Having a religion to believe in God ??

[Danah]

Asalam Alykom every one.

just a quick question I read in a site......

do people need to have a religion in order to believe in God?
I mean I heard of deists who are believing in God but don't follow any religion.

I think having a religion is ruling and organizing the way you believe in your God...

so what do you think guys...I need your opinions

[Olive]

:sl:

I guess some people like to think that there is a God, but you don't need to follow any religion to reach Him...

:w:

[Danah]

but dont we have to have religions to know the best way of reaching God..........

please sisters and brothers..........where are your posts?

[K.Venugopal]

For me, religion/God is all about discovering my potential. That is, religions are teachings that enlighten us to our ultimate nature, which we may call God or whatever. This idea of "believing" in God I find suspect because if God exists, then He is a fact and believing Him is redundant. If 'believe' is used in the sense of 'faith', I concede that faith benefits man in all his endeavours. But unless faith in God leads us to our divinity, it is only a ploy to get us counted as loyalists by whom we call God.

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[glo]

Nice thread, SAYA.

I know of people who believe in God, but feel that the 'man-made' side of organized religions can get in the way of reaching God and feeling his presence.

If you think about it, 'religious people' aren't always the best advertisement for the religion they represent. People in churches/mosques/temples etc aren't always nice: they can the judgmental, there can be in-bickering and backbiting, people can be excluded or ignored. Leaders can be harsh and judgmental, followers can feel unheard and misunderstood ...

If you think about it, there can be lots of ways followers can tarnish their religion to the eyes of the outside world!

Another problem, I believe, is that many people don't trust scripture.
Many believe religious laws and rulings to be invented by those in power to keep the population quiet and obedient ... Along the lines of "If you don't do X,Y and Z, your punishment in the afterlife will be terrible!!" (That used to be my perception when I was young)

Consequently some people prefer to seek God privately on their own, without the guidance of scripture or other believers.
What they perhaps forget is on their own they are as much at risk of falling prey to their own human nature than they accuse those followers of other religions of: they can make up their own rules and rituals, without really knowing whether they are following God's wishes or merely their own ...

However, it is encouraging to know that there are many people out there seeking God.
I think in some ways I agree with SAYA: If we earnestly seek God, he will certainly guide us ... even if that process takes a lifetime and takes us through other religions along the way.

May we all be willing to hear and follow God's voice in our lives.

Peace

[Danah]

I think religion is something more like the user manual used to guide someone to know how to use what he has.
We can believe in one God, but in order to ensure that we are really believed in him we need to work. I mean the worshipping is the thing that comes along with the faith to ensure it and strengthen it.
For example, if someone goes around killing people, steal their properties, hurt them by any mean, can this considered as someone believe in God? I think this will be nothing but ignoring the existence of God by doing all those things.
And as glo said, many people don’t believe in scriptures, I meet some of them. They prefer to have their own ways of life they might think that some scriptures are written by human.
The question here is can they guarantee that their human rules can lead them to have perfect rules to guide their life. I mean no one is perfect; any one can make mistake and going astray, human laws are not perfect and if we end up with having all the population of earth deists and everyone has his own way of life, what kind of life we will expect?
Each one will think about his belief of God existence in different way than the others; each one will have his own standards and principles in life. This will lead the world to a big mess. I think religions are what gather specific groups of people in the world to have the same thought about the God existence

[glo]

For example, if someone goes around killing people, steal their properties, hurt them by any mean, can this considered as someone believe in God? I think this will be nothing but ignoring the existence of God by doing all those things.

Sadly the past, the present and even our daily lives give us evidence of many so-called believers in God, who do such things. Are those indications that those people are not true believers?
Can we as believers in God really always claim to be better than our non-believing counterparts??

Personally, I am sure that I hurt some people in some way or another (by thought, deed or lack of deed) almost certainly every day that passes!

[Gator]

The question here is can they guarantee that their human rules can lead them to have perfect rules to guide their life. I mean no one is perfect; any one can make mistake and going astray, human laws are not perfect and if we end up with having all the population of earth deists and everyone has his own way of life, what kind of life we will expect?

From the few non-religious theists I've met, I think people who believe in god but not organized religions believe that their innate morality is basically god's user manual (isn't that what a Gnostic is?).

They believe god's communication of what he wants is on a personal individualistic level and imbedded to their reason and conscience.

Thanks.

[Danah]

Can we as believers in God really always claim to be better than our non-believing counterparts??

true glo, Unfortunately there are strong believers who really work hard to make sure that they are not going against their religions instructions and there are those weak believers who still need much more to go on

From the few non-religious theists I've met, I think people who believe in god but not organized religions believe that their innate morality is basically god's user manual (isn't that what a Gnostic is?).

True, the human instinct is originally good one and aim to the peace and the goodness, but whats going on around this instinct is what affecting it and lead wrongly sometimes. Yeah, we might do many good things, we might come up with some really good rules by our own. Yet, we cant reach the perfection in setting the way of life. Human natures are surely has many weakness, that's why we need some upper level to control our lives,

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Sister, when atheists say you don't need a religion to understand God - then you ask them what their definition of religion is. In Islam, we need to understand who Allah is through revelation, through His Messengers' and from them we are able to understand who Allah is, what He wants from us, and what will help us reach our destination of Allah's pleasure and reward.

By saying that you can understand God without religion, then you're saying that you can understand God without guidance from Allah himself.


They may argue that you can, but its likely that they don't have a perfect system which covers all the ways of life which Islam teaches through one example (in our case, Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam)) - for them, they'll wander around blindly, not really being sure they're upon the truth since they will have to find their own answers for wrong and right, and they'll continuously live a life of contradiction on these issues since they won't be certain of what they believe, wandering to the left and sometimes to the right. This then isn't really a religion, but a selection of varying choices which the person keeps differing in. Whereas for a religion to be true, it has firm principles which the believer follows, a light so he can be sure what is right and what is wrong without contradiction and error.



That's why you need 'organized' religion which will be organized (not 'disorganised) so you know what is true, what is right, from falsehood and error. Otherwise you're just walking around blindly without a firm set truth. So you don't truly understand God, nor can you get close to Him, accept with a true Messenger who you don't doubt in his claim of Prophethood.


And Allah knows best.

[Danah]

:salamext:


Sister, when atheists say you don't need a religion to understand God - then you ask them what their definition of religion is. In Islam, we need to understand who Allah is through revelation, through His Messengers' and from them we are able to understand who Allah is, what He wants from us, and what will help us reach our destination of Allah's pleasure and reward.

By saying that you can understand God without religion, then you're saying that you can understand God without guidance from Allah himself.


They may argue that you can, but its likely that they don't have a perfect system which covers all the ways of life which Islam teaches through one example (in our case, Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam)) - for them, they'll wander around blindly, not really being sure they're upon the truth since they will have to find their own answers for wrong and right, and they'll continuously live a life of contradiction on these issues since they won't be certain of what they believe, wandering to the left and sometimes to the right. This then isn't really a religion, but a selection of varying choices which the person keeps differing in. Whereas for a religion to be true, it has firm principles which the believer follows, a light so he can be sure what is right and what is wrong without contradiction and error.



That's why you need 'organized' religion which will be organized (not 'disorganised) so you know what is true, what is right, from falsehood and error. Otherwise you're just walking around blindly without a firm set truth. So you don't truly understand God, nor can you get close to Him, accept with a true Messenger who you don't doubt in his claim of Prophethood.


And Allah knows best.

absolutely right, May allah reward you al jannah for this explanation brother. Human beings rules are im-perfect just as the human themselves to reach the perfection of the God rules. No human can be error-free. thats why we need superior regulations to guide us

[Danah]

Peace

this is just reminding me with glo thread about following a religion without believing God which is interesting topic as I see it.

my question is can we apply the concept that said the "good deeds have to be associated with faith" in order to combine both two cases together?

because it looks like we have one group are satisfied by religions teaching without believing the God which that religion approach while the other group are satisfied with the existence of God but prefer to do it on their own way

[S1aveofA11ah]

I have to say this point which I heard on a lecture by brother Abdur Raheem Green years ago. He stated (not exact words - just what stuck in my head over the many years):

"Everyone has a religion. Even the the person who says I don't believe in ANY God or ANY religion can be arguably described as being 'religiously unreligious". The point being that religion just means 'one's way of life' and EVRYONE who is alive HAS a way of life even if they are the most reclusive, remotely stationed human being out there who does little but eats, sleeps etc.

That's why I find it weird when people say they 'hate religion' or that 'religion causes all the wars in the world' and other ambigious generalisations like that.

[AntiKarateKid]

but dont we have to have religions to know the best way of reaching God..........

please sisters and brothers..........where are your posts?

Yes we do. Allah has shown us the PROPER path of reaching him. If a man is exposed to Islam and then rejects it but maintains that he "belives" in Allah, he will still be punished. He rejected the truth and followed his desires.

You cannot pick and choose faith in Allah. He has sent messengers to guide us and perfect our morals. If you choose to travel on your won, you will destroy yourself through your wilful ignorance.

[AntiKarateKid]

Peace

this is just reminding me with glo thread about following a religion without believing God which is interesting topic as I see it.

my question is can we apply the concept that said the "good deeds have to be associated with faith" in order to combine both two cases together?

because it looks like we have one group are satisfied by religions teaching without believing the God which that religion approach while the other group are satisfied with the existence of God but prefer to do it on their own way

HA! Prefer to do it their own way. This is an arrogant attitude. They reject truth in favor of their personal desires. They will wander in darkness until they die or their actions give them trouble and a wake up call.

[Woodrow]

I do not need a religion to believe in God(swt). but I do need Islam because I do believe in God(swt)

[glo]

I do not need a religion to believe in God(swt). but I do need Islam because I do believe in God(swt)

Interesting statement.

If you mean what I understand you to mean, then I have heard Christians say a similar thing.
If you define 'religion' to be a man-made construct of worshipping and serving God, then some Christians will assert that Christianity is not a religion - but a way of following the example of Jesusand being in relationship with God through Jesus.

The 'religious bits' - i.e. traditions and rituals - may have their place and be of benefit, but they are the 'man-made' parts and are therefore only tools.

peace

[Woodrow]

Interesting statement.

If you mean what I understand you to mean, then I have heard Christians say a similar thing.
If you define 'religion' to be a man-made construct of worshipping and serving God, then some Christians will assert that Christianity is not a religion - but a way of following the example of Jesusand being in relationship with God through Jesus.

The 'religious bits' - i.e. traditions and rituals - may have their place and be of benefit, but they are the 'man-made' parts and are therefore only tools.

peace

I believe you understood what I meant. to word it more simply, if a person sincerely believes in a supreme being, they will need a way to worship him. The belief will be the reason to seek the correct form of worship. I find that to be Islam.

But, I can see that a Christian would feel the same, and say they accept Christianity because they believe in God(swt).

[Wilma_Hum]

I believe you understood what I meant. to word it more simply, if a person sincerely believes in a supreme being, they will need a way to worship him. The belief will be the reason to seek the correct form of worship. I find that to be Islam.

But, I can see that a Christian would feel the same, and say they accept Christianity because they believe in God(swt).

What I see/think is when people believe they have found the "True Religion", that religion shows them the right way to worship god.

But usually agnostics don't believe there is a "True Religion". So as an agnostic, I do not look for any religion to tell me how to worship, I look into my heart.

[wth1257]

Asalam Alykom every one.

just a quick question I read in a site......

do people need to have a religion in order to believe in God?
I mean I heard of deists who are believing in God but don't follow any religion.

I think having a religion is ruling and organizing the way you believe in your God...

so what do you think guys...I need your opinions

No such religion has ever survived. Deism had its heyday in the 18th century but is no longer a major movement. Say what you want about Islam it has survived 1400 years, and still is expanding in face of globalization and the tide of secularism.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I've known lots of people who are theists but who don't follow an organised religion. There's a clear distinction between believing in or denying the existence of god and following or ignoring an established religion.

wth makes an interesting point when he says: "no such religion has survived". How is it that religions have survived?

I could decide, for example, that the sun is the ultimate source of life on Earth, and make up my own rituals to worship the sun. That could be my self-invented religion, but nobody else would be required to follow it, unless I decided that they should.

Is it fair to say that it's the establishment of a religion that, more than anything, ensures its survival?

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

What I see/think is when people believe they have found the "True Religion", that religion shows them the right way to worship god.

But usually agnostics don't believe there is a "True Religion". So as an agnostic, I do not look for any religion to tell me how to worship, I look into my heart.

Wow. Your heart huh?

"Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Quran, or are their hearts locked up by them?" Quran 47:24

If your heart was truly open, you would have found the right religion by now.

You follow nothing but your personal desires.

[K.Venugopal]

... if a person sincerely believes in a supreme being, they will need a way to worship him.

Why the need to worship the Supreme Being? Is it a spontaneous and natural need or does it arise out of the fear that if we do not worship Him He will send us to hell?

[K.Venugopal]

"Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Quran, or are their hearts locked up by them?" Quran 47:24

Elsewhere Allah says that He locks up the hearts of whom He wishes to lead astray. “Allah has sent down the Best Speech, a Book, its parts consistent with each other, oft repeated. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it. Thereafter, their skins and hearts soften to the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah. He guides with it whom He wills and whosoever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide." (az Zumar 39:23) Allah, it appears, simply hates those who do not worship Him.

[AntiKarateKid]

Elsewhere Allah says that He locks up the hearts of whom He wishes to lead astray. “Allah has sent down the Best Speech, a Book, its parts consistent with each other, oft repeated. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it. Thereafter, their skins and hearts soften to the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah. He guides with it whom He wills and whosoever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide." (az Zumar 39:23) Allah, it appears, simply hates those who do not worship Him.

*{Indeed Allah does not wrong the people at all, it is they wrong their own selves.}* (Yunus 10: 44)

Sigh. For a person who has 164 posts, you sure do come across as the regular cut and paste attacker.

Do you really, honestly think that despite all the threads on this forum, and all the websites on the internet explaining the "free will vs divine will" issue, you could just copy and paste 1 verse and claim that Allah hates.

Come back with a coherent argument which is worthy of refuting.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

This is a poor translation of the verse in the Qur'an. If you refer to Yusuf Ali's translation to this verse, you will find a more accurate translation from linguistic and semantic perspectives.

According to Yusuf Ali's translation, (But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases.) (An-Nahl 16: 93). Thus, Allah does not mislead or misguide, but when the servant chooses the path of righteousness and strives towards it, Allah helps him. Allah says, (And Allah advances in guidance those who seek guidance.) (Maryam 19: 76) However, if the servant chooses the path of misguidance after Allah has shown him the path of guidance, then in this case Allah "leaves" him to his choice. This is also mentioned in the Qur'an: (We shall leave them in their mischief, to wander in distraction.) (Al-An'am 6: 110)

There is a big difference between "leaving the sinner in his or her misguidance" and "misguiding him or her". Leaving the sinner in misguidance is a sort of punishment for the bad choice he or she has taken. Therefore, the choice is ours, and whoever chooses to be righteous, Allah will help him, but whoever chooses otherwise, there is a danger that Allah will leave him stray –Allah the Just, does not mislead or misguide.

Worship in Islam consists of not only praying, but good works, speaking the truth, forbidding falsehood. That type of stuff, so yes, Allah dislikes the people in who do not do such things.



http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...eople_to_sin__

see this too for your claims

[AntiKarateKid]

Why the need to worship the Supreme Being? Is it a spontaneous and natural need or does it arise out of the fear that if we do not worship Him He will send us to hell?

*{Who receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit: who goes astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning.}* (Al-Israa' 17:15)

It is for your own benefit that you seek him. The purpose of your life is to do what is right, not what your own misguided desires might say. WHen you draw closer, you fulfill your human nature and become truly human by acting as a servant of Allah and enjoining right and forbidding wrong and leading life with a true purpose and knowledge.

No soul is burdened beyond what it can handle. Therefore, if you fail this test of life and go to hell, you can only blame yourself.

[Wilma_Hum]

Wow. Your heart huh?

"Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Quran, or are their hearts locked up by them?" Quran 47:24

If your heart was truly open, you would have found the right religion by now.

You follow nothing but your personal desires.

You seam to be real nastey because I don't believe what you believe.

Why is that?

You operate under the openion that there is a true religion, I don't.

Why do you have a problem with that and why do you feel the need to attack?

[Danah]

That could be my self-invented religion, but nobody else would be required to follow it, unless I decided that they should.

Peace

I wonder if humans can guarantee that their standards of life will not go astray even for a moment?

I think there is a point from religions besides believing in God. If each one on the face of this earth decided that way? how the world will be looks like?
So its a way to show the unity among people from different races. Like we have Muslims, Christians .....etc around the world and they are all have the same thoughts, thats something making the people close to each other

I cant imagine a world where each single human have his own standards

Why the need to worship the Supreme Being? Is it a spontaneous and natural need or does it arise out of the fear that if we do not worship Him He will send us to hell?

Its more like showing that supreme being our respect and gratefulness to create us in this world and to grant us all things around us.

[Woodrow]

Why the need to worship the Supreme Being? Is it a spontaneous and natural need or does it arise out of the fear that if we do not worship Him He will send us to hell?

Acknowledgment of a Supreme Being carries with it the knowledge that we are not the center of the universe and we are subject to the will of a higher authority.

We can live in fear, love or hate of that will. Or even a combination. But, at some point we come to the realization that we are subject to it and that our life is smoother if we live in accordance with it. That living in accordance with it is worship.

I sincerely believe that Allaah(swt) has revealed himself to us through the Prophets(PBUH) and has given us guidance as to what is expected from us, that guidance is what is the basis for my particular form of worship.

There are those who have not found guidance or have found improper guidance, but their actions in life, even if they do not realize it, are worship. Although their worship may be an act of fear or even hate and may be leading to an unwanted end.

[Muezzin]

Asalam Alykom every one.

just a quick question I read in a site......

do people need to have a religion in order to believe in God?

It is possible to believe in the existence of God without following organised religion.

I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying.

I do think that if you believe in the God of an organised religion, as that religion defines God, you may as well live your life accordingly. :)

[AntiKarateKid]

You seam to be real nastey because I don't believe what you believe.

Why is that?

You operate under the openion that there is a true religion, I don't.

Why do you have a problem with that and why do you feel the need to attack?

Forgive me. That was not an attack. You are indeed following your own desires. What else? You say you "look into your heart." Either you acknowledge moral relativism or you acknowledge receiving this sense from a higher power. I have heard your position many times before and that is my answer. Everyone I have met who has expressed this view has used it as a crutch so as not to make the extra effort to find Allah, being safe in their own bubble and thinking that they are more moral than even the Prophets. If this does not apply to you, then I am glad and I will remember to tone my words down.

[Wilma_Hum]

Forgive me. That was not an attack. You are indeed following your own desires. What else? You say you "look into your heart." Either you acknowledge moral relativism or you acknowledge receiving this sense from a higher power. I have heard your position many times before and that is my answer. Everyone I have met who has expressed this view has used it as a crutch so as not to make the extra effort to find Allah, being safe in their own bubble and thinking that they are more moral than even the Prophets. If this does not apply to you, then I am glad and I will remember to tone my words down.

Well then, forgive me for assuming it was. :)

You said “Everyone I have met who has expressed this view has used it as a crutch so as not to make the extra effort to find Allah”.
Well now you have met your exception. I was not born agnostic nor did I come to that conclusion easily or with out a lot of thought. I was born and raised a devout Catholic. As an adult I found that the stories I was told about god and the nature of god did not match. The more I thought and read about it, the more mismatches I found. I did look at other religions and I found the same mismatches. That’s how I became an agnostic.

I truly mean this constructively. Maybe what you need to do is not “tone your words down” but to ask questions instead of assuming you understand.

I have zero interest in trying to change how you feel about your beliefs but I would gladly help you understand how others feel about there’s.

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Well then, forgive me for assuming it was. :)

You said “Everyone I have met who has expressed this view has used it as a crutch so as not to make the extra effort to find Allah”.
Well now you have met your exception. I was not born agnostic nor did I come to that conclusion easily or with out a lot of thought. I was born and raised a devout Catholic. As an adult I found that the stories I was told about god and the nature of god did not match. The more I thought and read about it, the more mismatches I found. I did look at other religions and I found the same mismatches. That’s how I became an agnostic.

I truly mean this constructively. Maybe what you need to do is not “tone your words down” but to ask questions instead of assuming you understand.

I have zero interest in trying to change how you feel about your beliefs but I would gladly help you understand how others feel about there’s.

Peace

By all means, let us enlighten each other. Though my previous statement still stands. The Prophet's of Allah were the best of creation (barring those stories about incest and drunkenness I saw in the Bible which I reject). My belief is that without following this standard of perfection that Allah sent, you cannot be as moral as you can be. Furthermore, if you are not doing good deeds for the sake of Allah, you are doing them for some worldly benefit, like feeling good about yourself, etc etc. Their actions were absolute good, and if someone does something contrary, then they are sinning and following their own whims.

Back on topic though, why is it that no atheist human or agnostic human ever, in history led a life like the Prophets of Allah? I challenge you to find a better example for humanity than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Perhaps this statement from the Muslims who sought protection from the Negus from the Meccans may make my point better.

"O King, we were plunged in the depth of ignorance and barbarism, we adored idols, we led an unchaste life, we ate dead bodies and we spoke abominations, we disregarded every feeling of humanity and sense of duty towards our neighbors and we knew no law but that of the strong. Allah raised among us a man, whose birth, truthfulness, honesty and purity we were well aware of. He called us to profess the Unity of Allah (The Oneness of God) and taught us to associate nothing with Him. He forbade us the worship of idols and enjoined to speak the truth, to be faithful to our trusts, to be merciful and to regard the rights of neighbors; he forbade us from the worship of idols of wood and stone and to abstain from evil. He commanded us to offer prayers, to give alms (to the poor and the needy) and to observe the fasting. We have believed in him, we have accepted his teachings and his injunctions to worship Allah alone and to associate nothing with Him. Hence our people have persecuted us, trying to force us to abandon the worship of Allah and to return to the worship of idols of wood and stone..... They have tortured us and injured us until we came to your kingdom seeking protection against their persecution."

Who else could accomplish such a task without a single mistake than the Prophets of Allah.:peace:

[Wilma_Hum]

By all means, let us enlighten each other. Though my previous statement still stands. The Prophet's of Allah were the best of creation (barring those stories about incest and drunkenness I saw in the Bible which I reject). My belief is that without following this standard of perfection that Allah sent, you cannot be as moral as you can be. Furthermore, if you are not doing good deeds for the sake of Allah, you are doing them for some worldly benefit, like feeling good about yourself, etc etc. Their actions were absolute good, and if someone does something contrary, then they are sinning and following their own whims.

Back on topic though, why is it that no atheist human or agnostic human ever, in history led a life like the Prophets of Allah? I challenge you to find a better example for humanity than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Perhaps this statement from the Muslims who sought protection from the Negus from the Meccans may make my point better.

"O King, we were plunged in the depth of ignorance and barbarism, we adored idols, we led an unchaste life, we ate dead bodies and we spoke abominations, we disregarded every feeling of humanity and sense of duty towards our neighbors and we knew no law but that of the strong. Allah raised among us a man, whose birth, truthfulness, honesty and purity we were well aware of. He called us to profess the Unity of Allah (The Oneness of God) and taught us to associate nothing with Him. He forbade us the worship of idols and enjoined to speak the truth, to be faithful to our trusts, to be merciful and to regard the rights of neighbors; he forbade us from the worship of idols of wood and stone and to abstain from evil. He commanded us to offer prayers, to give alms (to the poor and the needy) and to observe the fasting. We have believed in him, we have accepted his teachings and his injunctions to worship Allah alone and to associate nothing with Him. Hence our people have persecuted us, trying to force us to abandon the worship of Allah and to return to the worship of idols of wood and stone..... They have tortured us and injured us until we came to your kingdom seeking protection against their persecution."

Who else could accomplish such a task without a single mistake than the Prophets of Allah.:peace:

Enlighten each other? You use your faith as fact. You present evidence from sources that I conceder totally bias and has nothing to with reality.

Since I don't believe god sends prophets I don't have a "Book" that I can claim is the truth.

But posts like yours is helpful. The main reason I came here was to help me understand Muslims. So posts like yours is quite helpful.

Thanks
Wilma

[Argamemnon]

Back on topic though, why is it that no atheist human or agnostic human ever, in history led a life like the Prophets of Allah? I challenge you to find a better example for humanity than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

The prophets can't be compared to ordinary people. There is not a single Muslim who lives like the prophets did. Besides, not all Muslims are good people, not at all. I know atheists whom I trust more than the Muslims I know. There are good and bad people everywhere. But "good" in the eyes of Allah is another subject; if you don't believe in God, your good deeds won't save you as is clearly mentioned in the Quran. Some people might ask "Why is that?".. Well, I don't know, because God says so..

[Civilsed]

:sl:

ٱلۡيَوۡمَ أَكۡمَلۡتُ لَكُمۡ دِينَكُمۡ وَأَتۡمَمۡتُ عَلَيۡكُمۡ نِعۡمَتِى وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ ٱلۡإِسۡلَـٰمَ دِينً۬ا*

Allah says (to all mankind)in the Holy Quran " This day i have perfect for you your religion and have completed my favour upon you and have chosen Islam as you religion"



First point,

"This day i have perfected for you your religion" as Muslims need to ensure that we practice NO innovations. As by following innovations you are indirectly saying that Allah's religion was not perfected the religion.

Second point

"and have completed my favour upon you". For this we this to give thanks to Allah, as here he states that has ompleted his favour i.e. given us what we need (The Quran and sent us our beloved prophet Mohammed as our Messenger & teacher)to enter Jenna (Heaven).

Third Point

"and have chosen Islam as you religion". This show that Allah has given us islam and if followed with granted us Jenna (heavan).

Note: This Verse has been revealed to all of mankind.

Allah (SWT) have given us a religion to follow through His prophets and books and Allah (SWT) says"and have completed my favour upon you" The Religion of Islam gives us the tools if you like to atain Jennah.

Although belief in Allah is important (VERY). Allah has also told us to obey Mohammed (PBUH) making the Quran and the sunnah the requirement and this is religion.

[K.Venugopal]

"This day i have perfected for you your religion"

Can you please tell me which day is meant by "this day"?

[aamirsaab]

Can you please tell me which day is meant by "this day"?

According to all available traditions, the verse above [Surah 5 verse 3 ''This day i have perfect for you your religion and have completed my favour upon you and have chosen Islam as you religion"] was
revealed at Mount Arafat in the afternoon of Friday, the 9th of
Dhul-Hijjah, shortly before the death of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be
upon him). Standing in prayer at Arafat on the 9th of Dhul-Hijjah, is
considered the most important part of Hajj.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.religion.islam/2006-01/msg00751.html