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August
11-20-2008, 07:09 AM
Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths? Obviously, I'm not Muslim, so I don't think Muhammed was a prophet. I'm not Mormon, so I don't think Joseph Smith was a prophet. I'm not a Scientologist, so I don't think L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet.:D I could do the same for a hundred other religions, but those are the ones that came off the top of my head. This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?
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Trumble
11-20-2008, 09:36 AM
No, not if the choices are restricted to 'liar', 'crazy' or 'delusional'. You may decide on one of those in the end, of course, but you dismiss 'four' (which should be 'one'!) far too easily - that they were none of those things.

It simply isn't enough to say I am not a muslim, Mormon or whatever, and your first task before assigning labels to prophets should be to give serious consideration to their messages.
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YusufNoor
11-20-2008, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths? Obviously, I'm not Muslim, so I don't think Muhammed was a prophet. I'm not Mormon, so I don't think Joseph Smith was a prophet. I'm not a Scientologist, so I don't think L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet.:D I could do the same for a hundred other religions, but those are the ones that came off the top of my head. This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

1st if all, the premise for your question is incorrect. regardless of whether or not you are a Muslim, regardless of your opinion, the Prophet of Allah, Muhammad ibn Abdullah[pbuh] IS the final Messenger of Allah Subahanahu Wa Ta Aala!

There is no God but Allah[swt], and we worship Him alone and without partners and Muhammad[pbuh] is the slave and final Messenger of Allah.

what you think of the other religions will not help you on the day of Qiyama. you should be more concerned with why you are rejecting the final Message from your creator and my creator.

to quote the Messenger[pbuh] of Allah[swt]:

“In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Peace be upon him who follows the right path. Furthermore, I invite you to Islam and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your subjects. And I recite to you Allah's statement:

“O People of the Scriptures! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah). (Qur’an: Surah 3, Ayah 64).”

:w:
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IbnAbdulHakim
11-20-2008, 02:56 PM
you can tell whos a prophet by what they teach - if it conforms to the ways of all the prophets and teachings of God then you know it

if not they his a liar - kazzab - dajjal
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August
11-20-2008, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, not if the choices are restricted to 'liar', 'crazy' or 'delusional'. You may decide on one of those in the end, of course, but you dismiss 'four' (which should be 'one'!) far too easily - that they were none of those things.

It simply isn't enough to say I am not a muslim, Mormon or whatever, and your first task before assigning labels to prophets should be to give serious consideration to their messages.
Then how do you view them? You're a Buddhist, so obviously you don't believe that the Muslim or Mormon prophets were speaking for God, so why do you believe they did what they did?
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islamirama
11-20-2008, 05:01 PM
What is the Criteria for a True Prophet?


http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/202/
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K.Venugopal
11-20-2008, 05:37 PM
I am sure in this forum a million words would have been written defining a prophet. Still, for the benefit of late entrants like me with a paucity of time to wade through all that which has been written previously, I shall be thankful if someone would spell out what sort of a person is entitled to be called a prophet.
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islamirama
11-20-2008, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I am sure in this forum a million words would have been written defining a prophet. Still, for the benefit of late entrants like me with a paucity of time to wade through all that which has been written previously, I shall be thankful if someone would spell out what sort of a person is entitled to be called a prophet.
One might ask, how were the prophets chosen and who were entitled to this great honor?


Prophethood is Allah's blessing and favor that He may bestow on whom He wills. However, from surveying the various Messengers throughout history, three features of a prophet may be recognized:


1. He is the best in his community morally and intellectually. This is necessary because a prophet's life serves as a role model for his followers. His personality should attract people to accept his message rather than drive them away by his imperfect character. After receiving the message, he is infallible. That is, he would not commit any sin. He might make some minor mistakes, which are usually corrected by revelation.


2. He is supported by miracles to prove that he is not an imposter. Those miracles are granted by the power and permission of God and are usually in the field in which his people excel and are recognized as superiors. We might illustrate this by quoting the major miracles of the three prophets of the major world religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.



Moses' contemporaries were excellent in magic, so his major miracle was to defeat the best magicians of Egypt of his days. Jesus' contemporaries were recognized as skilled physicians, therefore, his miracles were to raise the dead and cure incurable diseases. The Arabs, the contemporaries of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , were known for their eloquence and magnificent poetry. So Prophet Muhammad's major miracle was the Qur'an, the equivalent of which the whole legion of Arab poets and orators could not produce, despite the repeated challenge from the Qur'an itself. Again, Muhammad's miracle has something special about it. All previous miracles were limited by time and place; that is, they were shown to specific people at a specific time. Not so with the miracle of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , the Qur'an. It is a universal and everlasting miracle. Previous generations witnessed it and future generations will witness its miraculous nature in terms of its style, content and spiritual uplifting. These can still be tested and will thereby prove the divine origin of the Qur'an.


3. Every prophet states clearly that what he receives is not of his own, but from God for the well-being of mankind. He also confirms what was revealed before him and what may be revealed after him. A prophet does this to show that he is simply conveying the message that is entrusted to him by the One True God of all people in all ages. So the message is one in essence and for the same purpose. Therefore, it should not deviate from what was revealed before him or what might come after him.



Prophets are necessary for conveying God's instructions and guidance to mankind. We have no way of knowing why we were created. What will happen to us after death? Is there any life after death? Are we accountable for our actions? These and so many other questions about God, angels, paradise, hell, and more, cannot be answered without direct revelation from the Creator and Knower of the unseen. Those answers must be authentic and must be brought by individuals whom we trust and respect. That is why Messengers are the elite of their societies in terms of moral conduct and intellectual ability.


Hence, the slanderous Biblical stories about some of the great prophets are not accepted by Muslims. For example, Lot is reported to have committed incestuous fornication while drunk. David is alleged to have sent one of his leaders to his death in order to marry his wife. Prophets, to Muslims, are greater than what these stories indicate. These stories cannot be true from the Islamic point of view.


The prophets are also miraculously supported by God and instructed by Him to affirm the continuity of the message. The content of the prophets' message to mankind can be summarized as follows:


a) Clear concept of God: His attributes, His creation, what should and should not be ascribed to Him.


b) Clear idea about the unseen world, the angels, jinn (spirits), Paradise and Hell.


c) Why God has created us, what He wants from us and what rewards and punishments are for obedience and disobedience.


d) How to run our societies according to His will. That is, clear instructions and laws that, when applied correctly and honestly, will result in a smoothly functioning, harmonious society.


It is clear from the above discussion that there is no substitute for prophets. Even today with the advancement of science, the only authentic source of information about the supernatural world is revelation. Guidance can be obtained neither from science nor from mystic experience. The first is too materialistic and limited; the second is too subjective and frequently misleading.

From: http://www.4islam.com/prophethoodislam.shtml

See also

Questions concerning Prophethood


http://islambyquestions.net/Prophets/index.htm
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جوري
11-20-2008, 06:07 PM
It is easier indeed to believe in the man/God, who stood out from
Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Issac, Ishmael , Eber, Shaloh, Lot, Job, Jethro etc etc even though they all came centuries apart, and preached the exact same message..
for a man who broke his own commandments, abrogated his own laws, had a sudden personality change, and foresake his own self...

:lol: you are so funny.. I am always amused at how christians will go on maligning everything in existance so their fallacy of a religion would seem like the best option...

and how exactly do you worship? you put on a nice robe and sing and dance?
very God like..

Enjoy, but don't bother everyone else along with you..

cheers
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جوري
11-20-2008, 06:14 PM
a brief read defining the difference between messenger and prophet according to Islam

Etymology
In both Arabic and Hebrew, the term nabī (plural forms: nabiyyūn and anbiyāʾ) means "prophet". These terms occur 75 times in the Qur'an. The term nubuwwa (meaning "prophethood") occurs five times in the Qur'an. The terms rasūl (plural: rusul) and mursal (plural: mursalūn) denote “messenger” or "apostle" and occur more than 300 times. The term for a prophetic “message”, risāla (plural: risālāt) appears in the Qur'an in ten instances.[2]

The Syriac form of rasūl Allāh (literally: "messenger of God"), s̲h̲eliḥeh d-allāhā, occurs frequently in the apocryphal Acts of St. Thomas. The corresponding verb for s̲h̲eliḥeh — s̲h̲alaḥ, occurs in connection with the prophets in the Old Testament (Exodus, iii, 13-14, iv, 13; Isaiah, vi, 8; Jeremiah, i, 7).[3]


[edit] Prophets and messengers in the Bible
The words "prophet" (Arabic: nabi, نبی) and "messenger" (Arabic: rasul, رسول) appear several times in the Old and New Testaments. The following table shows these words in different religious languages[4]:

Prophet and Messenger in Bible Arabic English Greek pronunciation Hebrew pronunciation
نبی Prophet προφήτης prophētēs נביא nâbîy'
رسول Messenger, Apostle ἄγγελος aggelos מלאך mal'âk

In the Old Testament the word "prophet" (Hebrew: nabi) occurs more commonly, and the word "messenger" (Hebrew: malak) refers to angels, But the last book of the Old Testament, the Book of Malachi, speaks of a messenger that most commentators interpret as a reference to John the Baptist.[5] In the New Testament, however, the word "messenger" becomes more frequent, sometimes in association with the concept of a prophet.[6] "Messenger" can refer to Jesus, to his Apostles and to John the Baptist

It seems that in the New Testament messengers have a higher rank than prophets; Jesus Christ said about John the Baptist:

But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.[7]


[edit] Prophets and messengers in the Qur'an
The table below charts the Qur'anic verses which explicitly reference a prophet (nabi), a messenger (rasul) or a leader (imam). It also charts explicit references to prophets' book(s) / people / divine law (sharia).

Men of Allah in Qur'an Name Nabi (Prophet) Rasul (Messenger) Imam (Leader) Book People Sharia (Divine Law)
Adam (Adam)
Idris (Enoch)
Prophet [8]
Nuh (Noah)
Prophet [9]
Messenger [10] People of Noah [11]
Shari'a [12]
Hud (Eber)
Messenger [13] A'ad [14]
Saleh (Shaloh)
Messenger [15] Thamud [16]
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Prophet [17]
Messenger [18]
Imam [19] Books of Abraham [20] People of Abraham [21]
Shari'a [12]
Lut (Lot)
Prophet [9]
Messenger [22] People of Lut [23]
Isma’il (Ishmael)
Prophet [24]
Messenger [24]
Ishaq (Isaac)
Prophet [25]
Imam [26]
Yaqub (Jacob)
Prophet [25]
Imam [26]
Yusef (Joseph)
Prophet [9]
Ayoub (Job)
Prophet [9]
Shoaib (Jethro)
Messenger [27] Midian [28]
Musa (Moses)
Prophet [29]
Messenger [29] Books of Moses [30] Pharaoh [31]
Shari'a [12]
Harun (Aaron)
Prophet [32]
Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel)
Daud (David)
Prophet [9] Zabur [33] (Psalms)
Sulayman (Solomon)
Prophet [9]
Ilyas (Elijah)
Prophet [9]
Messenger [34] People of Elijah [35]
Al-Yasa (Elisha)
Prophet [9]
Yunus (Jonah)
Prophet [9]
Messenger [36] People of Jonah [37]
Zakariya (Zechariah)
Prophet [9]
Yahya (John)
Prophet [38]
Isa (Jesus)
Prophet [39]
Messenger [40] Injil [41] (Gospel) Children of Israel [42]
Shari'a [12]
Muhammad (Muhammad)
Prophet [43]
Messenger [43] Qur'an [44] All people [45]
Shari'a [12]

For Ahl al-Kitab (followers of the Holy Books), see People of the Book.


[edit] Distinguishing between prophets and messengers
The Quran, like the New Testament, ranks a Messenger (apostle) higher than a Prophet. For example, in the Qur'an whenever both titles appear together, "messenger" comes first. According to the Muslim scholar al-Baydawi, a messenger establishes a new religious law (sharia) whereas a prophet continues an old one. This would imply that prophets were more numerous than messengers and occupied a lower rank.[2] God sends both prophets and messengers as givers of good news and as warners to their people. In the case of messengers, however, it appears that a close relationship exists between them and their people (ummah). A messenger will become the witness that God will take from that community on the Day of Judgment (see Sura X, 48; XVI, 38; XXIII, 46; XL, 5; IV, 45; XXVIII, 75). According to the Qur'an, Allah sent Muhammad to a people to whom He had not previously sent a messenger.[3]

The Faithful distinguish between celestial and human messengers. In the Qur'anic world, God has made the angels messengers but not prophets. The human messengers, however, also function as prophets — though not every prophet serves a messenger.[2] Angels always carrys "orders" to the human prophets or messengers on what to say, what to do, and so forth. While human messengers deliver some messages about new orders to the people, prophets only reinforce previous orders by earlier messengers or prophets, but since the angels carry orders to prophets to do their duty, then all angels of revelations count as messengers.


[edit] The status of prophets
The Qur'anic verse 4:69 lists various virtuous groups of human beings, among whom prophets (which include messengers) occupy the highest rank. Verse 4:69 reads:[2]

And whoever obeys God and the messenger, these will be [in paradise] with the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the righteous, upon whom God has bestowed favors"
[edit] Miracles
The Prophet Muhammad performed his greatest and only miracle in revealing the Holy Qur'an to mankind; Muslims regard this as the last in a series of divine revelations, which came to him through the inspiraton of the Angel Gabriel. At the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, the Arabians who stood at the pinacle of linguistic and poetic eloquence expressed astonishment at its linguistic perfection. The Qur'an seemed even more miraculous to the Arabians of his time due to the fact that the Prophet Muhammed lacked education in the matters of philosophy, science, linguistic syntax; nor was he a poet and moreover had not read or written down any of the previous religious scriptures . The Qur'an challenges all of humanity to make a book of its kind. Many people{[who?}} during the time of the Prophet Muhammed took on this challenge and tried to imitate the eloquence of the Qura'n but failed in their attempts. Unlike most ancient religious texts, the Qur'an has survived in its original form since its compilation. Muslims up until present times have memorized it, making it the most memorized book in human history. Muslims believe that, unlike other miracles done by other prophets who came before Muhammad, all ages can witness the miracle of the Quran. With the revelation of the Holy Qur'an came a unprecedented revolution in science, literature and philosophy that not only took place in the Islamic empire but worldwide. Despite modern criticism of the Islamic religion, due to the unprecedented influence that the revelation Qur'an has had on people throughout history many historians and great figures in history have recognized the Prophet Muhammad as the most influential person in human history.[46]


[edit] Prophets and scriptures
Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (June 2008)


[edit] The prophets and Muhammad
Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (June 2009)


[edit] The scope of the prophetic mission
Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (June 2008)


[edit] The purpose of messengers
The following list summarises the purpose of sending Messengers of Allah:

i. Allah sent messengers to every nation to guide them to Path of Allah:

وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الطَّاغُوتَ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ هَدَى اللّهُ وَمِنْهُم مَّنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلالَةُ فَسِيرُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ فَانظُرُواْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ

Transliteration: Walaqad baAAathna fee kulli ommatin rasoolan ani oAAbudoo Allaha waijtaniboo alttaghoota faminhum man hada Allahu waminhum man haqqat AAalayhi alddalalatu faseeroo fee al-ardi faonthuroo kayfa kana AAaqibatu almukaththibeena (Qur'an 16:36)

Pickthal Translation: And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. Then some of them (there were) whom Allah guided, and some of them (there were) upon whom error had just hold. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers! (Qur'an 16:36)

ii. Messengers warn nations to follow Allah’s commands and gave them glad tidings:

إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَإِن مِّنْ أُمَّةٍ إِلَّا خلَا فِيهَا نَذِيرٌ

Transliteration: Inna arsalnaka bialhaqqi basheeran wanatheeran wa-in min ommatin illa khala feeha natheerun (Qur'an 35:24)

Pickthal Translation: Lo! We have sent thee with the Truth, a bearer of glad tidings and a warner; and there is not a nation but a warner hath passed among them. (Qur'an 35:24)

iii. Messengers gave us guidance from Allah, taught us knowledge and provided a path to purify us:

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولاً مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُواْ تَعْلَمُونَ

Transliteration: Kama arsalna feekum rasoolan minkum yatloo AAalaykum ayatina wayuzakkeekum wayuAAallimukumu alkitaba waalhikmata wayuAAallimukum ma lam takoonoo taAAlamoona (Qur'an 2:151)

Pickthal Translation: Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not. (Qur'an 2:151)

iv. Allah explained that obedience to Him and His Messenger will earn paradise:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا وَذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

Transliteration: Tilka hudoodu Allahi waman yutiAAi Allaha warasoolahu yudkhilhu jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu khalideena feeha wathalika alfawzu alAAatheemu (Qur'an 4:13)

Pickthal Translation: These are the limits (imposed by) Allah. Whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow, where such will dwell for ever. That will be the great success. (Qur'an 4:13)

v. And whosoever disobeys will earn Hell fire:

وَمَن يَعْصِ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَهُ يُدْخِلْهُ نَارًا خَالِدًا فِيهَا وَلَهُ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ

Transliteration: Waman yaAAsi Allaha warasoolahu wayataAAadda hudoodahu yudkhilhu naran khalidan feeha walahu AAathabun muheenun (Qur'an 4:14)

Pickthal Translation: And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom. (Qur'an 4:14)

vi. Allah said that He will judge us only after we have received the Message from His Messengers, and everyone will be judged based on his own actions:

فَلَنَسْأَلَنَّ الَّذِينَ أُرْسِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَنَسْأَلَنَّ الْمُرْسَلِينَ - فَلَنَقُصَّنَّ عَلَيْهِم بِعِلْمٍ وَمَا كُنَّا غَآئِبِينَ

Transliteration: Falanas-alanna allatheena orsila ilayhim walanas-alanna almursaleena. Falanaqussanna AAalayhim biAAilmin wama kunna gha-ibeena (Qur'an 7:6-7)

Pickthal Translation: Then verily We shall question those unto whom (Our message) hath been sent, and verily We shall question the messengers. Then verily We shall narrate unto them (the event) with knowledge, for We were not absent (when it came to pass). (Qur'an 7:6-7)

مَّنِ اهْتَدَى فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدي لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّى نَبْعَثَ رَسُولاً

Transliteration: Mani ihtada fa-innama yahtadee linafsihi waman dalla fa-innama yadillu AAalayha wala taziru waziratun wizra okhra wama kunna muAAaththibeena hatta nabAAatha rasoolan (Qur'an 17:15)

Pickthal Translation: Whosoever goeth right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load, We never punish until we have sent a messenger. (Qur'an 17:15)

تَكَادُ تَمَيَّزُ مِنَ الْغَيْظِ كُلَّمَا أُلْقِيَ فِيهَا فَوْجٌ سَأَلَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَا أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ نَذِيرٌ- قَالُوا بَلَى قَدْ جَاءنَا نَذِيرٌ فَكَذَّبْنَا وَقُلْنَا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ مِن شَيْءٍ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلَّا فِي ضَلَالٍ كَبِيرٍ

Transliteration: Takadu tamayyazu mina alghaythi kullama olqiya feeha fawjun saalahum khazanatuha alam ya/tikum natheerun. Qaloo bala qad jaana natheerun fakaththabna waqulna ma nazzala Allahu min shay-in in antum illa fee dalalin kabeerin (Qur'an 67:8-9)

Pickthal Translation: As it would burst with rage. Whenever a (fresh) host is flung therein the wardens thereof ask them: Came there unto you no warner? They say: Yea, verily, a warner came unto us; but we denied and said: Allah hath naught revealed; ye are in naught but a great error. (Qur'an 67:8-9)

vii. Thus, those who received His message will not have excuse of ignorance:

رُّسُلاً مُّبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ لِئَلاَّ يَكُونَ لِلنَّاسِ عَلَى اللّهِ حُجَّةٌ بَعْدَ الرُّسُلِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا

Transliteration: Rusulan mubashshireena wamunthireena li-alla yakoona lilnnasi AAala Allahi hujjatun baAAda alrrusuli wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman (Qur'an 4:165)

Pickthal Translation: Messengers of good cheer and of warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. (Qur'an 4:165)


[edit] Distinguishing Muhammad from other messengers
Muhammad differs from other messengers in three respects:

i. Allah sent all previous messengers to a specific nation in specific region of Earth. Their teachings were also limited for a specific time and period. However, Muhammad was sent to entire mankind and his guidance is for all mankind until the end of times.

ii. The teachings of all previous Islamic messengers except Muhammad have all but disappeared, and whatever remained of it is so much altered and mixed with falsely made up stories that it is very difficult to recognize the original teachings. Whilst the teaching of Muhammad and the Quran is preserved in its originality, and Allah has promised to protect it until end of times.

iii. The teachings of previous Messengers confined themselves to specific nations and times, thus their laws relating to ethics and moral code, justice, trade and financial deals, civilian laws remained incomplete. Allah (swt) through his final Messenger Mohamad completed the Religion and perfected it. It includes all the teachings from previous Messengers, and abrogated what was specific to those people and time.

Thus since the days of the prophet the teaching of Muhammad remains as the only trustworthy source to reach the guidance of Allah. And if one wants to follow teachings of Moses and Jesus, who also brought the religion of Allah to their nations, then he has no other choice but to accept the teachings of Muhammad who left with us the trustable source to guidance from Allah in the Quran and in the Sunnah.


[edit] The Relationship between Messengers (rusul), Prophets (anbiya), the Announcement (naba), and The Sender (mursil)
The verse about the great news (awful tiding, great event, mighty tiding, mighty event, tremendous announcement, grand news, awesome tiding) reads:

Quran 78:2 AAani alnnaba-i alAAatheemi Concerning the Great News

Nabi, Naba

The word used in this verse, naba, relates to the word nabi.

Nabi (prophet) is one who informs others.
Naba is news, announcement, information.
Anbiya is plural of nabi.
Anbiya inform others of a coming naba. The Quran says that the naba is not the Quran itself but that it comes in the future.

Rasul, Mursil

Now when I look at the word rasul I notice it relates to the word mursil.

Rasul is a messenger, a bearer of a message.
Mursal(een) is a messenger, a bearer of a message.
Mursil is one who sends, a sender.
Risalat is messages.
Rusul is plural of rasul.
So a rasul is sent by a mursil to give risalat. The Quran says that risalat of the mursil (Allah) are His kalimat. The Quran says that risalatullah cannot end.

All Together

Putting these together, we see that Jesus and Muhammad are each a rasul who was sent from the mursil to act as a nabi to inform of the naba.

The Quran itself even states that the messages (risalat), which are by definition the kalamat (words) of God, cannot be exhausted. Therefore the naba which was announced by the anbiya (plural of nabi) must itself be followed by more risalat (messages).

If or when the naba appeared, there was no need for any more nabi (who give the news of the naba). What about rusul (messengers) and risalat (messages)? Does the mursil stop sending rusul to give his risalat? The Quran says no.

I note that the sender of messages and messengers (mursil) is a rasul if he gives the risalat himself. And, I note that the mursil can send rusul who are not anbiya.

Summary

To summarize, there are four words in question: nabi, naba, rasul, and mursil.

Some rusul (plural of rasul) are anbiya (prophets) if they are sent (arsala) before the naba.
Some rusul are not anbiya if they are sent after the naba.
The naba itself is a risalatun.
The naba is associated with the mursil in the Quran.
Risalat cannot be exhausted.
The mursil sends rusul to give 'risalat even after naba.
There's no reason why a mursil cannot give risalat himself (and act as a rasul).

[edit] Points of belief about Muhammad
The belief in Muhammad includes four points:

i. That he is the Messenger of Allah who brought us the Book of Guidance, the Quran

ii. That he brought us the deen (way of life, or path) that is complete and perfected, and it's applicable to all mankind until end of times

iii. That he receives his guidance from Allah and that his knowledge and guidance is perfect from any defects

iv. That he is the Last and Final Messenger of Allah who has perfected the deen (way of life, or path) of Allah, and there will be no further Messenger after him, as none is needed after the deen is completed and perfected. And teachings of Muhammad are for remainder of mankind.


[edit] The reception of the prophets
Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (June 2008)


[edit] Stories of prophets
Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (June 2008)

Allah sent each prophet to a specific nation except Muhammed - whom Allah sent to the whole world.


[edit] Prophets in the Qur'an
The following table lists the prophets mentioned in the Qur'an. Biblical versions of names also appear where applicable:

“ And undoubtedly, We sent many Messengers before you, of them, there are some whose story We have narrated to you, and there are some whose story We have not narrated to you, and it is not for any Messenger that he should bring any sign without Allah's permission, but when the command of Allah will come, the matter shall be decided with truth, and then the men of falsehood shall lose there." „
—Qur'an, [47]


Name (Arabic & Arabic Translit.) Name (Biblical) Main Article(s) No. of verses with mention
آدم
Adam Adam Main articles: Islamic view of Adam, Adam (Bible), and Adam and Eve 5
"Adam is the first prophet of Islam and the first human being. He was created by God but brought to life forty days after being kept as a dry body."[cite this quote]


إدريس
Idris Enoch Main articles: Idris (prophet) and Enoch (ancestor of Noah) 3
Idris lived during a period of drought inflicted by God to punish the people of the world who had forgotten God. Idris prayed for salvation and for an end to the suffering, and so the world received rain.[citations needed]


نوح
Nuh Noah Main articles: Islamic view of Noah and Noah 7
Although best known for the Deluge, Nuh was a primary preacher of monotheism at his time. Muslims believe his faith in God led to his selection for building the Ark.[citation needed]


هود
Hud Eber Main article: Hud (prophet) 9
Muslims believe that Hud, for whom the eleventh chapter of the Qur'an takes its name, was one of the few people to survive a great storm inflicted by God, similar to the Deluge five generations earlier, to punish the people of the `Ad who had forgotten about God. Hud, by comparison and records, is never mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible.[citation needed]


صالح
Saleh Shaloh Main article: Saleh 7
According to the Qur'an God ordered Saleh to leave behind his people, the tribe of Thamud, after they disbelieved and disobeyed God's order to care for a special camel and instead killed it. In Saleh's and his followers' (believers) absence, God punished the people with an utter cry from the skies that killed his people instantly. Note that Saleh is not Shelah mentioned in the Old Testament.


إبراهيم
Ibrahim Abraham Main articles: Islamic view of Abraham and Abraham 5
Muslims today regard Abraham as one of the significant prophets, because they credit him with rebuilding the Kaaba in Mecca. His family, including his son Ishmael, also receives credit with helping create the civilization around Mecca that would later give birth to the final prophet of Islam, Muhammad. Ibrahim also significantly almost sacrificing his son Ismail (Ishmael) to God in an event now commemorated annually by Eid ul-Adha. He is also the first prophet to name the believers as "Muslims" meaning "those with full submission to God".[citation needed]


لوط
Lut Lot Main articles: Islamic view of Lot and Lot (Bible) 2
Lot is most notable in Islam for attempting to preach against homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorra in addition to preaching for his people to believe in the Oneness of God, only to be mocked and ignored by the people who lived there. Islam also denies the acts attributed to Lut that are mentioned in the Old Testament, like drinking and being drunk, and having intercourse with and impregnating his two daughters.


إسماعيل
Isma'il Ishmael Main articles: Islamic view of Ishmael and Ishmael 9
Muslims regard Ismaïl, first-born son of Ibrahim, as a notable prophet in Islam for his near-sacrifice in adulthood. As a child he and his mother Hagar's search for water in the region around Mecca led God to reveal the Zamzam well, which still flows to this day.


إسحاق
Ishaq Isaac Main article: Isaac 9
According to Islamic tradition, Isaac, second-born son of Ibrahim, became a prophet in Canaan. He, along with his brother Ismaïl, carried on the legacy of Ibrahim as prophets of Islam.


يعقوب
Yakub Jacob Main article: Jacob 2
Yakub, according to the Qur'an was "of the company of the Elect and the Good"[48] and he continued the legacy of both his father, Isaac, and his grandfather, Abraham. Like his ancestors, he was committed to worshipping God exclusively.


يوسف
Yusuf Joseph Main articles: Islamic view of Joseph and Joseph (Bible) 3
Yusuf, son of (Yakub) and great-grandson of Ibrahim, became a prominent advisor to the king of Egypt after he interpreted the phaoroh's dream which predicted the economic state of Egypt. He spent a large part of his life away from his eleven brothers, who showed jealousy of Yusuf because their father favored him. They took him one day, telling their father that they where going to play and have fun, but they planned to kill him. Instead, they threw him down a well and told their father Yaqub that he was eaten by a wolf. According to Islam Yusuf was gifted with half of the beauty granted to mankind.


أيوب
Ayyub Job Main article: Job (Bible) 8
According to Islamic tradition, Ayyub was rewarded by a fountain of youth, which removed all illnesses except death, for his service to God in his hometown outside Al Majdal. Ayyub is believed to have suffered an illness for 18 years as test of patience by God.


شعيب
Shu'aib Jethro Main articles: Shoaib and Jethro 2
Jethro was a direct descendant of Abraham. According to Islam, he was appointed by God to guide the people of Midyan and Aykah, who lived near Mount Sinai. When the people of the region failed to listen to his warnings, God destroyed the disbeliever's villages. Although the Qur'an and the reported speeches from Muhammad mention that Musa married one of Shu'aib's daughters, the Old Testament tells the same story of a man named Jethro. Some scholars[who?] believe that Jethro in the Old Testament is not the same person as Shu'aib in the Qur'an.


موسى
Musa Moses Main articles: Islamic view of Moses and Moses 5
Moses, whom the Qur'an refers to more than any other prophet, had the distinction of revealing the Tawrat (Torah) to the Israelites. The Qur'an says Musa realized his connection with God after receiving commands from him during a stop at Mount Sinai. He later went on to free the enslaved Hebrews after the Egyptian pharaoh denied God's power. Musa subsequently led the freed Hebrews for forty years through the desert after they refused to obey God's command and enter the Holy Lands, saying to Moses (as mentioned in Qur'an [Qur'an 5:24], "O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here." During this long journey, on another trip to Mount Sinai Musa received the Tawrat and the Ten Commandments. At the end of his life, according to Islamic tradition, Musa chose to die to be closer to God instead of taking an offer that would have extended his life.


هارون
Harūn Aaron Main articles: Islamic view of Aaron and Aaron 8
Harun (Aaron) served as an assistant to his older brother Musa (Moses). In Islam, he, like Musa, received the task of saving the Israelites from the Egyptian pharaoh. He would often speak for Musa when Musa’s speech impediment prevented him from doing so himself.


ذو الكفل
Dhul-Kifl most likely Ezekiel Main articles: Dhul-Kifl and Ezekiel 5
The status of Dhul-Kifl as a prophet remains debatable within Islam, although both sides can agree that he was indeed a righteous man who strived in the way of God. Some studies also note that Dhul-Kifl can be also Obadiah, who is mentioned in the Old Testament to be the one that took care of 100 prophets. He is also believed to have possibly been Gautama Buddha.


داود
Dawud David Main article: David 7
In Islam, God revealed the Zabur (Psalms) to Dawud (David). Dawud also has significance as the one who defeated Goliath. It is worth to note that the story of King David with Uriah according to the Islamic tradition is different, thus the acts attributed to King David in the Old Testament like sending Uriah to be killed for the purpose of marrying his wife is denied in Islam.


سليمان
Süleyman Solomon Main articles: Islamic view of Solomon and Solomon 6
Süleyman (Solomon) learned a significant amount from his father Daud before God made him a prophet. According to Islamic tradition, Süleyman received power to manipulate nature, including the jinn. Known for his honesty and fairness, he also led a kingdom that extended into southern Arabia.


إلياس
Ilyas Elijah Main articles: Ilyas and Elijah 3
Ilyas (Elijah), descendant of Harun (Aaron), took over control of the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula after the kingdom of Sulaiman (Solomon) collapsed. Islamic tradition says he attempted to convince the people of the Peninsula of the existence of only one God, but when the people refused to listen they were smitten with a drought and famine.


اليسع
Al-Yasa Elisha Main articles: Al-Yasa and Elisha 3
Al-Yasa (Elisha) took over the task of leading the Israelites after Ilyas' (Elijah) death. He attempted to show the king and queen of Israel the powers of God, but was dismissed as a magician. Subsequently, the Assyrians were able to make people burn and inflict significant damage on them.


يونس
Yunus Jonah Main articles: Islamic view of Jonah and Jonah 5
Islamic tradition shows that God commanded Yunus (Jonah) to help the people of Nineveh towards righteousness. However, after Nineveh's people refused to listen to God, Yunus became disgruntled and became angry for God. After an incident where Yunus was spared death, he decided to re-commit himself to striving for God, attempting to lead the people of Nineveh to righteousness. But after returning to evil, illicit ways, the Scythians conquered them.[49]


زكريا
Zakariya Zechariah Main articles: Islamic view of Zechariah and Zechariah (priest) 6
A descendant of Süleyman, Zakariya (Zachariah became a patron of Maryam (Mary) the mother of 'Isa. According to the Qur'an, he prayed to God asking for a son, since his sterile wife al-Yashbi could not provide one. God granted his wishes, temporarily lifting his wife's sterility and allowing her to give birth to Yahya (John).[50]


يحيى
Yahya John the Baptist Main articles: Islamic view of John the Baptist and John the Baptist 2
Yahya (John) was cousin to Isa and Islam says that, throughout his lifetime, Yahya captivated audiences with his powerful sermons that preached Abrahamic monotheism. The Qur'an does not mention baptism.


عيسى
Isa Jesus Main articles: Islamic view of Jesus and Jesus 3
God sent one of the highest ranked prophets in Islam, Eisa al-Maseeh, (Jesus the Messiah) to guide the Children of Israel. The Qur'an makes it very clear that in Islam, Jesus is not the begotten (physical) son of God, but rather a nabi and rasul (messenger) of God.

'Isa performed many miracles with the permission of God, for example: raising the dead, creating a bird from clay, talking as an infant. Islamic traditions states that he abstained from drinking alcohol. It also states that he received a revelation, the Injil (Gospel), though according to Islam, it has been distorted. Muslims believe that 'Isa was not crucified, meaning he was not killed on the cross. They believe that Isa was raised up to God and will return to Earth to fight the Dajjal during the time of the Mahdi, however in Quran there is no evidence and clear indication of Isa's return to Earth to fight the Dajjal.


محمد
Muhammed Ahmad أحمد: in the original Gospel and Bible Main article: Muhammed 294
Habib u'l A'zam, Imam u'l Anbiya Sayyidina Muhammed ibn 'Abdullah,(53 B.H-11 A.H; 571-632 AD)[51] ranks as the last prophet in Islam ("seal of the Prophets"). Muslims shun idolatry of any of the prophets, as their messages from God hold the most weight. His father's name was 'Abdullah ibn 'AbdulMuttalib and his mother's name was Amina bint Wahb az-Zuhriyya. Muhammed. Born in Mecca in 571 AD (53 AH), Muhammed spent the first part of his life as a well-travelled merchant. He would often spend his time in the mountains surrounding Mecca in prayer contemplating the situation with the city. At the age of forty, during one of those trips to the mountain, Muhammed began to, despite his illiteracy, receive and recite verses from Allah which today make up the Qur'an. He quickly spread the message he was receiving, converting a few others in the city, including his wife. He is the last (seal) of the prophets with a message to all humanity. When oppression became intolerable for his followers, Muhammed first asked his fellow Muslims to migrate to Medina and later himself migrated to Medina away from the oppressors in Mecca. Muhammad served not just as a prophet, but as a military leader who helped defeat the Meccans in 624 during the Battle of Badr. He continued to lead the Muslims as Islam spread across the Arabian Peninsula. He performed the first hajj in 629 and established Islam as it is still practised by Muslims today. Others continued Muhammad's legacy after his death in 632, having been given the position of caliph (or successor) to Muhammad. The Five Pillars of Islam were established from his Hadiths after Muhammad's death.




[edit] Other prophets
Muslims believe in other prophets other than those mentioned by name in the Qur'an. Many verses in the Quran discuss this:

"And certainly We sent messengers (rasul) before you: there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom We have not mentioned to you..." [Qur'an 40:78]
"For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger..."[Qur'an 16:36]
Muslims believe that God has sent 124,000 (or 224,000) messengers all over the world, as mentioned by the prophet Muhammad in the Sahih Hadith.

Historic narratives suggest there existed a prophet named Khaled bin Sinan in pre-Islamic Arabia.

The Qur'an mentions Al-Imran as the father of Maryam. Al-Khidr is not mentioned by name, but is traditionally assumed to be referred to in Qur'an 18:66. Biblical prophets Danyal (Daniel), Ishaia (Isaiah), Armya (Jeremiah), and Samuel are mentioned by Ibn Kathir in his book as prophets.

Luqman is mentioned in the sura named after him but it is unclear whether he is a prophet or a wali. According to the most wide-spread shiite belief, Luqman was a wiseman, not a prophet nor a wali. The reported news hold that Luqman had a dream, and in that dream he was asked to choose between being a King and a wiseman, and he chose the second.

Numerous other historical figures may rank as prophets, but debate and contention surround this matter. Such figures include: Zoroaster, Gautama Buddha, Socrates,[52] Merlin, Confucius,[53] Krishna,[54] (also mentioned in some books of Hadith) and Rama. However, Muslims will state that there is no way of knowing for sure since they are not mentioned by name in the Qur'an. An argument often used in support of the prophethood of such men is that they came with the word of God, but it was later corrupted, this accounting for the differences between Islam, and the respective religions with which each man is associated. The Hadith and Qur’an support such claims that say that a messenger was sent to every people.


[edit] Maryam mother of 'Isa
Main articles: Maryam and Mary
A few scholars (such as Ibn Hazm)[55] see Maryam as a nabi and a prophetess, since God sent her a message via an angel. The Qur'an, however, does not explicitly state that she is one. According to the Islamic belief, she was a holy woman, but she was not a prophet. In the Qur'an, 'Isa is usually referred to as 'Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary), a matronymic, indicative of Jesus having no father.


[edit] See also
Allah
Table of prophets of Abrahamic religions
Nubuwwah
Prophecy
Nevi'im (Prophets in Judaism)
Major Prophets in the Bible
Minor Prophets in the Bible
Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament
Ilah
Names of God
99 Names of God in the Qur'an
Tawhid
Termagant
Islam
Pillars of Islam
Ka'ba

[edit] Notes
^ See the Qur'an [Qur'an 3:45]
^ a b c d Uri Rubin, Prophets and Prophethood, Encyclopedia of the Qur'an
^ a b A.J. Wensinck, Rasul, Encyclopedia of Islam
^ Strong's ConcordanceS
^ Albert Barnes Under Mal 2:7 and Mal 3:1
^ Heb 3:1, Joh 17:3, Mat 11:10, Mar 1:2, Eph 3:5, Eph 4:11, 1Co 28:12
^ Mat 11:9,10
^ Qur'an 19:56
^ a b c d e f g h i j Qur'an 6:89
^ Qur'an 26:107
^ Qur'an 26:105
^ a b c d e Qur'an 42:13
^ Qur'an 26:125
^ Qur'an 7:65
^ Qur'an 26:143
^ Qur'an 7:73
^ Qur'an 19:41
^ Qur'an 9:70
^ Qur'an 2:124
^ Qur'an 87:19
^ Qur'an 22:43
^ Qur'an 26:162
^ Qur'an 26:160
^ a b Qur'an 19:54
^ a b Qur'an 19:49
^ a b Qur'an 21:73
^ Qur'an 26:178
^ Qur'an 7:85
^ a b Qur'an 19:51
^ Qur'an 53:36
^ Qur'an 43:46
^ Qur'an 19:53
^ Qur'an 17:55
^ Qur'an 37:123
^ Qur'an 37:124
^ Qur'an 37:139
^ Qur'an 10:98
^ Qur'an 3:39
^ Qur'an 19:30
^ Qur'an 4:171
^ Qur'an 57:27
^ Qur'an 61:6
^ a b Qur'an 33:40
^ Qur'an 42:7
^ Qur'an 7:158
^ "A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran"
^ "40-78". Qur'an. www.ahadees.com. Retrieved on 2007-12-14.
^ Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an, [Qur'an 38:47]
^ "Prophet Yunus". The Prophets. Islam101.com. Retrieved on 2006-05-06.
^ "Prophet Zakariyah". The Prophets. Islam101.com. Retrieved on 2006-05-06.
^ Great Muslims Of All Times
^ Ahmad, Tahir (1998). "Greek Philosophy". Revelation, rationality knowledge and truth. Surrey: Islam International Publications. Retrieved on 2008-11-11. "Repeated attempts have been made to pluck him away from the comity of prophets to that of mere philosophers."
^ Confucianism
^ Hinduism
^ Ibn Hazm on women's prophethood
[show]v • d • eProphe



from wiki, so if you are a Muslim and don't agree, feel free to edit and reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_prophet
Reply

August
11-20-2008, 06:52 PM
Sure, we can talk about what makes a true prophet all we want to, but my question is more about how do you view a prophet who you believe is false? Are they automatically a bad person?
Reply

جوري
11-20-2008, 06:57 PM
I don't know.. the Mormon guy came up with a book that is surprisingly alot like the bible, except read in special underware.. I am not sure what is prophetic about that?..

other than that, a prophet and a messenger are different and defined to you above..
you at least have to come up with some miracles..

whereas more of the previous messangers miracles, can no longer be accounted for, the Messanger of Allah swt has an existing miracle with us still, and it is the inimitable Quran...

Mormons are as misguided as the mainstrem christians, I don't really differentiate between them, whether they follow Paul or John, or max or Harry, it makes no difference, they have far strayed from what Muslims know as Jesus -Isa(PBUH)

so I don't view them as bad.. I don't think anyone intentionally wants to follow a path that they believe will lead them to hell.. I just think of them as unfortunate souls who have gone astray!
Reply

YusufNoor
11-20-2008, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Sure, we can talk about what makes a true prophet all we want to, but my question is more about how do you view a prophet who you believe is false? Are they automatically a bad person?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

well let's see. how about Paul/Saul of Tarsus?

1) did he lie? for whatever reason, i believe so!

2) was he just crazy. it's a distinct possibility!

3) did he have some experience and then convince himself that he heard instruction from God? i believe that this IS a fair view!

as for the others, no need to give them much though! L Ron Hubbard brought us Return to Forever and people seem to like the Choir! that's enough thought for them!

:w:
Reply

Trumble
11-20-2008, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Then how do you view them? You're a Buddhist, so obviously you don't believe that the Muslim or Mormon prophets were speaking for God, so why do you believe they did what they did?
Actually, I tend towards a view that the 'direct' form of religious experience is pretty much universal; all that differs is it's interpretation. I also, of course, have views regarding which interpretions are 'right' and which are 'wrong', but I'm happy enough to accept such judgements must always be largely subjective. The "my prophet is genuine, yours is fake" seems merely indicitive of a lack of any remotely convincing explanation of why X million/billion people are right in their pick of prophets while another X million/billion people are wrong.

There are exceptions, of course. Hubbard is an obvious one to me, and probably most here.. but even then obviously Scientologists would disagree.
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-22-2008, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, not if the choices are restricted to 'liar', 'crazy' or 'delusional'. You may decide on one of those in the end, of course, but you dismiss 'four' (which should be 'one'!) far too easily - that they were none of those things.

It simply isn't enough to say I am not a muslim, Mormon or whatever, and your first task before assigning labels to prophets should be to give serious consideration to their messages.
There are other possibilities as well. Such as 5 - the prophet never existed or never claimed to be a prophet (Islam has more against this one than Christianity)

I see it as Lord, Liar, Lunatic, Legend.

There are probably more possibilities than these four though.
Reply

جوري
11-22-2008, 06:28 PM
Everything is possible indeed, as is the burden of proof to substnatiate it

Pyg is a tax evader--pyg is a glutton--Pyg panders commercial sex workers---pyg a homophile with an internet site for human trafficking---pyg a yokelish oaf... indeed all possible..

the next step is to put ones money where the mouth is!
Reply

Amadeus85
11-22-2008, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths? Obviously, I'm not Muslim, so I don't think Muhammed was a prophet. I'm not Mormon, so I don't think Joseph Smith was a prophet. I'm not a Scientologist, so I don't think L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet.:D I could do the same for a hundred other religions, but those are the ones that came off the top of my head. This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?
Prophets who are not true for You, shouldnt bother You. Just like they dont bother me. I think that it is a good advice.
Reply

be sensible
11-22-2008, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Sure, we can talk about what makes a true prophet all we want to, but my question is more about how do you view a prophet who you believe is false? Are they automatically a bad person?
Simplest way I can say to you is to look at it in a logical way let me ask you how do you normally tell whether a person is telling the truth. What sort of things do you look for before coming to an answer?

For me I look at the context of the message what they are trying to tell me and why they are telling me the message I would look at the purpose behind it. We don’t say things without having reasons or without having any purpose. Of course not everything or everyone always speaks the truth so how do we differentiate we would look at the person his characters his attributes who is telling us the message. For eg if my younger brother tells me something its not likely that I will take him so seriously as he is younger than me but than again that does not mean what ever he is trying to tell me I should just ignore him. Next step would be to find out what his actual message is and whether there is any point in what he is saying.

So therefore it is important that you understand the characteristic of the prophets and their message. So talking about what makes a true prophet is the base line what makes a true prophet. In order to find the underlying of problems we need to look at root of the cause instead of base line. In order to understand the end of problems we have to look into the beginning. I think if you really want answers you will need understand different messages of the prophets and compare and contrast the difference and apply your intellect and logic to the message.

You cant judge something or some one without the full knowledge. If you have read up on perspective religion and how each religion began maybe that would answer some your question for instance to understanding the message the prophet has sent

have you read holy books of the prophets the authentic versions if you have read it than you will realise certain things which will lead you to question whether a human can actually create such a message.

If you were talking about few words of message than that would have been different story. The message our prophet has sent to us we believe is the absolute truth if you read the quran you will realise no human could have created such message with out imperfection. If you look at the scientific evidence which has just been discovered now it makes you wonder how is human have the power to know such things when the scientist have only discovered those things now.

Our prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h was a man who could not read or write so how could he have been able to write such a great book. Also im sure you will agree that no human is perfect enough to create a piece of work without an error which is the holy Quran.

Sometimes at certain things we have to look outside the box why would some one want to portay something which is not right without seeing the benefit. You have to ask your self why would such prophets dedicate their life and souls and go through burden and pain if their belief and their message were not true. Why would some one invoke working so hard towards something without a benefit at the end.
Reply

horizon
11-23-2008, 03:06 PM
Then how do you view them? You're a Buddhist, so obviously you don't believe that the Muslim or Mormon prophets were speaking for God, so why do you believe they did what they did?
before going to the topic of prophets ,one need to be rational enough to ccept the existance of Allah.once that is done then we should realise that there is a purpose for our creation.This life is a test, and the test is to worship Allah the way he wants us to.
and Allah conveys this message through a prophet.Allah has sent many prophets before Muhammad ,to every nation and tribe saying "worship Allah alone" and we believe in all of them.all of them were sent to their ppl and spoke in their tongue,after these prophets left their ppl on a clear path these ppl deviated following their desires as time passed and Allah followed them with another prophet. Allah says that Muhammad was sent to the whole of humanity and is the last prophet with whom he completed the way in which He wants His slaves to submit and worship him ie.ISLAM.
No other prophet ever was claimed by anyone to be A PROPHET SENT TO THE WHOLE OF HUMAN KIND AND IS THE LAST PROPHET EXCEPT MUHAMMAD.
and atleast for this u need to look at the SPEECH OF ALLAH ie. THE QUR"AN REVEALED THROUGH MUHAMMAD WITH AN UNBIASED approach .AND ATLEAST FOR THIS REASON MUHAMMAD(SAW) DESERVES NOT TO BE COMPARED WITH OTHER PROPHETS(since practically they are of no benifit to us. more over what the ppl claim what their prophet preached does not mean that that was his original message, man is a strange creature, he will twist probably anything into what he wants,for eg interpreting a saying of a prophet to suit their ideology eg Jesus (pbuh) who never claimed divinity.)
Reply

aamirsaab
11-23-2008, 09:31 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths?
Well being a muslim, I believe in all of the prophets. Though, I define a prophet as someone who was sent by God, so that's Ron Hubbard out of the window already!

...This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?
Judge them on their actions and teachings. Look at Moses - he freed thousands of slaves! Jesus - the messiah and quite possibly the master of positivity, kindness and generosity (joint with, in my opinion, Muhammad), Noah - the guy who we all OWE a big favour too (remember that big ol' flood?), Muhammad - his followers and himself, beacons of honesty, purity and justice for all (remember pre-Islamic arabia AND Europe? Not a pretty site - it took an entire religion to clean that mess up!)

If you ask me, there's no trouble with prophets at all.
Reply

Follower
11-24-2008, 01:44 PM
As I have been studying the Quran for about 4 years now there is a very big possibility that the Quran has been interpreted wrong. Not translated wrong but interpreted wrong from the it was revealed by Mohammad.
Reply

جوري
11-24-2008, 05:01 PM
^^ oh? How so, pls do share your enlightnment....
Reply

K.Venugopal
11-24-2008, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
As I have been studying the Quran for about 4 years now there is a very big possibility that the Quran has been interpreted wrong. Not translated wrong but interpreted wrong from the it was revealed by Mohammad.
New interpretations of the Quran will emerge in due course to adapt it to the increasing popularity of the ancient Hindu vision of Advaita - the vision that says all existence is one. In fact, Sufism is Advaita expressed by the Muslim mystics of Persia (and maybe Arabia?). Why, Sufism may have even ante-dated Islam. Sufism may well be the future of Islam if the call given by Islam to transcend idol worship reaches its logical conclusion - we cannot have an Allah separate from us. We have to internalize Allah and achieve the Advaita stage, where alone idol worship ends.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-24-2008, 06:42 PM
No, k.venugopal - persian sufism strays from the teachings of the Prophetic guidance;

http://idawah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=761
http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...m-details.html
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-26-2008, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Everything is possible indeed, as is the burden of proof to substnatiate it

Pyg is a tax evader--pyg is a glutton--Pyg panders commercial sex workers---pyg a homophile with an internet site for human trafficking---pyg a yokelish oaf... indeed all possible..

the next step is to put ones money where the mouth is!
Indeed. And all of these little slanders against me would have no evidence to back them up. Just like the claims about the prophet. Good analogy.
Reply

جوري
11-26-2008, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Indeed. And all of these little slanders against me would have no evidence to back them up. Just like the claims about the prophet. Good analogy.
It is great how you are so adept at paraphrasing!
analogy aside-- I wouldn't put you in the same categories as any honorable historical figure though- unfounded as your claims -- and no matter your disenchantment with them.. character always prevails over rumors (good or bad)
history and age old religious text is a done deal-- and your opinion and personal interpretation too insignificant in the scheme of it all to matter!...


cheers
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-26-2008, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
It is great how you are so adept at paraphrasing!
What did I paraphrase?

I wouldn't put you in the same categories as any honorable historical figure though
I love you too. And when you try to insult me it is very cute.

- unfounded as your claims -- and no matter your disenchantment with them..
What claims?

and your opinion and personal interpretation too insignificant in the scheme of it all to matter!...
So why do you feel compelled to comment on them and elicit dialogue? If you didn't snipe at people maybe they'd go away.
Reply

جوري
11-26-2008, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What did I paraphrase?
inclusion impediment?

I love you too. And when you try to insult me it is very cute.
You should get out more!
What claims?
scroll to your post on the previous page!



So why do you feel compelled to comment on them and elicit dialogue? If you didn't snipe at people maybe they'd go away.
You can start now, let's see how it works!

cheers
Reply

Follower
12-04-2008, 03:51 AM
Do muslims consider their prophets sinless? All people are both saints and sinners!!

There is the huge possiblity that in Mohammad's case the Quran has been misinterpreted. If you read it carefully alongside the Holy Bible it becomes a study guide for the Bible.

I remember reading that at the time of Mohammad there was not yet a Holy Bible written in Arabic. The Arabs needed help in this area because they were so pagan oriented.
Reply

جوري
12-04-2008, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Do muslims consider their prophets sinless? All people are both saints and sinners!!
Prophets make mistakes.. sinning as they do in the bible, is a different story all together.. and is an innovation of the scribes as is most of the bible -- they are chosen for a reason!

REMOVING DOUBTS ABOUT THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE PROPHETS

Introduction
Accusations of the Bible against the Prophets
The Qur’an absolves the Prophets from all the accusations against them in the Bible and exalts them


Introduction

There are some verses in the Qur’an which seem, at first sight, to reprimand certain Prophets for some of their actions, or which give the image that a Prophet may commit a sin in the normal usage of the word. Before clarifying specific examples in this respect in order to remove all the doubts about the infallibility of the Prophets, it may be appropriate to acquit the Prophets of the calumnies against them of the present versions of the Bible. These disgusting calumnies, whose existence is inconceivable in an uncorrupted Divine Scripture, are certain, like many other additions and distortions, to have found their way into the Bible in later times.




Accusations of the Bible against the Prophets

In the book of Genesis, 19, 30-38, it is written that the two daughters of the Prophet Lot got their father to drink wine and then lay with him so as to become pregnant by him. This is obviously the most disgusting of calumnies that could be uttered or written against a Prophet. Lot’s people of the cities of Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed by God because of their immoralities, and Lot and his daughters were, according to the Bible itself, the only ones to be spared from that destruction on account of their belief, good conduct and decency. The crime of which the Bible accuses the Prophet Lot is worse than what his people were destroyed for.

In the book of Genesis, chapter 38, a story is mentioned in which Jacob’s son, Judah, is supposed to have fornicated with the wife of his son. The woman gave birth, as a result of this fornication, to twin boys, and some of the Israelite Prophets were descended from them.

It is inconceivable that a Prophet should have committed fornication. Our Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, explicitly declared that there is not a single case of fornication in his lineage back to Adam. He also stated that all the Prophets are brothers descended from the same father. Our Prophet is a descendant of Abraham, upon him be peace, as were Judah and the other Israelite Prophets, so it is impossible for any of them to be the child of an illicit intercourse, or — God forbid such a thought! — to have fornicated.

In the second book of Samuel, chapter 11, it is written that the Prophet David fell in love with the wife of one of his commanders and slept with her without marriage. According to the Bible, he also got the commander to be put in the front line where the fighting was fiercest and, after the death of the commander, he married his wife.

David, upon him be peace, is a Prophet who was given a Divine Scripture — the Psalms — and who is praised in the Qur’an for his sincere and profound devotion to God:

Be patient at what they say, and remember Our servant David, the man of strength and abilities. For he ever turned to God in sincere devotion and submission. It was We that made the mountains declare, in unison with him, Our praises, at eventide and at the break of day, and the birds gathered (in assemblies): all with him did turn to Him (in profound devotion). We strengthened his kingdom and gave him wisdom and sound judgement (in speech and decision.) (Sad, 38.17-20)

Though a king, he lived a simple life by his own labour. He cried much out of fear of God and used to fast every other day. This kind of fast was recommended by our Prophet to some of his Companions who sought the most rewarding type of supererogatory fasting. Is it at all conceivable that such a noble Prophet could fornicate and plot the death of his commander in order to take his wife?

In the first Book of Kings, chapter 11, Solomon is blamed for having married many foreign women from the nations about which the Lord had told the Israelites, ‘You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods,’ and therefore of doing such evil as following the gods and goddesses (idols) of some other tribes.





The Qur’an absolves the Prophets from all the accusations against them in the Bible and exalts them

If the Qur’an had not been sent, we could not have known the truth about the previous Prophets. The Qur’an exalts them all as being sincere, devout and thankful servants of God. As it freed Jesus from the deification of Christians and the denial of the Jews and glorified God from Christians’ attributing to Him sons and daughters, so too, it acquitted all the Israelite and non-Israelite Prophets of having committed the disgusting sins attributed to them in the Bible. It mentions Jesus as a spirit from God breathed into the Virgin Mary, Abraham as an intimate friend of God, Moses as one who spoke to God and Solomon as a king and a Prophet who prayed to Him humbly: O my Lord! So order me that I may be grateful for your favours, which You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You; and admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants (al-Naml, 27.19). So, Solomon, besides never having worshipped anything other than God, never committed a sin and, despite being the greatest and most powerful of kings that ever lived, remained a humble servant of God until his death.

In addition to such calumnies against the Prophets, the Bible is full of assertions unbecoming to a Scripture. For example, it writes that although the Prophet Isaac wanted to bless his older son Esau, he mistakenly blessed Jacob instead, as a result of his wife Rebaka’s trick (Genesis, 27). Also, the Bible claims that the Prophet Jacob wrestled with God, who appeared to him in the form of a man (Genesis, 32).


http://www.ymsite.com/books/infinitelight/infpg35.html

There is the huge possiblity that in Mohammad's case the Quran has been misinterpreted. If you read it carefully alongside the Holy Bible it becomes a study guide for the Bible.
The Quran is nothing like the bible.. rather unfair to even compare them.. books about the sayings of Jesus if any might be made comprable to hadiths.. but even hadith has a system of Isnad of tawatur and uhad, rendering the weak ones null.. where as in Christianity any little thing a so-called holy person does becomes a way of life, like 'st. Anthony' and his pigs

http://www.h-net.org/~nilas/seasons/stanthony.html
I remember reading that at the time of Mohammad there was not yet a Holy Bible written in Arabic. The Arabs needed help in this area because they were so pagan oriented.
That is great then perhaps some of you can forgo the route of how the Quran copies from the bible, or Greek literature, or Jews or or or...

you can only make so many exculpations before the truth becomes obvious!

the Quran is a book like no other.. whereas most Messengers took their miracles with them, prophet Mohammed's PBUH miracle withstands the test of time!

Media Tags are no longer supported

show me a chapter that reads like this, that rhymes like this, that contemplates like this, that reasons like this, that transcends the test of time like this from your bible?
Reply

Woodrow
12-04-2008, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths? Obviously, I'm not Muslim, so I don't think Muhammed was a prophet. I'm not Mormon, so I don't think Joseph Smith was a prophet. I'm not a Scientologist, so I don't think L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet.:D I could do the same for a hundred other religions, but those are the ones that came off the top of my head. This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?
I notice you list your belief as Christian, did you know that us Muslims follow all of the same Prophets(PBUT) you do?

I guess that means Christ5ians are only 90% as crazy as we are, they follow one less liar and one less person who convinced himself he had heard the word of God(swt). I doubt if you will think that is true or a fair assumption, neither do I.

The only difference between us is you believe the Bible of today is what was given to Mankind by God(swt) We believe it is a rewritten version filled with mis statement and out right deceit perpetrated by Paul, the Greeks and the roman Church and that the Qur'an came as a correction of those errors.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I notice you list your belief as Christian, did you know that us Muslims follow all of the same Prophets(PBUT) you do?

I guess that means Christ5ians are only 90% as crazy as we are, they follow one less liar and one less person who convinced himself he had heard the word of God(swt). I doubt if you will think that is true or a fair assumption, neither do I.

The only difference between us is you believe the Bible of today is what was given to Mankind by God(swt) We believe it is a rewritten version filled with mis statement and out right deceit perpetrated by Paul, the Greeks and the roman Church and that the Qur'an came as a correction of those errors.
But Woodrow, most Christians don't actually follow the prophets of the Bible at all. For example, most Christians explicitly ignore almost everything Moses commanded in the BIble, including (but not limited to)
• stoning disobedient children
• stoning nonvirgin brides to death on the doorsteps of their fathers' houses
• killing unbelievers and blasphemers
• owning and capturing slaves

I mean, it seems like most Christians haven't even read the Old Testament.

Secondly, Woodrow, do you think Islam is the only religion to incorporate old religions' prophets into itself? Mormons did the exact same thing. Just as Muslims turned Jesus into an Allah-worshipping Docetic non-deity, Mormons turned Jesus into a Native-American-saving frontiersman.

Most cults worth their salt incorporate older religions' prophets—it's called "syncretism." Heaven's Gate's leader claimed to be channeling Moses, Jesus, and Buddha. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese doomsday cult, also had a leader claiming to be the embodiment of these past prophets (who undoubtably supported his cult, according to him). In ancient times, the Romans and Greeks and Babylonians brought the gods of cultures they conquered into their own pantheon; the Egyptians and Hindus incorporated many elements and gods from neighboring or rival cultures into their own religions.

In fact, this is exactly what the early Christian cults did. Hence the stuff about John the Baptist actually being a follower of Jesus (what a great way to get John's followers on board with your new cult!) Paul, judging from his letters, did the same thing with Jesus' pre-existing cult, twisting it to bend to his authority. The ancient Hebrews also incorporated older cults into their religion—most of the myths in the Bible are retellings of older Akkadian and Babylonian myths (for example, the Flood story parellels earlier flood stories in the Babylonian Atrahasis epic and the epic of Gilgamesh, with many of the same details). It is also relatively clear that Yahweh's early cult borrows many elements from the cult of the Babylonian moon god, Sin (including Shabat days and the importance of Mt. Sinai).

Every new religion is a "version 2.0" of the previous religion in an area—revised prophets included with the update.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-04-2008, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
But Woodrow, most Christians don't actually follow the prophets of the Bible at all. For example, most Christians explicitly ignore almost everything Moses commanded in the BIble, including (but not limited to)
• stoning disobedient children
• stoning nonvirgin brides to death on the doorsteps of their fathers' houses
• killing unbelievers and blasphemers
• owning and capturing slaves

I mean, it seems like most Christians haven't even read the Old Testament.

Secondly, Woodrow, do you think Islam is the only religion to incorporate old religions' prophets into itself? Mormons did the exact same thing. Just as Muslims turned Jesus into an Allah-worshipping Docetic non-deity, Mormons turned Jesus into a Native-American-saving frontiersman.

Most cults worth their salt incorporate older religions' prophets—it's called "syncretism." Heaven's Gate's leader claimed to be channeling Moses, Jesus, and Buddha. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese doomsday cult, also had a leader claiming to be the embodiment of these past prophets (who undoubtably supported his cult, according to him). In ancient times, the Romans and Greeks and Babylonians brought the gods of cultures they conquered into their own pantheon; the Egyptians and Hindus incorporated many elements and gods from neighboring or rival cultures into their own religions.

In fact, this is exactly what the early Christian cults did. Hence the stuff about John the Baptist actually being a follower of Jesus (what a great way to get John's followers on board with your new cult!) Paul, judging from his letters, did the same thing with Jesus' pre-existing cult, twisting it to bend to his authority. The ancient Hebrews also incorporated older cults into their religion—most of the myths in the Bible are retellings of older Akkadian and Babylonian myths (for example, the Flood story parellels earlier flood stories in the Babylonian Atrahasis epic and the epic of Gilgamesh, with many of the same details). It is also relatively clear that Yahweh's early cult borrows many elements from the cult of the Babylonian moon god, Sin (including Shabat days and the importance of Mt. Sinai).

Every new religion is a "version 2.0" of the previous religion in an area—revised prophets included with the update.

I respectfully disagree with your theory.

One of my reasons is simply : Prophecy

If they were making this up, how come there are so many prophecies that have been fulfilled by each prophet? Muhammad was even foretold by the Bible.

Also : Miracles

THe prophets all had supernatural miracles.

Moses: Red Sea ( the Quran foretold the discovery of the Pharoes body too, which has occurred)

Jesus: healing, raising dead

Muhammad : various ones, most importantly the Quran
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 06:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by be sensible
Simplest way I can say to you is to look at it in a logical way let me ask you how do you normally tell whether a person is telling the truth. What sort of things do you look for before coming to an answer?
1. Has the person in question claimed to have ridden a flying donkey up into the sky?

2. Actually, I think #1 ought to do it.
Reply

K.Venugopal
12-04-2008, 06:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
1. Has the person in question claimed to have ridden a flying donkey up into the sky?

2. Actually, I think #1 ought to do it.
Not a donkey, a horse.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 06:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I respectfully disagree with your theory.

One of my reasons is simply : Prophecy

If they were making this up, how come there are so many prophecies that have been fulfilled by each prophet? Muhammad was even foretold by the Bible.
Right. Everything was foretold by the Bible, you just have to interpret it correctly. Just like Nostradamus.

My favorite is when the Bible explicitly fortells that the city of Tyre will be permanently destroyed. (Google Earth disagrees)

Also : Miracles

THe prophets all had supernatural miracles.

Moses: Red Sea ( the Quran foretold the discovery of the Pharoes body too, which has occurred)

Jesus: healing, raising dead

Muhammad : various ones, most importantly the Quran
You forgot:

• Krishna: had magic weapons, fought armies of demons, was an avatar of the god Vishnu

• Sargon of Akkad: born of the gods, magically survived floating down a river in a reed basket as a child

• Hammurabi: gods personally handed him his set of laws, gave him power to conquer all lands

• Rama: used magic weapons, could shoot magic "astras" as powerful as nuclear explosions, was actually avatar of Vishnu

• Hanuman: was a talking monkey, could grow as big as a mountain and pick up and throw mountains

• Sidharta Guatema (aka the Buddha): achieved enlightenment, fought and controlled demons

• Zoroaster: directly communed with the god Ahura Mazda, talked to angels, had control over various elements

• Roman Emperor Vespasian: magically healed a cripple and a blind person, according to the Roman historian Seutonius

• Paul: could magically curse people and raise the dead

• Many Catholic saints had magic powers, such as the ability to control weather and the flights of birds

• Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism: performed healings and talked to angels

And there are more modern examples than I can even keep track of. The Heaven's Gate cult claimed to be in contact with UFO's. Uri Geller has psychic powers. Jim Jones was a prophet of God. Aum Shinrikyo's leader also had magic powers. Millions of people believe they have been contacted by aliens, millions more believe in psychics and astrologers. Primitive tribes on islands in the Pacific form cargo cults, where they construct wooden radios and build fake airplane landing strips so they can magically summon airplanes. Rastafarians believe the Emperor of Ethiopia was a prophet of God and had magic powers.

The followers of all these cults will swear by the truth of their prophets' powers, just like the hadith writers did with Muhammad's.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 06:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Not a donkey, a horse.
Eh. Al-Buraq sounds more like a donkey than a horse to me (according to Bukhari, it was larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule).

But I can see how one would confuse Muhammad's magical steed with Pegasus.
Reply

Woodrow
12-04-2008, 06:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
But Woodrow, most Christians don't actually follow the prophets of the Bible at all. For example, most Christians explicitly ignore almost everything Moses commanded in the BIble, including (but not limited to)
• stoning disobedient children
• stoning nonvirgin brides to death on the doorsteps of their fathers' houses
• killing unbelievers and blasphemers
• owning and capturing slaves

I mean, it seems like most Christians haven't even read the Old Testament.

Secondly, Woodrow, do you think Islam is the only religion to incorporate old religions' prophets into itself? Mormons did the exact same thing. Just as Muslims turned Jesus into an Allah-worshipping Docetic non-deity, Mormons turned Jesus into a Native-American-saving frontiersman.

Most cults worth their salt incorporate older religions' prophets—it's called "syncretism." Heaven's Gate's leader claimed to be channeling Moses, Jesus, and Buddha. Aum Shinrikyo, the Japanese doomsday cult, also had a leader claiming to be the embodiment of these past prophets (who undoubtably supported his cult, according to him). In ancient times, the Romans and Greeks and Babylonians brought the gods of cultures they conquered into their own pantheon; the Egyptians and Hindus incorporated many elements and gods from neighboring or rival cultures into their own religions.

In fact, this is exactly what the early Christian cults did. Hence the stuff about John the Baptist actually being a follower of Jesus (what a great way to get John's followers on board with your new cult!) Paul, judging from his letters, did the same thing with Jesus' pre-existing cult, twisting it to bend to his authority. The ancient Hebrews also incorporated older cults into their religion—most of the myths in the Bible are retellings of older Akkadian and Babylonian myths (for example, the Flood story parellels earlier flood stories in the Babylonian Atrahasis epic and the epic of Gilgamesh, with many of the same details). It is also relatively clear that Yahweh's early cult borrows many elements from the cult of the Babylonian moon god, Sin (including Shabat days and the importance of Mt. Sinai).

Every new religion is a "version 2.0" of the previous religion in an area—revised prophets included with the update.
I think you are correct in what you said. I don't think you went far enough. Although I agree with what you say, none of that rules out Muhammad(PBUH) as being the final Prophet(PBUT)

It is my belief that Muhammad(PBUH) was a true prophet and that He is the final Prophet(PBUH)

I base my belief upon what I have sought out myself, not by anything I was taught by others. If I had followed the wishes and plans of what I was taught I'd be a jolly fat monk sitting in a monastery today. Or possibly even a diocesan priest with dreams of being a Cardinal or even Pope.

Of course Islam incorporated old truths, The Qur'an was not a new message, it is a complete understanding of what was taught and given in the past. The truth is the truth, no matter when it was given or who it was given to.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 06:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I think you are correct in what you said. I don't think you went far enough. Although I agree with what you say, none of that rules out Muhammad(PBUH) as being the final Prophet(PBUT)
I suppose not, but by the same logic it doesn't rule out the leader of Aum Shinrikyo being the final prophet either.

It does rule out any claim that Islam is somehow unique in incorporating previous prophets. It's not unique, it's savvy religious marketing.

It is my belief that Muhammad(PBUH) was a true prophet and that He is the final Prophet(PBUH)
Well, that explains why your way of life is listed as "Muslim." :)

I base my belief upon what I have sought out myself, not by anything I was taught by others. If I had followed the wishes and plans of what I was taught I'd be a jolly fat monk sitting in a monastery today. Or possibly even a diocesan priest with dreams of being a Cardinal or even Pope.
I can understand this. I think it's easier to be a religious Muslim than a religious Christian. You don't have to rationalize away quite as much nonsense, like the Trinity or the Old Testament.

Though it sounds like you've always been religious. Ever thought of giving atheism a try? The benefits aren't as good, but you totally get to go around murdering people like in Grand Theft Auto. :)

Of course Islam incorporated old truths, The Qur'an was not a new message, it is a complete understanding of what was taught and given in the past. The truth is the truth, no matter when it was given or who it was given to.
But Mormons say the same exact thing about the Book of Mormon. Scientologists say the same thing about Dianetics, claiming it completes the spirituality first explored by religions of the past. The early Christian church claimed the same thing about the New Testament, saying it complemented and completed the Old Testament. And the early Hebrews probably said the same thing when they stole their creation and flood myths from the Babylonians and switched the names of the gods around.

Every religion incorporates "old truths." It's how new religions get people from the old religions to join. You can basically understand syncretism as an early form of marketing.
Reply

August
12-04-2008, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I notice you list your belief as Christian, did you know that us Muslims follow all of the same Prophets(PBUT) you do?

I guess that means Christ5ians are only 90% as crazy as we are, they follow one less liar and one less person who convinced himself he had heard the word of God(swt). I doubt if you will think that is true or a fair assumption, neither do I.

The only difference between us is you believe the Bible of today is what was given to Mankind by God(swt) We believe it is a rewritten version filled with mis statement and out right deceit perpetrated by Paul, the Greeks and the roman Church and that the Qur'an came as a correction of those errors.
How then do you view a group such as the Mormons? They also claim that the Bible is full of errors and omissions, and say that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon to bring back the "fullness of the Gospel." I think the Mormon case somewhat less rational than the Islamic one, but argues similar along similar lines.
Reply

Woodrow
12-04-2008, 06:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
I suppose not, but by the same logic it doesn't rule out the leader of Aum Shinrikyo being the final prophet either.

It does rule out any claim that Islam is somehow unique in incorporating previous prophets. It's not unique, it's savvy religious marketing.


Well, that explains why your way of life is listed as "Muslim." :)
You get 10 points for observation skills.


I can understand this. I think it's easier to be a religious Muslim than a religious Christian. You don't have to rationalize away quite as much nonsense, like the Trinity or the Old Testament.
The need to accept full responsibility for all of my actions and thoughts and words, carries a bit of a burden. I can't get by with someday claiming "That is what the Imam told me." I have no choice, I am commanded and obligated to seek proof of all I believe and to question sufficiently to know that it is my own choice to believe as I do, and not the result of teaching by a man.

Though it sounds like you've always been religious. Ever thought of giving atheism a try? The benefits aren't as good, but you totally get to go around murdering people like in Grand Theft Auto. :)
When I left Christianity 30 or so years ago, I gave being an agnostic a serious shot, although I told everybody I was Buddhist, it seemed more politically correct. Never could make it to atheist. I guess I don't have sufficient faith to believe this universe was not designed by an intelligent being. Seem like it would take a tremendous amount of faith in science to be an athiest, I just can't follow blind faith I like solid evidence that I have investigated to my satisfaction.


But Mormons say the same exact thing about the Book of Mormon. Scientologists say the same thing about Dianetics, claiming it completes the spirituality first explored by religions of the past. The early Christian church claimed the same thing about the New Testament, saying it complemented and completed the Old Testament. And the early Hebrews probably said the same thing when they stole their creation and flood myths from the Babylonians and switched the names of the gods around.
I respect a Mormons right to believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet. But, I grew up in the New England area and still remember the stories about Young Joe smith and how his shenanigans got the family kicked out of Massachusets and they settled in Elmira NY. I personally can not believe Joseph Smith could have been a prophet and have led the life he lived. Also, since I am convinced Islam is the truth, I am solid in my knowing Muhammad(PBUH) was the last prophet, so any alleged prophet after Him is a moot point.

Every religion incorporates "old truths." It's how new religions get people from the old religions to join. You can basically understand syncretism as an early form of marketing.
True, but who gains in terms of Islam. We do not support any central church or clergy. We are very much on our own and owe no allegiance to any church or organization or religious authority. We owe allegiance to Allaah(swt) alone and have no middleman or corporate structure that dictates to us or who we support financially.
Reply

جوري
12-04-2008, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
I suppose not, but by the same logic it doesn't rule out the leader of Aum Shinrikyo being the final prophet either.
Aum Shinrikyo is a terrorist organization whose goal is to take over Japan and then the world; based on a religion founded in 1987 that combines elements of Buddhism with Christianity-- perhaps you can set a criteria as to how one defines a prophet or a religion before undertaking the daunting task of choosing a correct one whether Dawkins or the Mennonites?
It does rule out any claim that Islam is somehow unique in incorporating previous prophets. It's not unique, it's savvy religious marketing.
What is there to gain by marketing something to folks who didn't want to accept.. and a man who never slept on a full stomach three days in a row, slept on palm leaves, and died with his Armour pawned to a Jew from poverty?




But Mormons say the same exact thing about the Book of Mormon. Scientologists say the same thing about Dianetics, claiming it completes the spirituality first explored by religions of the past. The early Christian church claimed the same thing about the New Testament, saying it complemented and completed the Old Testament. And the early Hebrews probably said the same thing when they stole their creation and flood myths from the Babylonians and switched the names of the gods around.
Book of the Mormon looks alot like the bible.. care to show us how the Quran is like the bible or any book that preceded or proceeded it in terms, of rhyme, reason transcendence laws governing politics, economics, social structure, inheritance etc coming years apart and still have it read entirely like a poem?


I'd like to see inheritance mathematics written poetically in some other book as such mentioned in chapter 4 and sparks 'inheritance mathematics' and as have come from an illiterate messenger--

One should work to falsify a religion through logic after all?

Islamic
Inheritance Mathematics
Description:
This lesson describes how a woman’s estate is divided among her beneficiaries according to Islamic inheritance law. The method involves adding and subtracting fractions which represent the parts of the woman’s estate, keeping in mind that sons receive twice as much as daughters, and a stranger’s share must be paid first.

Curriculum Objectives:
To reinforce the skills of fraction addition, subtraction and multiplication.

To introduce students to complex problem solving.

To expose students to a mathematical process from a non-European culture.

Key Words:
algebra

inheritance

fractions

problem solving

representations

Suggested Use:
Islamic Inheritance Mathematics could be used in a basic skills mathematics, prealgebra or algebra course to use complex problem solving to reinforce the concepts and skills of fraction addition, subtraction and multiplication.



ISLAMIC INHERITANCE
MATHEMATICS
A major Arab mathematician named Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi wrote an influential textbook in about 820 called Hisab al-jabr w’al-muqabala (Calculation by Restoration and Reduction) that is known today as the Algebra. This book was the starting point for Arab work in algebra, and it is credited for giving the subject its name. Al-Khwarizmi was probably born in Soviet Central Asia but he did most of his work in algebra in Baghdad, where he was an astronomer and head of the library at the House of Wisdom.

Al-Kwarizmi was a Muslim and the second half of his book Algebra contains problems about the Islamic law of inheritance. According to the law, when a woman dies her husband receives one-quarter of her estate, and the rest is divided among her children so that a son receives twice as much as a daughter. If the woman chooses to leave money to a stranger, the stranger cannot receive more than one-third of the estate without the approval of the heirs. If only some of the heirs approve, the approving heirs must pay the stranger out of their own shares the amount that exceeds one-third of the estate. Whether approved by all heirs or not, the stranger’s share must be paid before the rest is shared out among the heirs.

Here is an example problem from Al-Kwarizmi’s Algebra:

A woman dies leaving a husband, a son, and three daughters. She also leaves a bequest consisting of 1/8 + 1/7 of her estate to a stranger. She leaves $224,000. Calculate the shares of her estate that go to each of her beneficiaries.

Solution: The stranger receives 1/8 + 1/7 = 15/56 of the estate, leaving 41/56 to be shared out among the family.

The husband receives one-quarter of what remains, or 1/4 of 41/56 = 41/224.

The son and the three daughters receive their shares in the ratio 2:1:1:1 so the son’s share is two fifths of the estate after the stranger and husband have been given their bequests and each daughter’s share is one fifth. (2+1+1+1=5).

If the total estate is $224,000, the shares received by each beneficiary will be:

Stranger: 15/56 of $224,000 = $60,000.

Husband: 41/224 of $224,000 = $41,000.

Son: 2/5 of ($224,000 - 101,000) = $49,200.

Each daughter: 1/5 of ($224,000 - 101,000) = $24,600.

TOTAL = $224,000.



YOUR PROJECT:
1. Solve the following Islamic law inheritance problem.

A woman’s estate totals $72,000. She dies leaving a husband, two sons and two daughters. In her will, she leaves a bequest of 1/9 + 1/6 of her estate to a stranger. Calculate how much of her estate each of her beneficiaries will receive.

2. Write out all of your calculations.

3. Check to make sure your beneficiary sums equal the total estate.

References: Islamic Inheritance Mathematics
Gullberg, Jan. (1997). Mathematics: From the Birth of Numbers. New York: W.W. Norton & Company.

Joseph, George Gheverghese. (1991). The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics. London: Penguin Books.

Nelson, D., Joseph, G. and Williams, J. (1993). Multicultural Mathematics: Teaching Mathematics from a Global Perspective. New York: Oxford University Press.



http://www.deltacollege.edu/dept/basicmath/Islamic.htm
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
When I left Christianity 30 or so years ago, I gave being an agnostic a serious shot, although I told everybody I was Buddhist, it seemed more politically correct. Never could make it to atheist. I guess I don't have sufficient faith to believe this universe was not designed by an intelligent being. Seem like it would take a tremendous amount of faith in science to be an athiest, I just can't follow blind faith I like solid evidence that I have investigated to my satisfaction.
I hear this from a lot of religious people, and it always confuses me.

If you have difficulty believing the universe has always existed on its own, then how does asserting the existence of a God help? You've simply moved the goal-post—how could this God have always existed? If the universe must have been created, then who created God? And if your answer is "God needs no creator," then why can't I just as easily say the same thing about the universe itself?

But this is a moot point, because there's been a lot of research into the question of the origin of the universe—or non-origin. Stephen Hawking, in A Brief History of Time, argues that it doesn't even make sense to talk about the universe being "created," because—since the universe contains all of space and all of time, there never was a "before" the universe; there never was a time when the universe didn't exist. If something has always existed, why would it need a creator?

Science doesn't have all the answers about the origin of the universe; maybe it never will. But "God did it" is certainly not an answer; it explains nothing, it just moves the question back to "okay, but where did God come from?" Your answer to this question is the same as the atheist's answer to where the universe comes from—the difference is that (unlike any given deity) everyone agrees the universe exists. :)

I respect a Mormons right to believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet. But, I grew up in the New England area and still remember the stories about Young Joe smith and how his shenanigans got the family kicked out of Massachusets and they settled in Elmira NY. I personally can not believe Joseph Smith could have been a prophet and have led the life he lived. Also, since I am convinced Islam is the truth, I am solid in my knowing Muhammad(PBUH) was the last prophet, so any alleged prophet after Him is a moot point.
Mormons are likewise convinced that Joseph Smith was the last prophet, and they characterize his detractors and skeptics in the same way that Muslims characterize Muhammad's Jewish and Quraysh tribe detractors and skeptics. Muhammad, like Joseph Smith, got kicked out of his home town due to his "shenanigans."

In fact, now that I think about it, it seems like a lot of prophets and cult leaders get kicked out of their home towns and move somewhere else to start their followings. Sargon of Akkad, Moses, Siddharta Guatema, the heroes of the Indian epics. Alexander the Great (who was believed to be a demigod by some of his biographers) sort of fits the bill as well. Jesus of Nazareth did most of his preachin' in Jerusalem. Paul traveled pretty much nonstop.

This pattern certainly makes sense for fraudulent prophets. If you're claiming to be a prophet with magical powers, it doesn't do you much good to hang around your hometown where your childhood acquaintences might know better and spread the skeptical word. It's sort of like how con men try to avoid staying in the same area for too long.

True, but who gains in terms of Islam. We do not support any central church or clergy. We are very much on our own and owe no allegiance to any church or organization or religious authority. We owe allegiance to Allaah(swt) alone and have no middleman or corporate structure that dictates to us or who we support financially.
I didn't mean gain monetarily, I meant gain in terms of mindshare. Religions are brands, and their currency is followers' devotion and numbers (though monetary currency doesn't hurt!)

If you were planning to start a new cult, what would be the best strategy? You could try to say that all the old religions are nonsense—but that would just alienate their billions of followers. A much better strategy is to say that these older religions had the right idea—you guys are on the right track—but I have the latest update that fixes a few of the mistakes made along the way. (And you can ignore that part of your religion that claims to be the final revelation, like the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 4), New Testament (Revelation), and Quran (throughout the book) all do—those passages were the parts that happened to be corrupted!)

This is why you hardly never see a new religion that doesn't in some way incorporate elements of popular existing religions. The only one I can think of is Scientology, and even it tries to incorporate Abrahamic religions to some extent.
Reply

aamirsaab
12-04-2008, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
...This is why you hardly never see a new religion that doesn't in some way incorporate elements of popular existing religions. The only one I can think of is Scientology, and even it tries to incorporate Abrahamic religions to some extent.
Ah this is why I and someone else said you have to look at the messengers' actions. The Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] was known for his honesty and truthfulness - even his enemies knew him for that. Also his mercy showed no bounds (he let the woman who poisoned him go scot-free...). It's these actions that help to convince us that these Prophets weren't wackos. They were good, honest and just people - they had no reason to lie and had they done, they sure as hell wouldn't have been living in those crappy conditions whilst all the other leaders of the world were living in palaces, bathing in gold.

Of course there are other reasons such as the practicalities of the rulings e.g :
1) honouring/protecting the female members thereby allowing the survival of the species
2) No interest on loans (you pay exactly what you owe - nothing more and nothing less. Very ethical if you think about it)
3) Respect (in all forms) for all God's creations (including plants!)

Even modern-secular ethics don't even come close. Which isn't even scratching the surface in terms of religious laws compared to modern laws in terms of effectiveness.

It's not simply a matter of: oh this dude got a revelation from God - I'm so joining his religion!
There are loads of reasons to follow Islam (or any religion for that matter) - far more IMO than to not follow it.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Ah this is why I and someone else said you have to look at the messengers' actions. The Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] was known for his honesty and truthfulness - even his enemies knew him for that.
Huh? The Jewish tribes thought he was a fraud. The Quraysh kicked him out of their city.

And of course his followers thought he was honest and truthful. Every prophet's followers think their prophet is honest and truthful. Joseph Smith's followers say the same thing.

Also his mercy showed no bounds (he let the woman who poisoned him go scot-free...).
Joseph Smith likewise forgave William Phelps, who persecuted him.
http://www.josephsmith.net/josephsmi...004d82620aRCRD

(Though, didn't Muhammad order the assassination of some rival poets who slandered him?)

It's these actions that help to convince us that these Prophets weren't wackos. They were good, honest and just people - they had no reason to lie and had they done, they sure as hell wouldn't have been living in those crappy conditions whilst all the other leaders of the world were living in palaces, bathing in gold.
Power is always a reason to lie.

And Joseph Smith didn't live in a golden palace either. However, he did have more wives than Muhammad. According to a google search, Smith had around 34 wives; Muhammad only had twelve.

Of course there are other reasons such as the practicalities of the rulings e.g :
1) honouring/protecting the female members thereby allowing the survival of the species
My girlfriend is particularly unimpressed with Muhammad's rulings on women. Among others. Though I can see how some of Muhammad's laws were an improvement over the contemporary Arabian society.

2) No interest on loans (you pay exactly what you owe - nothing more and nothing less. Very ethical if you think about it)
I don't see why usury is less ethical than no-interest loans. Maybe in a nomadic society, where money wasn't conceived of as capital, but we don't live that way anymore. (Today, merely having money has an intrinsic value above and beyond the value of the money itself, so it's not exactly fair to expect people to lend money without accounting for that extra value. Money's value depreciates over time. It's like lending someone a sandwich—even if you get it back in one piece, it's not going to be as tasty.)

3) Respect (in all forms) for all God's creations (including plants!)
I've never heard of this before. In any case, the Quran doesn't seem to be very respectful towards non-believers. If I open up my Quran to a random spread of pages, chances are that I'll find at least one insult and threat of hellfire and torture.

Even modern-secular ethics don't even come close. Which isn't even scratching the surface in terms of religious laws compared to modern laws in terms of effectiveness.
Modern Western societies seem to be a lot more effective and prosperous than Islamic societies, which would explain why so many Muslims emigrate to Western societies (although, you may not believe there currently are any Islamic societies ... which would also say something about the effectiveness and practicality of Islamic ethics, if they can't work in the real world).

It's not simply a matter of: oh this dude got a revelation from God - I'm so joining his religion!
There are loads of reasons to follow Islam (or any religion for that matter) - far more IMO than to not follow it.
I disagree. I don't think there's any good reason to follow any religion that I've studied. Except for that religion from The Legend of Zelda, with the three goddesses of the Triforce. I always thought that was pretty cool. :)

Aside from that, I prefer to take my ideologies with a grain of salt—not "follow" them.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-04-2008, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Science doesn't have all the answers about the origin of the universe; maybe it never will. But "God did it" is certainly not an answer; it explains nothing, it just moves the question back to "okay, but where did God come from?"

Theists say that God originated the universe. The big bang proves it had a starting point. We believe God did not have a beginning since that is an attribute of Perfection, and God is Perfect - hence self existing without a beginning.


Huh? The Jewish tribes thought he was a fraud.
When the Prophet migrated to Medinah, they came to see him and find out whether he was the true Messenger of Allah spoken of in the Scriptures. When they got back and talked together that night, Safiyah was in her bed listening to them. One of them [her jewish uncle] said, "What do you think about him?" He replied, "He is the same Prophet foretold by our Scriptures." Then the other said, "What is to be done?" The reply came that they must oppose him with all their might. So Safiyah was convinced of the truth of the Prophet. She spared no pain to look after him, care for him and provide every comfort that she could think of.


http://www.islamicboard.com/companions-prophet/1016-safiyya-bint-huyayy-radiallahu-anha.html

Simply because he wasn't Jewish, but Arab (cousins or 'brethren' of the jews.)

The Quraysh kicked him out of their city.
The Quraysh called him Al Ameen, the trustworthy before and even after Islam. They never rejected his truthfulness, but were in doubt as to whether God sends revelation to man. What was Muhammad (peace be upon him) wanting, if he was from the most noble of lineages, with wealth and status, and loved by all the people who knew him? All this was for God, and as is well known - God gave him victory over his own people, he was merciful to them - and for what purpose?

What was he really after?
Reply

suffiyan007
12-04-2008, 06:51 PM
people dont believe in God prophets and how prophets bringing the teaching of Allah to the people...are really Rejecting faith...kafir...!we actually can feel God near with us...but no much people understand the tassawuf..! actually God near to us...we can't see him, but he can see us even inside our heart....there is no other God than Allah.:X
Reply

aamirsaab
12-04-2008, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Huh? The Jewish tribes thought he was a fraud. The Quraysh kicked him out of their city.
1) Jewish tribes thought everyone from Jesus onwards was a fraud.
2) Quraish kicked him out of their city because he was preaching the existence of one God - they accept Allah as a God but not The God. That;s why they kicked him out.

(Though, didn't Muhammad order the assassination of some rival poets who slandered him?)
The poet in question was slandering ALL muslims, calling them evil etc. He was also one of those jews who thought the Prophet was a fraud. His death prevented a war!

Power is always a reason to lie.
Not by itself. Besides, what power did the Prophet have exactly, if he got kicked out of mecca and had to fight his way back in (after 20 or so years of persecution from just about everyone in arabia!)


I've never heard of this before. In any case, the Quran doesn't seem to be very respectful towards non-believers. If I open up my Quran to a random spread of pages, chances are that I'll find at least one insult and threat of hellfire and torture.
So you believe in the words of the Quran? Yes or no. If you do, how can you be a disbeliever? If you don't why take offence? It's just the ramblings of some dude, right?

Modern Western societies seem to be a lot more effective and prosperous than Islamic societies, which would explain why so many Muslims emigrate to Western societies (although, you may not believe there currently are any Islamic societies ... which would also say something about the effectiveness and practicality of Islamic ethics, if they can't work in the real world).
Nothing to do with the teachings and everything to do with its followers.

I disagree. I don't think there's any good reason to follow any religion that I've studied...
Doesn't mean that others don't have good reason for it.

Aside from that, I prefer to take my ideologies with a grain of salt—not "follow" them.
Why are you equating religion with ideolody? They're two different things.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The big bang proves it had a starting point.
Not really. It gets wonky when you consider the nature of spacetime.

If the universe contains all of timespace, then there is no point in time before the big bang. Theists often think of the big bang like this:

• 1:00 p.m. Nothing.
• 2:00 p.m. Nothing.
• 3:00 p.m. Still nothing.
• 3:42 p.m. KABOOM! Big Bang! Universe appears out of nowhere!

But this makes no sense. Since time is a part of the universe, it doesn't even make sense to talk about any time before the universe. In other words, the universe has always existed.

One way to think about the Big Bang (as Hawking explains in A Brief History of Time) is like the north pole of the earth. The north pole is the "northernmost" point of the earth, just like the Big Bang is the "earliest" point in spacetime. But you can't talk about being "north of the north pole"—that makes no sense. Similarly, you can't talk about something being "before the big bang."

Hawking characterizes spacetime, like the surface of the earth, as both finite and boundless. The earth's surface has a limited area, but it has no edges or boundaries—you don't fall off of it when you reach the north pole. Similarly, you can think of time itself this way. The universe is only so old—13 or so billion years—but the structure of the universe is such that there is no "edge" to time. There's no point in time when the universe was suddenly created from nothing. Instead, the universe just simply is.

We believe God did not have a beginning since that is an attribute of Perfection, and God is Perfect - hence self existing without a beginning.
Well, if your God doesn't need a beginning than I don't see why my universe needs a beginning. Especially considering the nature of spacetime.

When the Prophet migrated to Medinah, they came to see him and find out whether he was the true Messenger of Allah spoken of in the Scriptures. When they got back and talked together that night, Safiyah was in her bed listening to them. One of them [her jewish uncle] said, "What do you think about him?" He replied, "He is the same Prophet foretold by our Scriptures." Then the other said, "What is to be done?" The reply came that they must oppose him with all their might. So Safiyah was convinced of the truth of the Prophet. She spared no pain to look after him, care for him and provide every comfort that she could think of.

http://www.islamicboard.com/companions-prophet/1016-safiyya-bint-huyayy-radiallahu-anha.html

Simply because he wasn't Jewish, but Arab (cousins or 'brethren' of the jews.)
I didn't say no Jews believed him. Similarly, there were non-Mormons who became convinced of Joseph Smith's prophethood and joined him.

You make excuses for the skeptical Jews not believing Muhammad; Mormons make the same kind of excuses for skeptical Christians not believing Joseph Smith. My point here is to show that the same arguments you use to prop up Muhammad's prophethood can apply equally to Joseph Smith and other prophets you don't believe in.

The Quraysh called him Al Ameen, the trustworthy before and even after Islam. They never rejected his truthfulness, but were in doubt as to whether God sends revelation to man.
Didn't the Quraysh call Muhammad a madman, according to the Quran? (I do not have mine with me and I have trouble with the ones on the internet)

I just don't see how what you say isn't a contradiction. They thought he wasn't actually receiving divine revelation—which would make him either a liar or a madman—yet they thought he was trustworthy? That doesn't make sense.

What was Muhammad (peace be upon him) wanting, if he was from the most noble of lineages, with wealth and status, and loved by all the people who knew him? All this was for God, and as is well known - God gave him victory over his own people, he was merciful to them - and for what purpose?

What was he really after?
I imagine the same thing Joseph Smith was after. The same thing today's celebrities are after, for that matter.

Some people like to be followed. Some people like to have their every utterance chronicled and venerated by loyal fans who would die or even kill for them. It's power.
Reply

Ali_Cena
12-04-2008, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
In other words, the universe has always existed.

The universe is only so old—13 or so billion years
What kind of contradiction is that?????? LOL the universe has always existed but was created 13 billion years ago.

Hey Qingu, are you a physician (physic's man) becuae the way you are talking is like you know a lot about physics.

Anyways, the theory you are talking about, might not even make sense, i mean thier are people talking about parralel universes and M-Theory:

Now none of this has actually solved the dilemma of existence. Has the universe always existed, or did it originate at some point. Soon after the Big bang theory came the Big crunch theory. If the expansion of the universe slows down in the future, and the universe has enough mass, it could implode back. It wasn't long until people then suggested an infinite series of explosions and implosions following up on each other. Then the standardized theory made us rethink what space-time as a materialistic construct. So what if time and space itself where originated from the big bang? Then Big bang would be the cause of the beginning of time, rather then occurring at the beginning of time. Or what about our banging membranes? Many scientists suggested they have existed forever to. But there's a lot of problems with all these suggestions. Big bang was such a devastating event that we can find little if any evidence of what went before it. It's all speculation if the universe existed eternally before it, or just two seconds, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Any guess is just as reliable as the next. Next to that, Big bang creating time itself brings a paradox. It suggest an initial movement and change which is independent of time and space. A type of movement which is thus very different of the movements in time and space we witness every day. And our membranes, didn't they contain space-time? So how can a membrane be "infinite over time" when a membrane doesn't even have time? Well it has time in the sense that it contains a temporal dimension within it. But it doesn't have time in the sense that it is not contained by our temporal dimension. A bit like the layers of time paradox I talked about on the four-dimensionalism page. So in conclusion I would say: The little we know does not in any way contradict or even compete with the idea of the universe being created.

Read the above please. :)

also, you can read the rest of it here(when i mean rest of it i mean the beggining of it): this website: http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/thebigbang.htm

if you have any inquries then talk to brother Abdul Fattah, as i think he is well known for his physics and biological work.:)

Peace.
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
1) Jewish tribes thought everyone from Jesus onwards was a fraud.
2) Quraish kicked him out of their city because he was preaching the existence of one God - they accept Allah as a God but not The God. That;s why they kicked him out.
So you agree with me: some of Muhammad's contemporaries, like some of Joseph Smith's contemporaries, thought he was a fraud, or a crazy, or at least mistaken.

The poet in question was slandering ALL muslims, calling them evil etc. He was also one of those jews who thought the Prophet was a fraud. His death prevented a war!
Just sayin'. If it were me, you know—sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me. Doesn't seem very merciful to assassinate someone like that, but then I'm not a prophet. :)

Not by itself. Besides, what power did the Prophet have exactly, if he got kicked out of mecca and had to fight his way back in (after 20 or so years of persecution from just about everyone in arabia!)
He commanded an army and, later, a government.
He had masses of followers doting on his every word.
He had 12 wives (3 times as many as were allowed to his followers).

Underdogs still can have extreme power over people. I'm not saying Muhammad's life was cushy, or that he didn't put himself at risk, but he certainly had a lot of power.

So you believe in the words of the Quran? Yes or no. If you do, how can you be a disbeliever? If you don't why take offence? It's just the ramblings of some dude, right?
Oh, I didn't take offense. I don't think you could offend me if you tried. This was just a comment in response to the claim that Muhammad was supremely respectful. My Quran doesn't come across as very respectful of others' beliefs.

Nothing to do with the teachings and everything to do with its followers.
Communists have the same exact excuse for why their utopia society didn't/won't work out in the real world, even though it sounds so good on paper. Those pesky followers and their tendency towards corruption and hypocrisy!

Doesn't mean that others don't have good reason for it.
The way I see it, good reasons are usually good reasons no matter who has them. :)

Why are you equating religion with ideolody? They're two different things.
It's probably semantics. I see religion as a kind of ideology. I use the word "ideology" to include non-religious but otherwise comparable political, social, and metaphysical philosophies (like Communism).
Reply

Qingu
12-04-2008, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
What kind of contradiction is that?????? LOL the universe has always existed but was created 13 billion years ago.
I thought I explained it. Time can be both finite and boundless.

Again, like the surface of the earth. The surface of the earth has a finite area (510,065,600 square km). But the surface doesn't have any edges. There's no "starting point" or "ending point" to the earth's surface, because of the way it's shaped.

We know, from Relativity, that time and space are part of the same fabric. We know that this spacetime is "curved." What Hawking suggests—and what I said in my post—is that spacetime is curved in such a way that it is both finite and boundless, like the earth's surface (but with 2 extra dimensions).

I realize this is probably very confusing. Here's another way to think about it. Take a globe, and put your finger at the North Pole. That's the Big Bang. Now imagine, as you move south on the globe, you're actually moving forward in time. If you move north, you're moving backwards. But notice that the north pole—or the Big Bang—isn't an edge. The surface of the globe keeps on going at the Big Bang. You can't go "before" the big bang, in the same way you can't go "north" of the north pole.

So if there is no "before" the Big Bang, then by definition, the universe has always existed. In order for something to be created, there needs to be a point in time in which it does not exist, followed by a point in time which it does. There is no point in time where the universe has not existed—time is part of the universe.

Hey Qingu, are you a physician (physic's man) becuae the way you are talking is like you know a lot about physics.
I would say I know a mediocre amount about physics. :)

Anyways, the theory you are talking about, might not even make sense, i mean thier are people talking about parralel universes and M-Theory:
As far as I know, the no-boundary universe proposed by Hawking does not necessarily contradict string theory (if string theory turns out to be true). String theory deals with dimensions other than space and time; we are just talking about space and time here.

Now none of this has actually solved the dilemma of existence. Has the universe always existed, or did it originate at some point. Soon after the Big bang theory came the Big crunch theory. If the expansion of the universe slows down in the future, and the universe has enough mass, it could implode back. It wasn't long until people then suggested an infinite series of explosions and implosions following up on each other. Then the standardized theory made us rethink what space-time as a materialistic construct. So what if time and space itself where originated from the big bang? Then Big bang would be the cause of the beginning of time, rather then occurring at the beginning of time. Or what about our banging membranes? Many scientists suggested they have existed forever to. But there's a lot of problems with all these suggestions. Big bang was such a devastating event that we can find little if any evidence of what went before it. It's all speculation if the universe existed eternally before it, or just two seconds, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Any guess is just as reliable as the next. Next to that, Big bang creating time itself brings a paradox. It suggest an initial movement and change which is independent of time and space. A type of movement which is thus very different of the movements in time and space we witness every day. And our membranes, didn't they contain space-time? So how can a membrane be "infinite over time" when a membrane doesn't even have time? Well it has time in the sense that it contains a temporal dimension within it. But it doesn't have time in the sense that it is not contained by our temporal dimension. A bit like the layers of time paradox I talked about on the four-dimensionalism page. So in conclusion I would say: The little we know does not in any way contradict or even compete with the idea of the universe being created.
This is just sloppy. I don't mean to be mean—it's difficult to talk about these concepts since so much of our vocabulary depends on a normal flow of time, and we're talking about time itself here.

But the author keeps on asserting that spacetime "originates" from the Big Bang, and that the Big Bang "created" time itself. These sentences make no sense, logically. Again, for something to be "created," there needs to be a point in time when it doesn't exist, followed by a point in time when it does. To suggest that time can be created is indeed a paradox—which might be the author's point, but I'm not sure.

Here is the bottom line: does the universe contain all of spacetime? If it does, then by definition, the universe could not have been "created," because the act of creation requires the existence of time outside of the created object.

If the universe does not contain all of spacetime, then we simply move the discussion to the "multiverse" or whatever broader structure you think does, and the same logic applies.

Furthermore, I don't see how the existence of a creator helps us to understand the origin of the universe at all. Where did the creator come from? How did he create it? It just strikes me as a very silly explanation, like how ancient people would explain unknown or confusing diseases by just declaring "it's demons!" Labeling a phenomenon with the words "God did it" is not really an explanation at all.
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- Qatada -
12-04-2008, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Not really. It gets wonky when you consider the nature of spacetime.

If the universe contains all of timespace, then there is no point in time before the big bang. Theists often think of the big bang like this:

• 1:00 p.m. Nothing.
• 2:00 p.m. Nothing.
• 3:00 p.m. Still nothing.
• 3:42 p.m. KABOOM! Big Bang! Universe appears out of nowhere!

But this makes no sense. Since time is a part of the universe, it doesn't even make sense to talk about any time before the universe. In other words, the universe has always existed.

This is where your point is flawed, how can something have a beginning yet have no beginning? I don't want to go into the philosophy and jump straight to the point - you merely don't know how the universe originated.

Theists will say that God did it, and that is based on their own logical understanding and reasoning.


I didn't say no Jews believed him. Similarly, there were non-Mormons who became convinced of Joseph Smith's prophethood and joined him.
No, the point is that the Jews knew he was the Prophet, they rejected him out of arrogance because he wasn't Jewish.




Didn't the Quraysh call Muhammad a madman, according to the Quran? (I do not have mine with me and I have trouble with the ones on the internet)

I just don't see how what you say isn't a contradiction. They thought he wasn't actually receiving divine revelation—which would make him either a liar or a madman—yet they thought he was trustworthy? That doesn't make sense.
Exactly, and thats why the Qur'an reprimands them. They know he isn't a madman because he is coming with something that is more amazing than someone who is affected by magic - something purely logical and calling to good. Nor is he a magician - because they have heard the speech of soothsayers and the effects it causes, nor is he a poet - because he did not have any interest in it before or after Prophethood [the Qur'an is prose and rhetoric]. So what is he? This is what they were in doubt about. They merely called him a madman because they wanted to insult his claim for Prophethood so that the masses wouldn't follow him [with them fearing to lose their wealth and fame amongst the arabs if they accepted him].



I imagine the same thing Joseph Smith was after. The same thing today's celebrities are after, for that matter.
But why? If he already had fame? If he was from the most noble of lineages [the Banu Hashim from Quraysh], and by claiming Prophethood - he actually got insulted and tortured, so did his companions. Is that fame? When the arabs said we would make you the king of arabia, isn't that fame? Why didn't he accept that if he was after it? Instead of going through so much torture?


Some people like to be followed. Some people like to have their every utterance chronicled and venerated by loyal fans who would die or even kill for them. It's power.
He would be, the Quraysh who were the leaders of Arabia said they would - the people would follow, so long as he never dispraised their idols. So what was his purpose of claiming Prophethood?
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aamirsaab
12-04-2008, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
So you agree with me: some of Muhammad's contemporaries, like some of Joseph Smith's contemporaries, thought he was a fraud, or a crazy, or at least mistaken.
My initial point was even to his enemies he was known as honest and truthful. That jewish tribe thought everyone was a fraud from Jesus onwards. Anyone who said other than what they knew were frauds - not exactly a fair comparison. Quraish however who kicked him out of mecca - now, there's clearly something there doncha think?

Just sayin'. If it were me, you know—sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me. Doesn't seem very merciful to assassinate someone like that, but then I'm not a prophet. :)
That poet was trying to cause a war with his ''innocent poetry''. Plenty of people slandered and abused the Prophet but all the time he took it and did nothing back (he was stoned on a regular bases, one time by his own uncle! Heck, he was even poisoned AND let the woman who did it go away scot free!). The only time he took action was when people were trying to cause (or causing) a war. It had nothing to do with his ''feelings'' being hurt.

He commanded an army and, later, a government.
In either case he was protecting/leading his followers who were being persecuted for saying ''there is no God but god''
He had masses of followers doting on his every word.
This would have been a problem had he abused this power. But he never did. Hence the lack of a palace and surplus of ragged clothes.
He had 12 wives (3 times as many as were allowed to his followers).
1) To show who and who wasn't elligible for his followers to to marry (he was the last prophet sent by God, you know!)
2) bring waring tribes together/cohesion

Oh, I didn't take offense. I don't think you could offend me if you tried. This was just a comment in response to the claim that Muhammad was supremely respectful. My Quran doesn't come across as very respectful of others' beliefs.
That assumes the Quran was written by Muhammad, which he couldn't have due to him being illiterate. If you want to discuss this issue properly though, create a new thread and I'll tango.

Communists have the same exact excuse for why their utopia society didn't/won't work out in the real world, even though it sounds so good on paper. Those pesky followers and their tendency towards corruption and hypocrisy!
Which is why one of the requirements for islamic law is a caliphate. Sharia + Caliphate = awesome. Sharia law without caliphate = Saudi arabia. Communism doesn't have a safeguard like Islamic law does. In any case, Sharia law did actually work (for a time anyway) - I don't think you can say the same for any other law system.
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- Qatada -
12-04-2008, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Just sayin'. If it were me, you know—sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me. Doesn't seem very merciful to assassinate someone like that, but then I'm not a prophet. :)
What's the point of a religion if its Prophet is insulted? Why is someone punishable in the US for simply burning a cloth of the american flag?


He commanded an army and, later, a government.
He had masses of followers doting on his every word.
He commanded an army because the Quraysh came to kill him and his followers. Self defense is any humans right.


He had 12 wives (3 times as many as were allowed to his followers).
Yeh, and that was for social and political reasons. Infact, this point actually supports our view of Islam more than the anti Islam view, because if he really wanted to - he never had to 'forbid' the muslims from 4 wives only, and he could allow them to have as many as they wanted. Islam restricted the 'unlimited wives' practise and set it to 4 for justice.

His marriages were for the benefit of mankind, and this is well known by reading the lives of his wives - who conveyed to us how his home life was.


Underdogs still can have extreme power over people. I'm not saying Muhammad's life was cushy, or that he didn't put himself at risk, but he certainly had a lot of power.
And he surely would do if he was king of arabia, something which the polytheists of Makkah gave him the chance to be. But why did he reject it if he was after this power?



Communists have the same exact excuse for why their utopia society didn't/won't work out in the real world, even though it sounds so good on paper. Those pesky followers and their tendency towards corruption and hypocrisy!
Read the life of Umar ibn Al Khattab, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, two examples who applied Islamic government law fully and in the correct way. Maybe you'll see how Islam really is, the total opposite to corruption and hypocrisy.

The king of 1/3 of the world living in a mud house, walking in the night to feed the widows and children isn't hypocrisy. It's to be a true leader of justice. Someone who would deal with justice and rights even if it was a non muslim, who had been wronged by a Muslim. That's the true Prophetic example that they followed.
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AntiKarateKid
12-04-2008, 08:11 PM
Qingu,

I honestly think that atheists have more blind faith than theists.

THe universe has always existed? Are you serious man? Where has reality come from? Where did IT ALL start? What MADE it start? The answer is quite obviously God. The uncreated beginning.

I great trouble wrapping my head around this concept of yours trying to find physical explanations for physical phenomena, and then finding physical explanations for the previous explainations. Your infinitely regressing.
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- Qatada -
12-04-2008, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Qingu,

I honestly think that atheists have more blind faith than theists.

THe universe has always existed? Are you serious man? Where has reality come from? Where did IT ALL start? What MADE it start? The answer is quite obviously God. The uncreated beginning.

I great trouble wrapping my head around this concept of yours trying to find physical explanations for physical phenomena, and then finding physical explanations for the previous explainations. Your infinitely regressing.

:salamext:

the weakness is further than that because out of all them 'previous' universes, its this universe which has control and harmony and allows life to survive within it, with continued provision for those within it etc. (some might claim the other ones did too - but without proof since they aren't even totally aware of whether Mars had life on, and thats the closest planet to us!)

Now all the pro atheist points which state that other universes may never have had life forms and by 'chance' this one did is going too far, and this is what is real blind faith. Because they have no proof for this claim of theirs.


So if they argue that all this occurred by chance, without control - then we are bless blameworthy to believe that someOne with knowledge and ability controlled all this and made these events occur for life to survive within, and then provided provisions so that these beings could continue to exist for such a long time period.

Whereas atheists just have to continue saying that 'because it happened, it happened'. Well that doesn't really explain unanswered questions which humans are really after, it just brings up more questions.


We've even explained in another thread how life can't come into existence from non life, and how that is impossible;
http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1055034


Yet they will deny the knowledge and power of God, who else could it be except one with knowledge of what He did? Why is that so impossible? Yet forces which don't have an understanding of their own existence form amazing life forms and sustenance for these life forms is something accepted as more of a possibility. How strange.
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- Qatada -
12-04-2008, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Which is why one of the requirements for islamic law is a caliphate. Sharia + Caliphate = awesome. Sharia law without caliphate = Saudi arabia. Communism doesn't have a safeguard like Islamic law does. In any case, Sharia law did actually work (for a time anyway) - I don't think you can say the same for any other law system.

:salamext:


It worked at its best during the time of the Messenger of Allah, the 4 Guided Caliphs, Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman, Ali, and Umar ibn Abdul Aziz. These were when its at its best.

Afterwards people strayed from the pure implementation of Shar'iah, selecting some and not applying others. That's when the Muslims went at loss. :) So its not Shari'ah which works temporarily, it works for all times uptill the Day of Judgment. However, its due to human error and false desires that Muslims are in the state that we are today, with no true Islamic rule which applies Shari'ah 100%. If you read Islamic history, you'll figure out how and why these changes have occurred.
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Qingu
12-04-2008, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
This is where your point is flawed, how can something have a beginning yet have no beginning?
I don't believe I said the universe has a beginning.

Can you quote where I said that? I may have just been using sloppy language (which is hard to avoid when we're talking about time).

I don't want to go into the philosophy and jump straight to the point - you merely don't know how the universe originated.

Theists will say that God did it, and that is based on their own logical understanding and reasoning.
But their reasoning isn't logical. It's an old argument, it's been around since Aristotle, and it's been disproven since the Enlightenment.

You say that the universe needs a creator because nothing could possibly exist forever just on its own.

I ask, "well, who created the creator?"

You say, "Nobody! The creator has always existed on his own!"

That's a contradiction—the whole reason you think the universe needs a creator is because you don't think it could have always existed on its own! You're positing the existence of a creator to explain a problem, but the creator ends up having the same problem. So you either have to admit the creator needs a creator himself (causing an endless chain) or that the idea of something self-existent and eternal (like the atheist's universe) is not actually a problem in and of itself.

No, the point is that the Jews knew he was the Prophet, they rejected him out of arrogance because he wasn't Jewish.
Surely everyone knew Joseph Smith was a prophet as well. They rejected him out of arrogance because he wasn't Protestant or Catholic.

Exactly, and thats why the Qur'an reprimands them. They know he isn't a madman because he is coming with something that is more amazing than someone who is affected by magic - something purely logical and calling to good. Nor is he a magician - because they have heard the speech of soothsayers and the effects it causes, nor is he a poet - because he did not have any interest in it before or after Prophethood [the Qur'an is prose and rhetoric]. So what is he? This is what they were in doubt about. They merely called him a madman because they wanted to insult his claim for Prophethood so that the masses wouldn't follow him [with them fearing to lose their wealth and fame amongst the arabs if they accepted him].
Ditto Joseph Smith. Again, I think you're missing the point—all the defenses of Muhammad's prophethood can apply to Joseph Smith's prophethood.

But why? If he already had fame? If he was from the most noble of lineages [the Banu Hashim from Quraysh], and by claiming Prophethood - he actually got insulted and tortured, so did his companions. Is that fame? When the arabs said we would make you the king of arabia, isn't that fame? Why didn't he accept that if he was after it? Instead of going through so much torture?

He would be, the Quraysh who were the leaders of Arabia said they would - the people would follow, so long as he never dispraised their idols. So what was his purpose of claiming Prophethood?
I don't understand your reluctance to admit that Muhammad had a lot more power as a prophet/military leader than he would have had as a merchant.

I mean, I can see how the fiction that he had no power to gain from being a famous prophet would help shore up your belief that he wasn't faking it. Is your belief in need of shoring up, though?
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Qingu
12-04-2008, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
THe universe has always existed? Are you serious man? Where has reality come from? Where did IT ALL start? What MADE it start? The answer is quite obviously God. The uncreated beginning.
But where has God come from? Where did Got start? What MADE God start?

Your answer is no different than my answer to your question. I don't see how the addition of an unnecessary "God step" to the process illuminates anything.

Your infinitely regressing.
No. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying.

Really. Go back and read my posts again. It's not an infinite regression at all.
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Qingu
12-04-2008, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
My initial point was even to his enemies he was known as honest and truthful.
...except for the Jews who thought he was a fraud?

An honest and truthful fraud?

That poet was trying to cause a war with his ''innocent poetry''. Plenty of people slandered and abused the Prophet but all the time he took it and did nothing back (he was stoned on a regular bases, one time by his own uncle! Heck, he was even poisoned AND let the woman who did it go away scot free!). The only time he took action was when people were trying to cause (or causing) a war. It had nothing to do with his ''feelings'' being hurt.
It's interesting to compare your response to Qatada's:

format_quote Originally Posted by Qatada
What's the point of a religion if its Prophet is insulted? Why is someone punishable in the US for simply burning a cloth of the american flag?
I take it you disagree with Qatada on the reasoning behind Muhammad's order for assassination? (By the way, Qatada, flag-burning is not a punishable offense in the U.S., and if you think I support laws like that you don't know me very well)

In either case he was protecting/leading his followers who were being persecuted for saying ''there is no God but god''

This would have been a problem had he abused this power. But he never did. Hence the lack of a palace and surplus of ragged clothes.

1) To show who and who wasn't elligible for his followers to to marry (he was the last prophet sent by God, you know!)
2) bring waring tribes together/cohesion
I'm worried we're getting too far afield from the original topic (probably my fault). The original topic was how can you tell a false prophet from a real prophet.

You all think Joseph Smith is a false prophet. But do you deny that his followers could use the same exact reasoning and excuses to defend him that you are using to defend Muhammad in your post?

Why do you believe Muhammad's biographers and followers, but not Joseph Smith's biographers and followers? How much have you guys even studied Mormonism?

That assumes the Quran was written by Muhammad, which he couldn't have due to him being illiterate. If you want to discuss this issue properly though, create a new thread and I'll tango.
Interesting ... though I feel like this would be a pretty straightforward thread :)

So you are saying that Muhammad's personality and way of treating people is not at all reflective of the language of the Quran? And you know this from his (doubtlessly impartial and objective) biographers? Shall we compare what Joseph Smith's biographers say about his temperment?

Which is why one of the requirements for islamic law is a caliphate. Sharia + Caliphate = awesome. Sharia law without caliphate = Saudi arabia. Communism doesn't have a safeguard like Islamic law does. In any case, Sharia law did actually work (for a time anyway) - I don't think you can say the same for any other law system.
How many civil wars were fought during the Caliphates? More than one, yes? Then I'd say America's government has a better track record, to name just one law system. :)
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- Qatada -
12-04-2008, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
I don't believe I said the universe has a beginning.

Can you quote where I said that? I may have just been using sloppy language (which is hard to avoid when we're talking about time).
I don't want to go into the definition of words, what we can both agree to is the fact that you're not aware of how the universe originated.


But their reasoning isn't logical. It's an old argument, it's been around since Aristotle, and it's been disproven since the Enlightenment.

You say that the universe needs a creator because nothing could possibly exist forever just on its own.

I ask, "well, who created the creator?"

You say, "Nobody! The creator has always existed on his own!"

That's a contradiction—the whole reason you think the universe needs a creator is because you don't think it could have always existed on its own! You're positing the existence of a creator to explain a problem, but the creator ends up having the same problem. So you either have to admit the creator needs a creator himself (causing an endless chain) or that the idea of something self-existent and eternal (like the atheist's universe) is not actually a problem in and of itself.
I said I believe in God and believe that He is Perfect, therefore to believe in His Perfection - I believe He doesn't have a beginning. Since something having a beginning implies that it was dependent upon another, something which i believe God was not.



Surely everyone knew Joseph Smith was a prophet as well. They rejected him out of arrogance because he wasn't Protestant or Catholic.
Prove this, i've proved my points using the example I gave earlier of Saffiya's uncles rejecting Prophet Muhammad after comparing him to there scripture. Now you prove to me that Joseph Smith was rejected with similar reasons from his lifestory.


Ditto Joseph Smith. Again, I think you're missing the point—all the defenses of Muhammad's prophethood can apply to Joseph Smith's prophethood.
You're missing the point, you said that joseph smith was after fame, simply explain what Muhammad (peace be upon him) was after? Was it wealth [which he already had], fame and status? [which he already had by being from Quraysh], women? [which the Quraysh offered to him if he gave up his faith, the most beautiful of them but he rejected], what else was he after?

Yet he went through so much torture for no apparent reason? Please do inform me why he claimed Prophethood.


I don't understand your reluctance to admit that Muhammad had a lot more power as a prophet/military leader than he would have had as a merchant.
Read and answer what i said above please. If you're so sure about the falseness of his claim to Prophethood.
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AntiKarateKid
12-05-2008, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
But where has God come from? Where did Got start? What MADE God start?

Your answer is no different than my answer to your question. I don't see how the addition of an unnecessary "God step" to the process illuminates anything.


No. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying.

Really. Go back and read my posts again. It's not an infinite regression at all.
Nothing made God. God made everything. The universe did not make itself. Reality cannot create itself. God is the source. As for your questions, createdness is against his attribute so asking what created God is pointless.
On the otherhand, the universe and reality are tangible since we are part of it.
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Tornado
12-05-2008, 03:24 AM
Qingu, you won't win this. This infinity thing is too hard for us little humans :blind:
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AntiKarateKid
12-05-2008, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Qingu, you won't win this. This infinity thing is too hard for us little humans :blind:
Naw, the illiterate arabs in the gutters and the downtrodden slaves could understand the divine. So can you!
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Tornado
12-05-2008, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Naw, the illiterate arabs in the gutters and the downtrodden slaves could understand the divine. So can you!
Sorry, if there was a satisfying answer, this would never be discussed. I file this infinity thing as something humans just can't understand (at least we don't right now, and i don't *think we'll ever).
What happened before the beginning; but you can't go back forverever, so there must be a beginning, but what happened before it, but.. :(
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AntiKarateKid
12-05-2008, 04:07 AM
To you your way. To us ours.
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Tornado
12-05-2008, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
To you your way. To us ours.
Sure. I hope you aren't being a little biased given that you believe in a god. I don't really care if there's a god, but I never rule out a god could be an answer for infinite regression.
Is this going off-topic?
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AntiKarateKid
12-05-2008, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Sure. I hope you aren't being a little biased given that you believe in a god. I don't really care if there's a god, but I never rule out a god could be an answer for infinite regression.
Is this going off-topic?
Theism is reality. Though you think you may not care about God, He certainly cares about you. You are just stumbling the test. Cliche? Yes, but nonetheless true.

And yes we are digressing.:D
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K.Venugopal
12-05-2008, 05:30 AM
If Allah created everything, the question who created Allah is valid. If nobody created Allah and Allah always existed, then could not the so-called creation also have always existed? That which ever exists - existence - is life. The so-called creation is nothing other than life taking on different forms. We always exist, only our forms change. We are that which we call Allah.

The biggest mistake in the Quran is the claim that Allah created life. It should have said Allah is life. This is what the Vedas proclaim.
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جوري
12-05-2008, 05:39 AM
Everything in creation dies.. that nullifies the notion of always having existed -- death denotes mortality -- life ceases to exist when death happens and death inevitably comes for all.. even stars die as we speak....

Time amongst others is an attribute of God as he has so defined for us-- Time is an indefinite period which is defined by us through specific attributes or activities that we use to give measure against it, however on its own accord is a continuum that goes on.. long after Hindus or atheists are cremated and scattered upon the earth!
Kitaab At-Tawheed, Chapter: 43

Whoever Curses Time Wrongs Allah

Allah (swt ), says:

" And they say: "There is nothing but our life in this world: We die and we live and nothing destroys us except time." And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture" (Qur'an 45:24)

Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High, informs us in this verse about the disbelieving dahris1 from among the Arabs and others, who do not believe in any life, save the life of this world, nor in the Rabb and Creator, Allah (swt ), Most High. They believe that nothing causes death except the passage of time. Then Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High, refutes their claims, saying that they have absolutely no evidence for what they claim, but instead, depend upon surmise and their own vain opinions.

Benefits Derived From This Verse

1. That attributing good or evil to the passage of time is a sign of atheism.

2. Confirmation of a life after death for mankind.

3. That ad-dahr (time) is not one of Allah's Names.

Relevance of This Verse to the Subject of the Chapter

That the verse rejects those who attribute events to time, for they commit a great wrong against Allah (swt ).

Relevance of This Verse to the Subject of Tawheed

That it rejects those who attribute events to time, because in so doing, they are ascribing a partner to Allah (swt ), for it is He, Alone Who decrees what will be and what will not be.

..ooOOoo..

It is authentically reported on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra ) that the Prophet (saas ) said: "Allah (swt ), Most Blessed, Most High, says: "The son of Adam wrongs Me: He curses time, though I am time: In My Hands are all things and I cause the night to follow the day." 2 In another narration, He (saas ) says: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah (swt )."

Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High informs us in this Hadith Qudsi, that man commits a great wrong against Allah (swt ) when he curses time and attributes the occurrence of events to it, for Allah (swt ) is the Rabb of time and the Disposer of affairs and it is by His Qadr that events take place. Therefore to curse time is to curse the Owner of time.

In the second narration, the Prophet (saas ) forbids us from cursing time, saying that Allah (swt ) is the Owner of time and the Disposer of it and all events and affairs, and this is confirmation of what was reported in the preceding Hadith Qudsi.

Benefits Derived From This Hadith

1. The forbiddance of cursing time.

2. That no actions may be attributed to time.

Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of the Chapter

That it proves that to curse time is to commit a great wrong against Allah (swt ).

Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of Tawheed

That the Hadith proves that cursing time is a great wrong against Allah (swt ), because those who do so believe that it is time which causes events to take place and this is shirk in Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah, for it is Allah (swt ), Alone Who determines events.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 05:45 AM
and no Allah isn't life.. life is defined by the actions and events that occur in the living and cease as they themselves decease.. Life ends with Death.. both life and death are a possession of God he gives and takes to whom he wills!

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High, The Supreme (in glory)." [Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]
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K.Venugopal
12-05-2008, 05:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Everything in creation dies.. that nullifies the notion of always having existed -- death denotes mortality -- life ceases to exist when death happens and death inevitably comes for all.. even stars die as we speak....
Nothing dies, only changes of form occurs. Now which modern scientist said, Matter can neither be created nor destroyed...

The Wikipedia tells me:
There is a scientific law called the Law of Conservation of Mass, discovered by Antoine Lavoisier in 1785. In its most compact form, it states:
matter is neither created nor destroyed.
In 1842, Julius Robert Mayer discovered the Law of Conservation of Energy. In its most compact form, it it now called the First Law of Thermodynamics:
energy is neither created nor destroyed.
In 1907 (I think), Albert Einstein announced his discovery of the equation E = mc2 and, as a consequence, the two laws above were merged into the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy:
the total amount of mass and energy in the universe is constant.
Generally, textbooks would add, that mass and energy can interconvert.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 05:57 AM
indeed.. that is if we are to accept the apriori judgment that life and the soul are mere matter or energy.. which we don't!
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alcurad
12-05-2008, 05:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
We always exist, only our forms change. We are that which we call Allah.

The biggest mistake in the Quran is the claim that Allah created life. It should have said Allah is life. This is what the Vedas proclaim.
he did know of us and our actions before creating us, but we weren't created yet.
the world began, Allah the exalted did not,he is not in our time.
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K.Venugopal
12-05-2008, 06:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
indeed.. that is if we are to accept the apriori judgment that life and the soul are mere matter or energy.. which we don't!
Soul simply means essence. It is a construct of language for our understanding. Nothing like a soul exists. The essense of everything is life. Life, the Vedas say, is not a mere thing. It is eternal, all knowing and all joyous.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 06:13 AM
That is your Hindu belief and is of no consequence really-- if you take the reductionist approach and by all means do so.. you'll end up an atheist not a Hindu bathing in cow dung --

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً

17:85

And they ask you about the soul. Say, .The soul is something from the command of my Lord, and you are not given from the knowledge but a little..
Pickthall: They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
Sahih International : And they ask you about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."
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K.Venugopal
12-05-2008, 06:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
he did know of us and our actions before creating us, but we weren't created yet.
the world began, Allah the exalted did not,he is not in our time.
There is no time except as a tool of man's measurement. Allah = existence. Existence = life. Life, clothed in various forms, enacts the drama of existence. Some call this drama "creation".
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- Qatada -
12-05-2008, 09:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
If Allah created everything, the question who created Allah is valid. If nobody created Allah and Allah always existed, then could not the so-called creation also have always existed? That which ever exists - existence - is life. The so-called creation is nothing other than life taking on different forms. We always exist, only our forms change. We are that which we call Allah.

The biggest mistake in the Quran is the claim that Allah created life. It should have said Allah is life. This is what the Vedas proclaim.

Allah is Al Hayy - the Living. His life is different to human life, human life is created, but since He is Perfect - He is not created.

In regard to the issue of the universe and matter being eternal, then we don't believe this. We believe matter changes form [after first originally being created] because Allah controls it in a way so that life survives within it, or for another greater benefit.


To say that everything is 'within' God justifies the concept of immorality, and injustice - since everyone will justify evil by saying its a part of 'God' and God is not evil - therefore giving them the chance to do evil without no consequence.

its been addressed before here;
http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...d-god-all.html
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K.Venugopal
12-05-2008, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Allah is Al Hayy - the Living. His life is different to human life, human life is created, but since He is Perfect - He is not created.

To say that everything is 'within' God justifies the concept of immorality, and injustice - since everyone will justify evil by saying its a part of 'God' and God is not evil - therefore giving them the chance to do evil without no consequence.
Life is indivisible. There are no two lives, except as separated temporarily in various forms. Life, in its essence, is formless. That life is called Allah. All other lives are called variously according to its various forms. But forms are not eternal, only life is.

About justifying immorality - moral and immoral exist only because man puts a value on actions. If Allah created everything, surely he is responsible for every thing, including man's immoral actions. But in existence, moral and immoral are not relevant except in the lives of humans.
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K.Venugopal
12-05-2008, 12:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

17:85

And they ask you about the soul. Say, .The soul is something from the command of my Lord, and you are not given from the knowledge but a little..
Pickthall: They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
Sahih International : And they ask you about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."
This verse in Quran suggests that soul/spirit is a valid subject, of which Islam does not proceed to say much. However, Vedas say much about the soul/spirit and therefore Hinduism leads its practitioners to divinity, whereas the Quran, as conceded in the above Quranic verse, does not say much of the soul/spirit and therefore Islam does not take its practitioners much beyond being loyal slaves of Allah.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-05-2008, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Life is indivisible. There are no two lives, except as separated temporarily in various forms. Life, in its essence, is formless. That life is called Allah. All other lives are called variously according to its various forms. But forms are not eternal, only life is.
If i told you that you have a nose, and that a cat had a nose - you wouldn't deny it. But you'd know there are different types of noses.

The life of Allah is different to human life, although it still is life.


About justifying immorality - moral and immoral exist only because man puts a value on actions. If Allah created everything, surely he is responsible for every thing, including man's immoral actions. But in existence, moral and immoral are not relevant except in the lives of humans.
Yeah, therefore you would blame God for any evil that occurred on earth right? And put no blame whatsoever on the doer of the action?

If that's the case, you don't think theres anything wrong with crimes such as stealing etc?


This is the EXACT reason Allah sent Messengers', so we had a clear distinction and agreement as to the difference between wrong and right, truth and falsehood. So mankind could unite upon that set truth and live at peace with one another.




Peace.
Reply

Saimah Ali
12-05-2008, 03:29 PM
this thread starting post is so silly
Reply

Tornado
12-05-2008, 04:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Saimah Ali
this thread starting post is so silly
Really? I thought it was a pretty good question, because it applies to you as well.
Reply

Tornado
12-05-2008, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -

This is the EXACT reason Allah sent Messengers', so we had a clear distinction and agreement as to the difference between wrong and right, truth and falsehood. So mankind could unite upon that set truth and live at peace with one another.

Peace.
Does he still keep sending messengers? Prophets haven't stopped coming. Hard to tell who's real and fake. Instead of sending messengers, god itself could just come down (probably never gonna happen).
Reply

Qingu
12-05-2008, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
I don't want to go into the definition of words, what we can both agree to is the fact that you're not aware of how the universe originated.
Of course not. Nobody is.

I said I believe in God and believe that He is Perfect, therefore to believe in His Perfection - I believe He doesn't have a beginning. Since something having a beginning implies that it was dependent upon another, something which i believe God was not.
That's wonderful. Likewise, I believe the Universe does not have a beginning, nor is dependent upon another.

So does Stephen Hawking, probably the best-respected physicist of our time, along with hundreds of other physicists.

So where does that leave us? It seems like your argument for God only works if you mis-characterize what atheists and physicists are saying about the origin of the universe and go from there.

Prove this, i've proved my points using the example I gave earlier of Saffiya's uncles rejecting Prophet Muhammad after comparing him to there scripture. Now you prove to me that Joseph Smith was rejected with similar reasons from his lifestory.
By "prove" do you mean "quote from the prophet's loyal followers"?

Because that's easy.

You're missing the point, you said that joseph smith was after fame, simply explain what Muhammad (peace be upon him) was after?
No, this is not what I said.

I said it is conceivable that all prophets are just after fame and/or power.

I then asked how Muslims differentiate between such prophets and "true" prophets like their own.

So far, I haven't seen a single argument for Muhammad being a "true prophet" that could not also be applied to Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, or any other "prophet" we both accept as phony. You and your fellow Muslims continually quote from Muhammad's followers who extoll his virtue and sacrifice—as if Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard don't have similar followers who similarly extoll their virtues and sacrifices.

This is really a small example of the general problem with religious apologists. Any argument you make for your religion, by the same logic, can be made for almost any other religion. Any argument you make against rival religions can usually be made against your own religion, using the same logic. The arguments "for" tend to be based on hearsay, non-objective witnesses (like the gospel and hadith authors), and poor arguments about vague prophecies and pseudoscience, and so aren't really logical at all.

As far as prophets go, almost every religious tradition is based on some guy who ran off into a cave or a desert alone and then came back claiming to have spoken to a deity, and then proceeded to round up worshipful followers and occasionally make war on his skeptics and detractors. One wonders why such people are the only ones deities ever bother to speak to.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-05-2008, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Does he still keep sending messengers? Prophets haven't stopped coming. Hard to tell who's real and fake. Instead of sending messengers, god itself could just come down (probably never gonna happen).
Every hear of comparative religion? Here are just some things
1. They make prophecies hold true, they are ACTUALLY foretold (you can find valid prophecies in previous books)

2. Like you can compare people like Joseph Smith with Muhammad (pbuh):rollseyes
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
This verse in Quran suggests that soul/spirit is a valid subject, of which Islam does not proceed to say much. However, Vedas say much about the soul/spirit and therefore Hinduism leads its practitioners to divinity, whereas the Quran, as conceded in the above Quranic verse, does not say much of the soul/spirit and therefore Islam does not take its practitioners much beyond being loyal slaves of Allah.
I am pressed for time today-- so let's make it brief..
The soul as discussed in the Quran and Sunna
Database Search Results

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The query [soul] generated the following matches:

Translations of the Qur'an

002.048 002.123 002.200 002.231 002.233 002.281 002.286 003.025 003.030 003.091 003.145 003.161 003.185 004.001 004.079 004.110 004.111 005.030 005.032 006.061 006.070 006.098 006.104 006.151 006.152 006.158 006.164 007.042 007.188 007.189 007.205 010.030 010.044 010.046 010.054 010.100 010.108 011.105 012.053 012.068 012.077 012.101 013.033 013.040 013.042 014.051 016.111 017.014 017.015 017.085 018.006 018.028 018.035 018.074 020.015 020.096 021.035 021.047 023.062 025.068 026.003 027.014 027.040 027.044 027.062 027.092 028.016 029.006 029.057 031.012 031.028 031.034 032.013 032.017 033.037 033.050 034.019 034.050 035.008 035.018 035.032 036.054 039.007 039.041 039.042 039.056 039.070 040.017 040.077 041.046 045.015 045.022 047.038 048.010 050.016 050.021 053.058 056.002 056.083 056.087 059.009 059.018 063.011 064.016 065.001 065.007 073.006 074.038 075.002 075.026 079.040 081.014 082.005 082.019 086.004 089.027 091.007
http://www.usc.edu/cgi-bin/msasearch

`- The query [soul] generated the following matches:

Complete Sahih Bukhari

001.003.115 001.003.124 001.011.617 001.012.768 002.013.055 002.023.375 002.023.399 002.023.434 002.023.444 002.023.471 002.026.795 003.031.118 003.031.128 003.031.189 003.034.291 003.034.425 003.034.432 003.040.555 003.043.642 003.046.718 003.046.724 003.047.785 003.050.885 003.050.891 004.052.059 004.052.283 004.053.340 004.054.430 004.054.467 004.055.549 004.055.657 004.056.659 005.058.254 005.059.314 005.059.459 005.059.462 005.059.541 005.059.542 005.059.546 005.059.597 005.059.702 005.059.740 006.060.151 006.060.159 006.060.160 006.060.236 006.060.249 006.060.250 006.060.251 006.060.302 006.060.303 006.060.378 006.060.473 007.062.137 007.072.735 008.073.008 008.073.161 008.073.237 008.076.509 008.076.513 008.076.516 008.076.535 008.076.537 008.076.542 008.076.570 008.077.593 008.077.600 008.078.625 008.078.626 008.078.628 008.078.629 008.078.630 008.078.631 008.078.632 008.078.634 008.078.635 008.078.636 008.078.637 008.078.638 008.078.639 008.078.640 008.078.698 008.081.778 008.082.815 008.082.821 008.082.826 008.082.842 009.083.050 009.087.165 009.088.189 009.088.237 009.093.485 009.093.506 009.093.507 009.093.532v 009.093.546 009.093.601

Complete Sahih Muslim

001.0157 001.0221 001.0228 001.0229 001.0363 004.0946 004.1680 004.1995 004.2003 004.2005 004.2008 004.2098 005.2219 005.2287 008.3371 008.3373 008.3380 010.3788 017.4238 024.5268 024.5272 024.5273 027.5595 027.5597 031.5933 033.6406 035.6568 039.6712 040.6780 040.6782 040.6783 040.6867 040.6868 043.7171 043.7172 043.7173

Partial Sunan Abu Dawud

002.0667 008.1543 009.1645 010.2036 014.2681A 014.2730 021.3258 025.3639 038.4414 038.4426 039.4522 041.4883

http://www.usc.edu/cgi-bin/msasearch

feel free to follow the site enclosed and validate-- If anything, it shows how much you know of Islam!

I enjoy otherwise how you seem to draw such satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions.. I suppose indeed in the end that is why you are a Hindu.. what modern day human thinks holy sh*t is an object for consecration?

cheers
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu

By "prove" do you mean "quote from the prophet's loyal followers"?

.
surely even you have heard of recorded history? I believe they teach it in school as a separate course? Or do you believe in it as registered in a permanent form only when you deem the subject derogatory and can engage in discourse about it until kingdom come? What a hilarious hypocrite!

as an addendum:

in science you can never prove something to be true.. surely an 'educated' person such as yourself has heard of the null hypothesis? perhaps you can use the scientific method-- confidence interval and P value amongst others to make us too arrive to your learned conclusion? put the proper variables into each component using set criteria as given in the Quran .. or the single variable I have proposed just a few pages ago.. or you can buzz off on the account I don't think you either understand the scientific method, what science actually proposes, or what is recorded history or how to separate that from other fields even that are the component of the human condition ...
Reply

Qingu
12-05-2008, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
surely even you have heard of recorded history? I believe they teach it in school as a separate course? Or do you believe in it as registered in a permanent form only when you deem the subject derogatory and can engage in discourse about it until kingdom come? What a hilarious hypocrite!
How many ancient historical texts have you studied?

Even texts by well-regarded historians (like Thucidydes) are full of errors and exaggerations and legends.

The highly respected Roman historian Seutonius recorded that the Roman Emperor had the power to heal cripples and blind people.

Josephus, another respected ancient historian, recorded that an army of warriors and chariots appeared in the clouds, portenting the war between Romans and Jews during the first century A.D.

Alexander the Great's historians recorded that he had magic powers, sometimes that he was actually descended from gods.

And this is to say nothing of religious texts. Many Hindus regard their epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, as official history—these stories tell of gigantic talking monkeys, of gods throwing mountains at magic archers who shoot them into pieces with arrows, of demons who ride flying chariots, etc.

Surely you're not suggesting that "recorded history" is perfectly accurate? I mean, you don't even believe this about your own tradition's recorded history (i.e. the Bible).

In any case, Skye—unless you start responding with reasoning instead of childish ad hominem insults, this is the last time I am going to respond to one of your posts. Peace be upon you.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 05:05 PM
a sample of the scientific method from every day life

Those of us who understand the scientific method.. come across what is known as the Null Hypothesis --the first thing to do when given a claim is to write the claim mathematically (if possible), and decide whether the given claim is the null or alternative hypothesis. If the given claim contains equality, or a statement of no change from the given or accepted condition, then it is the null hypothesis, otherwise, if it represents change, it is the alternative hypothesis..

when using the scientific method, we never accept the null hypothesis, we either reject it or fail to reject it.. and that alone in the vernacular defines for one, that nothing is 100% absolute.

I don't know how many scientists you've come across? But to be a scientist doesn't denote you accept things at face value or because a percentage of it believes this or that to be true.. , prior I have given an analogy of Dr. Sampson's hypothesis:

for simplicity sake, let's take Dr. John Sampson's theory of retrograde menstruation as a cause of endometriosis, seems plausible for all intensive purposes, that blood traveling backwards carrying in its midst endometrial cells, can implant itself in the vicinity, and this endometrial like tissue acts very much like the linning of the uterus, responding to hormones and may shed from where it shouldn't cause various other nuisances to millions of women-- well how does this theory reconcile for women who have retrograde menses but never develop endometriosis? or how does it reconcile it for women who develop endometriosis in the lung or the nose or the liver, far away from uterine blood? Someone else sits down and challenges the theory, states no it is spread via lymphatics, another says it is iatrogenic due to doctor error, no it is environmental, no cells can naturally morph into others as a result of hormone therapy, no it is auto-immune in origin, no it favors only hispanic women because of genetics.. Do we actually know? we can theorize, and the theories appear very plausible and by folks who have earned their place in the scientific community, but we don't peddle theories as facts and then impugn those who theorize differently...You'd be interested to know that today the theory most people accept is Dr. Sampson's, but the question marks are left in the areas that his theory fails to address!
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post993317
Reply

جوري
12-05-2008, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
How many ancient historical texts have you studied?
Enogh to be asked to take over the professor's course in my undergrad for the 10 days he was on vacation!

Even texts by well-regarded historians (like Thucidydes) are full of errors and exaggerations and legends.
we're not talking about Thucidyces.. we are talking acceptable history that is taught in textbooks.. unless you personally were there and have a different eye witness, I suggest you keep your theories to yourself or likeminded individuals who would rather get their facts from a cesspool than respected scholars!

The highly respected Roman historian Seutonius recorded that the Roman Emperor had the power to heal cripples and blind people.
see my previous reply-- otherwise-- when arguing against Islam don't take the arguments that appeal to you contextually and leave the rest.. you come across as a blathering fool!

Josephus, another respected ancient historian, recorded that an army of warriors and chariots appeared in the clouds, portenting the war between Romans and Jews during the first century A.D.
so?

Alexander the Great's historians recorded that he had magic powers, sometimes that he was actually descended from gods.
see my previous replies!
And this is to say nothing of religious texts. Many Hindus regard their epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, as official history—these stories tell of gigantic talking monkeys, of gods throwing mountains at magic archers who shoot them into pieces with arrows, of demons who ride flying chariots, etc.
I guess you are on to something.. religion indeed should make accurate sense at least 90% of the time-- if it makes sense in great part then faith will cover the whole.. the same way you put blind faith in evolution without respect to documented mutations or have it be in convert with such things as trinucleotide repeat expansion disorders in terms of natural selection!
faith is faith whether expressed in science or religion.. do read the post right on top of this for more details!

Surely you're not suggesting that "recorded history" is perfectly accurate? I mean, you don't even believe this about your own tradition's recorded history (i.e. the Bible).
unless you have something equally reputable and equally ancient to refute it, which is in fact the case of much of the nonsense you have proposed, then I don't see any reason why not-- further if coroborated by other historians or texts across the centuries then I don't see how one can deny it.. again, unless you personally were there and of credible character, you are in no position really to state what is accurate history and what is mythology!

In any case, Skye—unless you start responding with reasoning instead of childish ad hominem insults, this is the last time I am going to respond to one of your posts. Peace be upon you
that sounds great.. I'd rather you buzz off!

cheers
Reply

Ali_Cena
12-05-2008, 05:39 PM
:w::D
Salaam sister skye, lloll i think you merked it.
lolz, plus gratz on your 8000 posts btw:):):):)
:sl:
Peace
Reply

- Qatada -
12-05-2008, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu

That's wonderful. Likewise, I believe the Universe does not have a beginning, nor is dependent upon another.

So does Stephen Hawking, probably the best-respected physicist of our time, along with hundreds of other physicists.

So where does that leave us? It seems like your argument for God only works if you mis-characterize what atheists and physicists are saying about the origin of the universe and go from there.

kool, so let's get this straight. You believe that this universe is eternal, and its just by coincidence that the universe formed in harmony - with order prevailing instead of chaos (surprising isn't it?), and furthermore this order is in such a state that it is able to produce life in such a way that scientists themselves are unable to do the same, but wait - let's look at the possibility of life coming into existence without the aid of control - the concept of abiogenesis;

An average-sized protein molecule composed of 288 amino acids, and contains twelve different types of amino acids can be arranged in 10300 different ways. (This is an astronomically huge number, consisting of 1 followed by 300 zeros.) Of all these possible sequences, only one forms the desired protein molecule. The rest of them are amino-acid chains that are either totally useless or else potentially harmful to living things.
In other words, the probability of the formation of only one protein molecule is "1 in 10 to the power 300" [300 zeros after it!] . The probability of this "1" to occur is practically nil. (In practice, probabilities smaller than 1 over 10 to the power of 50 [50 zeros after it] are thought of as "zero probability"). So imagine 300 zeros after it, its more impossible than impossible itself.

Furthermore, a protein molecule of 288 amino acids is a rather modest one compared with some giant protein molecules consisting of thousands of amino acids. When we apply similar probability calculations to these giant protein molecules, we see that even the word "impossible" is insufficient to describe the true situation.


When we proceed one step further in the evolutionary scheme of life, we observe that one single protein means nothing by itself. One of the smallest bacteria ever discovered, Mycoplasma hominis H39, contains 600 "types" of proteins. In this case, we would have to repeat the probability calculations we have made above for one protein for each of these 600 different types of proteins. The result beggars even the concept of impossibility.

Please don't quote me Miller, because his own teacher says the following (Miller himself later admitted his environment was false and not accurate);


Harold Urey (an evolutionist scientist who performed the Miller Experiment together with his student Stanley Miller):

All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that its complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did.
W. R. Bird, The Origin of Species Revisited, Nashville: Thomas Nelson Co. , 1991, p. 325.

By "prove" do you mean "quote from the prophet's loyal followers"?

Because that's easy.

If you can't answer me as to why Prophet Muhammad claimed Prophethood, then maybe this question is easier; Why did his followers choose to follow him when they knew they would be expelled from their households, tortured, rejected and even killed by following him? While knowing that they have no worldly benefit in doing so?

If you say they were ignorant and therefore easily believed in him, then is someone so gullible really willing to go through so much sacrifices? And further on - be teachers for mankind, for the most advanced civilization in the world? You know that many of these companions later on became governors of the great Persia [former Sassanid empire], Syria [former byzantine power], within just a few years after Prophet Muhammad's death right? Just as he had promised them. If he was false in his Prophecies, then why did they believe his claim and actually achieve it?




No, this is not what I said.

I said it is conceivable that all prophets are just after fame and/or power.

I then asked how Muslims differentiate between such prophets and "true" prophets like their own.

So far, I haven't seen a single argument for Muhammad being a "true prophet" that could not also be applied to Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, or any other "prophet" we both accept as phony. You and your fellow Muslims continually quote from Muhammad's followers who extoll his virtue and sacrifice—as if Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard don't have similar followers who similarly extoll their virtues and sacrifices.

This is really a small example of the general problem with religious apologists. Any argument you make for your religion, by the same logic, can be made for almost any other religion. Any argument you make against rival religions can usually be made against your own religion, using the same logic. The arguments "for" tend to be based on hearsay, non-objective witnesses (like the gospel and hadith authors), and poor arguments about vague prophecies and pseudoscience, and so aren't really logical at all.

As far as prophets go, almost every religious tradition is based on some guy who ran off into a cave or a desert alone and then came back claiming to have spoken to a deity, and then proceeded to round up worshipful followers and occasionally make war on his skeptics and detractors. One wonders why such people are the only ones deities ever bother to speak to.

Well if the points so simple, then why can't you tell me - what was Muhammad after by claiming Prophethood? Is that too much to ask? I don't care about the points people have made generally about 'Prophets' whether the person claiming it is true or false. Since i know that there are many lies, so since I'm a Muslim, I want you to explain to me what Muhammad (peace be upon him) was after in his claim for Prophethood?

If you can answer that, maybe we can go further in the discussion.


Just to make a few relevant points;

1) He never wanted people to overpraise him, he would tell the people to call him "the slave and Messenger of God." and not to exaggerate in his praise like the christians did to Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.) He also said [translation of the meaning;]

"Beware of exaggerated praise for it was only this which led those before you to destruction"
(As Saheehah/Authentic of Al Albaanee #1283) So he wasn't after praise and fame.


2) He lived and died poor, even after being the leader of arabia (the arabs became Muslim willingly during his lifetime), with only a few silver coins in his house before his death. That's because he spent his wealth on the needy all the time. So he wasn't after wealth. If you say he wanted to be the leader of arabia for fame, then why didn't he accept their offer during Makkah instead of facing hardship in Medinah [for 10 long years] later anyway? Surely a person wanting kingdom wants it quick.


3) He could get married to any woman he wanted in Arabia, but he married many widows. The only one being virgin was Aisha. So he wasn't after women. Otherwise he could choose the most beautiful ones, and no-one would argue. But he still never.

What was Muhammad (peace be upon him) after by claiming Prophethood?
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-05-2008, 07:14 PM
Qingu,

Please do not act like all Prophets are made equal. Can you really claim that Joseph Smith is comparable to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? The true prophet is quite obvious.
Reply

alcurad
12-05-2008, 07:46 PM
on the universe not being dependent on another, if you replace god with matter/energy , wouldn't that be faith as practiced by religion with only the object of faith being different?

as for historical texts and their accurateness, other than being a solipsist, you'll have to accord them some measure of truth, the more recent or those with other texts to compare to being more verifiable.
as for the Qur'an being a historical book and containing expressions and stories that might not be historically accurate or verifiable, see the purpose of stories in the qur'an is not to be accurate as it is to be effective in conveying certain meanings and morals, in the end they are simply stories. notice that the stories are mostly vague when it comes to time or surroundings, or even the order of events.
Reply

Tornado
12-05-2008, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
... purpose of stories in the qur'an is not to be accurate as it is to be effective in conveying certain meanings and morals, in the end they are simply stories.
Umm what? Are you talking about the quran? Are you not a muslim?
Reply

alcurad
12-05-2008, 09:15 PM
the purpose of stories is using them in a religious context, for morals and so on, not to entertain us or tell it simply for the telling as many -even muslims- seem to think. the problem arose when some muslims used jewish, sabean and other texts to explain parts of the qur'an, or took some parts too literally.
Qingu was trying to use the presence of tales in holy texts as a refutation to them, my reply is in that context.
Reply

August
12-05-2008, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Can you really claim that Joseph Smith is comparable to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? The true prophet is quite obvious.
Some people would make a case that they are. They both claimed to be correcting the corruption of Jesus's true message. They both produced a new book of holy scripture. They both took many wives. They were both religious leaders with many followers. I as a Catholic believe that they were both false prophets, which brings me back to the original question. Are false prophets inherently bad people? Are they crazy? Did they misinterpret a genuine spiitual experience? How do you feel about Joseph Smith?
Reply

alcurad
12-05-2008, 11:49 PM
I truly don't get how you are comparing Joseph Smith with prophet Muhammad, it's not a very accurate example, don't you think? It's somewhat insulting, although you might not mean it to be.
you like most of us are following the religion of your environment/upbringing, and faith is one of the hardest things to justify, it isn't the scientific method, and doesn't make claims to it anyway. how would you justify the prophet hood of whatever prophets you believe in? as it were the bible is so full of scandals and far from humane actions to make that quite easily refutable for many cases.
n Islam, our paradigm is somewhat different than yours when judging who is prophet/messenger of god or not, and so is our reception of them thereof, if one is indeed claiming to be prophet while he is not, he is to be condemned and rejected, there is no room for dovey feelings or over romanticism. if such a person were genuinely trying to 'correct' what he perceived to be errors, and couldn't know the true message to begin with, then I would sympathize, otherwise the person is spreading a false religion and thus slandering against god.
Reply

Qingu
12-05-2008, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
kool, so let's get this straight. You believe that this universe is eternal, and its just by coincidence that the universe formed in harmony
Formed? I believe the universe is eternal. It never formed; it's always existed.

- with order prevailing instead of chaos (surprising isn't it?),
Why would you assume a chaotic universe?

and furthermore this order is in such a state that it is able to produce life in such a way that scientists themselves are unable to do the same,
Why would the fact that scientists are (currently) unable to simulate the conditions that produced life mean that life never arose on its own?

but wait - let's look at the possibility of life coming into existence without the aid of control - the concept of abiogenesis;
As usual with religious people, your analysis is a dishonest caricature of how scientists actually think chemical evolution happened.

An average-sized protein molecule composed of 288 amino acids, and contains twelve different types of amino acids can be arranged in 10300 different ways. (This is an astronomically huge number, consisting of 1 followed by 300 zeros.) Of all these possible sequences, only one forms the desired protein molecule. The rest of them are amino-acid chains that are either totally useless or else potentially harmful to living things.
What utter nonsense. Nobody is saying that amino acides all the sudden arranged itself into useful protein molecules—amino acids are assembled into proteins based on DNA codes. Your author is calculating the odds of something that nobody is saying would happen.

Why on earth do you think this is at all relevant to abiogenesis?

When we proceed one step further in the evolutionary scheme of life, we observe that one single protein means nothing by itself. One of the smallest bacteria ever discovered, Mycoplasma hominis H39, contains 600 "types" of proteins. In this case, we would have to repeat the probability calculations we have made above for one protein for each of these 600 different types of proteins. The result beggars even the concept of impossibility.
Again, why on earth do you think this is relevant to abiogenesis? Amino acids don't arrange themselves.

Qatada, do you know how proteins are formed? I am not trying to be a jerk here; I will be glad to explain it to you (probably in another thread), and once you understand this mechanism of biology, then we can talk about how the DNA that encodes the protein might have arisen, how lipid membranes that enclose modern cells might have formed, etc—and you can make up your mind about the probability of this happening.

But it doesn't do you any good to talk about the probability of proteins spontaneously forming, because nobody thinks this is what actually happened. Okay?

Please don't quote me Miller, because his own teacher says the following (Miller himself later admitted his environment was false and not accurate);
The Miller-Urey experiments had nothing to do with proteins forming. They had to do with the formation of simpler hydrocarbons, including amino acids (which make up proteins).

All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere.
"All of us?" Almost all biologists—whose job it is to study life—believe in chemical evolution or abiogenesis.

And besides, since you (or your source) apparently don't even know how proteins form, you're not in a position to comment on the scholarship.

Again, I don't say this to be dismissive. The mechanism of protein formation is complicated and it's not something that average joes know about. But for you to comment like this would be like me commenting on the Quran without having read the Quran.

If you can't answer me as to why Prophet Muhammad claimed Prophethood, then maybe this question is easier; Why did his followers choose to follow him when they knew they would be expelled from their households, tortured, rejected and even killed by following him? While knowing that they have no worldly benefit in doing so?
You already know what I think, I'm an atheist (I think Muhammad, like every other prophet in history, was likely a power-hungry and/or self-deluded fraud, and his followers were gullible just like every other prophet's followers). But you don't care what I think.

Joseph Smith's followers faced the same hardships as Muhammad's—they had to move away from their homes into the wilderness and many of them were killed. Why did they do it, Qatada? I think the answer is the same as for Muhammad's followers.

If you say they were ignorant and therefore easily believed in him, then is someone so gullible really willing to go through so much sacrifices?
See Joseph Smith's followers. See Jesus' followers (who, unlike Muslims, thought he was the son of God)—many of them got killed or crucified for their beliefs. Followers of Hindu sects starve and torture themselves for years in devout asceticism. Modern cult members cut off all ties with their families and give all their money to "prophets." There is absolutely nothing unique about Muhammad's followers making sacrifices to follow him—this happens in every religious tradition, from Zoroaster to modern doomsday cults. So answer your own question for all of these other religions.

And further on - be teachers for mankind, for the most advanced civilization in the world?
Actually China was pretty consistently more advanced than the Islamic Empire at the time....

You know that many of these companions later on became governors of the great Persia [former Sassanid empire], Syria [former byzantine power], within just a few years after Prophet Muhammad's death right?
But I thought you said they sacrificed so much in this world. Getting cushy governorships of quasi-imperial states sounds pretty nice to me.

So much for the whole "sacrifice" argument I guess.

If he was false in his Prophecies, then why did they believe his claim and actually achieve it?
If Heaven's Gate's leader was false in his Prophecies about aliens coming to earth then why did his followers believe his claims and actually commit a mass suicide, thus achieving it?

I've explained what I think about Muhammad's true intentions. I'd like to hear what you think all these other prophets were up to. We can start with Joseph Smith. Why do you think Joseph Smith was a fraud?
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the purpose of stories is using them in a religious context, for morals and so on, not to entertain us or tell it simply for the telling as many -even muslims- seem to think. the problem arose when some muslims used jewish, sabean and other texts to explain parts of the qur'an, or took some parts too literally.
Qingu was trying to use the presence of tales in holy texts as a refutation to them, my reply is in that context.
The Quran doesn't have wild tall tales.. it is a very intelligent book if I am to over look all else.. the ten percent concentrating on miraculous events are appropriate for their time, and it is part of the transcendence -- the Quran is very much relevant today as it was centuries ago..

I'll agree however in the context that one shouldn't fixate on infinitesimal detail while ignoring the bigger picture and we can see that very clearly in chapter 18 Al-kahf

21. And thus We made their case known to the people, that they might know that the Promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour. (Remember) when they (the people of the city) disputed among themselves about their case, they said: "Construct a building over them, their Lord knows best about them," (then) those who won their point said (most probably the disbelievers): "We verily shall build a place of worship over them."

22. (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth, guessing at the unseen; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say (O Muhammad ): "My Lord knows best their number; none knows them but a few." So debate not (about their number, etc.) except with the clear proof (which We have revealed to you). And consult not any of them (people of the Scripture, Jews and Christians) about (the affair of) the people of the Cave.

one of the take home messages from this sura, isn't about their number or argument of their case, or the years they'd spent in recourse in the cave, or the fact that it was witnessed by others who built a sanctuary above them, rather that it happened as a sign from God, to liken that such as this promise happened so too shall the promise of the end!


And Allah swt knows best

:w:
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 01:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Fo


"All of us?" Almost all biologists—whose job it is to study life—believe in chemical evolution or abiogenesis.

?
before I got my doctorate I had my B.S and M.S in molecular biology.. I along my many colleagues don't believe in abiogensis or spontaneous chemical evolution.. I am curious as to what degree you hold to speak on behalf of almost the entire scientific community?
Reply

alcurad
12-06-2008, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I'll agree however in the context that one shouldn't fixate on infinitesimal detail while ignoring the bigger picture and we can see that very clearly in chapter 18 Al-kahf...
:w:
I was actually going to write the same example, thanks.
Reply

August
12-06-2008, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
I truly don't get how you are comparing Joseph Smith with prophet Muhammad, it's not a very accurate example, don't you think?
It's not entirely accurate, and not meant to be insulting, but they do have some similarities including, from my perspective, the fact that they were both false prophets.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 03:04 AM
Perhaps you can show us the similarities?
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 03:20 AM
perhaps you can explain to us how Joseph smih is different than the other false prophet Paul/Saul (no offense intended of course) this should make for an interesting theological discussion actually.. show us why Paul isn't a false prophet and why Smith is and how that relates to Islam? That is the scientific approach to religion me thinkus.. start by proving the other guy wrong and illogical!

Let's give you a headstart to work with on Mormonism --

The Articles of Faith are as follows:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this, the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul — We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

then take the Quran challenge

http://www.themodernreligion.com/bas..._challenge.htm

which gave the world
* Mathematical evolution of spherical mirrors

* Rectilinear motion of light and use of lenses

* Refraction angle variations

* Magnifying effects of the plano convex lens

* Introduced the concept of the elliptical shape of cosmological bodies

* Study of the center of gravity as applied to balance

* Measurement of specific weights of bodies

* Rule of algebraic equations

* Solutions to quadratic and cubic equations

* Work on square roots, squares, theory of numbers, solution of the fractional numbers

* Solutions of equations of cubic order

* Wrote on conic geometry elaborating the solution of algebraic equations

* Determined the Trinomial Equation

* Avicenna's "Canon of Medicine." He is know as the Prince of Physicians to the West

* Wrote the first description of several drugs and diseases as meningitis.

* Treatment of physiological shocks

* Expertise in psychosomatic medicine and psychology

* Al-Biruni mentions fifty six manuscripts on pharmacology

* Credited for identifying small pox and its treatment

* Use of alcohol as an antiseptic

* Use of mercury as a purgative for the first time

* First to describe the circulation of blood.

* "Holy Abbas" was, after Rhazes, the most outstanding Physician. His works were authoritative till the works of ibn Sina appeared

* Writings on Cosmology, Astrology, Science of numbers and letters

* Proved that the earth is smaller than the sun but larger than the moon.

* Final authorities on Chemistry for many Centuries

* Classified metals into three classifications

* Laid the basis of the Acid Base theory

* Distillation, calcination, crystallization, the discovery of many acids

* Cultivation of Gold - is a continuation of Jabir's work

* Theory of Oscillatory motion of equinoxes

* Addition of ninth sphere to the eight Ptolematic astronomy

* Discovered the increase of the suns apogee

* Gravitational force

* Responsible for the discovery motion of the solar apsides

* wrote ' On the Science of Stars '

* Determination of latitudes and longitudes

* Determination of geodetic measurements

* Described the motion of the planets

* Solved the problems of spherical trigonometry

* First to study the isometric oscillatory motion of a pendulum

* Invented the instrument ' Sahifah "

* Responsible for the proof of the motion of the apogee of the sun with respect to the fixed stars.

* authorities on the theory of the system of homocentric spheres

just so we are on the same plane?
Reply

August
12-06-2008, 03:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
perhaps you can explain to us how Joseph smih is different than the other false prophet Paul/Saul (no offense intended of course) this should make for an interesting theological discussion actually.. show us why Paul isn't a false prophet and why Smith is and how that relates to Islam?
Hmmm.... that is a good question. Answering this fully will take more research than I have time for right now, I have finals coming up. A quick answer would be to say that Paul never claimed to be a prophet. He wasn't handing down new revelations, he was spreading the teachings of Christ. Paul wasn't setting himself up as the head of a new religion, it was Peter (the first pope)who was given the keys to the kingdom. Paul (and Muhamad btw) also didn't invent stories about a huge lost civilization for which no evidence can be found.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 03:48 AM
Let me make your job easier about paul.. btw a prophet = Someone who speaks by divine inspiration which is something Saul/Paul claimed in fact along with changing the entire teaching of Jesus.. and after this post look for the lost cities from the Quran which are now found =)

Why Paul is a false prophet


I cried out to the Father, the Most High God, "Just Give Me The Truth!" and since then He has revealed many truths to me. When I asked Him what I should name
this website He said, "the same thing you said to Me several years ago, "Just give me the truth!"


By Sherry Shriner .... sounding the alarm on what was, is, and is to come


Just Give Me The Truth - Home


The Apostle Paul Was A Deceiver!

He was Satan In The Flesh! An Antichrist!

Matthew 24:4-5 states you will be deceived by people that come using Jesus’ name. Consider the parable of the sower. Jesus was warning us then that as soon as His Gospel was preached, the enemy (Paul) would be there to steal the truth!


***The real (untranslated) name of Jesus is Y'hoshua (pronounced like the name Joshua but with a Y, YoHoshua, some pronounce his name as Yeshua). All refer to the Son of God who came as the promised Messiah who died on the cross for our sins and rose again.

Now before you throw a tantrum and wonder why I haven't been struck by lightening straight from the throne room of God, I can prove to you that Paul was a Fraud using his own words. Of course, if you're a female, and you're in the ministry, you already know he was, you probably just didn't realize it! For to be a female and in the ministry of the Lord, you had to turn your back on Paul to follow Jesus. Congrats! You figured it out! You refused to buy into the lie pie Satan tried to sell you as Paul!

I'm going to make some startling points to wake your mind up into the truth, so hear me out, then I'll go through and explain each one and give you all the proof you need to see for yourself that what I'm saying is indeed the truth.

Paul was Satan in the Flesh

Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus

Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. He received his knowledge from "revelations."

Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying.

Paul declared he was teaching another Gospel of which he himself was the Father

Paul declared he himself was the son of God

Paul issued his own commandments and laws for people to adhere to

Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did.

Paul worked to destroy and undo everything Jesus and His disciples did and were doing.

Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor of Christians at that time! He boasted about it! Over and Over!

Paul said God's law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who's lying?

Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5.

Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what “he preached.” He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads - “That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.” He's telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!"

Paul cursed Jesus and His disciples

Paul claimed he himself was the son of God

Paul Supported and demanded Adherence to Iniquity (Discrimination), Jesus said to not let it be found among us! Who's lying?



Jesus: When Yahshua confronts the Adversary, he defeats him by saying, "You shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH, and Him alone will you serve."

Paul: When Paul is mobbed by people who wish to stone him for preaching against the Law of YHWH, he relies on the worldly authorities as a Roman entitled to the protection of the government rulers who save him (Dt. 8:3, Mt.4:4, Acts 22:26, 23:27



Jesus: "DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER; for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, HE who is in heaven"
(Matthew 23:9)

The devil 'PAUL' BLASPEMOUSLY BOASTED

"For I BECAME YOUR FATHER"
(1 Corinthians 4:15)

" JESUS came to Galilee PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM "
(Mark 1:14, Matt.4:23).
JESUS said " THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM will be PREACHED, IN MY NAME in all the world
(Matt.24:14).
'PAUL' CAME preaching, by his own admission, ANOTHER GOSPEL PROMOTING LAWLESSNESS and LICENTIOUSNESS

many excerpts taken from disciplesofchrist.com

"I ('PAUL') testify to the gospel of the grace of god...ANOTHER GOSPEL...ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL "
(Acts 20:24. 2 Corinthians 11:4. 1 Corinthians 10:23).

"PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS EVEN DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD (THE FATHER) AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (THE FATHER'S SON)"
(Jude 4. 1 John 2:22)



'PAUL' CURSED JESUS CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES
" If we or an angel from heaven preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL to you than what we (Paul and his followers) have preached to you LET HIM BE A CURSE"
(Gal 1:18)
There was a distinction even back then with the disciples of Jesus and Paul and "his" followers. Barnabbas and Mark both followed Paul at one time and then left him and went back to the disciples. Barnabbas was sent by the Apostle Peter to travel with Paul and teach Paul the ways and teachings of Jesus, but Paul wasn't going to play second fiddle to anyone and usurped the authority of Barnabbas and taught what he wanted to teach. How many ever knew that Paul was suppose to be subservient to Barnabbas?









"Indeed I PAUL say to you that IF ANYONE BECOME CIRCUMCISED Christ will profit you nothing " (Gal. 5:2).

too bad Paul! The circumcision was a sign of the covenant between Israel and Yahovah and you're lie was exposed for what it was! Another false "divine revelation!"

YET, despite his assertion that 'Christ will profit you nothing', 'Paul' himself, HYPOCRITICALLY " took TIMOTHY and CIRCUMCISED HIM "
(Acts 16:3).




Now Paul declares it's ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols

" For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than THESE NECESSARY THINGS:
That you ABSTAIN FROM MEATS offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled and from fornication..."
(Acts 15:28:29)
" But I (Jesus) have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a STUMBLING BLOCK before the children of Israel, TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS "
(Revelation 2:14)






" I ( PAUL ) have laid a FOUNDATION...the FOUNDATION OF APOSTLES AND PROPHETS "

( 1 Cor.3:10. Eph 2:20 The words of PSALM 68:18 read "HE (ALMIGHTY GOD) RECEIVED gifts FROM men" (Psalm 68:18)

'Paul' TOOK AWAY FROM the words of Psalm 68:18 and changed them to read "he GAVE gifts TO men" (Ephesians 4:8)





Now do you wonder why there's so much strife and division in our churches today? Because they're filled with Saul-Paul-Satan who completely contradicts the Real Word of God!




in Hebrew the name "Saul" means underworld, borrowed



"AND THIS GOSPEL WILL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE EARTH FOR A WITNESS TO ME. AND THEN THE END WILL COME; THIS (THE END) IS THE ANTI-CHRIST AND THIS (THE ANTI-CHRIST) IS THE ABOMINATION WHICH DESOLATES WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL AS STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE (IN THE PLACE OF MESSIAH); LET THE ONE WHO READS UNDERSTAND"
(Matthew 24:14,15 Shem Tov Jewish translation from original Jewish Version as written by Matthew)


THE COMING OF

"THE END...THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE "

**PROPHESIED BY DANIEL**


"He said, "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of THE END...".
"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
(Daniel 8:19. 11:31. 12:11)

THE ARRIVAL OF

" THE END...THE ANTICHRIST, THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE"

**CONFIRMED BY THE APOSTLE JOHN**


" Little children, IT IS THE LAST HOUR (THE END); and as ye have heard THE ANTICHRIST SHALL COME, even NOW there are MANY ANTICHRISTS; this is how we know that it is THE LAST HOUR (THE END)"
(1 John 2:18)


YESHUA (JESUS) THE MESSIAH FURTHER WARNED


"MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
'I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER'
(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10)




" JESUS said to them " I SAW SATAN FALL, LIKE LIGHTNING, FROM HEAVEN"
(Luke 10:18)

"So the great DRAGON was cast out FROM HEAVEN, that SERPENT of old called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; HE WAS CAST TO THE EARTH AND HIS ANGELS WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM "
(Revelation 12:9. Matthew 13:39)

" As SAUL journeyed he came near Damascus and suddenly A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN (LIGHTNING) shone around him and he fell to the ground"
(Acts 9:3,4)


SCALES OF THE SERPENT

" there fell from SAUL'S eyes something like SCALES (of the SERPENT)"
(Acts 9:18)

"YESHUA (JESUS) SAID YOU HAVE TESTED THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES AND ARE NOT AND HAVE FOUND THEM TO BE LIARS "
(Revelation 2:2)

YESHUA (JESUS) THE MESSIAH WARNED

"MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
'I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER'
(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10)



THE DIVINE TEST OF A TRUE APOSTLE OF YESHUA (JESUS) THE MESSIAH

Peter established a test for apostles:
"PETER said...therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us ALL THE TIME that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN until THE DAY HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US --one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

(Acts 1:21,22) In other words, in order to be an apostle you would have had to have been a disciple first!

(NOTE: Because 'Paul', Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanus and others failed to meet the TEST, set by Peter they were "REJECTED BY ALL IN ASIA"; as acknowledged by 'Paul' and Timothy).

" This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME "
(2 Tim. 1:15).



SAUL (who changed his name to 'Paul') ENEMY OF JESUS CHRIST



JESUS prophesied "...IF ANOTHER COMES, IN HIS OWN NAME, YOU (Scribes and Pharisees) WILL RECEIVE HIM"
(John 5:43b)

" SAUL who is ALSO called 'PAUL'
( Acts 13:9 )
JESUS prophesied " While men slept HIS ENEMY came and sowed TARES
(Matt.13:25).
" UNGODLY MEN...WHO HAVE SECRETLY CREPT IN TO OUR ASSEMBLIES "
(Jude 4)
" JESUS said to them AN ENEMY has done this "
(Matthew 13:28)
PAUL' THE DEVIL
( Matthew 13:39. Matthew 25:41 )


JESUS explained: " THE ENEMY who sowed THE TARES is THE DEVIL "
( Matt.13:39 )
" THE EVIL ONE "
( Matthew 13:38. Matt. 6:13. John 17:15 )
" There fell from SAUL'S eyes, something like SCALES(of the SERPENT"
(Acts 9:18)

'PAUL' A MURDERER
Paul BOASTED about being the persecutor of the Jews.

He NEVER Repented or sought their forgiveness.

Or God's!

JESUS said " He was a MURDERER from the beginning "
(John 8:44)
"He shall PERSECUTE the saints of The Most HIGH"
(Daniel 7:25)
"SAUL was in hearty agreement with putting Stephen to death. And on that day a GREAT PERSECUTION began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles".
"But SAUL began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison".
" SAUL breathing THREATS and MURDER against the disciples of The Lord "
(Acts 8:1-3. 9:1 )

'PAUL' SPOKE AGAINST GOD,THE FATHER and SOUGHT to MAKE ALTERATIONS IN TIMES AND IN LAW, AS PROPHESIED BY DANIEL

"He shall speak POMPOUS WORDS AGAINST THE MOST HIGH...AND SHALL INTEND TO MAKE ALTERATIONS IN TIMES AND IN LAW"
(Daniel 7:25)

'PAUL' SPOKE the POMPOUS WORDS

"For I BECAME YOUR FATHER"
(1 Corinthians 4:15)

JESUS quoted "TWO COMMANDMENTS" requiring (1) LOVE OF GOD,THE FATHER and (2) LOVE OF NEIGHBOUR:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love THE LORD THY GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is THE FIRST and great commandment. And the SECOND is like unto it. Thou shall love THY NEIGHBOUR as thyself. On these TWO commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS".
(Matthew 22:37-40).

The devil 'Paul' showed his HATRED FOR GOD, THE FATHER by teaching THE LIE:

"For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in ONE WORD, even in this: Thou shall love THY NEIGHBOUR (no LOVE FOR GOD) as thyself"
(Galations 5:14. Romans 13:9)

" ALL THINGS are PERMISSABLE"
(1 Corinthians 6:12)


(NOTE: Because the devil 'Paul' taught the REMOVAL of the first FOUR of the TEN COMMANDMENTS which require LOVE OF GOD, THE FATHER; christians have sought to corrupt the same FIRST FOUR COMMANDMENTS by (1) substituting 'trinity' instead of GOD,THE FATHER THE ONLY TRUE GOD (2)completely REMOVING THE SECOND and (3) TRAMPLE ON THE THIRD and (4)SUBSTITUTED 'sunday'the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK for THE SABBATH (SEVENTH DAY) (ALTERATIONS IN TIMES)



'PAUL' THE ANTICHRIST ' and THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE



"...THAT WHICH IS ESTEEMED among men IS AN ABOMINATION in the sight of GOD"
(Luke 16:15)

"YESHUA (JESUS) SAID AND THEN THE END WILL COME; THIS (THE END) IS THE ANTI-CHRIST AND THIS (THE ANTI-CHRIST) IS THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATES WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL AS STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE (IN THE PLACE OF CHRIST)...
(Matthew 24:15 Shem Tov Jewish vsn. Daniel 9:27. 12:11)
"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE is set up, there will be 1,290 days ".
(Daniel 12:11)
(NOTE: 'PAUL', the 'THE ANTI-CHRIST and THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLATE' made his 'ungodly' appearance EXACTLY "1290 days" after the death of Yeshua (Jesus) The MESSIAH as prophesied by Daniel. On the very day when Yeshua (Jesus) ' made himself an offering for sin' (Isaiah 53:10), 'the regular sacrifice ' was 'abolished'; confirmed by God, the Father when " The veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom" as recorded in Matthew 27:51)
"...and on the wing of ABOMINATIONS will come ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
(Daniel 9:27)
"...as you heard that ANTICHRIST IS COMING, even now MANY ANTICHRISTS HAVE APPEARED;"
(1 John 2:18. Matthew 13:38,39)
The TRUE apostle, also John declared " HE is THE ANTICHRIST who DENIES BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON "
(1 John 2:22)



'PAUL' BLASPHEMOUSLY BOASTED THAT HE WAS GOD, THE FATHER



JESUS WARNS HIS DISCIPLES:


"DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER; for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, HE who is in heaven"
(Matthew 23:9)

The devil 'PAUL' BLASPEMOUSLY BOASTED:

"For I BECAME YOUR FATHER"
(1 Corinthians 4:15)


NOTE: Everyone of 'Paul's' papal successors BLASPHEMOUSLY claim, like 'Paul', the title "HOLY FATHER"; which Title belongs, EXCLUSIVELY, to THE ONLY TRUE GOD, THE FATHER, as testified by JESUS "HOLY FATHER" (John 17:3,11)



'PAUL' BOASTED THAT HE WAS EQUAL TO JESUS CHRIST
THE ANTICHRIST 'PAUL' BOASTED " In nothing was I behind THE MOST EMINENT (JESUS CHRIST)...IN SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIGHTY DEEDS " (2 Cor. 12:11)


YESHUA(JESUS) THE MESSIAH WARNED

"MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
'I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER'
(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10)


The TRUE APOSTLE PETER testified: " JESUS of Nazareth A MAN ATTESTED BY GOD to you BY MIRACLES, WONDERS AND SIGNS "
(Acts 2:22)



NOTE: This diabolical " BOAST " was in fulfillment of the warning given by JESUS:
"For false christs and false prophets will arise and will show GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS, so as to MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect "
(Matthew 24:24. see also Acts 15:12)



' PAUL ' BOASTED THAT HE WAS HOLIER THAN JESUS CHRIST

" IF ANYONE ELSE thinks he has confidence in the flesh I (PAUL) MORE SO,
" concerning the RIGHTEOUSNESS which is in THE LAW I (PAUL) AM BLAMELESS "
(Phil. 3:6).


'PAUL' BRAZENLY CLAIMED TO BEING THE SON OF GOD



YESHUA(JESUS) THE MESSIAH WARNED
"MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
'I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER'
(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10)

"YESHUA (JESUS) SAID "I AM THE SON OF GOD"
(John 10:36)


The DEVIL AND FALSE APOSTLE 'Paul' said:
" It pleased god to reveal his SON in ME ('PAUL')"
( Gal. 1:15,16 )

THE ANTICHRIST 'Paul' ALSO BOASTED " In nothing was I behind THE MOST EMINENT (JESUS CHRIST)...IN SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIGHTY DEEDS "
> (2 Cor. 12:11)

" JESUS warned " MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING 'I AM THE MESSIAH' AND WILL SHOW SIGNS AND WONDERS AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY "
(MATTHEW 24:5,24 )




'PAUL' FALSELY CLAIMED THAT HE WAS AN APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES


That the APOSTLE PETER was the Divinely appointed "APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES" was unquestioned by The Twelve Apostles of The Lamb as PETER himself reminded them, at the Council meeting in Jerusalem:
"After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe"
(Acts 15:7).
At the same Council meeting the false apostle 'Paul' had "SECRETLY CREPT IN" (Jude 4) by changing his name from Saul to 'Paul'. When PETER had completed his testimony the false apostle 'Paul' sought to assert his self-assumed apostolic authority by "showing signs and wonders to deceive, if possible the elected twelve, as Yeshua (Jesus) had warned" (Acts 15:12. Matthew 24:24).
When this failed the devil and false apostle 'Paul' later sought to usurp the Divinely appointed authority of the APOSTLE PETER as the "APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES". 'Paul'wrote the LIE to his Galation followers that he ('Paul')and NOT PETER "was entrusted with the gospel to the Gentiles" (Galations 2:7). In that same infamous letter 'Paul' also attacked the integrity of the faithful apostle PETER by making un-corroborated and FALSE CHARGES against PETER. These same LIES have been preached and written about by Pauline Christian ministers for the last two thousand years.


PAUL IDENTIFIED BY THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST 666
( Revelation 13:18 )


" Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding reckon the NUMBER OF THE BEAST, for it is THE NUMBER OF A MAN; and HIS number is six hundred and sixty six (666)."
(Revelation 13:18)
In HEBREW the number 666 is identified by the HEBREW LETTERS TRSV;
T=400, R=200, S=60, V=6 Which TOTAL 666.
TRSV is pronounced TARSU.
(NOTE: In Scripture the PLACE OF ORIGIN IDENTIFIES the person; eg "Jesus of Nazareth", "Joseph of Arimathea", "Paul of Tarsu".
"PAUL OF TARSU(TRSV)" is identified by THE NUMBER 666.

LIKEWISE IN THE GREEK


THE NUMBER 666 is the sum of the numerical value of the Greek Letters in the Greek word LATEINOS, which means " THE LATIN MAN ".
THE GREEK WORD L A T E I N O S
THE GREEK NUMERIC VALUE 30 1 300 5 10 50 70 200 = 666

The association of "Lateinos" with 666 was acknowledged, with great embarassment, by the historian IRENAEUS (ca. 130-202 A.D.),in his document 'Against Heresies', "For the Latins are they who at present bear rule...this being the name of the last kingdom (of the four seen by Daniel)...I will not, however, make any boast over this (coincidence)...".

The COWARD 'PAUL' identified himself as
" a man that is a Roman "
(Acts 22:25)

in order to escape persecution and death.

'Paul' " a man that is a Roman " is " The Latin Man ".
666
IS " THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME "
(Revelation 13:18).

IN BOTH the HEBREW and THE GREEK THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME IS 666


'PAUL' THE FIRST CHRISTIAN POPE



As foretold by JESUS, when THE DEVIL, THE ANTICHRIST, THE ABOMINATION WHICH MAKES DESOLTATE, AND FALSE APOSTLE 'PAUL' had FOUNDED CHRISTIANITY, "HE WENT AWAY"(Matthew 13:25) to ROME.

Having secured safe passage,under the patronage of CAESAR, he was taken to to ROME, under the pretence of being a prisoner.
Upon arrival at Rome 'Paul' was installed in a luxurious villa where
" he was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who was guarding him (for his own protection)"
(Acts 27:1. 28:16).
This "soldier" was the very first of the " vatican guards " supplied by CAESAR to provide protection to 'Paul' and his papal successors.
Everyone of the christian Popes, who have since succeeded the first Pope 'Paul', to the office of the papacy, are identified by the same NUMBER OF THE BEAST (666). Like 'PAUL' the Christian Popes BLASPHEMOUSLY claim the Titles "HOLY FATHER" and 'vicar of christ (instead of christ); which is inscribed on their tiaras.



' PAUL ' A LIAR '



JESUS said: " HE is A LIAR and THE FATHER OF LIES "
(John 8:44)


JESUS commended HIS DISCIPLES in HIS CHURCH at EPHESUS:
" You have tested those who SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES and ARE NOT and have found them LIARS"
(Rev. 2:2)
'Paul' BOASTED of his LIES
If through MY LIE God's truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
(Romans 3:7)
In every way, whether in PRETENCE or in truth, Jesus is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice

(Philippians 1:18)


PAUL made THE LYING BOAST to being SINLESS:



" If anyone else thinks he has confidence in the flesh I ('Paul')MORE SO...
concerning THE RIGHTOUSNESS which is in THE LAW, I ('PAUL')AM BLAMELESS "
( Phil 3:6 ).
JESUS DECLARES 'PAUL' AS BEING A LIAR when he states ;
" NOT ONE OF YOU KEEPS THE LAW "
(John 7:19).



' PAUL ' REJECTED BY THE TWELVE APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES OF JESUS



" But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "
(Acts 9:26).
"All the people kept (stunned)silence, as they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what SIGNS AND WONDERS 'God had done through them among the Gentiles'.
"After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, LISTEN TO ME".
(Acts 15:12,13).

NOTE the swift intervention of James telling " all the people...LISTEN TO ME " and not be " listening " to "Barnabas and Paul" who attempted to " SHOW SIGNS AND WONDERS TO DECEIVE, IF POSSIBLE, EVEN THE ELECT " as Jesus warned in Matthew 24:24.



'PAUL' COMPLAINED BITTERLY to his disciple Timothy
" This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME "
(2 Tim. 1:15).



'PAUL' PREACHED ANOTHER GOSPEL.



" JESUS came to Galilee PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM "
(Mark 1:14, Matt.4:23).
JESUS said " THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM will be PREACHED, IN MY NAME in all the world
(Matt.24:14).
'PAUL' CAME preaching, by his own admission, ANOTHER GOSPEL PROMOTING LAWLESSNESS and LICENTIOUSNESS


"I ('PAUL') testify to the gospel of the grace of god...ANOTHER GOSPEL...ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL "
(Acts 20:24. 2 Corinthians 11:4. 1 Corinthians 10:23).

"PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS EVEN DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD (THE FATHER) AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (THE FATHER'S SON)"
(Jude 4. 1 John 2:22)



'PAUL' CURSED JESUS CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES
.


" If we or an angel from heaven preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL to you than what we have preached to you LET HIM BE A CURSE"
(Gal 1:18)
.
NOTE: ONLY amongst christians, in every christian home, office, workshop, place of worship, theatre, cinema, radio, television etc is "THE NOBLE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST" (James 2:7) used as " a curse " as commanded by the devil and false apostle 'Paul'.


PAUL A HYPOCRITE
.


" Indeed I PAUL say to you that IF ANYONE BECOME CIRCUMCISED Christ will profit you nothing " (Gal. 5:2).

YET, despite his assertion that 'Christ will profit you nothing', 'Paul' himself, HYPOCRITICALLY " took TIMOTHY and CIRCUMCISED HIM "
(Acts 16:3).
" PAUL took the men HAVING BEEN PURIFIED WITH THEM ".
(Acts 21:26)



PAUL ENCOURAGED THE EATING OF FOOD OFFERED TO IDOLS.


" I (Paul) am fully convinced NO FOOD is UNCLEAN in itself "
(Romans 14:14)


THIS EVIL TEACHING IS IN BLATANT DISREGARD FOR THE COMMAND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE TWELVE APOSTLES
" For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than THESE NECESSARY THINGS:
That you ABSTAIN FROM MEATS offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled and from fornication..."
(Acts 15:28:29)
" But I (Jesus) have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a STUMBLING BLOCK before the children of Israel, TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS "
(Revelation 2:14)

NOTE: CHRISTIANS in every country EAT BLOOD PRODUCTS such as 'black and white puddings and PORK MEATS


PAUL FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY
.

YESHUA (JESUS) THE MESSIAH PROPHESIED

"And this gospel will be preached in all the earth for a witness to me. THEN THE END WILL COME; THIS (THE END) IS THE ANTI-CHRIST AND THIS (THE END) IS THE ABOMINATION WHICH DESOLATES WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL AS STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE (IN THE PLACE OF MESSIAH); LET THE ONE WHO READS UNDERSTAND"
(Matthew 24:14,15 Shem Tov Jewish translation from original Jewish Version as written by Matthew)
YESHUA(JESUS) THE MESSIAH WARNED
"MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
'I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER'
(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10)



" I ( PAUL ) have laid a FOUNDATION...the FOUNDATION OF APOSTLES AND PROPHETS "
( 1 Cor.3:10. Eph 2:20
.

In order to justify his appointment of 'APOSTLES and PROPHETS', 'Paul CHANGED OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURE.

The words of PSALM 68:18 read "HE (ALMIGHTY GOD) RECEIVED gifts FROM men" (Psalm 68:18)
'Paul' TOOK AWAY FROM the words of Psalm 68:18 and changed them to read "he GAVE gifts TO men" (Ephesians 4:8)


" Now in the church that was in ANTIOCH there were certain PROPHETS...and PAUL "
(Acts 13:1).
" PAUL'S disciples "
(Acts 9:25).
" The DISCIPLES (of 'PAUL') were first CALLED CHRISTIANS in ANTIOCH "
(Acts 11:26).



'PAUL' MADE ALTERATIONS TO SCRIPTURE AS PROPHESIED BY DANIEL
.


"He shall speak POMPOUS WORDS AGAINST THE MOST HIGH...AND SHALL INTEND TO MAKE ALTERATIONS IN TIMES AND IN LAW"
(Daniel 7:25)

In order to jusify" BARNABAS and I (PAUL) NOT WORKING FOR A LIVING LIKE OTHER MEN "
(1 Cor. 9:9).
PAUL "MADE ALTERATIONS IN...LAW" which commands:
" You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain "
(Deut 25:4).

In giving this command to MOSES, GOD was showing HIS CONCERN for the welfare of the oxen (see also Proverbs 12:10)" A righteous man regards the life of his animal ".

PAUL teaches the BRAZEN LIE that " GOD is NOT CONCERNED with OXEN (but)...says it ALTOGETHER for our sakes " (1 Cor. 9:9)..

NOTE: This is a UNIVERSAL MARK of 'PAUL' and HIS CHRISTIAN FELLOW WORKERS they" DO NOT WORK FOR A LIVING LIKE OTHER MEN".

The devil 'Paul' and his christian ministers(angels) are THE ONLY PEOPLE who "BUY AND SELL"(Revelation 13:17) their evil doctrines for "MONEY".
(Jude 11. Revelation 13:17).

"and he('Paul')provides that no one will be able to BUY OR SELL, except the one who has the mark (the 'cross'), or the name of the beast or the number of his name.
(Revelation 13:17. Matthew 25:9,10)
"THE DEALERS...FOR PAY"
(Matthew 25:9,10. Jude 11)




'PAUL' USED DECEIT IN HIS APPOINTMENT OF CHRISTIAN MINISTERS



In order to justify his appointment of 'APOSTLES and PROPHETS, pastors, teachers etc ', 'Paul CHANGED OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURE.

The words of PSALM 68:18 read "HE (ALMIGHTY GOD) RECEIVED gifts FROM men" (Psalm 68:18, 29)

'Paul' TOOK AWAY FROM the words of Psalm 68:18 by seeking to change them to read "he GAVE gifts TO men" (Ephesians 4:8)

'Paul' also TOOK AWAY FROM the words of Psalm 68:18 by TAKING AWAY the words "THE LORD"(GOD, THE FATHER)(Psa. 68:4,5) and seeking to apply them to someone else.



PAUL'S HATRED OF THE POOR AND NEEDY


The devil 'Paul' commands his Christian followers: "If anyone among you leads a vagabond life HE MUST BE LEFT TO STARVE...HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM...LET THEM EAT THEIR OWN BREAD" (2 Thessalonians 3:6-12 Ronald Knox Roman catholic 1955 Trans.)


THE ANGELS OF THE DEVIL ' PAUL '.



YESHUA(JESUS) THE MESSIAH WARNED
"MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
'I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER'
(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10)



JESUS CALLED THEM " THE TARES, SONS OF THE EVIL ONE " `
(Matt. 13:38).
" SATAN'S ANGELS were cast out FROM HEAVEN to the earth with SATAN"
(Revelation 12:9)
"UNGODLY MEN ...WHO LONG AGO WERE DESIGNATED FOR THIS CONDEMNATION"
(Jude 4)
"DEMONS...UNCLEAN SPIRITS...FOUL AND HATEFUL BIRDS"
(Revelation 18:2).

'PAUL' BOASTED THAT HE WAS THE FATHER OF DEMONS

"For I BECAME YOUR FATHER"
(1 Corinthians 4:15)

(Jude 1:19)

'Paul' himself gave them titles:

" Apostles and prophets, fathers, pastors, evangelists and teachers...bishops, deacons,exorcists, miracle workers, speakers in unknown languages, administrators etc "
(Eph 4:11. Phil. 1:1. 1 Corinthians 4:15).


These can be found within the *TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND* CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS and bearing the following diabolical titles:


Popes, cardinals, patriarchs, moderators, monsignors,apostles, prophets,fathers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, bishops, deacons, miracle workers, speakers in unknown tongues, exorcists, administrators etc.

(** NOTE: Barrett's " World-wide Encyclopedia of Christianity " records in the 1988 edition:
" In Christianity there are in the region of 28,000 ( YES! Twenty Eight Thousand ) different denominations "('FACTIONS'); and further describes this as " Sectarianism run riot ". This encyclopedia also makes the following ****ing statement:
"(the members of)these distinct denominations ALL HATE ONE ANOTHER".)


'PAUL' AND HIS CHRISTIAN MINISTERS SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN
.


JESUS said " They neither go in themselves nor do they allow those who want to enter from going in "
(Matt. 23:13)
.


THE JUDGEMENT UPON THE DEVIL PAUL AND HIS CHRISTIAN FELLOW WORKERS


THE SON OF MAN, JESUS THE MESSIAH (CHRIST)
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
OF THE LIVING AND ONLY TRUE GOD GOD, THE FATHER
IS NOW SEATED ON HIS GLORIOUS THRONE
AS

" KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS "
(Matthew 25:31. 16:16. John 17:3. Revelation 19:16)
" DIVINELY APPOINTED JUDGE OF THE LIVING AND THE DEAD"

(John 5:22. Acts 10:42)

JESUS NOWCOMMANDS
THE DEVIL 'PAUL' AND HIS ANGELS


"DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS, I NEVER KNEW YOU.
DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO ARE CURSED, INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE
PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.
FOR I WAS HUNGRY AND YOU GAVE ME NOTHING TO EAT;
I WAS THIRSTY AND YOU GAVE ME NOTHING TO DRINK;
I WAS A STRANGER AND YOU DID NOT INVITE ME IN;
I WAS NAKED AND YOU DID NOT CLOTHE ME;
I WAS SICK AND IN PRISON AND YOU DID NOT VISIT ME.


THESE WILL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT"
(Matt 7:23. Matthew 13:42.and 25:41-43,46.Jude 13).
" WOE TO YOU, SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES,
BECAUSE YOU SHUT OFF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN FROM PEOPLE;
FOR YOU DO NOT ENTER IN YOURSELVES,
NOR DO YOU ALLOW THOSE WHO ARE ENTERING TO GO IN "
(Matthew 23:13)




THE PLACE OF THE JUDGEMENT
.


" Then JESUS' disciples asked Him WHERE?...
(Luke 17:37)
.

JESUS answered " wherever the dead body lies THERE will the VULTURES be gathered together ".
(Luke 17:37)

THE DEVIL 'PAUL' AND HIS CHRISTIAN FELLOW WORKERS(ANGELS)are THE VULTURES referred to by JESUS.
These ASSEMBLIES OF THE DEVIL 'PAUL' are BOUND IN BUNDLES TO BE BURNED.
AT the command of the DEVIL 'PAUL', these BUNDLES have been DIVIDED up into 'FACTIONS '
" There MUST also be FACTIONS AMONG YOU "
(1 Cor. 11:19).


THESE " FACTIONS " or CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS have resulted in their DELUDED FOLLOWERS being "DIVIDED UP FOR MONEY and HATING ONE ANOTHER "
(Jude 11,19. Matt 24:10,12.)


Within the following" FACTIONS " of Christianity.,



Roman catholic, Greek, Coptic and Russian orthodox, Anglican, Calvinist, Lutheran, Churches of christ, Seventh day adventists, Congregational, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostals, Assemblies of god, Apostolic assemblies, Victory outreach assemblies, C.O.R.E. assemblies, Exclusive and non-exclusive Brethren assemblies, together with in excess of *TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND*' Evangelical ' FACTIONS which are found within christianity.
(** NOTE: Barrett's " World-wide Encyclopedia of Christianity " records in the 1988 edition:
" In Christianity there are in the region of 28,000 ( YES! Twenty Eight Thousand ) different denominations "('FACTIONS'); and further describes this as " Sectarianism run riot ". This encyclopedia also makes the following ****ing statement:
"(the members of)these distinct denominations ALL HATE ONE ANOTHER".)


" BABYLON THE GREAT
(Roman Catholicism)...
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
(Thousands of christian denominations )...
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
(Blasphemous names, titles and practices)...
OF THE EARTH"
(Revelation 17:5)
"BABYLON THE GREAT, IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN; SHE HAS BECOME A DWELLING PLACE OF DEMONS A HAUNT OF EVERY UNCLEAN SPIRIT AND A HAUNT OF EVERY UNCLEAN AND HATEFUL BIRD "
(Revelation 18:2)



ALMIGHTY GOD, THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST,URGENTLY CALLS TO HIS PEOPLE TRAPPED WITHIN THESE " CHRISTIAN FACTIONS "

" COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM (by REPENTING AND BELIEVING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM) MY PEOPLE LEST, YOU TAKE PART IN THEIR SINS AND THAT YOU DO NOT RECEIVE OF THEIR PLAGUES..."
(Revelation 18:4).

WHO ARE

THE APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST ?


THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST ARE THESE:
(Matthew 10:2. Revelation 21:14)


(1) SIMON who is called PETER and (2) ANDREW his brother
(3) JAMES the son of Zebedee and (4) JOHN his brother
(5) PHILIP and (6) BARTHOLOMEW
(7) THOMAS and (8) MATTHEW the publican
(9) JAMES the son of Alphaeus and
(10)JUDE the brother of James
(11)SIMON the canaanite and (12) MATTHIAS who replaced Judas
(Matthew 10:2-4. Acts 1:13,26)


THESE TWELVE NAMES ARE THE ONLY NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB
RECORDED IN HEAVEN
" AND THE WALL HAD TWELVE FOUNDATION STONES, AND ON THEM WERE THE TWELVE NAMES OF OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB"
(REVELATION 21:14)
and acknowledged by DISCIPLES OF JESUS everywhere.


THE QUALIFICATIONS OF A TRUE APOSTLE


The QUALIFICATIONS of a TRUE APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST were spelled out by THE APOSTLE PETER, when a successor to Judas was appointed:

" Therefore of these men who have accompanied us ALL THE TIME that the Lord Jesus went in and out amongst us; BEGINNING FROM THE BAPTISM OF JOHN until that SAME DAY WHEN HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of HIS RESURRECTION"
(Acts 1:21,22 ).


THIS DIVINE TEST WAS APPLIED BY THE DISCIPLES AT EPHESUS
WHICH PROVED
THAT PAUL, BARNABAS, TIMOTHY, SILVANUS and OTHERS
WERE
FALSE APOSTLES AND LIARS
(Revelation 2:2)

THESE LIARS FAILED TO MEET THE TEST SET BY PETER

THIS SAME TEST PROVES THAT EVERY POPE AND OTHERS WHO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE APOSTLES

ARE ALSO LIARS




There are those who will vehemently defend the inerrancy of the Word of God and then completely ignore HOW it was compiled, filtered, and put together by pagans!

The Council of Nicea in 325 in Rome DECIDED for us what books would be included and what would be official church doctrine. Constantine was the ultimate approver or disprover, not a Spirit led born again believer in Jesus! Most will claim Constantine was a believer, what they don't tell you is that Constantine didn't convert until he was on his deathbed! Which means the early church majority did nothing as a pagan compiled and TOLD US what doctrine was true or false!

It is the duty of every believer in Y'hoshua Jesus to go back and learn what the truth really is before Constantine corrupted the church!

Pray for truth in all things daily and seek Yah for the truth!! Not man!!







Jesus said..
Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world comes and has nothing in me. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it." Mark 4.15, John 14.30, John 10.10, & John 8.44.

The following list cites some of the ways that Paul fulfills the role of Satan-in-the-flesh who comes immediately and takes away the Word of God that was sown in man's heart:

Paul came on the heels of our Lord when the disciples had just begun doing the works of spreading the Word that God had set before them. Paul's assaults against, and imprisonment of, the Lord's disciples then snatched the Truth away from the people who had only begun to hear Truth spoken through those imprisoned disciples.
After Paul's conversion, his distortion of the Lord's Doctrine taught by the disciples immediately following the disciples' works stole the Truth away from the people who had heard what the disciples had said but then trusted Paul's lies.
When Paul started preaching, he infuriated people so severely that they wanted to murder him. By distracting people's attention away from hearing and adhering to the Word of God, Paul was snatching the Truth away from them.
By the time the Lord's disciples had figured out that Paul was a heavy-duty bad guy, it was too late. Christianity's founder, Paul had already become firmly enmeshed in the Christian mind as being the Lord's greatest apostle. Thus, even though Peter and James wrote the letter confronting Paul's apostasy, Satan had already taken the Truth away from the Christians. Christian leaders destroyed the letter, and adamently defended Paul's apostasy. In doing so, the Christian fathers were asserting that Paul was superior to Peter, and that Paul, not Peter, was the rock upon whom the Lord built His church.
When the Bible was printed into the form of one book, Paul's writings were inserted to the right of the Gospel. All the people who studied the Gospel and received it, but then turned to Paul's dogma and trusted it as being authentically of God, had the Truth taken away from them by Satan Paul's horrendous misinterpretations and misapplications of the Gospel.
When we go to a Christian church and hear the Word of God spoken, the vast majority of times the priest or preacher will then attempt to interpret and override the Truth spoken by Jesus with Paul's blasphemous dogmanure. The people who then trust their priests and preachers to be telling God's Truth immediately experience Satan taking away their understanding of the Word of God from them.
Some of the words that the Spirit of the Son of man spoke to the Old Testament prophets have been lost, polluted, twisted, and distorted by false interpretations of their writings. Such is especially true of David's psalms. Wherever the Christian scribes and translators did not understand what was being said, they inserted words that had not been written by the prophets at all, and they did so from the position of applying Paul's dogma to the prophets' writings. Therein was Paul again the primary source of having the Truth snatched away from people.
Read Acts of the Antichrist





In his first letter to his Corinthian followers, 'Paul'dared to quote from the The Prophet Jeremiah "JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN, LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."(1 Corinthians 1:31).

The Prophet Jeremiah writes "But LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST OF THIS, that he understands and knows ME, that I am THE LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD"(Jeremiah 9:24)

'Paul'dared to call on his 'god' SATAN,to assist him in "TRAMPLING" on "THE WORD OF THE LORD"(written in Jeremiah 9:24)

"But god forbid that I should BOAST in ANYTHING, but ONLY in the CROSS"(Galations 6:14).



With this BLASPHEMOUS 'boast', the devil and false apostle 'Paul' introduced, to mankind, "THE CROSS", as "THE MARK OF THE BEAST" (Rev 19:20).


'PAUL' MISQUOTED PSALM 68:18 to MAKE WAY FOR THE MANY ANTICHRISTS.
The devil and false apostle 'Paul' MISQUOTED the words of PSALM 68:18, in his infamous letter to the Ephesians where he TOOK AWAY FROM the words of 68:18 which read "HE (GOD,THE FATHER) RECEIVED gifts FROM among men" (Verse 18).
The devil 'Paul' CHANGED THE WORDS OF PSALM 68:18 to read "he('another jesus') GAVE gifts TO men" (Ephesians 4:8) to justify his appointment of "THE TARES, THE CHILDREN OF THE EVIL ONE" (Matthew 13:25,38).


'PAUL' THE FATHER OF THE TARES
"THE EVIL ONE" 'Paul' gave assurances to his "TARES" that he was their father by writing to them "I (Paul) BECAME YOUR FATHER THROUGH the gospel which I preach" (1 Corinthians 4:15)


THE 'TARES' OF CHRISTIANITY REVEALED




'Paul' himself gave them titles:

" Apostles and prophets, fathers, pastors, evangelists and teachers...bishops, deacons,exorcists, miracle workers, speakers in unknown languages, administrators etc "
(Eph 4:11. Phil. 1:1. 1 Corinthians 4:15).

These can be found within the *TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND* CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS and bearing the following diabolical titles:

Popes, cardinals, patriarchs, moderators, monsignors, apostles, prophets, fathers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, bishops, deacons, miracle workers, speakers in unknown tongues, exorcists, administrators, priests, sisters, nuns, clergy, clergymen, 'christian brothers' etc.


Paul said, “For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?” This is the kind of man that Christianity was based on? The whole law concerning Christianity hangs on the words of a man who lied to get your loyalty? He altered the teachings of Jesus Christ as well as remitted the laws of the Prophets (Matthew 5:17-18) He said over and over that it was ok to lie to get people to believe what you were preaching/teaching! Then he couldn't get it! He was complaining of being judged as a sinner even if his lying was "meant" to produce good!" What Good comes from lying? Jesus said all liars would have their part in the Lake of Fire!" Now who's right? Jesus or Paul?


'PAUL' wrote "Let him who BOASTS, boast of THE LORD" (1 Corinthians 1:31); which is a quotation from the Prophet Jeremiah where ALMIGHTY GOD commands those who love HIM:
"but let him who boasts BOAST of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD" (Jeremiah 9:24)

'Paul' then TRAMPLED ON THE above word.
He ('Paul) dared to call on his 'god'SATAN to prevent him (Paul) from obeying the command of ALMIGHTY GOD; when he (Paul) wrote "But god forbid that I should BOAST ONLY IN THE CROSS" (Galations 6:14)

'Paul' TRAMPLED on the word written by the Prophet Jeremiah by EXALTING 'the cross' above "ALMIGHTY GOD" (Jer (9:24).
'PAUL' and his christian followers have, over the last two thousand years, EXALTED "THE ABOMINATION",'the cross' above "ALMIGHTY GOD".
Yeshua (Jesua) the Messiah declares that "WHAT IS EXALTED AMONG MEN IS AN ABOMINATION IN THE SIGHT OF GOD"(Luke 16:15).
Yeshua (Jesus) further pointed out that this EXALTATION OF 'the cross' is "THE ABOMINATION WHICH DESOLATES, STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE (IN THE PLACE OF THE HOLY FATHER) spoken by the Prophet Daniel".
"The devil 'Paul' and his angels (Matthew 13:25,39. 25:46), reject the DIVINELY APPOINTED RULE OF YESHUA THE MESSIAH by declaring
"WE DO NOT WANT THIS MAN (YESHUA) TO RULE OVER US"(Luke 19:14).

These "UNGODLY"(Psalm 1:5), self proclaimed, teachers, proclaim the LIE that "YESHUA (JESUS) IS NOT THE PROPHET, MESSIAH, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF THE ONLY TRUE GOD, THE FATHER" (Deut 18:15-22. Isaiah 9:6. Psalm 2:7. John 3:16. John 17:3).

The self confessed "ungodly" followers of the devil 'Paul' believe his lying claim to being "the son of God", when he wrote:
"god was pleased to reveal his son in me (Paul)"(Galations 1:7).

In fulfilment of the prophecy and warning of YESHUA THE MESSIAH, 'Paul' and his fellow "demons"(Matthew 13:38(b).Rev 16:14. 18:2) "showed signs and wonders"(Acts 15:12) in order to try and "deceive, if possible" the elected twelve apostles and disciples of Yeshua" (Matthew 24:24).

'PAUL' GATHERED "THE TARES" TOGETHER IN ANTIOCH
In fulfilment of the prophetic warning of YESHUA (JESUS), the devil 'Paul' and his christian fellow workers first GATHERED THEMSELVES TOGETHER in ANTIOCH before the "generation" still living at the time of Yeshua had "passed away",(Matthew 24:34).

They very quickly travelled "Around on sea and land" (Matthew 23:15) to make more "disciples of 'Paul'(Acts 9:19. 11:26) and made them "twice as much a son of hell"(Matthew 23:15).

Even as the "Gospel of the kingdom was being preached as a witness concerning YESHUA (JESUS), to all nations" (Matthew 24:14); even then, in the lifetime of "this generation" of the twelve apostles (Matthew 24:34), "the end came" (Matthew 24:34) when "THE DEVIL and FALSE APOSTLE 'PAUL' and his children "THE TARES" the popes and clergy of Christianity preached 'another jesus' and another gospel'.





For the last two thousand years Christians have "EXALTED" 'the cross' on top of their places worship; have introduced a special feast day called 'The feast of the exaltation of the cross' when christians worship and kiss 'the cross'; have worn an image of 'the cross' around their necks as a superstitious talisman to 'ward off evil'; BOAST that they "are saved by 'the cross' etc, etc.

The Christian followers receive 'THE SIGN OF THE CROSS' "ON their RIGHT HANDS and on their FOREHEADS".
This SIGN OF 'THE CROSS' is "THE MARK OF THE BEAST" (Revelation 13:16)

BABYLON THE GREAT

Having appointed the "TARES" and EXALTED 'the cross' "IN THE PLACE OF GOD,THE FATHER", Christianity, moved its headquarters to ROME, BABYLON THE GREAT (Rev 17:5) when 'Paul' "WENT AWAY " (Matthew 13:25) to "ROME" as Yeshua (Jesus) prophesied.

'Paul' "WENT AWAY" to "BABYLON(ROME)".

ANTI-SEMITISM and 'ANOTHER jesus and ANOTHER gospel
'Paul' accomplished this "ESCAPE FROM JUSTICE FOR PREACHING ANTISEMITISM"(Acts 25:8) and preaching 'Another jesus' and 'another gospel'(2 Corinthiands 11:4),with the assistance of HEROD who arranged to have 'Paul' shipped to ROME under the pretext of being "a prisoner".


Upon his arrival in ROME, "THE DRAGON"(Rev 16:13) 'Paul' was provided by Caesar,with a luxurious villa, from which he supervised, marshalled and disciplined his evil workers.

Whilst in ROME 'Paul' was also provided, by Caesar, with a Roman "soldier" (Acts 28:16) for his protection.

'Paul's' Papal successors, many taking the name of 'Paul' at their coronation as 'pope', have headed up the twenty eight thousand denominations of Christianity, founded by 'Paul' in ANTIOCH, for the last two thousand years.

Whereas 'Paul' was provided with one "soldier" for his protection, every pope, also known as "THE BEAST" (Rev 16:13),is provided with a large contingent of soldiers, known as 'The Vatican Guard'.

The papal "BEASTS" have over the last two thousand years, just like 'Paul', taken the name 'pope-papa' which is the latin word for 'father' and 'vicar of christ' which means 'instead of Christ'.

Like 'Paul' these popes, blaspheme THE NAME of YHWH and THE NAME of YESHUA, THE MESSIAH; WHO ARE SEATED ON MOUNT ZION; by taking to themselves the NAMES "Holy Father" and "vicar of Christ", at their coronation.

As a result "THE WHOLE WORLD ARE AMAZED AS THEY FOLLOW THE DRAGON 'PAUL'; THE PAPAL BEASTS OF ROME, WHO SUCCEEDED 'PAUL' AND THE MANY CHRISTIAN ANTICHRISTS WHO BEWITCH THEIR FOLLOWERS" (REVELATION 13:3))
'ANOTHER JESUS'preached by 'Paul'and his Christian ministers.
"THE TWELVE APOSTLE OF THE LAMB preached "IN ALL THE WORLD" THE "GOOD NEWS" OF "YESHUA THE MESSIAH", whose "BODY OF FLESH WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SEE CORRUPTION AND WHO IS SEATED IN GLORY, AT THE FATHER'S RIGHT HAND, IN HEAVEN " (Revelation 21:14. Luke 24:39. Acts 2:31. Matthew 26:64. Psalm 110:1).
Some twenty years after the "TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB, THE SONS OF GOD, THE FATHER" first began preaching "THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM" (Matthew 24:14), the "DEVIL 'Paul' and "HIS ANGELS, THE SONS OF SATAN "(Matthew 13:38, 25:46) preached "another (disembodied) jesus with NO flesh and blood" (2 Corinthians 11:4. Acts 22:9. 1 Corinthians 15:20).

'A DIFFERENT GOSPEL'preached by 'Paul'
Instead of "THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM PREACHED BY THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB IN ALL THE WORLD"(Matthew 24:14. 26:13), the "devil 'Paul' and his angels, by their own admission,preach "a different gospel...promting "LAWLESSNESS" (Jude 4)by saying that, according to 'Paul's' gospel "all things are lawful"(2 Corinthians 11:4. 1 Corinthians 10:23).
This ANTI-CHRIST 'Paul' and his "MANY ANTI-CHRISTS", warned of by Yeshua are the "UNGODLY PERSONS PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS" (Jude 4) and "LEADING MANY ASTRAY" (Matthew 24:4,5). for the last tWO THOUSAND YEARS




THE TRUE GOSPEL and THE FALSE 'gospel '.
(Luke 1:50. 23:40. Revelation 14:6,7)

THE TRUE ETERNAL GOSPEL
IS THE GOSPEL FOR THOSE "WHO FEAR GOD"
PREACHED BY YESHUA (JESUS) OF NAZARETH
AND BY THE TWELVE APOSTLES
OF YESHUA THE MESSIAH (JESUS CHRIST)

"...them also who shall believe in me THROUGH THEIR WORD".
(John 17:20)
"FEAR GOD AND GIVE HIM GLORY"

" FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
THAT WHOEVER
BELIEVES
THAT YESHUA (JESUS) OF NAZARETH
IS THE MESSIAH (CHRIST)
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, THE FATHER,
THAT PERSON
WILL NOT PERISH
BUT HAVE
EVERLASTING LIFE "
(Revelation 14:6. Luke 1:50. John 3:16. Matthew 16:16. John 17:3. John 20:31)

YESHUA (JESUS)THE MESSIAH AND THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB
PREACHED THIS
THE ONLY TRUE ETERNAL GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM.

(Mark 1:15. Matthew 24:14. John 17:20)

THIS IS THE ONLY ETERNAL GOSPEL
OR GOOD NEWS
FROM HEAVEN.
(Matthew 21:25. John 17:20)

WHICH GOD,THE FATHER,CALLS UPON EVERYONE WHO "FEARS GOD", TO " BELIEVE "
(Luke 1:50. Deuteronomy 18:15. John 20:31).
TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE and THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS
(John 20:31. 1 John 5:1)

_____________
_____________


THE FALSE 'gospel'

WARNED AGAINST BY YESHUA (JESUS) THE TRUE MESSIAH (CHRIST), AND HIS TWELVE APOSTLES


" For false Christs, and false prophets,will arise and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect"
(Matthew 24:24)
" For certain men have crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, UNGODLY MEN, turning the grace of our God into liscentiousness, even denying the only Lord God (The Father), and our Lord Jesus Christ(The Only Begotten son of the Father)."
(Jude 1:4)

PREACHED BY THE DEVIL AND FALSE APOSTLE 'PAUL' AND HIS ANGELS

(Matthew 13:25-50)
TO THOSE WHO HAVE "NO FEAR OF GOD" (Romans 3:18).
This FALSE 'gospel' is summed up in the LIES preached by the devil'Paul' and his "UNGODLY" Christian ministers and summarised in Chapter 15 verses 1-8 in 'Paul's' first infamous letter to the "UNGODLY" (Jude 4) Corinthians.



THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF THE "LIAR" 'Paul'

FIRST LIE: PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD


'Paul' wrote the LIE to those "Who HAVE NO FEAR OF GOD" (Romans 3:18); "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for OUR sins, the sins of the UNGODLY" (1 Cor 15:3. Romans 5:6).


The Word of God as recorded in Psalm 1 and Jude 4 emphasise that:
"THE UNGODLY ARE LIKE THE CHAFF WHICH THE WIND DRIVES AWAY"
"THE UNGODLY WILL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGEMENT "
"UNGODLY MEN (Who HAVE NO FEAR OF GOD), SECRETLY CREPT IN PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LICENTIOUSNESS"
(Psalm 1:4,5 Jude 4)

SECOND LIE: RESURRECTION APPEARANCES

'Paul' wrote the LIE "that Christ (first)appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5).



The Word of God as recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John emphasise that Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah "FIRST" appeared to "THE WOMEN" (Matthew 28:9. Mark 16:9. Luke 24:10. John 20:14,15)
It is not therefore surprising that 'Paul' and his Christian ministers despise and hate women and treat them as second class citizens


THIRD LIE:

'Paul' wrote the LIE "After that he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time" ( 1 Cor. 15:6)


The apostle Peter testifies that "the number of names ALTOGETHER were about a hundred and twenty disciples" (Acts 1:15)

FOURTH LIE: YESHUA , THE MESSIAH DID NOT APPEAR TO 'Paul'

'Paul' wrote the LIE "and last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared to me also" (1 Cor. 15:8)


Luke together with 'Paul's' own testimony confirms that 'Paul' DID NOT SEE THE RISEN YESHUA (JESUS) but "SAW A DISEMBODIED LIGHT" (Acts 9:3. 22:9)


THIS FALSE 'gospel' THE EVIL FRUIT OF THE DEVIL 'PAUL' AND HIS ANGELS COMES FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT OF HELL
(Matthew 13:25,38,39. Revelation 9:2)





A female who was raised in Christianity, has been taught that:

We could never be good enough to serve God. And if we do it should be privately at home barefoot and pregnant and scrubbing floors!
What we think and feel doesn't matter! We're just to be slaves to men and that's that!.
We ought not to express emotions of anger, because a self-assertive female was a sinner.
I was only here on earth to serve the wants and needs of others, especially those of my husband, children, parents, and inlaws.
Is that what Jesus taught? No!!

God does not condone preferential treatment granted to or by any humans including His prophets. Equal rights, equal access, equal freedoms, protections, and opportunities under the law are commanded by God to all people everywhere in the world regardless of race, gender, age, status, OR level of Spirituality.

Read what Jesus really taught about discrimination, this prophet hits it right on the head!








666 in Hebrew Means....



"Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."
"Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him".
(Acts 10:34, 35)








they say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan

Paul the First Heretic

the excommunication of Paul

Paul, apostle or heretic?

James, Paul, and the Dead Sea Scrolls




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Links From Others:

Read Acts of the Antichrist

Paul's Epistle to the Romans Exposed

Ephesians

Philippians

Colossians

although the above links were not written by me, she hits it right on the head! Read how a recovering alcoholic finds Jesus and is shown the truth about Paul! Humorous at times, it's packed with information! I dont' agree with everything these sites say, but they hit Paul on the head and reveal who and what he really was.




Ok, so now you're wondering if any of this is really true. When Yah kept leading me to this there were many times I had my doubts. So I know what you're going through and thinking. Yah kept bringing several of the points made on this website to my mind. He led me to people and places and books for a long time before I finally accepted it as the self evident truth that it is. Some of the facts He kept bringing to my mind during times of doubt and questioning and prayer were these:
1. There are three different accounts of Paul's testimony of the Damascus Road Revelation that we know of in the Scriptures (probably many more that we don't even know of), the very words out of Paul's mouth. All 3 were different accounts of the same event. These weren't translation errors, they were different stories of the same event as told by PAUL. Why the differences? Because Liars can't keep up with the truth. The Apostles didn't believe Paul's story and we shouldn't either.

2. After this "divine revelation" Paul disappeared for 2 years into the wilderness to receive more and more revelations. There were never any accounts listed anywhere from any of the soldiers or witnesses who were there to confirm that this event really happened. He never sought the disciples or to learn from them Yah's ways and teachings directly from the men who knew Yah the most. He claimed by divine revelation the very falsehood that almost got him excommunicated from the church completely! He argued with the apostles that circumcision was no longer necessary and in Jesus would profit them nothing when circumcision was a command, a sign of the covenant Yah made with Israel! To escape excommunication, Paul relented and stopped preaching his falsehood on circumcision. In other words, Paul's revelation wasn't so divine when it was held up and scrutinized in God's Word. Paul was exposed for the fraud and liar he was! And instead of dealing with him once and for all the disciples "swept him under the rug."

I don't think any of the apostles realized at the time how dangerous this Paul was going to be to the church today. When they visited cities and towns Paul had preached in, they spent their time undoing the damage Paul did and setting the people straight on doctrine. In fact it got so bad the entire area of Asia completely rejected Paul! They didn't even want to see him! When he was thrown in prison in Rome the people wouldn't even visit him!

Yet, almost half of the New Testament today are books Paul wrote. Hindsight..would have been nice. But Yah allowed it to serve His own purposes. Just as He allowed the serpent to bequile Eve in the garden of Eden.

How many preachers today have "divine revelations" and have introduced false, heretical, and blasphemous teachings and doctrines into the churches?

Now you know where it started.

3. Some will say that through translations Paul's words were twisted and he was made to look bad by the transcribers themselves. For this, I refer you to point #1 and #2.






http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/pa...a_deceiver.htm
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 03:52 AM
let me make your life easier about the lost cities too here we go


THE LOST CITY OF UBAR

THE PEOPLE OF 'AD AND UBAR, THE ATLANTIS OF THE SANDS



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the beginning of 1990, there appeared press-releases in the well-known newspapers of the world declaring “Fabled Lost Arabian city found”, “Arabian city of Legend found”, “The Atlantis of the Sands, Ubar”. What rendered this archaeological find more intriguing was the fact that this city was also referred to in the Qur’an. Many people who, since then, thought that ‘Ad recounted in the Qur’an were a legend or that their location could never be found, could not conceal their astonishment at this discovery. The discovery of this city, which was only mentioned in oral stories of Bedouins, awoke great interest and curiosity.

Well, what was it that proved this city to be the city of the people of ‘Ad mentioned in the Qur’an?

Right from the moment remains started to be unearthed, it was understood that this ruined city belonged to ‘Ad and of Iram’s pillars mentioned in the Qur’an, because among the structures unearthed were the towers particularly referred to in the Qur’an. A member of the research team leading the excavation, Dr. Zarins, said that since the towers were alleged to be the distinctive feature of Ubar, and since Iram was mentioned as having towers or pillars, this then was the strongest proof so far that the site they had unearthed was Iram, the city of ‘Ad described in the Qur’an. The Qur’an mentions Iram as follows:

Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the 'Ad (people),- Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars, The like of which were not produced in (all) the land? (The Holy Qur'an: Surat al-Fajr, 6-8)

1. Ubar, could only be seen from space before excavations were made.

2. A city 12 metres below the sands was uncovered by excavations.




For Additional Information Use The Following Links:



The People of 'Ad and Ubar

Lost City of Arabia (PBS)

The Search For Ubar (NASA)

Radar Image of Ubar

Nova Online Broadcast Transcript



And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind,exceedingly violent;
He made it rage against them seven nights and eight days in succession: so that thou couldst see the (whole) people lying prostrate in its (path), as they had been roots of hollow palm-trees tumbled down! Then seest thou any of them left surviving? (Surat al-Haaqqa: 6-8)

Another people who were destroyed and who are mentioned in various Surah of the Qur’an is ‘Ad, who are mentioned after the people of Nuh. Being sent to ‘Ad, Hud summoned his people, just like all the other prophets had done, to believe in Allah without ascribing partners to Him and to obey him, the prophet of that time. The people reacted to Hud with animosity. They accused him of imprudence, untruthfulness, and attempting to change the system their ancestors had established.

In Surah Hud, all that passed between Hud and his people is told in detail;

To the Ad People (We sent) Hud, one of their own brethren. He said: “O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him. (Your other gods) ye do nothing but invent!
O my people! I ask of you no reward for this (Message). My reward is from none but Him who created me: Will ye not then understand?
And O my people! Ask forgiveness of your Lord, and turn to Him (in repentance): He will send you the skies pouring abundant rain, and add strength to your strength: so turn ye not back in sin!”
They said: “O Hud! No Clear (Sign) that hast thou brought us, and we are not the ones to desert our gods on thy word! Nor shall we believe in thee!
We say nothing but that (perhaps) some of our gods may have seized thee with imbecility.”
He said: “I call Allah to witness, and do ye bear witness, that I am free from the sin of ascribing, to Him, Other gods as partners! so scheme (your worst) against me, all of you, and give me no respite. I put my trust in Allah, My Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He hath grasp of its fore-lock. Verily, it is my Lord that is on a straight Path.
If ye turn away,- I (at least) have conveyed the Message with which I was sent to you. My Lord will make another people to succeed you, and you will not harm Him in the least. For my Lord hath care and watch over all things.”
So when Our decree issued, We saved Hud and those who believed with him, by (special) Grace from Ourselves: We saved them from a severe penalty.
Such were the Ad People: they rejected the Signs of their Lord and Cherisher; disobeyed His messengers; And followed the command of every powerful, obstinate transgressor.
And they were pursued by a Curse in this life - and on the Day of Judgment. Ah! Behold! for the 'Ad rejected their Lord and Cherisher! Ah! Behold! removed (from sight) were 'Ad the people of Hud! (Surah Hud: 50-60)

Another Surah mentioning ‘Ad is Surat ash-Shuara. In this Surah, some characteristics of ‘Ad are emphasised. According to this, ‘Ad were a people who “build a landmark on every high place” , and its members “get for themselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)”. Besides, they did mischief and behaved brutally. When Hud warned his people, they commented that his words were “a customary device of the ancients”. They were very confident that nothing would happen to them;

The 'Ad (people) rejected the messengers.
Behold, their brother Hud said to them: “Will ye not fear (Allah)?
I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust:
So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.
Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves? And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)? And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?
Now fear Allah, and obey me.
Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know.
Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,-
And Gardens and Springs.
Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day.”
They said: “It is the same to us whether thou admonish us or be not among (our) admonishers!
This is no other than a customary device of the ancients, And we are not the ones to receive Pains and Penalties!”
So they rejected him, and We destroyed them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.
And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.
(Surat ash-Shuara: 123-140)

The people who showed animosity to Hud and rebelled against Allah, were indeed destroyed. A horrible sandstorm annihilated ‘Ad as if they had “never existed”.




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The Archaeological Findings of the City of Iram
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At the beginning of 1990, there appeared press-releases in the well-known newspapers of the world declaring “Fabled Lost Arabian city found”, “Arabian city of Legend found”, “The Atlantis of the Sands, Ubar”. What rendered this archaeological find more intriguing was the fact that this city was also referred to in the Qur’an. Many people who, since then, thought that ‘Ad recounted in the Qur’an were a legend or that their location could never be found, could not conceal their astonishment at this discovery. The discovery of this city, which was only mentioned in oral stories of Bedouins, awoke great interest and curiosity.

It was Nicholas Clapp, an amateur archaeologist, who found this legendary city mentioned in the Qur’an. (7) Being an Arabophile and a winning documentary film maker, Clapp had come across a very interesting book during his research on Arabian history. This book was Arabia Felix written by the English researcher Bertram Thomas in 1932. Arabia Felix was the Roman designation for the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula which today includes Yemen and much of Oman. The Greeks called this area “Eudaimon Arabia” and medieval Arab scholars called it “Al-Yaman as-Saida”. (8)


All of these names mean “Fortunate Arabia”, because the people living in that region in old times were known to be the most fortunate people of their time. Well, what was the reason for such a designation?

Their good fortune was in part due to their strategic location - serving as middlemen in the spice trade between India and places north of the Arabian peninsula. Besides, the people living in this region produced and distributed “frankincense”, an aromatic resin from rare trees. Being highly favoured by the ancient communities, this plant was used as a fumigant in various religious rites. In those times, the plant was at least as valuable as gold.


The English researcher Thomas, described these “lucky” tribes at length and claimed that he found the traces of an ancient city founded by one of these tribes.(9) This was the city known as “Ubar” by the bedouins. In one of the trips he made to the region, the bedouins living in the desert had shown him well-worn tracks and stated that these tracks led toward the ancient city of Ubar. Thomas, who showed great interest in the subject, died before being able to complete his research.



Excavations made in Ubar


Clapp, who examined what the English researcher Thomas wrote, was convinced of the existence of the lost city described in the book. Without losing much time, he started his research.

Clapp tried two ways to prove the existence of Ubar. First, he found the tracks which the Bedoins said existed. He applied to NASA to provide the satellite images of the area. After a long struggle, he succeeded in persuading the authorities to take the pictures of the region.(10)

Clapp went on to study the ancient manuscripts and maps in the Huntington library in California. His aim was to find a map of the region. After a short research, he found one. What he found was a map drawn by the Greek-Egyptian geographer Ptolemy in 200. A.D. In the map was shown the location of an old city found in the region and the ways that led to this city.


Meanwhile, he received the news that the pictures had been taken by NASA. In the pictures, some caravan trails became visible which were difficult to identify with the naked eye, but could only be seen as a whole from the sky. Comparing these pictures with the old map he had to hand, Clapp finally reached the conclusion he was looking for: the trails in the old map corresponded with the trails in the pictures taken from the satellite. The final destination of these trails was a broad site understood to have once been a city.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The location of the city of ‘Ad was discovered by photographs taken from the Space Shuttle. On the photograph, the place where caravan trails intersect is marked, and it points towards Ubar.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Ubar, could only be seen from space before excavations were made.
2. A city 12 metres below the sands was uncovered by excavations.




Finally, the location of the legendary city which had been subject of the stories told orally by the bedouins was discovered. After a short while, excavations began and remains of an old city started to be uncovered under the sands. Thus, this lost city was described as “the Atlantis of the Sands, Ubar”.

Well, what was it that proved this city to be the city of the people of ‘Ad mentioned in the Qur’an?

Right from the moment remains started to be unearthed, it was understood that this ruined city belonged to ‘Ad and of Iram’s pillars mentioned in the Qur’an, because among the structures unearthed were the towers particularly referred to in the Qur’an. A member of the research team leading the excavation, Dr. Zarins, said that since the towers were alleged to be the distinctive feature of Ubar, and since Iram was mentioned as having towers or pillars, this then was the strongest proof so far that the site they had unearthed was Iram, the city of ‘Ad described in the Qur’an. The Qur’an mentions Iram as follows;

Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the 'Ad (people),-
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
The like of which were not produced in (all) the land? (Surat al-Fajr: 6-8)




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The People of ‘Ad
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So far, we have seen that Ubar could possibly be the city of Iram mentioned in the Qur’an. According to the Qur’an, the inhabitants of the city did not listen to the prophet Hud, who had brought a message to them and who warned them, and so they perished.

The identity of ‘Ad who found the city of Iram has also created much debate. In historical records, there is no mention of a people having such a developed culture or of the civilisation they established. It might be thought quite strange that the name of such a people is not found in historical records.

On the other hand, it shouldn’t be so surprising not to come across the presence of these people in the records and archives of old civilisations. The reason for that is that these people lived in South Arabia, which was a region distant from other people living in the Mesopotamia region and the Middle East, and which only had a restricted relationship with them. It was a common situation for a state, which is scarcely known, not to be recorded in the historical records. On the other hand, it is possible to hear stories among people in the Middle East about ‘Ad.

The most important reason why ‘Ad have not been mentioned in the written records is that written communication was not common in the region at that time. Therefore, it is possible to think that ‘Ad founded a civilisation but this civilisation had not been mentioned in the historical records of those other civilisations that kept documentation. If this culture had existed a little longer, maybe much more would be known about these people in our day.

There is no written record of ‘Ad, but it is possible to find important information about their “descendants” and to have an idea about ‘Ad in the light of this information.




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Hadramites, the descendants of ‘Ad
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The first place to be looked at while searching for the traces of a probable civilisation established by ‘Ad or their descendants, is South Yemen, where “The Atlantis of the Sands, Ubar” is found and which is referred to as “Fortunate Arabia”. In South Yemen, four peoples have existed before our time who are named “Fortunate Arabs” by the Greeks. These are the Hadramites, Sabaeans, Minaeans and Qatabaeans. These four peoples reigned for a while together in territories close to each other.

Many contemporary scientists say that ‘Ad entered into a period of transformation and then re-appeared on the stage of history. Dr. Mikail H. Rahman, a researcher at the University of Ohio, believes that ‘Ad are the ancestors of the Hadramites, one of the four peoples who lived in South Yemen. Appearing around 500 B.C., The Hadramites are the least known among the people called “Fortunate Arabs”. These people reigned over the region of South Yemen for a very long time and disappeared totally in 240 A.D. at the end of a long period of decline.

The name of Hadrami hints that those may be the descendants of ‘Ad. The Greek writer Pliny, living at the 3rd Century B.C. referred to this tribe as “Adramitai” - meaning the Hadrami.(11) The termination of the Greek name is a noun-suffix, the noun being “Adram” which immediately suggests that it is a possible corruption of “Ad-i Iram” mentioned in the Qur’an.

The Greek geographer Ptolemy (150-100 A.D.) shows the south of the Arabian Peninsula as the place where the people called “Adramitai” lived. This region has been known by the name of “Hadhramaut” until recently. The capital city of the Hadrami State, Shabwah, was situated at the west of the Hadhramaut Valley. According to many old legends, the tomb of the prophet Hud, who was sent as a messenger to ‘Ad, is in Hadhramaut .

Another factor which tends to confirm the thought that the Hadramites are a continuation of ‘Ad, is their wealth. The Greeks defined the Hadramites as the “richest race in the world…”. Historical records say that the Hadramites had gone very far in the agriculture of “frankincense”, one of the most valuable plants of the time. They had found new areas of usage for the plant and widened its usage. The agricultural production of the Hadramites was much higher than production of this plant in our day.

What has been found in the excavations made in Shabwah, which is known to have been the capital city of the Hadramites, is very interesting. In these excavations which started in 1975, it was extremely difficult for archaeologists to reach the remains of the city due to the deep sand dunes. The finds obtained by the end of the excavations were astonishing; because the uncovered ancient city was one of the most overwhelmingly interesting found until then. The walled town that was revealed was of a larger extent than of any other ancient Yemeni site and its palace was remarked to be a truly magnificent building

Doubtless, it was very logical to suppose that the Hadramites had inherited this architectural superiority from their forerunners, ‘Ad. Hud said to the people of ‘Ad while warning them;

Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves? And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)? (Surat ash-Shuara: 128-129)

Another interesting characteristic of the buildings found at Shabwah was the elaborate columns. The columns that were at Shabwah seemed to be quite unique in being round and arranged in a circular portico, whereas all other sites in Yemen so far had been found to have square monolithic columns. The people of Shabwah must have inherited the architectural style of their ancestors, ‘Ad. Photius, a Greek Byzantine Patriarch of Constantinople in the 9th. Century A.D., made vast research on the Southern Arabs and their commercial activities because he had access to the old Greek manuscripts no longer extant in our day, and particularly the book of Agatharachides (132 B.C.), Concerning the Erythraean (Red) Sea. Photius said in one of his articles; “It is said that they (South Arabians) have built many columns covered in gold or made of silver. Spaces between these columns are remarkable to behold” (12)

Although the above statement of Photius does not directly refer to the Hadramites, it does give an idea of the affluence and building prowess of the people living in the region. Greek classical writers Pliny and Strabo describe these cities as “adorned with beautiful temples and palaces”.

When we think that the owners of these cities were the descendants of ‘Ad, it is clearly understood why the Qur’an defines the home of ‘Ad as “the city of Iram, with lofty pillars” (Surat al-Fajr: 7).




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The Springs and the Gardens of ‘Ad
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Today, the landscape that someone, who travels to Southern Arabia, would most frequently come across is the vast desert. Most of the places, with the exception of the cities and regions that have been later afforested, are covered with sand. These deserts have been there for hundreds and maybe thousands of years.

But in the Qur’an, an interesting information is given in one of the verses recounting ‘Ad. While warning his people, Prophet Hud draws their attention to the springs and gardens with which Allah had endowed them;

Now fear Allah, and obey me. Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know. Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,- And Gardens and Springs. Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day. (Surat ash-Shuara: 131-135)

But as we have noted before, Ubar, which has been identified with the city of Iram, and any other place which is likely to have been the residence of ‘Ad, is totally covered with desert today. So, why did Hud use such an expression while warning his people?

The answer is hidden in the climatic changes of history. Historical records reveal that these areas which have turned into desert now, had once been very productive and green lands. A great part of the region was covered with green areas and springs as told in the Qur’an, less than a few thousand years ago, and the people of the region made use of these endowments. The forests softened the harsh climate of the region and made it more habitable. Deserts existed, but did not cover such a vast area as today.

In Southern Arabia, important clues have been acquired in the regions where ‘Ad lived, which could cast a light upon this subject. These show that the inhabitants of that region used a highly developed irrigation system. This irrigation most probably served a single purpose: agriculture. In those regions, which are not appropriate for life today, people once cultivated the land.

Satellite imaging had also revealed an extensive system of ancient canals and dams used in irrigation around Ramlat as Sab’atayan which is estimated to have been able to support 200.000 people in the associated cities.(13) As Doe, one of the researchers conducting the research, said; “So fertile was the area around Ma’rib, that one might conceive that the whole region between Ma’rib and Hadhramaut was once under cultivation.” (14)

The Greek classical writer Pliny had described this region as being very fertile, and mist-covered with forested mountains, rivers and unbroken tracts of forests. In the inscriptions found in some ancient temples close to Shabwah, the capital city of the Hadramites, it was written that animals were hunted in this region and that some were sacrificed. All these reveal that this region was once covered with fertile lands as well as desert.

The speed with which the desert can encroach can be seen in some recent research done by the Smithsonian Institute in Pakistan where an area known to be fertile in the middle ages has turned into sandy desert, with dunes 6 meters high, the desert being found to expand on average 6 inches a day. At this speed, the sands can swallow even the highest buildings, and cover them as if they had never existed. Thus excavations at Timna in Yemen in the 1950’s have been almost completely covered up again. The Egyptian pyramids were also entirely under sands once and were only brought to light after very long-lasting excavations. Briefly, it is very clear that regions known to be desert today could have had different appearances in the past.




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How were ‘Ad ruined?
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In the Qur’an, ‘Ad are said to have perished through a “furious wind”. In the verses, it is mentioned that this furious wind lasted for seven nights and eight days and destroyed ‘Ad totally.

The 'Ad (people) (too) rejected (Truth): then how terrible was My Penalty and My Warning? For We sent against them a furious wind, on a Day of violent Disaster, Plucking out men as if they were roots of palm-trees torn up (from the ground). (Surat al-Qamar: 18-20)

And the 'Ad, they were destroyed by a furious Wind, exceedingly violent. He made it rage against them seven nights and eight days in succession: so that thou couldst see the (whole) people lying prostrate in its (path), as they had been roots of hollow palm-trees tumbled down! (Surat al-Haaqqa: 6-7)

Though warned previously, the people had paid no attention to the warnings whatsoever and continuously refused their messengers. They were in such delusion that they could not even understand what was happening when they saw the destruction approaching them and continued with their denial.

Then, when they saw the (Penalty in the shape of) a cloud traversing the sky, coming to meet their valleys, they said, “This cloud will give us rain!”. Nay, it is the (Calamity) ye were asking to be hastened!- A wind wherein is a Grievous Penalty! (Surat al-Ahqaf : 24)

In the verse, it is stated that the people saw the cloud that would bring them calamity, but could not understand what it was and thought that it was a rain cloud. This is an important indication as to how the calamity was as it drew near to the people, because a cyclone proceeding along whipping up the desert sand also seems like a rain cloud from a distance. It is possible that ‘Ad were deceived by this appearance and did not notice the calamity. Doe gives a description of these sand storms (which seems to be from personal experience); “The first sign (of a dust or sandstorm) is an approaching wall of dust-laden air which may be several thousand feet in height lifted by the strong rising currents and stirred by a fairly strong wind.” (15)

Thought to be the remains of ‘Ad, “the Atlantis of the Sands, Ubar” has been recovered from under a layer of sand metres thick. It seems that the furious wind lasting for “seven nights and eight days” by the Qur’an’s description, accumulated tons of sand on top of the city and buried people under the earth alive. Excavations made in Ubar point to the same possibility. The French magazine, Ça M’Interesse states the same as follows “Ubar was buried under a sand of 12 meters thickness as a result of a storm”(16)

The most important evidence showing that ‘Ad were buried by a sand storm, is the word “ahqaf” used in the Qur’an to signify the location of ‘Ad. The description used in the 21st verse of Surat al-Ahqaf is as follows;

Mention (Hud) one of 'Ad's (own) brethren: Behold, he warned his people about the winding Sand-tracts: but there have been warners before him and after him: “Worship ye none other than Allah: Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Mighty Day.”

Ahqaf means “sand dunes” in Arabic and it is the plural form of the word “hiqf” which means a “sand dune”. This shows that ‘Ad lived in a region full of “sand dunes”, which provided the most logical ground possible for the fact that they were buried by a sand storm. According to one interpretation, ahqaf lost its meaning of “sand hills” and became the name of the region in south Yemen where ‘Ad lived. This does not change the fact that the root of this word is sand dunes, but just shows that this word has since become peculiar to this area because of the abundant sand dunes in the region.



The region where ‘Ad lived was full of sand dunes.




As a consequence, it can be said that historical and archaeological finds indicate beyond reasonable that ‘Ad and the city of Iram must have existed and were destroyed as described in the Qur’an. By later researches, the remains of these people have been recovered from the sands.

What one should do in looking at those remains buried in the sands, is to take warning just as the Qur’an stresses. The Qur’an states that ‘Ad went astray of the right path because of their arrogance and said “Who is superior to us in strength?”. In the rest of the verse, it is said “What! did they not see that Allah, Who created them, was superior to them in strength?” (Surah Fussilat: 15)

What a person has to do is bear this unchangeable fact in mind all the time and understand that the greatest and the most honoured is always Allah and that one can only prosper by adoring Him.
http://observe.ivv.nasa.gov/nasa/exh...ar/ubar_0.html
http://www.islamicity.com/Science/Ubar/

guess your argument is ailing right about now?

BTW-- why lay on the table such huge philosophical discussions that will need some biblical backing and research if you are busy with exams?
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-06-2008, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
It's not entirely accurate, and not meant to be insulting, but they do have some similarities including, from my perspective, the fact that they were both false prophets.
I understand your perspective but find it to be kinda dismissive and narrow.
As if what they brought are even remotely comparable. As if their life story was comparable. As if they both received such wide acceptance from jews and christians. The list goes on but all you can say is "false prophets" which is very much sticking your fingers in your ears.

Qingu,

Muhammad is agreed upon by many historians to be the most influential person in history. More than Jesus, more than the great scientists or philosophers, anything. Smith wasnt mentioned at all by anyone ever.

Smith's followers and life story and hardships is nothing compared to the Prophet's. You seem content to equate a scrape with a gash and call it even.

Please reconsider your theory.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 05:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Hmmm.... that is a good question..
Just as an addendum to the above:

the first 2 chapters of Galatians Paul claims to have received revelation from God (1:16) or Jesus (1:12) and he claims to be an apostle (read prophet) to the Gentiles while Peter was the apostle to the Jews (2:7-9).


:sunny:
cheers
Reply

- Qatada -
12-06-2008, 08:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Formed? I believe the universe is eternal. It never formed; it's always existed.
okay, so the planets were already present in their locations since eternity? that is what i mean when i mean 'formed'.


Why would you assume a chaotic universe?
Like the example of some bricks blowing up and causing a building. You've probably already heard this, and i don't really care if you say that 'the same forces werent present then'. Because either way, its not convincing.


Why would the fact that scientists are (currently) unable to simulate the conditions that produced life mean that life never arose on its own?
Tell me this, why is it that people should believe in abiogenesis although it hasn't been proved yet? Yet to believe in God without seeing Him has to be proven before believed?


As usual with religious people, your analysis is a dishonest caricature of how scientists actually think chemical evolution happened.
I can say alot of atheists are dishonest myself, generally from my experiences. But i won't.


What utter nonsense. Nobody is saying that amino acides all the sudden arranged itself into useful protein molecules—amino acids are assembled into proteins based on DNA codes. Your author is calculating the odds of something that nobody is saying would happen.

Why on earth do you think this is at all relevant to abiogenesis?
I understand the concept, instead of evading the whole point - lets just jump to the main point - is it easily possible for these amino acids to actually come into existence themselves?


National Geographic, another well-known scientific magazine, wrote as follows:

Many scientists now suspect that the early atmosphere was different from what Miller first supposed. They think it consisted of carbon dioxide and nitrogen rather than hydrogen, methane, and ammonia. That's bad news for chemists. When they try sparking carbon dioxide and nitrogen, they get a paltry (hardly any) amount of organic molecules.

"The Rise of Life on Earth," National Geographic, March 1998
Maybe scientists should actually prove it first, and then try to convince us.


Again, why on earth do you think this is relevant to abiogenesis? Amino acids don't arrange themselves.

Qatada, do you know how proteins are formed? I am not trying to be a jerk here; I will be glad to explain it to you (probably in another thread), and once you understand this mechanism of biology, then we can talk about how the DNA that encodes the protein might have arisen, how lipid membranes that enclose modern cells might have formed, etc—and you can make up your mind about the probability of this happening.
I'm studying the topic in genetics myself, so i'll learn it some time insha Allah. One thing i dislike about the points made are that it 'might' have happened one way or another, but it would be way more relevant to know what truly happened.


The Miller-Urey experiments had nothing to do with proteins forming. They had to do with the formation of simpler hydrocarbons, including amino acids (which make up proteins).
i know that :) thanks anyways.



"All of us?" Almost all biologists—whose job it is to study life—believe in chemical evolution or abiogenesis.
That was Miller's teacher talking, no disrespect, ayt? :p


And besides, since you (or your source) apparently don't even know how proteins form, you're not in a position to comment on the scholarship.

Again, I don't say this to be dismissive. The mechanism of protein formation is complicated and it's not something that average joes know about.

Exactly, and that's why i dont believe it happened merely by chance.


But for you to comment like this would be like me commenting on the Quran without having read the Quran.
But you do sometimes do that. Like the example of the Qur'an mentioning that the disbelievers called him a 'madman.' You never knew the context of it, but commented anyway.



You already know what I think, I'm an atheist (I think Muhammad, like every other prophet in history, was likely a power-hungry and/or self-deluded fraud, and his followers were gullible just like every other prophet's followers). But you don't care what I think.
Maybe i would care if you told me why you thought Prophet Muhammad was power hungry?


Joseph Smith's followers faced the same hardships as Muhammad's—they had to move away from their homes into the wilderness and many of them were killed. Why did they do it, Qatada? I think the answer is the same as for Muhammad's followers.

See Joseph Smith's followers. See Jesus' followers (who, unlike Muslims, thought he was the son of God)—many of them got killed or crucified for their beliefs. Followers of Hindu sects starve and torture themselves for years in devout asceticism. Modern cult members cut off all ties with their families and give all their money to "prophets." There is absolutely nothing unique about Muhammad's followers making sacrifices to follow him—this happens in every religious tradition, from Zoroaster to modern doomsday cults. So answer your own question for all of these other religions.
Some good points to answer my question, to an extent.

But again, did Joseph Smith's followers be the leaders for humanity and benefit mankind on the same level as the companions of Prophet Muhammad? If you know the depth of Islam and how it took the most backward of nations into the forefront of all fields of advances for more than a millenium - and still benefits its followers (who apply his teachings to their lives) today, wouldn't this be a sign of his Prophethood?

The most read book in the world since its time is the Qur'an, a book which supercedes all other books in its eloquence, rhetoric and language skills. Yet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was illiterate was able to come up with this? And no-one, not even the most literatelly advanced people since over 1400years were able to supercede it?


The man who lived as an example all his life, for all people.
Ranging from a husband who fixed his own shoes in the house, to the leader of an entire kingdom.

Him being one who was an example for a; shepherd, father, husband, caller to the truth, social helper for the needy [based on the hilf al fudhul treaty to support the ones who had been wronged in Makkah], friend, businessman, head of state, commander in an army against injustice, servant of God, uniter and social reformer for humanity of all colours ("no white is better than black, no black is better than any white except based on your obedience to God." - his farewell sermon in Makkah at Hajj.)


Now tell me, what was Joseph smith like - who was he a role model for, and maybe you can share some of his teachings which benefited humanity on the same scale as Prophet Muhammad?




Actually China was pretty consistently more advanced than the Islamic Empire at the time....
At which time? Try reading up on the Tang dynasty, and how internal conflict led it to losing any force against Islam.


This is interesting too;

Islam in China;
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...amic%20history



But I thought you said they sacrificed so much in this world. Getting cushy governorships of quasi-imperial states sounds pretty nice to me.
Yeh, and guess what? They only survived on 2 dirhams a day i.e. Salman al-Farsi became governor of Persia and had 2 dirhams for his food during 'Umars reign. Umar himself was Caliph over the whole of the Arabian Peninsula, Syria, and Persia. The latter two being fertile lands and lands of former superpowers. He himself lived in a mudhouse in Medinah - where he governed the whole Muslim world from with justice - till he died.



If Heaven's Gate's leader was false in his Prophecies about aliens coming to earth then why did his followers believe his claims and actually commit a mass suicide, thus achieving it?
I believe that this can be done by many (i've even read the psychological causes behind why they did this), but again - how did they benefit humanity through this act of theirs?

By the companions of Prophet Muhammad - they accepted the message because it made perfect sense, it came from the right man who they knew never lied in his life, and they benefitted through it and they benefitted others too. As can be seen through history.




I've explained what I think about Muhammad's true intentions. I'd like to hear what you think all these other prophets were up to. We can start with Joseph Smith. Why do you think Joseph Smith was a fraud?
You havn't explained at all, and since you believe you're on the truth - i want a satisfactory answer as to what Prophet Muhammad was after when he claimed to be the Messenger of God. Why did he go through this when he could get it all for free anyway? Instead of him and his companions being tortured for over 10 long hard years?




I'll quote you the event;

Long before there was any prospect of success for Islam and at the outset of a long and painful era of torture, suffering, and persecution of Muhammad

and his followers, he received an interesting offer:

An envoy of the pagan leaders, Otba (Utbah ibn Rabi'a), came to him saying, “...If you want money, we will collect enough money for you so that you will be the richest one of us. If you want leadership, we will take you as our leader and never decide on any matter without your approval. If you want a kingdom, we will crown you king over us...” Only one concession was required from Muhammad

in return for that, to give up calling people to Islam and worshipping God alone without any partner. Wouldn’t this offer be tempting to one pursuing worldly benefit? Was Muhammad

hesitant when the offer was made? Did he turn it down as a bargaining strategy leaving the door open for a better offer?


The following was his answer:

I am not after your money, and I do not seek a position or a crown.

God has made me His messenger and revealed to me a book and instructed me to give you a message of good tidings and a warning. I have conveyed God's message to you as best as I could and I have given you good counsel. If you accept it from me, it will be good for you in this life and in the life to come. If you turn it down, I will continue to preach it until God settles the issue between us.
And in another narration, he recited the following verses of Qur'an to him;

Surah Fussilat [41]:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0pcsFeO-zpk [I really reccomend you to listen to and watch this, its only 5mins with english subs and the real Qur'an!] recited by sa'd al ghamdi


A revelation from (God), the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful; a Book whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Quran in Arabic, for people who know, giving good news and warning, yet most of them turn away, so they do not listen... (Quran, 41:2-4)


Utbah left quietly and went to his people, who realised as they saw him approaching tha a chance had come over him. They looked up at him curiously, listening to his words: "I have heard something the like of which I have never heard in my life. It is neither poetry nor sorcery. Take up the suggestion I am making to you, and lay the blame for the outcome at my door. Leave this man alone. What I have heard from him will certainly bring about great events. Should the rest of the Arabs kill him, you would have been spared the trouble. If he wins, whatever gory he achieves will be yours." They retorted: "He has certainly bewitched you." He said: "I have stated my opinion, and you can do as you wish."

[Utbah was known among them as a man of objective views, balanced temperament and moderate approach. But they still rejected his sincere advice to them, which did infact take effect later on in the near future.]
Ibn hisham, al Sirah an-Nabawiyyah Dar al Qalam, Beirut vol.1, p316


Further commenting on the issue;

When the Quraysh said to him that you can be our king, they were saying that he would be the king of arabia. But he rejected this offer.

When he died, he was the king of Arabia. Islam never had expanded politically to other parts of the world at this time.


The point being made is that he could have simply been king of Arabia without having to go through all this struggle, torture, defensive battles etc. And if he really was doing it for kingdom, he could have accepted this offer. But instead, when he died - he left all of Arabia in a state of true Islam.

This shows that his ambition was for Islam to be upheld, and not merely for the purpose of kingdom, or fame.


So i want some valid responses from you which others can atleast look at and say "hmm.." :rollseyes please.
Reply

K.Venugopal
12-06-2008, 09:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The life of Allah is different to human life, although it still is life.
Exactly, life is life - in various forms and without form.

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Yeah, therefore you would blame God for any evil that occurred on earth right? And put no blame whatsoever on the doer of the action?

If that's the case, you don't think theres anything wrong with crimes such as stealing etc?


This is the EXACT reason Allah sent Messengers', so we had a clear distinction and agreement as to the difference between wrong and right, truth and falsehood. So mankind could unite upon that set truth and live at peace with one another.Peace.
If we cause evil, we are to be blamed. If Allah is the cause, He is to be blamed. As the Creator, if His product malfunctions, He is responsible. But if He is not the creator but the performer himself, the question of blame does not arise - He does what He wants.

Is there anything wrong with crimes such as stealing? We, in the form of humans, would certainly find such crimes unacceptable because we have built-up our society upon some values. But our values are not always black and white. We do tend often to consider motives and we might hail a Robin Hood for stealing.

There is no proof that Allah sent messengers to India or China - yet the people of these nations are not without values of right and wrong.
Reply

August
12-06-2008, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
let me make your life easier about the lost cities too here we go

BTW-- why lay on the table such huge philosophical discussions that will need some biblical backing and research if you are busy with exams?
Whoa, whoa. I never said that Muhammed told stories of cities that couldn't be verified. I said that was one way he and Smith were different. I didn't even know that the Qu'ran had any mention of ancient cities that had been lost.

As to the last part, this debate isn't directly related to my thread-starting question, which was how to form a moral judgement of someone you already believe is a false prophet, I'm just doing my best to answer things that come up in the thread. The only reason I mentioned Joseph Smith initially is that being an American from a western state, he's the false prophet I know the most about.
Reply

August
12-06-2008, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I understand your perspective but find it to be kinda dismissive and narrow.
As if what they brought are even remotely comparable. As if their life story was comparable. As if they both received such wide acceptance from jews and christians. The list goes on but all you can say is "false prophets" which is very much sticking your fingers in your ears.
I just don't buy the argument that wider acceptance makes a thing more true, I mean, if you believed that you'd be a Christian, since there are more Christians than Muslims in the world. I'm not trying to be dismissive, I won't deny the good that has been done in the name of many religions, but that doesn't make them true.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 06:28 PM
If you have pre-formed judgment then what is the point of a debate? you have already made a conclusion without an intelligent thought?
Jesus was a middle easterner so no matter how you slice it whether a Calvinist or a Mennonite or smith, are all heretical and far strayed from the teachings of Jesus!

and actually there are more Muslims than Christians in the world if you do it by substance i.e the majority of Muslims 90% are sunni out of the 1.86 billion, whereas 50% of Christians consider Mormonism to be a sect of Christianity and yet is added to the tally!
Reply

- Qatada -
12-06-2008, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

If we cause evil, we are to be blamed. If Allah is the cause, He is to be blamed. As the Creator, if His product malfunctions, He is responsible. But if He is not the creator but the performer himself, the question of blame does not arise - He does what He wants.
You contradict yourself a great deal, merely because you say that humans and God are one, and then you say that each is separate in doing his actions.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-06-2008, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
I just don't buy the argument that wider acceptance makes a thing more true, I mean, if you believed that you'd be a Christian, since there are more Christians than Muslims in the world. I'm not trying to be dismissive, I won't deny the good that has been done in the name of many religions, but that doesn't make them true.
But then the question comes up, which christian? Sunni Islam is the largest religious denomination. As a whole there are more christians but when you see WHAT type of christians and which denominations, then... the largest single religious denomination is Sunni Islam.

By the way, what about the other points in my post? Their character, accomplishments, influence and miracles were clearly not of the same calibur.
Reply

August
12-06-2008, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
But then the question comes up, which christian? Sunni Islam is the largest religious denomination.
True, but is it really equevalent to a Christian denomination? I mean, there is no official organizational structure for Sunni Islam, no Sunni Pope.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 08:50 PM
Yes thankfully..
how blasphemous is
“father forgive me for I have sinned'? who ordained men to forgive in place of God?

we have scholars that we turn to for help and questions.. which is actually the proper way.. just like with the Jews and their rabbis, we have Islamic scholars!
But you are responsible for your own actions before God.. No one is going to absolve you!
Reply

alcurad
12-06-2008, 08:54 PM
Islam is larger than the sects though.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-06-2008, 08:56 PM
:salamext:


I personally feel that numbers don't really matter, since quality is more important than quantity. i.e. the companions of the Prophets were a minority, but they were much more beneficial to mankind than the later generations.
Reply

August
12-06-2008, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
we have scholars that we turn to for help and questions.. which is actually the proper way.. just like with the Jews and their rabbis, we have Islamic scholars!
Sure, but not all the scholars agree. There are many different people calling themselves sunni Muslims who disagree on what parts of the Koran mean. My point is that Sunni Islam has the same kind of factions and divisions as does Christianity.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -




I'm studying the topic in genetics myself, so i'll learn it some time insha Allah. One thing i dislike about the points made are that it 'might' have happened one way or another, but it would be way more relevant to know what truly happened.

.

Media Tags are no longer supported

It is an amazing process indeed Sobhan Allah.. a conundrum to me how anyone can see it at play and not wonder how it along with billions of other processes in our universe and our body came to be by chance event?.. during such processes of transcription and translation, non-functional bases are excised and removed as to not be incorporated.. a marvel indeed how each enzyme or any part of a cell knows exactly its function..

Did you know for instance that every cell in your body carries exactly the same genetic material.. yet a chondrocyte knows to make collagen and when to stop while a oligodendrocyte-type-2 astrocyte cell lineage is specialized for myelination
would love to see an atheist replicate the process ex nihilo and to that level of intricacy and have it be correct every time around so as to constantly move in that positive direction to favor sentience, life and purpose.. or explain how it came to be through something evident and replicable in a lab setting without resorting to fairy tales which one has to accept on blind faith-- because it sounds better than God did it!

:w:
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-06-2008, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
True, but is it really equevalent to a Christian denomination? I mean, there is no official organizational structure for Sunni Islam, no Sunni Pope.
So? That is the way is the way it is supposed to be. A pope is not necessary at all.

God brought down revelation. Man made the pope and all his fancy incense and "holy water" made in factories.


My point of Sunni popularity stands. So do my other ones about Smith. Comments?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-06-2008, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Sure, but not all the scholars agree. There are many different people calling themselves sunni Muslims who disagree on what parts of the Koran mean. My point is that Sunni Islam has the same kind of factions and divisions as does Christianity.
Sunni scholars are divided on minor issues, major Christian churches are divided on major issues.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2008, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Sure, but not all the scholars agree. There are many different people calling themselves sunni Muslims who disagree on what parts of the Koran mean. My point is that Sunni Islam has the same kind of factions and divisions as does Christianity.
No it really doesn't!
arguing little infinitesimal details where one wouldn't be wrong one way or the other hardly compares to the sectarianism of Christianity.
plus we all use the exact same Quran, and it unadulterated and not the writing of some self appointed apostle who was a known nemesis of Christ while he was with the people.. suddenly he saw the light and at a time when Jesus himself can't point the Judas out and decided to forgo all of what Jesus actually came to teach..

How disconcerting is that?
Reply

Qingu
12-07-2008, 02:37 AM
Due to time constraints, this is probably going to be the last time I'm going to post in this thread. But I would like to discuss abiogenesis some more, so I may start a new thread on that, if that's okay.
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
okay, so the planets were already present in their locations since eternity? that is what i mean when i mean 'formed'.
Wait, you weren't talking about the universe at all, you were just talking about planets?

Of course planets have not always existed. They form on their own perfectly naturally, along with stars and other heavenly objects. Astronomers can even see planets and stars coalescing out of interstellar dust due to the force of gravity.

Tell me this, why is it that people should believe in abiogenesis although it hasn't been proved yet? Yet to believe in God without seeing Him has to be proven before believed?
You are correct—the idea of abiogenesis has not been "proven" in the scientific sense yet (unlike, for example, the theory of relativity or the theory of evolution, which are considered proven concepts by scientists.)

So why believe in it? Because it's a compelling explanation for the origin of life that doesn't seem to contradict any evidence we have and isn't question begging.

You can just say "God did it," but I don't really see how this answer is any different from "I don't know." It doesn't explain anything, it just moves the question to *how* God did it, which is of course always an unanswerable mystery.

Also: having studied and written about the ideas of abiogenesis, I think it is actually a beautiful, elegant idea. Mathematicians and physicists often talk about "beautiful" theories and formulas—by this, they mean there is a certain beauty, an elegance, when a simple formula or idea (like e=mc^2) can explain a huge number of complex phenomena. I think abiogenesis is an example of one such idea: it is the stepping stone from the science of chemistry to the science of biology. The significance of this stepping stone is nothing short of the universe becoming aware of itself, in the form of conscious animal matter.

And this is why I think it's such a shame that so many religious people, including yourself, don't even bother to try to understand the idea that you're criticizing. It bothers me much more than the fact that you don't accept it.

I understand the concept, instead of evading the whole point - lets just jump to the main point - is it easily possible for these amino acids to actually come into existence themselves?
Yes, absolutely. Amino acids (along with other organic compounds, like lipids, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids) are simply clumps or chains of hydrocarbons. We know for a fact that the early earth was full of such hydrocarbons—in fact, such hydrocarbons exist on other planets and moons in our solar system. So the question is simply, could these hydrocarbons combine in a way to produce organic compounds like amino acids?

To do so would take energy, and there are several ways this could have happened:

• Hydrothermal vents (i.e. volcanoes beneath the ocean). A huge amount of energy is released in such places. If you look at hydrothermal vents today, even in the deepest, darkest, coldest reaches of the ocean, they are hot-beds of organic activity.

• Carbonaceous chondrite meteorites. We know that there are meteorites that contain carbon compounds. When these things crashed into the early earth, they could have produced the energy to combine the simple hydrocarbon compounds into organic compounds.

• Lightning. This is what the Miller-Urey experiment tested (and came up positive). Now, your source pointed out that the Miller-Urey experiment is no longer considered valid. This is true, but the reason for this is that Miller and Urey made an inaccurate assumption about the make-up of the early earth's atmosphere. In other words, they shot lightning through stuff that probably didn't exist at the time. However: the experiment has been repeated under a variety of other conditions, and several have turned up organic compounds like amino acids.

Now, we don't know for sure how it actually, since we weren't there—but organic compounds could have formed in any of these three ways. Once you have organic compounds, then of course there are still a lot of steps to go before you have a functioning cell. But there's been a lot of work done about this to, which I'd be happy to share with you (in another thread). For example, all cells today have what are called lipid membranes (lipids are a simple kind of organic compound). This is what holds the stuff inside of the cell in. Scientists have found that lipid membranes, about the size of a cell, form spontaneously, completely on their own, when lipids mix a certain way with water.

Some good points to answer my question, to an extent.

But again, did Joseph Smith's followers be the leaders for humanity and benefit mankind on the same level as the companions of Prophet Muhammad? If you know the depth of Islam and how it took the most backward of nations into the forefront of all fields of advances for more than a millenium - and still benefits its followers (who apply his teachings to their lives) today, wouldn't this be a sign of his Prophethood?
First of all, I fail to see how the actions of Muhammad's followers would determine whether or not Muhammad was a fraud.

Secondly, the rise of Islam was impressive, but not drastically so. Ghengis Kahn conquered more land in a shorter amount of time. Alexander the Great probably improved the lives of the people he conquered as much as the Muslims did. I really don't see how the fact that Muhammad's followers and their descendents ended up conquering a bunch of land and setting up a moderately-lived empire has any bearing on the truth of Muhammad's revelation. Certainly you don't think that Alexander the Great really was a demigod because his followers conquered so much land and spread so much civilization, do you?

Thirdly, Mormons can make the exact same argument! They don't have a military empire, but they have one of the fastest growing religions (faster than Islam, I believe), they have missionaries who travel around the world, who have done enormous good in poor and neglected regions (so they say). Does this mean Joseph Smith wasn't a fraud? I don't think so, but apparently you do.

The most read book in the world since its time is the Qur'an, a book which supercedes all other books in its eloquence, rhetoric and language skills. Yet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was illiterate was able to come up with this? And no-one, not even the most literatelly advanced people since over 1400years were able to supercede it?
First of all, the Bible is more read.

Secondly, the fact that a book is popular has no bearing on whether or not its message is true. Or do you think Harry Potter is the best book ever?

Thirdly, I've read the Quran, and I think it's childish and barbaric. So do many people who have read it in the original Arabic. You happen to disagree with me, but it's not a "fact" that the Quran is the greatest book evar, any more than it's a "fact" that Harry Potter is the greatest book evar—that's simply your opinion.

And fourthly, who cares if Muhammad was illiterate? Someone would have transcribed it. Was he incapable of dictation?

Now tell me, what was Joseph smith like - who was he a role model for, and maybe you can share some of his teachings which benefited humanity on the same scale as Prophet Muhammad?
I have not studied Mormonism as much as I have studied Islam, but I can assure you that Mormons sing Joseph Smith's praises in the same way that you sing Muhammad's.

Here's one fawning biography:

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fullness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum" (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3)."
http://www.josephsmith.com/

Now I don't buy this anymore than I buy Muhammad's followers fawning over him. As I've said throughout this thread, why should I care what someone's devoted followers have to say about them? It's not objective! A king's counselors and loyal servants are obviously going to sing praises about the king. A cult member is going to sing praises about the cult leader.

According to scientologists, L. Ron Hubbard (a science fiction writer who made up the religion of scientology, probably so he could make money out of its tax-exempt status) is the paragon of humanity. Believing what an early Muslim follower has to say about Muhammad is like believing what a scientologist has to say about L. Ron Hubbard.

At which time? Try reading up on the Tang dynasty, and how internal conflict led it to losing any force against Islam.
Huh? Neither Islam nor Chinese civilization had much interaction with each other, certainly not warfare either way (though Chinese did commonly take Muslim slaves and neuter them).

I was simply responding to the claim that Islamic civilization was the most advanced in the world. Even during its golden age, Chinese civilization covered more area and generally had better technology (though, of course, both Islamic and Chinese civilizations have had their ups and downs over time).

You havn't explained at all, and since you believe you're on the truth - i want a satisfactory answer as to what Prophet Muhammad was after when he claimed to be the Messenger of God. Why did he go through this when he could get it all for free anyway? Instead of him and his companions being tortured for over 10 long hard years?
What was he after? The same thing many men are after: fame, power, and women. You've simply chosen to take the rosy interpretation for his acquisition of all these things; I have not, and I don't see why I should.

I'll quote you the event;
From a Muslim source? Why do you believe this even happened? The story is absurd, and sounds conspicuously like the story about Satan offering Jesus all the kingdoms in the world.

It's also the same template as Buddha's story. Siddharta Guatema was a great prince of India, with unlimited riches—and he gave it all up to be a holy man and spread enlightenment.

Moses was a great Egyptian prince, but he gave it all up to spread the truth of God's word, etc.

Rama was a great prince of the kingdom of Ayodhana. But he gave it all up to travel in the wilderness and discover his destiny.

Alexander the Great was a great prince of Macedonia, but he gave up a life of peace and prosperity to expand Greek civilization and free all the lands in Asia (by conquest, of course).

L. Ron Hubbard was a famous science fiction author, but he gave all that up to spread the truth of Scientology.

Do you notice a pattern here? It's one of those standard religious legends. The prophet has everything, or is offered everything, but he does the right thing and turns it down to spread the truth or become enlightened or whatever. But I guess you think it's only true for Muhammad (based on, of course, something his followers wrote down).

Anyway, that's it for me in this thread—we've both stated our positions pretty clearly, and I only hope you've seen my side of it. Peace be upon you.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-07-2008, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Due to time constraints, this is probably going to be the last time I'm going to post in this thread. But I would like to discuss abiogenesis some more, so I may start a new thread on that, if that's okay.

Wait, you weren't talking about the universe at all, you were just talking about planets?

Of course planets have not always existed. They form on their own perfectly naturally, along with stars and other heavenly objects. Astronomers can even see planets and stars coalescing out of interstellar dust due to the force of gravity.


You are correct—the idea of abiogenesis has not been "proven" in the scientific sense yet (unlike, for example, the theory of relativity or the theory of evolution, which are considered proven concepts by scientists.)

So why believe in it? Because it's a compelling explanation for the origin of life that doesn't seem to contradict any evidence we have and isn't question begging.

You can just say "God did it," but I don't really see how this answer is any different from "I don't know." It doesn't explain anything, it just moves the question to *how* God did it, which is of course always an unanswerable mystery.

Also: having studied and written about the ideas of abiogenesis, I think it is actually a beautiful, elegant idea. Mathematicians and physicists often talk about "beautiful" theories and formulas—by this, they mean there is a certain beauty, an elegance, when a simple formula or idea (like e=mc^2) can explain a huge number of complex phenomena. I think abiogenesis is an example of one such idea: it is the stepping stone from the science of chemistry to the science of biology. The significance of this stepping stone is nothing short of the universe becoming aware of itself, in the form of conscious animal matter.

And this is why I think it's such a shame that so many religious people, including yourself, don't even bother to try to understand the idea that you're criticizing. It bothers me much more than the fact that you don't accept it.


Yes, absolutely. Amino acids (along with other organic compounds, like lipids, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids) are simply clumps or chains of hydrocarbons. We know for a fact that the early earth was full of such hydrocarbons—in fact, such hydrocarbons exist on other planets and moons in our solar system. So the question is simply, could these hydrocarbons combine in a way to produce organic compounds like amino acids?

To do so would take energy, and there are several ways this could have happened:

• Hydrothermal vents (i.e. volcanoes beneath the ocean). A huge amount of energy is released in such places. If you look at hydrothermal vents today, even in the deepest, darkest, coldest reaches of the ocean, they are hot-beds of organic activity.

• Carbonaceous chondrite meteorites. We know that there are meteorites that contain carbon compounds. When these things crashed into the early earth, they could have produced the energy to combine the simple hydrocarbon compounds into organic compounds.

• Lightning. This is what the Miller-Urey experiment tested (and came up positive). Now, your source pointed out that the Miller-Urey experiment is no longer considered valid. This is true, but the reason for this is that Miller and Urey made an inaccurate assumption about the make-up of the early earth's atmosphere. In other words, they shot lightning through stuff that probably didn't exist at the time. However: the experiment has been repeated under a variety of other conditions, and several have turned up organic compounds like amino acids.

Now, we don't know for sure how it actually, since we weren't there—but organic compounds could have formed in any of these three ways. Once you have organic compounds, then of course there are still a lot of steps to go before you have a functioning cell. But there's been a lot of work done about this to, which I'd be happy to share with you (in another thread). For example, all cells today have what are called lipid membranes (lipids are a simple kind of organic compound). This is what holds the stuff inside of the cell in. Scientists have found that lipid membranes, about the size of a cell, form spontaneously, completely on their own, when lipids mix a certain way with water.


First of all, I fail to see how the actions of Muhammad's followers would determine whether or not Muhammad was a fraud.

Secondly, the rise of Islam was impressive, but not drastically so. Ghengis Kahn conquered more land in a shorter amount of time. Alexander the Great probably improved the lives of the people he conquered as much as the Muslims did. I really don't see how the fact that Muhammad's followers and their descendents ended up conquering a bunch of land and setting up a moderately-lived empire has any bearing on the truth of Muhammad's revelation. Certainly you don't think that Alexander the Great really was a demigod because his followers conquered so much land and spread so much civilization, do you?

Thirdly, Mormons can make the exact same argument! They don't have a military empire, but they have one of the fastest growing religions (faster than Islam, I believe), they have missionaries who travel around the world, who have done enormous good in poor and neglected regions (so they say). Does this mean Joseph Smith wasn't a fraud? I don't think so, but apparently you do.


First of all, the Bible is more read.

Secondly, the fact that a book is popular has no bearing on whether or not its message is true. Or do you think Harry Potter is the best book ever?

Thirdly, I've read the Quran, and I think it's childish and barbaric. So do many people who have read it in the original Arabic. You happen to disagree with me, but it's not a "fact" that the Quran is the greatest book evar, any more than it's a "fact" that Harry Potter is the greatest book evar—that's simply your opinion.

And fourthly, who cares if Muhammad was illiterate? Someone would have transcribed it. Was he incapable of dictation?


I have not studied Mormonism as much as I have studied Islam, but I can assure you that Mormons sing Joseph Smith's praises in the same way that you sing Muhammad's.

Here's one fawning biography:

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fullness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum" (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3)."
http://www.josephsmith.com/

Now I don't buy this anymore than I buy Muhammad's followers fawning over him. As I've said throughout this thread, why should I care what someone's devoted followers have to say about them? It's not objective! A king's counselors and loyal servants are obviously going to sing praises about the king. A cult member is going to sing praises about the cult leader.

According to scientologists, L. Ron Hubbard (a science fiction writer who made up the religion of scientology, probably so he could make money out of its tax-exempt status) is the paragon of humanity. Believing what an early Muslim follower has to say about Muhammad is like believing what a scientologist has to say about L. Ron Hubbard.


Huh? Neither Islam nor Chinese civilization had much interaction with each other, certainly not warfare either way (though Chinese did commonly take Muslim slaves and neuter them).

I was simply responding to the claim that Islamic civilization was the most advanced in the world. Even during its golden age, Chinese civilization covered more area and generally had better technology (though, of course, both Islamic and Chinese civilizations have had their ups and downs over time).


What was he after? The same thing many men are after: fame, power, and women. You've simply chosen to take the rosy interpretation for his acquisition of all these things; I have not, and I don't see why I should.


From a Muslim source? Why do you believe this even happened? The story is absurd, and sounds conspicuously like the story about Satan offering Jesus all the kingdoms in the world.

It's also the same template as Buddha's story. Siddharta Guatema was a great prince of India, with unlimited riches—and he gave it all up to be a holy man and spread enlightenment.

Moses was a great Egyptian prince, but he gave it all up to spread the truth of God's word, etc.

Rama was a great prince of the kingdom of Ayodhana. But he gave it all up to travel in the wilderness and discover his destiny.

Alexander the Great was a great prince of Macedonia, but he gave up a life of peace and prosperity to expand Greek civilization and free all the lands in Asia (by conquest, of course).

L. Ron Hubbard was a famous science fiction author, but he gave all that up to spread the truth of Scientology.

Do you notice a pattern here? It's one of those standard religious legends. The prophet has everything, or is offered everything, but he does the right thing and turns it down to spread the truth or become enlightened or whatever. But I guess you think it's only true for Muhammad (based on, of course, something his followers wrote down).

Anyway, that's it for me in this thread—we've both stated our positions pretty clearly, and I only hope you've seen my side of it. Peace be upon you.


Your tactic seems to be to gross overgeneralization and whimsical dismissiveness.

Your attempts at comparing the works of Alexander and Smith and Hubbard (sp?) are laughable. Show me what of their works that remains can compare to ISlam?
Muhammad (pbuh) has been named the most influencial person in HISTORY. Jesus pbuh the third.


Keep trying to compare regular humans with Prophets in rdiculously overgeneralized manners like this and you will be met with laughs.

What of Alexander remains? Smith? What did really do for the world? Dont get me started ont he other paltry examples you gave. Honestly this type of argument you use is extremely aggravating.


I will stop now because you complete lack of proper reasoning is infuriating. Please respond with real substance.

Peace.
Reply

جوري
12-07-2008, 02:56 AM
I am not sure he is over generalizing as just under learned -- people when they don't really understand how to apply mathematical variables or laws of physics to other fields that make up out known universe tend to rely mostly on their faith of what they assume to be scientific -- fact is science is ever correcting and ever changing.. what was acceptable ten yrs ago isn't acceptable today.. and yet some would rather concede to archaic understanding of from some two hundred yrs ago because of its relative newness than age old wisdom which in their lilliputian brain can't wrap around---
this doesn't offer us a how.. well science hasn't offered us a data-based how either..

here is an article by Dr. Mullan on the probability of events occurring as fellow above will describe.. for those who are genuinely interested in science!

:w:


1
Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth

Dermott J. Mullan, mullan@bartol.udel.edu

Summary

We evaluate the probability Pr that the RNA of the first cell was
assembled randomly in the time available (1.11 billion years
[b.y.]). To do this calculation, we first set a strict upper limit
on the number of chemical reactions nr which could have occurred
before the first cell appeared.
In order to illustrate the consequences of the finite value of nr,
we make some extremely minimalist assumptions about cells. We
consider a cell composed of Np = 12 proteins, each containing Na =
14 amino acids. We refer to the minimum (Np , Na) set as a (12-14)
cell. Such a cell is smaller than some modern viruses.
The ability to perform any of the basic tasks of the cell is not
necessarily limited to a single protein. Many different proteins
among all those which were available in the primeval soup may have
been able to perform (say) waste disposal. In order to allow for
this in estimating Pr, we include a factor Q to describe how many
different proteins in the primeval soup could have performed each
of the basic tasks of cell operation. The larger Q is, the easier
it is to assemble a functional cell by random processes. However,
there is a maximum value Qmax that is set by phase space arguments.
The hypothesis that life originated by random processes requires
that Pr be of order unity. We estimate how large Q must be (Qra :
subscript “ra” denotes “random assembly”) in order to ensure Pr = 1
in the time that is available (1.11 b.y.). We find that Qra must be
so large as to exceed the maximum permissible value Qmax in the
phase space of proteins comprised of a set of 14 distinct amino
acids. Such a large value of Qra would have serious consequences
for biology: if Qra were truly as large as Qmax in the primeval
soup, then essentially all 14-acid proteins must have possessed
the ability to perform each of the fundamental tasks in the cell.
That is, there was no task specificity among the proteins: a
protein which was able (say) to maintain the membrane in a cell
would also have been able to control (say) the replication
process.
In such a situation, the very concept of a cell, as a wellorganized
factory in which the task of each department is
regulated, and each department must coordinate dependably with all
2
others, would no longer be valid. A cell would quickly be reduced
to an unpredictable entity which lacked robust properties.
In the “real world”, where a cell must be able to preserve itself
and replicate faithfully from generation to generation, it seems
inevitable that the various proteins must be prevented (by nature)
from performing multiple tasks. That is, there must be a certain
amount of specificity to the task that any given protein can
perform: of all available proteins, only a fraction F should be
capable of performing the task of (say) membrane repair. In a cell
where the number of proteins is Np, the restraints of specificity
require that the value of F can certainly not exceed 1/Np. But F
might be much smaller than this upper limit. This leads us to
introduce a “protein specificity index” m such that the actual
value of F in the primeval soup is usefully written as (1/Np)m. In
the modern world, the value of m ranges from 1 to a maximum value
between about 10 and 20.
We find that, even assigning the minimum possible specificity (m =
1), the probability Pr of assembling the RNA of a (12-14) cell by
random processes in 1.11 billion years using triplet codons is no
more than one in 1079. And if the protein tasks are even marginally
specific (with m = 2-3, say), the chances of random assembly of
RNA for the first cell decreases to less than one in 10100.
In order to improve the chances of random assembly of the first
cell, we consider a situation which might have existed in the
young Earth. We suppose that proteins could be constructed using a
smaller set (numbering Naa) of distinct amino acids: we consider
the case of Naa = 5 (instead of the modern 20). If, in these
conditions, the number of bases in DNA remained as large as 4,
then doublet codons sufficed to encode protein production with the
same amount of error protection as occurs in the modern (triplet)
genetic code. In such conditions, the probability of randomly
assembling the RNA for the first cell in 1.11 b.y. improves.
However, it is still small: the optimal probability is no more
than one in 1063.
To improve the probability even further, it is tempting to
consider the possibility of singlet codons. But we point out that
these are not relevant in a realistic biology.
In the context of doublet codons, we can improve the probability Pr
of random assembly by considering a larger set of distinct amino
acids. The number of distinct amino acids for which doublet-codons
can encode ranges from 5 to 14 (allowing for start and stop
codons). As Naa increases above 5, there is a marked improvement in
3
Pr for a (12-14) cell: in fact, Pr may approach a value of order
unity when Naa = 11 provided that the specificity index m is
smaller than 1.3. (This is far below the average value of m, and
represents very marginal specificity.) And Pr formally exceeds
unity for Naa in the range from 12 to 14, provided that m does not
exceed 2.5. This value of specificity is still well below the
average value. It is not clear that a functioning cell could
survive for long with such low protein specificities.
Nevertheless, the fact that Pr formally reaches a value as large as
unity suggests that we may have found a window of opportunity for
random assembly of the first (12-14) cell.
However, these cells face a potentially fatal problem: even with
11 amino acids to be encoded by 16 codons in the RNA, there is
little redundancy in the genetic code. And for Naa = 14, the
redundancy vanishes altogether. As a result, there is a much
reduced error protection in the code which translates the
information in RNA to proteins. In the limit Naa = 14, there is no
error protection at all: transcription from RNA to protein then
has no immunity against noise. Moreover, in the limit Naa = 14
(plus a start and stop), proteins would be equally able to encode
for RNA, in violation of the Central Dogma of biology. Therefore,
although the probability of randomly assembling the RNA for a (12-
14) cell in such a world may approach unity in a mathematical
sense, it is not clear how useful such a cell would be for
biology.
We stress that our assumptions about a (12-14) cell are minimalist
in the extreme. In the “real world”, it is not obvious that a
protein containing only 14 peptides will be able to fold into a
stable 3-dimensional shape at the temperatures where water is
liquid. And in the “real world”, a cell probably requires as many
as 250 proteins to function. In such case, even if Naa = 14, Pr
approaches unity only if the specificity index m lies in the very
restricted range between 1.0 and 1.17. We identify this as a
narrow window of opportunity for random assembly of primitive
cells. But even this narrow window closes altogether if our
estimate of the number of chemical reactions is too large by
several orders of magnitude (as it may well be).
Our calculations refer only to the assembling of a cell in which
the genetic code is already at work. We do not address the origin
of the genetic code itself.
We conclude that, even if we assume that the genetic code was
already in existence (by some unspecified mechanism), conditions
in the early Earth must have been “finely tuned” in order to
4
“squeeze through” the narrow window of opportunity and assemble
the first cell on Earth in a truly random manner.

1. Introduction
Evolution theory claims that all species of animals and plants
that now exist on Earth came into existence as a result of random
variations in pre-existing species. It is presumed that life on
Earth began as a single cell. An essential aspect of evolution
theory is that the first living cell originated in the early Earth
also as a result of random processes.
When Darwin proposed his theory of evolution, he did not know the
chemical make-up of a cell. Therefore, when he appealed to random
processes at work in nature, he could be excused for not knowing
what exactly was entailed in such processes. But in our day and
age, advances in microbiology and biochemistry have opened up to
us the molecular details of the processes that occur in living
cells. For example, we now know the make-up of proteins and DNA.
In fact, we will need to describe these in some detail in order to
proceed with our discussion of the probability of random
formation. (We will return to these details below.)
We are now in a position to spell out the chemical processes that
must have occurred if the first cell was indeed put together by
chance.
2. The challenge of creating the first cell
The question we wish to examine here is the following. If the
process of assembling the first cell occurred in a truly random
manner in the early Earth, what conditions would be needed?
To address this question, we need to answer two more basic
questions: (a) how much time was available before the first cell
appeared? And (b) how many chemical reactions of the correct type
could have occurred in the time available? The aim here is to
answer these questions as quantitatively as possible.
The answer to question (b) will set a limit on the properties of
the first cell that would have been created by random processes in
the early Earth.
We turn first to the question of how much time was available for
the development of the first living cell.

5


3. The earliest life forms on Earth
The fossil record indicates that the first life forms to appear on
Earth existed some 3.45 billion years ago. These are cyanobacteria
(formerly called blue-green algae) which are found in rocks from
Apex Chert, Australia. ). The first life forms on Earth were
single-cell organisms. (See http://www.unimuenster.
de/GeoPalaeontologie/Palaeo/Palbot/seite1.html
It is hardly surprising from an evolutionary standpoint that the
earliest forms of life on Earth were single-cell organisms.
Presumably it is easier for random processes to give rise to a
single cell first, before bringing forth a multi-cell organism.
4. How much time elapsed before the first cell appeared on Earth?

The age of the Earth, based on radioactive dating of rocks, is
estimated to be 4.56 billion years old. Comparing this with the
cyanobacteria ages, we see that the first living cells appeared
within a time interval of 1.11 billion years of the formation of
the Earth.
Therefore, the time tfc required for the development of the first
cell on the Earth is certainly no longer than 1.11 billion years.
Actually, the value of tfc might be much shorter than this.
Astronomers who calculate the internal structure of the Sun find
that the Sun has not always been as luminous as it is today: the
young Sun is calculated to have had a luminosity that is some 20-
30 percent fainter than it is today. Therefore, the mean
temperature on the early Earth might have been considerably colder
than it is today, so cold that the water on Earth’s surface was
frozen. (This is the “faint young Sun problem”: Sagan and Mullen,
1972, Science vol. 177, 52).
It is likely that the development of life requires water to be in
liquid form. The solar structure calculations suggest that the
energy provided by the Sun to the Earth might not have become
sufficient to melt the ice until the Sun was about 700 hundred
million years old. This means that the first living cell appeared
no more than about 400 million years after liquid water became
available.
Moreover, the early Earth would have been subject to a more or
less heavy bombardment by the debris of the proto-planetary disk
6
before the latter was finally cleared out. The impacts of
planetesimals (such as that which destroyed the dinosaurs some 60
Myr ago) would have interrupted the processes which were “trying
to form” the first cell. Large impacts might have reduced the
interval for assembling the first cell to even less than 400
million years.
However, in order to improve the chances of evolution, let us
grant a full 1.11 billion years and ask the question: could the
first cell have developed by random processes in 1.11 billion
years?
The number of seconds of time in 1.11 billion years is 3.5X1016. We
will need this number in what follows.


5. Some essential constituents of cells
Now that we know how much time is available, we move on to the
main question that we wish to address: how was the first living
cell formed? Evolution theory asserts that it was formed by random
processes. We wish to assess the probability of such processes.
To assess realistically the chances of assembling the first cell
by chance, we need to know certain fundamental properties of the
components that go to make up a cell. Let us first summarize
these.
5.1. What do we need to know about proteins?

There are three levels of structure within a protein which are
relevant to us here.
(a) Primary Structure

A protein consists of a series of amino acids that are linked (by
peptide bonds) into a chain in a specific order. The change of
even a single amino acid in a chain of dozens or hundreds of amino
acids may in certain cases disrupt the functioning of the protein.
(b) Secondary structure
In order that proteins may function, the primary structure (i.e. a
chain of amino acids) is not sufficient. Certain segments of the
amino acids in the chain group themselves together into sub-units
known as alpha-helixes, beta-sheets, and beta-turns. For example,
7
an alpha-helix consists of a chain of consecutive amino acids
arranged in a twisted three-dimensional structure (including 3.6
acids per turn of the helix) with well-defined angles between
neighboring acids in the chain.
These well-defined sub-units form the secondary structure of the
protein: they are stable and rigid, like “lego” blocks which can
be “fitted together” into a larger structure.
(c) Tertiary structure
Once the “lego” blocks are available, the stage is set for the
protein to go beyond the secondary structure: using available
thermal energy, the protein twists and folds itself into a certain
3-dimensional structure with specific bumps and hollows. These
bumps and hollows, which are referred to as the tertiary structure
of the protein, determine where electric charge builds up, and
these localized charges control the protein’s function, including
the reactions that it can catalyze (if it is an enzyme). For
example, insulin (one of the shortest proteins in the human body,
with 51 amino acids) folds itself naturally into a wedge-like
shape which enables groups of six insulin molecules to pack
themselves tightly into spherical clusters.
The sequence of amino acids in a particular protein may be highly
specific at certain locations. There are certain sites in the
protein (“invariant sites”) where even a single alteration in the
sequence can lead to drastic changes in the shape of the folded
protein, thereby disabling the protein. For example, human
hemoglobin, the protein that carries oxygen through the blood,
contains Na = 574 amino acids arranged in four secondary sub-units,
with an overall spherical tertiary structure. Two of the invariant
sites in hemoglobin have attracted widespread attention because of
the drastic consequences they may have in a certain segment of the
population. If one of the amino acids (glutamic acid) in a certain
position in two of the sub-units of the hemoglobin molecule is
replaced by another amino acid (valine), the result is the painful
and deadly disease known as sickle cell anemia. Although it would
seem that switching only 2 out of 574 amino acids ought to have an
insignificant effect, this is not the case for these two
particular sites. Just by changing 2 amino acids and leaving all
the remaining 572 as before, the process of folding the molecule
is altered so much that the 3-dimensional shape of the hemoglobin
changes is no longer spherical. Instead the molecule takes on an
elongated structure resembling a sickle.
8
There are some proteins in which essentially all sites are
invariant. For example, histones which have at least 125 amino
acids in the peptide chain, have 122 invariant sites. Such
proteins are therefore exceedingly specific in the arrangement of
amino acids.
However, not all sites in all proteins are invariant. In many
proteins, there are sites where the amino acid can be replaced by
a number of other amino acids without affecting the functioning of
the protein. Yockey (Information Theory and Molecular Biology,
1992, Cambridge Univ. press, 408 pp; Table 6.3) discusses the
example of a particular protein (iso-1-cytochrome c, with 110
amino acids), with a list of all amino acids which are
functionally equivalent at each site. Some sites can have up to 13
different amino acids and still the protein retains functionality,
whereas others (the invariant sites) must contain one and only
particular amino acid in order to protect against protein
dysfunction.
At the primary level, the linear sequence of amino acids in a
protein is important to the proper operation of a living cell. But
in order to reach the final operating stage (which is fully threedimensional),
the creation of the “lego” blocks (i.e. stable and
reproducible secondary structure) is an essential intermediate
stage.
(d) How long are the secondary structures?
A central question in the present context is: what is the minimum
requirement for the “lego” blocks to be formed? What does it take
to be able to create the rigid sub-units which are used in making
the final protein? The answer is found in the quantum chemistry of
an alpha-helix and a beta-sheet: in principle, a sequence of at
least 4 amino acids is required in order to make the smallest
alpha helix (this allows for one complete turn of the helix). The
minimum size of a beta-sheet may be comparable.
However, the minimum size is not the only factor that is at work
in creating the “lego” blocks in proteins: the question of
stability also enters, because it is a fundamental requirement for
living cells that the secondary structures must be rigid.
Otherwise, the shapes of proteins in a cell would be subject to
chaotic fluctuations. Studies of reproducible structure of subsequences
in proteins suggests that chains of at least 7 amino
9
acids are required in order to create a stable and reproducible
“lego” (Sudarsanam and Srinivasan, 1996, abstract E0274, IUCR
Seattle meeting). It therefore seems unlikely that stable “lego”
blocks can be constructed with a chain that is less than 7 amino
acids long.
Now, the tertiary structure of a protein comes into existence only
if at least two stable “lego” blocks are joined together in a
reproducible 3-dimensional structure. (Many proteins require more
than 2 secondary structures: e.g. hemoglobin contains 4.) Thus,
the bare minimum requirement for a protein is that Na should be at
least twice the bare minimum needed for rigid and stable secondary
structure. According to the estimates of Sudarsanam and
Sreenivasan, this requires Na = Nmin = 14.
We emphasize that this assumption of a mere 14 amino acids in a
functioning protein is extreme. A protein with only 14 amino acids
is very short in terms of the proteins that exist either in the
modern world (e.g. insulin, with its 51 amino acids, and
hemoglobin, with its 574 amino acids), or even in ancient
proteins. For example, bacterial ferrodoxins, with at last 56
amino acids, “are believed to date nearly to the time of the
origin of life, and the histones which are also believed to be
ancient and have at least 125 amino acids” (Yockey, p. 143). Even
in the earliest stages of life on the planet, before the so-called
“breakthrough organism” had appeared, the proteins that might have
been operational back then have earned the title of “miniproteins
” because the number of amino acids they contained was
“perhaps 20 or shorter” (Maniloff, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA,
vol. 93, p. 10004, 1996).
Computational attempts to “construct” proteins which are capable
of folding into a certain unique and stable tertiary structure
have been made by several groups. Dahiyat and Mayo (Science vol.
278, p. 82, 1997) found that, using only amino acids which occur
in modern nature, the shortest protein without sulfides or metals
that folds into a stable tertiary structure contains 25 amino
acids. An earlier computation (Struthers et al., Science vol. 271,
p. 342, 1996) had obtained a stable tertiary structure with a
chain of only 23 amino acids: however, one of the 23 was a nonnatural
amino acid. It seems that polypeptide chains with fewer
than 23-25 amino acids can probably not create the tertiary
structure which is key to protein function unless they are
assisted by sulfides or metals.
How far below the 23-25 limit can a functional protein go when
assisted by sulfides and metals? The answer is not clear. However,
10
it seems unlikely that the limit will be reduced below 14, which
is our limit based on the stability properties of at least two
“lego” pieces (alpha-helices and beta-sheets). In fact, in terms
of the thermal energy which is available, it is not clear that a
protein as short as 14 amino acids will be “foldable” or
“bendable” at temperatures where water is liquid.
Nevertheless, in the spirit of optimizing probabilities, we assume
that polypeptides in the primeval soup could indeed function as
proteins while containing no more than 14 amino acids.
5.2. What do we need to know about DNA?
DNA is a molecule that has the shape of a long twisted ladder (the
"double helix"). In this ladder, there are "rungs" connecting the
long "sidepieces". The "sidepieces" are long linear chains of
sugars and phosphates, while each "rung" is composed of two
interlocking bases. The four bases consist of two purines and two
pyrimidines. The bases in the ladder are arranged in a definite
order, just as amino acids are arranged in a definite order in a
protein.
When a cell wishes to reproduce a certain protein, the section (or
"gene") of DNA that is responsible for that protein must undergo a
well-defined process. First, the two bases that are interlocked in
each rung of the ladder in that section must be "unzipped" so as
to expose a sequence of bases. The exposed sequence then creates a
strip of RNA whose task is to assemble amino acids from the cell
medium in the correct order.
The order of the bases along the DNA “ladder” (or along the RNA
strip) is highly specific, just as the order of acids in the
protein is crucial for protein function. The change of even a
single base inside a gene may result in the creation of the wrong
protein, and the organism may die as a result. This indicates the
need for serious error-protection in the process of replication of
a cell.
6. Cell structure: high information content
Even a “simple” cell is a complicated system where chemicals of
various kinds operate in a synergistic way to provide various
functions that are essential to cell viability.
11
The outer wall (or membrane) provides the cell with its own
identity, and separates it from the rest of the world. Apart from
the membrane, i.e. inside the body of the cell itself, there are a
number of sub-systems that must run cooperatively in order to keep
the cell in operation. The most important chemicals are proteins
and the DNA that has the capacity to reproduce those proteins.
Some proteins provide the structural characteristics of the
different components of the cell. Some proteins serve as catalysts
in the various chemical reactions that keep the cell running.
There are also regulatory proteins which ensure that each protein
performs its function only in its proper location within the cell:
it would not do, e.g., to have energy generation occurring in the
cell membrane. In a multi-cell organism, these regulatory proteins
ensure that (e.g.) kidney cells do not grow in (say) the eye.
It is amazing that there is enough information in a linear object
(a DNA strand) to determine a three-dimensional object (a
protein). How is it that the sequence of bases in DNA instructs
the cell to make proteins, each of which is a “sentence” composed
of a specific sequence of various choices from a “vocabulary” of
the 20 (or so) amino acids which occur in modern proteins? (There
are many more amino acids in nature, but they are non-proteinous,
and we do not consider them here.) The beginnings of an answer
were first proposed by Gamow (1954: Nature 173, 318): there exists
a code which translates the information in the bases in DNA into
the amino acids in protein. This was an amazing insight on Gamow’s
part. As Yockey says (p. 4): “The idea…of a code is so
unconventional that had Gamow’s paper been submitted by almost
anyone else, it would most certainly have been rejected”.
The eventual identification of the code at the heart of biology is
a triumph of human ingenuity. The bases in DNA are now known to be
grouped into 64 “code words”, and the sequence of these words
contain the information which is eventually translated into the
20-letter vocabulary of proteinous amino acids.
A more difficult question to answer is: how do the amino acids
“understand” the “language” of the “words of information” that are
contained in the DNA? (For example, a string of letters may mean
one thing to a Frenchman, something else to a German, and nothing
at all to an Englishman.) It is not obvious that an answer has yet
been given to this question. It may in fact be the most difficult
question of all to answer. For example, Yockey (2000: Computers
and Chemistry 24, 105) argues that the answer may simply be beyond
the powers of human reasoning. In the present calculation, we do
not address the issue of the origin of the code. We merely assume
12
that the code is already in existence as a result of unspecified
processes in the early Earth.
Returning to a question about the links between DNA and protein
that can be answered, the distinction between 64 and 20 is
noteworthy and essential for living cells. In terms of coding
theory, the fact that 64 greatly exceeds 20 means that DNA code
has a lot of built-in redundancy: there are more code words (or
symbols) at the source (DNA) than at the destination (protein).
Coding theory proves that this redundancy of source relative to
destination is an essential feature of a code in order to protect
from errors in transmission. One of the theorems of coding theory
(Shannon’s channel capacity theorem) makes a strong statement
which at first sight appears counterintuitive (Yockey, p. 8): even
if there is noise in a message, the proper use of redundancy
allows one to extract the original message “with as small a
probability of error as we please”.
Therefore, if we were to attempt to construct a biological system
based on a code where redundancy is absent (and we shall mention
one such attempt in Section 19 below), the process of cell
replication would inevitably be prone to errors in transmission.
Since even a single error may prove to have mortal consequences
for a protein (and its host organism), it is hard to see how cells
that are subject to serious errors in replication could be
regarded as “living” in any meaningful sense.
The code words in DNA in the modern world consist of a series of
triplets of bases. Each triplet (written as ACG, or UGA, etc,
where each of the letters A, C, G, and U is the initial letter of
one of the 4 bases) encodes for a particular amino acid. There are
64 such triplets available as a source code. (We will consider
below the possibility that triplet codons were not necessary in
the primeval soup, but that doublet codons might have sufficed
then.)
If a cell contains a particular protein that is a chain of Na amino
acids in a certain sequence, then the DNA of that cell contains a
corresponding segment containing 3Na bases also arranged in a
sequence that exactly parallels the Na acids in the protein.
However, this is not all that is required for a gene. Since the
DNA consists of a long chain of bases, we need to ask: how does
the RNA know where to start “reading” the code for a particular
protein? The answer is: in the DNA itself, associated with each
gene, there must be a “start code” and a “stop code”. In fact, a
triplet of bases serves to encode START and another triplet to
13
encode STOP. (E.g., in modern cells, the triplet AUG encodes for
start, while stop has three possible codons: UAA, UAG, UGA.).
Therefore, although a strip of RNA needs to have 3Na bases in a
particular order, the gene (i.e. the corresponding piece of the
DNA) must have 3Na+6 bases in a particular order.
As an example, we note that among the shortest proteins that exist
in human beings, insulin contains 51 amino acids in a particular
order. Such a protein requires a sequence of 153 bases in human
DNA in a specific order, plus 6 bases for start and stop.


7. What does a cell need in order to function?
To determine the probability that the first cell was assembled
randomly, we first need to answer the following general question:
what is required in order to make a functional living cell?
In other words, what is the bare minimum number of proteins for a
cell to function at all? If we can answer this, it should help us
determine what the very first cell might have looked like.
As a first step in answering this, it is worthwhile to consider
the simplest known cell that exists in the world today. This is an
organism called "Mycoplasma genitalium" (MG) whose genetic
information is many times smaller than the information in the
human genome: the number of genes required for the functioning of
MG in its natural state is only 517. (Humans have tens of
thousands of genes.)
Recently, researchers have raised the interesting issue: are all
517 of these genes really necessary for MG to function properly?
The answer is No. By removing genes one at a time, researchers
have been able to show that the cell continues to function with
fewer than the total complement of 517. By eliminating more and
more of the genes, it has emerged that MG continues to function
normally as long as there are between 265 and 350 protein-coding
genes (see Hutchison et al., Science vol. 286, p. 2165, 1999). An
earlier estimate of the minimum cell size in nature had suggested
that the minimum number of proteins for cell operation might
indeed be about 250 (J. Maniloff, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol.
93, p, 10004, 1996).
It appears, then, that the simplest cell in the modern world
requires at least 250 proteins in order to survive in viable form.
Many of the 250 (or so) essential proteins in MG have identifiable
14
functions. Hutchison et al. list 13 categories of identified
functions in the MG genome: (1) cell envelope, (2) cellular
processes, (3) central intermediary metabolism, (4) co-factors and
carriers, (5) DNA metabolism, (6) energy metabolism, (7) fatty
acid metabolism, (8) nucleotides, (9) protein fate, (10) protein
synthesis, (11) regulatory functions, (12) transport/binding
proteins, and (13) transcription. Each of these 13 categories
contains multiple genes, so that (e.g.) protein synthesis does not
depend solely on a single protein for its operation: there are
backups and multiple redundancies in each category. For example,
some 19 proteins are used for membrane maintenance (category (1)).
About 150 of the MG proteins can be assigned with some confidence
to one of the 13 categories.
However, more than 100 of the MG genes perform functions that are
currently unidentified. Nevertheless, the cell certainly requires
them: without them, there is empirical proof that the cell fails
to function.
8. The first cells to appear on Earth: reducing the requirements
to an absolute minimum
It might be argued that the first cells to appear on Earth were
smaller than the simplest cells (such as MG) that exist in the
world today. Those primitive cells might have been able to operate
with many fewer proteins than the 265 needed by MG.
Although we will use this argument below, it is actually difficult
to substantiate. The mathematician John Von Neumann estimated the
bare necessities which are necessary in order to construct what he
referred to as “a self-replicating machine” (Theory of Self-
Reproducing Automata: Univ. of Illinois press, 1966). It has been
a popular exercise among science fiction writers to use this idea
in connection with how a civilization might colonize a galaxy by
sending out machines. Von Neumann concluded that the number of
parts in one such machine must be in the millions. Other authors
have reduced this estimate somewhat, but even according to the
most optimistic estimate, the numbers remain very large: the best
estimates suggest that there must be between 105 and 106 parts in a
self-replicating machine. This means that the genome needs at
least 105 bits in order to metabolize and replicate (Yockey, p.
334). Using the information content in a typical modern protein,
Yockey concludes that the original genome must have been able to
specify at least 267 proteins. The fact that this is close to the
minimum number required for a modern cell (such as MG) suggests
that one is not necessarily permitted to assume that the original
15
cell contained significantly fewer proteins than the smallest
modern cell.
Nevertheless, other authors have argued that the Von Neumann
approach is overly restrictive. E.g., Niesert (1987, origins of
Life 17, 155)) estimates that the first cell might have been able
to operate with as few as 300-400 amino acids.
Which of these various estimates of minimum requirements for the
first cell should we consider? There must be some absolute minimum
requirements for making even the simplest cell. For example, one
might argue that, among the 12 non-regulatory categories of gene
functions listed by Hutchison et al., one representative protein
should be present in the first cell. And each of these 12 proteins
should have an accompanying protein to serve in a regulatory role.
This line of reasoning would suggest that 24 proteins are a
minimum for cell operation.
Can we reduce this to an even barer minimum? Examples of minimum
cell requirements have been summarized by the paleontologist
George Gaylord Simpson. Of the 13 categories listed by Hutchison
et al, Simpson narrows down the bare minimum to the following: (i)
energy generation, (ii) storing information; (iii) replicating
information; (iv) an enclosure to prevent dispersal of the
interacting sub-structures; (v) digestion of food; (vi) waste
product ejection (Science vol. 143, p. 771, 1964).
In view of these bare-bones requirements, it is hard to imagine
how any cell could function without at least the following six
types of proteins: (i) those that help to digest food, (ii) those
that generate energy for cell operations, (iii) those that carry
away waste products, (iv) those that preserve and repair the cell
membrane, (v) those that determine when reproduction is to occur,
and (vi) those which actually catalyze the tasks of reproduction.
Corresponding to each of these six, there must be a regulatory
protein which ensures that the corresponding protein does not
“express itself” in the wrong location in the cell.
It is hard to imagine how a living cell would exist at all if it
failed to contain at least these 12 proteins.
The fact that the simplest cell in the modern world (MG) requires
265 proteins as a bare minimum in order to function makes our
estimate of 12 proteins look ridiculously small. But since it is
possible that the first living cells may have been much simpler
than those we find in the world today, let us make the (perhaps
16
absurdly reductionist) assumption that the first cells in fact
were able to operate on the basis of the bare minimum 12 proteins.
As an illustration of how reductionist our assumption is, we note
that in the first cell, we are assuming that a single protein is
responsible for ensuring proper functioning of the lipid membrane
of that cell. In contrast, the smallest known cell in the modern
world (MG) uses 19 genes to encode for lipoproteins (Hutchison et
al. Science vol. 286, p. 2166). The use of 19 genes in the modern
cell is an example of the large amount of redundancy that nature
uses to ensure that the membrane survives. But the first cell may
not have had the luxury of redundancy: it may have been forced to
survive using only one gene for its membrane. It would have been a
precarious existence.
We have argued that each protein must contain at least 14 amino
acids: thus our bare minimum cell, with 12 proteins and 14 amino
acids in each, contains 168 amino acids. This is even smaller than
the bare minimum of 300-400 amino acids described by Niesert
(1987, Origins of Life, 17, 155). The DNA of our minimal (12-14)
cell would contain only about 500 bases. This is 10 times shorter
than the genome of a certain virus (PHI-X 174) which transmits 9
proteins. It is widely believed that a virus cannot be regarded as
a “living cell” (it has no self-contained replication system), so
this again indicates the extreme nature of our assumption that the
first cell could have as few as 12 proteins. But let us proceed in
the spirit of optimizing the probability that the first cell
appeared by chance.
8.1. The first cell: putting the proteins together by chance
In the early Earth, the commonest concept of conditions back then
is that the primeval "soup" consisted of various chemicals that
were stirred up and forced into contact with one another as a
result of the forces of nature (including rain, ocean currents,
lightning). Simple chemical reactions in the soup were easily able
to create amino acids: these molecules are so small (containing no
more than 10-30 atoms each) that random processes can put them
together quickly from the abundant C, O, N, and H atoms in the
soup. As a result, we expect to find in the primeval soup, in
abundant supply, all of the 22 amino acids that occur in modern
life forms. (For the number 22, see Nature vol. 417, 478, 2002).
In fact, there are more than 100 amino acids in modern nature, but
only 22 are used in proteins. And of those 22, numbers 21 and 22
are rare. Most living material relies on only 20 of these amino
acids, and we will use that number here.
17
To be sure, the “primeval soup” hypothesis is not without its
opponents (e.g. Yockey, pp. 235-241). Laboratory experiments which
claim to replicate conditions in the primeval Earth generate not
only amino acids but also a tarry substance (as the principal
product). This substance should have survived as a non-biological
kerogen in ancient sedimentary rocks, but no evidence for this has
been found. It should not be surprising that, in the primeval
soup, other amino acids, not currently used in life forms, could
have been formed. (This would include the acids that are used in
nylon.) And each of the amino acids which are created randomly in
the primeval soup would be created in two forms: the D-variety and
the L-variety. (These varieties refer to the ability of the
molecule to rotate the polarization of light either right or left:
this ability depends on the chirality of the molecule, i.e. on the
handedness of its 3-dimensional structure.) For reasons that are
not yet obvious, only one of these varieties (the L-variety) is
actually used in present-day life forms. However, the basic
property of amino acids, that they polymerize, operates only
between L alone or D alone: when an L and a D amino acid combine,
their opposite chirality has the effect of locking out any
possibility of further polymerization.
Another difficulty of a very different nature has to do with
reactions in an aqueous solution. The very process of assembling
amino acids into a polypeptide chain (so as to make a protein)
requires the removal of H from the amino radical and the removal
of OH from the acid radical: it is not obvious how these
constituents of a water molecule can be removed in an aqueous
solution.
Despite these difficulties with the primeval soup hypothesis, the
idea of the soup is so widespread in textbooks that it is a
natural starting point for an optimized estimate of probabilities.
In the spirit of the present approach (where we do whatever we can
to optimize the chances of assembling the first cell randomly), we
will simply go along with the textbooks. We shall assume that the
formation of the first cell in the early Earth began in liquid
water where only 20 L-amino acids need to be taken into account.
Other simple chemical reactions in the soup also give rise more or
less quickly to the four bases (two purines and two pyrimidines)
that form the "rungs" of DNA. Why are these formed relatively
readily? Because each base consists on no more than 13-16 atoms,
random processes can also assemble these bases rapidly from the
abundant C, O, N, and H atoms. It was probably more difficult to
form pyrimidines than purines, but the principle is robust:
18
formation of small molecules is essentially inevitable in the
early Earth.
In order for the first cell to come into existence, at least 12
proteins, each with Na amino acids in a specific order, had to
emerge in the same patch of the "primeval soup". To be sure,
individual proteins were probably emerging at random at many
places around the world. But if our aim is to form a complete
living cell, it will not help if the membrane protein emerged (at
random) in China, the energy protein in Russia, and the
replication protein in South America. That will not do: the only
way to have the first cell develop is if all 12 proteins emerge in
close enough proximity to one another to be contained within a
single membrane.
How might this have happened in random processes? By way of
example, let us consider one particular protein, in which the
chain of amino acids happens to be denoted by the series of
letters ABCDEFGHIJKLMN. In order that this protein be made by
chance, amino acid E (say) (one of the 20 commonest in nature)
might have started off by entering into a chemical reaction with
amino acid F (another of the 20), such that the two found it
possible to become connected by a peptide bond. Then amino acid D
might have had a chemical reaction so as to join onto the EF pair
at the left end, forming DEF by means of a new peptide bond. Note
that it is important to form DEF rather than EFD, which would be a
very different protein. This process presumably continued until
the entire 14-unit protein chain ABCDEFGHIJKLMN was complete.
8.2. The first cell: putting the DNA/RNA together by chance
It is not enough to assemble 12 proteins to have a functional
living cell: the cell must be able to reproduce, and for that
the cell needs DNA (or at least RNA). In order to ensure
reproduction of the cell, there had to be (also in the same patch
of the primeval soup) at least 12 genes on an RNA strand, each
containing 3Na+6 bases in a specific order.
Thus, in the very same patch of "soup" where the protein
ABCDEFGHIJ formed by chance, a strand of RNA must have been formed
where the three bases that encode for amino acid A were joined in
a specific order along the RNA strip by a series of chemical
reactions. Then the three bases that encode for amino acid B had
to be added in a specific order to the sidepieces, right next to
the three bases that encode for A. This process must have
continued until the triplets of bases that encode for each of C,
D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, and N respectively were assembled in
19
a specific order into a chain of 30 bases. There would also be one
triplet at each end of the 30-base sequence to serve as markers
for start and stop. This 36-base sequence would then form the gene
for the first protein in the first cell.
Now that we know how the first proteins and RNA/DNA were put
together, we are in a position to estimate the probability that
this will occur by random processes.
9. Probability of protein formation at random
In the example given above, we recall that amino acid (say) E is
only one of 20 amino acids that exist in living matter. Amino acid
F is also one of 20. Therefore, a process that successfully forms
the sequence EF at random out of a soup where all amino acids are
present in equal abundances, has a probability p2 which is roughly
equal to (1/20) times (1/20) = 1/400.
Actually, however, pre-living matter contains not only the Lvariety
of each amino acid, but also the D-variety. Therefore, a
better estimate of the probability p2 that the correct pair of Lamino
acids be formed is (1/40) times (1/40), i.e. p2 = 1/1600.
However, once an L-acid unites with a D-acid, the opposite nature
of their chiralities leads to a “lock-out”: no further
polymerization is possible. So we will optimize probability by
assuming that only the L-variety is present. We therefore take p2 =
1/400.
Another way to state this result is that if we wish to create the
combination EF (both L-variety) by chance, the number of chemical
reactions that must first occur between amino acids in the
primeval soup is about 1/p2, or about 400. That is, if we allow so
much time to elapse that 400 reactions can occur in the primeval
soup, then there is a high probability (close to a certainty) that
the combination EF will appear simply at random.
This argument assumes that the only amino acids in the primeval
soup are the 20 which occur in modern living organism. However,
there were certainly other non-biological amino acids available.
As a result, many more than 400 reactions was almost certainly
required before the combination EF appeared at random. However, we
will optimize the chances for random assembly of the first cell by
ignoring the non-biological amino acids.
After creating EF by random processes, the next step is to have
the next amino acid to join the chain be the L-variety of (say) G,
i.e. only 1 out of the 20 types available. Then the probability
20
that the three amino acids EFG will be assembled in the correct
order is about (1/20)3.
Continuing this all the way through a sequence of Na amino acids
in a protein, the chance f1 of correctly picking (at random) all
the necessary amino acids to create one particular protein is
roughly equal to (1/20) raised to the power Na. This corresponds to
f1 = (1/10)x where x = 1.3Na. Actually, to the extent that some
amino acids may be replaced by others without affecting the
functionality of the protein, the above expression for f1 is a
lower limit. (We will allow for this later in this section.)
Yockey (p. 73) shows that instead of 20N for the value of 1/f1, a
more accurate estimate is 2NH where H is the mean value of a
quantity known as the Shannon entropy of the 20-acid set (see
below). In the limit where all amino acids have equal probability
of being encoded, and are equally probable at all sites in the
protein, 2NH turns out (from the definition of H) to be equal to
20N . In all other cases, 2NH is less than 20N. This returns us to
the previous conclusion: the above expression for f1 is a lower
limit on the true value.
Suppose that the particular protein with probability f1 has been
formed in a particular patch of the primeval soup. Then in order
to form a single cell (with at least 12 proteins as a bare minimum
to function), eleven more proteins must also be formed in the same
patch of soup, in close enough proximity to one another to be
contained within a single membrane. Each of these proteins also
has a certain number of amino acids: for simplicity let us assume
that all have length Na.
The overall probability f12 that all twelve proteins arise as a
result of random processes is the product of the probability for
the twelve separate proteins. That is, f12 is roughly equal to f1
12,
i.e. f12 is roughly (1/10)y where y = 15.6Na.
We can now quantify the claim that the first cell was assembled by
random processes. If the first cell consisted of only the bare
minimum 12 proteins, and if each of these proteins was uniquely
suited to its own task, the probability that these particular 12
proteins will be formed by random processes in a given patch of
primeval soup is f12.
Now let us turn to the fact that a protein may remain functional
even if a certain amino acid is replaced with another one.
(Obviously, we are not referring to invariant sites here.) For
example, it may be that the protein which we have specified as the
one that is responsible for (say) energy generation in the cell is
21
not unique. There may exist other groupings of amino acids which
also have the shape and properties that enable the task of energy
production for the cell. Maybe the others are not as efficient as
the first one, but let us suppose that they have enough efficiency
to be considered as possible candidates for energy production in
the first cell. Then we need to ask: how many energy-producing
proteins might there be in the primeval soup?
It is difficult to tell: in principle, if Na has the value 14
(say), then one could examine the molecular structure of all 14-
amino acid proteins (of which there are some 2014 , i.e. 1018.2 if
all amino acids are equally probable) and identify which ones
would be suitable for performing the energy task. Presumably there
must be some specificity to the task of energy production:
otherwise, a protein which is supposed to perform the task of
(say) waste removal might suddenly start to perform the task of
(say) membrane production in the wrong part of the cell.
Therefore, it is essential for stable life-forms that not all
available proteins can perform all of the individual tasks.
Suppose the number of alternate energy-producers Q is written as
10q. In a world where all proteins have Na = 14, the absolute
maximum value that q can have is qmax = 18.2. This is the total
number of discrete locations in the “14-amino acid phase space”.
In the real world, a more realistic estimate of qmax would be
smaller than the above estimate. First, not all amino acids have
equal probability of being encoded: there are more codons in the
modern genetic code for some amino acids than for others. (E.g.,
Leu, Val, and Ser have 6 codons each, whereas 10 others have only
2 codons each.) When these are allowed for in the probability
distribution, it is found that the “effective number” of amino
acids in the modern world is not 20 but 17.621 (Yockey, p. 258).
Thus, with Na = 14, a more accurate estimate of qmax(eff) is 17.4
(rather than 18.2).
As a result, in the real world, qmax(eff) may be considerably
smaller than 18.2. However, in the spirit of optimizing
probabilities, let us continue to use the value 18.2.
The requirement that some specificity of task persists among
proteins requires that the value of q must certainly not exceed
qmax. At the other extreme, in a situation where each protein is
uniquely specified, q would have the value qmin = 0 (so that one
and only one protein could perform the task of energy production).
22
Now we can see that our estimate of f12 needs to be altered. We
were too pessimistic in estimating f12 above. Each factor f1 needs
to be multiplied by 10q. For simplicity, let us assume that q has
the same value for each of the 12 proteins in the cell. Then the
revised value of f12 is 1/10z where
z = 15.6Na - 12q . (eq. 1)
This result applies to a cell with 12 proteins, each composed of
amino acids chosen from a set of 20 distinct entries.
10. Random formation of DNA/RNA

The first cell could NOT have functioned if it consisted only of
proteins. In order to merit the description living, the cell must
also have had the ability to reproduce. That is, it must also have
had the correct DNA to allow all 12 proteins to be reproduced by
the cell.
In order to estimate the probability of assembling a piece of DNA
by random processes, we can follow the same argument as for
proteins, except that now we must pick from the available set of 4
bases.
Repeating the arguments given above, we see that for each protein
which contains Na amino acids in a certain sequence (plus one start
and one stop), there must exist in the DNA a strip of B = 3Na+6
bases in a corresponding sequence. If we pick bases at random from
a set of 4 possibilities, the probability of selecting the correct
sequence for a particular protein is (1/4)B. Therefore, the
probability of selecting the correct sequences for all twelve
proteins, if each protein is unique, is (1/4)D where D = 36Na + 72.
Writing this with the symbol fRNA, we see that fRNA is equal to
(1/10)E where
E = 21.7Na + 43.3. (eq. 2)
Again, however, if instead of unique proteins for each task, there
are 10q proteins available to perform each task in the cell, then
we must increase the above value of fRNA to 10-G where
G = 21.7Na + 43.3 - 12q. (eq. 3)



23
11. Probability of random formation of a complete cell
Since both the RNA and all 12 proteins have to be formed in the
same patch of primeval soup in order to form a viable cell, the
probability fcell that random processes will perform both tasks in
the same patch of soup will be the combination of the separate
probabilities. That is, fcell is roughly equal to fp X fRNA, i.e.
about 10-J where
J = 37.3Na + 43.3 - 24q. (eq. 4)
Therefore, once enough time elapsed in the primeval soup to
allow the chemicals there to undergo a certain number of
reactions, R12p = 1/fcell, there would be a high probability (in
fact, a near certainty) that the proteins and the requisite DNA
for a (12-14) cell could indeed have been assembled by chance in
the primeval soup.
In order to optimize the chances of forming the first cell, we
ask: is it possible to find ways to make R12p smaller than the
above estimate? The answer depends on the theory that one adopts
for the development of the first cell.
Suppose one were to theorize that the only thing one would have to
provide to get the first cell going was the RNA containing the
genetic code for the 12 proteins. (It might be beneficial if the
RNA could catalyze its own replication: however, this is not
altogether desirable, since it leads to possibilities of ‘‘errorcatastrophes
” [Niesert et al. 1987, J. Mol. Evol., 17, 348].)
According to the "RNA-first theory", one would not have to "wait
around" for proteins to be constructed by random reactions in the
primeval soup. Instead, once strips of RNA were formed (as a
result of random processes), DNA could be assembled from the RNA
strips. At that point, proteins should be reproduced more or less
automatically, apart from the necessity of certain enzymes
(proteins) to catalyze the "unzipping" of the DNA itself, and to
catalyze the collection and assemblage of the amino acids.
In order to optimize the chances of cell formation at random, let
us assume that the unzipping can be done with the help of a single
protein, and that the collection and assemblage of amino acids can
also be done with a single protein. (This is a far cry from the
modern world, where multiple proteins exist in even the simplest
cell to perform each task.) Then the first cell will require the
RNA to be assembled by chance (with probability fRNA, as given
above) plus just two proteins (with probability f2) also assembled
24
by chance. If this theory is correct, then R12p(RNA-first) would be
equal to 10K where
K = 24.3Na + 43.3 – 14q. (eq. 5)
This may provide a substantial reduction below the original
estimate of R12p.
Should we also consider the obvious alternative to the RNA-first
theory? That is, should we also consider the “protein-first”
theory? The answer is no, provided that the modern genetic code is
at work. The structure of the modern genetic code is such that,
according to the Central Dogma, proteins do not pass on
information to DNA: the flow of information goes only from DNA (or
RNA) to protein, and not the reverse. As Yockey (2000) puts it,
“The origin of life [as we currently know it] cannot be based on
‘protein-first’.” However, the “protein-first” theory may need to
be considered when we consider a certain “window of opportunity”
in the early Earth (see Section 19).
Because we now know how many reactions are required in order to
create the first simplest possible cell, we are in a position to
test the evolutionary claim that the first cell was assembled
randomly. To do this, we proceed to the crucial question that is
at the heart of the present argument. This question, and its
detailed answer, is the subject of the next section.

12. How many reactions occurred in the primeval soup?

Is random assembly of the first cell possible? To address this, we
need to answer the following question: How many chemical reactions
(of the sort we are interested in) actually occurred in the
primeval soup during the first 1.11 billion years?
We will not be surprised to find that the number of reactions nr
is a "large" number (in some sense). Nevertheless, nr is a finite
number.
Once we obtain nr, we can then estimate how large the value of q
must be in order that the probability of randomly assembling the
first cell of order unity. That is, we will equate nr to 10J (or to
10K, if we accept the "RNA-first theory"), and solve for q,
assuming that Na is at least as large as 14. The value of q which
we obtain from this estimate will be labelled qra to denote that
this is how large q must be in order that random assembly of the
first cell in the primeval soup becomes essentially certain.
25
We are interested in chemical reactions involving amino acids or
bases. To proceed with this discussion, we need to consider in
detail what happens during such a reaction. The most basic
requirement of a chemical reaction is the following: the two
reacting molecules must at the very least come close enough to
each other to have a collision. However, the very fact that two
molecules collide does not guarantee that a reaction will occur.
The reaction is controlled by many factors, e.g. the energy
involved, the angle of the encounter, the removal of by-products,
etc. As a result of these factors, many collisions may occur
before even a single reaction occurs. This explains why it is so
difficult to manufacture (e.g.) nylon: the creation of the peptide
bonds that hold nylon together (exactly equivalent to those which
hold proteins together) requires careful quality control. The
quality control which the DuPont engineers are forced to impose in
order to create nylon was certainly not available in the primeval
soup: therefore, the efficiency of the reactions which led to
peptide bonds (i.e. proteins) in the primeval soup was almost
certainly very small.
In view of this, we can derive an absolutely firm (and probably
very generous) upper limit on the number of two-body reactions n2
that occurred between two amino acids during any time interval by
calculating the number of collisions ncoll that occurred between
those two amino acids during that interval. In practice, n2 is
probably orders of magnitude smaller than ncoll. The purpose of a
catalyst is of course to increase n2 as much as possible: however,
even with a “perfect” catalyst, n2 can never exceed ncoll .
So let us turn to estimating ncoll. This number, which is “large”
but finite, will provide us with a firm piece of quantitative
evidence that will allow us to test the assertion that the first
cell was assembled randomly.



13. Collisions between amino acids in the primeval soup
We begin the calculation of ncoll by estimating the mean time tc
that elapses between successive collisions of molecule A with
molecule B. The general formula for tc is straight-forward. Let us
consider molecule A as the projectile, and molecule B as the
target. If projectile A moves with mean speed v cm/sec through an
ambient medium where there are nt target molecules per cubic
26
centimeter, then tc equals 1/(v nt A) seconds. Here, A is the area
(in square centimeters) presented by the target molecule.
13.1 Mean time interval between collisions
Let us now estimate the three quantities that enter into tc.
First, the area A. Amino acids and bases in nature have linear
dimensions of a few Angstroms (where 1 Angstrom = 10-8 cm).
Therefore, a typical amino acid or base molecule has A equal to
about 10-15 sq. cm.
Second, as regards v, there is a standard formula for the mean
speed of the molecules in a medium at temperature T: v2 = RgT/m
where Rg is the gas constant (= 8.3 X 107 ergs/degree/gram) and m
is the molecular weight. Amino acids and bases have m = 100 or so.
Moreover, living cells require liquid water in order to survive:
this means that T must be in the range 273-373 degrees Kelvin.
Taking an average value for T of about 300 K, we find that v for
the molecules in which we are interested here is about 104 cm/sec.
Even if we consider the extremely hot conditions at the ocean
bottom, near the hot thermal vents, where temperatures may be as
large as 1000 K, this will increase our estimate of v by a factor
of no more than 2. This will have no significant effect on our
conclusions below.
Third, as regards nt, we note that at the present time, the total
mass of living organisms on Earth is Mliving = 3.6 X 1017 grams (see
http://www.ursa.fi/mpi/earth/index.html). In the early Earth,
before the first cell appeared, the mass of living material was by
definition zero. But there were amino acids and bases present in
the primeval soup. So in order to optimize the chances of cell
formation, let us make a second gross assumption: let us assume
that all of the mass that is now in living organisms was already
present in the primeval soup in the form of amino acids (if we
wish to assemble proteins) or bases (if we wish to assemble RNA).
With a molecular weight of about 100, each amino acid (or base)
has a mass maa of about 1.7 10-22 grams. Therefore, the total number
ntotal of amino acids (or bases) in the primeval soup was of order
Mliving/maa. With this assumption, we find ntotal = 2 X 1039.
Naturally, this estimate is quite uncertain. Other estimates of
this number are larger. E.g. Bar-Nun and Shaviv (Icarus 24, 197,
1975) estimate 5.4 X 1041, while Shklovskii and Sagan (1966
Intelligent Life in the Universe) estimated 1044. We shall see
that our results are only slightly affected by these
uncertainties.
27
Finally, to derive nt in the primeval soup, we need to divide ntotal
by the volume of the material where living material existed on the
early Earth. In the present Earth, the volume of the biosphere is
of order 1019-20 cubic cm. However, life probably started in
particular locations, and so the relevant volume of the primeval
soup was probably much smaller. Let us suppose that the early
Earth had a biosphere with a volume that was 10-100 times smaller
than it is at present. (This putative decrease in volume will help
to speed up reactions.) That is, let us suppose that all of the
amino acids which now are present in living matter on Earth were
concentrated in the primeval soup into a favored volume of only
1018 cubic cm. Combining this with our estimate of ntotal, we see
that the mean density of amino acids in the favored volume of the
primeval soup nt could have been about 2 X 1021 per cubic cm.
Is this a reasonable value? To answer this, we note that this
value of nt corresponds to a mean mass density of 0.34 gram/cubic
cm for the amino acids in the primeval soup. This density is very
high (the molar concentration is about 0.1): it is questionable
whether such a high density of amino acids could ever have been
dissolved in water. This estimate of mass density is certainly
close to the upper limit possible: it could hardly have been any
higher. In order to remain dissolved in water (with mean density 1
gram/cubic cm), the mass density of amino acids can certainly not
exceed the density of water. Therefore, our estimate of the upper
limit on nt is not unreasonable as we try to optimize the chances
of randomly assembling a cell. (If we were to use Bar-Nun and
Shaviv’s estimate of the total number of amino acids, we would
need to dilute them by dissolving them in at least 100 times more
volume than we used above in order to keep the mean density less
than that of water. With Shklovskii and Sagan’s estimate, the
volume must be larger still by a further factor of 200.) The
actual value of nt in the primeval soup was probably orders of
magnitude less than the estimate given above. Maximum molar
concentrations of amino acids in the primeval soup have been
estimated to be as low as 10-7 or 10-8 (Hulett 1969 J. Theor. Biol.
24 56; Dose, 1975, Biosystems 6, 224). Thus, our estimates of nt
are probably too large by 6 or 7 orders of magnitude. However, in
the spirit of optimizing the chances of making a cell, let us use
the above upper limit as the value of nt.
Now we have all of the ingredients we need to calculate tc, the
mean time between collisions in the primeval soup. We find tc = 5 X
10-11 seconds.
13.2. Number of collisions by a single amino acid in 1.11 b.y.
28
Now that we know the mean interval between collisions, we see that
in the primeval soup, a given amino acid experienced 2 X 1010
collisions every second as an upper limit. Therefore, each amino
acid experienced no more than 2 X 1010 reactions every second with
other amino acids.
How many collisions did an amino acid experience in the primeval
soup in the course of a time interval of 1.11 billion years, i.e.
in the 3.5 X 1016 seconds before the first cell appeared on Earth?
The answer is straightforward. Multiplying the above reaction rate
by the number of seconds available, we find that each amino acid
in the primeval soup experienced at most nr(1) = 7 X 1026 reactions
with other amino acids before the first cell appeared on Earth.
13.3. Total number of collisions between amino acids in 1.11 b.y.

Finally, we ask: what was the total number of reactions between
amino acids that occurred in the primeval soup before the first
cell appeared? The answer is again straightforward: since each
amino acid experienced nr(1) in that time, and since there were
ntotal amino acids in the primeval soup, the total number of
reactions nr between amino acids was about 1065 before the first
cell appeared.
This is a "large" number. But it is finite.
Moreover, we have artificially forced nr to be as large as possible
by making four extreme assumptions. (i) Every collision produces a
peptide-bonding reaction. (ii) The mass of pre-biotic material was
as large in the primeval soup as it is in today’s biomass. (iii)
The entire biomass in the primeval soup was in the form of amino
acids (or bases). (iv) All amino acids were concentrated in pools
where their mass density could build up to the maximum permissible
value. In the real primeval soup, conditions might have been such
that any or all of these assumptions could have failed by several
orders of magnitude. (In particular, (iv) almost certainly failed
by 6-7 orders of magnitude, and (i) almost certainly failed by
several orders of magnitude because of reaction kinetics.)
Therefore, it is highly likely that the actual total number of
collisions which occurred in the primeval soup before the first
cell appeared could have been 10 or more orders of magnitude less
than 1065.
Of course, our estimates refer to our estimates of the biomass
only, and also to binary collisions only. If we were to use the
estimates of Bar-Nun and Shaviv or of Shlokskii and Sagan, the
number densities per unit volume nt cannot exceed the value we have
29
already used above. Therefore, there will be no change in the
number of collisions per second. But the total number of
collisions would increase by 2-5 orders of magnitude above our
estimate.
For the sake of argument, let us assume that these other processes
compensated for orders of magnitude deficits associated with the
extreme assumptions (i)-(iv) above. That is, we will assume in
what follows that nr was indeed of order 1065. This appears to be a
very generous estimate of the total number of reactions in the
primeval soup.


14. Random production of the first cell
We are now in a position to estimate probabilities for randomly
assembling the first cell.
Let us return to our estimate of the number of reactions that were
necessary to create the first cell by random processes. In order
to create a cell containing 12 proteins with chains of N = Na amino
acids each, we recall that R12p was required to be 10J (where J is
given in eq. (4) above) if proteins and RNA were both assembled at
random.
However, if we accept the "RNA-first theory", we recall that the
number of reactions R12p(RNA-first) was "only" 10K (where K is given
in eq. (5) above).
Now that we know how many reactions actually did occur in the
primeval soup before the first cell appeared, we can equate nr
to the above values of R12p in order to determine how large qra must
have been in order to have reasonable probability of assembling
the first cell at random.
Setting R12p equal to nr, we find that the value of qra required for
random assembly of the first cell must satisfy the equation
37.3Na +43.3 -24qra = 65 (eq. 6)
if proteins and RNA were assembled together. On the other hand, if
we accept the RNA-first theory, then we find
24.3Na +43.3 -14q(RNA)ra = 65. (eq. 7)
30
As mentioned above, the value of Na is no less than 14. Inserting
Na = 14 in eq. (6) and (7) leads to qra = 20.8 or q(RNA)ra = 22.8.
The numerical value of qra increases linearly with the value of Na,
increasing by 1.7 for each unit increase in Na. However, qra is not
sensitive to the number of proteins in the cell. Moreover, qra is
not sensitive to errors in our estimates of the number of
collisions in the primeval soup: even if our estimated number of
collisions is wrong by factors of (say) one million times too
large or too small, our estimates of qra would change by only plus
or minus 0.4.
The above estimates of qra emerge from the two basic points of our
argument: (i) a finite time was available for chemical reactions
to operate, and (ii) a cell cannot function as a truly living
organism with less than the bare minimum of 12 proteins.
However, as we saw in Section 9 above, the total number of all
available proteins in the Na = 14 world is such that q has
certainly a maximum value qmax = 18.2. (The actual maximum would be
smaller than this for the reasons discussed in Section 9 above,
but let us continue to optimize the case for random assembly and
retain qmax = 18.2.) We see that the value of qra that is required
to ensure random assembly of the first cell is larger than qmax.
However, it is formally impossible for q to have a value in excess
of qmax: qra cannot exceed qmax even in optimal conditions. If qra is
equal to, or larger than, qmax it implies that every available
protein in the primeval soup must have been capable of performing
the task of every other protein. This indicates a serious lack of
specificity of tasks in the cell.
This conclusion does not depend sensitively on the choice of Na. If
functioning proteins actually require Na to be as large as (say) 20
(such as the mini-proteins referred to by Maniloff), we would find
q(RNA)ra = 33. However, the total number of proteins in an Na = 20
world would be of order 2020 , i.e. qmax = 26. The value of q(RNA)ra
again exceeds qmax, and so the conclusion about non-specificity
still applies.

15. Do proteins in the primeval soup have specific tasks?

The result that qra has a value in excess of qmax has significant
implications. It implies that there are no distinguishing
properties between proteins: each protein would have had the
31
ability to perform the task of all the other functional proteins
in the first cell. If that were to be the case, then there would
be no way to regulate the various distinct groups of cell
operations: replication could occur in the membrane, or membrane
generation could occur in the energy generation sites.
However, the nature of a cell requires that proteins have clearly
defined and distinctly specific functions. That is, not all
proteins must be capable of (say) membrane production: only a
fraction F (<1) of the proteins must have this capability.
What is a likely value for F? At one extreme, the smallest value F
can have is Fmin = 1/Qmax. Writing F = 10-f, this means that the
maximum possible value of f is fmax = qmax. In this limit, protein
specificity would be maximized: there would then be one and only
one protein out of the Qmax distinct proteins which could perform
any one of the basic tasks of the cell. In such a case, all 14
amino acids in each protein would be an invariant site, forbidding
any substitutions.
This extreme specificity is not true of most modern proteins:
typically, only a subset of sites are invariant. E.g., Yockey
(Table 6.3) discusses a 110-acid protein in which only 14 sites
are invariant. At the remaining 96 sites, a number of other amino
acids (from 2 to 19) may be substituted without degrading
significantly the functioning of the protein. The amino acids
which are functionally acceptable at a site are those which do not
impede the folding process or the biochemical requirements of the
protein. Because of these possibilities for substitution, the
probability of randomly “finding” a functional protein in “aminoacid
phase space” may be much improved over what one might expect
on the basis of the value of Qmax alone. Yockey (p. 254) describes
in detail how to compute the probability factor 2HN when one knows
how many different amino acids can be substituted at each site.
For the 110-acid protein discussed by Yockey, the improvement in
probability is enormous (from 1 in 10137 to 1 in 1093). It is not
clear how much improvement will occur in a small protein, where
there are only 14 amino acids. For the latter, the phase space is
limited to 1018.2. The 3-dimensional folding of such a small protein
might be quite sensitive to amino acid substitutions, more so than
for a larger protein. If this is true, then the improvement factor
might be quite small.
At the opposite extreme, F can certainly not exceed Fmax = 1/12 if
we are to preserve the distinction of 12 separate proteins for
each of the cell’s tasks. The limit F = 1/12 represents the
32
minimum possible protein specificity. This means that f cannot
have a value less than 1.08 in a cell with Np = 12 proteins.
In fact, it is probable that F is much smaller than 1/12. If F
were as large as 1/12, the prognosis for cell survival would be
slim: a single point mutation could convert (say) a membraneproducer
in any particular cell into (say) a waste management
protein. If this were to happen, the cell and its progeny could
hardly expect to survive for long.
This suggests that, in order to ensure long life for the cell, the
value of F should be much smaller than 1/12. How small might F be?
Let us introduce a “protein specificity index” m such that
F=(1/12)m, i.e. f = 1.08m. With this definition, the minimum value
that m can have is mmin = 1 (the minimum permissible specificity).
Values of m in the range (say) m = 3-4 represent conditions where
protein functions are only marginally specific. The maximum value
that m can have is mmax = qmax/1.08: in the example given above where
qmax = 18.2, mmax would have a value of about 16.9. In the limit m =
mmax, every protein performs a unique task.
With this well-defined range of the m parameter, we may usefully
refer to an “average specificity index” mav = (mmin + mmax)/2. With
the values just cited, we find mav is about 9. High specificities
can be considered as those with m values in excess of mav. Low
specificities are those with m values less than mav.

16. What are the chances of creating the first functioning cell
randomly?
The fact that the factor F departs from unity has the effect that
the Q factor which we used above in estimating the probability of
random formation of the first cell must be replaced by the product
FQmax. The quantity q in our earlier estimates must be replaced by
qmax-f where f cannot be less than 1.08.
In view of this, if we adopt the “RNA-first” theory, the necessary
number of reactions for random assembly of the first cell is 10L
where
L = 24.3Na + 43.3 –14(qmax - f). (eq. 8)
Setting Na = 14, the chance Pr of random assembly of the first cell
in the first 1.11 billion years of Earth’s existence (during which
time there were at most 1065 reactions) is one in 10b where
b = 14(f - qmax + qra ). (eq. 9)
33
With f=1.08m, and qra – qmax = 4.6, the chance Pr is about one in
1015m+64.4. Since m cannot be less than 1, Pr is certainly less than
one in 1079. If m takes on its average value mav = 9, Pr decreases
to 1 in 10200. Even if m takes on values that are much smaller than
mav (say 2-3), the probability Pr amounts to only one in 1094-109.
Note that the exponent b increases rapidly as Na increases: both
qra and qmax are proportional to Na. As a result, if we increase Na
to (say) 21, we would find that qra – qmax would increase from 4.6
to 6.9. Then even with m = 1 (its lowest value), exponent b
exceeds 100.
Even if we were to allow for a much older Earth, with an age of
(say) 100 billion years, the number 65 in our formula for qra would
increase only to 67. This would lead to a reduction of only 0.14
in qra in the “RNA-first scenario”. This would increase the chance
of random cell assembly, but even in the best possible case (m=1),
Pr would still be no better than one part in 1077.
The result Pr < 10-79 applies to a cell consisting of only the
absolute minimum set of Np = 12 proteins. Such a cell is extremely
small compared to the smallest known cell in the modern world
(where Np = 250). What if the minimum number of proteins in a
functional cell is 30 or 50 or 100? In such cases, the requirement
of specificity of protein function has the effect that the factor
F must be smaller than 1/Np , i.e. the exponent f must exceed
log(Np). In terms of the protein specificity index m,
f = m log(Np), (eq. 10)
where m cannot be less than 1. In view of this, the probability of
random assembly of the first cell is one in 10b where
b = (Np+2)[mlog(Np) – qmax + qra ]. (eq. 11)
Therefore, if the first cell required (say) 30 proteins to become
operational, the chance of assembling its RNA at random in the
primeval soup after 1065 collisions is less than one in 1047m+147.
The exponent in this result rapidly becomes large even if we allow
for only marginal specificity. For example, if m has a value of 2,
Pr is less than one in 10240. And if m is set equal to its average
value mav = 9, Pr falls to less than one in 10570.
If the modern genetic code was operative in the first primitive
cell (much smaller than the smallest cell in today’s world), the
above numbers are mathematical statements of the chances that the
34
RNA for the first cell was assembled by random processes. It is
clear that the probabilities are extremely small. We stress that
we have optimized a number of parameters in estimating the above
probabilities.

17. What about doublet-codons?

We can improve the situation for random assembly of the first cell
by considering the following possibility: suppose that, by some
means, the proteins in the first cell were assembled from a
smaller set of distinct amino acids than the Naa = 20 which exist
in nature today.
To be specific, let us suppose that the number of distinct amino
acids which were used in the first cell was as small as Naa = 5. It
is not obvious that functional proteins could actually exist with
such a small “vocabulary” of amino acids. However, it has been
claimed that protein folding is possible with as few as 5 distinct
amino acids (Riddle et al. 1997). Therefore, consideration of this
case probably does not violate any of the constraints of physical
chemistry. It also does not violate any of the limitations of
information theory: the quaternary genetic code might have begun
as a “first extension” using doublet codons (Yockey, p. 188).
(Vestiges of this early code might still exist in modern
mitochondria.) Doublet codons might have encoded for as few as 4-5
proteins (see Yockey, Table 7.1).
The major change in our calculation in this case is that the
codons in the RNA would no longer need to consist of triplets of
bases. Assuming that there are still 4 bases to use for RNA
coding, doublets would suffice to provide unique encoding for all
5 amino acids (plus a start and a stop code). Of course, one might
suspect that in a world where the number of useful amino acids has
been reduced from 20 to 5, there might also be a reduction in the
number of useful bases. For example, if there were only 2 useful
bases (i.e. if the genetic code were ever binary consisting of one
purine and one pyrimidine, a possibility discussed by Yockey (p.
184), then triplet codons would still be needed even to encode for
Naa = 5. In this case, we would return to the estimates derived
above for the triplet codon world. If there were 3 useful bases
available, doublet codons would suffice to encode for up to Naa = 7
(plus a start and stop code).
However, to optimize chances for random assembly, let us assume
that all 4 of the modern bases are available so that we can
exploit the possibility of doublet codons for the case Naa = 5.
35
In this case, the probability of assembling the RNA for a cell
consisting of 12 proteins, each with Na amino acids, would be fRNA =
(1/10)M where
M = 14.4Na +28.9 – 12q. (eq. 12)
We still need two proteins to allow DNA to do its work: with only
5 different amino acids to choose from, the chances of assembling
these two proteins at random are (1/5)P X 10-2q where P = 2Na.
Therefore fRNA in the 2-codon world would be equal to (1/10)R where
R = 15.8Na + 28.9 – 14q. (eq. 13)
In order that RNA for the first doublet-codon cell could have been
assembled at random in the first 1.11 billion years of Earth’s
existence, we must satisfy the equation
15.8Na +28.9 –14qd = 65 (eq. 14)
where subscript d denotes that we are dealing with doublet codons.
What is the minimum size of a protein in a world with Naa = 5? In
our previous discussion of our modern world where Naa = 20, we have
argued that proteins with Na = 14 are the smallest functional
units. Does this argument remain valid when Naa is reduced to a
value as small as 5? The answer is not obvious. For lack of
alternatives, we will assume that Na cannot be less than 14 in a
functional protein in the Naa = 5 world.
With this assumption, we find that qd cannot be less than 13.2.
This is many orders of magnitude smaller than the value of qra
which is required in the three-codon world. At first sight, this
might appear to represent a large increase in protein specificity.
However, results from the three-codon world are not relevant here.
Instead, we need to compare the new estimate of qd with the total
number of distinct proteins that are possible in the primeval
soup. With 5 distinct amino acids in the soup, and with each
protein containing 14 amino acids, we see that there are some 514
distinct possible proteins. Therefore, in this case, Qmax = 109.8 ,
i.e. qmax = 9.8. In view of the requirement that Q be at least as
large as 109.8, we see that the qd required for random assembly of
the RNA for the first cell again exceeds its maximum permissible
value, this time by 3.4. That is, once again essentially all
proteins are required to perform the task of all other proteins.
We are faced once again with the problem of lack of protein
specificity.
36
To satisfy the demands of specificity, we again introduce the
fraction F = 10-f of all available proteins which are able to
perform the task of (say) energy production. As before, we write f
= m log(Np) where m lies between 1 and qmax/log(Np). (With the above
numbers, mmax = 9.1, and the average specificity mav takes on a
value of about 5.) In view of this, we see that the probability of
assembling RNA for the first cell by chance in the 2-codon world
becomes one in 10c where
c = (Np+2)[mlog(Np) – qmax + qd ]. (eq. 15)
Since the difference qd - qmax is now “only” 3.4 (as opposed to 4.6
for the 3-codon case), we see that the probability of random
assembly of the RNA for a (12-14) cell has increased in the 2-
codon case by at least 16-17 in the exponent. This is a great
improvement indeed relative to the 3-codon case.
However, even with absolutely marginal specificity of protein
tasks, i.e. m = 1, the probability Pr of assembling RNA randomly in
the primeval soup for a (12-14) cell which uses only Naa = 5
distinct amino acids is no better than one in about 1063. If the
specificity has its average value mav = 5, then Pr = 10-123. Even if
the value of m is much smaller than mav (say m = 2-3), and with
more realistic numbers of proteins in the cell (say Np = 30), the
chances of randomly assembling the RNA for the first cell in the
primeval soup using doublet codons is no better than one in 10200.

18. What about singlet codons?

We might (in principle) improve the chances of randomly assembling
the first cell if the genetic code were able to operate with
singlet codons (instead of doublets or triplets). However, it
seems unlikely that such a world can exist. It is known that
folding of a protein simply cannot be achieved using an amino acid
set that is as small as 3 (Riddle et al. 1997): on the other hand,
folding can be achieved if the set of amino acids is as large as
5. For the sake of argument, let us make the extreme assumption
that folding CAN occur with an amino acid set consisting of only 4
species in the primeval soup. In this case, a singlet codon (one
of the four bases for each amino acid) would in principle suffice
for the RNA to encode for the amino acids, although with zero
redundancy (and therefore no error protection).
37
However, in order to assemble an accompanying DNA molecule, we
also need to have start and stop codons. That is, we must encode
not merely for the 4 amino acids, but also for the start/stop
codons. This means that the DNA is required to encode for at least
6 elements. This cannot be done with singlet codons (if only four
bases are available.)
We conclude that the doublet-codon world is as simple as we can go
and still have access to the flexibility of the genetic code.


19. A window of opportunity

When we considered what was probably the simplest example of a
doublet-codon world, with Naa = 5, we found that random assembly of
the first cell turned out to be more probable than in the triplet
codon case with Naa = 20. But still, the probability Pr is very
small.
However, this is not the only example we might consider. Doublet
codons with 4 useful bases can in principle encode for a
“vocabulary” of proteins made with Naa in the range from 5 to 14
(allowing for start and stop codes). And if proteins still consist
of Na = 14 amino acids, then the maximum available number of
proteins Qmax increases from 514 to 1414 as Naa increases from 5 to
14. That is, qmax increases from 9.8 to 16.0. The corresponding
values of mmax in a 12-protein cell are 9.1-14.8 (with mav = 5.05-
7.9).
Returning to the expression we obtained for the probability Pr of
random assembly of RNA for the first cell in a doublet codon
world, 1 in 10c, we recall from eq. (15) that
c = (Np+2)[m log(Np) + qd – qmax]
where qd = 13.2 (for proteins with 14 amino acids each) and m has a
value of at least 1. Inserting qmax values in the range from 9.8 to
16.0, we see that the difference qd-qmax is no longer in all cases
positive definite. In fact, when Naa grows to a value as large as
9, the value of qd-qmax becomes for the first time negative (-0.2).
This will certainly improve the probability of random assembly.
However, if we insert numerical values, and set the specificity to
its average value (mav = 7.2), we find that in a (12-14) cell, the
value of the exponent c for the case Naa = 9 becomes 106. If we
allow the protein specificity to fall to a very small value, say m
= 2, then c becomes 28. That is, the probability that the RNA of
38
the first cell with Naa = 9 was assembled by chance in the first
billion years of the primeval soup might be as large as 1 in 1028.
These represent large improvements over the probabilities we have
considered above.
Moving on to even larger values of Naa, the formal probabilities of
random RNA assembly become even larger. In fact, with Naa = 11, the
probability Pr approaches unity if m has a value less than
1.4/log(Np). Thus, in a (12-14) cell, a value of m less than 1.3
would ensure that Pr could have a value of order unity if Naa = 11.
Such a cell could have had its RNA assembled randomly with high
probability in the primeval soup in an interval of 1.11 billion
years.
In the limiting case Naa = 14 in the doublet codon world, a (12-14)
cell could be assembled randomly with high probability (in fact,
with near certainty) in 1.11 billion years as long as mlog(Np) does
not exceed the numerical difference between qmax and qd (i.e. 16.0-
13.2 = 2.8), i.e. as long as m does not exceed 2.5. This
represents the widest opening of the window of opportunity for the
random assembly of the RNA for a (12-14) cell.
We note that a specificity of less than 2.5 is much smaller than
the average mav: for the case Naa = 14, mav has the value 7.9. If
the protein specificity index in the primeval soup was indeed as
large as the value mav, the probability Pr of assembling the first
(12-14) cell randomly in a doublet codon world is no more than one
in 1080.
The window of opportunity in the doublet-codon world has an
interesting property that is relevant to the modern world. For a
14-acid cell where the number of proteins is as large as in the
smallest known modern cell (Np = 250), the probability of random
assembly Pr could have approached unity as long as m is in the
range 1.0-1.17. This is a very restricted window: but it is a bona
fide window. It indicates that, provided all of the various
optimized conditions are satisfied, random assembly of a (250-14)
cell might have occurred with high probability in the young Earth
with Naa = 14.
However, the restricted window for the Np = 250 cell closes
altogether if we have overestimated by too much the number of
collisions in the primeval soup. As was mentioned in Section 13.3,
our choice of 1065 for the value of nr (the total number of
reactions experienced by bases or amino acids in the primeval
soup) may be too large by 10 or more orders of magnitude. If nr is
in fact equal to 1058 (or less), then qd increases to 13.7 (or
39
more). In this case, the probability Pr (= 1 chance in 10c) falls
far below unity even if m has its minimum possible value (m=1):
the exponent c takes on the value 24.7 (or more).
Values of m as small as 1.17 or 1.3 (or even 2.5) represent
marginal specificities; they are far below the average
specificities, and are close to the absolute minimum value of m
(=1). Whether living cells could in fact survive (and replicate
faithfully) in the present of such marginal specificities is not
known. At the very least, it is a cause for concern in the context
of cell robustness.
The above calculation suggests formally that random assembly of
the first cell could have been achieved in the primeval soup if
certain conditions were satisfied. The requirements are: (i) at
least 11 distinct amino acids were available for use in the making
of proteins; (ii) 4 distinct bases were available for the DNA;
(iii) the protein specificity index m did not exceed 2.5 (for a
cell with 12 proteins); (iv) the number of amino acids in the
polypeptide chain of each protein equals 14; (v) the total number
of reactions between bases or amino acids in the primeval soup was
1065 ; (vi) we accept the RNA-first theory of cell assembly.
If any of these conditions was violated in the young Earth, the
probability of random assembly quickly falls to very low values.


20. Entropy constraints on the window of opportunity
At this point in the argument, we need to ask: is the mathematical
scenario described in Section 19 relevant in a robust biological
world?
In order to address this, we need to consider a certain aspect of
coding theory (Yockey, p. 5). The Central Dogma of biology states
that DNA encodes for protein assembly but proteins do not encode
for DNA assembly. To ensure this, coding theory states that the
“vocabulary” at the source (e.g. DNA) must have significantly more
symbols than the “vocabulary” at the receiver (amino acids).
In the modern world, there is no problem with this requirement.
With 64 codons in the DNA, and only 20 amino acids in (most)
proteins, there is a large excess in the “mutual information
entropy” of DNA compared to amino acids. The maximum information
content of a DNA sequence is 5.931 bits per codon, whereas the
information content of an average protein sequence is 4.139 bits
per amino acid (Yockey, p. 175). (These numbers are close to the
40
definition of Shannon entropy for the source log2(64) and receiver
log2(20) respectively: the slight differences arise because not all
modern amino acids are encoded with equal probability.) The
difference dH between 5.931 and 4.139 (dH = 1.792 bits per codon)
is (in the language of coding theory) a measure of the difference
in Shannon entropy between source (DNA) and receiver (proteins).
(Shannon entropy has nothing to do with the Maxwell-Boltzmann-
Gibbs entropy of thermodynamics). Because of this difference in
entropy, DNA can communicate information to amino acids, whereas
amino acids cannot communicate information back to the DNA.
The large amount of redundancy (represented by the ratio of 64 to
20) in the modern DNA “vocabulary” relative to the amino acid
“vocabulary” allows for error checking in the course of cell
replication. With the proper use of redundancy, the channel
capacity theorem (Yockey, p. 115) indicates that the error rate in
a code can be kept below any specified level. This is essential
for cells to ensure reliable and consistent replication in the
course of many generations.
As one possible measure of the level of error protection in a
code, we may refer to some results obtained by Yockey (p. 73). It
turns out that in a protein with N amino acids, the number of
high-probability states N(h) in parameter space is 2NH where H is
the Shannon entropy per amino acid. In the event that all sites
have equal probability of occupation by each and all of the Naa
distinct amino acids, the value of N(h) becomes equal to Naa
N, as
expected from the probability arguments we have used in this
paper. In view of the formula for N(h), it seems reasonable to
use, as a measure of error protection in the translation from DNA
to proteins, the number E = 2NxdH. In the case of a modern protein
such as insulin (with N=51), E has a value of 3 x 1027, and we
interpret this to mean that insulin is extremely well protected in
the modern world from errors in transcription.
Now let us return to the doublet codon option in the primeval
soup. A world containing 14 distinct amino acids in the proteins
(plus one start and one stop code) would correspond to a doublet
code in which the source has 16 symbols but the receiver also
contains 16 symbols. In this situation, where dH = log2(16/16) = 0,
there is zero entropy difference between source and receiver. As a
result, E = 1, and the measure of error protection for (say)
insulin would be some 27 orders of magnitude smaller than it is in
the modern world. Replication of insulin in such a situation would
be subject to intolerable uncertainty.
41
Moreover, the Central Dogma of biology would break down: a protein
(such as insulin) would be able to control DNA just as much as DNA
controls proteins. This hardly seems like a prescription for hardy
life forms: there are too many options for lack of
reproducibility.
However, the break-down of the Central Dogma in the Naa = 14 world
suggests that in such a world, one might consider not only the
RNA-first theory, but also a “protein-first” theory. The numerical
factors entering into our estimates of the probability of random
assembly would then change. Thus, the value we have used above for
qd (=13.2) (obtained from eq. (14)) would have to be changed to a
value determined from a modification of the expression for z in
eq. (1). We recall that eq. (1) refers to the case where the set
of distinct proteinous amino acids contains 20 entries. Here, we
have only 14 entries in the set, and as a result, z changes to
13.8Na – 12q. Setting z equal to 65 and Na = 14, we find qd = 10.7.
The window of opportunity now widens somewhat: for the case Naa =
14, the value of Pr approaches unity as long as the specificity
index m does not exceed 4.9. This is still well below the average
value mav (= 7.9). Thus, we are still forced to confront the
requirement that protein specificities are quite small.
A doublet codon world, if it is to be of interest to biology in
the context of error-free replication, must certainly contain less
than 14 distinct amino acids. How much less than 14 should we
consider? We have seen that there is a good probability that RNA
can be assembled randomly as long as Naa has a value of 11 or more.
Including a start and a stop codon, this means that the genetic
code must use 16 symbols at the source to encode for 13 (or more)
amino acids. The difference in Shannon entropy between source and
receiver for this case is log2(16/13), i.e. dH = 0.3. With such a
value of dH, the error protection E of insulin would fall to 4 x
104, i.e. some 23 orders of magnitude weaker than the protection
which exists in the modern genetic code. And for the cases Naa = 12
and 13, the values of dH are 0.19 and 0.09 respectively. The
corresponding values of E for insulin would be 826 and 24, i.e. up
to 26 orders of magnitude less protection than in the modern
world.
Although it is sometimes claimed that error protection “must have
been” less in the early genetic codes than in the modern world,
this is not necessarily true. On the contrary, to ensure that
reliable replication occurs among millions of cells of even a
single species, it appears that the earliest genetic codes “must
have been nearly as accurate as those of today, otherwise even
short proteins could not have been transmitted in sufficient
42
numbers” (Yockey, p. 338). In other words, if the earliest genetic
codes were error prone, biology would not have been possible.
In order to ensure the same error protection between source and
receiver which exists in the modern world, there should be similar
redundancy to what exists in the modern world. That is, the ratio
of the number of codons in the DNA to the number of symbols in the
amino acids should be comparable to the modern value (64/20 =
3.2). This suggests that, at an epoch when there were 16 codons in
the DNA code (if there was indeed such a “doublet-codon epoch” in
the early Earth), the value of Naa should have been 5. This is
precisely the case we considered in the Doublet Codon section. The
Central Dogma would be just as robustly valid in such a world as
it is in today’s world. However, the chances of randomly
assembling such a cell is (as we have seen) only 1 in 1063.

21. Window of opportunity? or bottleneck?
There is a further constraint on the world of doublet codons in
which Naa lies in the range from 11 to 14. This has to do with how
well protected the genetic code is from noise-induced mutations.
Cullmann and Labouygues (1983, BioSystems 16, 9: hereafter C&L)
have discussed this issue in numerical detail.
In order to understand the results of C&L, a brief summary of
their terminology is necessary. In a doublet code, with 4 bases,
there are 16 possible codons. Of these, only a certain number (the
“sense codons”) are used to encode for proteinous amino acids. The
remainder are “non-sense codons” which serve to terminate the
translation. Mutations of various types can occur as a result of
noise. There is one class of mutations which causes a sense codon
to switch to a non-sense codon. In a second class of mutations, a
single mutation causes a sense codon to switch to another sense
codon. In the latter case, the protein may still function if there
are synonymous code entries. But if we dealing with an invariant
site, then the protein function is disabled, and C&L refer to a
“mis-sense” codon.
C&L have systematically analyzed all possible doublet codons in a
world where the number of amino acids being encoded varies from Naa
= 0 to 16 (thus including all numbers of interest to us here). In
each case, they count up how many single mutations N lead to nonsense
codons, and how many single mutations D(1) belong to
synonymous and mis-sense codons. C&L point out that the optimal
code (as far as immunization from noise is concerned) is one which
43
minimizes N and which simultaneously maximizes D(1). Codes which
have N not too far from its minimum value also possess significant
immunization against noise. C&L find that, starting with Naa = 0
and increasing Naa in steps of unity, there is at first a growing
number of doublet codes which satisfy the optimal condition.
In the present context, it is important to note that this growth
in available codes continues up to Naa = 8, at which point there
are thousands of codes which are not far from optimal. But for Naa
= 9 and larger, the number of available codes begins to diminish
rapidly. For Naa = 12, the number of codes has decreased to the
hundreds, and as Naa approaches 16, the numbers drop off towards a
value of 1. Thus, as a doublet-codon system attempts to encode for
more and more amino acids, there are less and less options the
closer Naa approaches 16.
Yockey (p. 190) refers to this as a “bottleneck” which has
evolutionary significance. He suggests that doublet codons might
have been successful in operating biology as long as Naa was
smaller than 16. But as more and more amino acids became available
for inclusion into proteins, and Naa eventually increased above 16,
it eventually became necessary to go to triplet codons. However,
before this happened, and as Naa increased upward through values of
9, 10,…16, the shrinking size of parameter space in which noiseimmunized
codes can exist would have exposed the organisms of that
time to an increasing lack of immunization against genetic noise.
Now, we recall that, in our discussion above, the probability of
randomly assembling the RNA for the initial (12-14) cell first
rises to large values when Naa is as large as 11. Using the results
of C&L, we now see that this value of Naa has a significant
property: it is already past the peak in available numbers of
doublet codes. Thus, we are already approaching the vicinity of
Yockey’s “bottleneck”. This makes it increasingly difficult for an
immunized genetic code to handle the large variety of proteins
which one might expect to find in a flourishing biosphere.

22. Overview on the window of opportunity
Let us now take an overall look at the window of opportunity in
the light of our discussions of the “bottleneck” (Section 21), the
entropy (Section 20), and the requisite marginal specificities of
proteins (Section 19). Taken in combination, these discussions
suggest that what appears as a window of opportunity for random
assembly of the first cell (in a formal mathematical sense) may be
44
subject to several classes of difficulties in the biological
context.
It is true that a scenario in which the doublet-codon window opens
up to its widest extent describes a system which is interesting
from a mathematical perspective. But from a biological
perspective, this system suffers from three serious drawbacks.
First, in the encoding process between DNA and proteins, error
protection is many orders of magnitude weaker than it is in modern
organisms. Second, the phase space of permissible genetic codes
shrinks to smaller and smaller volumes. Third, a huge number of
the available proteins must be able to perform each and every task
in the cell: the number is so large that there would have been
almost no specificity in protein tasks within a cell. That is,
there is a good chance that a protein which is supposed to be used
for (say) membrane repair, may switch to one whose function is
(say) enabling reproduction.
Any one of these features could be considered as posing
significant difficulties for cell survivability. The combination
of all three exacerbates the problem. It is difficult to see how a
cell (even of the primitive kind we consider here, no bigger than
a modern virus) could have survived. For the first robust cell to
have developed randomly in the doublet-codon phase of the
primitive Earth, conditions must have been “just right” to allow
survival in the presence of the above serious drawbacks.


23. Conclusion
We have numerically evaluated the probability Pr that, in the first
1.11 billion years of Earth’s existence, random processes were
successful in putting together the RNA for the first cell. In
estimating Pr, we initially assumed that the first cell follows the
rules which guide modern life-forms. That is, we assume there are
Naa = 20 distinct amino acids in proteins, and triplet codons in
the genetic code.
In calculating Pr, we consider only the random assembly of RNA: we
assume that once the RNA is present, it will generate the proteins
for the cell. (Thus, we are not requiring that the proteins be
assembled randomly: if we were to impose such a requirement, the
probabilities of random assembly of the first cell would be even
smaller than the results we obtain here.) Furthermore, we consider
45
a cell which is much smaller than those which exist in the modern
world. The latter contain at least 250 proteins. By contrast, we
have reduced the requirements of the first living cell to a bare
minimum: we assume that that cell was able to function with only
12 proteins. Compared to the smallest known living cell, our
choice of 12 proteins seems almost absurdly reductionist. Our
“cell” looks more like a modern virus (which cannot reproduce
itself) than a bona fide cell. But we proceed anyway.
Moreover we also assume that each protein consists of a chain of
no more than 14 amino acids. We refer to this as a (12-14) cell.
Again, a chain with only 14 amino acids is considerably shorter
than the smallest known protein in the modern world (which
contains a few dozen amino acids). It is not clear that a protein
with only 14 acids would be subject to the 3-dimensional folding
which is essential to protein functioning. Nevertheless, we make
these reductionist assumptions about a cell with the aim of
optimizing the probability of assembling the first cell.
In this spirit, we start with the assumption that the only amino
acids which existed in the primitive Earth were the 20 (or so)
distinct types of amino acids which occur in the proteins of
modern living cells. Also in the spirit of optimization, we assume
that the entire pre-biomass of the Earth was in the form of
proteinous amino acids. We specifically exclude the non-biological
amino acids (numbering more than one hundred) which may have been
produced in the primitive Earth. Moreover, we also assume that all
20 of the proteinous amino acids were present solely in the Lisomer
form so that the growth of a protein chain is not ended
prematurely by unintentional inclusion of a D-isomer. Furthermore,
we assume that the initial cell occurred in the physical
conditions which are most commonly cited in textbooks, i.e. in a
“primeval soup”. This allows us to obtain a firm (and generous)
upper limit on the number of chemical reactions which could have
occurred before the first cell appeared on Earth.
With all of these assumptions, we find that the probability of
assembling the RNA required for even the most primitive (12-14)
cell by random processes in the time available is no more than one
in 1079.
In order to improve on the probability that random processes
assembled the RNA for the first cell, we make the (unproven but
likely) assumption that proteins in the earliest cells were
constructed from a smaller set of distinct amino acids than those
which occur in modern cells. In order to ensure that the primitive
life forms had a similar level of error protection in their
46
genetic code as that which exists in the modern world, we consider
a case in which the early proteins consisted of only Naa = 5
distinct amino acids. For these, the genetic code can operate with
doublet codons. In such a world, the probability of randomly
assembling the RNA for the first cell in the time available is
certainly larger than in our modern (triplet codon) world. But the
probability is still small, no more than one part in about 1063.
We have identified a region in parameter space where, once the
genetic code exists, the probability of random assembly of the
first cell could have reached formally large values in optimal
conditions. These conditions include the following: (i) the first
cell contained 12 proteins; (ii) each protein in the cell
contained 14 amino acids; (iii) there were 4 bases in DNA; (iv)
the protein specificity index was no larger than 2.5 (far below
its average value); and (v) conditions in the primitive prebiosphere
were such that chemical reactions occurred at their
maximum possible rates. (The last of these conditions almost
certainly involves an optimization which is unrealistic by as much
as 10 orders of magnitude.)
(Note that we have said nothing about how the genetic code came
into existence. We merely assume that it is already in operation.
The origin of the code is a more formidable problem than the one
we have addressed here.)
If mathematics were the only consideration, our conclusions would
suggest that the RNA for the first cell could have been assembled
randomly in the primeval soup in 1.11 b.y. once there was a code
and abundant supplies of between 11 and 14 distinct proteinous
amino acids. However, when we take into account considerations of
coding theory (especially the necessity to protect the proteins
from errors of transcription), it appears that this region of
parameter space is hostile to protein production. And the genetic
code has to pass through a “bottleneck” in order to enter into the
modern world, with its 20 proteinous amino acids. As a result, the
first cell might have had serious difficulties surviving as an
autonomous biological system.
Finally, the extreme nature of our assumptions regarding the first
cell (12 proteins, each containing 14 amino acids) can hardly be
overstated. If a cell is to fulfil even the minimum requirements
of a Von Neumann self-replicating machine, it probably needs at
least 250 proteins. Even with multiple optimizations in our
assumptions about the primeval soup, the window of opportunity for
creating such a cell in 1.11 b.y. narrows down to a very
restricted region in phase space: (I) there must have been exactly
47
14 distinct amino acids in the cell proteins, (II) the protein
specificity index must have been between 1.0 and 1.17, and (III)
at least 1058 chemical reactions must have occurred between the
bases (or amino acids) in 1.11 b.y. The “fine tuning” of such
conditions presents a problem. However, there are more serious
problems than fine tuning: error protection in the genetic code
fails altogether in these conditions. Even the Central Dogma of
biology breaks down. A cell formed under these conditions would
truly be subject to serious uncertainties not only during day-today
existence but especially during replication. The cell could
hardly be considered robust.
Nevertheless, as Yockey (p. 203) points out, the possibility that
an organism from the doublet-codon world might have survived the
“bottleneck” may have some empirical support. According to the
endosymbiotic theory (L. Margulis 1970, Origin of Eukaryotic
Cells, Yale Univ. Press, New Haven CT), mitochondria might have
been at one time free-living bacteria which now survive in a
symbiotic relationship with the cytoplasma of other cells. In
mitochondria, the genetic code differs somewhat from the code in
other cells. Perhaps mitochondria are representative of organisms
which originated in the doublet-codon world, but which could not
survive on their own because of the difficulties associated with
the hostile zone of parameter space where they originated.
In summary, if the first cell actually originated by random
processes, the genetic code must already have existed, and
conditions must have been “finely tuned” in order to trace a path
through a narrow (and hostile) region of parameter space. The idea
that some of the constants of the physical world have been subject
to “fine tuning” in order to allow life to emerge, has been widely
discussed in recent years (e.g. in the book by J. D. Barrow and F.
J. Tipler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, Oxford University
Press, 1994, 706 pp). If we are correct in concluding that “fine
tuning” is also required in order to assemble the first cell, we
might regard this conclusion as a biological example of the
Anthropic Principle.
Reply

Ali_Cena
12-07-2008, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu

• Lightning. This is what the Miller-Urey experiment tested (and came up positive). Now, your source pointed out that the Miller-Urey experiment is no longer considered valid. This is true, but the reason for this is that Miller and Urey made an inaccurate assumption about the make-up of the early earth's atmosphere. In other words, they shot lightning through stuff that probably didn't exist at the time. However: the experiment has been repeated under a variety of other conditions, and several have turned up organic compounds like amino acids.
Well show us the other experiments...... that turned out positive, with sources.

First one on the list is abiogenesis. Most evolutionists will avoid this theory claiming it is not a part of evolution. That is why I started of by pointing out the importance of correct terminology. Abiogenesis is not a part of "the evolution of the different species"; however the theory of abiogenesis it is a part of "biological evolution".

Well actually since there are a lot of gaps here -as stated before- abiogenesis is closer to hypothesis rather than a theory. Some scientists speculate that it happened, but they failed to explain in detail exactly how it happened. Since, it's strictly speculation at this point, no proof, no falsifiability and no testability; in all common sense, we should even label this as science. The confusion though, is that this hypothesis is backed up with some scientific speculation, which makes the hypothesis appear scientific in nature. But that however doesn't change the lack of falsifiability, testability and proofs. That being said, lets look at some of the challenges of this theory.


Criteria for the first life

At first one might suggest that the first life form was a virus, since that would have been the easiest to create, since it requires the least number of parts. However a virus is parasitic in nature, and needs a host to reproduce. Another problem with the idea of the first life form being a virus is, that even if there would find a way that this virus would reproduce, it would never be able to evolve into a one-celled-organism. As soon as it would do so, the new evolved organism would immediately be invaded by it's brethren viruses, and wouldn't stand a fighting chance to survival. For this and many more problems, most abiogenesists suggest that the first living organism was a single-cell organism. But even the most simple one-celled organism is incredibly complex when looked at from a chemical level. It requires very specific molecules to be build in very specific manners at very specific places. It's like suggesting that a fully operative factory with working personal included was created from a tornado passing trough a scrapyard and then passing trough a cemetery. Even if the explanation brings you the right components, the tornado lacks the methodology to make those parts into a working plant with living operators. I said "even if", because neither abiogeneses nor evolution can even account for all the necessary parts, let alone explain how they were used together to build a cell. So let us consider what criteria the first biological entity should have had in order to evolve into the different species we know today.

1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.
2. A way to harvest energy.
3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.
4. A way to reproduce.


1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.

For the first part, the container, that sounds very plausible at first. From a chemical point of view, it's not that hard to create a membrane. And some promising work has been done in this field. However, that doesn't cut the mustard. A simple membrane enclosing all the parts would make it a closed system, we need our organism to have some basic interactions with its environment for the second criteria. If our organism should be able to harvest energy from it's environment, it needs "floodgates" in it's membrane that keeps harmful substances out but allows useful ones to enter. There can of course be many substances speculated on which this alleged first organism survived on. So depending on which form of energy it lived on, we need to adjust our membrane to allow that specific substance to pass.

2. A way to harvest energy.

We also need some organelles to harvest and convert this energy which again depends on which form of energy this system lives on. The energy will among other things be required to counter entropy at some point and guarantee the survival of the organism. Evolutionists propose that the first organism was a prokaryote; an organisms without any organelles in its cell that have a membrane-boundary. Most such organisms harvest energy by converting Dihydrogen (4H2) and Carbondioxide (CO2) into (CH4) and (2H2O). This is a process that requires very specific catalysts. Not only to convert the Carbondioxide and Dihydrogen to produce the methane; but also to fix a small remaining percentage of the CO2 into the cell structure.


3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.

The biggest challenge to the theory is DNA or RNA. And without it, there can be no evolution, without it no progress of previous life can be past down. And without passing down information, you cannot build up something, you cannot have an evolution. Since all living things have RNA or DNA, abiogenesists would expect the very first alive being to have it as well..Those molecules however are immensely complex. So the biggest challenge to abiogenesis is explaining how it could have formed spontaneously out of lifeless matter. But we encounter a paradox a bit similar as the chicken or the egg problem. Organisms carry genetic information in these nucleic acids; in their RNA or DNA. This information is then used to specify the composition of the amino acid sequences of all the proteins each cell needs to make. The cell also relies on organelles built out of proteins to replicate DNA or RNA during cell-division. So these proteins are required for self-perpetuation. So the question is: How did such a circular system come to existence? This is a real paradox. Nucleic acids are made with the help of proteins and proteins are made with the presence of their corresponding nucleotide sequence. So which of those two was first? The chicken or the egg? Common sense suggests that they were both created independently; which is even harder to phantom.

In 1953 the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted that attempted to mimic the conditions on earth during the time life originated. They mixed water and hydrogen as well as methane and ammonia. Then they used electrodes to emit electrical charges into the mixture. After several days of continuously charging the mixture with sparks, they managed to get about 2% of amino acids. However, much larger percentage of substances that are harmful to life also were created trough the process. Next to that the experiment didn't account by far for all types of amino acids required to make the needed proteins. Furthermore the experiment also failed to explain how these amino acids would then go on to form the required proteins. The experiment also showed some of the building blocks for nuclide acids, but again does not account for how they could have formed DNA/RNA. Furthermore, there were both left handed as well as right handed isomers in a 50% to 50% ratio, whereas only one type is used in our DNA.

Now, often people reply that this experiment only lasted a couple of days or a week, whereas the earth existed millions of years for this process to take place. But how does this change anything? The experiment was a controlled structured environment, whereas earth was an open unstructured chaotic environment, if anything the experiment should bring forth life a lot faster then the earth did, that is off course, if abiogenesis would be true. But let me expose the flaw in this counterargument by making a comparison. Lets say mankind cannot run 100m in 3.2 sec. We are simply unable to do so. Now if a track would run a stretch of 100m on a track of 200m or 300m or even 1000m; that would still not enable anyone to run those 100m of that track in 3.2 sec. In other words the length of the track -as long as it is longer then 100 meter- hardly affects the possibility of the performance because the additional length has no bearing on the likeliness of the performance. Likewise; the many years that the universe existed, and the many planets that were suitable for this process to occur does not influence the likeliness of such a process to be possible. If a process that should take 5 minutes cannot occur in a week, it cannot occur in a million years either. The amount of time available, as long as it is enough, doesn't make the chemically impossible into probable. Just putting ingredients together and stirring it up doesn’t suffice. That’s as ludicrous as saying that if you shake a box of Lego blocks long enough, eventually the building blocks in the box will spontaneously construct the house that is displayed on the front of the box.

But that's just the beginning. Next to the shortcomings of the experiment a lot of other criticism exists as to how representative it was. The experiment did not contain oxygen, since oxygen generally oxidizes anything it comes in contact with. This oxidation is quite destructive. Some scientists reply to this that the atmosphere didn't contain oxygen at that time. Be that as it may, no oxygen means that there also was no ozone, which is formed by oxygen. Ozone blocks us from UV light from the sun. Without ozone we'd be bombarded by it. And UV-light breaks down ammonia, one of the major components of the experiment. So I guess you're catching my drift by now. Either the experiment should have contained oxygen, to account for the presence of ammonium or we have to explain the high presence of ammonium despite the lack of ozone.

Another angle to looking at it -panspermia- is even more far fetched. Rather then only suggesting lightning struck at the exact same spot for a whole week, it also suggest that a meteor carrying amino acids also hit the very same spot. Now it is true that some meteors carry amino acids and that under unique circumstances the impact could cause peptides. But these peptides are short chains of amino acids, not the long proteins necessary for life. Furthermore it's even more unlikely considering not just any meteor would fit the bill. It has to be exactly the right size. Not to small so it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere destroying the amino acids, and not to big so the impact isn't to destructive either. At the same time delivering enough energy for the chemical process to take place. Also note, that this shifts part of the problem. It's true that some meteors carry amino acids, but how did those amino acids form in the meteor in the first place? This simply avoids the problem of having to explain how these molecules were formed trough natural processes.
4. A way to reproduce. Reproduction is obviously also a vital part.

If the organism just dies out without reproducing itself, the process of abiogenesis would just have to start all over again. As I said before we would have to have the right nucleic acids and the right proteins as well. The process of DNA reproduction, which is vital to cell division and reproduction is a very complex process which relies on different organelles.
Conclusion.

So I think you would see by now that the process of abiogenesis is most unlikely. And by unlikely I do not mean there are a number of different possible outcomes of which abiogenesis is just one. I do not mean it as a statistical implausibility. It is unlikely much rather because the circumstances allegedly giving this outcome are insufficient to explain the process at all.
Reply

K.Venugopal
12-07-2008, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
You contradict yourself a great deal, merely because you say that humans and God are one, and then you say that each is separate in doing his actions.
You say Allah is the creator. I say, if I may say so, He is the performer. In your view, a separation exists. In my view, no separation exists.
Reply

Tony
12-07-2008, 05:42 PM
I am not 100th as clever or articulate as any of you. It occurs to me that anyone who does not beleive Muhamad(pbuh) is Allahs messenger, must beleive him to be a genius of monolithic proportions. Aside from the scientific proofs and prophesies, Allah invites anyone to bring forth a book of its like, firstly for Muhhamad(pbuh) to make such a bold invite would take balls the size of jupiter, to remain unchallenged still is proof initself. to compile the Noble Qur'An with its mathematical dynamics would be impossible. Come on people proof is proof, the Qur,An is untouchable.:sl:
Reply

- Qatada -
12-07-2008, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu

Wait, you weren't talking about the universe at all, you were just talking about planets?

Of course planets have not always existed. They form on their own perfectly naturally, along with stars and other heavenly objects. Astronomers can even see planets and stars coalescing out of interstellar dust due to the force of gravity.
Exactly, thats the whole point. You expect me to believe something which is just based on a claim of atheists without any proof. Why should i accept that 'it just so happened that all the planets formed "perfectly naturally" [after an expansion of the universe (due to the bigbang)] so that i.e. the planet Earth was able to be in the EXACT correct location for life to form and even survive within it for many millions of years.'

That just doesn't convince me, and it doesn't convince a great deal of people either.



You are correct—the idea of abiogenesis has not been "proven" in the scientific sense yet (unlike, for example, the theory of relativity or the theory of evolution, which are considered proven concepts by scientists.)

So why believe in it? Because it's a compelling explanation for the origin of life that doesn't seem to contradict any evidence we have and isn't question begging.

You can just say "God did it," but I don't really see how this answer is any different from "I don't know." It doesn't explain anything, it just moves the question to *how* God did it, which is of course always an unanswerable mystery.
This is where Islamic science differs to 'creationism' of christianity. Where Allah tells us to reflect upon the creation, and see how it works, its patterns and amazements. Where christianity in the dark ages told people that because we can't understand the universe, it is proof that 'God did it'. Whereas at the exact same time period in the Islamic world - scientists were advancing in all fields of knowledge, and it is through this that the knowledge was passed onto Europe and caused the future 'Rennaisance'.


Anyway in regard to the topic and your statement above, why should i be compelled to accept something which isn't necessarily true? Science is something which is proven, otherwise its not really science is it?


Also: having studied and written about the ideas of abiogenesis, I think it is actually a beautiful, elegant idea. Mathematicians and physicists often talk about "beautiful" theories and formulas—by this, they mean there is a certain beauty, an elegance, when a simple formula or idea (like e=mc^2) can explain a huge number of complex phenomena. I think abiogenesis is an example of one such idea: it is the stepping stone from the science of chemistry to the science of biology. The significance of this stepping stone is nothing short of the universe becoming aware of itself, in the form of conscious animal matter.

And this is why I think it's such a shame that so many religious people, including yourself, don't even bother to try to understand the idea that you're criticizing. It bothers me much more than the fact that you don't accept it.

Maybe i am thinking about studying it in the near future?

Anyway, even then - to say something is 'beautiful' is not convincing proof for everyone, otherwise i say that God is beautiful and believing in Him has alot of positive effects - but will you accept that from me because i say its beautiful? No.



Yes, absolutely. Amino acids (along with other organic compounds, like lipids, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids) are simply clumps or chains of hydrocarbons. We know for a fact that the early earth was full of such hydrocarbons—in fact, such hydrocarbons exist on other planets and moons in our solar system. So the question is simply, could these hydrocarbons combine in a way to produce organic compounds like amino acids?

To do so would take energy, and there are several ways this could have happened:

• Hydrothermal vents (i.e. volcanoes beneath the ocean). A huge amount of energy is released in such places. If you look at hydrothermal vents today, even in the deepest, darkest, coldest reaches of the ocean, they are hot-beds of organic activity.

• Carbonaceous chondrite meteorites. We know that there are meteorites that contain carbon compounds. When these things crashed into the early earth, they could have produced the energy to combine the simple hydrocarbon compounds into organic compounds.

• Lightning. This is what the Miller-Urey experiment tested (and came up positive). Now, your source pointed out that the Miller-Urey experiment is no longer considered valid. This is true, but the reason for this is that Miller and Urey made an inaccurate assumption about the make-up of the early earth's atmosphere. In other words, they shot lightning through stuff that probably didn't exist at the time. However: the experiment has been repeated under a variety of other conditions, and several have turned up organic compounds like amino acids.

Now, we don't know for sure how it actually, since we weren't there—but organic compounds could have formed in any of these three ways. Once you have organic compounds, then of course there are still a lot of steps to go before you have a functioning cell. But there's been a lot of work done about this to, which I'd be happy to share with you (in another thread). For example, all cells today have what are called lipid membranes (lipids are a simple kind of organic compound). This is what holds the stuff inside of the cell in. Scientists have found that lipid membranes, about the size of a cell, form spontaneously, completely on their own, when lipids mix a certain way with water.

Thats the whole issue here, how do these form into proteins and even survive? You can say 'it may have happened like so and so' - but that isn't proof that it really occurred. Its exactly like i'm saying that God did it, but you saying 'prove it to me'. I believe it was controlled for its purpose, you don't.

Besides;

National Geographic, another well-known scientific magazine, wrote as follows:

Many scientists now suspect that the early atmosphere was different from what Miller first supposed. They think it consisted of carbon dioxide and nitrogen rather than hydrogen, methane, and ammonia. That's bad news for chemists. When they try sparking carbon dioxide and nitrogen, they get a paltry (hardly any) amount of organic molecules.
"The Rise of Life on Earth," National Geographic, March 1998
First of all, I fail to see how the actions of Muhammad's followers would determine whether or not Muhammad was a fraud.
It would a great deal.

Imagine some shepherds, coming from a culture where crime, corruption and evil is widespread. Where young girls were buried alive, where a man would support his tribe even if he knew that what it had done was wrong. Where racism was widespread. Where people feared stones - thinking that these stones could bring them harm and benefit.

Then Islam changed all that, where these people protected womens innocence, and honored their daughters [where a woman could keep all her share of her wealth for herself, whereas it is an obligation for the male to provide for the female.] Where a man would stand up against his own people for even a non muslim, so that the oppressed was freed from oppression. Where no white was better than any black, and no black better than any white except through obedience of Allah. Where people served the God who created them, and took them out of the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge and understanding.



Secondly, the rise of Islam was impressive, but not drastically so. Ghengis Kahn conquered more land in a shorter amount of time.
Ghengis khans empire didn't last for long at all, and guess what? The exact people who overthrew Muslim Baghdad [the Mongols] themselves became Muslims!



Alexander the Great probably improved the lives of the people he conquered as much as the Muslims did.
No he never, and i've read about him. His empire was vast, the Islamic world was more vast, and the rule of Alexander was of great oppression and caused more internal war within the lands he took over. Whereas Islam united people of different races and backgrounds into one body - so that the king would call a slave his brother. Where the black slave himself could be a king! [the mamluks]. Yet only now has the US praised itself to allow Obama to be the first black leader.


I really don't see how the fact that Muhammad's followers and their descendents ended up conquering a bunch of land and setting up a moderately-lived empire has any bearing on the truth of Muhammad's revelation.
That's because you lack knowledge on the Islamic world. It wasn't a moderately lived empire, it is the cause of what we see in the world today (i.e. an advanced world.) If it wasn't for Prophet Muhammad, the Muslim arabs would not leave their old ignorant practises, if it wasn't for them - they wouldn't free the Byzantine people, and the Persian people from their oppressive rulers, and therefore these people would still be in a state of servitude to their oppressive kings, causing no advances for the masses in fields of knowledge [islam allowed this by giving people equality and making it a duty on every person to gain knowledge], which would keep Europe in the dark ages - since Islamic knowledge would not spread there (Muslim Andalus and Ottoman Turkey allowed knowledge to enter Europe a great deal.) Causing the world to stay in a state of darkness and oppression from the oppressive rulers.

So if it wasn't for this one man, Muhammad. The world would be totally different, and not as it is today.



Certainly you don't think that Alexander the Great really was a demigod because his followers conquered so much land and spread so much civilization, do you?
Read up on Alexander the great, okay? He was a good conqueror, but not much more. And Muhammad is Allah's slave and Messenger, not a 'demi-god'.


Thirdly, Mormons can make the exact same argument! They don't have a military empire, but they have one of the fastest growing religions (faster than Islam, I believe), they have missionaries who travel around the world, who have done enormous good in poor and neglected regions (so they say). Does this mean Joseph Smith wasn't a fraud? I don't think so, but apparently you do.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and there are many articles to prove this. Some may say that it is due to high birth rates, i think it could be both i.e. people naturally being curious on what Islam really is [due to the headlines always discussing it], and also due to high birth rates.



First of all, the Bible is more read.
No, the Qur'an is. This is fact.

Why?


The Qur'an has remained in its original form since the time of Prophet Muhammad. Therefore every Muslim has always read the same Qur'an since its time. This has not been the case with the Bible since there are many different versions and denominations which differ on which one is correct.

The Qur'an is read more because it is read through all the different periods of life; for prayer which is 5x a day by every Muslim, at the time when funerals occur, during a persons illness [since it is a cure and mercy], for reward from Allah [every letter recited is a source of 10 rewards], millions of people memorize it letter for letter - whereas the bible is hardly memorized by the people.




Secondly, the fact that a book is popular has no bearing on whether or not its message is true. Or do you think Harry Potter is the best book ever?
The fact that a book has benefitted so much people and effected their way of life in so much ways throughout history is a proof that it is of great importance. Harry potter doesn't achieve this.

A documentary on channel 4 in the UK discussed this concept and explained how the 'Qur’an has become one of the most ideologically influential texts in the world'* and this is no exaggeration.

*http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr...tes/quran.html



Thirdly, I've read the Quran, and I think it's childish and barbaric. So do many people who have read it in the original Arabic.
Thats due to a lack of understanding on their part. And most likely even bias. Since history has proven Islam to be more tolerant than a great deal of other regimes.

The people who were ruled by former governments were pleased when Islam freed them from their oppression (even though you may disagree, they were happier with Islam's justice for them [where a non muslim could even get justice against the Muslim Caliph! (i.e. the Jew who found Ali ibn Abi Talib (the Caliphs sword) and kept it - but there were no witnesses to prove Ali's case except his own son Hasan - the judge never accepted this because he believed the case could be biased - so the jew kept Ali's sword and Ali did not object to this.] - they were more pleased with this than their previous governments.


You happen to disagree with me, but it's not a "fact" that the Quran is the greatest book evar, any more than it's a "fact" that Harry Potter is the greatest book evar—that's simply your opinion.
Read what i said above.


And fourthly, who cares if Muhammad was illiterate? Someone would have transcribed it. Was he incapable of dictation?
The Qur'an is the most influential text in the world since history. I doubt that someone who is illiterate was able to achieve such a success, whereas the likes of aristotle have even less influential text than Muhammad (peace be upon him.)


I have not studied Mormonism as much as I have studied Islam, but I can assure you that Mormons sing Joseph Smith's praises in the same way that you sing Muhammad's.

Here's one fawning biography:

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fullness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum" (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3)."
http://www.josephsmith.com/

good for him :)


Now tell me, does John Smith give guidance for all aspects of life?

I remember the scenario where a guy asked a companion of Prophet Muhammad;


Abu Dawud Book 1, Number 0007:

Narrated Salman al-Farsi (who afterwards became a ruler of Persia and ownly had 2 dirhams [silver coins] a day:
It was said to Salman: Your Prophet teaches you everything, even about excrement (to make a joke against him).

He [Salman] replied: Yes. He has forbidden us to face the qiblah at the time of easing or urinating, and cleansing with right hand, and cleansing with less than three stones, or cleansing with dung or bone.
Does john smith provide guidance for all aspects of life, even how to use the toilet?

Allah informed his Messenger about all aspects of life to make us the most noble people who have guidance and knowledge, so they can be successful in this world and the one to come. Those who will provide mankind with benefit, and protect them against corruption and evil



Now I don't buy this anymore than I buy Muhammad's followers fawning over him. As I've said throughout this thread, why should I care what someone's devoted followers have to say about them? It's not objective! A king's counselors and loyal servants are obviously going to sing praises about the king. A cult member is going to sing praises about the cult leader.

According to scientologists, L. Ron Hubbard (a science fiction writer who made up the religion of scientology, probably so he could make money out of its tax-exempt status) is the paragon of humanity. Believing what an early Muslim follower has to say about Muhammad is like believing what a scientologist has to say about L. Ron Hubbard.

Like i've informed you in my previous post, we can't overpraise Prophet Muhammad since he forbade that. ["call the the slave of Allah and His Messenger.]

Now you will say that the companions can lie about him to praise him, or bias towards him right? Maybe even say something about him so that he looks truthful.

But what did Muhammad himself say?

Narrated 'Ali: The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire."

[Authentic - Bukhari, Book of Knowledge #106]
So his companions couldn't lie about him, even if it was something good. If they lied about him, they were warned of against the hellfire. So you tell me, would someone who is a dedicated follower who really believes in him - would they lie about him to make him look good, while placing themselves in the threat of the hellfire?


Huh? Neither Islam nor Chinese civilization had much interaction with each other, certainly not warfare either way (though Chinese did commonly take Muslim slaves and neuter them).
Then you really havn't read Islamic and chinese history have you? Read about the Tang dynasty in china. Also read how companions of Prophet Muhammad like Sa'd ibn Abi Waqas went there to preach Islam. Also, during the Abbasid dynasty - there was much more connection between both Chinese and Muslims.


I was simply responding to the claim that Islamic civilization was the most advanced in the world. Even during its golden age, Chinese civilization covered more area and generally had better technology (though, of course, both Islamic and Chinese civilizations have had their ups and downs over time).

Islam in China;
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/486/
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...amic%20history
http://www.1001inventions.com




What was he after? The same thing many men are after:

fame, power, and women. You've simply chosen to take the rosy interpretation for his acquisition of all these things; I have not, and I don't see why I should.
All these are answered previously;


1) He never wanted people to overpraise him, he would tell the people to call him "the slave and Messenger of God." and not to exaggerate in his praise like the christians did to Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.) He also said [translation of the meaning;]

"Beware of exaggerated praise for it was only this which led those before you to destruction" (As Saheehah/Authentic of Al Albaanee #1283) So he wasn't after praise and fame.


2) He lived and died poor, even after being the leader of arabia (the arabs became Muslim willingly during his lifetime), with only a few silver coins in his house before his death. That's because he spent his wealth on the needy all the time. So he wasn't after wealth. If you say he wanted to be the leader of arabia for fame, then why didn't he accept their offer during Makkah instead of facing hardship in Medinah [for 10 long years] later anyway? Surely a person wanting kingdom wants it quick.


3)
He could get married to any woman he wanted in Arabia, but he married many widows. The only one being virgin was Aisha. So he wasn't after women. Otherwise he could choose the most beautiful ones, and no-one would argue. But he still never.


Further commenting on the issue;

When the Quraysh said to him that you can be our king, they were saying that he would be the king of arabia. But he rejected this offer.

When he died, he was the king of Arabia. Islam never had expanded politically to other parts of the world at this time.


The point being made is that he could have simply been king of Arabia without having to go through all this struggle, torture, defensive battles etc. And if he really was doing it for kingdom, he could have accepted this offer. But instead, when he died - he left all of Arabia in a state of true Islam.

This shows that his ambition was for Islam to be upheld, and not merely for the purpose of kingdom, or fame.



From a Muslim source? Why do you believe this even happened? The story is absurd, and sounds conspicuously like the story about Satan offering Jesus all the kingdoms in the world.



It's also the same template as Buddha's story. Siddharta Guatema was a great prince of India, with unlimited riches—and he gave it all up to be a holy man and spread enlightenment.

Moses was a great Egyptian prince, but he gave it all up to spread the truth of God's word, etc.

Rama was a great prince of the kingdom of Ayodhana. But he gave it all up to travel in the wilderness and discover his destiny.

Alexander the Great was a great prince of Macedonia, but he gave up a life of peace and prosperity to expand Greek civilization and free all the lands in Asia (by conquest, of course).

L. Ron Hubbard was a famous science fiction author, but he gave all that up to spread the truth of Scientology.

Do you notice a pattern here? It's one of those standard religious legends. The prophet has everything, or is offered everything, but he does the right thing and turns it down to spread the truth or become enlightened or whatever. But I guess you think it's only true for Muhammad (based on, of course, something his followers wrote down).

But what did Muhammad himself say?
Narrated 'Ali: The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire."

[Authentic - Bukhari, Book of Knowledge #106]
Anyway, that's it for me in this thread—we've both stated our positions pretty clearly, and I only hope you've seen my side of it. Peace be upon you.

Peace :thankyou:
Reply

Ali_Cena
12-07-2008, 06:34 PM
:w:
LOL Peace be upon you all inshallah,
i just want to see Qingu reply to Skye's, mine and qatada's posts lol---they are long posts lol.
Peace
Reply

جوري
12-07-2008, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
:w:
LOL Peace be upon you all inshallah,
i just want to see Qingu reply to Skye's, mine and qatada's posts lol---they are long posts lol.
Peace
:sl:
When your argument is based on faith.. you'll not be interested in every little minuscule detail you have to account for.. God is in the details indeed.. the smallest cell has billions of perfectly working functions, DNA sequencing, organization, numerous cellular processes, codons for distinct functions such as transcription, translation, replication, DNA compaction and genome distribution to daughter cells--
complex pathways which are difficult to explain without invoking something other than adaptive forces and mutation as such none have been proven to confer anything but death or disease-- yet all that occurs imposes a strong purpose and directionality-- and I am only in a small paragraph trying to give a small account to such a broad array of events ONLY on a cellular level.. let alone the environment or the universe --

yet here you have a fellow that proposes a phenomenon by which living organisms are created from nonliving matter, given organic compounds that may or may not have existed billions of yrs ago.. further would like us to believe that these seemingly simple undirected, spontaneous events occurred all at the same time for if just one simple rock after some amazing incorporation unto itself of same base pairs that favor form and sentience had an inborn error of metabolism that affected say merely the transfer of nitrogen into urea cycle early on, that fully un-evolved creature could either potentially pee out pure acid or go into a coma from the build up of nitrogenous wastes and die thereby having to start the whole cycle of autogeny all over... but hey in a way it sounds way better than religion because some guy with an attachment next to his name said that is how it happened and because it frees the rest of us from the responsibility of having to think for ourselves.. that is how all great things a la mode of lenin, and xedong began.

Never you mind common sense, when you appeal to authority.. but even that logical fallacy comes to bite you with the fact that the majority of scientists and Doctors believe in God

updated 5:40 p.m. ET, Thurs., Aug. 11, 2005
About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion.



© 2008 LiveScience.com. All rights reserved.

Scientists' faith varies starkly by discipline - LiveScience- msnbc.com
According to a recent study most doctors believe in God and an afterlife. This conclusion apparently contradicts earlier research which showed that in general, people tend to become less religious as education and income levels rise.
The survey by Farr Curlin, a doctor and instructor at the University of Chicago, of 1,125 U.S. doctors, found that 76 percent believe in God and nearly 60 percent in some sort of afterlife.

Curlin, who oversaw the survey, says he was surprised, as the team did not realize physicians were this religious.

He says they suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine, as the responsibility to care for those who are suffering, and the rewards of helping those in need, resonate throughout most religious traditions.

The researchers also found that 90 percent of doctors said they attend religious services at least occasionally, and are more likely to describe themselves as 'spiritual' as distinct from religious, whereas for the general population, spirituality and religion appear to be more tightly connected.

They found that doctors and patients also differ on how they rely on God for help in coping with a major illness, as while most patients will look to God for strength, support and guidance, most doctors will instead try to make sense of the situation and decide what to do without relying on God.
http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/j...84-8734&site=1

I am rather glad he takes delight in his ignorance while passing it off as solid science on random forums-- It is entertaining and virtually appealing!

:w:
Reply

Qingu
12-14-2008, 05:34 AM
Ali,

I'm going to take some time and answer your post in depth. But I notice you've copied and pasted large chunks of it from an earlier post on this forum. I hope you have actually taken the time to understand what you are copying and pasting, and I hope you will likewise take the time to read and understand my responses. And in the future, I'd appreciate it if you would argue in your own words.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Well show us the other experiments...... that turned out positive, with sources.
"...new experiments since the Miller-Urey ones have achieved similar results using various corrected atmospheric compositions (Figure 1; Rode, 1999; Hanic et al., 2000). Further, although some authors have argued that electrical energy might not have efficiently produced organic molecules in the earth's early atmosphere, other energy sources such as cosmic radiation (e.g., Kobayashi et al., 1998), high temperature impact events (e.g., Miyakawa et al., 2000), and even the action of waves on a beach (Commeyras, et al., 2002) would have been quite effective."
http://ncseweb.org/creationism/analy...rey-experiment

Link to a chart summarizing the experiments done since Miller-Urey:
http://ncseweb.org/creationism/analy...n-figures#fig1

As you can see, we've tested it under a pretty wide variety of atmospheric conditions, many of which produced organic compounds.

And, as I pointed out, early replicators may have emerged in other places, such as in deep-ocean hydrothermal vents.

First one on the list is abiogenesis. Most evolutionists will avoid this theory claiming it is not a part of evolution. That is why I started of by pointing out the importance of correct terminology. Abiogenesis is not a part of "the evolution of the different species"; however the theory of abiogenesis it is a part of "biological evolution".
Not really. All you need for biological evolution are replicators, specifically DNA and cellular machinery. You don't need to explain where the first DNA and cells came from for evolution to work. All of evolution, starting from the first cell, is governed by the same principle—independent of where that first cell came from.

But I will admit, it's useful to think of biological evolution as continuous with previous "chemical evolution" or abiogenesis. I'm certainly not advocating that we avoid looking for explanations for the emergence of the first replicators.

And, as you point out later, abiogenesis is not a theory, it's a hypothesis (actually it's a group of several).

At first one might suggest that the first life form was a virus,
Actually, no. As far as I know, this is not a commonly held view among biologists (partially for the reasons you point out).

Another reason is that it simply makes more sense for viruses to evolve from cellular life than the other way around. Viruses can be seen as stray bits of genetic material (in the form of RNA, not DNA) that get separated from a cell's genetic material and start replicating themselves. Viruses are not the only things that do this. Prions are examples of self-replicating proteins (and are responsible for a number of diseases, like viruses).

But you don't even need to go outside of DNA to look for virus-like entities. There are parts of your genome that are "parasitic." Many stretches of your DNA exist only to replicate themselves. They do not code for proteins, and they have no effect on the other genes. Some of them may even have bad effects, but for some reason don't get selected against. For example, some scientists think dementia is really just caused by stretches of your DNA that don't "activate" until old age. How would such genes survive? Because for most of human history, nobody lived to old age. These genes did not have a chance to express themselves, so they didn't have a chance to get selected against. They're worthless parasites—like viruses—that have piggybacked on the rest of your genome and use your body to replicate themselves.

Point being, there are several examples of "rogue replicators" evolving from cellular DNA, viruses almost certainly being one of them.

For this and many more problems, most abiogenesists suggest that the first living organism was a single-cell organism. But even the most simple one-celled organism is incredibly complex when looked at from a chemical level. It requires very specific molecules to be build in very specific manners at very specific places. It's like suggesting that a fully operative factory with working personal included was created from a tornado passing trough a scrapyard and then passing trough a cemetery. Even if the explanation brings you the right components, the tornado lacks the methodology to make those parts into a working plant with living operators.
Your problem here is that you think biologists are claiming that cells appeared overnight, fully formed. I don't think any biologist thinks this is what happened.

At this point, I want to distinguish between "life" and "replicators." Trying to define the boundary of life is difficult and boils down to semantics. Is fire alive? Are storms alive? Are viruses alive? All of these things replicate. Fire and storms grow, respond and adapt to environmental stimuli, and can be said to have a process akin to metabolism. Viruses, like living things, have heredity. But generally, biologists limit the definition of life to cellular life.

So in this sense, obviously the first living thing is going to be a cell. But a cell wouldn't just appear out of nowhere. Let's break down what, exactly, a cell is:

Cells are walls. Cells all have membranes, or boundaries, that separate their interior from the outside world. These membranes are (I believe) exclusively made of lipid bilayers. As I said in an earlier post, lipids are a kind of organic molecule. Certain lipids, when mixed with water, will spontaneously form a bubblelike membrane, about the size of a cell. This means that the very structure of a cell—an enclosing membrane—could simply form naturally, on its own. As for the inside of the cell:

Cells are chemical factories. Inside a cell's membrane is a soup of various organic chemicals. (Remember, early cells, like bacteria and archaea, do not have a nucleus or mitochondria—those structures come later.). Now, if the cell's membrane forms spontaneously in water—and if the early Earth's water had organic chemicals—then obviously a few of these membranes are going to have the same kind of chemicals that, for example, simple bacteria have. One important concept here is catalysis. In a cell's interior, chemical reactions don't just happen willy-nilly. They depend on catalysts, which are mostly proteins called enzymes. Today, all such proteins are "built" from DNA codes. But before there was DNA, there might have been simpler catalysts that weren't proteins. What could have these catalysts have been? The answer probably lies in the next section:

Cells are replicators. By "replicate," I mean that a cell is able to copy its entire pattern of existence. Non-living things can do this too. Crystals, for example, replicate their patterns by "accretion." Viruses, too, replicate. For living things, the "pattern" that gets replicated is encoded in the form of a molecule. That molecule, today, is DNA. But in viruses it is RNA. And in all cells, RNA acts as a messenger between DNA and the proteins that are built with the DNA CODE. (To be more precise: a DNA molecule is shaped like a double-helix—a twisting ladder. Each "step" of the ladder is like a part of the code that builds proteins. An RNA molecule, on the other hand, is shaped like one half of that ladder. Because of the way they are shaped, certain RNA molecules can link up with a split DNA molecule and copy the DNA pattern exactly.)

So clearly, RNA has the capability of replicating (it does so in viruses, and helps DNA replicate itself in cells). What is interesting about RNA is that it can also act as a catalyst. This is important because it solves the chicken-and-egg question of what came first, DNA or protein enzymes? DNA requires protein enzymes to act as catalysts for its construction. But the protein enzymes cannot be built without complex DNA codes. RNA solves the puzzle—it can take on both the role of DNA and enzymes. This is the so-called "RNA World" hypothesis.

I've skipped a lot of steps. RNA (and DNA) are composed of nucleic acids. Proteins are made of amino acids. But both of these acids are examples of organic molecules that would have probably existed on the early earth naturally. They also can link up (again, naturally) to form various kinds of molecules on their own. Some of them resemble rudimentary RNA and proteins.

So here's what's likely: a lipid membrane naturally formed around a collection of early RNA and protein molecules. All it would take is a lucky combination of replicating and enzyme RNA—remember, this took a billion years. There's your cell. It wouldn't have DNA. But you can get DNA from RNA (RNA can twist on itself to form a double-helix shape). And that is all it would take to get the whole process of life started.

So let us consider what criteria the first biological entity should have had in order to evolve into the different species we know today.

1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.
2. A way to harvest energy.
3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.
4. A way to reproduce.
I've addressed, in general terms, 1, 3, and 4 above. As for #2 (harvesting energy), the earliest cell would have plenty of "food," it would in fact be floating in a sea of food for itself. As I said, the complex ways that modern (specifically, eukaryotic) cells get energy using chlorophyll and mitochondria do not need to be explained at this point: most bacteria don't have them, and they evolved later (probably from big bacteria engulfing smaller bacteria with such capabilities, as genetic studies show). To address your points in detail:

1. A container that keeps the different parts of the life form together.

For the first part, the container, that sounds very plausible at first. From a chemical point of view, it's not that hard to create a membrane. And some promising work has been done in this field. However, that doesn't cut the mustard. A simple membrane enclosing all the parts would make it a closed system, we need our organism to have some basic interactions with its environment for the second criteria. If our organism should be able to harvest energy from it's environment, it needs "floodgates" in it's membrane that keeps harmful substances out but allows useful ones to enter. There can of course be many substances speculated on which this alleged first organism survived on. So depending on which form of energy it lived on, we need to adjust our membrane to allow that specific substance to pass.
Lipid bilayers fit the bill, and they form spontaneously in water. They even split under certain conditions, as cells do in meiosis.

2. A way to harvest energy.

We also need some organelles to harvest and convert this energy. which again depends on which form of energy this system lives on. The energy will among other things be required to counter entropy at some point and guarantee the survival of the organism. Evolutionists propose that the first organism was a prokaryote; an organisms without any organelles in its cell that have a membrane-boundary. Most such organisms harvest energy by converting Dihydrogen (4H2) and Carbondioxide (CO2) into (CH4) and (2H2O). This is a process that requires very specific catalysts. Not only to convert the Carbondioxide and Dihydrogen to produce the methane; but also to fix a small remaining percentage of the CO2 into the cell structure.
Firstly, I want to make clear—as you point out—that the early cells would not have organelles. Most biologists believe that organelles (like mitochondria) emerged when a certain bacteria engulfed the bacteria destined to become the mitochondria. Same goes for chloroplasts and other organelles in Eukaryotic cells.

Secondly, it is not at all clear how the earliest cell would have gotten energy. There is no reason to believe it would have been anything like the process used by most prokaryotes today, who have evolved in an oxygen-rich environment completely different from the early earth, filled with competitors (and predators). As I said, the earliest cell would have had no competitors, and would have been floating in a soup of easy-to-get food. Energy for powering the reactions in the cell membrane could have come from a hydrothermal vent heat source. As far as catalysts go, I've already explained how RNA can act both as a catalyst and a replicator, and in fact certain kinds of RNA act as metabolic catalysts in cells today.

3. An information carrier like RNA, DNA or another nucleic acid.

The biggest challenge to the theory is DNA or RNA. And without it, there can be no evolution, without it no progress of previous life can be past down. And without passing down information, you cannot build up something, you cannot have an evolution. Since all living things have RNA or DNA, abiogenesists would expect the very first alive being to have it as well..Those molecules however are immensely complex. So the biggest challenge to abiogenesis is explaining how it could have formed spontaneously out of lifeless matter. But we encounter a paradox a bit similar as the chicken or the egg problem. Organisms carry genetic information in these nucleic acids; in their RNA or DNA. This information is then used to specify the composition of the amino acid sequences of all the proteins each cell needs to make. The cell also relies on organelles built out of proteins to replicate DNA or RNA during cell-division. So these proteins are required for self-perpetuation. So the question is: How did such a circular system come to existence? This is a real paradox. Nucleic acids are made with the help of proteins and proteins are made with the presence of their corresponding nucleotide sequence. So which of those two was first? The chicken or the egg? Common sense suggests that they were both created independently; which is even harder to phantom.
Your source completely ignores the RNA World hypothesis. As I said before, RNA solves the chicken and egg paradox—it can act both as a replicator and as a catalyst.

Your source then goes on to do a bunch of nonsensical probability analyses, which are not really worth commenting on. As I said earlier, such probability estimates completely mis-characterize how biologists think early cells actually emerged.

4. A way to reproduce. Reproduction is obviously also a vital part.

If the organism just dies out without reproducing itself, the process of abiogenesis would just have to start all over again. As I said before we would have to have the right nucleic acids and the right proteins as well. The process of DNA reproduction, which is vital to cell division and reproduction is a very complex process which relies on different organelles.
But early reproduction would have been handled by RNA, not DNA. In fact, it's likely that DNA "evolved" from RNA (as I said before, RNA can coil around itself to form structures similar to DNA double-helixes).

So I think you would see by now that the process of abiogenesis is most unlikely. And by unlikely I do not mean there are a number of different possible outcomes of which abiogenesis is just one. I do not mean it as a statistical implausibility. It is unlikely much rather because the circumstances allegedly giving this outcome are insufficient to explain the process at all.
This is simply not true. Everything in a simple prokaryotic cell could easily be derived from things that would have occured naturally on the early earth:

• A lipid bilayer cell membrane, which encloses:
• A solution of organic compounds, including:
• RNA, some of which acts as a replicator (holding information), some of which acts as an enzyme (for speeding the process of replication).

That's all it takes. Once you have these things inside a cell membrane, then you have life, and evolution—natural selection + mutations take over and create diversity.

So I'm curious—where do we need a god for this? Which step of this process do you think is sufficiently unlikely and requires divine intervention? And are you saying that all Allah did to create life was to give a few nucleic acid molecules a little stir so they formed sufficient RNA? Is that how God "created" life?

Theistic arguments like this seem so silly to me, because you're really just relegating your great and majectic Creator to a "God-of-the-Gaps." God is simply an invocation for whatever parts of reality you can't quite understand at the moment—just like how people used to think lightning was the result of gods doing battle in heaven, or diseases were the results of demons or djinn possession (I guess some Muslims still believe this). Now we know why, and how, thunderstorms form, so there's no need for Gods to explain it. It seems like your God's power is limited to the shrinking category of natural phenomena that humans don't quite understand yet.
Reply

Ali_Cena
12-14-2008, 03:42 PM
hi, qingu, let me put it this way, i copyed it from Abdul Fattahs, website, i dont think he is a professor or doctor, so instead of replying to my post(Abdul Fattahs) you should try to debunk or show us why Dermott J. Mullan (posted by Skye) is wrong,
That doesnt mean that Abdul Fattah is wrong, its just that Dermott might have a stronger argument, on abiogenesis.
Peace
Reply

Qingu
12-14-2008, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
hi, qingu, let me put it this way, i copyed it from Abdul Fattahs, website, i dont think he is a professor or doctor, so instead of replying to my post(Abdul Fattahs) you should try to debunk or show us why Dermott J. Mullan (posted by Skye) is wrong,
That doesnt mean that Abdul Fattah is wrong, its just that Dermott might have a stronger argument, on abiogenesis.
Peace
Ali, I'm not going to do that—for the same reason that I don't expect you to go on TalkOrigins and debunk the arguments on there.

I could easily copy and paste a huge chunk of paste from a pro-evolution/abiogenesis sight on here and go "HA! MUSLIMS, DEBUNK THIS OR ADMIT ATHEISM IS TRUUEEE!" I could do this without even understanding the text I'm posting—as I suspect you and Skye have done. But I think this would say more about my own laziness than it would say about the untruth of Islamic creationism.

The point of debate—and the reason I come on websites like this—is that there is a back-and-forth. In the process, both sides can learn something (even if they don't agree). I could argue against Mr. Mullan's website, but he wouldn't be able to answer me.

That said, if Mr. Mullan would like to come on here and have a debate with me, I would love to oblige. Similarly, if you understand his arguments, feel free to make them in your own words, and I'll argue with you.
Reply

Great I am not
12-14-2008, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Do any of you ever think about how we should feel about prophets of other faiths? Obviously, I'm not Muslim, so I don't think Muhammed was a prophet. I'm not Mormon, so I don't think Joseph Smith was a prophet. I'm not a Scientologist, so I don't think L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet.:D I could do the same for a hundred other religions, but those are the ones that came off the top of my head. This leaves me with a puzzle. How do I formulate my view of other faiths prophets, when I don't believe their teachings? I think of 3 options. One is they lied, for whatever reason. Two is that they were just crazy. Three is that they had some experience and then convinced themselves that they heard instruction from God. What do you think? Is this a fair view?
We do not recognize the prophets of other faiths nor do we know how to identify the new prophets. The moment they come out they are labeled as fools.

Trust me. I know this as a fact.

We all follow a God, or a blend of Gods, if you consider God to mean a philosophy of life.

Religions offer Gods and Politics offer Gods as well as philosophies of life.

At end time elections, we are to evaluate all of these Gods and elect a new Man/God.

To recognize a prophet of a miracle working creator God then that would be easy because he could just show one and that would be that.

To recognize a prophet with a God that does not do miracles but was born of man, who evolved and evolves, to cosmic consciousness. Now that is a tough sell. Yet in the beginning, this is how it had to be.

The only trouble with prophets is that the religious communities will not allow one to be recognized by public debate. This would force unity and most religions are based on exclusion and not inclusion.

Strange when their Gods began as a totally inclusive alien entity and master of all things.

Your own tone indicates that a prophet has to convince himself of the experience or revelation. You condemn The prophet before he speaks by insinuating that God is not the one who did the convincing.

I forgive you though.

Regards
DL
Reply

Great I am not
12-14-2008, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, not if the choices are restricted to 'liar', 'crazy' or 'delusional'. You may decide on one of those in the end, of course, but you dismiss 'four' (which should be 'one'!) far too easily - that they were none of those things.

It simply isn't enough to say I am not a muslim, Mormon or whatever, and your first task before assigning labels to prophets should be to give serious consideration to their messages.
Think demographically, was my message from God. Took 20 years to figure it out.

Mean much to you as a help in prophet identification?

Communication with God turns one from whatever one is into a fool for a time in the eyes of most.

Regards
DL
Reply

Great I am not
12-14-2008, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

1st if all, the premise for your question is incorrect. regardless of whether or not you are a Muslim, regardless of your opinion, the Prophet of Allah, Muhammad ibn Abdullah[pbuh] IS the final Messenger of Allah Subahanahu Wa Ta Aala!

There is no God but Allah[swt], and we worship Him alone and without partners and Muhammad[pbuh] is the slave and final Messenger of Allah.

what you think of the other religions will not help you on the day of Qiyama. you should be more concerned with why you are rejecting the final Message from your creator and my creator.

to quote the Messenger[pbuh] of Allah[swt]:

“In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Peace be upon him who follows the right path. Furthermore, I invite you to Islam and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your subjects. And I recite to you Allah's statement:

“O People of the Scriptures! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah). (Qur’an: Surah 3, Ayah 64).”

:w:
You sound like a Bible thumping Christian. Stop hurting your own faith by being too Fundamental.

Regards
DL
Reply

Great I am not
12-14-2008, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fighting4Iman
you can tell whos a prophet by what they teach - if it conforms to the ways of all the prophets and teachings of God then you know it

if not they his a liar - kazzab - dajjal
What if he follows a prophet different from the prophet of your religion? Are you willing to switch?

Regards
DL
Reply

Great I am not
12-14-2008, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
What is the Criteria for a True Prophet?


http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/202/
I stopped at evidence of claim.

Your prophet must do miracles must he?

Regards
DL
Reply

Great I am not
12-14-2008, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I am sure in this forum a million words would have been written defining a prophet. Still, for the benefit of late entrants like me with a paucity of time to wade through all that which has been written previously, I shall be thankful if someone would spell out what sort of a person is entitled to be called a prophet.

He must first claim it so.

Regards
DL
Reply

Re.TiReD
12-14-2008, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Ali, I'm not going to do that—for the same reason that I don't expect you to go on TalkOrigins and debunk the arguments on there.

I could easily copy and paste a huge chunk of paste from a pro-evolution/abiogenesis sight on here and go "HA! MUSLIMS, DEBUNK THIS OR ADMIT ATHEISM IS TRUUEEE!" I could do this without even understanding the text I'm posting—as I suspect you and Skye have done. But I think this would say more about my own laziness than it would say about the untruth of Islamic creationism.

The point of debate—and the reason I come on websites like this—is that there is a back-and-forth. In the process, both sides can learn something (even if they don't agree). I could argue against Mr. Mullan's website, but he wouldn't be able to answer me.

That said, if Mr. Mullan would like to come on here and have a debate with me, I would love to oblige. Similarly, if you understand his arguments, feel free to make them in your own words, and I'll argue with you.
From Skye Ephemerine:

This isn't about debunking to prove something true or untrue.. this is about the probability of events having happened as you'll have us believe. For starters Mr' Mullan is a doctor, what are your qualifications otherwise?

I am glad you can write with bravado of fifth grade biology of lipid bilayers and RNA as if that means anything . And I am glad you take advantage of my leave for more important matters to sprout some backbone.


The text I have placed is nothing more than a summary, with variables using the smallest unit you describe to favor life, sentience etc.. If you'd actually bothered to read the first two lines, it would have become apparent along with the qualification of the author, since you feel free to speak on behalf of the entire scientific community, and want to challenge them as if you actually have something of substance to impart!


I really don't have the time to sit here and mull over stupidities, if I did I wouldn't suspend my account to begin with-- if events as you describe were even a remote possibility then prove it using known science.. we have liposomes, and Ecoli to use as vectors admittedly with direct human manipulation (I guess we'll otherwise leave to the wind and rain) to mimic those evolutionary milestones --yet here we are in the twenty first century unable to tackle something as trivial as the rhinovirus yet Qingu the mavin has already unlocked the secrets of the universe .. Does anyone here know of a 'prion' or a virus (classified by most scientists) as non-living organisms to survive without a host? Yet this fellow proposes that an RNA can survive outside the body and from it more complex events occurred.. sadly doesn't even want to take the time to tell us how this perfect amino acids managed to come about from spontaneous generation, further manage sentience and functionality in lieu of goo or a worthless haptens to allow for more complex events leading to amongst other things higher reticular function.


Mullan to sum up a summary, has taken the smallest unit, even smaller than modern day viruses which again aren't known to survive without a host, and considering chance alone that they came to be, to cascade the events you believe.. extending the life of this planet even beyond the supposed billions we know of its existence, time when life was made favorable earth's proximity to the sun using our earliest known fossils etc etc etc using the laws of mathematics, Biology isn't a monolithic field-- in order for science to be true it has to be integrated with other branches.. that is, if we are talking of other than poetic science --- and in the end didn't make a conclusion for you, on the account that isn't the aim of science.. Science isn't about certainty it is about possibilities and probabilities and proving the proposed true or untrue.. again if you bother read such things as P values, confidence intervals, Null hypothesis, types I and II errors, I imagine it would all be less difficult for you to understand...


The burden of proof really doesn't lie with us, rather with you.. We are not the ones certain that is how it took place.. but if you are certain then put up or shut up! we wouldn't post articles we haven't read, or science we can't back up... I have come to know you to draw such deep satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions.. you don't want websites to read yet constantly reference us to websites.. a double sided hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself -- so just take a hike and enjoy life, it is rather short a little RNA virus with a little reverse transcriptase can really do you in -- I wouldn't waste my time trying to send as many astray right along with me!


Cheers
Reply

Woodrow
12-15-2008, 12:00 AM
This thread has gone on for 3 weeks and over 150 posts. It is a very interesting thread. But, it seems that all further posts are simply carrying it further from the original topic.

The thread has long ceased serving any purpose and can only lead to angry responses, rather than honorable debate.

:threadclo:
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