply unable to do so. Now if a track would run a stretch of 100m on a track of 200m or 300m or even 1000m; that would still not enable anyone to run those 100m of that track in 3.2 sec. In other words the length of the track -as long as it is longer then 100 meter- hardly affects the possibility of the performance because the additional length has no bearing on the likeliness of the performance. Likewise; the many years that the universe existed, and the many planets that were suitable for this process to occur does not influence the likeliness of such a process to be possible. If a process that should take 5 minutes cannot occur in a week, it cannot occur in a million years either. The amount of time available, as long as it is enough, doesn't make the chemically impossible into probable. Just putting ingredients together and stirring it up doesn’t suffice. That’s as ludicrous as saying that if you shake a box of Lego blocks long enough, eventually the building blocks in the box will spontaneously construct the house that is displayed on the front of the box.

But that's just the beginning. Next to the shortcomings of the experiment a lot of other criticism exists as to how representative it was. The experiment did not contain oxygen, since oxygen generally oxidizes anything it comes in contact with. This oxidation is quite destructive. Some scientists reply to this that the atmosphere didn't contain oxygen at that time. Be that as it may, no oxygen means that there also was no ozone, which is formed by oxygen. Ozone blocks us from UV light from the sun. Without ozone we'd be bombarded by it. And UV-light breaks down ammonia, one of the major components of the experiment. So I guess you're catching my drift by now. Either the experiment should have contained oxygen, to account for the presence of ammonium or we have to explain the high presence of ammonium despite the lack of ozone.

Another angle to looking at it -panspermia- is even more far fetched. Rather then only suggesting lightning struck at the exact same spot for a whole week, it also suggest that a meteor carrying amino acids also hit the very same spot. Now it is true that some meteors carry amino acids and that under unique circumstances the impact could cause peptides. But these peptides are short chains of amino acids, not the long proteins necessary for life. Furthermore it's even more unlikely considering not just any meteor would fit the bill. It has to be exactly the right size. Not to small so it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere destroying the amino acids, and not to big so the impact isn't to destructive either. At the same time delivering enough energy for the chemical process to take place. Also note, that this shifts part of the problem. It's true that some meteors carry amino acids, but how did those amino acids form in the meteor in the first place? This simply avoids the problem of having to explain how these molecules were formed trough natural processes.
4. A way to reproduce. Reproduction is obviously also a vital part.

If the organism just dies out without reproducing itself, the process of abiogenesis would just have to start all over again. As I said before we would have to have the right nucleic acids and the right proteins as well. The process of DNA reproduction, which is vital to cell division and reproduction is a very complex process which relies on different organelles.
Conclusion.

So I think you would see by now that the process of abiogenesis is most unlikely. And by unlikely I do not mean there are a number of different possible outcomes of which abiogenesis is just one. I do not mean it as a statistical implausibility. It is unlikely much rather because the circumstances allegedly giving this outcome are insufficient to explain the process at all.


Peace brothers and sisters from brother ALi

Thank you so much brother Ali that has really cleared it up, thanx for going to all that trouble.
Reply

Ali_Cena
11-18-2008, 10:01 PM
salaam, mashallah brother faisal, that has made my day, thank you for the good reply brother, glad to have helped you out, and no worrys i am always glad to help you out in the truth inshallah, salam
Peace from brother ALi
Reply

healing hands
11-19-2008, 04:45 AM
the finite trying to FULLY comprehend infinite...pretty problematic
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Argamemnon
11-19-2008, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Likely suspect?

Although both creationists and evolutionists have a tendency to be biased by their religious views, or their lack thereof. The bias is much more crucial for the atheists as opposed to the theists! Since accepting evolution is allot less crucial for a theist as opposed to rejecting evolution is for an atheist. So when an atheist accuses his opponent of being reluctant to accept his view because of his religious views, it is most likely a case of projection where the atheist is actually the one reluctant to consider the opposite viewpoint. In conclusion the atheist is the likely suspect of hidden agendas.

the theory of evolution in no way denies the existance of a creator, it is just becuase most religions dont accept it in a way of coming to existance, even if it was true it doesnt matter.

Peace
Thanks brother. I agree; atheists are shocked when somebody questions even the slightest detail of evolution. Some atheists are very very religious indeed!
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Ali_Cena
11-19-2008, 09:36 PM
:w:
peace be unto you inshallah, thanks.
yea thats what i find, i mean if evolution was correct that doesnt really matter to us, i mean in islam, if everything was 100% correct with evolution intelligent design still backs up religion. and suppose 100% evolution is wrong, how the hell is athiest going to react, i mean think about it. you have been living a lie. anways, hope that filled you up with imaan inshallah, part of the thanks goes to Abdul Fattah. anways:D:D See you later
:sl: (need any more quesitons ask! lol)
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Olive
11-19-2008, 09:47 PM
:sl:

Everything that exists, has a cause. Like the universe - it's cause is God. So the atheist says, who created God?

If everything that exists has a cause, then something created God, and something created the something that created God and on and on.

Therefore, there must be a first cause that was not caused by anything - and this is God.

Hope that helped. :)

:w:
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Argamemnon
11-19-2008, 09:54 PM
"Who created God" is the stupidest question ever. How can a Creator of life be created by another Creator. That really doesn't make sense whatsoever.
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Mikayeel
11-20-2008, 09:05 AM
:sl:

I hate when atheist go down that road of who created god. The way i look at it, is if god was created then who created that god, and who created the god that created all gods..and who created him? So before we know it we have 3 billion gods, and still counting. But astagfirulah, this is not the case.
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- Qatada -
12-17-2008, 08:18 PM
:salamext:


Our beliefs as Muslims is that Allah wasn't created, since Allah is Perfect. If something is perfect, it cannot be dependant upon another being or 'energy' to become what it is of perfection. Since perfection implies that the being is not dependant upon no other.

So since we believe Allah is Perfect, we believe He wasn't created, He was and always is. He isn't dependant upon anything and everything is dependant upon Him. He is the Ever Living, and is free from any imperfections.


This is why He forbids us from worshipping the creation and orders us to worship Him.
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Hamayun
12-17-2008, 08:26 PM
I have a question :-[ I know this is a very stupid question but I will ask anyway :-[

What did Allah do before he created the universe? What existed before the universe and the heavens?
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- Qatada -
12-17-2008, 08:31 PM
:salamext:


It could be that Allah has been creating forever, that's been stated by some scholars. Ibn Taymiyya held this view.

Allah knows best.


http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...nity-1471.html
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Muezzin
12-17-2008, 08:33 PM
The 'Who created God' argument presupposes that God is made of matter, and bound by the physical laws that govern life in this universe.

The major religions tend to teach otherwise.
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Argamemnon
12-17-2008, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
yes but Athiests are saying as if the universe didnt need a god, all of what happend , bing bang, Evolution etc happend on its own, by chance.
Atheism is the belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which turned into dinosaurs.. :)
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Whatsthepoint
12-17-2008, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Atheism is the belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which turned into dinosaurs.. :)
That's one theory. There several, some feasible, others less feasible, some utterly deluded.
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Hamayun
12-18-2008, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:salamext:


It could be that Allah has been creating forever, that's been stated by some scholars. Ibn Taymiyya held this view.

Allah knows best.


http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...nity-1471.html

Jazakallah for that Bro :)

Subhan Allah You always provide interesting things to read.
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Argamemnon
12-18-2008, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That's one theory. There several, some feasible, others less feasible, some utterly deluded.
What are the other theories or the feasible ones?
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tetsujin
01-02-2009, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
I wanted to know how to back this up as Atheists are always on about this
I should emphasize that this has nothing to do with my "way of life".


The questions here are:

1) Can the natural world be created by a super natural being?

and similarly

2) Is there anything which cannot be explained by a supernatural cause?

3) What can we infer about the cause (creator) from the effects (i.e. "creation)?

If you have an answer to number 2 then you can move on the the original question.

In short, when you are speaking in terms of cause and effect, and the only information you have about the cause comes from the effect, you cannot ascribe to the cause any properties in excess of what is required to produce that effect.

Edit: To rephrase: With access to just the natural world, how can you infer any supernatural causes? In the process, are you begging the question by assuming anything which should not be assumed?

Sincerely,

Faysal
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Chuck
01-02-2009, 11:36 PM
imo these questions are useless.
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tetsujin
01-02-2009, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
imo these questions are useless.
Just an opinion? Darn, I thought you had some palpable reason...

Sincerely,

Faysal
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czgibson
01-02-2009, 11:53 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Atheism is the belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which turned into dinosaurs.. :)
Who told you that? ^o)

Peace
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جوري
01-02-2009, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
I should emphasize that this has nothing to do with my "way of life".


The questions here are:

1) Can the natural world be created by a super natural being?
How do you define 'Natural' and what would be likewise your definition of a 'supernatural world'?
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Whatsthepoint
01-02-2009, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
What are the other theories or the feasible ones?
Here's one with no scientific basis whatsoever, however perfectly feasible from a philosophical standpoint, at least I think so.
Our universe is a byproduct of a reaction that took place in another universe where our logic, causality etc don't apply.
The second one that I can remember, I think it was already posted here somwhere, claims that the universe is basically a form of nothing. If correct, are views of nothingness would of course have to be wrong, they may be, considering that the current definition was produced by philosophers centuries ago.
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Hamayun
01-03-2009, 01:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Here's one with no scientific basis whatsoever, however perfectly feasible from a philosophical standpoint, at least I think so.
Our universe is a byproduct of a reaction that took place in another universe where our logic, causality etc don't apply.
But that would still lead you back to the original question.... where did that universe come from? How is that an answer to the question? :?
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wth1257
01-03-2009, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
I wanted to know how to back this up as Atheists are always on about this
It's not a good question for atheists in itself, it usually comes in response to the cosmological argument whose key assumption is generally some variant of the proposition "Everything needs a cause" and ends with the conclusion "therefore there must be some ultimate first cause". To this the atheist justafiably asks, "well, if everything needs a cause, then what about God"
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
But that would still lead you back to the original question.... where did that universe come from? How is that an answer to the question? :?
The point is that the laws and logic in the primal universe were or are still different, for instance, matter can be created out of nothing or it can exist forever or something.
There are no evidence to support the theory but it's perfectly valid, just like the god theory. Personally I can't tell which theory is more probable so I call myself an agnostic.
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wth1257
01-03-2009, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The point is that the laws and logic in the primal universe were or are still different, for instance, matter can be created out of nothing or it can exist forever or something.
There are no evidence to support the theory but it's perfectly valid, just like the god theory. Personally I can't tell which theory is more probable so I call myself an agnostic.

In relativistic physics matter is energy and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Some of the physical laws may have been codified with the big band. For example time is asymmetrical. You can break an egg but you cannot unbreak it, why is this? It's not anywhere in the mathematical description of the physical process of breaking the egg.
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
In relativistic physics matter is energy and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Some of the physical laws may have been codified with the big band. For example time is asymmetrical. You can break an egg but you cannot unbreak it, why is this? It's not anywhere in the mathematical description of the physical process of breaking the egg.
I'm gonna have to answer a question with a question. Was that a rhetorical question or question question?
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wth1257
01-03-2009, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm gonna have to answer a question with a question. Was that a rhetorical question or question question?
I ono:embarrass

I guess rhetorical but if you want to dabble in theoretical physics far be it for me to stop you and good luck:D
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BlackMamba
01-03-2009, 05:16 AM
(57) It is related by Abu Hurairah that the Apostle of God said: “Occasionally, Satan comes to you and asks, ‘Who created this thing [and] who created that thing,’ It goes on like that till about God Himself he sows the doubt in your hearts [that when everything has been created by someone] who is His creator? So when this stage is reached the bondsman should seek the refuge of the Lord and stop."
-Bukhari and Muslim
Commentary.-It shows that such ideas and misgivings are the handiwork of Satan and when he causes a doubt concerning the very existence of the Lord to crop up in anyone’s heart the best course for him is to beg the protection of God against the mischief of the Devil and divert his mind from it. When the existence of Allah is an Attribute of His Being and He is the Creator of all things a question like this does not arise about Him in the least degree
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Zamtsa
01-03-2009, 05:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
I wanted to know how to back this up as Atheists are always on about this
Rasulullah said "Syaithan are always questioning this, they make people ask "Who created everything?" the answer is "Allahu Ta'ala." until finally they ask "Who created Allah?." When someone has this question then say "I have faith on Allahu Ta'ala and Rasulullah," that will erase the doubt.(Silsilah Hadits Ash Shahihah 1 by syaikh Nashir Al Albaani).

What Allahu Ta'ala do before creating? He likes to praise Himself. There was a time when Allahu Ta'ala doesn't create anything nor talking, but He always have the ability of creating, talking and any other ability, characters, actions which he has.

Allahu Ta'ala had shown Himself through His names which He informed to His Rasul, which He showed in His Kitab, and which He keep inside His knowledge of the unseen.
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^[AnKaBooT]^
01-03-2009, 01:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Neo-Tech
Nobody created him, he was always here and always from the beginning.
:sl:
I have thought about this topic about from where god existence started but its BEYOND OUR DUMB MIND.

THERE IS NO BEGINNING.

U CANT THINK OF A BEGINNING.
U(humans) can THINK 999999999999years.BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING .
ThERe should be no statement such that he was ALWAYS there.THERE IS NO 'ALWAYS'.It is just THERE!
Sry if i made any mistakes GOD FORGIVE ME.
:w:
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alcurad
01-03-2009, 02:44 PM
god is incomprehensible, and there is no way for us to know what happened before the big bang, let alone if indeed it occurred as currently described.
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Gator
01-03-2009, 03:03 PM
Hi.

format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
My questions to the knowledgeable among us;

1) Is evolution really a scientific theory, or is it pseudo-science, a belief system?
Its a scientific theory.

format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
2) Even if evolution is a scientific theory, does it in any way "disprove" the existence of a Creator? Why do atheists use this theory to disprove something that can never be disproven?
I don't think evolution disproves a god. It could be gods mechanism.

I think it is used to argue against certain ideas (like YEC) and provides a framework for a naturalistic view on how things came about.

Thanks.
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Qingu
01-03-2009, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
god is incomprehensible, and there is no way for us to know what happened before the big bang, let alone if indeed it occurred as currently described.
There is no such thing as "before the big bang."

In the same way, there is no such thing as "north of the north pole."

The universe contains all of space and all of time. If the big bang is the earliest point in the universe, then it doesn't make any sense to talk about "before" the big bang, because time itself did not exist.

A lot of the confusion on this subject comes from the fact that our language is based on the existence of time. Past, present, future tense, words like "before," all assume a constant flow of time. But if time is limited to a dimension inside the universe, statements such as yours literally break down into nonsense.

I know this is confusing, but if you'd like to read more about it, I heartily recommend Stephen Hawking's book, A Brief History of Time.
Reply

Qingu
01-03-2009, 05:10 PM
Another clarification: a lot of religious people think science says time is "infinite."

This is not the case. Time, like space, is not infinite. The universe has a limited area, and it has a limited age. In fact, time and space are part of the same sort of fabric, called "spacetime," which is what Einstein proved.

So the question is not whether spacetime is infinite. The question is whether spacetime has any sort of "edge" or "boundary." When people say the Big Bang is the "beginning" of time, they often have in mind a sort of drop-off or edge, where at one moment there was no universe, and then the next moment there was.

But this doesn't make any sense. Because "moments" are all part of spacetime, and thus part of the universe.

A better way to think about the Big Bang, the "beginning," is like the North Pole on Earth. The North Pole is the "northernmost" point on earth, just like the Big Bang is the "earliest" point in spacetime. But the North Pole isn't an edge or a boundary. The surface of the earth doesn't drop off at the North Pole—it remains smooth. You can't go "north" of the North Pole, just like you can't go "before" the Big Bang. But this is because the Big Bang is simply a point on the structure of the universe, like the North Pole is a point on Earth's surface.

The upshot of all this is as follows: If there is no time outside of the Universe, then the Universe has by definition always existed. Just like you believe your God has always existed. It may be finite—it may have an "earliest point" or "beginning"—but its finite time is all the time there is.
Reply

alcurad
01-03-2009, 05:12 PM
why can't it happen in relation to other events, in a time other than our own so to speak?
Reply

alcurad
01-03-2009, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Another clarification: a lot of religious people think science says time is "infinite."
I don't see much to do with being religious or not, it's a pretty 'normal' assumption.
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Chuck
01-03-2009, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
There is no such thing as "before the big bang."
There is:
A team of physicists has claimed that our view of the early Universe may contain the signature of a time before the Big Bang.
The discovery comes from studying the cosmic microwave background (CMB), light emitted when the Universe was just 400,000 years old.
Their model may help explain why we experience time moving in a straight line from yesterday into tomorrow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7440217.stm
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
There is:
A team of physicists has claimed that our view of the early Universe may contain the signature of a time before the Big Bang.
The discovery comes from studying the cosmic microwave background (CMB), light emitted when the Universe was just 400,000 years old.
Their model may help explain why we experience time moving in a straight line from yesterday into tomorrow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7440217.stm
Wow, this confirms my theory.:p
Reply

tetsujin
01-03-2009, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
How do you define 'Natural' and what would be likewise your definition of a 'supernatural world'?
Natural? Anything of, or within, the observable universe which is bound by the known and soon to be known laws of said universe. Positive integers and what not....

I pressume you have a working definition for supernatural world which is seperate and distinct from natural world, I don't. I haven't, to my knowledge, observed a supernatural world.

I'll use your definition, whatever it is, as long as we agree that the natural and supernatural are mutually exclusive.

I missed you too. Want you like a nice bag of Jamaican coffee beans? I got them for christmas and I'm not too fond of it.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

alcurad
01-03-2009, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
team of physicists has claimed...Their model may help explain why we experience time moving in a straight line from yesterday into tomorrow.
theory, not scientifically proven..

for this thread, generally, the human mind is limited, so from it's limited experience anything that is not observable in some form is 'not there' ie it doesn't exist. science tries to explain what's observable, religion explains matters beyond observing, that is beyond science. using either in place of the other is not understanding their nature.
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tetsujin
01-03-2009, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
theory, not scientifically proven..

for this thread, generally, the human mind is limited, so from it's limited experience anything that is not observable in some form is 'not there' ie it doesn't exist. science tries to explain what's observable, religion explains matters beyond observing, that is beyond science. using either in place of the other is not understanding their nature.
Metaphysical claims can be evaluated with reason and logic. It doesn't matter who is making a philosophical claim, we can all recognize formal logic? Yes?

Is there anything that cannot be explained by supernatural forces? If there isn't then what purpose, if any, does it serve? Apart from warm fuzzy feelings, I don't see the advantage.


Edit: Germ Theory, Atomic Theory, Theory of Gravity? Science does not prove anything, anyways....

Sincerely,

Faysal
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Chuck
01-03-2009, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Wow, this confirms my theory.:p
What theory?
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
What theory?
This one:
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Here's one with no scientific basis whatsoever, however perfectly feasible from a philosophical standpoint, at least I think so.
Our universe is a byproduct of a reaction that took place in another universe where our logic, causality etc don't apply.
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Chuck
01-03-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
theory, not scientifically proven..

for this thread, generally, the human mind is limited, so from it's limited experience anything that is not observable in some form is 'not there' ie it doesn't exist. science tries to explain what's observable, religion explains matters beyond observing, that is beyond science. using either in place of the other is not understanding their nature.
And what that dude is saying there is no nothing before big bang is not even a theory. Anyway, I'm showing the same thing, few years earlier scientists were saying there is nothing before 'big bang', and now with new technology and observations they are discovering that was not true.
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Chuck
01-03-2009, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
This one:
Btw, according to Quran there are 7 universes. JFYI :D
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Btw, according to Quran there are 7 universes. JFYI :D
Where?
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Hamayun
01-03-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Where?

Just off Junction 8 on the M25...

What kind of a question is that? :rolleyes:
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Just off Junction 8 on the M25...

What kind of a question is that? :rolleyes:
A longer version just for you: could you show me the verse where the Quran speaks of there being 7 universes.
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alcurad
01-03-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
If there isn't then what purpose, if any, does it serve? Apart from warm fuzzy feelings, I don't see the advantage.
how do you think the early humans advanced then? by being atheist?
civilizations existed because of metaphysical beliefs.
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Hamayun
01-03-2009, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A longer version just for you: could you show me the verse where the Quran speaks of there being 7 universes.
2:29 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

23:17
We created above you seven universes in layers, and we are never unaware of a single creature in them.
67:3
He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?

71:15


Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers?
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
2:29 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

23:17
We created above you seven universes in layers, and we are never unaware of a single creature in them.
67:3
He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?

71:15


Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers?
I thought these verses were supposed to refer to the layers of the atmosphere? Make up your mind already.^o)
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Hamayun
01-03-2009, 08:30 PM
Why would there be creatures in the layers of atmosphere? I'm confused :?
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Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Why would there be creatures in the layers of atmosphere? I'm confused :?
I don't know, ask Mr Yahya.
What I'm saying is that it is equally baseless to assume the verses speak of seven universes or seven layers of the atmosphere.
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alcurad
01-03-2009, 10:21 PM
about that philosophy you mentioned Whatsthepoint:
[30:11] God is the One who initiates the creation and repeats it. Ultimately, you will be returned to Him. (qur'aan)
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Chuck
01-03-2009, 10:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't know, ask Mr Yahya.
What I'm saying is that it is equally baseless to assume the verses speak of seven universes or seven layers of the atmosphere.
Discussion has been done about it before, read this thread it is only 2 pages: http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ven-skies.html

I did some research into the this and I found out Quran uses two types phrase to refer to heavens, one was related to earth and other was universe. So I believe depending on the context it refers to two different things and one verse seems to be mentioning both:
Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number.
(065.012)
But only Arabic speaker can clear this up whether above verse means seven earths or it means seven layers on earth.
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tetsujin
01-04-2009, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
how do you think the early humans advanced then? by being atheist?
Early humans advanced through scientific endeavors, yes by and large they probably got things wrong along the way but no one prayed for a wheel to drop out of the sky.

format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
civilizations existed because of metaphysical beliefs.
Can't disagree with that, although you may be thinking that "metaphysical beliefs" automatically implies GOD, I'm sorry.

Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Natural? Anything of, or within, the observable universe which is bound by the known and soon to be known laws of said universe. Positive integers and what not....
'Natural' has an imaginary line or standard by which things are measured or compared? No? -- but in and of itself is rather extraordinary.. as evidenced by the fact that it isn't reproducible in a vacuum..
for instance and I pose this Q.. can we perhaps simulate a universe in a small room.. still with our own manipulation throw in the ingredients, and anticipate the nascency of the smallest unit of life ( a cell), with each tiny unit forming on its own volition into tRNA, mRNA, cell membrane, cell wall -- support for such cells to resist osmotic pressure, cellular respiration, mitochondria, codons - nucleic acids, cytoplasm, cytoskeleton - enzymes - Golgi apparatus -nucleotides -nucleus - organelles - peptide bonds - ribosome - subcellular structures, RNA, RNA polymerase - rough endoplasmic reticulum (RER) -smooth endoplasmic reticulum (SER) - etc etc and from there expect that it falls into place that it would morph into all the different cell types present in the body to produce such things as ( skin, muscle, bone, blood vessel, and nerve), and migrate to the right location. and have that process again repeat again and again in that like harmony as a polymer to give us all that is in our known universe? whether in plants, animals, under the sea or the cosmos?

I pressume you have a working definition for supernatural world which is seperate and distinct from natural world, I don't. I haven't, to my knowledge, observed a supernatural world.
You haven't correctly defined to us what is 'natural' and thus can't really expect you to define what is supernatural.. I mean where is the baseline? If we were all born with special powers (like the X men) would that in and of itself be defined as 'natural' everyone possessing the same traits however amazing from where we are standing, will be 'natural'?..
If you'll sit back and observe you'll find that everything occurring 'on its volition' is pretty much extraordinary!

I'll use your definition, whatever it is, as long as we agree that the natural and supernatural are mutually exclusive.
see my above replies
I missed you too. Want you like a nice bag of Jamaican coffee beans? I got them for christmas and I'm not too fond of it.


Sincerely,

Faysal
I prefer french roast fresh ground daily with some cardamom.. so thanks but no thanks!
Reply

tetsujin
01-04-2009, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
'Natural' has an imaginary line or standard by which things are measured or compared? No?
Sure

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
-- but in and of itself is rather extraordinary.. as evidenced by the fact that it isn't reproducible in a vacuum..
for instance and I pose this Q.. can we perhaps simulate a universe in a small room.. still with our own manipulation throw in the ingredients, and anticipate the nascency of the smallest unit of life ( a cell),
Normally I wouldn't cut you off here, but the rest of your paragraph really depends on an explanation to your/our? audience that a cell need not have, as an example, mitochondria or even a nucleus. Are you demanding the chance reproduction of Archaea, Eubacteria, Eukaryotic cells?

Life does not necessarly start of with all the wonderful things you've listed below. Although perhaps RNA may be necessary, I don't know, there could be some other form of life based on someother self replicating molecule.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
with each tiny unit forming on its own volition into tRNA, mRNA, cell membrane, cell wall -- support for such cells to resist osmotic pressure, cellular respiration, mitochondria, codons - nucleic acids, cytoplasm, cytoskeleton - enzymes - Golgi apparatus -nucleotides -nucleus - organelles - peptide bonds - ribosome - subcellular structures, RNA, RNA polymerase - rough endoplasmic reticulum (RER) -smooth endoplasmic reticulum (SER) - etc etc and from there expect that it falls into place that it would morph into all the different cell types present in the body to produce such things as ( skin, muscle, bone, blood vessel, and nerve), and migrate to the right location. and have that process again repeat again and again in that like harmony as a polymer to give us all that is in our known universe? whether in plants, animals, under the sea or the cosmos?
I don't see how any of that relates to original question. Why create a vacuum and then render it useless by throwing stuff in? Creationists usually want me/us/non-theists to make everything from scratch...

Well, I'll even give you a hand. For anyone interested in Mixotricha Paradoxa



Blew my mind. This little guy lives inside the gut of a termite, who really can't live without it, and the Mixotricha depends on other bacterial symbionts for even moving around... (see those hair like "cilia"? those are bacterium stuck to it's wall)

I digress...

I don't see how any of that relates to original question.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You haven't correctly defined to us what is 'natural' and thus can't really expect you to define what is supernatural.. I mean where is the baseline? If we were all born with special powers (like the X men) would that in and of itself be defined as 'natural' everyone possessing the same traits however amazing from where we are standing, will be 'natural'?..
If you'll sit back and observe you'll find that everything occurring 'on its volition' is pretty much extraordinary!
You have a strange way of flirting with the English language. If everything is extraordinary I'd hate to be ordinary.

Feel free to define it correctly for me, I don't disgree wth anything you've said. And yes, if we were all "X-men" then that would be "natural". Let's not get to the "what if's" before we get through "what is".

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I prefer french roast fresh ground daily with some cardamom.. so thanks but no thanks!
No problem, it'll sit around another year I guess.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

ZarathustraDK
01-04-2009, 02:47 AM
Just to clarify an equivocation I saw in this thread.

Theory can mean 2 things depending on the reader. Theory can be as in "I think that these things behave such and such" which laymen often use in everyday language. Theory can also mean "scientific theory" which is great step beyond a mere gist'm'guess about the reality of things.

Still, believers have a tendency to equate the latter with the former (which is no foul unless it's on purpose of course, hell, even non-believers do it sometimes), when the correct term for "laymans theory" applied to science would be "scientific hypothesis".

Relativity-theory, for instance, we don't really take as an "opinion" about how matter could be thought to behave because we know it works (ask any inhabitant of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about that one). Sadly (in relation to this argument), not all scientific theories have such awe-inspiring examples of their validity as the effects are more subtle and unseen by the layman than a nuclear explosion ending a war.
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tetsujin
01-04-2009, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
... not all scientific theories have such awe-inspiring examples of their validity as the effects are more subtle and unseen by the layman than a nuclear explosion ending a war.
Appreciate you point it out.

Although I must say that most scientfic theories do have effects on day to day life if we simply understand them and they're applications.

Anyone who has bought an a pair of polarized sunglasses has seen the difference that scientific "theories" can make.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-04-2009, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
about that philosophy you mentioned Whatsthepoint:
[30:11] God is the One who initiates the creation and repeats it. Ultimately, you will be returned to Him. (qur'aan)
Interesting indeed, though I doubt it refers to new universes forming in old ones. You never know though.
I'm gonna check out some tafsirs on this one.
Reply

Vito
01-04-2009, 03:07 AM
There are no Allahs. There is only Allah.



format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Thayyib
Rasulullah said "Syaithan are always questioning this, they make people ask "Who created everything?" the answer is "Allahu Ta'ala." until finally they ask "Who created Allah?." When someone has this question then say "I have faith on Allahu Ta'ala and Rasulullah," that will erase the doubt.(Silsilah Hadits Ash Shahihah 1 by syaikh Nashir Al Albaani).
I like this answer :thankyou:
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Sure



Normally I wouldn't cut you off here, but the rest of your paragraph really depends on an explanation to your/our? audience that a cell need not have, as an example, mitochondria or even a nucleus. Are you demanding the chance reproduction of Archaea, Eubacteria, Eukaryotic cells?
It doesn't matter which type.. you are going off on non-issues really.. chance production on anything I am merely using a small unit, because even though it is small in size the functions are phenomenal ..
How about working with what we have even? denature DNA of a flower for instance, re-anneal it so it can maintan original form, and then give it life, form and functionality.. .. I am willing to forgo the total human manipulation if you can reproduce just that much! --
I am rather at a loss though with what you mean by this? ' audience that a cell need not have, as an example,
Life does not necessarly start of with all the wonderful things you've listed below. Although perhaps RNA may be necessary, I don't know, there could be some other form of life based on someother self replicating molecule.
Can you explain what you mean by that? what does life start with? even hilarious examples of symbiosis, you'll still need a host for the process to actually be well--symbiotic!..

I don't see how any of that relates to original question. Why create a vacuum and then render it useless by throwing stuff in? Creationists usually want me/us/non-theists to make everything from scratch...
why gauge a topic at all if all the routes are unacceptable to you?.. what it is your explanation of how it all came to be? Where is the kick off?
I'd really like something scientific and palpable.. seems sort of unfair to put those sort of demands on 'Theists' and forgo them yourself?

Well, I'll even give you a hand. For anyone interested in Mixotricha Paradoxa

what does symbiosis or a protozoan have to do with anything? perhaps you'll unravel this mystery to us?


can't live without it, and the Mixotricha depends on other bacterial symbionts for simply even moving around... I digress...

I don't see how any of that relates to original question.
You do digress, and I am not sure how your own Mixotricha Paradoxa has to do with the original topic either? perhaps you can tie it together for us nicely?


You have a strange way of flirting with the english language. If everything is extraordinary I'd hate to be ordinary.
I am not flirting with anything at all.. It is my personal belief that abundance of splendor deadens the hearts of some.. as if they are owed it somehow.. take away someone's ability to 'anything natural' and you'd see how much they'd pay to have it by artificial means!
Feel free to define it correctly for me, I don't disgree wth anything you've said. And yes, if we were all "X-men" then that would be "natural". Let's get to the what if's before we get through what is.
What if what? I think the what is, is the here and now, seems more pressing than hypothetical to work with what we actually see?



No problem, it'll sit around another year I guess.


Sincerely,

Faysal
There is always the homeless shelters.. just because they are down and out doesn't mean they don't like a cup of Jamaican Joe every now and then!

cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-04-2009, 03:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Discussion has been done about it before, read this thread it is only 2 pages: http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ven-skies.html

I did some research into the this and I found out Quran uses two types phrase to refer to heavens, one was related to earth and other was universe. So I believe depending on the context it refers to two different things and one verse seems to be mentioning both:

But only Arabic speaker can clear this up whether above verse means seven earths or it means seven layers on earth.
Yes, I believe Mr Yahya compares the heaven verses to the layers of atmosphere (which has pretty much been disproved in the thread you provided, especially with fishman's post, and in several other threads) and the earth verses to the layers of Earth (I think there's a thread about that).
I also came across the 7 Earth thing you speak of, however I didn't know it arose in the same verses.
Reply

tetsujin
01-04-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
why gauge a topic at all if all the routes are unacceptable to you?...
I didn't even know this was a route. It was your tangent to begin with.


I shall assume, if I may, that you believe Newton's laws of motion would not hold true were it not the (and hoping I'll be forgiven for using the word) will of god to constantly upold them. As if once they were dicovered, god was all the more awe inspiring.

If my assumption is correct, then we have nothing further to discuss, as you've simply ignored my first post.


Most shelters will not accept opened packages of food, and so I'm stuck. I appreciate the thought behind the gift, but a gift card to the local coffee shop would have been just as good.


Sincerely,

Faysal

`````````````````````````

Edit:
http://www.answers.com/extraordinary

Extraordinary
adj.
1) Beyond what is ordinary or usual: extraordinary authority.
2) Highly exceptional; remarkable: an extraordinary achievement.
3) Employed or used for a special service, function, or occasion: a minister extraordinary; an extraordinary professor.


http://www.answers.com/ordinary

Ordinary
adj.
1) Commonly encountered; usual. See synonyms at common.
2)
a) Of no exceptional ability, degree, or quality; average.
b) Of inferior quality; second-rate.
Reply

ZarathustraDK
01-04-2009, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Can you explain what you mean by that? what does life start with? even hilarious examples of symbiosis, you'll still need a host for the process to actually be well--symbiotic!..
It's feasible for amino-acids to form from inorganic compunds C, H, O, N, P, S given the right conditions like PH-value and temperature. Sure, it may be improbable in a test-tube, but when the test-tube is the size of the worlds oceans then it's another story. From there to RNA it's pretty simple.

Some (most if I'm not mistaken) of the organelles/structures in the cell are symbiotes which some primordial cell (not unlike an amoeba) engulfed via endocytosis. The mitochondria, for instance, retains its own DNA, which is funny because this DNA is unaltered (it does not get split and mixed via meiosis), so you can use the mDNA to track the genetic heritage of humans back to Africa.
Reply

tetsujin
01-04-2009, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
It's feasible for amino-acids to form from inorganic compunds C, H, O, N, P, S given the right conditions like PH-value and temperature. Sure, it may be improbable in a test-tube, but when the test-tube is the size of the worlds oceans then it's another story. From there to RNA it's pretty simple.

Some (most if I'm not mistaken) of the organelles/structures in the cell are symbiotes which some primordial cell (not unlike an amoeba) engulfed via endocytosis. The mitochondria, for instance, retains its own DNA, which is funny because this DNA is unaltered (it does not get split and mixed via meiosis), so you can use the mDNA to track the genetic heritage of humans back to Africa.

All well and dandy, but this is her round-about way of asking to prove a negative.

Science could utterly fall apart this minute, and that would not constitute a solitary step, logically, towards confirming the existence of a god.

Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
I didn't even know this was a route. It was your tangent to begin with.
When posing rhetorical Q's an unleashing of possibilities will ensue.. I'd assume it monotonous otherwise and not really conducive to growth to any party involved!
I shall assume, if I may, that you believe Newton's laws of motion would not hold true were it not the (and hoping I'll be forgiven for using the word) will of god to constantly upold them. As if once they were dicovered, god was all the more awe inspiring.
What am I to make of this exactly?
Man discovering endogenous intellect?
Man sharing observed and/or theoretical phenomenon?
Man ostentatiously presenting physics 101 to an unsuspecting public?
It is indeed my own personal belief though I haven't imposed it on anyone, that knowledge of any subject leads to Allah swt.. hence

"The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving."
(Qur'an: Fatir: 53: 28)
except in the Quran of course the term 'Al'olama' 'scientists' is used, which I am not quite sure denotes erudite!

If my assumption is correct, then we have nothing further to discuss, as you've simply ignored my first post.
which first post are you talking about? you've quite a few, the one I read is the one I immediately replied to.. but you are right otherwise, we have not much to discuss-- we come from two completely different schools of thoughts.. and I have a 'natural' dislike to atheists that would be somewhat against my 'nature' to go against for the sake of diplomacy. so we should indeed on this note part ways!

Most shelters will not accept opened packages of food, and so I'm stuck. I appreciate the thought behind the gift, but a gift card to the local coffee shop would have been just as good.


Sincerely,

Faysal
You can always throw it out.. I am sure no great injustice will come your way for parting with something you find distasteful...

cheers
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 03:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
It's feasible for amino-acids to form from inorganic compunds C, H, O, N, P, S given the right conditions like PH-value and temperature. Sure, it may be improbable in a test-tube, but when the test-tube is the size of the worlds oceans then it's another story. From there to RNA it's pretty simple.
I am game with that..I am willing to go along-- I'd very much like that demonstrated, well beyond the get together of inorganic compounds, to amino acids to actual form and functionality.. as I am sure a man of your intellect has heard of introns and exons, nonfunctional units ejected from the process for no apparent reason. Perhaps you can discuss the 'few' missing details (you know that is where God actually is).. I'd like an evolution of everything from those pesky Noble metals to the sodium potassium pump to sentience from the few inorganic compounds.. You can't honestly expect me to take something at face value, simply because one of you retorted (it's pretty simple)

Some (most if I'm not mistaken) of the organelles/structures in the cell are symbiotes which some primordial cell (not unlike an amoeba) engulfed via endocytosis. The mitochondria, for instance, retains its own DNA, which is funny because this DNA is unaltered (it does not get split and mixed via meiosis), so you can use the mDNA to track the genetic heritage of humans back to Africa.
see my above reply!

cheers
Reply

tetsujin
01-04-2009, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
It is indeed my own personal belief though I haven't imposed it on anyone, that knowledge of any subject leads to Allah swt...
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
the one I read is the one I immediately replied to.. but you are right otherwise, we have not much to discuss-- we come from two completely different schools of thoughts..
Was that so hard? I'm beginning to think we're friends.

"When we infer any particular cause from an effect, we must proportion the one to the other, and can never be allowed to ascribe to the cause any qualities, but what are exactly sufficient to produce the effect." ~ Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding

A positive claim is made for the constant intervention of Allah in the "natural" world, thus far indistinguishable to me from universe created by a deist god which requires no constant intervention. If you cannot distinguish the two, what purpose does it serve to believe that Allah is intervening at every quantum moment?

Edit: Is there a flaw in my school of thought, other than simply not accepting yours?

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You can always throw it out.. I am sure no great injustice will come your way for parting with something you find distasteful...
I'd rather not waste it.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Was that so hard?
Forgive me.. I thought it was rather obvious?
"When we infer any particular cause from an effect, we must proportion the one to the other, and can never be allowed to ascribe to the cause any qualities, but what are exactly sufficient to produce the effect." ~ Hume, An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding

'The principle is clearly false on our normal understanding of what are the criteria of inference about empirical matters. For the universal adoption of this celebrated principle would lead to the abandonment of science. Any scientist who told us only that the cause of E had E-producing characteristics would not add an iota to our knowledge. Explanation of matters of fact consists in postulating on reasonable grounds that the cause of an effect has certain characteristics other than those sufficient to produce the effect'.~~Richard Swinburne


I find it rather absurd you dissembling self search and free thought to your conclusions of God's nonentity, yet yield to quotes from atheist philosophy..
I suppose this should have the same effect on me as my usage Quranic verses on you.. nonetheless as you can see, it takes a total of two seconds to find another school of thought to rebut fallacies within the first..
True discovery is a solo act.. I suppose there so few pioneers left, the rest must leach off of them!

A positive claim is made for the constant intervention of Allah in the "natural" world, thus far indistinguishable to me from universe created by a deist god which requires no constant intervention. If you cannot distinguish the two, what purpose does it serve to believe that Allah is intervening at every quantum moment.
I agree... maybe after much deliberation you can see, that you come quite evenly matched with 'theists' in your belief system?.. and truly atheism enforcing a universal negative is nothing but a belief system.. it has neither been able to prove God's nonexistence, nor has it made a logical scientific claim to everything in existence....
really no different than two schizophrenics, one who displays all positive symptoms, and the other all negative symptoms.. which ever route they are on, they are still schizophrenics.. and likewise whichever route you choose, you are a slave to something.. albeit it a philosophy of lesser luster in my humble opinion!



I'd rather not waste it.


Sincerely,

Faysal
as you like!
Reply

tetsujin
01-04-2009, 05:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Forgive me.. I thought it was rather obvious?


'The principle is clearly false on our normal understanding of what are the criteria of inference about empirical matters. For the universal adoption of this celebrated principle would lead to the abandonment of science. ...
I can't think of a single example where that was true.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
...Any scientist who told us only that the cause of E had E-producing characteristics would not add an iota to our knowledge. Explanation of matters of fact consists in postulating on reasonable grounds that the cause of an effect has certain characteristics other than those sufficient to produce the effect'.~~Richard Swinburne
Scientific hypothesis are models based on recurring events or models which define a process, the resulting theory therefore postulates on reasonable grounds that the cause of an effect has certain characteristics. These can be, although not always, expressed as a mathematical formula. They need not describe a singular event, such as the cause of a particular apple falling from a particular tree at a particular moment, but and explanation of the mechanical framework for the acceleration which the apple experiences and which every other object can experience.

Swineburne overstates Hume's objective which was not to limit the explanatory power of any theory to a singular event, but to forgo any unnecessary and/or irrelevant axioms which are the true source of impediments to scientific inquiry.

No theory thus far, known to me, is in need of any characteristics in excess of that which is required to explain any recurring phenomena. Whether we speak of a planet orbiting its host star of the classic apple falling from a tree... Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation is applicable. Other theories may be used to describe other phenomena, but that in no way contradicts the quote I provided.

Hume's tacit atheism neither adds nor detracts from the logic on which this philosophy is based, that in my opinion is Swineburne’s personal problem as his criticism was refuted well within his professional career.

Sincerely,
Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 05:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
I can't think of a single example where that was true.
The same mind that takes flight with independence and creativity in thought, can likewise be restrained with limitations of its own choosing..
It is just a matter of comfort zone. (everyone is guilty of it)
Scientific hypothesis are models based on recurring events or models which define a process, the resulting theory therefore postulates on reasonable grounds that the cause of an effect has certain characteristics. These can be, although not always, expressed as a mathematical formula. They need not describe a singular event, such as the cause of a particular apple falling from a particular tree at a particular moment, but and explanation of the mechanical framework for the acceleration which the apple experiences and which every other object can experience.
why are you giving me the dictionary definition of science? as I haven't spend the last 13 years of my life studying it-- The perk about science is, its every changing and ever self correcting.. It doesn't suspend itself with archaic laws to appease the belief system or a philosophical movement..
indeed, somethings need not always be expressed by mathematical formulas, but probabilities, and mathematics loan more credence than mere postulations assumed to be true based on general principle to a necessary effect and not supported by any experimental and/or observable facts.
If at the very fulcrum upon which all else rests is a belief, then the rest too is likewise no matter how credible the claim.. substituting one philosophy for another with more decorative words is just the same!

Swineburne overstates Hume's objective which was not to limit the explanatory power of any theory to a singular event, but to forgo any unnecessary and/or irrelevant axioms which are the true source of impediments to scientific inquiry.
Swinburne concerns me as much as Hume, perhaps you've missed the point entirely which is your quote of a school of thought reduces you to the very thing you appear to despise. I find both schools of thoughts flawed, or perhaps I should say I found my niche in something else all together!


No theory thus far, known to me, is in need of any characteristics in excess of that which is required to explain any recurring phenomena. Whether we speak of a planet orbiting its host star of the classic apple falling from a tree... Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation is applicable. Other theories may be used to describe other phenomena, but that in no way contradicts the quote I provided.
I have no idea of the relevance of any theory whether I personally accept it or not to do with God's existence or nonexistence?.. Science is limited to science.. You have any unspecified thing and work to explain it preferably by setting some standards and variables.. the more variables the more complex the formula.. and from where I am standing, we are in a very complex universe with most variables unaccounted for!

Hume's tacit atheism neither adds nor detracts from the logic on which this philosophy is based, that in my opinion is Swineburne’s personal problem as his criticism was refuted well within his professional career.

Sincerely,
Faysal
philosophy is philosophy and often time akin to bull ****!

have a great evening
Reply

ZarathustraDK
01-04-2009, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I am game with that..I am willing to go along-- I'd very much like that demonstrated, well beyond the get together of inorganic compounds, to amino acids to actual form and functionality.. as I am sure a man of your intellect has heard of introns and exons, nonfunctional units ejected from the process for no apparent reason. Perhaps you can discuss the 'few' missing details (you know that is where God actually is).. I'd like an evolution of everything from those pesky Noble metals to the sodium potassium pump to sentience from the few inorganic compounds..
Introns and exons does not get ejected for "no apparent reason", they get ejected because they happen to be spliced that way when translated. Some of them serve a purpose, others are just junk-code which doesn't confer any negative traits onto its host and is thus exempt from natural selection.

From inorganic compunds to the sodium potassium pump, ask an evolutionary biologist or attend a class, you can't honestly expect me to elaborate on the whole process in a forum as it's a topic you can write thick books about. I mean look at this:


That's "just" how a late subproduct of sugar is oxidated in order to make a compound that'll later be made into energy in an equally complex manner. You want me to explain not only how that (and a million other things like that) works, but also how it came to be that way, in a FORUM?!

I'm not saying it's impossible, simply that it isn't feasible.
Reply

Qingu
01-04-2009, 05:53 PM
Guys, I really recommend just ignoring Skye. I feel like having discussions with her legitimizes her kind of hateful and condescending posting style. There are plenty of other Muslims on here who are willing to have more respectful and open-minded discussions.
Reply

Qingu
01-04-2009, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
There is:
A team of physicists has claimed that our view of the early Universe may contain the signature of a time before the Big Bang.
The discovery comes from studying the cosmic microwave background (CMB), light emitted when the Universe was just 400,000 years old.
Their model may help explain why we experience time moving in a straight line from yesterday into tomorrow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7440217.stm
This is "multiverse" hypothesis, which simply pushes the goalpost back. The same problem arises when you get to the earliest "universe" from which our universe eventually emerged from.

So my point still stands.
Reply

Qingu
01-04-2009, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't know, ask Mr Yahya.
What I'm saying is that it is equally baseless to assume the verses speak of seven universes or seven layers of the atmosphere.
Seven heavens was a common belief at the time the early Arabs were writing. It's based on the Greek idea that the Earth is surrounded by seven celestial spheres—one for the sun, one for the moon, and one for the five visible planets. Most cultures at the time of Muhammad believed this and wrote about it, including the Jews and Christians as well as the pagans during the Greek and Roman Empires.

So you could just as easily (and dishonestly) claim that all these cultures' actually knew about "seven universes" and had sacred texts referring to multiverse theory.

Of course, multiverse theory is highly controversial anyway, and there's certainly no evidence that there's seven universes. If it's true there would be a ridiculously huge number. So even if we accept the ridiculous premise that the Quran was actually referring to seven "universes" instead of the seven "heavens" that everyone in their time referred to using the same language, it's still wrong.
Reply

Ali_Cena
01-04-2009, 06:13 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-_level_II.svg
you should check this out, scientists claim that if the theory is correct, then thiwer would be 7 universe(and then you say this is a ridiculese amount), count them up.

second you claim all this nonsense about "popular belifes" this that, withouth any sources, its just like me saying "blah blah blah", any old fool can say this and that. second off. what ever theory big bang mulltiverse bubble, it doesnt matter. this thread is about; well you can read the title.

peace.
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
Introns and exons does not get ejected for "no apparent reason", they get ejected because they happen to be spliced that way when translated. Some of them serve a purpose, others are just junk-code which doesn't confer any negative traits onto its host and is thus exempt from natural selection.
Indeed, there is a reason why they happen.. but why is natural selection the answer? for instance where is natural selection for trinucleotide repeat expansion disorders?Fragile -X syndrome, Huntington's dz, Kennedy disease, polyglutamine repeat disorders? can you reconcile for us why 'natural selection' allows unfavorable traits to continue, further get worst with each successive generation..?

From inorganic compunds to the sodium potassium pump, ask an evolutionary biologist or attend a class, you can't honestly expect me to elaborate on the whole process in a forum as it's a topic you can write thick books about. I mean look at this:

Sure I can you you, why can't I? you have said it is 'fairly simple', I expect that you are able to gauge that 'fairly simple' I already have my doctorate, both my B.S and M.S were in molecular biology.. there is nothing in biology that I have come across that covers the evolution of inroganic compounds all the way to modern life.. If you make an assertion and expect others to follow in your path, I expect that you are able to back it up?.. copying and pasting a photo for me of any energy harnessing pathways does so little to amuse me, I suspect it does nothing for anyone else.. do you want to discuss the image you posted so that it actually has some relevance to the purposes of this topic?
or are we simply sharing the pic du jour? hey look everybody
a pic of cholesterol synthesis for those of you who didn't know such a thing existed.. hurrrraahhh



That's "just" how a late subproduct of sugar is oxidated in order to make a compound that'll later be made into energy in an equally complex manner. You want me to explain not only how that (and a million other things like that) works, but also how it came to be that way, in a FORUM?!
aha.. maybe we can add spice to the game, and ask you without a cut and paste to stick any amino to Krebs intermediate since you are so dexterous with science *wink*

I have enjoyed organic chemistry classes as much as the next guy, but even the most brilliant of minds way beyond the hilarity of your usage of fifth grade biology to more complex synthetic methods and physical Organic Chemistry still don't echo your brand of 'science'.. I suggest if you have something of substance to impart on the matter that you actually share it?

I'm not saying it's impossible, simply that it isn't feasible.
? what isn't feasible or impossible? what are you talking about?
Reply

Hamayun
01-04-2009, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Guys, I really recommend just ignoring Skye. I feel like having discussions with her legitimizes her kind of hateful and condescending posting style. There are plenty of other Muslims on here who are willing to have more respectful and open-minded discussions.
I quite like reading Sister Skye's posts. I don't think you should be passing judgement in this way. I don't see anything offensive in her posts.
Reply

Chuck
01-04-2009, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
This is "multiverse" hypothesis, which simply pushes the goalpost back. The same problem arises when you get to the earliest "universe" from which our universe eventually emerged from.

So my point still stands.
You said there is no such thing before big bang, which contradicts new observations... read. Previously, multi-verse was only theoretical without any observational evidence, but not any more. The main point is scientists are discovering ways to look beyond big bang even as signature of pre-big-bang event. In short, you were wrong.
Reply

tetsujin
01-04-2009, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Swinburne concerns me as much as Hume, perhaps you've missed the point entirely which is your quote of a school of thought reduces you to the very thing you appear to despise. I find both schools of thoughts flawed, or perhaps I should say I found my niche in something else all together!
Do you ever have a point to make, or do you enjoy peddling snake oil? What do I appear to despise?

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I have no idea of the relevance of any theory whether I personally accept it or not to do with God's existence or nonexistence?.. Science is limited to science.. You have any unspecified thing and work to explain it preferably by setting some standards and variables.. the more variables the more complex the formula.. and from where I am standing, we are in a very complex universe with most variables unaccounted for!
Science is limited to facutal claims. If any theory makes a factual claim it must be tested.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
have a great evening
Thank you, I did.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Do you ever have a point to make, or do you enjoy peddling snake oil? What do I appear to despise?
What is an atheist doing on an Islamic forum?


Science is limited to facutal claims.
indeed, so why do the lot of you enjoy 'peddling' as you say pipe dreams that can't be proven with factual science?


Thank you, I did.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Good for you!
Reply

Chuck
01-04-2009, 07:23 PM
Big bang was controverial, the idea of big bang did not sit well with atheists at that time, but observational evidence after another affirmed big bang model that universe started at some point in time as opposed to always existed. Now, since nothing can be done to go against big bang theory, although some people still believe big bang theory is a hoax, so they picked up 2 arguments to replace big bang theory (1) big bang came out of nothing (2) universe out side our universe must have always existed even if our universe wasn't.

Initial opposition to big bang:
Running the clock backwards led to a disturbing conclusion. There must have been an instant in the distant past - that day without a yesterday - when everything in the universe exploded into being out of a single point in space. The evidence was pointing towards a Big Bang. A moment of creation.

But the theory was controversial. The scientific establishment believed in an eternal universe, and many cosmologists were reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of divine creation. Hence, Fred Hoyle proposed an alternative Steady State model in which the universe was both expanding and eternal. However, even though Hoyle was an opponent of the Big Bang theory, it was he who christened the theory, referring to it disdainfully in a radio broadcast as "this 'Big Bang' idea". The name stuck, and so did Hoyle's opposition to the theory.

The stage was set for a major battle between the two camps – Big Bang versus Steady State. It would take the rest of the twentieth century to resolve the conflict, with both sides desperately searching for evidence to shore up their own theory and crush the opposition. The battle for cosmic truth would involve politics, religion, bitter disputes, nuclear physics, satellites, telescopes, a supposed echo from the Big Bang, and remarkable serendipity, resulting in one of the greatest adventures in the history of science.

http://www.simonsingh.net/Big_Bang.html
Reply

alcurad
01-04-2009, 09:08 PM
yet another thread boils down to whether you believe in the creator or not, perhaps we can also focus on what is being said rather than the speaker's intentions or personality..
as it were, no side can provide 'scientific' evidence for the existence or non-existence of god, so it's a matter of personal belief.
the original question was who created god, well who created the universe then if there were no creator? it came by due to....-fill in the blank-

(وَإِنَّا أَوْ إِيَّاكُمْ لَعَلَى هُدًى أَوْ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ)
Reply

Trumble
01-04-2009, 09:13 PM
Chuck,

The author is incorrect. Hoyle's (and others) coming up with the Steady State theory had nothing to do with being "reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of divine creation". That all kicked off some years later when the Pope gave the Big Bang idea that association at which point, almost by default, the Steady State theory became (loosely) associated with an atheist perspective.

Many accepted the Steady State theory, atheist or not, because it addressed certain problems that did present the Big Bang theory with 'issues', not the least of which were (obviously flawed, as we know now) calculations that showed that, if the Big Bang were true, the age of the universe was actually less than the known age of the solar system!
Reply

Chuck
01-04-2009, 10:17 PM
The author is incorrect. Hoyle's (and others) coming up with the Steady State theory had nothing to do with being "reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of divine creation"
That author is a science journalist, and he is right. For people who are familiar with the comments of scientists at that time, they know it was one of the objections. Following documentary from BBC has some footage: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...27161142211875

But there were theists too that were favoring steady state because scientific community used to assume that universe always existed which was based on Aristotle's view of origins of Universe I presume.
Reply

Ibnkhatab
01-04-2009, 10:30 PM
Ask them who created earth and then ask who created this and this and that, they wont have an answer!!
Reply

Chuck
01-04-2009, 10:47 PM
This is out of Hawkings lecture:
The idea that the universe had a specific time of origin has been philosophically resisted by some very distinguished scientists. We could begin with Arthur Eddington, who experimentally confirmed Einstein's general theory of relativity in 1919. He stated a dozen years later: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning to the present order is repugnant to me and I should like to find a genuine loophole." He later said, "We must allow evolution an infinite amount of time to get started."

Albert Einstein's reaction to the consequences of his own general theory of relativity appear to acknowledge the threat of an encounter with God. Through the equations of general relativity, we can trace the origin of the universe backward in time to some sort of a beginning. However, before publishing his cosmological inferences, Einstein introduced a cosmological constant, a "fudge factor," to yield a static model for the universe. Einstein later considered this to be the greatest blunder of his scientific career.

Einstein ultimately gave grudging acceptance to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power." But he never did accept the reality of a personal God.

Why such resistance to the idea of a definite beginning of the universe? It goes right back to that first argument, the cosmological argument: (a) Everything that begins to exist must have a cause; (b) If the universe began to exist, then (c) the universe must have a cause. You can see the direction in which this argument is flowing--a direction of discomfort to some physicists.

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html
Reply

tetsujin
01-05-2009, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
This is out of Hawkings lecture:
format_quote Originally Posted by leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html
Dr. "Fritz" Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize and was recently cited as the third most quoted chemist in the world. "The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it!' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." --U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 23, 1991.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(This article is a transcript of a lecture Dr. Schaefer presented at the University of colorado in the spring of 1994, sponsored by Christian Leadership and other campus ministries. Over 500 students and professors were present.)

Stephen Hawking's bestseller A Brief History of Time is the most popular book about cosmology ever written. The questions cosmology addresses are scientifically and theologically profound. Hawking's book covers both of these implications.

....

That was at the very top of the page you linked. The following (your reference) is a contiguous passage trasncribed from Dr. Schaefer's lecture:

The idea that the universe had a specific time of origin has been philosophically resisted by some very distinguished scientists. We could begin with Arthur Eddington, who experimentally confirmed Einstein's general theory of relativity in 1919. He stated a dozen years later: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning to the present order is repugnant to me and I should like to find a genuine loophole." He later said, "We must allow evolution an infinite amount of time to get started."

Albert Einstein's reaction to the consequences of his own general theory of relativity appear to acknowledge the threat of an encounter with God. Through the equations of general relativity, we can trace the origin of the universe backward in time to some sort of a beginning. However, before publishing his cosmological inferences, Einstein introduced a cosmological constant, a "fudge factor," to yield a static model for the universe. Einstein later considered this to be the greatest blunder of his scientific career.

Einstein ultimately gave grudging acceptance to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power." But he never did accept the reality of a personal God.

Why such resistance to the idea of a definite beginning of the universe? It goes right back to that first argument, the cosmological argument: (a) Everything that begins to exist must have a cause; (b) If the universe began to exist, then (c) the universe must have a cause. You can see the direction in which this argument is flowing--a direction of discomfort to some physicists.
Both Stephen Hawking and, his contemporary, Roger Penrose have revised earlier conclusion regarding the singularity of the beginning of the universe in light of the theory of atomic processes, quantum mechanics.
What you are left with is a Big bang theory that only holds true where General Relativity can play a hand. GR breaks down at times less than the Planck time and at distances less than the Planck length and therefore general relativity cannot be used to imply a singularity of the creation of the universe.

To quote "A Brief History of Time",

"... a joint paper by Penrose and myself in 1970, which at last proved that there must have been a big bang singularity provided only that general relativity is correct and the universe contains as much matter as we observe. There was a lot of opposition to our work, partly from the Russians because of their Marxist belief in scientific determinism, and partly from people who felt that the whole idea of singularities was repugnant and spoiled the beauty of Einstein's theory. However, one cannot really argue with a mathematical theorem. So in the end our work became generally accepted and nowadays nearly everyone assumes that the universe started with a big bang singularity. It is perhaps ironic that, having changed my mind, I am now trying to convince other physicists that there was in fact no singularity at the beginning of the universe - as we shall see later, it can disappear once quantum effects are taken into account." Chapter 3: The Expanding Universe, page 50 in the original book (1988), page 53 in the tenth anniversary edition

This was written 20 years ago, a cursory look at the current acceptable model of the Big Bang theory acknowledges the breakdown of GR due to mathematical singularities (not physical/cosmological singularities)

Unfortunately for mainstream theologies, quantum mechanics is not friendly with personal gods.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

Unfortunately for mainstream theologies, quantum mechanics is not friendly with personal gods.


Sincerely,

Faysal
seems a little unorthodox to make that last statement without expansion, just for the rest of us who are untutored and uncouth?
I have taken the liberty to find a 'quantum physics for dummies'.. which you are free to disagree with, provided that it is academically sourced..

What is quantum mechanics?

"The quantum is the greatest mystery we've got. Never in my life was I more up a tree than today," John Wheeler.







Quantum theory is bizarre. In order to try and understand it we need to forget everything we know about cause and effect, reality, certainty, and much else besides. This is a different world, it has its own rules, rules of probability that make no sense in our everyday world. Richard Feynman, the greatest physicist of his generation, said of quantum theory

'It is impossible, absolutely impossible to explain it in any classical way'.

Quantum theory is much more than just bizarre, it is also without doubt the most amazing theory in existence. If after reading this section you are not totally amazed by it, then the fault will be mine, for I will have failed to reveal to you its deep underlying significance. This theory is not just about experiments and equations, it reveals something extraordinary about our very understanding of what constitutes reality.

This is a very complex theory, and in order to fully do it justice it would require at least a fair sized book. However, in order to grasp the basic principles involved it will suffice to study just three key experiments. The three experiments are generally known as: the 'Double Slit Experiment', Schrödinger's 'Cat-in-the-Box Experiment' and the 'EPR Paradox'.

We will start with the famous double slit experiment as it demonstrates beautifully the central mystery of quantum theory. Quantum theory however, needs some introduction before we get too involved in the experiment.

The standard explanation of what takes place at the quantum level is known as the Copenhagen Interpretation. This is because much of the pioneering work was carried out by the Danish physicist Niels Bohr, who worked in Copenhagen. Quantum theory attempts to describe the behaviour of very small objects, generally speaking the size of atoms or smaller, in much the same way as relativity describes the laws of larger everyday objects. We find it necessary to have two sets of rules because particles do not behave in the same way as larger everyday objects, such as billiard balls. We can, for example, say precisely where a billiard ball is, what it is doing, and what it is about to do. The same cannot be said for particles. They are, quite literally, a law unto themselves, and why this should be so is a source of much debate. The classic experiment to illustrate this is the famous double slit experiment, originally devised to determine if light travels as waves or particles. Feynman said of it:

'Any other situation in quantum mechanics, it turns out, can always be explained by saying, "You remember the case of the experiment with the two holes? It's the same thing."'

The double slit experiment.

If light travels as particles we can imagine particles of light (photons) as bullets fired from a rifle. Imagine a brick wall with two holes in it, each the same size and large enough to fire bullets through, with a second wall behind where the bullets will strike. After firing a few rounds you would expect to see on the second wall two clusters of hits in line with the two holes. This is of course precisely what you get with bullets, so if we get the same result with photons we can say they are particles.

Now imagine that instead of particles, that light travels as a wave, we can replicate that with a water tank. As the wave spreads out from its source it would reach both holes at the same time and each hole would then act as a new source. Waves would then spread out again from each of the holes, exactly in step, or in phase, and as the waves moved forward, spreading as they go, they would eventually interfere with one another. Where both waves are lifting the water surface upward, we get a more pronounced crest; where one wave is trying to create a crest and the other is trying to create a trough the two cancel out and the water level is undisturbed. The effects are called constructive and destructive interference.

If we carried out this procedure with light instead of water, and if light travels as waves, then the pattern on the second wall would appear as an interference pattern of alternate dark and light bands across the wall. Particles, on the other hand, would produce two separate areas of light (where the bullets would hit). This experiment has in fact been carried out many, many times, with the same results every time, and the results are nothing less than amazing.






When the experiment is set up as shown in the above diagram, with both slits open, the resulting interference pattern clearly shows that light behaves as a wave. Now if that was all there was to it we could all fold up our tents and go home happy in the knowledge that light travels as a wave; but there is much more to it than that. This is where the word 'weird' can become over-used.

If the experiment is set up to fire individual photons, so that only one photon at a time goes through the set up, we would not expect the same interference pattern to build up; we would surely expect that a single photon would only go through one hole or another, it cannot go through both at the same time and create an interference pattern. So what happens?

If we wait until enough individual photons have passed through to build up a pattern - and this takes millions of photons - we do not get two clusters opposite the two holes, we get the same interference pattern! It is as if each individual photon 'knows' that both holes are open and gives that result. Each individual photon, passing through the set up will place itself on the wall in such a position that when enough have passed through they have collectively built up an interference pattern, when there cannot possibly be any interference!

If we repeat the experiment, this time with only one hole open, the individual photons behave themselves and all cluster round a point on the detector screen behind the open hole, just as you would expect. However, as soon as the second hole is opened they again immediately start to form an interference pattern. An individual photon passing through one of the holes is not only aware of the other hole, but also aware of whether or not it is open!

We could try peeking, to see which hole the photon goes through, and to see if it goes through both holes at once, or if half a photon goes through each hole. When the experiment is carried out, and detectors are placed at the holes to record the passage of electrons through each of the holes, the result is even more bizarre. Imagine an arrangement that records which hole a photon goes through but lets it pass on its way to the detector screen. Now the photons behave like normal, self respecting everyday particles. We always see a photon at one hole or the other, never both at once, and now the pattern that builds up on the detector screen is exactly equivalent to the pattern for bullets, with no trace of interference. As if that was not bad enough, it gets even worse! We do not need place detectors at both holes, we can get the same result by watching just one hole. If a photon passes through a hole that does not have a detector, it not only knows if the other hole is open or not, it knows if the other hole is being observed! If there is no detector at the other hole as well as the one it is passing through, it will produce an interference pattern, otherwise it will act as a particle. When we are watching the holes we can't catch out the photon going through both at once, it will only go through one. When we are not watching it will go through both at the same time! There is no clearer example of the interaction of the observer with the experiment. When we try to look at the spread-out photon wave, it collapses into a definite particle, but when we are not looking it keeps its options open.

What the double slit experiment demonstrates is this: Each photon starts out as a single photon - a particle - and arrives at the detector as a particle, but appears to have gone through both holes at once, interfered with itself, and worked out just where to place itself on the detector to make its own small contribution to the overall interference pattern. This behaviour raises a number of significant problems! Does the photon go through both holes at the same time? How does a photon go through both holes at the same time? How does it know where to place itself on the detector to form part of the overall pattern? Why don't all the photons follow the same path and end up in the same place?

As a possible explanation it could perhaps be said that this is just one more example of the extraordinary nature of light, after all it does have some very unusual properties. Photons have no rest mass for example, a very odd property! Light is also unique in that it always travels at the same speed. However you move, and however the light source moves, when you measure the speed of light you always come up with the same answer. By way of comparison, two cars approaching each other and each having a speed of 30 mph will be approaching each other at a speed of 60 mph. Two light beams, both travelling of course at the speed of light, will be approaching each other at the speed of light, not twice the speed of light. Perhaps the weird behaviour of photons in the experiment is due to the weird nature of light. Unfortunately further experiments have demonstrated that this is not the case. Electrons have been used instead of photons, and they not only have mass, they have an electric charge, and furthermore they move at different speeds depending on circumstances, like normal everyday objects. The double slit experiments still gives the same result using electrons as it does using photons; electrons also alter their behaviour depending on whether or not they are being observed. The experiment has even been performed using atoms, again with the same result, and atoms are large enough to be individually photographed, they are very real solid objects. This odd behaviour of particles is a very real phenomenon.

The double slit experiment is not simply an oddball theory that has no application in the real world. This strange behaviour of particles lies at the very heart of our understanding of the physical properties of the world. Quantum theory is used in many applications, including television and computers, and even explains the nuclear processes taking place inside stars.

One possible explanation for quantum weirdness is a theory concerning the nature of the wave that is passing through the experiment. The key concept of the theory, which forms a central part of the Copenhagen Interpretation, is known as the 'collapse of the wave function'. The theory seeks to explain how an entity such as a photon or an electron, could 'travel as a wave but arrive as a particle'. According to the theory, what is passing through the experiment is not a material wave at all, but is a 'probability wave'. In other words, the particle does not have a definite location, but has a probability of being here or there, or somewhere else entirely. Some locations will be more probable than others, such as the light areas in the interference pattern for example, and some will be less probable, such as in the dark areas. In this theory, an electron that is not being observed does not exist as a particle at all, but has a wave-like property covering the areas of probability where it could be found. Once the electron is observed, the wave function collapses and the electron becomes a particle. This theory rather neatly explains the behaviour of the particles in the double slit experiment. When we are not looking at the particle, the probability wave, of even a single particle, is spread out and will pass through both slits at the same time and arrive at the detector as a wave showing an interference pattern. When we observe the electron by placing detectors at the slits, it is forced into revealing its location which causes the probability wave to collapse into a particle. If the theory is correct, its implications are staggering. What it suggests is that nothing is real until it has been observed!

Nothing is real until it has been observed! This clearly needs thinking about. Are we really saying that in the 'real' world - outside of the laboratory - that until a thing has been observed it doesn't exist? This is precisely what the Copenhagen Interpretation is telling us about reality. This has caused some very well respected cosmologists (Stephen Hawking for one) to worry that this implies that there must actually be something 'outside' the universe to look at the universe as a whole and collapse its overall wave function. John Wheeler puts forward an argument that it is only the presence of conscious observers, in the form of ourselves, that has collapsed the wave function and made the universe exist. If we take this to be true, then the universe only exists because we are looking at it. As this is heading into very deep water I think we will have to leave it there and move on to the next experiment.



Schrödinger 's 'Cat-in-the-Box Experiment'

According to the Copenhagen Interpretation, the probability wave of an electron requires the act of observation by a conscious observer to collapse it into a definite particle, and thus have a definite location. We can imagine a closed box containing just a single electron. Now until someone looks in the box, the probability wave associated with the electron will fill the box uniformly, thus giving an equal probability of finding the electron anywhere inside the box. If a partition is introduced into the middle of the box that divides it into two equal boxes, still without anyone looking inside, then common sense tells us that the electron must be in one side of the box or the other. But this is not the case according to the Copenhagen Interpretation; that says that the probability wave is still evenly distributed across both half-boxes. This means that there is still a 50:50 chance of finding the electron in either side of the box. When somebody looks into the box the wave will then collapse and the electron will be noticed in one half of the box or the other, but it will only at the moment of observation 'decide' which half it will be in. At the same time the probability wave in the other half of the box vanishes. If the box is then closed up again, and the electron no longer observed, its probability wave will again spread out to fill the half box, but cannot spread back into the other half of the box that was empty.

The way that a quantum wave moves is described by Erwin Schrödinger's wave equation and describes the probability for finding a photon, or electron, at a particular place. Schrödinger did not however, go along with the 'collapse of the wave function' theory, he thought it was a nonsense, and designed 'thought experiments' to prove his point. In an attempt to demonstrate the foolishness - as he saw it - of quantum theory, Schrödinger devised the cat-in-a-box thought experiment.

In Schrödinger 's original thought experiment he used radioactive decay because that also obeys the rules of probability. We however, shall use our box with the partition and electron again, as we are now familiar with it.

Imagine we have our box with the partition in place, and the electron's probability wave evenly spread between both halves of the box. We have now added a device that will, at a given time, automatically open up one half of the box to the room. There is a 50:50 chance that when opened the box will contain the electron that is now free to enter the room. The room is sealed and has no windows that would allow any outside observations to be made. Inside the sealed room there is a cat, a container of poisonous gas, and an electron detector. The experiment is so designed that if the electron detector detects an electron it will release the poisonous gas into the room, which would prove very unfortunate for the poor cat. If, on the other hand, that half of the box does not contain the electron, the poisonous gas will not be released into the room and our cat, henceforth known as Lucky, will continue to enjoy good health, providing it keeps away from busy roads.

Taking a common sense view of the situation, we would say that when the experiment has run its course, and an observer enters the room, they will find the cat either dead or alive. But we already know enough about quantum theory to realise that common sense doesn't apply here, and instead we have to turn to the Copenhagen Interpretation for an explanation.

According to the Copenhagen Interpretation, when the lid of one half of the box is opened, it is not an electron, or not as the case may be, that is released into the room, but the probability wave of the electron as it has not yet been observed. This raises the question of whether or not the cat can be regarded as a conscious observer. If it can be then where do we draw the line? Would a fly or an ant count? How about a bacterium? As this is again getting into rather deep and murky water, we will skip over this problem and continue with our experiment, otherwise we run the risk of becoming seriously side-tracked. So the probability wave spreads into the room, not an electron (or no electron). The electron detector is itself composed of microscopic entities of the quantum world (atoms, particles and so on) and the interaction of the electron with it would take place at this level, so the detector is also subject to the quantum rules of probability. Taking this view, the wave function of the whole system will not collapse until a conscious observer enters the room. At that moment the electron 'decides' whether it is inside the box or in the room, the detector 'decides' whether it has detected an electron or not, and the cat 'decides' whether it is dead or alive. Until that moment, according to the Copenhagen Interpretation, the cat is not either dead or alive, it describes the situation as a 'superposition of states'. Only the act of observation will cause it to become one or the other. Schrödinger described the situation as 'having in it the living and the dead cat mixed or smeared out in equal parts.' The Copenhagen Interpretation does not allow for the room to actually contain a cat that is both dead and alive at the same time, or a cat that is neither dead nor alive, suspended in limbo. But contains either a dead cat or a live cat, until someone looks, and it is then that the actual reality of the situation is determined.

Cat lovers please note. This experiment has never been carried out, and never will be. This is not only because it would be a very cruel thing to do, but because it wouldn't prove anything. An observer upon entering the room would find either a dead cat or a living one, but could not observe what processes preceded this event. Any previous observation would of course defeat the object of the experiment.

The problems highlighted by the cat-in-a-box experiment raise some very deep questions. What for example are the requirements needed to qualify as a 'conscious observer'? Do the probability waves of particles spread out again when not observed and particles somehow become less 'real', as described by the Copenhagen Interpretation? Does the universe exist only because we are here to observe it? Could a cat really be in a 'superposition of states', either dead or alive until the moment of observation? This goes entirely against all our common sense experience of life, we would naturally conclude upon finding the cat alive that it had 'obviously' been alive all the time. Quantum theory is telling us that we could be very wrong in our thinking regarding what reality really is.

Quantum theory has yet another surprise in store for us, and this time it's not simply another bizarre phenomenon that challenges our common sense. This time it contradicts one of the central principles of Einstein's theory of relativity, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. As you can imagine, Einstein was not amused.



The EPR Paradox.

The experiment is so named because it was a thought experiment devised by Einstein, Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen. As with Schrödinger's cat-in-the-box experiment, its purpose was to expose the 'foolishness' of the Copenhagen Interpretation. The experiment focuses on the phenomenon of quantum theory known as 'non-locality', which concerns communication between particles. A pair of protons, for example, associated with one another in a configuration called the singlet state will always have a total angular momentum of zero, as they each have equal and opposite amounts of spin. Just as we have seen in the other experiments, the protons will not collapse their probability wave and 'decide' which spin to adopt, until they have been observed. If you measure the spin of one proton, according to quantum theory, the other proton instantly 'knows' and adopts the opposite spin. So far so good, we have come to expect this sort of behaviour from particles, so what is the problem with this particular experiment?

It is possible, and has been carried out in laboratory tests over a short distance, to split the particles apart and send them in opposite directions and then measure one of them for spin. The instant it is measured, and the spin determined, the other particle adopts the opposite spin. The time interval is zero, the event takes place instantaneously, even though the particles are separated, and theoretically would still do so even if they were separated by a distance measured in light years. This is what upset Einstein, the implication that particles could communicate at faster than light speed, as it is impossible for this to happen according to Einstein's theory of relativity.

At the time this thought experiment was proposed, in the early 1930's, just about the time of Schrödinger's cat-in-the-box thought experiment, it was not actually possible to physically carry out the experiment. Einstein did not live to see it turned into practical reality, which is probably just as well in light of the results produced. This experiment has now actually been carried out over a distance of 10 kilometres and confirmed as correct. Something here is taking place at faster than light speed, although exactly what seems to be a matter of some debate. Regrettably, due to its very nature, no meaningful communication could be made using such a device. Whether or not it will ever have any useful application remains to be seen, but that is not the point. The point is the experiment has proved Einstein wrong, faster than light speed, at least in the quantum world, is a reality. However, in classical physics - at sizes above that of atoms - relativity still remains unchallenged, nothing has been detected at faster than light speed.

As I said at the outset of this section, these three experiments highlight the basic principles involved in quantum theory. I also said they would amaze you, and I hope that you feel that I have kept my word. If you are not amazed by quantum theory, then blame me, for the theory is truly amazing and any disappointment you may have with it can only be due to my inability to do the theory justice.

One last thing you need to know about quantum theory, and that is Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Heisenberg said that the electron was a particle, but a particle which yields only limited information. It is possible to specify where an electron is at a given moment, but we cannot then impose on it a specific speed and direction at the setting-off. Or conversely, if you fire it at a known speed in a certain direction, then you are unable to specify exactly what its starting-point is - or its end-point. The information that an electron carries is limited in its totally. That is, for instance, its speed and its position fit together in such a way that they are confined by the tolerance of the quantum.

The principle of Uncertainty fixed once for all the realisation that all knowledge is limited, that there is no such thing as absolute certainty.



What conclusions can we draw from these experiments?

We need to be very careful in drawing any conclusions from the results of these experiments. All we can say with any confidence is that if we set up the apparatus in a certain way it will produce a certain result. How we interpret those results, the meanings that we attach to them, is nothing more than our way of attempting to make sense of them, and need have no relationship at all to the actual reality of the situation. To imagine that a probability wave passes through both slits in the double slit experiment helps us to understand what may be happening, but it is in fact nothing more than proposing an idea that meets the criteria of what has been observed; there may be no such thing as a probability wave. It may be the case that we are completely missing some fundamental property of particles, a property that as yet remains undetected by our equipment and experiments. There may be things going on that we are completely unaware of.

What quantum mechanics tell us is that nothing is real and that we cannot say anything about what things are doing when we are not looking at them. In the world of quantum mechanics, the laws of physics that are familiar from the everyday world no longer work. Instead, events are governed by probabilities. Einstein was so disgusted by the whole notion that he made his famous remark, "Quantum mechanics is very impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory produces a good deal but hardly brings us closer to the secrets of the Old One. I am at all events convinced that He does not play dice".



What do I think?

It seems illogical that we need two completely different laws to explain the behaviour of objects, dependent on how large or small the object is. Why is it that the laws of cause and effect, that work so well in the everyday world, breakdown in the world of the very small, when everything in the everyday world is made up of the very small?

It just does not make any sense, but like it or not, until a theoretical physicist comes up with a theory that incorporates both Quantum Mechanics and Relativity we just have to admit that we do not really know what is going on. However, one thing I am absolutely clear on is that an electron, or photon, doesn't 'know' anything, anymore than a frozen pea does. When you remove a frozen pea from the freezer and place it in a warm room you do not gasp in amazement when it defrosts and ask how did it 'know' to defrost. You do not try and trick it into not defrosting by leaving it in the freezer and turning off the freezer. This is of course because we understand the laws of thermodynamics. Particles do not 'know ' anything!

When physicists ask the question, 'how does a particle 'know' something'? they are of course using the term loosely. What they are really asking is 'what are the forces acting upon the particle that we have not detected? What interactions are taking place that we have not detected?'

That is the problem. Something is going on at a level that we are completely unaware of. However, the idea of probability waves as an explanation is nothing more than an attempt to describe what is observed in the quantum world by the Copenhagen Interpretation, and is of course a purely theoretical concept.

It may be possible that we need to develop a new form of logic to be able to describe what is happening at the quantum level. It may be that it is not enough to say that a statement is either true or false, we may have to introduce a three-valued quantum logic which allows the additional status of 'undecided'. This would mean that a statement that is not true need not be false.


Links to other sites on quantum mechanics:

For a more detailed explanation The Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics

and on the 'double-slit' experiment Wheeler's Delayed-Choice Experiment

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Quantum%20mechanics.htm

my primitive understanding leads me to the conclusion that in 'Quantum mechanics' the entire universe is actually a series of probabilities?
again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, and with that conclusion further elaborate on how these theories which from my brief and limited understanding seems to have scientists at odds; actually disproves as you put it 'any personal God'?


cheers
Reply

Trumble
01-05-2009, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
That author is a science journalist, and he is right. For people who are familiar with the comments of scientists at that time, they know it was one of the objections.
I don't care what he is, he is wrong. The claim being made is not that it was an 'objection', it is that Fred Hoyle devised the Steady State because he "was reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of divine creation". That is untrue.
Reply

tetsujin
01-05-2009, 06:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
seems a little unorthodox to make that last statement without expansion, just for the rest of us who are untutored and uncouth?
I have taken the liberty to find a 'quantum physics for dummies'.. which you are free to disagree with, provided that it is academically sourced.. http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Quantum%20mechanics.htm

Thank you for copying and pasting the entire contents of that web page, it'll save headaches for anyone else reading this thread as the other webpage has an unfortunate backdrop.

I could not find Mr. Keith Mayes own academic qualifications, only that he's an amateur astronomer, but there isn't much to disagree with. The classic setup for Schrodinger's Cat is typically different, but the problem defined is the same.

The passage you highlighted,

"We need to be very careful in drawing any conclusions from the results of these experiments. All we can say with any confidence is that if we set up the apparatus in a certain way it will produce a certain result. How we interpret those results, the meanings that we attach to them, is nothing more than our way of attempting to make sense of them, and need have no relationship at all to the actual reality of the situation.",

is tautological as rhetoric and propositional logic, and therefore not worth mentioning out of respect for Mr. Keith Mayes.


If you're interested in seeing the effects of quantum mechanics from past experiments, you can reproduce them yourself in the following link:

Visual Quantum Mechanics, Physics Education Research Group, Kansas State University
Shockwave Plugin is required

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
my primitive understanding leads me to the conclusion that in 'Quantum mechanics' the entire universe is actually a series of probabilities?
again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, and with that conclusion further elaborate on how these theories which from my brief and limited understanding seems to have scientists at odds; actually disproves as you put it 'any personal God'?
Unfortunately the author of your reference gave little mention to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and it's not a complete definition.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/

In plain English:
format_quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that the values of certain pairs of conjugate variables (position and momentum, for instance) cannot both be known with arbitrary precision. That is, the more precisely one variable is known, the less precisely the other is known. This is not a statement about the limitations of a researcher's ability to measure particular quantities of a system, but rather about the nature of the system itself.
It is something that troubled Einstein, which led to the often misused quotation "That God would choose to play dice with the world is something I cannot believe."

Regardless of whether Einstein could believe it, we are forced to use probabilistic causation; events seem to occur without any observable cause. It is certainly not chaotic. The applications of quantum mechanics are powerful and precise and scientists do not dispute the results.

The problem lies in interpreting the measurements of a world somehow restricted by the uncertainty principle. Quantum mechanical theories are not illogical, just quite a shock when you’ve accepted classical physics for the macroscopic world and attempt to apply the same rules to the sub atomic world. As Newtonian laws were modified in the 20th century, we’ll likely come up with some way to reconcile quantum mechanical theory in the 21st century.

To give you an example, how do we use radar or sonar technology in our day to day life?
An electromagnetic wave is generated and released
We presume that it will come into contact with another object and return to us
If a detectable electromagnetic wave returns to us, we can calculate the amount of time that lapsed from the point of trigger to the point when it returned. We can calculate the distance between us and that object, because we already know the speed of the electromagnetic wave.
Repeat the process and we can get the speed, and then acceleration.
With sub atomic particles, once we have contacted the particle in order to retrieve information, we have affected either its velocity or position. A photon, which has no rest mass, could be absorbed by an electron, jump to a higher energy states, and at no predetermined point in time it will release a photon, and in the mean time we have affected either the velocity or position before we even get our data.

By the way, I did not say it disproves any personal god. You may construct whatever god you wish and I couldn’t disprove any of them scientifically. Mainstream theology typically describes an interventionist god. Probabilistic causation becomes a problem when we begin discussing god’s omnipotence, or his benevolence given his omniscience whether or not he is omnipotent, efficacy of prayer beyond a placebo effect, and so on... But that may not interest you, depending on whether mainstream philosophical discussions preclude your school of thought.

The stability of any given state for an object is something which can be calculated probabilistically. All I have to present is that a state of nothing is unstable (1) and that in a non-boundary scenario, for the natural origin of the universe, the probability for there being something rather than nothing can be calculated to be over 60% (2). Even when we must define a boundary scenario, we can postulate that since there is nothing mathematically wrong with a universe in which time as we understand it was in reverse, we can postulate a big bang which resulted in a sister universe that we cannot contact in which entropy is increasing in reverse chronological order. Conceptualize in your mind an hourglass figure with one half resulting in our big bang and the other half belonging to a sister universe (no sand required).

1) Frank Wilczek, “The Cosmic Asymmetry between Matter and Antimatter,” Scientific American 243, no 6 (1980): 82-90
2) Stenger, The Comprehensible Cosmos, supplement H

Those are the references. You may find other academic material on the same subject if those are not available.


Edit: I almost forgot.

The uncertainty principle does not apply to past events. You may already know, for example, the velocity of an electron and then find out the position. That is what most particle accelerators rely on. It means we can theoretically map the past given sufficient information about the present, but we cannot have prior knowledge of any particular event in the subatomic world.

Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 06:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Thank you for copyi-------
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
By the way, I did not say it disproves any personal god. You may construct whatever god you wish and I couldn’t disprove any of them scientifically.

Faysal
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
For mainstream theologies, quantum mechanics is not friendly with personal gods.


Sincerely,

Faysal
Thanks for all of that, I find it refreshing to learn from random blogs of course.. amidst all the flowers and adjectives that I couldn't study on my private time from credible courses, I managed to find the two statements I am looking for-- and quite possibly at odds with each other?

I usually take the antagonism of (not friendly) to denote more than meets the eyes.. possible I was reading much between the lines...

The bottom line indeed is to subscribe to whatever beliefs you are most comfortable with..

cheers
Reply

tetsujin
01-05-2009, 06:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
The bottom line indeed is to subscribe to whatever beliefs you are most comfortable with..
Some people are not satisfied by a pat on the back or a hug, or palliating philosophies.

Humans have not advanced by being comfortable with the dogmatic beliefs.

Sincerely,

Faysal
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 06:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Some people are not satisfied by pat on the back or a hug, or palliating philosophies.

Humans have not advanced by being comfortable with the dogmatic beliefs.

Sincerely,

Faysal
You are absolutely right.. Of course it depends what you mean by 'dogmatic' --which is any assertion of the unproved or unprovable!
It is troubling to desire advancement but in the process concede to the same archaic means of impressing it on the whole, even where there is contradiction in whole or in part! ..

You should indeed subscribe to the accepted account of your choosing.. let me know how well it fares in another two hundred yrs...

on an end note... and not as a reply to anything you've posted.. Islam has always favored and made compulsory the acquisition of knowledge and the advancement of science, and there is nothing 'dogmatic' about that.. but I guarantee that no science can prove what most atheists so desire from it to prove or disprove for that matter.
Reply

Chuck
01-05-2009, 08:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
This was written 20 years ago, a cursory look at the current acceptable model of the Big Bang theory acknowledges the breakdown of GR due to mathematical singularities (not physical/cosmological singularities)
And relevancy, to this discussion, of your point is?
Reply

Chuck
01-05-2009, 09:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't care what he is, he is wrong. The claim being made is not that it was an 'objection', it is that Fred Hoyle devised the Steady State because he "was reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of divine creation". That is untrue.
The author said: "The scientific establishment believed in an eternal universe, and many cosmologists were reluctant to accept a theory that smacked of divine creation" which is true.
Reply

Nerd
01-05-2009, 09:43 AM
I suppose the reason behind asking "Who created God?" is when we go about spreading Islam we tend to tell Atheist sto look at complexity of things around us (like eyes, cells etc), through which we tend to justify to them, that a God must exist in order for such complexity to come in to being.

Now the logic behind them asking "if so who created God?" is if cells or the eyes are so complex and couldn't have come to being without a God. How could God come to being without a creator (since by your logic God must be complex beyond comprehension).
Reply

Woodrow
01-05-2009, 03:26 PM
You, I and all other mortals are trapped in a solid universe that has a beginning and an end. We are stuck with a concept of time. In order to understand eternity and for the ability of Allaah(swt) to have no limits of creation or end, we need to break free of our physical concepts and just follow the simplistic thought. If something created has a creator, the creator can not have been created, for that to be, the creators has to have always been.
Reply

tetsujin
01-05-2009, 04:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
And relevancy, to this discussion, of your point is?
The relevance of my post is in direct relation to the relevance of your post.

You presented a certain world view and either made a mistake in referencing (Stephen) Hawking's lecture (which it is not), or you were refering to another "Hawkings", or you misquoted the passage in your post.

Mistakes happen, perhaps I'm mistaken, which is it?

My citation from "A Brief History of Time" is part of an attempt to explain that the mathematical singularity which exists prior to the inflationary phase of the Big Bang Theory, is insufficient to posit a physical singularity at the creation of the universe. It is a limitation of the Theory of General Relativity. To my knowledge, Stephen Hawking has not shown otherwise, nor has any other scientist. Although, you could prove me wrong.


Sincerely,


Faysal
Reply

root
01-05-2009, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You, I and all other mortals are trapped in a solid universe that has a beginning and an end.
Come again, can you please shoe me the "proof" that this universe has a beginning and also prove that it has an end....

Cheers


format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
We are stuck with a concept of time..
Oh, a concept. Who's concept exactly is this, please share with us the concept of time. Is it real or just an illusion for example, is it the same for us all? What exactly is time. That kind of thing.


format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
In order to understand eternity and for the ability of Allaah(swt) to have no limits of creation or end, we need to break free of our physical concepts and just follow the simplistic thought. If something created has a creator, the creator can not have been created, for that to be, the creators has to have always been.
What a load of tosh, this could equally be applied to the universe itself, it could easily have always been by itself and not by any divine inspiration. Your asking us to accept a premis you yourself refuse to accept. So why should we accept your premis......
Reply

al Amaanah
01-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Muslim - Book 1 - Hadith 242

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (salla Allaho 3alaihi wasallam) said: Men will continue to question one another till this is propounded: Allah created all things but who created Allah? He who found himself confronted with such a situation should say: I affirm my faith in Allah.
Reply

Chuck
01-05-2009, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
The relevance of my post is in direct relation to the relevance of your post.

You presented a certain world view and either made a mistake in referencing (Stephen) Hawking's lecture (which it is not), or you were refering to another "Hawkings", or you misquoted the passage in your post.

Mistakes happen, perhaps I'm mistaken, which is it?

My citation from "A Brief History of Time" is part of an attempt to explain that the mathematical singularity which exists prior to the inflationary phase of the Big Bang Theory, is insufficient to posit a physical singularity at the creation of the universe. It is a limitation of the Theory of General Relativity. To my knowledge, Stephen Hawking has not shown otherwise, nor has any other scientist. Although, you could prove me wrong.


Sincerely,


Faysal
I quoted the wrong lecture. Anyway, if you are following the discussion I was quoting to show that early scientists objected to to BBT because it was invoking creation. As for POS, GR breaks down at POS, but that doesn't affect that universe started from hot and dense matter from a single point in time, even hawking believes that. Quote of Hawking is not arguing this, but he arguing whether there was singularity before inflation of universe or not, which is entirely different topic. Anyway, seems like he has changed his mind, this from his later lecture:
The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php?...d=62&Itemid=57
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Your asking us to accept a premis you yourself refuse to accept. So why should we accept your premis......
Just to clarify... No one is telling you to accept anything. You came on this forum... we did not come looking for you.

You come here , post sarcastic replies to the moderators and then have the cheek to make it look like we came preaching to you???
Reply

Ali_Cena
01-05-2009, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Come again, can you please shoe me the "proof" that this universe has a beginning
LOL hi root, just wanted to say:

how old is the universe?
becuase if it has an age, then it has a beginning lol lets say for example the universe is 4billion years old, then it had a beginning which was 4billion years ago. lol

so how old is the universe?
Reply

Woodrow
01-05-2009, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Come again, can you please shoe me the "proof" that this universe has a beginning and also prove that it has an end....
Depends on what you consider proof. One astronomical proof is the fact it is dark at night. Why is it dark? Stop and think if the universe had always existed, enough time has elapsed so that every light source would now permeate the entire universe and light would be evenly distributes to every point. There would be no darkness it would be like we were in the center of a fluorescent lamp. In the world of sub atomic particles it has been shown that the speed of electrons in atoms is slowing. at some point in the futre if matter lasts that long motion will cease at which time all temperature will reach absolute zero at which point matter ceases to exist.

Than we have the visual evidence of nova, black holes etc all of which depict an end of matter.

I believe you have studied enough physics and astronomy to agree there is ample prove that the universe has a measurable age. We may disagree as to that age, but there is a measurable age.

Cheers
Cheers back, my old resident nemisis




Oh, a concept. Who's concept exactly is this, please share with us the concept of time. Is it real or just an illusion for example, is it the same for us all? What exactly is time. That kind of thing.
Thsi will differ among scientists, philosophers and theologians. But I believe the most widely accepted concept of time is it is the relationship of the movement of one object to another object. The emotional concept of time is a psychological phenomenae probably unique to sapient beings.





What a load of tosh, this could equally be applied to the universe itself, it could easily have always been by itself and not by any divine inspiration. Your asking us to accept a premis you yourself refuse to accept. So why should we accept your premis......
Yes it is a load of tosh. No more and no less less than all of the tosh thrown at us to explain God(swt) can not be can not be an eternal, immortal creator. We are both tied up in the realm of observing that which supports our own beliefs and our individual sets of proof.

To those of us who believe in God(swt) the proof is self evident. To those who don't, no proof will ever be sufficient.

You and I share different sets of concepts. One of us is correct, one is wrong. But, we have no mutually acceptable sources of reference. Without that all debate is fruitless. We can only express our own reasons and offer what we each see as proof.

Our only option is to agree to disagree, respectably..
Reply

Trumble
01-05-2009, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
To those of us who believe in God(swt) the proof is self evident.
That's a contradiction in terms, something is self-evident when it is known to be true without proof. What you mean, I assume, is that such belief means proof is not necessary?
Reply

جوري
01-06-2009, 12:33 AM
On a separate note..
I am surprised no one mentioned 'string theory' a blend of the two Quantum mechanics and General relativity.. I quoted it from Wiki for those interested in the full article, the link is included.. though even with, I fail to see how any theory on science can intercept religion?

String Theory is a developing branch of theoretical physics that combines quantum mechanics and general relativity into a quantum theory of gravity. The Strings of string theory are one-dimensional oscillating lines, but they are no longer considered fundamental to the theory, which can be formulated in terms of points or surfaces too.

Since its birth as the dual resonance model which described the strongly interacting hadrons as strings, the term string theory has changed to include any of a group of related superstring theories which unite them. One shared property of all these theories is the holographic principle. String theory itself consists of many theories with different mathematical formulas. The logical coherence of the approach, however, and the fact that string theory can include all older theories of physics, have led many physicists to believe that such a connection is possible. In particular, string theory is the first candidate for the theory of everything, a way to describe all the known natural forces (gravitational, electromagnetic, weak and strong) and matter (quarks and leptons) in a mathematically complete system. On the other hand, many detractors criticise string theory because it has not yet provided experimentally testable predictions.

Like any other quantum theory of gravity, it is widely believed that testing the theory experimentally would be prohibitively expensive, requiring feats of engineering on a solar-system scale. Although some critics concede that string theory is falsifiable in principle, they maintain that it is unfalsifiable for the foreseeable future, and so should not be called science.

String theory is of interest to many physicists because of the mathematical truths involved and because of the large number of forms that the theories can take. String theory strongly suggests that spacetime has eleven dimensions,[1] as opposed to the usual three space and one time, but the theory can easily describe universes with four observable spacetime dimensions as well.[2]

String theories include objects more general than strings, called branes. The word brane, derived from "membrane", refers to a variety of interrelated objects, such as D-branes, black p-branes and Neveu-Schwarz 5-branes. These are typically extended objects that source differential form generalizations of the vector potential electromagnetic field. All such objects are known to be related to one-another by a variety of dualities. For example, the black hole-like black p-branes are identified with D-branes, upon which strings end, through Gauge-gravity duality. Research on this equivalence has led to new insights on quantum chromodynamics, the fundamental theory of the strong nuclear force.[3][4][5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory


cheers
Reply

tetsujin
01-06-2009, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
I quoted the wrong lecture. Anyway, if you are following the discussion I was quoting to show that early scientists objected to to BBT because it was invoking creation. As for POS, GR breaks down at POS, but that doesn't affect that universe started from hot and dense matter from a single point in time, even hawking believes that. Quote of Hawking is not arguing this, but he arguing whether there was singularity before inflation of universe or not, which is entirely different topic. Anyway, seems like he has changed his mind, this from his later lecture:
The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php?...d=62&Itemid=57
Sir, it is the same topic. Mathematical singularities are precisely the arguments being made on both sides. The lecture you are referencing in no way contradicts what I quoted earlier.

If you read the transcribed lecture as a whole, not just the conclusion, you no doubt have come across this (paragraph 5):

format_quote Originally Posted by Stephen Hawking, "The Beginning of Time"
At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang.
Not only that but he continues on to the next paragraph:

format_quote Originally Posted by Stephen Hawking, "The Beginning of Time"
Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them. This kind of beginning to the universe, and of time itself, is very different to the beginnings that had been considered earlier. These had to be imposed on the universe by some external agency. There is no dynamical reason why the motion of bodies in the solar system can not be extrapolated back in time, far beyond four thousand and four BC, the date for the creation of the universe, according to the book of Genesis. Thus it would require the direct intervention of God, if the universe began at that date. By contrast, the Big Bang is a beginning that is required by the dynamical laws that govern the universe. It is therefore intrinsic to the universe, and is not imposed on it from outside.
You seem to have quoted the wrong lecture again. Have another go.


format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
On a separate note..
I am surprised no one mentioned 'string theory' a blend of the two Quantum mechanics and General relativity.. I quoted it from Wiki for those interested in the full article, the link is included.. though even with, I fail to see how any theory on science can intercept religion?

Which side of this debate are you on? Respectable scientists and philosophers don't bring up string theory because 1) it requires an understanding of qunatum mechanics at the functional (if not theoretical level) 2) an understanding of the 4 fundamental forces (discounting for the moment other observable forces that can also be calculated) and 3) a level of abstract reasoning to which not everyone is accustomed.

But, let's grant that we could include Supersymmetric String Theory and part of Twistor Space and Twistor Theory in this debate, it certainly doesn't help "our" side as we don't have the observable data necessary to confirm the existence of the particles or forces that the theory predicts. That really is the reason why we're dumping so much money into bigger and better particle accelerators like the Large Hadron Collider which started up last year. So ironically, we can't just provide a mathematical proof and say "look we've got it", religious apologists will demand some physical evidence.

Why you think science can never contradict your religion is a question only you can answer.

Epicurus was hard enough, can theodicy also combat Heisenberg?

Sincerely,

Faysal


Edit: my lunch is over, I'll edit for spelling later on....
Reply

Chuck
01-06-2009, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Sir, it is the same topic. Mathematical singularities are precisely the arguments being made on both sides. The lecture you are referencing in no way contradicts what I quoted earlier.

If you read the transcribed lecture as a whole, not just the conclusion, you no doubt have come across this (paragraph 5):



Not only that but he continues on to the next paragraph:



You seem to have quoted the wrong lecture again. Have another go.
Lecture is correct one, link is at the bottom of the quote. And both of your quote in above post shows that he believes this universe originated from singularity and this universe had a beginning, that is what I said. But early quote from "Brief History of Time" appears to show that he was trying to avoid problem of singularity at the beginning of BB.

Its been a very long time I read "Brief History of Time", he goes through alternative possibilities and theories what was before BB and what could have started BB in that book, but I don't remember him denying BB.

What you are talking is not relevant to this discussion as Hawking is not denying BB.

Another thing (Hawking quote): "This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang."
^^ That is old, physicists are changing their opinion about that with new data. To investigate beyond BB, you don't have to go through mathematical singularity for everything, example given in BBC link I posted earlier.
Reply

جوري
01-06-2009, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin

Which side of this debate are you on? Respectable scientists and philosophers don't bring up string theory because 1) it requires an understanding of qunatum mechanics at the functional (if not theoretical level) 2) an understanding of the 4 fundamental forces (discounting for the moment other observable forces that can also be calculated) and 3) a level of abstract reasoning to which not everyone is accustomed.
I guess you are not the only victim to Argumentum ad scientiam + adding 'respectable' really does nothing to sway my opinion into one direction or another.. nor have I mentioned which I find most plausible and it doesn't really matter, I merely threw it out there because I thought it deserved the same attention as the others--why hide it?.. perhaps this didn't make it to a theory but any theory is but popularly accepted knowledge to explain a specific set of phenomena, it is always amenable if falsified, and as the scope of knowledge expands!
But, let's grant that we could include Supersymmetric String Theory and part of Twistor Space and Twistor Theory in this debate, it certainly doesn't help "our" side as we don't have the observable data necessary to confirm the existence of the particles or forces that the theory predicts. That really is the reason why we're dumping so much money into bigger and better particle accelerators like the Large Hadron Collider which started up last year. So ironically, we can't just provide a mathematical proof and say "look we've got it", religious apologists will demand some
Why don't you cut the circuitous route and give me your bottom line?
I suggest you define yourself what 'science' is unless of course you are using it for mere epideictic orations?

Why you think science can never contradict your religion is a question only you can answer.

Epicurus was hard enough, can theodicy also combat Heisenberg?

Sincerely,

Faysal
The question to be posed really is why you think Science contradicts religion?.. I am really not following how the movements of particles, sub-particles,, wave forms, series of probabilities, simultaneously measuring position and momentum to arbitrary precision, random combination of atoms etc etc has anything at all to do of whether God exists or not?.. perhaps you can cut the crap and all the adjectives and tie it together for us?

Edit: my lunch is over, I'll edit for spelling later on....
Don't bother, we are not grading you on grammar or anything in between!
Reply

جوري
01-06-2009, 06:12 PM
addendum: To staff

there was an article here once about Quantum light cone-- can anyone find it for me.. the search feature isn't very helpful..


:w:
Reply

doorster
01-06-2009, 06:19 PM
:sl:
probably these 2 have something about it
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...0-atheism.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rldview-3.html
Reply

جوري
01-06-2009, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
:sl:
I went through about 20 pages in the atheism thread, I know it was posted by Ansar with an external link -- it doesn't matter anyway, I'll just google it.. all the crap on this thread made me think of that post..

Jazaka Allah khyran for your honest effort

:w:
Reply

doorster
01-06-2009, 07:03 PM
try link @ http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat....html#post3137 (I've not read it though)
:w:
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جوري
01-06-2009, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
try link @ http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat....html#post3137 (I've not read it though)
:w:
:sl:

Jazaka Allah khyran.. but the article dealt with physics not biology -- It doesn't really matter anyway in the scheme of things -- I wasn't looking to use it for this topic, rather personal interest.. so it will turn up when it turns up..

Thank you

:w:
Reply

جوري
01-06-2009, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
try link @ http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat....html#post3137 (I've not read it though)
:w:
I found on the web Light-cone quantum mechanics of the
eleven-dimensional superparticle
(see link below)

the mathematics of it is very complex.. I wonder if it poses a challenge to someone like 'Steve' he should come on here to tell is what he thinks... nonetheless the other one covered this topic in a less academic manner for the average Joe..

Jazaka Allah khyran for trying to help..

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1126-6...f-b3ffaa64240a


:w:
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Woodrow
01-07-2009, 04:30 AM
A thought came to mind.

If you believe God(swt) was created, who created the creator that Created God(swt)?

That could continue on ad infinitum, ad nauseum with the logical conclusion being that at some point there had to be a creator who was not created by a creator.

If one believes God(swt) exists part of that belief has to be that God(swt) is eternal without a creator, having always existed. It is an attribute that is a necessary attribute of a divine eternal God(swt)

If you believe God(swt) was created, you do not believe in God(swt)

So the only question that needs to be answered is "Does God(swt) exist"
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Pygoscelis
01-07-2009, 06:10 AM
Some ancient shaman believed that the earth was perched on the back of a giant turtle. Somebody asked "on what is that turtle standing" and he replied "another turtle". Then they asked "and on what is that turtle perched?" and he replied. "Its turtles all the way down".

This is an ancient quandry and one there has never been a really good answer to, much like the problem of evil. It is the proper counter-argument to the watchmaker argument.

The theist argues that a watch must need a creator. Look how complicated and wonderful it is. Surely it didn't come into existence by itself. We know just by looking at it that its wonderful and required a creator - and so too does man who is so much more complicated and wonderful. The atheist then remarks and the God you speak of is even more complex and wonderful - so he/she/it must have been created even more so.
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جوري
01-07-2009, 06:15 AM
Didn't you illuminate us with the turtle story before?

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post968726

Do you have an answer for the 'paradox' or are you standing blind on the others side, not adding but wanting to micturate on this thread?
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-07-2009, 06:26 AM
Oh my goodness. You mean I put the same thought in two separate threads over my time here? I'm sure nobody has ever done that before. Bad me.

The paradox is created by following through on the watchmaker argument. Perhaps it shows that the watchmaker argument is flawed.
Reply

جوري
01-07-2009, 06:30 AM
More dulling to the senses than anything-- it isn't a piece of information whereby repeating it adds any value to makeup for loss of web space .. be that as it may, if it weren't for aberrations by what standards do folks set the baseline for the norm?
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Hamayun
01-07-2009, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The atheist then remarks and the God you speak of is even more complex and wonderful - so he/she/it must have been created even more so.
That is flawed from the start...

1. To be "complex" you have to be a physical entity... God is not an object, machine, creature, substance etc etc. He does not have physical form. Therefore you can not apply that condition to him.

2. If he was created then he can not be classified as God. If he is God then he is not created. The creator can not exist within the Creation. If you say he was created that automatically disqualifies him from being God.

3. If you are willing to beleive something as absurd as:
An unknown force which existed since infinity caused the universe to come into existence... then why then is it so hard to believe that unknown force could be a conscious force which we refer to as "God".

erm... yeah thats pretty much everything I wanted to say lol.

Peace.
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Trumble
01-07-2009, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun

1. To be "complex" you have to be a physical entity... God is not an object, machine, creature, substance etc etc. He does not have physical form. Therefore you can not apply that condition to him.
Huh? What about complex thoughts or complex personalities?
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Ali_Cena
01-07-2009, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Huh? What about complex thoughts or complex personalities?
Hi trumble,
can you touch a "thought"?------- lol even with an respected intelect like you, even you should know that well beining "physical" means that you can touch it or like see it or am i mistaken? you can not touch thoughts, it is not physical.
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Ali_Cena
01-07-2009, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
That is flawed from the start...

1. To be "complex" you have to be a physical entity... God is not an object, machine, creature, substance etc etc.
you have to be physical as in be able to touch it; like an object, thoughts can not be touched, can they?
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Hamayun
01-07-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Huh? What about complex thoughts or complex personalities?
Huh? :? Are your thoughts capable of creating universes?

We are clearly not on the same page here. Not in a mood to get dragged into some irrelevant banter so I will leave it alone...
Reply

Trumble
01-07-2009, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Hi trumble,
can you touch a "thought"?------- lol even with an respected intelect like you, even you should know that well beining "physical" means that you can touch it or like see it or am i mistaken? you can not touch thoughts, it is not physical.
I am not disputing what 'physical' means. I am disputing Hamayun's claim that for something to be complex it must be physical, specifically by the provision of counter-examples showing that claim is false.


format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Huh? :? Are your thoughts capable of creating universes?
Physical universes, no. Complex trains of thought and even mental 'universes', perhaps. But what do my thoughts have to do with anything, I thought we were talking about God?

We are clearly not on the same page here. Not in a mood to get dragged into some irrelevant banter so I will leave it alone...
As you wish.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-09-2009, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
That is flawed from the start...

1. To be "complex" you have to be a physical entity... God is not an object, machine, creature, substance etc etc. He does not have physical form. Therefore you can not apply that condition to him.
Trumble addressed this point already and you seem to have attacked your own argument in response to him. If God doesn't have a physical form, and you need the physical to create the physical, how could he have created the universe?

2. If he was created then he can not be classified as God. If he is God then he is not created. The creator can not exist within the Creation. If you say he was created that automatically disqualifies him from being God.
Semantics.

3. If you are willing to beleive something as absurd as:
An unknown force which existed since infinity caused the universe to come into existence... then why then is it so hard to believe that unknown force could be a conscious force which we refer to as "God".
First, I'm not sure I do accept that an unknown force which existed since infinity caused the universe to come into existence.

Second, if we accept that, why would we assume it was concious? And if we accept it was concious, why would we accept any other claim about it? It is one thing to accept a creation force. Quite another to accept it wrote a book or wants you to worship it or not eat certain things.

Finally, none of this addresses my point, which is a counter to the creationist claim that complexity requires creation. If complexity and wonderfulness requires creation then the more complex and wonderful requires creation moreso. And something able to intelligently design an entire universe would certainly qualify as complex and wonderful.
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Whatsthepoint
01-09-2009, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Huh? What about complex thoughts or complex personalities?
Aren't thoughts and personalities basically just neural networks, therefore physical?
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Ali_Cena
01-09-2009, 06:18 PM
lol whatsthepoint
can you touch my thought right now?
thats like saying (i presume you got a girlfriend of a partner who you like) and me saying i can touch your love---literaly, TOUCH YOUR LOVE, how can you literaly touch "love" or "thoughts" in that instance, think about it-----honestly???????? if you think you can then your just makeing an excuse to make you sound like you are right......
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Hamayun
01-09-2009, 08:51 PM
Sorry but all I see is blah blah blah... leading to a dead end where none of us will ever reach a conclusion or see eye to eye...

If it makes you happy then you are right... you can carry on beleiving that :bravo:Good for you :beard:

Toodle pip :)
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Trumble
01-09-2009, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Aren't thoughts and personalities basically just neural networks, therefore physical?
Only if you are a reductive materialist. I'm not; I find the suggestion that thoughts as we experience them can be directly identified as 'neural networks' or any other physical phenomenon both counter-intuitive and totally unconvincing.
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Woodrow
01-09-2009, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Only if you are a reductive materialist. I'm not; I find the suggestion that thoughts as we experience them can be directly identified as 'neural networks' or any other physical phenomenon both counter-intuitive and totally unconvincing.
Besides that it is an elusive booger-bear that has not been found.

Quite simply if that were the case stimulating the same neurons in different people should elicit the same thought. That has not happened, You can stimulant the same neurons in different people, but the thoughts elicited will differ. Something besides neural networking is taking place.
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Trumble
01-09-2009, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Besides that it is an elusive booger-bear that has not been found.

Quite simply if that were the case stimulating the same neurons in different people should elicit the same thought. That has not happened, You can stimulant the same neurons in different people, but the thoughts elicited will differ. Something besides neural networking is taking place.
There's no requirement that they should be the same neurons or even neurons at all (the phrase 'neural network' is also applied to computer implementations these days). Whatsthepoint's description doesn't rule out the possibility of multiple realizability. Even so I agree something else is taking place. It takes a lot more to prove that an apple is in fact an orange than just saying that it is!
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Zamtsa
01-10-2009, 03:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz
Thanks, Also i was telling some people that in order for life there must be billions of conditons in order for life to be maintained, and they said that there are billions are planets so there is a good chance that a planet with nesassary condtions will arrive at some point.

What do you think about this?
Those people must instead think that Allahu Ta'ala tried to give human being the simplest thinking that even the dumbest people could understand that is:

Likely that Allah meant "I could create the bad planet and those which aren't deserve to be populated by organism and it is in various kinds, and I could make the planet which is worthy to be populated, and that's only 1(earth).
So I hath created the Heaven for people who want to follow the ONLY path from Me, and created the Hellfire for people who want to follow the DIVERSE paths, which is by doing so they are following Syaithan."

Allahu Ta'ala is the All Knowing so He creates things which shown His knowledge in creation and Syari'ah, and He is All Wise so He could creates things which are so easy for a retard to understand that He had sent down Islam as the way of live, through His Kalam(speech) which is Al Qur'an, and His Al Hikmah which is Al Hadits.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
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Whatsthepoint
01-10-2009, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Besides that it is an elusive booger-bear that has not been found.

Quite simply if that were the case stimulating the same neurons in different people should elicit the same thought. That has not happened, You can stimulant the same neurons in different people, but the thoughts elicited will differ. Something besides neural networking is taking place.
I'm not saying it is a fact, I'm saying it is a possibility.
That hasn't happened beacuse:
1. not a single person has the same brain
2. we can only stimulate certain areas of the brain, we're no way near stimulating single neurons, let alone a giant combination thereof.
If we were to find the way the human brain produces thoughts, I am confident we would be able to elicit dame thoughts in two separate individuals. That's faith though.
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Zamtsa
01-10-2009, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Only if you are a reductive materialist. I'm not; I find the suggestion that thoughts as we experience them can be directly identified as 'neural networks' or any other physical phenomenon both counter-intuitive and totally unconvincing.

Al Waqi'ah(56):83 Then why do ye not (intervene) when (the soul of the dying man) reaches the throat
84 And ye the while (sit) looking on
85 But We are nearer to him than ye and yet see not
86 Then why do you not if you are exempt from (future) account
87 Call back the SOUL if ye are true (in your claim of Independence)?

The soul could command the Brain to think as how Allahu Ta'ala has create human being in that manner.
Allahu Ta'ala has create human being in the state of appreciating any food's taste when they are hungry (influencing the sense of taste), and in the state to rescue themselves from danger (influencing Adrenalines and Endorphines).

Therefore eventhough how high your experience or enlightment which you have achieved, you couldn't help yourselves but by becoming one of Muslim.


Al Isra'(17):85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you (O men!) 2285
86 If it were Our Will We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration: then would thou find none to plead thy affair in that matter as against Us 2286
87 Except for Mercy from thy Lord: for His Bounty is to thee (indeed) great. 2287
88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an they could not produce the like thereof even if they backed up each other with help and support.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace be upon who follow the guidance).
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