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جوري
11-26-2008, 11:50 PM
what is with the moral degeneracy trend growing in Europe?


posted: 5 HOURS 58 MINUTES AGO
comments: 858
filed under: Crime News, World News
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(Nov. 25) -- A British man was jailed Tuesday for raping two of his daughters and fathering nine children over 27 years, a case with echoes of Austria's Josef Fritzl.
The two daughters were made pregnant 19 times; there were nine births, five miscarriages and five terminations. Seven of the children are alive but suffer genetic deformities.
The father, who cannot be named for legal reasons banning the identification of his victims and the surviving children, pleaded guilty Tuesday at Sheffield Crown Court, northern England, and was sentenced to serve 25 life sentences to run concurrently.
The judge said the minimum term the 56-year-old rapist should serve in jail should be 19½ years.
South Yorkshire Police Chief Superintendent Simon Torr said, "The victims of these terrible crimes have asked me to state the following: 'His detention in prison brings us only the knowledge that he cannot physically touch us again. The suffering he has caused will continue for many years, and we must now concentrate our thoughts on finding the strength to rebuild our lives.' "

Sheffield, England: On Wednesday, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown vowed to find out how a man from Sheffield, above in 2002, repeatedly raped two daughters over 27 years, impregnated them 19 times and fathered nine children before he was stopped. The man, whose identity is not being released, was sentenced Tuesday to 25 concurrent life sentences.
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Speaking for the police, Torr added, "The main concern ... is for those who have been so badly affected: the victims who have suffered a terrible ordeal. We will continue to offer them our full support to try and help them get on with their lives.
"As far as the sentence goes, we are satisfied that this offender has received the strongest possible punishment for his heinous crimes. Now we need to ensure continuing support for those who have suffered as a result of his actions."
The daughters first told police about their ordeal in June, but the abuse dated to 1981.
It emerged that in 1998 one daughter rang Childline, a charity to help abused kids, and asked for assurances about being able to keep her children if she came forward. When Childline could not make that guarantee, the daughter did nothing more to raise her plight.

The UK's Press Association reported that the rapes began in 1981 with daily attacks and that for long periods, they would be raped up to three times a week, and the assaults would continue through pregnancies. Their only reprieve came after they had just given birth or when they were ill because of the abuse.
If either daughter tried to refuse their father's attacks, they would be punched, kicked and or held to the flames of a gas fire, burning their eyes and arms, PA reported.
Despite visiting hospitals and meeting with social workers over the 27 years of abuse, no investigation was launched into the family.
The case comes in the wake of the death of a baby, known only as Baby P, which has dominated headlines in Britain. The baby endured horrendous torture and died despite being on the local authority's child protection register.
In Austria this year, Josef Fritzl was arrested, accused of keeping his daughter in a basement dungeon and fathering seven children through the rapes.
© 2008 Cable News Network. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
2008-11-26 09:11:25

http://news.aol.com/article/briton-i...9-times/261112
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AntiKarateKid
11-27-2008, 12:06 AM
Its because of there "enlightened" reforms. Im looking at YOU secularism!
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Keltoi
11-27-2008, 12:39 AM
These sorts of abominations happen in every culture, regardless of religious ideology.
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جوري
11-27-2008, 02:00 AM
What I don't understand is how it can go on for that length of time?
Where are the neighbors, the relatives, the health care workers-- etc
have people become so detached and uninvolved that they would miss any cry for help no matter how remote over nearly a three decade span?
19 pregnancies and terminations, no one bothered during these terminations ask for reason? how were these children delivered even, who the father is, especially that some of them have birth defects.. no social workers nothing?

This is beyond belief to me.. it is too fantastic.. one expects this maybe in some remote village isolated from civilization, religions, social norms some anthropological find... not in the 21st century in the so-called civilized world ...

and they want to protect their identities? this man needs to be put to death not protected from tax payers money!
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The_Prince
11-27-2008, 02:37 AM
this is happening somewhere right now as we speak, these 2 men, the austrian, and now the brit are not unique. its happening all over the place, maybe beside u.
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islamirama
11-27-2008, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
These sorts of abominations happen in every culture, regardless of religious ideology.
Not really, only in Europe!


Sick incestuous pedophiles! +o(
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north_malaysian
11-27-2008, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
maybe beside u.
+o(

نعوذ بالله من ذالك
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glo
11-27-2008, 08:07 AM
This is a vile and horrendous story, and it is rocking the nation to the highest political levels - believers and secular people alike!
This is one sick individual, who has caused great suffering to his own family! :cry:

But I find taking this individual case as an indication of 'the moral degeneracy trend growing in Europe' rather far fetched ... :X
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BlissfullyJaded
11-27-2008, 08:08 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by islamirama
Not really, only in Europe!


Sick incestuous pedophiles! +o(
:blind:

Really? Only in Europe? That's only because these cases that have been uncovered happen to be in Europe. That doesn't mean it only happens in Europe. I'm not surprised it was in Europe, but such disturbing things happen elsewhere.

I honestly don't understand how psychotic a father has to be in order to do this to his daughters. :cry:

Skye, maybe they were forced into creating stories to protect their father and nobody could pin anything on him.
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cute123
11-27-2008, 11:19 AM
dangerously horrible
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Sahabiyaat
11-27-2008, 12:09 PM
the fritzl case is disgusting


i watched another documentary about 2 friends kidnapped and imprisoned for 4 yrs in a basement,one was just a child. it was so sad to watch, they managed to send for help after 4 yrs, and were rescued.and the documentary shows them going back to the place they were kept, and they were shaking and crying, because of all the bad memories, and they were brave enough to actually go down into the basement again.
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aamirsaab
11-27-2008, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
...The father, who cannot be named for legal reasons banning the identification of his victims and the surviving children, pleaded guilty Tuesday at Sheffield Crown Court, northern England, and was sentenced to serve 25 life sentences to run concurrently.
The judge said the minimum term the 56-year-old rapist should serve in jail should be 19½ years....
What?! 25 years and a minimum of 19 1/2? Just kill the freak already. Or shove him in gauntanamo bay at least. Why on Earth should this guy be kept alive after that crime?
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youngsister
11-27-2008, 12:56 PM
:sl: ^^ I know i was so suprised that he only 19 years subxnallah!
He should have at least got life in prison and why are they not revealing his identity? silly.
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aamirsaab
11-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by youngsister
:sl: ^^ I know i was so suprised that he only 19 years subxnallah!
He should have at least got life in prison and why are they not revealing his identity? silly.
Probably so that people won't hunt him down and kill him. Though, that sounds bs in light of fitzgerald's case.

I do wonder sometimes; people say sharia law is too harsh but when it comes to crimes like this, the modern world and law system has no answer.
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Questfortruth
11-27-2008, 01:41 PM
People who commit these crimes are those who reject God. This sort of thing happens every where. Wherever there is a person who rejects God.
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Hafswa
11-27-2008, 01:44 PM
+o( there can be no excuse or justification for such abnormal behaviour! this is a curse.
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Muezzin
11-27-2008, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
What?! 25 years and a minimum of 19 1/2? Just kill the freak already. Or shove him in gauntanamo bay at least. Why on Earth should this guy be kept alive after that crime?
Well, at least in prison he'll most likely be subjected to repeated kicks to the gonads.

He should also continue to have to pay to look after the children.

And I don't think this is a question of moral degeneration in Europe or a lack of religious morals. You've got harmful, disgusting perverts in all walks of life, in all continents and all religions. What matters is that their behaviour is condemned and (more importantly) prevented wherever possible.
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Olive
11-27-2008, 04:42 PM
He should serve a life imprisonment for that. Sickening.
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جوري
11-27-2008, 05:09 PM
I believe he should be put to death.. and I am not sure what the jurisprudence stance is on this, but I am sure this is punishable by death-- I think most of you tend to think of this guy as human who can reason and rationalize but I see him as an animal who has no place in society, shouldn't be supported or felt sorry for by society...

People constantly make excuses for degeneracy until it becomes so commonplace...
when it pops here or pops there it loses all shock value because 'hey it happens'

every society has its criminals.. your body has criminals.. your body and the hopeful aim of medicinal therapeutic agents is to decimate the offending agent.. not to coax it or rehabilitate it -- one has to think of the greater good...if it doesn't then you'll succumb to disease, and in this case society will succumb to moral degeneracy
I see no good whatsoever in him being imprisoned for a meager 19 yrs plus having his identity kept secret.. he needs to be humiliated and made an example out of for violating the basic quality of being human!
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Banu_Hashim
11-27-2008, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
What I don't understand is how it can go on for that length of time?
Where are the neighbors, the relatives, the health care workers-- etc
have people become so detached and uninvolved that they would miss any cry for help no matter how remote over nearly a three decade span?
19 pregnancies and terminations, no one bothered during these terminations ask for reason? how were these children delivered even, who the father is, especially that some of them have birth defects.. no social workers nothing?
:sl:

This is the article from BBC News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/7747711.stm

It states that "The father moved the family from village to village in rural locations to keep them isolated and to avoid detection."

But still I also find it hard to believe no one had any idea of what was going on. Or at least if they were suspicious for the daughter's safety... why not report it?
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alcurad
11-27-2008, 05:36 PM
horrible. now perhaps people will begin to see the merit of capital punishment.
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glo
11-27-2008, 08:41 PM
I have worked with other health professional and social workers for a long time, and I think the problem is at least partly that political correctness has swung too far.

Wonderful principles such as clients'/patients' rights and choice and confidentiality, which we all benefit from, fall short when those who are supposed to care for vulnerable people are a) too cruel and vicious to care and b) clever enough to conceal the evidence of their abuse.

Add to that health and social workers who are either too naive too know better or too scared to rock the boat, and legislations which make appropriate action more difficult, and you create the potential for such atrocities.

There is little known about this case so far, but in the case of baby P who died after months of horrendous abuse there is clear evidence of this.
Dr Sabah Al-Zayyat, the pediatrician who was the last person to see baby P only a couple of daysbefore his death, did not examine him properly because he 'seemed cranky' and thereby failed to spot injuries and take appropriate action which may have saved his life. :cry:
Social worker who visited found him covered in chocolate - which had been applied by his mother and her partner to hide bruises. 20 years ago social workers would have had the right and responsibility to clean such a child in order to carry out a proper examination. Today this would be frowned upon because it would potentially go against the families right to choice and privacy ... imsad
In the light of what happened to this child we might all be outraged and criticise the professionals. But chances are they acted according the the system they work in.

The whole work culture needs shifting - and both the health and social services are huge organisations which are difficult to change in a hurry ...
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جوري
11-27-2008, 08:50 PM
In the U.S there is what is called Tarasoff's Law..
Duty to warn/inform and protect.. you should google it!
there is no such a thing as Dr/Pt. confidentiality when clear harm has been done, or if a doctor suspects harm is going to be done.

which again leaves me bewildered, do you not have similar laws in England? or is it simple pure neglect on everyone's part? did the whole family live in a complete bubble?
very hard for me to imagine years, holidays, birthdays, neighbors, social workers, doctors visits and this sort of thing still going on for nearly three decades.. frankly something is extremely fishy about this case... and down right disgusting!
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S1aveofA11ah
11-27-2008, 08:59 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he does 5-10 years and with good behaviour (or some other stupid 'law') is released early and then becomes the new prime minister. Seriously I wouldn't be surprised.

There will never be peace in this world we all - Muslims and Non-Muslims - share until there is first justice. This man has ruined the lives of so many so badly and he gets 19 years in jail!.

I think the Austrian (Fritzl) guy got 15 years!. You've ruined someone's life and you get 15 years?. This is definately part of the reason why these crimes increase in number (and evil) in the future. People are just 'deadend' to the punishments. It is beyond a joke.

The pattern is clear - no one can deny this. Just give it a few years and we will probably hear about a man who rapes his daughter/s and then the grandchildren (or even great grandchildren). Or even 5 year olds killing others - like the Jammie Bulger case but just younger. Just give it a few years - don't be surprised. What a world we live in!.

Oh and to the poster above who suggested putting this guy in Gitmo. I think to stoop to that low level is clearly way, way beyond Islam. Islam calls to peace and justice. It doesn't prescribe torture to any human beings even if they murdered or did what this incestual monster did. It has its prescribed punishments. Gitmo has been doing, in some cases, arguably far worse than this man did to his daughters as this man's daughters did not commit suicide whereas in Gitmo some detainees have committed suicide due to the horrors of torture they underwent. Something drove them to that.

I think the real best thing we can all do (as Muslims) is pray for this man's and his family's guidance and leave the justice to Allah. A former paedophille convereted to Islam recently. The doors are open to all. Make du'a all those who read this as this man needs them.
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Amadeus85
11-27-2008, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
what is with the moral degeneracy trend growing in Europe?

Skye You know well how muslims are hurt everytime when someone blames honour killing on your muslim culture. I think that You shouldnt make same mistake, You are too inteligent not to know that such things happen from Paris to Tokio, from Oslo to Johannesburg.
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Ansariyah
11-27-2008, 09:33 PM
It seriously makes me cringe and sick to my stomach that we have such monsters living amongst us.

I only read the beginning of the article cudnt handle going any further.:cry:
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glo
11-27-2008, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
In the U.S there is what is called Tarasoff's Law..
Duty to warn/inform and protect.. you should google it!
there is no such a thing as Dr/Pt. confidentiality when clear harm has been done, or if a doctor suspects harm is going to be done.
Similar laws exists in the UK too, Skye.

But there is also a fear of litigations if professionals make the wrong decisions. If, for example, a child is removed from a family unfairly, then people are up in arms, the social worker in question get hauled over the coals, the story makes headlines etc, etc.
So health and social workers become cautious and perhaps hesitate to report concerns as soon as they should or could ...

On the other hand, procedures often take a very long time.
In the case of baby P, for example, child protection processes were in place ... but nothing happened quick enough!

I am not making excuses for my colleagues or condone their actions. I am sure mistakes were made!
I am just trying to explain how such thing can be allowed to carry on for so long - sometimes until it is too late.

Like I said, things have to change. Not just legislations, but peoples attitudes too. Hopefully they will ... but for some it is too late! :cry:

Peace
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جوري
11-27-2008, 10:23 PM
Well, there is no fear of litigation here when it comes to that law as a health care professional is protected from liability -- very much like the 'Good Samaritan law-, which states that you are under no obligation to help someone on the street if you are a health care professional, but they would very much like you too, thus if you make a mistake you are not liable the courts throw the law suits out-- unless of course you were very grossly negligent but given that dermatologist and brain surgeons alike must be ACLS/BCLS certified they would like you to at least give life support!

cheers
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Güven
11-27-2008, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I believe he should be put to death.. and I am not sure what the jurisprudence stance is on this, but I am sure this is punishable by death-- I think most of you tend to think of this guy as human who can reason and rationalize but I see him as an animal who has no place in society, shouldn't be supported or felt sorry for by society...
:salamext:

you compare him as an Animal? I think animals are ten times better than this...this..thing!
27 years he ruins the lives of his own daughters and he only gets 25 (19½!)?

27 years = 25 years ? is this even logical :?
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Ansariyah
11-27-2008, 10:52 PM
*sigh*
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_PakistaN_
11-28-2008, 06:32 AM
May Allah stop this violence
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fatima_01
12-02-2008, 07:40 PM
"what is with the moral degeneracy trend growing in Europe?" sis its not just in europe its all over the world. absolutely disgusting
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Whatsthepoint
12-02-2008, 10:19 PM
edit: I get it.
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Musaafirah
12-02-2008, 10:29 PM
I was gonna say, this kind of thing does not happen in Europe alone.
It's disgusting what he's done and yeah the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime.
Also, what about in the case of Dave Pelzer? I know he wasn't abused in that manner, but the fact that his abuse went on for so long? And in America? So please don't say that it's occuring in Europe alone. It's probably that the case are uncovered better here? I don't know. The actions are sick regardless..
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Amadeus85
12-02-2008, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
edit: I get it.
Ho ho and who's back at old trash? :)
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