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sister herb
11-22-2008, 08:19 PM
Settlers in Hebron right graffiti on mosque walls insulting Islam, calling for killing Arabs
Saturday November 22, 2008 20:52 by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies

A group of extremist Israeli settlers wrote graffiti on the walls on the Al Ras Mosque, in the southern West Bank city of Hebron, calling for killing all Arabs and insulting Islam and Prophet Mohammad. The settlers also dumped trash into the mosque and uprooted dozens of olive trees.

The recent attack was carried out as the settlers “were expressing” their rejection to evacuation a Palestinian house adjacent to the mosque. The settlers illegally occupied the property on March 19 and the Israeli Supreme Court recently decided that they should evacuate it. The house in question belongs to Al Rajabi family.

Local sources in Hebron reported that the settlers also desecrated graves in the Islamic Graveyard and hurled stones at dozens of Palestinian vehicles and homes in the city.

Most of the attacks were concentrated in Al Ja’bary neighborhood, Wadi Al Nasarah, Wadi Al Hasseen, and Jabal Jalis.

Several residents in Hebron complained that they became imprisoned in their homes, cannot leave them as they will be subjected to assaults and abuse by the settlers.

Hebron governor Dr. Hussein Al A’raj demanded the Israeli occupation forces to implement the Israeli court’s ruling and evacuate the settlers from the house of Al Rajabi.

“This is unimaginable; the settlers are desecrating the graves, writing graffiti insulting the prophet and insulting Islam”, the governor stated, “the high court issued several rulings to evacuate the house, to reopen roads the army and the settlers closed, but the army does not care and continues to protect the settlers who are attacking us, our graves, our homes, holy sites and lands”.

The settlers yet continue to ignore the decision of the Supreme Court as it stated in its last week’s ruling that they should voluntarily evacuate the four-story house within days.

A statement issued by the office of the Israeli Deputy Defense Minister, Matan Vilnai, said that the court ordered the evacuation of the settlers from the Palestinian house but the settlers ignored the ruling.

Consecutive Israeli governments traditionally avoid taking action against the radical and armed Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank. This issue enabled the settlers to keep and even expand dozens of illegal settlement outposts.

http://www.imemc.org/article/57766
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aamirsaab
11-22-2008, 09:12 PM
:sl:
They have then no right to complain and whine when Palestinians retaliate.

But obviously, all this stuff is swept under the carpet and when the innevitable retaliation occurs, only then the world looks and points and condemns.
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Sahabiyaat
11-23-2008, 11:13 AM
the order to evacuate is voluntary? so how can you expect them to obey if there are no consequences?.

so you kick me out of my house and when i retaliate, you throw a tantrum? i really dont undersatnd how a jewsish mind works........

the jews were better in a diaspora, where they were getting their butts kicked left rigt and center, atleast somebody kept them in check.
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north_malaysian
11-23-2008, 11:38 AM
Again, I quote my good Israeli friend from Jerusalem (who is pro-Palestinian):

[PIE]"The mainstream Israelis are like brainless sheeps, they just listen whatever the government want them to listen only."[/PIE]
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sister herb
11-23-2008, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Again, I quote my good Israeli friend from Jerusalem (who is pro-Palestinian):

[PIE]"The mainstream Israelis are like brainless sheeps, they just listen whatever the government want them to listen only."[/PIE]
:sl:

I agree about that one; problem is not jews but zionists.

imsad
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AvarAllahNoor
11-23-2008, 08:55 PM
Oh dear. More trouble eh.
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Zahida
11-23-2008, 08:59 PM
:sl: Astagfaar...............................:w:
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Suomipoika
11-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
They have then no right to complain and whine when Palestinians retaliate.

But obviously, all this stuff is swept under the carpet and when the innevitable retaliation occurs, only then the world looks and points and condemns.
What a joke. Stop with the victim card already. How is killing people anyway comparable to any of the actions described in the article? If you have some other innevitable retaliation in mind, then Im really curious and please someone tell me when was the last time any actions such as or similar to described in the article that did not include violence done towards jews by palestinians that gained worldwide recognition and condemnation? Prove me wrong.

If the innevitable retaliation is indeed violence, then the murdering terrorists need to be condemned and Im really glad that the world still sees the difference between really really horribly evil (violence, killing) and somewhat evil (occupying house, graffiti, insulting).
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nocturnal
11-23-2008, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
What a joke. Stop with the victim card already. How is killing people anyway comparable to any of the actions described in the article? If you have some other innevitable retaliation in mind, then Im really curious and please someone tell me when was the last time any actions such as or similar to described in the article that did not include violence done towards jews by palestinians that gained worldwide recognition and condemnation? Prove me wrong.

If the innevitable retaliation is indeed violence, then the murdering terrorists need to be condemned and Im really glad that the world still sees the difference between really really horribly evil (violence, killing) and somewhat evil (occupying house, graffiti, insulting).
This has to be the most pathetic piece of text posted in response to this article. The graffiti and vandalising of Palestinian property is only a tiny speck of what it represents in a wider context. These people (Settlers) represent the growing erosion of Palestinian rights and land. The uprooting of Olive plants is symbolic of the plight of the Palestinian people. When the retaliation he talks about does occur, it is primarily be cause of large scale israeli incursions into Gaza and the West Bank (which is where Hebron is), that are meant to instill terror into the Palestinain people and part of a ceaselees campaign of systematic persecution. He is talking about it in that specific broader context.

So why don't you as difficult as this may be for you, try and perhaps think before you post such vapid nonsense.
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Suomipoika
11-23-2008, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
This has to be the most pathetic piece of text posted in response to this article. The graffiti and vandalising of Palestinian property is only a tiny speck of what it represents in a wider context. These people (Settlers) represent the growing erosion of Palestinian rights and land. The uprooting of Olive plants is symbolic of the plight of the Palestinian people. When the retaliation he talks about does occur, it is primarily be cause of large scale israeli incursions into Gaza and the West Bank (which is where Hebron is), that are meant to instill terror into the Palestinain people and part of a ceaselees campaign of systematic persecution. He is talking about it in that specific broader context.

So why don't you as difficult as this may be for you, try and perhaps think before you post such vapid nonsense.
Shouldnt thinking in the wider context go both ways? Not only revel in the victimisation of Palestinians. Why should the innevitable retaliation be seen in wider context if the actions of the settlers obviously were not?
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aamirsaab
11-23-2008, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
What a joke. Stop with the victim card already. How is killing people anyway comparable to any of the actions described in the article? If you have some other innevitable retaliation in mind, then Im really curious and please someone tell me when was the last time any actions such as or similar to described in the article that did not include violence done towards jews by palestinians that gained worldwide recognition and condemnation? Prove me wrong.

If the innevitable retaliation is indeed violence, then the murdering terrorists need to be condemned and Im really glad that the world still sees the difference between really really horribly evil (violence, killing) and somewhat evil (occupying house, graffiti, insulting).
I don't condone the violence done by either of the two parties, I'm merely saying that there is clear bias and hypocricy when it comes to this conflict. People in general don't give a **** about the Palestinians; why would they? They're just some back-water, stuck in the dark ages civilisation that needs to be put in its place for DARING to retaliate against a regime that is seemingly hell-bent on destroying it!

It is always the case that palestine is bad and israel is good at least in terms of media and social reception. Now you probably think I'm just playing the victim card, well guess what: palestine has become a victim, so what am I supposed to do? Pretend like everything is fine and dandy - oh it's just graffiti, oh it's just another attack on innocent civilians, oh don't worry they'll live? No. Being a human means that I feel something when someone dies. What may seem like a number to you, is not a number to me; Why is this, you may ask? It is because I value life at such a high degree - higher than most people do. So when I hear about this particular issue, each and every time it is difficult. I want to deny it, I want to pretend that it's just a fairytale that happens in some far away land but I cannot - all I can do is shift it from my mind so I can live throughout the day without going into manic depression.

You see, my respect for life is bittersweet; I have such love and joy for it that whenever it is ended in such a terrible way, it is deeply upsetting. So do forgive me for ''playing the victim card'' when HUMAN beings (our brothers and sisters in HUMANITY!) are being killed (the poorest of all might I add!) and all anyone wants to do is pussyfoot around the issue, point-scoring all the way!

p.s; I'm sorry if this post has offended anyone.
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nocturnal
11-24-2008, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Shouldnt thinking in the wider context go both ways? Not only revel in the victimisation of Palestinians. Why should the innevitable retaliation be seen in wider context if the actions of the settlers obviously were not?
The settlers are occupying Palestinian land, Israel has over the past 60 years violated international law numerous times. It is the job of the israeli authorities to restrain these settlers, not tacitly condone their actions by sanctioning increased settlement on occupied Palestinian land, and than duplicitously decieve the international community by asserting that they are committed to a 2 state solution. That is the context that the discourse should be framed in. The Palestinians are an occupied people.

If, in apartheid South Africa, the authorities allowed while militas to maraud through a shanty town vandalising property and despoil the livelihood of an already desperate population, would you still insist that the problem should be viewed in a perverse context that portrays the aggressor as the victim.

There is NO wider context to the actions of the settlers, these are unprincipled, feral and zealous savages who care nothing about the lives of the Palestinians. And likewise the Israelis do not either, which is why there are as many soliders as settlers if not more assigned to protect them.
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nocturnal
11-24-2008, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
The settlers are occupying Palestinian land, Israel has over the past 60 years violated international law numerous times. It is the job of the israeli authorities to restrain these settlers, not tacitly condone their actions by sanctioning increased settlement on occupied Palestinian land, and than duplicitously decieve the international community by asserting that they are committed to a 2 state solution. That is the context that the discourse should be framed in. The Palestinians are an occupied people.

If, in apartheid South Africa, the authorities allowed while militas to maraud through a shanty town vandalising property and despoil the livelihood of an already desperate population, would you still insist that the problem should be viewed in a perverse context that portrays the aggressor as the victim.

There is NO wider context to the actions of the settlers, these are unprincipled, feral and zealous savages who care nothing about the lives of the Palestinians. And likewise the Israeli government does not either, which is why there are as many soliders as settlers if not more assigned to protect them.
People need to be conscious of the double standards here.
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Suomipoika
11-24-2008, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I don't condone the violence done by either of the two parties, I'm merely saying that there is clear bias and hypocricy when it comes to this conflict. People in general don't give a **** about the Palestinians; why would they? They're just some back-water, stuck in the dark ages civilisation that needs to be put in its place for DARING to retaliate against a regime that is seemingly hell-bent on destroying it!

It is always the case that palestine is bad and israel is good at least in terms of media and social reception. Now you probably think I'm just playing the victim card, well guess what: palestine has become a victim, so what am I supposed to do? Pretend like everything is fine and dandy - oh it's just graffiti, oh it's just another attack on innocent civilians, oh don't worry they'll live? No. Being a human means that I feel something when someone dies. What may seem like a number to you, is not a number to me; Why is this, you may ask? It is because I value life at such a high degree - higher than most people do. So when I hear about this particular issue, each and every time it is difficult. I want to deny it, I want to pretend that it's just a fairytale that happens in some far away land but I cannot - all I can do is shift it from my mind so I can live throughout the day without going into manic depression.

You see, my respect for life is bittersweet; I have such love and joy for it that whenever it is ended in such a terrible way, it is deeply upsetting. So do forgive me for ''playing the victim card'' when HUMAN beings (our brothers and sisters in HUMANITY!) are being killed (the poorest of all might I add!) and all anyone wants to do is pussyfoot around the issue, point-scoring all the way!

p.s; I'm sorry if this post has offended anyone.
Have you ever had such reaction when there was news about wrongdoings of palestinians? Did you also feel, now those palestinians have no place to whine when the innevitable israeli retaliation comes? I know Ive never seen anything like that in here when israelis/randon non-muslims were victims of self-proclaimed muslims. Why dont non-muslim victims cause such outrage?

Most of the world (muslims/christians/atheist etc) cares just as much about palestinias as they for example care about some random africans. None at all. Can you tell the different ethnic group names/sides in various conflicts around the world without googling, especially those in Africa? I know I cant. At the very least I know who palestinians and israelis are, same cannot be said about sides in many conflicts. Or do you care about the victims of conflicts around the world and actually know who they are? Do you speak for them as much as you speak for palestinians?

My opinion of the conflict. There are victims in both sides in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, but palestinians as hole are not it. As long as they resort to terrorism and violence there is only one group that they can blame for their misery. That group is palestinians. Both sides are so busy killing eachothers children and crying wolf, that most of the world is doing their best ignoring it. I find it ironic that both those who side with palestinians and those who side with israelis keep complaining about media bias.

You speak of hypocrisy, Im tired of the hypocrisy around this issue among muslims, wrongdoings of palestinians are ignored or horrifyingly justified. This thread is really one more of those "we are the victims mantras". Yet somehow eventho all the terrorism perpetrated by palestinians I am supposed to take sides with them, because they are the victims and its the right thing to do. Same mantras with slight variations can be heard when we go look for places where Israel is supported.

Originally Posted by nocturnal
The settlers are occupying Palestinian land, Israel has over the past 60 years violated international law numerous times. It is the job of the israeli authorities to restrain these settlers, not tacitly condone their actions by sanctioning increased settlement on occupied Palestinian land, and than duplicitously decieve the international community by asserting that they are committed to a 2 state solution. That is the context that the discourse should be framed in. The Palestinians are an occupied people.

If, in apartheid South Africa, the authorities allowed while militas to maraud through a shanty town vandalising property and despoil the livelihood of an already desperate population, would you still insist that the problem should be viewed in a perverse context that portrays the aggressor as the victim.

There is NO wider context to the actions of the settlers, these are unprincipled, feral and zealous savages who care nothing about the lives of the Palestinians. And likewise the Israelis do not either, which is why there are as many soliders as settlers if not more assigned to protect them.
This reminds me of Borat. Wider context ends at jews.
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جوري
11-24-2008, 12:55 AM
sumo you are a funny character why don't you try your sickening sanctimonious bull on another forum?

If you care so much for Africans and care to learn of them without googling, then enroll in a class or join their forum.. this is a forum by Muslims, for Muslims, concerned for the affairs of Muslims..

by the way wasn't Hebron the same place a Jew opened fire on praying Muslims during Ramadan?

here I spared you googling

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...s_/ai_16809782

that does go beyond graffiti in your book, or doesn't count as usual because they are Muslim?

what a sickening troll you are!
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nocturnal
11-24-2008, 01:13 AM
This so called "violence" perpetrated by the Palestinians that you talk about is the defense of their land. Recently, there were protests in the West Bank at the construction of a partition wall which will keep the Palestinans away from their land, from their livelihood. Scuffles erupted and tear gas cannisters were shot. What would you do if you and your family were constantly humiliated and subjected to the ignonminy of having to watch your means of living, your identity, your country, arbitrarily pillaged on a daily basis?

You talk about the hypocrisy of the Palestinians? their wrong doings? care to elaborate upon exactly what their wrongdoings are? the fact that they remain committed to the resistance, is this wrongdoing? the fact that despite the overwhelming number of murders committed by the IDF against Palestinians, you insist on saying oh hang on, what about the poor folks in sderot and ashkelon, but you don't look at what causes retaliatory action.

This is a quote from Nelson Mandela speaking about his experience in the ANC:

"At the beginning of June, 1961, after a long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I, and some colleagues, came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the Government met our peaceful demands with force. This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkonto We Sizwe. We did so not because we desired such a course, but solely because the government had left us with no other choice.”

The Palestinians are doing what is not only their God given right (to fight for their land), but also enshrined in international law. The same international law that is relentlessly flouted by israel and it's prime benefactor, the US.
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جوري
11-24-2008, 03:08 AM
sumo is one of the forum twits who is persistent in criticism and carping Muslims..
I am NEVER keen on ganging up on people and agreeing with another poster to make someone feel insignificant, but here is one fool I wouldn't mind the forum do without!

I am so sick of his ilk, so common on every forum and in the news.. one wonders if they've ever picked up a history book or traveled beyond their backyard before disgorging out of their *** most of what they write!
yet has the nerve to sit here and preach of Africans.. well if you are so concerned try writing your congressman protesting that the little colonial zionist states gets funneled more money than all of Africa combined ey?
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Gator
11-24-2008, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
They have then no right to complain and whine when Palestinians retaliate.
I agree!!!!

MY GOD!!! THIS definitely deserves a bus load of Israeli children who had nothing to do with this spray painting to be blown up and killed. If there is justice, these children should be burned and then allowed to suffer for a number of days and then die.

Hopefully, a lot of Israeli children will die after horribly suffering because of a little spray paint in the name of Allah, the most merciful.

[probably goodbye]
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جوري
11-24-2008, 04:02 AM
I wouldn't worry about the Israeli children..
they seem to have an abundance of bombs to kill Muslim kids right in their back yards?







ahhhhhh.. aren't they cute?





our kids.. seem to be worth so much less.. hmm

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Gator
11-24-2008, 04:14 AM
Skye,
Thanks for agreeing that children should be counted as legitimate targets.

Obviously, from the few pictures you've posted, all kids deserve to die because of the stupidity of the adults.

Great job in justifiying this endless cycle of violence!

Thanks!
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جوري
11-24-2008, 04:20 AM
Thanks for reading between the lines professor Layton.
As I have too deduced from yours... to hell with Muslims and their kids it is all about the zionists!

if Israeli's don't like it there, they should take their colonial settler state and set house else where? WWII and the massacres of Jews isn't a Palestinian problem -- It is a European one.. rather than take a lesson from history and what they themselves suffered, they'd rather inflict on folks whom they are constantly mowing down and displacing from their homes..

If you think you are going to guilt me into representing your ill thought self-righteous sentiment.. you are mistaken.. I have actually been there, and I have friends from there--unlike most of you, I actually have a clue what goes on there compared to what your media w hores shove down your throats which you apparently so happily accept!


pls give me a break!
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aamirsaab
11-24-2008, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Have you ever had such reaction when there was news about wrongdoings of palestinians? Did you also feel, now those palestinians have no place to whine when the innevitable israeli retaliation comes?
You miss my point; it is one-sided all the way. The only thing that is shouted is Palestinian-suicide bomber. Never Israel blows up a school or kills children with sub-machine guns for going to school!

I know Ive never seen anything like that in here when israelis/randon non-muslims were victims of self-proclaimed muslims. Why dont non-muslim victims cause such outrage?
Oh I don't know, maybe because they aren't being slaughtered?

Or do you care about the victims of conflicts around the world and actually know who they are? Do you speak for them as much as you speak for palestinians?
Any and every civilian that has died is whom I speak for. Especially those in 3rd world countries.

My opinion of the conflict. There are victims in both sides in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, but palestinians as hole are not it. As long as they resort to terrorism and violence there is only one group that they can blame for their misery. That group is palestinians.
This is exactly the hypocrisy I am speaking of; if Palestine can be considered terrorists, than so can Israel. Don't single one out for crimes against humanity when the other is doing just as bad.


Originally Posted by Gator
I agree!!!!

MY GOD!!! THIS definitely deserves a bus load of Israeli children who had nothing to do with this spray painting to be blown up and killed. If there is justice, these children should be burned and then allowed to suffer for a number of days and then die.
Like I said I don't condone any of the violence. But, If you crap in someone elses yard, don't expect a thank you note and don't be suprised when they retaliate.

Hopefully, a lot of Israeli children will die after horribly suffering because of a little spray paint in the name of Allah, the most merciful.
Don't put words into my mouth. Oh and btw, they also trashed a place of worship - yeah clearly the signs of people who aren't terrorists in the slightest. So, are you going to condemn these actions or are you going to point-score as most people do when it comes to this issue. In any case, my point was: what goes around comes around; the bully has no right to cry when his/her victim smacks them right back in the face. No right.
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Sahabiyaat
11-24-2008, 09:42 AM
im doing my dissertation on muslim perspectives on the holocaust, and one of things i look at is why the MCB has boycotted Holocaust Memorial Day until last year, one the reasons being that it doesnt make mention of tthe palestnian genocide.

Jews, however fail to even begin calling it a genocide!.....saying all the thats going on is not genocidal.Funny thing i came accross the defintiion of genocide that they THEMSELVES give;

Consider: The second article of the UN's Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as such:

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:"

# (a) Killing members of the group;

(that happens everyday!)

# (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(this also happpens everyday)

# (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(cutting off electricity, blocking aid,building walls, uprooting trees that are their livelyhood, ....?)

# (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(killing off all the males...)

# (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
.

(So many palestinian children in prisons...)

funny isnt it? .they define the above as genocide and claim NONE of this is going on in Palestine, were just imagining it, because were high on the coke they make or something :muddlehea
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Keltoi
11-24-2008, 12:11 PM
In the United States and elsewhere this would be considered a hate crime.
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aamirsaab
11-24-2008, 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
In the United States and elsewhere this would be considered a hate crime.
I'm glad it is. Now maybe the US gov'ment can put some pressure on Israel to ensure this kind of stuff doesn't happen again.
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Suomipoika
11-24-2008, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You miss my point; it is one-sided all the way. The only thing that is shouted is Palestinian-suicide bomber. Never Israel blows up a school or kills children with sub-machine guns for going to school!
You must have missed a hole lot of news. If you were Israeli supporter your arguement would be quite similar. This time it would be a whine about how media portrays israelis as evil occupier, bad settlers and collective punishers and never about the rocket fire and suicide-bombers. Both sides whine extremely about the one-sidedness of the media. Honestly I see plenty of news of wrongdoings from both, but for some reason depending on your side, quite many people seem to register only half of the news.

Oh I don't know, maybe because they aren't being slaughtered?
Really? What do you call victims of suicide bombers, rocket fire and those random acts of violence like the school attack you mentioned? They werent slaughtered?

Any and every civilian that has died is whom I speak for. Especially those in 3rd world countries.
But you didnt answer my question. Can you honestly say you know all the ethnicities and sides and who started and did what in those conflicts? Do you care enough about them so that you know who and what they are. Or are you just like the rest of the world, speak nice words for 3rd world when asked but dont really care at all?

This is exactly the hypocrisy I am speaking of; if Palestine can be considered terrorists, than so can Israel. Don't single one out for crimes against humanity when the other is doing just as bad.
Bit selective in your quoting, arent we? This is also what I said:

Originally Posted by me
Both sides are so busy killing eachothers children and crying wolf, that most of the world is doing their best ignoring it. I find it ironic that both those who side with palestinians and those who side with israelis keep complaining about media bias.
Bluntly, israelis are to be blamed for their misery as much as palestinians are to be blamed for their misery. Both sides love killing each others children more than they love growing their own.

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
the bully has no right to cry when his/her victim smacks them right back in the face. No right.
[sarcasm]Exactly, and now that israeli settlers have smacked the bully right back in the face, the bullies have no right to cry.[/sarcasm] +o(
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Keltoi
11-24-2008, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I'm glad it is. Now maybe the US gov'ment can put some pressure on Israel to ensure this kind of stuff doesn't happen again.
I'm not sure what pressure the U.S. could bring that would alter the behavior of Israeli settlers. Or what the Israeli government could do for that matter. Besides punishing them of course, which probably won't happen as I'm sure we all agree.

U.S. influence on Israel is largely overstated. They are like an independent little brother that comes to family meals and nods politely as the old folks tell them what they should do, then go home and do what they want to do anyway. I agree the U.S. should be more aggressive in demanding that Israel make more concessions to achieve a lasting peace deal though. Perhaps blackmail them if necessary. If they want American aid they must do A and B.
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aamirsaab
11-24-2008, 02:44 PM
Not going to get into a debate again, so am minimising the convo to these points.
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
..
But you didnt answer my question. Can you honestly say you know all the ethnicities and sides and who started and did what in those conflicts? Do you care enough about them so that you know who and what they are. Or are you just like the rest of the world, speak nice words for 3rd world when asked but dont really care at all?
As I said: all civilians throughout the history of mankind. No I don't know all their names and ethnicities, but that doesn't mean I don't care. My point was when it comes to this issue it always seems to be one-sided and usually in favour of Israel.

Bluntly, israelis are to be blamed for their misery as much as palestinians are to be blamed for their misery. Both sides love killing each others children more than they love growing their own.
Fine, at least you hold a balanced view point. That's all I am after.

Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm not sure what pressure the U.S. could bring that would alter the behavior of Israeli settlers. Or what the Israeli government could do for that matter. Besides punishing them of course, which probably won't happen as I'm sure we all agree.
Surely though, the US could at least stop the military funding, no?

U.S. influence on Israel is largely overstated. They are like an independent little brother that comes to family meals and nods politely as the old folks tell them what they should do, then go home and do what they want to do anyway.
I see. Didn't know that - it's always been my view that the US is best buddies with Israel, what with it's ridiculous spending on the Israeli military and whatnot.

I agree the U.S. should be more aggressive in demanding that Israel make more concessions to achieve a lasting peace deal though. Perhaps blackmail them if necessary. If they want American aid they must do A and B.
Well, I'd prefer if if they stopped supporting them completely to be honest and at the very least call Israel up on their actions - the US might not have that much influence over Israel, but it definitely has more compared to any other country on the planet. They are quite possibly the only country able to stop the israel and palestinian feud.
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Keltoi
11-25-2008, 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Surely though, the US could at least stop the military funding, no?
They could of course, but the U.S. military partnership with Israel goes back to the Cold War. It is in our best interests for a strong democray to exist in that region, and even more in our interest to have a strong military ally in the region.


Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I see. Didn't know that - it's always been my view that the US is best buddies with Israel, what with it's ridiculous spending on the Israeli military and whatnot.
As I pointed out above, it is in the best interests of the U.S. for Israel to be militarily powerful. Outside of the Palestinian issue, the enemies of Israel are by and large enemies of the United States.


Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Well, I'd prefer if if they stopped supporting them completely to be honest and at the very least call Israel up on their actions - the US might not have that much influence over Israel, but it definitely has more compared to any other country on the planet. They are quite possibly the only country able to stop the israel and palestinian feud.
Stop the feud? I'm not sure about that. Israel has shown restraint in the past when it came to taking suicide and rocket attacks without major retaliation. However, that accomplished nothing. The U.S., which sort of erupted into a violent frenzy after 9-11, cannot tell Israel that they can't retaliate in the face of terrorism. I agree the situation is more complicated than "terrorism vs. Israel", but when a Hamas recruited suicide bomber commits suicide by nailbomb in a crowded grocery store it sort of overshadows any legitimate political grievance.
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Suomipoika
11-25-2008, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
As I said: all civilians throughout the history of mankind. No I don't know all their names and ethnicities, but that doesn't mean I don't care. My point was when it comes to this issue it always seems to be one-sided and usually in favour of Israel.
Actually my point was against your remark how people in general dont give a **** about palestinians and how Israel is supposedly hell-bent destroying them (for whatever reason in your search for balanced view you dont bring up at all how hell-bent quite a few palestinians and their supporters are destroying israel) and how the world doesnt side with victims. And while the world supposedly should care about palestinians, you yourself dont even know who the bullies and victims are in other conflicts.

At the same time, you dont even speak for all civilian victims throughout the history of mankind, even with being a human, israeli victims dont exist for you. With all the bombings and rocket fire, as you said, israeli victims are not being slaughtered, so they do not seem to deserve similar bittersweet love as palestinians do. I can only wonder why not?

Fine, at least you hold a balanced view point. That's all I am after.
So why dont you bring up fair and balanced view point? Because on this forum, the view point is anything but balanced, and you eagerly joined the one side that is already overly represented. Why not speak for the misery of israeli side with as much passion as you speak for misery of palestinian side? Your view point isnt that balanced if you just speak for palestinians, is it?

Personally I hope for balanced view too, I really dont see one here. All I see is Geert Wilders style handpicked propaganda in form of pictures of israeli and palestinian children and attempts to use possible tabus that greatly offend non-muslims like holocaust to further the onesided agenda for palestinians and attempts to justify terrorism or blame it on victim by labelling the possible victims as bullies who deserve it.
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